Toon Zone Talkback - "The Place Promised in Our Early Days": A Modern Animated Classic

[Duke]

This is the talkback thread for "The Place Promised in Our Early Days": A Modern Animated Classic (http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=5200).

Wow. Comparable to Miyazaki and Kon is something that carries some weight. For Ben to say this, this film must be awesome.

http://news.toonzone.net/images/2005-08/splash-place.jpg

[Karl Olson]

This is the talkback thread for "The Place Promised in Our Early Days": A Modern Animated Classic (http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=5200).

Wow. Comparable to Miyazaki and Kon is something that carries some weight. For Ben to say this, this film must be awesome.


Read who authored the review. ;)

[GrantM]

I'd buy this, I mean I bought "Voices Of A Distant Star", but.......I don't know now......

Jessica Boone (the reason I don't buy ADV DVD's anymore) is in the dub. ADV please stop using her, I can't buy anything with her on the dub

[Ben]

More evidence that Karl and I were twin brothers in a past life.

Karl's review only increases my anticipation of this film tomorrow afternoon. It should be interesting to see a film that features a divided Japan, in divided Korea.

[True Noir]

I saw it a while back this year and it is truely an amazing film. The animation is great but some may say that it's not as comparable as VODS. The story is really amazing though and the way the character evolve and change throughout it...

Here's a thread I made back when it was being devoloped and when it came out in Japan....some of us on TZ already have seen it so their might be some insight and opinions in here (http://www.forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=118699).

"Beyond the Cloud's" by Makoto Shinkai thread (http://www.forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=118699)

By the way, Karl...excellent review. Really, nice job. :)

[Karl Olson]

More evidence that Karl and I were twin brothers in a past life.

[horrible pun]
However, if it were in my family tree, that would make us Olson twins you realize?
[/horrible pun]


Karl's review only increases my anticipation of this film tomorrow afternoon. It should be interesting to see a film that features a divided Japan, in divided Korea.

Yeah, perhaps if it bares enough resemblance, you should write something up for the editorial section. That'd be awesome.

BTW, the Miyazaki-ness is from the single minded vision of the film - this is Shinkai's film, noone elses, regardless of the involvement of other very talented people. The Kon-ness is in the attention to details, particularly in the background art - the only animated film that comes close to equivalent skill when it comes to background and palette to Place Promised is Kon's Tokyo Godfathers - there, I actually have trouble picking because their respective usages/methods aren't similar, just both excellent. The result is crazy good though as it's truely one person's vision and it's just ridiciously well rendered and realized. Maybe it won't hold up on the big screen though. That's for Ben to work out.

[Duke]

I'd love to see this film. My main complaint about VODS was that it was incomplete, but it sounds like this is a bit more complete, meaning it should be much better. :anime:

[GrantM]

I'd love to see this film. My main complaint about VODS was that it was incomplete, but it sounds like this is a bit more complete, meaning it should be much better. :anime:
it was incomplete?

[Duke]

it was incomplete?Well, it was only a half-hour and the ending seemed a bit too open-ended. The entire thing looks like a really well-done TV pitch.

[Karl Olson]

Well, it was only a half-hour and the ending seemed a bit too open-ended. The entire thing looks like a really well-done TV pitch.

Eh, I'd say as long you grasp a few of the key elements in play (not to slight you, cause it's not an easy concept and a lot of the ideas are inferred or only shown in bits of text on a news paper,) it's not just functional as a one-shot short story, it's the kind of short story you'd expect someone like Clarke or Asimov or Heinlein to write. You got to keep in mind that in Voices:

1. Faster than light travel is possible, faster than light communication isn't.
2. Further still, their faster than light travel seems to have no time dilation, so as long as you don't lose your faster than light travel engine, you'd arrive home before your own messages did if you then headed back to Earth at the same time you sent your messages out.
3. However, should your ship be damaged and you then end up having use a near light travel engine that has no dilation correction (which is what happens in voices,) you'd arrive after your messages did, and further still, you wouldn't not have aged relative to the people on earth because of the time dilation.
4. The result is that the girl is temporally out of phase to her boyfriend on Earth. She's still 15, but he's 24 (IIRC.) However, there is that line about moving in their own time, suggesting that dilation issues aside, they still love each other.

Like I said, it's a very sci-fi but very well-done and complete short story. It poses a really interesting question, then answers it in a very entertaining way - a perfect what if/then. Sure, it could easily be a series (probably 13 episodes,) and a groundbreaking one that if they really did a good job of playing with the dilation issues and kept the narrative and visual impact. Part of why it's so tight and visually strong though is that it doesn't drag one bit out. It's almost a visual ballad more than a story in that sense - a grand tale told beautifully but compactly.

Place is the same way - it gives only hints of the sci-fi elements in play and really leaves it to the viewer to work out why it works, and focuses more on the emotions the situation causes that the situation itself.

[Chad Bonin]

Jessica Boone (the reason I don't buy ADV DVD's anymore) is in the dub. ADV please stop using her, I can't buy anything with her on the dubOne, not a spoiler.
Two, a rather shallow reason not to watch something. Can we assume that she's the VA that is your age but much more accomplished in the field?

