How much Influence did Brainiac have over Luthor all these years?

[DerekPowers]

Hey people. Ive been meaning to raise this question ever since the Cadmus arc wrapped up.

One of the things i didnt care for in the final (and there were quite a few things that didnt sit quite right with me) was the idea that Brainiac had been manipulating Lex since the STAS episode "Ghost in the Machine". Imo, it kind of cheapened Lex's character and his development over the years, which spanned 3 shows.

I think its a little vague, because while he does say he had been "subtley influencing his actions", it's also made clear that Luthor does have a mind of his own, like when he and Brainiac talked and stuff, and Lex even manages to convince Brainiac to go along w/ his plan. So obviously it's not like a Starro situation, but then what exactly is it?\

Did Brainiac influence Lex in "Legacy"? Was his involvement in "World's Finest" partly due to Brainiac's interfearence?

What about in JL? Did he have a hand in turning Lex into a full-fledged Supervillian? What about the Kryptonite poisoning? I know that from interviews and press releases we've read back during JL's first season, that the Kryptonite was suppose to have affected Lex's mind as well as his body (although strangely enough i dont think they ever say that outright on the show, which maybe they should have), well, was that Brainiac?

And in JLU, was it Brainiac who influences Lex to get involved with Cadmus? What about him running for president? What about his decision to fire the JL's reverse fusion gun?

The biggest question in my mind is wheter or not it was Brainiac who put the idea in Lex's head to build himself an Android body? Seems THAT would be likely, since Brainiac wanted that. So how much of what Lex says at the end of "Panic in the Sky" is Brainiac? For example, why would Lex want to install himself into an Amazo body if he wasnt dying anymore? What about what he says to Batman, about killing Superman and saving the world from the menace of the JL? That kind of "crazy talk" seems like it could have been partly Brainiac, inorder to really motivate Lex to install himself into the android.

I think the only thing we know for sure is that Brainiac cured Lex's cancer and gave him super strength, but if he influenced Lex inorder to have them "arrive at that moment", then it must have been much more.

Do you guys think this cheapens Luthor's character? To know that all his evil deeds may not have been completely of his own doing? Especially his dive off the deep end at the end of last season, that to me seems like Brainiac may have had a hand in it, but again, we really dont know, and if he did, imo, it cheapens Luthor's character, actions, and plan.

Plus, i mean, are we really suppose to think Brainiac is completely gone from Luthor's body? I really am excited to see if some of these issues are raised in the season premire, like if Luthor is still kind of mad? again, i can not recall any line in either JL or JLU where they say the kryptonite also affected his mind. We can only assume that it did because of the extreme actions Luthor was willing to take through the corse of the 2 series, and by the Cadmus finale, he really was kind of crazy, right? His speech to Batman in PITS alone makes me think that.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

[bat313]

ALot of very good points and a few things that i had been wondering about as well. I personally think Braniac was dorment inside lex through the end of JL season 2 and into season 3. I think Lex, on his own will, got involved with Cadmus, as he has b4 with the governemnt, and Braniac decided this was the perfect time to use Lex and activate himself.

As for pieces of Braniac still being inside Lex, i thought it was kinda an easy way out that Braniac was only a "shell" that flash could rip off lex. I thought the whole point of them merging was that they would be one, and have one mind and body, not a human body with a candy coated brainiac outside.

I'm curious to see what others have to think about this topic.

[Alex Weitzman]

I think it falls under the category of "influence" that Grodd had on the League in Secret Society. Brainiac may have been influencing Lex towards certain goals, but his influence was not a matter of commands, but rather pulling out the stops that would typically cause Luthor to reconsider some of his more dastardly desires. I think everything that Luthor says in Panic in the Sky is distinctly Luthor-esque - after all, did you hear all that and honestly think that these were things that Luthor would never say? That's why Brainiac was a surprise, after all.

Being a villain, setting up Superman to fall, and so forth in grander qualities...these are not things that are removed from Lex Luthor. There were just reasons in the past for Luthor to hold back on acting on such impulses. Brainiac let the impulses fire on their own, and guided them towards something that would benefit him.

[Furious Nick]

I still think that Braniac's influence was pretty minor up until he bust out of his chest in "Divided We Fall." So IMHO I think that Lex is still a jerk. He hated Supes way before Braniac took him hostage in S:TAS. I look at the JLU developments as just being a nod to continuity, and nothing more. If Braniac had major control over Luthor then why would he waste time showing up at Supes Fo-Funeral in "Hereafter?" A machine, ie Brainiac, would not induldge in such behavior.

