Toon Zone Talkback - "Koi Kaze Vol.3:" Salvation in Destruction

[Duke]

This is the talkback thread for "Koi Kaze Vol.3:" Salvation in Destruction (http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=5722).

Is there anyone but Karl that doesn't hate this series? I'm actually getting interested in watching this one...

No couple is complete without the splash!

http://news.toonzone.net/images/2005-09/splash-koi3.jpg

[Juu-kuchi]

It's not that I don't like it. I just find myself with much trepidation on trying to even get into it.

[FlyByNite77]

animeondvd had a review of the 3rd volume and had spoilers in it and made me glad I didn't watch to be honest
Because no matter how well-scripted it may be, I really don't want to watch a show where a guy in his 20's HAVING SEX with his teenage blood sister is considered anywhere near a happy ending

[RogueMartian]

The debate about koi kaze is the same with every dvd.

[Sandoz]

Is there anyone but Karl that doesn't hate this series? I'm actually getting interested in watching this one...I like Koi Kaze quite a bit, actually. I'd even put it on my Top 10 list. I recommend it, but a person should really know what they're getting into when they check it out.


It's not that I don't like it. I just find myself with much trepidation on trying to even get into it.For anyone interested in Koi Kaze but turned off by the physical aspect of the relationship, I really, really recommend the manga. (Translations of which can be...found...online.) Not only is it longer and more in-depth (like most mangas with anime adaptations are), there is absolutely no sex between the siblings. Nada. None.

[Keldran]

Well I certainly don't hate the series, the atmosphere is very much to my liking and there are a lot of things that are just done right.

However.

Watching each episode is like watching a frame of a trainwreck you know is coming. You can look at each frame and think "ooh, that's a nice train, look at how well maintained engine is, and the engineer seems like a stand-up guy" but you're still watching the prelude to a trainwreck. Some people can watch a trainwreck but it makes me uneasy. So it's one of those different strokes situations, where I'm turned off but others could find it completely enjoyable.

[Chad Bonin]

I really hate that I really like this series.

And yes, "score for ben 96/100"

[Karl Olson]

I really hate that I really like this series.

And yes, "score for ben 96/100"

Yeah, the editor on that one should have nixed that bit out. Shoulda put not for print by it.

And I'm glad my Catcher in the Rye quote (another thing I love a lot of people hate, how perfect) made it past the editor in the review.

And it's not necessarily a straight up happy-ending nor a sad-ending, which is oddly authentic and realistic. Rarely is a situation win/win or lose/lose. Yeah, Koshiro should be able to get his stuff together now that he's admitted how screwed up he is to his very core (note that in the last episode, he drinks the cup of mud-water the little girl in the park gives him, a metaphor for the recognition his own filth and issues and his amends for not doing the same thing for Nanoka when she was a child.) But it came at an immensely high cost, though one that in the context of the metaphors of the TV series (the manga's a different beast all together,) a perhaps necessary one (again, in the last episode, the fact they could only make the ferris wheel - a metaphor for life and living - move a tiny bit by praying, and that really to make it work, some external action would have to be taken, and given that Nanoka even says that Ferris Wheels aren't fun unless they are moving, that comes together to suggest that as damnable as the offense is, no change would have been affected with out said actions. Prayers - hopes to change only through thought and self-determination alone, atleast in the context of this series - wouldn't have worked, atleast for the people involved.) Like I said, it's not a clear ending. Life doesn't often have those though, so it's nice to see that handled authentically and intelligently.

Meanwhile, The fact I can start to break Koi Kaze down with that kind of analysis - metaphors, implications, etc - means it's perhaps not unlike Catcher in the Rye. Sometimes you gotta reach for the golden ring, even if you might fall off the horse. Sorry, I don't have the book on hand, so I can't give you the exact quote. I mean, I can see a lot of Holden in Koshiro - both self-centered, awkward young men who can not find their place in the world. The difference I think Koshiro's learned his lesson better than Holden. Koshiro knows he's no catcher in the rye. Maybe things are a bit clearer than I thought.

Oh, btw, the whole Nanoka walking home with dirt on her clothes? Totally a metaphor for her acceptance and internal change as well. Very evocative of the events in One Flew of Over the Cuckoo's Nest that may have turned McMurphy into the man he was in the book, namely throwing the dress of the girl who deflowered him up on a tree. Well, Nanoka's case, it's tantamount to the McMurphy's girl walking home sans-dress, but I think I've got the point made.

Maybe Koi Kaze just appeals to over-intellectual types with a tendency towards being cloyingly verbose and circuitous.

[GWOtaku]

posted by Duke:

Is there anyone but Karl that doesn't hate this series? I'm actually getting interested in watching this one... Its a niche series among niche series, but it has its supporters.