More evidence that Karl and I were twin brothers in a past life.And what am I, the more swinging young bro?

... I need to see this, but where can I fit it in between watching such lovely series as Hand Maid May and Kiddy Grade?

[Karl Olson]

One, not a spoiler.
Two, a rather shallow reason not to watch something. Can we assume that she's the VA that is your age but much more accomplished in the field?
And what am I, the more swinging young bro?

Well, Ben and I have picked on you on an occaision and we're both older than you (so little bro works,) but I'd hardly call you swinging. Both Ben and I have dated more than you IIRC. Ben, however, is more of a ladies' man than both of us what with his cooking skills and such.

So no, not swinging.


... I need to see this, but where can I fit it in between watching such lovely series as Hand Maid May and Kiddy Grade?

Place Promised >>>>>> Kiddy Grade >>>>>>>>> Hand Maid May.

Set your priorities straight, lil bro. :D

[Chad Bonin]

I can cook; I did pancakes today...

... aww... big brother's picking on me again!

[Duke]

So I guess I'm the best-friend-from-down-the-street whose sole purpose is to make you guys look better, huh?

[GrantM]

So I guess I'm the best-friend-from-down-the-street whose sole purpose is to make you guys look better, huh?
Uh dude, is this conversation going anywhere?

[Lord Dalek]

Sure, it could easily be a series (probably 13 episodes,) and a groundbreaking one that if they really did a good job of playing with the dilation issues and kept the narrative and visual impact. Not THAT groundbreaking. Gunbuster more or less did the exact same thing in 1987 but used FTL as a plot device, not as a dramatic element such as in HnK.

[Chad Bonin]

So I guess I'm the best-friend-from-down-the-street whose sole purpose is to make you guys look better, huh?No, you're our friend we use to get chicks who'll only go out on double dates. ... and Willie C's bros... and MCSarah's bro-in-law.

[GrantM]

No, you're our friend we use to get chicks who'll only go out on double dates. ... and Willie C's bros... and MCSarah's bro-in-law.
Dude.....is this going anywhere?

[Chris Wood]

Sounds cool, although I was a little confused by the trailer. Is this more of a teenage drama, or a war epic?

[Karl Olson]

Not THAT groundbreaking. Gunbuster more or less did the exact same thing in 1987 but used FTL as a plot device, not as a dramatic element such as in HnK.

Yeah, but the ground breaking part is using it as a dramatic element. It would be a very hard sci-fi thing, yet oddly emotive, which would be very different from a lot of other attempts at hard anime sci-fi.

However, it'd be hard to say whether it'd just be nothing more than Voice but longer, in which case, fine it would provide with maybe a bit more time to explain the science involved, maybe a bit more time to see what the daily lifes were out side of the phone communication, maybe some more of the aliens, maybe some more action, maybe some more pretty backgrounds and cinematography, but I'm not sure whether it would say much more than it does now. Spell it out a bit more? Maybe. Say it with more impact and concision? Probably not. Hence why I don't think it's a condensed pilot, but really an intense short film.

As far as what Place is, well, I suppose I'd call it a hard sci-fi drama (teenage by virtue of the age of characters, though it's not the stereotypical angst you normal see - it's a lot more noble and elegant than that,) set against a war story. Not an epic, but a story.

[KasumiTen]

I didn't feel that this one had the emotional impact of Voices, but still an excellent title. I enjoyed it even more the second time I watched it through.

[Chris Wood]

As far as what Place is, well, I suppose I'd call it a hard sci-fi drama (teenage by virtue of the age of characters, though it's not the stereotypical angst you normal see - it's a lot more noble and elegant than that,) set against a war story. Not an epic, but a story.


Shucks. I was hoping for all-out war Gundam style.

[Karl Olson]

Shucks. I was hoping for all-out war Gundam style.

Oh by no means is it Gundam. OTOH, that's really to it's benefit. It'd lose direction trying to have that element as well.

[Ben]

Spell it out a bit more? Maybe. Say it with more impact and concision? Probably not.

Perfectly stated. Voices acheived that magical balance between not enough exposition and too much. The film confirmed just enough elements for you to follow the emotional development toward the conclusion, and it ended when the development reached its destination, without feeling the need to fill in all the blanks for the viewer. It's a great film, and perfect for its length. Shinkai should go back and have the character animation redone someday. I'd buy that.

Though I still can't understand why, according to Karl, in the complete story it's a happy ending where they get back together. I still can't see how that would work. I prefer the more tragic, and more poetic, possibility.

And Place has more in common with Evangelion than Gundam. In fact, me and Aaron Bitzer, the guy I was with (an American animator living in Japan-- we hit it off and stuck together for most of the weekend), looked at each other when the Aomori military control room popped up and we both mouthed "Evangelion!" I think it goes far enough to be called a deliberate homage.

I don't understand why Shinkai chose the English title he did. To me, "The Promised Place Beyond the Clouds" sounds a lot better. After all, it's not like they were 65 when they went to the tower. It was only three years later. Kinda silly to call that "early days," relatively speaking.