That is my story and I am sticking with it!

*Fury signs off, Kicks up feet and watches bootlegged JL Dvd season set to confirm suspicions.

[Sirkenz17]

I think Brainiac's influence over Luthor was little more than a little voice in the back in of his head that second guessed him.

[EJill34]

The line "steadily growing in strength" pretty much seals the deal for me. While he might have had some very minor influences on Luthor during the early days of his inhabitance, I don't think he really got going until "The Return."

[Fone Bone]

You know how Lex Luthor set up his secret base underneath a Barbershop? That was ALL Brainiac.:anime: :D

[Style]

I say it goes back farther than "The Return." After all, Luthor and Brainiac first saw the Amazo plans, and Brainiac was like "Oh Snap! I needs me one of those!" But, they couldn't begin construction in prison, so Brainiac was out to get Lex back in good standing. So, when Superman was like "We need help with these Justice Lords guys," While Lex on his own would have said "Up Yours!" Brainiac was like "Oh, sure, Superman. Whatever you need." Allowing Lex to be pardoned so he could get access to the government tech neccissary to build Amazo 2.

[Casey Mack]

I guess we know why Lex seemd to be smarter in JL and JLU. I mean the power disrupter im sure was Brainiacs doing, and implanting the needed info into Lex's Brain.I would assume Lex is not as smart as he was when Brainiac was giving him ideas. Nothing super genuis evil Lex has done..was on his own...go figure:anime: . Superman should of fried his brain, the Justice Lords were right people like him are to dangerous to be kept alive or with a brain. Now we get the same old routine..Lex escapes prison yet again, and now the League and superman must stop him....sounds familiar.

[Style]

I guess we know why Lex seemd to be smarter in JL and JLU. I mean the power disrupter im sure was Brainiacs doing, and implanting the needed info into Lex's Brain.I would assume Lex is not as smart as he was when Brainiac was giving him ideas. Nothing super genuis evil Lex has done..was on his own...go figure:anime: . Superman should of fried his brain, the Justice Lords were right people like him are to dangerous to be kept alive or with a brain. Now we get the same old routine..Lex escapes prison yet again, and now the League and superman must stop him....sounds familiar. Nope, I don't like those. No passing off Lex's smarts as Brainiac's doing. Lex has always been the evil genius type. Evil Buisness man and president are far newer devolopments. Lex is that smart on his own!

[Casey Mack]

Nope, I don't like those. No passing off Lex's smarts as Brainiac's doing. Lex has always been the evil genius type. Evil Buisness man and president are far newer devolopments. Lex is that smart on his own!
since he was taken way back in "Ghost in the machine" im sure he has got many ideas from Braniac including that Power disrpter..which is inhumanly possible to build...especially in a prison.

[Style]

since he was taken way back in "Ghost in the machine" im sure he has got many ideas from Braniac including that Power disrpter..which is inhumanly possible to build...especially in a prison.1.) Brainiac took over Lex because Lex was so smart in the first place. Go back and watch "Ghost in the Machine" again. 2.) He didn't build the disruptor in prison. Remember, he was about to fire it a Hawkgirl and Batman when Flash ran up and disarmed it at the begginning of the episode.

[Casey Mack]

1.) Brainiac took over Lex because Lex was so smart in the first place. Go back and watch "Ghost in the Machine" again. 2.) He didn't build the disruptor in prison. Remember, he was about to fire it a Hawkgirl and Batman when Flash ran up and disarmed it at the begginning of the episode.
yes lex is very smart thats obvious, but with Brainiac his intellgence was increased. I mean, he never built that disrupter in STAS even before Brainiac got him. I man lex had unlimted money and resources before, and he could not make his disrupter then lol? Lex is very smart, but building things like that...seems like he had some inside help. But I still think superman should of fried him..could of saved alot of lives and trouble.

[DerekPowers]

Excellent points by all. Yes, GMahler, the "steadily growing in strength" line is a definate clue, something i didnt think of. I guess then that it's likely his influence on Lex during the STAS was very small.

