What was Batman Beyond's biggest mistake?

[DerekPowers]

out of all the eps and all the continuity/series of events that unfolded throughout the 3 seasons of bb, what would you say was the biggest mistake the writers/animators made?

there are many to choose from, maybe you feel the whole idea of bruce giving the mantle to another was the biggest mistake in the first place, maybe you felt the introduction of max was a big mistake, or maybe the whole idea of bruce and barbra's intimate relationship. Perhaps what urked you most was the change to digital coloring over traditional coloring, ra's al ghul's disturbing embodement in bb time, or the sudden unexplained resolve of the waynepowers story arch. its an individual thing.

but remember, make it something that actually took place in the bb series. for example, saying the fact they never gave us a nightwing story or made the second dtv catwoman movie doesnt count, cause that was all just possibilies that never played themselves out in the actual series.

me, i feel killing off blight, batman's arch enemy, a kick ***** villian, and a very well developed character, in the first season no less, before giving him the chance to shine (or glow) and even after that awesome warning batman gave paxton of blight's likely survival, still they killed him and never brought him back.

so, what's your opinion.......

[Clayface]

No offense to the fans of the show, but I just didn't like Terry as the Batman. I would have preferred to have seen something like what was done in Miller's TDKR or Ross's Kingdom Come.

[Supermon]

Originally posted by Clayface
No offense to the fans of the show, but I just didn't like Terry as the Batman. I would have preferred to have seen something like what was done in Miller's TDKR or Ross's Kingdom Come.

I totally agree with Clayface on this one. A TDKR set show would have rocked compared to some of the high school garbage we got fed in this series, but the WB wanted a younger Bat so that's what we got.

With that in mind, I think the show would have been much better if they had thrown Terry into total chaos. Such as, the city being totally over run with crime when he takes the mantle. More of a reason for a new Bat to come about. They started on the right track with Powers corrupting Wayne's company but they resolved that so quickly that we got left with all these crappy filler villans. Too many guys with special suits or belts that were disposed of in 20 minutes.

I always thought that it would have been more interesting if they had played up the Joker gang aspect of the story. Made them more dangerous and in control of whole parts of the city. Then Terry would have more of a purpose instead of making pals with Max and wondering if Dana is pissed.

[Calhoun07]

I think wasting time with useless episodes about dating robots and talking apes and the sort were what made the show a little less than great to me. I would have much rather seen them deal with Nightwing and perhaps bring Blight back for a final show down in a two or three parter, and focus on the other hard hitting story lines they were saving for the unpromised season four. They were promised a certain number of episodes, and had no guarantee they would be renewed to do more, so I don't know why they kept some great ideas aside so they could do some lame ones. They knew WB's track record. What was their chance they would be renewed?

Of course, I know that some of the episodes we think of as lame are ones KWB made them do because of the kiddie factor, but still....it wasn't good no matter who's fault it was (and I am thinking it was more KWB's fault than Timm and co.)

[The New Batman]

I really enjoyed BB and I thought the guy who played Terry's voice (I think he was on that dopey Boy Meets World Show) did a very good job. The biggest mistake was Max learning his secret and killing Blight on the 13th episode!

[Maxie Zeus]

Introducing that character seriously unbalanced the show, especially in the way it began treating Terry and Dana. The Old Maid has written some devastating pieces both on Max herself (http://toonzone.net/worldsfinest/bbeyond/procon1.html) and on her effects on the other characters (http://toonzone.net/worldsfinest/bbeyond/procon7a.html) in the Pro-Con section of "World's Finest." She persuades me that Max was the single greatest mistake in the series.

[Failure]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
Introducing that character seriously unbalanced the show, especially in the way it began treating Terry and Dana. The Old Maid has written some devastating pieces both on Max herself (http://toonzone.net/worldsfinest/bbeyond/procon1.html) and on her effects on the other characters (http://toonzone.net/worldsfinest/bbeyond/procon7a.html) in the Pro-Con section of "World's Finest." She persuades me that Max was the single greatest mistake in the series.

Agreed. Max dimininished Bruce's role somewhat, and prevented them from developing Dana's character. Of course, she was just flat out annoying which never helps.

I also agree with Cal in that there were a lot of great storylines that could've and should've been told, but instead we wound up with some bad eps, like the robiot dating one and so on. However, I do think Dini & co. probably wanted to avoid focusing on stories that dealt too much with Bruce's past, interesting as they may have been, because they wanted to make sure the show focused on Terry. And even though they didnt focus that much about Bruce's past, there's still quite a few complaints on how Terry himself was never developed thoroughly enough and too often took a back seat to Bruce

[Nightwing]

Yeah Old Maid's writings are above excellent. And in fact I agree about Max being the fundamental mistake. It was when she was brought in that the high school themed garbage started rolling in to what was originally a really cool series.