When I chased Shinkai out of the theater afterward, he said, unsuprisingly, that his films are overwhelmingly influenced, just as Hiroki is, by living in Tokyo, and the dehumanizing, isolating power of big cities. I suspect that's why he chose romanticized "furusato" settings in rural or at least suburban Japan for both this and his last film. Even though Aomori is a big city, we never see any of its urban parts. Even the factory is out in the middle of nowhere.

The growth of the characters is really fascinating. The boys both harden in some way. Hiroki feels the cold sting of loneliness, and Takuya confronts the harsh realities of war. But Sayuri retreats from the world, or rather her grandfather imprisons her in a false ("parallel") world.

The North-South thing that rang my bells the most was when the dude is explaining to Takuya, "You are from the generation after the division, so I understand how you must long for Ezo. The boss is from the older generation, so his feelings are a little more complicated." With a few words changed that could have been lifted straight out of our newspaper, it so perfectly describes the generation gap here. I asked Shinkai about it but I couldn't quite understand his answer. I have to go back to the recording today and figure it out.

The ending just tore my heart out. But emotions are emotions, and like dreams, once they disappear there is no easy way to get them back.

A very good movie. I'd really like to see it again.

[Karl Olson]

Perfectly stated. Voices acheived that magical balance between not enough exposition and too much. The film confirmed just enough elements for you to follow the emotional development toward the conclusion, and it ended when the development reached its destination, without feeling the need to fill in all the blanks for the viewer. It's a great film, and perfect for its length. Shinkai should go back and have the character animation redone someday. I'd buy that.

Agreed. After seeing Place full rez, Voice's gaffes become a lot more apparent; I'd totally double dip for a cleaned up version. It's still outstanding though as it stands.


Though I still can't understand why, according to Karl, in the complete story it's a happy ending where they get back together. I still can't see how that would work. I prefer the more tragic, and more poetic, possibility.

/me grabs Voices DVD off the shelf.

One, it fits the monomythic element a bit better (loss, journey, test, return.) The story doesn't cast things in a way that makes it seems like it's in a concept of fate crushing you down, atleast in a way that's as obvious as death - Mikako wasn't someone who came from death, especially given Shinkai's romanced view of the rural world, and who then was thrust into a journey for life; no, she lived a beautiful life until she was called upon to be an instrument of death (Osiris sealed into the Coffin by Set? oh no comparative lit - ps therefore, Noboru is Isis reconstructing Osiris/Mikako via the parts of her scattered through time) and as such, return is to the life she once had - a peaceful one - and that is almost necessary (kinda like the last part of Spielberg's AI, though that's it's own can of worms to debate.) However, this doesn't absolve it from seeming tragic - since she did end up with the time dilation on her way home, she won't be returning in time to resume her life from where it started - she'll have lost 8 years when for it's only been a year or so by her own perception. The loss isn't blood, it's time. Noboru's line about "I will live in my own time" reflects this sense of loss. It's the sacrifice he makes in return for her in one sense. It's also arguably a loss of innocence as well - the world isn't simple absolutes that fall out nicely; those survive it, who thrive inspite of it, are who can get over the loss and live regardless of it. He may be 24, she maybe 15, but they've both through their own separate yet connected hell and are wiser for it.

Additionally, the newspaper in the final scene with Noboru says:

"Battle at Sirius 8 Years Ago - Victory"
"Seriously Damaged - The Possibility of Return, The Lysithea"
So the ship saved by her gets home (not only implied by the paper, but also the meches flying over head,) and though her mech is in bad shape, it's not obviously threatening to go critical, just probably low on batteries after her power move.

The endline, "I am here" perhaps only exacerbated any ambiguity, but as easily at it could be referring to something like "I am here in memory," it could also be referring to something like "I am here, time be damned." It could be seen as a proclamation of devotion inspite of external influences.

Even the song, engrish aside, could be argued to play into this.

"If I could flow straighter than the string of light,
I would lay these hands on time.
Though the years, and far away,
Far beyond the milky way.
See the shine that never blinks,
The shine that never fades."

If I could reach through time I would love to see you, your undying love.

Or something like that.


It's bittersweet, much like Place Promised; you don't win everything - loss of some sort is an inevitability - but that should not deter you from doing what you believe in. Shinkai is, perhaps inspite of working in sci-fi, perhaps because he works in sci-fi, very realistic and honest in the consequences of things. Ambivalence is a more honest state that perfect happiness or complete dispair. Every cloud has a silver lining but there are clouds in the sky because we don't live in a static world - things move.

Wow, I'm really getting to play lately. I should review deep stuff more often. Seriously, this is really fun to me. I really don't get play with that level of depth often.

BTW, a testament to Voices quality is not that it can be played with like this, but also that even though I've seen it again and again, it still gets me, maybe now more than ever. The more I think about it and mull it over the more it just sorta leaves me flabbergasted and touched.


And Place has more in common with Evangelion than Gundam. In fact, me and Aaron Bitzer, the guy I was with (an American animator living in Japan-- we hit it off and stuck together for most of the weekend), looked at each other when the Aomori military control room popped up and we both mouthed "Evangelion!" I think it goes far enough to be called a deliberate homage.

