How did the Joker...? (Possible Spoilers)

[BWDK]

Did Tim just wear make up or did the Joker fill him up this his Smylex poison? Or did he throw him into the vat at the Ace Chemical Plant like Jack Ryder?

[James Harvey]

Next Time put a spoiler warning in the heading. Some people still haven't seen the movie. Anyways The Joker, while he kidnapped Robin, embedded a microchip into Robin's brain with the Joker's DNA on it. When he reached a certain age, the two would begin to "share" the body. Everytime The Joker took control of Robin's body via the microchip, this caused Robin to take on Joker's twisted look.

[The Mad Hatter]

Yes, the title of the post was a big spoiler... I know of several people here who haven't seen ROTJ yet. Losers. :rolleyes: Anyway...

I think you were talking about the young Tim, right? Well, remember, much of the Joker's brainwashing involved "shocks and serums," so presumably at least one of these serums caused his skin to bleach. Imagine trying to hold your sanity against the assaults of a cruel master, and one day waking up to look just like him! That would be a true sanity-snapper. Also notice that Tim's legs are white too, which seems to indicate that the whiteness was all over. Harley never bothered to whiten anything except her face, even when she was in lingere in Mad Love.

But then again, nothing's definate... while I have my hunches, we'll never know for sure.

[BWDK]

Concering the spoiler...OOPS! :D

No I know how the grown Tim transforms (I've seen the movie as well)...Anyway I don't think that Napier's DNA is affected by the accident when I fall into the tank. He just got his skin bleached ect...but his DNA should still be normal.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by BWDK
Anyway I don't think that Napier's DNA is affected by the accident when I fall into the tank. He just got his skin bleached ect...but his DNA should still be normal.

Well, if you want to get technical about it, Joker's DNA must have changed when he fell into the chemical vat. We all shed skin cells everyday of our life. If his skin was just bleached, eventually it would have gone back to its normal color - the bleached skin would have eventually shed away. The fact that the Joker has remained white over his entire lifetime implies that there was some sort of DNA change that occured.

[BWDK]

OK that's one theory but for example if something like acid gets on your skin the result maintains (see Two Face) and Harvey's DNA is not damaged.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by BWDK
OK that's one theory but for example if something like acid gets on your skin the result maintains (see Two Face) and Harvey's DNA is not damaged.

Hmmmm. But that's a matter of scar tissue, rather than skin pigmentation. Anyone out there a biologist? Skin pigmentation is determined (I think) by genetics. I'm not sure of the difference between regular skin and scar tissue - is the genetic make-up of scar tissue the same as that of regular skin? What is it that makes up that difference in texture between scar tissue and regular skin?

[BWDK]

hmmm maybe Micheal Jackson can help us out :D

[Eldermount]

Well, since Marvel copyrighted the "Mutant" idea, DC has explained a lot of their heroes and villains as having a "metagene". I don't think they've ever said if the Joker has a metagene that was activated by the chemical bath, or if it was just them chemicals themselves. But if it was the metagene, that would explain a change in DNA causing the white pigmentation.

[DR. BELCH]

According to my medical dictionary, scar tissue is produced by special skin cells called fibroblasts that make collagen, a tough protein. When severe deep tissue damage occurs, the damaged site becomes a mass of leathery, often discolored, very tough "skin" that is more resilinant than normal flesh but tends to contract with age (meaning poor Harvey Dent isn't going to age well on his left side).
As for Joker, there's no telling what the blazes happened to him, or to The Creeper, in that chemical soup. It's likely it affected his genetic code, though, which means if he and Harley produced children they'd look a lot like their old man...well, more than a normal child anyway, although their mother's normal pigmentation might offset Joker's demonic pallor. As for hair color--well, Father's is emerald green, and Mother's a bottle blonde (cf. the Dice quote in my signature). That could be an interesting mix....

[BWDK]

Let's just make sure that Harley won't loose her virginity :D otherwise we'll get some nasty looking kids :p

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by DickGrayson
Next Time put a spoiler warning in the heading. Some people still haven't seen the movie.

Just exactly how long does a movie have to be out before you don't have to put a spoiler alert when you write about it?