Although I admit I have to disagree with pretty much all the reasons concerning Bruce's past in one way or another, such as Terry as Batman or past stories we didn't get to see in TNBSA time. The focus of the show, and this argument, I think, is to criticize what is supposed to be Terry's show, not Bruce's, so it could live up to it's predecessor, even if only in a hypothetical manner, since the show is long over.

[FLIPMODE]

Hmm, I think their mistake was just putting some goofy kid in, as THE Batman. This was totally out of Chracter for Bruce. If anything he would have gave him a NEW identity.

And how about training? This kid hardly ever trained to Be Batman, his suit did everything.

I think they also made Bruce a little too old. And yes the Barbara and Bruce thing sickened me. Bluh. :confused:

[Blade]

The biggest mistake Batman Beyond made was not making the series longer!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, as it has been mentioned, the writers killed off all the good villians. Blight was a classic and I was sad that I only got to see him in the first season. (Although, I personally think there is a possibility that Blight isn't dead, but that's me.)

And let me play devil's advocate, I think adding Max to the series was one of the best things that ever happened to the show. She added a certain element to the show. For one, she was an obstacle Terry had to overcome. Bruce didn't have to deal with a curious teenage girl wanting to be in on the action. However Terry does have to deal with her and does a good job at it.

Then, at least for me, I enjoyed seeing a sista in a cartoon for once. Not trying to play the race card, but there aren't to many black cartoons, and when we get a character that's smart and beautiful, it's always a good thing.

And in my opinion, Max's attitude was infectious. Those funny and appropriate one liners still have me laughing. I just think that Max added a new vibe to the legend of Batman. Hey, let's not dread a little change.

[DerekPowers]

i think blight's death did everything (except the neglection of dana) that you guys are blamming max for, well in theory. i mean, season one had such a great story arc w/ the whole waynepowers power struggle, derek powers controling a very cool high tech criminal element in gotham, and hard edge stories. and that all connected to both terry AND bruce. the batman's return to the city and bruce's coming out of seclusion both coincided nicely, especially since powers was a threat to both bruce and terry.

once that arc was over, the series seemed sooo much less focused. there was no bigger picture that the season one arc encompassed. the villians got cheessy and less developed. w/ the focus out of the corporate underworld of gotham, they started focusing on the high school stories more (season one had its hs stories, but in that case it was quality over quantity). and all the unresolved issues touched upon in season one got forgotten.

thats why i feel the death of blight was the single biggest mistake the series could have made. its only speculation on whether the issues mentioned above and encompassed in season one would have been further developed had blight lived, but his death killed any hopes of that happening.

[Nightflower]

I disagree with Blade, I think Bruce had his fair share to deal with at the beginning with Batgirl, who was, I think, little more than an enthusiastic thrill-seeker, similar to Max.

Anyway, having read Old Maid's essay, I can't really think of anything to add other than that I agree that beefing up Max's role was a big mistake.

[batE]

OK, I said in the "Unmasked" talkback, that I was done posting here, but I missed this thread somehow, and I found it interesting, so this will be my definitve last post on the Batman/Superman/Beyond board.

First things first, I think the single biggest mistake BB made was killing the main villain (or at least rendering him irrelevant after season one). Blight was a great villain -- maybe not the Joker to Terry's Batman, per se, but he was a better villain than Shriek (I thnk) and slightly better than Spellbinder.

All right, to all the Max haters:

I don't purport to know why the writers added her. It could have been they were thinking of a one-shot deal (Bloodsport came before Hidden Agenda, no?) and it just snowballed from there. Maybe by season two, they'd grown tired of Dana, but they'd already introduced her, and just shutting down her character would have been not cool. I don't know. I agree with Blade that Max was a wonderful addition. Yes, I am black, and I don't think it's wrong of me to find a black female character on a show a wonderful addition any more than I think it is wrong for the many Asian women who post to a certain forum I was in to say that they are glad Terry's love interest was Asian.

From the beginning of my time here, I felt that there was a certain weirdness about the virulence of Max haters. Why would so many people loathe a character that was otherwise all right? And even tried to help the main character on occasion? I held back then and I still hold now that if you substitute, all-American blond perfection (i.e. Melanie) for dark-skinned, pink-haired Max, there wouldn't be so many basher. What I mean to say is, I have the sneaking suspicion that had Melanie found out Terry's secret and acted in the same capaicty that Max did (let's pretend for a moment that Max doesn't exist), with the same attitude, the same lines, the same screw-ups made in Umasked and in Final Cut, and the same willingness to help, that more people would find that "cute" instead of "annoying." And again, what's the difference between Melanie and Max? (See above).