Well, Eva sorta set the standard for the display 2D info on a screen on anime. The detail they did (by hand) is outstanding even by today's standards. It's perhaps not so much omage as that topping isn't an easy task... though it's also probably a bit of an omage. I dunno. Works great both ways.


I don't understand why Shinkai chose the English title he did. To me, "The Promised Place Beyond the Clouds" sounds a lot better. After all, it's not like they were 65 when they went to the tower. It was only three years later. Kinda silly to call that "early days," relatively speaking.

Well, for some people 3 years is a huge change. It's obviously been so for the 3 lead characters. Yeah, early days is over the top, but it's not unreasonable. They were "kids" when they made that promise, and they are hardened adults now. OTOH, maybe he wanted to cast the film in a different light for the English audience. Beyond the Clouds plays to dreams - Our Early Days plays to nostalgia and innocence. OTOH, I suppose the romance movement types would argue that dreams are a sign of innocence. As such, maybe the titles aren't that disparate.

Like I said, fun.


When I chased Shinkai out of the theater afterward, he said, unsuprisingly, that his films are overwhelmingly influenced, just as Hiroki is, by living in Tokyo, and the dehumanizing, isolating power of big cities. I suspect that's why he chose romanticized "furusato" settings in rural or at least suburban Japan for both this and his last film. Even though Aomori is a big city, we never see any of its urban parts. Even the factory is out in the middle of nowhere.

"I think it was Anne of Green Gables who said 'I feel so lonely when I'm with other people, but when I'm walking outside I don't feel lonely at all." - Maho, Kare Kano vol.10

It really is unsurprising that the isolation of big cities is a heavy influence on Shinkai. When I was watching some of the Tokyo stuff in Place Promised, it was just a violent throwback in someways to my urban experience in Baltimore - that hollow feeling while being surrounded by millions of people - just rang out as too familiar (which coincidentally is where I got Kare v.10 for free out of Tokyopop - serendipitous much?) Shoot, his depiction of apartments of single folks in a big city are stunningly dead on, and really almost unsettling give that he's really illuminating the loneliness of that life. Granted, this could be because that for a while there he was likely the epitome of that life. He was one man working alone in a city of millions, striving away on a goal, running in on his own time, separate to the world.


The growth of the characters is really fascinating. The boys both harden in some way. Hiroki feels the cold sting of loneliness, and Takuya confronts the harsh realities of war. But Sayuri retreats from the world, or rather her grandfather imprisons her in a false ("parallel") world.

Well, in a sense, it's a play perhaps not unlike Voices. A girl is held out of time in an unfamiliar surrounding distant from those she loves while the people around her change and grow in determination and maturity, though not perhaps in their goals and dreams.

Shoot, just recognized that. Ah, this is good stuff.


The North-South thing that rang my bells the most was when the dude is explaining to Takuya, "You are from the generation after the division, so I understand how you must long for Ezo. The boss is from the older generation, so his feelings are a little more complicated." With a few words changed that could have been lifted straight out of our newspaper, it so perfectly describes the generation gap here. I asked Shinkai about it but I couldn't quite understand his answer. I have to go back to the recording today and figure it out.

Yeah, that would be very, very interesting to hear. The more I think about it, the more it seems both applicable in some ways, and inapplicable in others, but I'm really just not close enough to it to even begin to probably go into it and parse the possibilities. Curse my ignorant, poorly-traveled world view.


The ending just tore my heart out. But emotions are emotions, and like dreams, once they disappear there is no easy way to get them back.

A very good movie. I'd really like to see it again.

Now available on R1 DVD. Pick it up if you're ever back in the states or hope for R3s. Or I could just send you a copy of the US release. It's reasonably priced, and besides, I owe you for discussions as rewarding and satisfying as these. I should get down to business and watch and review Koi Kaze 3 so I've got a fresh excuse to do some more of this.

[Ben]

/me grabs Voices DVD off the shelf.

The particular image I had in mind was this: the lack of FTL communication means that Noboru keeps receiving messages even after Mikako dies, like a star whose light keeps shining on Earth millions of years after it has been extinguished. But you're right, Shinkai may be sentimental, but he still prefers complicated, sometimes more unsatisfying realities over tragic/comic formulae.


One, it fits the monomythic element a bit better (loss, journey, test, return.) The story doesn't cast things in a way that makes it seems like it's in a concept of fate crushing you down, atleast in a way that's as obvious as death - Mikako wasn't someone who came from death, especially given Shinkai's romanced view of the rural world, and who then was thrust into a journey for life; no, she lived a beautiful life until she was called upon to be an instrument of death (Osiris sealed into the Coffin by Set? oh no comparative lit - ps therefore, Noboru is Isis reconstructing Osiris/Mikako via the parts of her scattered through time)

But Isis had to make a major effort, consecrating the sites where she found the pieces and all that, whereas Mikako's fragments arrive automatically as occasional interludes in Noboru's life. Maybe if Noboru had been more like Hiroki, hung up on Mikako and making an effort to find and help her, that would work a bit better. Or if Mikako really did die and Noboru created a robot Mikako with a consciousness generated by hooking up his brain to a computer and having it drain his memories of her? That would make for a freaky, Japanese technological take on the story. And one that Shinkai would never touch. ;) I will say this: Mikako would make a much cuter Osiris than the, er, actual one.