I think it falls under the category of "influence" that Grodd had on the League in Secret Society. Brainiac may have been influencing Lex towards certain goals, but his influence was not a matter of commands, but rather pulling out the stops that would typically cause Luthor to reconsider some of his more dastardly desires. I think everything that Luthor says in Panic in the Sky is distinctly Luthor-esque - after all, did you hear all that and honestly think that these were things that Luthor would never say? That's why Brainiac was a surprise, after all.

Being a villain, setting up Superman to fall, and so forth in grander qualities...these are not things that are removed from Lex Luthor. There were just reasons in the past for Luthor to hold back on acting on such impulses. Brainiac let the impulses fire on their own, and guided them towards something that would benefit him.
See, the thing about all that is I always thought it was the Kryptonite poisioning that made him act on his worst impulses. That he was slowly going mad, and hence, his schemes became more 'supervillianish' and he became more and more fixated on destroying Superman and the JL.

Style 92, i think you raise great points about Brainiac perhaps trying to get Lex back into good standings, BUT, i think Lex would have wanted that anyway. Who wants to rot away in prision?

On a slight side note, its interesting and perhaps a mistake that Batman says Lex saw the Amazo blueprints when The Atom was helping him in "the Return". I'm almost 100% sure that Lex got a look at the blueprints in "Tabula Rasa". So maybe thats when Brainiac got the bright idea to install himself into the android body.

Also, couldnt Lex say to the authorities that he wasnt responsible for his actions at the end of last season, saying he was under the influence and control of an alien robot? seems like a reasonable arguement.

And if I were Bruce i'd be a bit worried. Seems Brainiac is more resilient than we thought. After all, he's been in both the Wayne Industries computer systems AND Bruce's body.

good arguements and theories everyone. Its helping put my mind at ease. The idea of Lex's character being cheapened and reduced to a host body for Brainiac really bugs me, maybe too much. So all these great points are helping me come to terms with it :p . peace.

[Alex Weitzman]

See, the thing about all that is I always thought it was the Kryptonite poisioning that made him act on his worst impulses. That he was slowly going mad, and hence, his schemes became more 'supervillianish' and he became more and more fixated on destroying Superman and the JL.
There's no reason that they should be mutually exclusive. Look at it this way: Brainiac's influence for Lex to do things he normally wouldn't (for instance, carelessness in revealing the names of his smugglers in the beginning of Injustice for All?) result in some effects. Then the kryptonite poisoning hits. Lex could have had a sadder, resigned-to-his-fate reaction to his cancer. Facing your mortality suddenly can make even the most powerful person become humble. But, for some reason, Lex's reaction is one of anger, towards Superman in particular. There's "reason" behind his anger, but might not it have been something that the previous Lex might have bottled up, or even dismissed? Instead, Lex lets that feeling come to the forefront, probably because Brainiac is subtly guiding Lex's baser emotions to the surface.

Thusly, his poisoning and Brainiac would be responsible for his resultant actions.

[DerekPowers]

There's no reason that they should be mutually exclusive. Look at it this way: Brainiac's influence for Lex to do things he normally wouldn't (for instance, carelessness in revealing the names of his smugglers in the beginning of Injustice for All?) result in some effects. Then the kryptonite poisoning hits. Lex could have had a sadder, resigned-to-his-fate reaction to his cancer. Facing your mortality suddenly can make even the most powerful person become humble. But, for some reason, Lex's reaction is one of anger, towards Superman in particular. There's "reason" behind his anger, but might not it have been something that the previous Lex might have bottled up, or even dismissed? Instead, Lex lets that feeling come to the forefront, probably because Brainiac is subtly guiding Lex's baser emotions to the surface.

Thusly, his poisoning and Brainiac would be responsible for his resultant actions.
Thats some good thinking. I can see that.

Could Brainiac's presence in Lex's body also have increased his chances of getting cancer from the Kryptonite? Brainiac is a kryptonian, sort of, so maybe Lex was more vulnerable to Kryptonite than normal people. hmmm.. peace.

[Ian]

Apparently, not enough to stop Lex from acting stupidly in Injustice for All, and apparently not enough to stop Lex's cancer before, you know, the bald one noticed he even had it and proceeded to act with even more stupidity.

This sounds snarky but it isn’t.