I know people are already thinking -- "why's it gotta be a race thing?" Well, you know what? Constantly having to consider race is not fun. It's not fun to wonder if the nonblack person who was just rude to you or is staring at you or is following you around in a store is doing those things because they don't like your skin color. It's not fun to have to wonder if people are anti-Max because she's black. It's not fun -- trust me. But it's reality in this world. There is racism. And as a minority woman, I'm more aware of it. I think many minorities are, but blacks are (in the U.S.) the second most-hated ethnic group (now behind people of Middle Eastern and Arab descent). I am dead serious. And we're second only because of the Sept. 11 attacks.

I don't a single person on here personally, so I'm loath to say that the Max-haters hate her, either subconsciously or consciously, because she is black. Maybe that's not it at all. If you can honestly tell me that a white Max, a Latina Max or an Asian Max would have annoyed you just as much, then I'll believe you -- I'll have no reason not to. But still, I've gotta wonder. I've gotta wonder. . .


Later,
batE

[Calhoun07]

There was a discussion about Max's skin color before that got shut down, so I encourage everybody to cool their jets if they feel the need to respond to this.

I am just going to say that it has nothing to do with the color of skin whether or not I like a character or not. And as for Max giving Terry moral support and helping him out, I have no problems with her character in that aspect. However, when it comes to the aspect of her character acting like she wants to tell everybody about Terry's secret, there's something there that rubs me the wrong way, and it would rub me the wrong way no matter how they chose to draw her. I have to question what is her motivation towards Terry and how will she use this information in the future should she ever decide to turn against him. And we all know it's the people closest to the heroes that can inflict the greatest amount of damage. If Max wanted to, she could easilly develop powers to use against Terry or get in alliance with some villian to fight against Terry. It's that flaw in her character that worries me, not the skin color.

So yes, I wouldn't like that character flaw if she were Chinese, European, white, yellow, or purple.

[Salvor]

This discussion is bound to flare up but ah well...

Dude, if they had used Max's design and name for Melanie's role, I would have loooved Max! If they had used Melanie's design and name for Max's role, I would have haaated Melanie... get the point? The problem with Max stems from the bad character development she was granted in the series... nothing else, believe me!

And I'm surprised anyone other than Freud and Jung can tell what's in my subconscious...

[Failure]

Annoying knows no color boundaries, at least for me. I dont purport to speak for everyone else, but I dont think her color has much to do with people's dislike of her. Fact of the matter is, whether she's white, black, asian, hispanic or whatever, she was annoying, annoying, annoying. And that was due to how they wrote her parts.

[DerekPowers]

Bate, i will have to disagree STRONGLY with you. i am very big on minority issues, i am an asian man in america, so believe me, ive had my share of discrimination.

first, i dont think blacks are the most hated race in america (or as you said, now behind arab/middle easter races). that is ubsurd. first of all, i think overall blacks have it better than asians, mainly because the african american community is represented in pop culture, and right now, hip hop culture interests not only black people, but all people. asian people have nothing like that, and white people discriminate us on top of that. BUT DONT GET ME WRONG PEOPLE, THIS DISCUSSION IS IN THE BROADEST OF TERMS AND IN NO WAY IS MEANT TO INDICATE ANYONE ON THIS BOARD AND ISNT MEANT AS AN ATTACK ON WHITE PEOPLE, IM JUST SPEAKING IN A BROAD SENSE, YOU KNOW, SO LETS I HOPE EVERYONE CAN TAKE THIS DISCUSSION WITHOUT BEING OFFENDED. Anyway, i'd also venture to say that as far as the minority who has it worst, i'd say gay people have it worst, cause right now its still okay to hate/make fun of them. its comparable to how in the 50s is was okay to be openly against racial minorities, blacks in particular, and now racist behavior isnt acceptable in mainstream america, or atleast not embraced when it is expressed openly.

anyway, back to the whole max thing. i personally love max alot, i always have. honestly, part of me (being a minority) liked her even more because she was black. but that was just icing on the cake, i like her character in general, w/ no racial attachments. and i liked her contributions to the show.