and as such, return is to the life she once had - a peaceful one - and that is almost necessary (kinda like the last part of Spielberg's AI, though that's it's own can of worms to debate.) However, this doesn't absolve it from seeming tragic - since she did end up with the time dilation on her way home, she won't be returning in time to resume her life from where it started - she'll have lost 8 years when for it's only been a year or so by her own perception. The loss isn't blood, it's time. Noboru's line about "I will live in my own time" reflects this sense of loss. It's the sacrifice he makes in return for her in one sense. It's also arguably a loss of innocence as well - the world isn't simple absolutes that fall out nicely; those survive it, who thrive inspite of it, are who can get over the loss and live regardless of it. He may be 24, she maybe 15, but they've both through their own separate yet connected hell and are wiser for it.

I suppose my question then is, where does that leave Mikako? She's screwed six ways to Sunday no matter which way you look at it, and she's bound to blame Noboru, if only subconsciously, for not being there for her when she gets back. In that context, I am thinking, perhaps, a continuation of the story would not be out of line. Nothing that explains the first part in more detail, that's unnecessary. But it would be illuminating to see how Shinkai might depict Mikako's readjustment to life on Earth, even if only with thirty more seconds of film. Maybe for our hypothetical fantasy second version.


Additionally, the newspaper in the final scene with Noboru says:

"Battle at Sirius 8 Years Ago - Victory"
"Seriously Damaged - The Possibility of Return, The Lysithea"
So the ship saved by her gets home (not only implied by the paper, but also the meches flying over head,) and though her mech is in bad shape, it's not obviously threatening to go critical, just probably low on batteries after her power move.

That was part of what I liked about the ending originally-- it didn't specify whether she was alive or dead, and it would be years and years before Noboru would even be able to confirm her death (or not). Keeping in mind that if/when she returns Noboru will not be 24, he'll be maybe 30 when we factor in the return voyage (which brings us uncomfortably back to Koi Kaze... AGH! :D)


The endline, "I am here" perhaps only exacerbated any ambiguity, but as easily at it could be referring to something like "I am here in memory," it could also be referring to something like "I am here, time be damned." It could be seen as a proclamation of devotion inspite of external influences.

I think it's referring to what Mikako has discovered is the one and only certainty of life. Everything other than the fact of our own existence can betray us, even our thoughts and (to bring it back to Place Promised) our dreams.


"If I could flow straighter than the string of light,

A nice Einsteinian image.


I would lay these hands on time.
Though the years, and far away,
Far beyond the milky way.
See the shine that never blinks,
The shine that never fades."

This is where I got my "light shining after death" idea, as an astronomical allegory for memory.


Ambivalence is a more honest state that perfect happiness or complete dispair. Every cloud has a silver lining but there are clouds in the sky because we don't live in a static world - things move.

Which is, of course, the whole point of using an sf dramatic device based on the effects of motion in relativity theory.


Wow, I'm really getting to play lately. I should review deep stuff more often. Seriously, this is really fun to me. I really don't get play with that level of depth often.

You would've enjoyed a lot of the shorts at SICAF. You should see if it's feasible for you to go to Ottawa in September. Also, you should join the book club (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=147852). I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Great Divorce (it's very brief, you could finish it in one short sitting).


BTW, a testament to Voices quality is not that it can be played with like this, but also that even though I've seen it again and again, it still gets me, maybe now more than ever. The more I think about it and mull it over the more it just sorta leaves me flabbergasted and touched.

I need to find my disc and watch it again. It's been a very long time (like, years).


Well, for some people 3 years is a huge change. It's obviously been so for the 3 lead characters. Yeah, early days is over the top, but it's not unreasonable. They were "kids" when they made that promise, and they are hardened adults now.

Or at least destabilized young adults. This movie, rather than depict the complete development of its characters, seems to depict how their real lives begin. It's grappling with the issues the ending presents them with that will turn Sayuri and Hiroki into adults.


OTOH, maybe he wanted to cast the film in a different light for the English audience. Beyond the Clouds plays to dreams - Our Early Days plays to nostalgia and innocence. OTOH, I suppose the romance movement types would argue that dreams are a sign of innocence.

Or of, in this case, perverted innocence, which is a bit of a contradiction.


It really is unsurprising that the isolation of big cities is a heavy influence on Shinkai. When I was watching some of the Tokyo stuff in Place Promised, it was just a violent throwback in someways to my urban experience in Baltimore - that hollow feeling while being surrounded by millions of people - just rang out as too familiar (which coincidentally is where I got Kare v.10 for free out of Tokyopop - serendipitous much?) Shoot, his depiction of apartments of single folks in a big city are stunningly dead on, and really almost unsettling give that he's really illuminating the loneliness of that life. Granted, this could be because that for a while there he was likely the epitome of that life. He was one man working alone in a city of millions, striving away on a goal, running in on his own time, separate to the world.

I've been able to avoid the full force of that shock by staying in a boarding house managed by a Korean family, but I'm certainly getting a taste. It's by far the most aggressively urban place I've lived. In fact, in my neighborhood a tree is a big deal. I'm not making a cartoon, though.