Personally, my opinion is unchanged from when he second volume was reviewed. The message and point of the series is...lets say questionable to begin with. Its made all the worse by the fact that it relies upon its ethical dilemna to work, which itself is a hopelessy flawed and contrived contrapation making out the protagonist, Koshiro, to be a sympathetic character (he isn't) forced to choose between a stagnant, hopeless fate and admitted immoral behavior that will somehow lead to to self-empowerment and happiness. This limited and oversimplified choice of evils is an utterly unrealistic affair, which is a problem when the supposed strength of this series is its realism and intense drama. It doesn't work unless you take the protagonist's ethical dilemna as legitimate at face value, which you cannot without chucking logic and common sense out the window. Lest we make the mistake that at least Koshiro's choice is difficult and ambiguous, the reality is the series never gives him a choice. In the end incest is supposedly the only way he can deal with his emotions, supposedly only *after* that can he let go and move on with his life whereas before we're asked to accept that he couldn't. Flawed, unrealistic scenario, a fake dilemna...however good the execution may be the entire thing leads up to nothing but a justification and an excuse. There's nothing deep or profound about it, unless "listen to your ID in the end and everything will be fine" counts as a meaningful message.

But hey, if you can divorce reality and reason from this and you think you can unquestionably accept it on its own terms, then it might work for you and I'm sure all the allegorical things Karl talks about take on some meaning. It is something I couldn't possibly stomach doing, though. Just don't make the mistake of believing that Koi Kaze is a slice-of-life morality play grounded in realism, because it isn't.

[Karl Olson]

Ah, but great literature (which is what I feel Koi Kaze is playing at, if only because it's using visual metaphor in the same fashion I've seen a lot of pieces of "great literature" use that type of information dissemination) rarely deals with thing on terms of realistic or atleast common morality. Death of a Salesman arguably has the same morality in play; Willy Loman thinks he's got to make an unforgiveable action, suicide, to affect change in his life. Why? Cause he can't stomach the alternative. Koshiro thinks he's got to make an unforgivable action, incest, to affect change in his life (only difference Koshiro survives his act and might just maybe be able to learn something out the other side of it.) Why? Cause he can't stomach the alternative. What's that boil down to? The classic existentialist question, oddly enough poised best years before the term existentialist was coined:

To be or not to be?

Whether 'tis nobler for Koshiro to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
(Let his impulses and instinct overwhelm him and live with the consequences)
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
(Fight his impulses until it crushes him)

though I suppose it can be cast conversely as

Whether 'tis nobler for Koshiro to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
(Take on the burden of loneliness and stagnation work through it)
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
(Take the easy way out and bed his sister)

Again, like I've said though maybe it'll be slightly clearer, it's fun when you put it in own sandbox, but it's useless when it comes to lessons for real life (outside of maybe as "Carpe Diem before your life gets so darn screwed up that you're Koshiro.") It's got a realism in it's overall outcome (cause it is ambigious in that outcome of whether something's been gained or lost or what,) but the actions that get there are not positive. It's a fall to the very bottom of a dark ravine that puts forth the possibility of the rebirth. In a sense, perhaps I'm looking for the silver lining, and really, the little bits of acceptance and recognition and metaphor suggest growth, suggest that maybe that though they've committed a grevious action they can never be forgiven of, they've learned from the experience. Perhaps their is a silver lining to the Category 5 Hurricane that is their life. However, it can clearly be casted as a tragedy because it's almost Icarian - Koshiro demanded too much of life, flew to high, and fell to the ground over the course of 12 episodes, with impact being relations with Nanoka. His dreams are a nightmare, and he's got a love he can never fulfill. Big winner right there. Would have been better off as some shabby lonely dude in his apartment, right? At that point, he might as well be dead.

Ha, that brings me to another stream-of-conciousness point, and that's Koi Kaze vis a vis the classical Romantic movement tale, the Sorrows of Young Werther by Goethe. In a sense, Koshiro shoots himself in the head just like Werther. He gives up trying to live life inspite of the suffering and lack of clear progress involved in such a life as his, and he caps himself. On the other hand, it could be seen as taking the route Goethe couldn't, namely going with the girl inspite of the fact it's morally inexecusable. Koshiro had that option of life, just through complete self-destruction first, atleast in that perspective. Like I said, with the motivation involved, it could just as easily be like putting a bullet betwixt his brows.

What am I getting at? Yeah, you're damn right, and I've said it before in other threads: The actions aren't justifiable. In fact, such denials of impulse are the basis for faith. One takes on what could be a very painful burden in the hope that one's willingness to affect change with prayer and belief and perserverance rather than giving into what may ultimately be self-destructive and generally destructive impulses will eventually reward one's self with a better life even though it places the burden more firmly on one's shoulders alone. As a theist, I know the series is dispicable, detestable and sickening, especially if what it says is "if that's what take to affect change in your life, do it. It'll be ok." However, as something that tries to something very unique philosophical and actually tries to get serious about visual metaphor and actually trying to do something unique philosophically compared to it contemporaries, it beats the hell out of a lot of other anime and even alot of other stories in various forms literature, and it's comparable to a lot of well-regarded works because it's pushing into that territory. Yeah, it's totally useless for the day to day (unlike say, Haibane Renmei, whose end morality is very, very valid for the day to day.) Koi Kaze is absolute and irredeemable garbage from any normal, reasonable, common sense moral standpoint for even daring to broach that it's remotely acceptable. But, is it a valid work to play with so you can utilize concepts and techniques of literary and philosophical analysis? Yeah, just as much as various other works which pull the exact abhorable moral standpoint trick as a means of playing into a grayer area.