This actually came up on the DVD newsgroup. People were really upset over Fox's box for the Planet of the Apes set, which puts the Statue of Liberty right on the cover. The Statue of Liberty is the surprise ending of the first movie, so this is a MAJOR spoiler for people who haven't seen it. But this movie is like 30 years old. While I can sympathise with them, the ending to the Planet of the Apes has been a target of much parody and satire thru out our culture and on TV, and for somebody to grow up not knowing about it...well, that's like not knowing Rosebud is the sled in Citizen Kane. While I know people have never seen these movies (I have never seen Citizen Kane), these tid bits of information leak out and are talked about in public forums, make it on TV in various clips and in satire and parodies, and it is hard to escape.

While I know ROTJ can't compare to a movie that's been out for 30 years, I think six months or so after the release of it on video is fair game to be able to talk about the ending freely, and to talk about key events in the movie freely without having to be concerned over giving space to spoiler alerts.

In the Sixth Sense, Bruce Willis dies when that kid shoots him.

In Star Wars, Vader is Luke's father.

In the Perfect Storm, everybody dies.

In Armageddon, Bruce Willis sacrifices himself.

Live with it, deal with it. These things are public property and for those who have yet to see these movies, what can I say?

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by BWDK
Let's just make sure that Harley won't loose her virginity :D otherwise we'll get some nasty looking kids :p

Too late! She has grandchildren in ROTJ. Somebody sure got lucky! While rumors abound, I personally think it was ol' Brucey. (Which I postulated in a previous thread, I know). Maybe not, but ol' Harley sure always had a thing for him, and what red blooded man could keep turing THAT down? HmmmmMM! And opposites attract!

Regarding Marvel's copyright of a common word (Mutant). You have to love that, eh? As if they were the first one to come up with the idea of a mutant. Actually, the comic book series First Mutant was the first to use that term (saw something on the comic book not too long ago, but can't find it now) before Marvel dreamed up the X Men. You just have to love that, eh? And thanks to Marvel, nobody can use the word "marvel" in any part of their title, and thanks to Disney, it is against the law to have a character named "Mickey." Ohhh...those lawyers are sure crafty!

[Bud 'n Lou]

I think six months or so after the release of it on video is fair game to be able to talk about the ending freely

Word, Cal. :)

Also, Harley was SO not a virgin. Remember, before she was Harley, she was a har-lot! (sorry, I had to use this extremely cheesy pun). Remember what she did with her professors at the University?

Even AFTER she was Harley...Do you think nothing happened with Mistah J? Please! She was stayin' with him for SOMETHIN'! Also, she got busy with Ivy from time to time.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07

...well, that's like not knowing Rosebud is the sled in Citizen Kane.

What??? Awwww man, you ruined it for me!!!

;)

[BWDK]

lol, it was just a joke I think it's more likely that Talia was a virgin before she met B-Man.:D

[DR. BELCH]

Imagine what Ras would do to the guy who deflowered his daughter without making an honest woman of her. Or even worse--suppose Ras was your father-in-law! [Homer Simpson-esque scream]
I've heard Joker does have a son named Arkady by a hooker or showgirl or some d*** thing...Lord, I hope he takes after his mother. I suppose it's too much to hope that the chemicals in Ace's vats not only disfigured The Joker but rendered the s.o.b. impotent....
Harley pregnant by Bruce? I don't know if he'd consider bagging a ditz like that...then again, if she squared up or he got really drunk, magic can happen....

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
Harley pregnant by Bruce? I don't know if he'd consider bagging a ditz like that...then again, if she squared up or he got really drunk, magic can happen....

All I'm saying is that her costume is hanging in his batcave. He had to have gotten it from her some how. After her fall, and she obviously survived (HOW????), who knows? She may have squared up quite a bit!

[James Harvey]

Harley could've had more than one costume. As for her fall? She probably landed on a conveniently placed hay wagon.
:)

[killercroc]

Originally posted by Bud 'n Lou


Word, Cal. :)


Also, she got busy with Ivy from time to time.

I have to thank you for putting that image in my head. Here's one for you, what if Ten got in a time machine and came back to hook up with Harley? I better stop now before I get myself banned!

[James Harvey]

This post is morphing into that 'R' rated territory. :)

[Bird Boy]

I think sombody should make a post entitled "We'll start on this subject, but we'll switch over throughout the thread" thread, because don't most long ones go that way? lol

-BB

[James Harvey]

All topics morph and change as they go along, but most find their way back to it's original path somehow. Give it time and somehow we'll get back on topic in this thread.