Well, in a sense, it's a play perhaps not unlike Voices. A girl is held out of time in an unfamiliar surrounding distant from those she loves while the people around her change and grow in determination and maturity, though not perhaps in their goals and dreams.

I thought of exactly this about a third of the way through your post. FREAKY.


Yeah, that would be very, very interesting to hear. The more I think about it, the more it seems both applicable in some ways, and inapplicable in others, but I'm really just not close enough to it to even begin to probably go into it and parse the possibilities. Curse my ignorant, poorly-traveled world view.

Don't be so hard on yourself. It is inappropriate in many ways (it's hard to think of any area of technology the North is ahead of the South on, for instance). It was just a thought.


Now available on R1 DVD. Pick it up if you're ever back in the states or hope for R3s. Or I could just send you a copy of the US release. It's reasonably priced, and besides, I owe you for discussions as rewarding and satisfying as these. I should get down to business and watch and review Koi Kaze 3 so I've got a fresh excuse to do some more of this.

Heh. Koi Kaze I watched very quickly, and I recall it even more fuzzily than Voices. Place Promised is out on DVD here, so I'll have to go pick it up someday.

[Karl Olson]

The particular image I had in mind was this: the lack of FTL communication means that Noboru keeps receiving messages even after Mikako dies, like a star whose light keeps shining on Earth millions of years after it has been extinguished. But you're right, Shinkai may be sentimental, but he still prefers complicated, sometimes more unsatisfying realities over tragic/comic formulae.

Well, again, it plays into the ambiguity of the end line. It could split as "she's dead" but their in his heart, or I quite literally "I am here" though that comes loaded with it's own set of heavy ramifications. If she left for some not long after she fought that battle she'd arrive shortly after he recieved it. I just don't see her as an Icarus/Gilgamesh-esque character - Mikako wasn't looking for the power of God, and therefore would end up smacked down for her hubris. She was a humble girl trust into a position of power who wished to just go home and visit a convience store with boyfriend. I mean, if you're ending is the correct interpretation, then it's almost like Death of a Salesman (w/o the suicide) - average person looks for average life, but can't even get that.


But Isis had to make a major effort, consecrating the sites where she found the pieces and all that, whereas Mikako's fragments arrive automatically as occasional interludes in Noboru's life. Maybe if Noboru had been more like Hiroki, hung up on Mikako and making an effort to find and help her, that would work a bit better. Or if Mikako really did die and Noboru created a robot Mikako with a consciousness generated by hooking up his brain to a computer and having it drain his memories of her? That would make for a freaky, Japanese technological take on the story. And one that Shinkai would never touch. ;) I will say this: Mikako would make a much cuter Osiris than the, er, actual one.

Again, the journey would have to be more temporal in it's consideration. Noboru's sitting there searching in the one fashion you can when you're on different time line to another person: you wait, even though it may be painful to do so, until you catch up with the other person. Even then, clearly he was looking to make an effort in his own right to join her by entering the military, working very hard to prove himself, and then get himself assigned to one of the type of ships Mikako was on. In a way, Noboru's has the same level of disconnection from Mikako as Hiroki has from Sayuri. Both males can't really actively communicate with the ones they love, all they can do see the fragments left of them assemble as some kind of motivation.


I suppose my question then is, where does that leave Mikako? She's screwed six ways to Sunday no matter which way you look at it, and she's bound to blame Noboru, if only subconsciously, for not being there for her when she gets back. In that context, I am thinking, perhaps, a continuation of the story would not be out of line. Nothing that explains the first part in more detail, that's unnecessary. But it would be illuminating to see how Shinkai might depict Mikako's readjustment to life on Earth, even if only with thirty more seconds of film. Maybe for our hypothetical fantasy second version.

Ah, but if it's given a more definitive conclusion this little discussion disappears. Granted, it really doesn't help that the Japanese version had a 30 page booklet that really explained a lot of the background stuff (especially the FTL/Near Light stuff,) and in general pointed more toward she got home, and now they are living together on their own time. I don't think they'd have bothered making the distinction between the FTL No-Dilation travel and Near Light Dilation travel unless the point was she gets home, but she's lived 1 year where he's lived 9. That in a sense, it only really makes full use of the sci-fi elements that Shinkai puts into play if at minumum the ship gets home.

And like I said, he's been assigned to one of those big ships, and as she's the hero of the war (if she lived,) she can probably ask for any assignment she wants. If things play the I way I'd figure they do given the rest of the implications at hand, there is no way they wouldn't end up back together. Weirdly enough. However, like I said, they'd have to live a life that has it's own sacrifices to do so. In a sense, sure they'd be together, but it'd be a on big battleship, so they never would have their "youth" back. The place promised in there early days is just as non-existent as the tower of Ezo.