[90'sCartoonMan]

The line "steadily growing in strength" pretty much seals the deal for me. While he might have had some very minor influences on Luthor during the early days of his inhabitance, I don't think he really got going until "The Return."
I feel like there can only be one "Brainiac Prime". Okay, granted, I haven't watched ANY old Brainiac episodes since I saw "Divided We Fall" (I should probably get around to that), but I feel like Brainiac had no influnece over Lex while "Brainiac Prime" was scheming in "Knight Time", "A League of Their Own", and finally "Twilight". After "Twilight", Brainiac Prime wirelessly sent his original consciousness into whatever he left in Lex.

Thus Brainiac's influence over Luthor didn't really begin until "A Better World" (was that Lex's next appearance after "Twilight"?). However, I think the idea to run for president was all Luthor. Brainiac let him do that, not influencing him, until they came across AMAZO in "The Return". AMAZO was a more advanced machine than Brainiac, so Brainiac decided to become like him). The real Lex Luthor wanted to run for president, and it was all him in "Clash", but secretly Brainiac was building the android body, only acting to save Luthor when he had to (it was all Luthor who talked to AMAZO, but Brainiac had to save him from The Question). So then by the time the android was being ready to be built, Brainiac was in the driver's seat, dismissing the whole president thing (something only Luthor was interested in), and then about to separate himself when Batman, Waller, and the League interfered.

Wait, was "Twilight" before or after "Tabula Rasa"? Hm...maybe my theory needs some revising...

Could Brainiac's presence in Lex's body also have increased his chances of getting cancer from the Kryptonite? Brainiac is a kryptonian, sort of, so maybe Lex was more vulnerable to Kryptonite than normal people. hmmm.. peace.
Hm, maybe that's why Batman never gets affected by it (then again, does Batman keep his kryptonite always encased in lead whereas Lex didn't?)

[Anwar]

I think Tabula Rosa was a Season 2 episode, so it would be after Twilight.

[Furious Nick]

I think Tabula Rosa was a Season 2 episode, so it would be after Twilight.
Tabula Rosa was in fact part of Season 2, and it did follow Twilight.

[dlb]

good arguements and theories everyone. Its helping put my mind at ease. The idea of Lex's character being cheapened and reduced to a host body for Brainiac really bugs me, maybe too much. You needn't feel that way. Brainiac may have been subtly (that's the key word here) influencing Luthor's actions, but said actions were classic Luthor and were perfectly in line with his actual ambitions, and thus Luthor would not need much prodding from any source (internal or external) to carry them out. Remember that after Brainiac was revealed in "Divided we Fall" Luthor didn't behave as one released from mental control, nor did he renouce the actions he had carried out in his scheme to destroy the League. Rather he took advantage of Brainiac's presence in his body to create another way of reaching his (another key word), goals of power, ultimate knowledge, and immortality that he had been trying to achieve through the AMAZO android. Brainiac may have helped push Luthor along, but in the end the path they went down was not one that Luthor needed much pushing to take.

Also, I don't see the Brainiac revelation as indicating that it had been controling Luthor since "Ghosts in the Machine," or even being a great influence on Luthor until the JLU years. My take on Brainiac's plan for Luthor is that the implanting of its program inside Luthor was initially a fail safe measure to insure that someday it could succeed in downloading all the information on earth; or, if worst came to worst, there would be some way for it to ultimatly survive. Worst then came to worst in "Twilight" when the League destroyed Brainiac's central core, and severly weakend its capabilities. Following this event the long dormant program in Luthor was reactivated and kicked in high gear to facilitate its ressurection. But, it found that Luthor's actions in the intervening years (contracting cancer, and becoming an active super villian) had made its host body much more dangerous than it had previously been. Thus it took measure to ensure its host's health and safty until it could find a better one, thus the cancer cure and super strength. It steadly grew in strength awaiting its opportunity to usurp Luthor's entry into the AMAZO android, but was forced to reveal itself when the intervention of the League and Mrs. Waller would have set back its plans indefinatly if it remained hidden in Luthor.

Anyway, that's just my take I'm sure others have their own.

[DerekPowers]

Thanks everyone for the great responses.

90s cartoon man and dlb, really great points. It really is helping me not dislike that element of the story. What you both say sounds good to me.

Anyway, i'm surprised that not more people were bugged by this. Well, i think it's good we addressed it, and this thread is good for people to read if they did kind of think that was just, eh. you know.

anyway, i'm glad we discussed this before tonights premire!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D