[Inque]

back on thread! the skin discoloration has to be because of the dna, or then how could tim drake have bleached skin ONLY when he "transforms" into the joker? If it was part of his dna, he would have bleached skin all the time (unless the chip changes your dna all the time, which is pretty hard)

[James Harvey]

It's possible the chip effects the cells. There could be a trigger in the chip that releases a die in the skin cells, causing them to change colors. It would be hard for one small chip to do all of that.

[Nightwing]

Originally posted by Inque
back on thread! the skin discoloration has to be because of the dna, or then how could tim drake have bleached skin ONLY when he "transforms" into the joker?

That's the problem. The proof is there, it's just that I don't think an accident changing one's DNA is scientifically possible. But the proof is in the pudding! Er uh, Tim's Joker that is.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by DickGrayson
Harley could've had more than one costume. As for her fall? She probably landed on a conveniently placed hay wagon.
:)

So how did Bruce get that other costume if it didn't come off of Harley? Steal it? That fetishist! And he probably has her stolen panties on display in his bedroom!

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07


So how did Bruce get that other costume if it didn't come off of Harley? Steal it? That fetishist! And he probably has her stolen panties on display in his bedroom!

I know you're joking, but I just wanted to comment anyway - there are actually lots of ways that he could have gotten it. For example, maybe when she finally reformed, she gave the costume to him as a farewell/rememberence/proof of her true reform.

[BWDK]

Well after that night in Arkham they never saw her again, I think Bruce has just a replica.

[James Harvey]

She still coulda fallen on that conveniently placed hay wagon in earth's crevice. :)

But it likely is a replica. Which would expalin the intact Scarface puppet.

[BWDK]

underneath that replica Harley costume is probably a rubber doll :D Old men want fun as well :D

[James]

back on thread! the skin discoloration has to be because of the dna, or then how could tim drake have bleached skin ONLY when he "transforms" into the joker? If it was part of his dna, he would have bleached skin all the time (unless the chip changes your dna all the time, which is pretty hard)


It seems to me, that the DNA injection would alter Tim physically to give him the base attributes. The most likely suggestion for the skin, is that the Joker had already manipultated a sample of his DNA BEFORE injecting it into Tim.

Afterall, Joker rarely acknowledges his past existence prior to the 'accident' with the chemicals - it would seem quite likely that he would alter his DNA sample to be 'pure' Joker (eg; as if the Joker had been a natural born rather than the bi-product of a chemical accident and an insane mind).

BTW, on the subject of spoilers, if the item is in the vein of the forum (eg; Batman) and involves some hidden aspect to the item, I think it's only polite to mark it spoiler, or at least what the item is (this thread IMO should have been labelled ROTJ and in the BBeyond section). This way those who haven't seen the film - irrelevant to whether we think they should or shouldn't have - have the choice to read it or not.

I think Dick was correct in pointing out BWDK slip up (not wanting to point fingers BWDK!). I just think spoilers are something we should all be considerate of. IMO.

Being in the UK, I'm being very weary of third series spoilers as it hasn't aired over here yet!

[Toddman]

I've wondered about that Scarface dummy in the Batman Beyond cave myself. The last we saw of the Ventriloquist in TNBA, Scarface was shredded up by a giant fan (I think it was a fan). The dummy in the cave could be a replica, but it appears to have bullet holes in it. So either Bruce grabbed the original Scarface from the end of the BTAS episode "Read My Lips" and didn't bother to put it on display until much later, or there is another untold tale about Arnold Wesker.

How's THAT for off-topic?

Toddman

[BWDK]

I guess they just want to make the younger viewers know that IT'S a Batman show, that's probably the only reason why they put up all that stuff.

If I would be Bruce I wouldn't want to remember the entire gallery of murderers and psychos.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by SJJ

I think Dick was correct in pointing out BWDK slip up (not wanting to point fingers BWDK!). I just think spoilers are something we should all be considerate of. IMO.

Being in the UK, I'm being very weary of third series spoilers as it hasn't aired over here yet!

I don't believe leaving out the spoiler alert was intentional, and of course, I argued whether it was necessary at all. I still believe it isn't necessary. And while you may live in the UK and may not get to see all that we can right away, that doesn't make me a total ignoramus to your plight. I don't have HBO and there are two series that air on there that I currently like, Sex in the City and the Sopranos. I don't have HBO, however, so that means I have to wait for the box set DVD releases of these shows to enjoy them. And while the majority of the posters who visit these boards have already enjoyed season three, I am still waiting on season two to be released.