That was part of what I liked about the ending originally-- it didn't specify whether she was alive or dead, and it would be years and years before Noboru would even be able to confirm her death (or not). Keeping in mind that if/when she returns Noboru will not be 24, he'll be maybe 30 when we factor in the return voyage (which brings us uncomfortably back to Koi Kaze... AGH! :D)

I'm thinkin it probably wouldn't have been years and years. I think the twist is that they get home not long after their radio signal arrives (hence the tracers in the sky in that scene) and the newspapers go out - maybe a few days/weeks later (again going off some of what little I've heard from the booklet.) As far as the age gap, that another very sci-fi concept - the ramifications on emotional relations to do time dilation. I think there is a clear difference between the age gaps of Koi and Voices as such. Koi almost used it more as a way of twisting the knife - how can they make life for our characters harder, more tragic. Voices is using it as sort of a statement on love inspite of surreal circumstances. No matter happens between Noboru and Mikako, they love each other.


I think it's referring to what Mikako has discovered is the one and only certainty of life. Everything other than the fact of our own existence can betray us, even our thoughts and (to bring it back to Place Promised) our dreams.

And in that fashion, it doesn't matter whether she lived or died. She is there in Noboru for ever. Her memory lives on no matter what. In a sense, it plays back into the little Osirian aside earlier because Mikako achieves immortality in one sense in Noboru's heart after having reassembled her memories, be they final or not.


A nice Einsteinian image.

Verily.


This is where I got my "light shining after death" idea, as an astronomical allegory for memory.

Or it could it be anallegory for devotion and love. Over 8 years Noboru has never faded in his devotion to Mikako, and if only she could bend the rules of time space, she could see that for herself, she could be home before her e-mails arrive. In a sense, perhaps the song ends up with radically different meanings depending on whose perspective you take it from.


Which is, of course, the whole point of using an sf dramatic device based on the effects of motion in relativity theory.

Yep. It also means that things can really played both ways depending on whether you're looking on the good or the bad. Like I said, the scenario I outline isn't without hardship at all, and it's perhaps more difficult than death, but it's the way that their life must lived to move forward in a sense.

Oddly, it is KoiKaze-like in as much as the harder part of it isn't saying "well sucks so I'll die" (as they came close to doing in Koi,) but saying "life sucks, but I'll live somehow and learn how to grow inspite of what sucks" (which is ultimately both Voices and Koi's morals.)


You would've enjoyed a lot of the shorts at SICAF. You should see if it's feasible for you to go to Ottawa in September. Also, you should join the book club (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=147852). I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Great Divorce (it's very brief, you could finish it in one short sitting).

I should probably make sure I get through the various discs I've promised to review first.


I need to find my disc and watch it again. It's been a very long time (like, years).

Did you bring it with you?


Or at least destabilized young adults. This movie, rather than depict the complete development of its characters, seems to depict how their real lives begin. It's grappling with the issues the ending presents them with that will turn Sayuri and Hiroki into adults.

Right. In a sense, that can't happen until that promise made in their "youth" is resolved. They've got to deal with the things that happened then before they can move on, or else be strangled back by it always.

Again, KoiKaze. Koshiro's got to deal with things or else he won't move forward.


Or of, in this case, perverted innocence, which is a bit of a contradiction.

Well, that's sorta how it goes.


I've been able to avoid the full force of that shock by staying in a boarding house managed by a Korean family,

Somehow that immediately evoked Hey Arnold for me. I don't know why.


but I'm certainly getting a taste. It's by far the most aggressively urban place I've lived. In fact, in my neighborhood a tree is a big deal. I'm not making a cartoon, though.

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty harsh place to live in someways. Where I live trees grow like weeds. Pity we won't see "Ben: The Animated Series" out of it though.


I thought of exactly this about a third of the way through your post. FREAKY.

Mindtaker! --- ooooiiieeooooeiooooo.


Don't be so hard on yourself. It is inappropriate in many ways (it's hard to think of any area of technology the North is ahead of the South on, for instance). It was just a thought.

Well, even that could be argued to be a metaphor for nuclear arms. Not really to the same technological par, but dangerous none the less, and really obviously tied the N/S Korea issue. However, it really is a story more about it's characters rather than it's politics, so it may be hard to pin them together in general.


Heh. Koi Kaze I watched very quickly, and I recall it even more fuzzily than Voices. Place Promised is out on DVD here, so I'll have to go pick it up someday.

Totally worth it. I wouldn't be calling it a classic otherwise.

[Nobuyuki sama]

I'm thinkin it probably wouldn't have been years and years. I think the twist is that they get home not long after their radio signal arrives (hence the tracers in the sky in that scene) and the newspapers go out - maybe a few days/weeks later (again going off some of what little I've heard from the booklet.) Actually...
The Lysithea is damaged and can't travel at FTL speed. Noboru's assigned to the FTL rescue ship that will intercept them at the halfway point, so it takes 4 years of her time to finally meet up with him again. (He'll be 24, while she'll be 19).


As far as the age gap, that another very sci-fi concept - the ramifications on emotional relations to do time dilation. I think there is a clear difference between the age gaps of Koi and Voices as such. Koi almost used it more as a way of twisting the knife - how can they make life for our characters harder, more tragic. Voices is using it as sort of a statement on love inspite of surreal circumstances. No matter happens between Noboru and Mikako, they love each other. Fully agreed about Voices.