Now, I don't expect in any stretch of my imagination that ANYBODY should put a spoiler alert before talking about that show. It is out there right now for the majority of the fans to see, and if I don't want to know the spoilers for seasons I have yet to see, I don't have to read it. And if you are offended by spoilers in a thread about a movie you haven't seen, if you are reading it, YOU know yourself that you haven't seen it and you know you are taking a chance that somethings might be spoiled for you. Instead of expecting the majority to post spoiler alerts for the minority who have yet to see it, do what I do when it comes to the Sopranos and Sex in the City: DON'T READ ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT IT! Or at least, very, very little. It just makes sense to me.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Toddman
I've wondered about that Scarface dummy in the Batman Beyond cave myself. The last we saw of the Ventriloquist in TNBA, Scarface was shredded up by a giant fan (I think it was a fan). The dummy in the cave could be a replica, but it appears to have bullet holes in it. So either Bruce grabbed the original Scarface from the end of the BTAS episode "Read My Lips" and didn't bother to put it on display until much later, or there is another untold tale about Arnold Wesker.

How's THAT for off-topic?

Toddman

Ahhh...the untold tales (and I personally believe this is one of them!) If only the comic book had continued....

[James]

originally posted by calhoun07
And if you are offended by spoilers in a thread about a movie you haven't seen, if you are reading it, YOU know yourself that you haven't seen it and you know you are taking a chance that somethings might be spoiled for you. Instead of expecting the majority to post spoiler alerts for the minority who have yet to see it, do what I do when it comes to the Sopranos and Sex in the City: DON'T READ ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT IT! Or at least, very, very little. It just makes sense to me.

Firstly, don't get me wrong, I didn't think BWDK did it on purpose. We all make errors, I wanted to highlight the importance of being careful.
Secondly, I agree with all you've said in the above. I'm ploughing my way through Final Fantasy 9 at the moment. I loved FF7 and regularly post on the FF7 forum, however I will never go near the FF9 forum just in case I lumber into a spoiler. I'll wait until I finished the game.

My grumble here, was that the topic wasn't even labeled ROTJ (How Did The Joker.....? could refer to anything Joker related) and was in the JL board rather than the Batman Beyond. I think it would be easy to trip over this spoiler with best intentions of avoiding any on ROTJ.

Once again, I'm not trying to point fingers and be picky, it's just that people seemed to be saying well, since ROTJ came out last year, you've got to expect spoilers to be in the post and if you haven'y seen it - tough. I'm saying, if label the post correctly and keep them to the right area, the people who haven't seen the film can people bumble in at their own risk!! :p

[Clayface]

Originally posted by SJJ

My grumble here, was that the topic wasn't even labeled ROTJ (How Did The Joker.....? could refer to anything Joker related) and was in the JL board rather than the Batman Beyond.



Actaully, the title of the post is the moderators' doing. The original title was something like "How did the Joker turn Tim into JJ". So, it was sort of in a way labeled a little more specifically. It was the mods that relabelled it to "How did the Joker..." But, the placement of the thread was poorly chosen, as you've said. It should have been put into the BB board.

[BWDK]

No it's on the right board, as we're talking about a TNBA flashback scene.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by BWDK
No it's on the right board, as we're talking about a TNBA flashback scene.

The scene came from ROTJ - a BB movie. The flashback scenes in ROTJ are not necessarily part of the BTAS continuity. They are considered part of the BB continuity. Since the scenes came from a BB movie, and are part of BB continuity, this should have been placed on the BB board.

[James Harvey]

Ah...this is one reason why I can't wait until November to do the board switchover. Little problems like this. Is it Batman Beyond? Is it Batman/Superman? While not everyone agrees on the board chang-over, I think it will be approporiate. As for the title, I agree with SJJ's comment on how this was first and foremost a Joker post, and so it'd be easy to stumble onto something you didn't want. As for spoilers, I agree with calhoun07, being that if you haven't seen it, then why read the post? Spoilers are put up for safe measures, for people who LIKE spoilers or just want to know what happens without seeing it. Believe it or not, I know of a few friends who still haven't seen ROTJ, either holding out to buy the DVD (which seems to get expensiver and expensiver) or the unedited who dn't want to stumble onto anything.

Tell me that all made sense...:)