[Karl Olson]

Actually...
The Lysithea is damaged and can't travel at FTL speed. Noboru's assigned to the FTL rescue ship that will intercept them at the halfway point, so it takes 4 years of her time to finally meet up with him again. (He'll be 24, while she'll be 19).

Ah ha. Makes I guess it make sense because IIRC during the last sequence he is walking toward a sign for a military installation. You sure it's going to work that it's 4 years of her time? Shouldn't there be dilation on her so it's his time. Or am I wrong on this.

And this is why ADV should've translated and included the darn booklet.

[Nobuyuki sama]

You sure it's going to work that it's 4 years of her time? Shouldn't there be dilation on her so it's his time. Or am I wrong on this. I'm just going by the translation provided to me...
Commander Rokomov, who is in charge of the expedition, gathers his crew and informs them he is aborting their mission and returning to Earth. He has already requested a rescue ship from Earth. It will take 8 years and 7 months before Earth receives his message. In the mean time, Lysithea will move under its own power to the nearest anchor point, Sirius Alpha, which is 2.1 light years from Earth and 6.5 light years from Agharta. Traveling at sub-light speed, Lysithea can get there within the 8 years 7 months time span. Due to time dilation, only 4 years will pass for those onboard.

24-years old Noboru-kun.
It’s the 15-years old Mikako.
You must have heard about the battle at Agharta by now.
I’m alive.
And, very happy.
What I’ve been praying for so long, the day we’ll return to Earth, has finally been decided.
By the time this mail arrives, Mikako will be at anchor point Sirius Alpha.
From there, I’m sure the rescue ship will take us back to Earth.
We can finally meet each other, Noboru-kun.
When we meet, Mikako has something to tell Noboru-kun directly. Something that she wants to say for a long, long time.
But, not through mails.
Lysithea will get moving shortly.
24-years old Noboru-kun, I wonder where are you and what are you doing?

:)

[Karl Olson]

I'm just going by the translation provided to me...
Commander Rokomov, who is in charge of the expedition, gathers his crew and informs them he is aborting their mission and returning to Earth. He has already requested a rescue ship from Earth. It will take 8 years and 7 months before Earth receives his message. In the mean time, Lysithea will move under its own power to the nearest anchor point, Sirius Alpha, which is 2.1 light years from Earth and 6.5 light years from Agharta. Traveling at sub-light speed, Lysithea can get there within the 8 years 7 months time span. Due to time dilation, only 4 years will pass for those onboard.

24-years old Noboru-kun.
It’s the 15-years old Mikako.
You must have heard about the battle at Agharta by now.
I’m alive.
And, very happy.
What I’ve been praying for so long, the day we’ll return to Earth, has finally been decided.
By the time this mail arrives, Mikako will be at anchor point Sirius Alpha.
From there, I’m sure the rescue ship will take us back to Earth.
We can finally meet each other, Noboru-kun.
When we meet, Mikako has something to tell Noboru-kun directly. Something that she wants to say for a long, long time.
But, not through mails.
Lysithea will get moving shortly.
24-years old Noboru-kun, I wonder where are you and what are you doing?

:)



Awesome. Glad to finally read that :D

[Ben]

OK, theory: the political angle on the tower is one of the deceptive nature of communism. The political setup is pretty clear: "the Union" is the USSR and the rest of Japan is, as it was in real life, aligned with the US. Tokyo represents the big, capitalist, soulless city, while the tower, viewed from the safely pastoral Aomori, represents the appeal of communism as a system that purportedly incorporates all into a grand project (a collective dream) as the antidote to individualist capitalism, but actually just isolates them from the rest of the world and from each other, creating a sphere of propaganda that is totally disconnected from reality (the parallel world).

[Karl Olson]

OK, theory: the political angle on the tower is one of the deceptive nature of communism. The political setup is pretty clear: "the Union" is the USSR and the rest of Japan is, as it was in real life, aligned with the US. Tokyo represents the big, capitalist, soulless city, while the tower, viewed from the safely pastoral Aomori, represents the appeal of communism as a system that purportedly incorporates all into a grand project (a collective dream) as the antidote to individualist capitalism, but actually just isolates them from the rest of the world and from each other, creating a sphere of propaganda that is totally disconnected from reality (the parallel world).

Oooooo nicely played Ben. Quite bleak as well, though Shinkai does offer the solution/alternative in Aomori itself, atleast as he depicts it - work for yourself, just not in a soul-crushing city (almost Thoreau-esque, or alteast Walden-esque.) Which is something I agree with. I doubt I'd ever live a fully urbanized area very long, atleast by myself. I really prefer the suburbs, and I really prefer human company. I could probably get along missing one, but there is a reason Shinkai's depiction of single guys' apartments feels so cold and bleak (outside of his very intensional casting of that,) and that is they really do feel like that. Some more so than others, but it's not a fictionalization.

In a sense, there is a message of moderation as such - don't be collectivist (which is in someways symbolic for the so-called group-think mentality and certainly what Ezo did) and don't cut yourself off either (which is in someways part of the modern hardcore otaku mentality, and what well, everyone sorta did for a while in Places); "interact and be an individual" could arguably be a tertiary statement of the work.