BUT i have seen no reason to believe that the max hatters hate her because shes a woman of color. that is kind of ubsurd (although its possible some do, but i'd say theyre in the minority of max hatters). i see their points very clearly about her being an underdeveloped character, perhaps even a token character, all that, i dont feel like listing there reasons for hating her cause i disagree w/ them and theyre already listed above.

now, i disagree w/ all you max haters. i like her. shes funny, she smart, shes likable. sure she could have been more developed (well who on bb couldnt be more developed, please) but in eps like "hidden agenda" and "hooked up", id say alot of insight into her character and life was introduced, more than i can say for alot of the other bb cast.

second, i think her helping terry out was cool. she NEVER crossed the line into becoming even close to a robin character, so i have no idea why everyone makes that connection. and she rounded out the hs cast nicely (and i loved seeing terry's "crew" from time to time of dana, max, howard, blade, chelsea, even nelson). that was a cool aspect.

i mean, didnt we all know a "max" in hs? the smart dorky, yet weirdly cool girl? and i really liked her one liners. and her chick fight in "curse of the kobra" pt 2 was great.

so why hate her??? if they didnt add her, would the show really be any better (not that i dont love it)?? the writting in season 2 was bad, period. max didnt have much fault in that. the stories and villians just sucked, you are making the mistake of lumping max in with the elements that actually made those eps bad.

a GREAT example is the recent ep "unmasked". i didnt like that ep much. i think it was written kind of weirdly, and max acted extremely out of character. the whole "lets go tell dana" think is not her at all. just look at eps like curse of the kobra, wheres terry and hooked up. max respects terry a great deal and respects his secret. unmasked was just a bad story and they used max poorly. it has nothing to do w/ max's overall character as portrayed in the whole series. its comparable to how badly shriek was used in "wheres terry" but i doubt anyone would say he was a bad character because of that.

so, in short, to all you max haters, i say BOOOOOO!!! :) HEHE, i just disagree, but i see your reasoning and doubt you hate her cause shes a minority, (although im sure a small percent do deep down or subconciously resent her for being black, and you know who you are, but i will stop speaking to you....now.) anyway PEACE YALL.

[The Flash]

BatE, who ever said they hated her cause of her skin color? I'm white and I find a ton of white characters to be annoying. Why'd you have to bring that into this? Totally uncalled for......lock the thread before this gets out of hand......

[Jimmy Kustes]

I would have watched Batman Beyond if they used the same villians from BTAS.

[NewMaxFranklin]

I disagree with those who didn't like Terry as Batman. The purpose of Terry was much that of Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. He is less important as a character than as the person the viewer projects his of herself into. It's easier to see youreslf as BB than as Batman. The appeal of the show is imagining yourself in the futuristic Gothan being the understudy to Bruce Wayne and fighting crime in a suped up Batsuit.

As for the Max character and the race issue. I didn't particularly like any of the main characters from BB.

It was rather depressing to see Bruce old, feeble, defeated and living vicariously through a teenager.

There wasn't anytyhing I hated about Terry, but there wasn't anything I really liked about the guy either. He was just sort of there. He didn't have the personality either Dick or Tim posessed and I didn't think he really came into his own as a character.

It seemed cheap to give Terry an Asian girlfriend and an African American sidekick. They should have made Terry half Asian and half Black. THAT would have been something. Dana was such a nothing character anyway.

[NewMaxFranklin]

P.S.

On the race issue: I don't think a thread should be shut down because of someone's feelings. BatE is just saying how he feels. I totaly respect that. It's not like he's lashing out and making accusations. He's expressed himself in a mature and thoughtful fashion. Weather or not his post makes us uncomfortable is representative of our issues, not his.

I can understand where BatE is comming from. I don't presume to know who he is or what he's feeling exactly, but I have had experiences that have made me anticipate racial bias, as well.

I think it's good to talk about this kind of thing. Lots of people want to ignore racism. I believe we should talk out a problem, not ignore it.

I'm half Japanese. But, I look like I could be white, or maybe hispanic, even American Indian (which I am as well,) and I have been treated differently depending on what people assumed my race to be.

I admit, I was happy Terry had an Asian girlfriend. I grew up around a lot of asian girls and the choice seemed natural to me. But, when I realized she would have little to no character development, thus becoming the tolken asian girl, as it were, I was very disappointed.

I disliked Max becasue I thought, "The tolken black girl is getting all this attention. Where's Dana?" So, I can see how BatE would think the hate for Max would be race related. While, in fact, the race of the character had nothing to do with the character. You could change the race of Terry, Dana, Max, whoever and it would chane one word of dialogue or one plot line in the least.

Look at the choice of John Stuart as the GL in JL. Kyle Rayner is far more creative, more interesting and has more of a following than the Stuart character. But, the JL needed someone of a "minority" (not white) race. I say why not make a new character. There have been so many Gl's. Make a new one. He's black, great, develope him!

I'm a little sick of networks throwing in a minor charactor of minority race as a safeguard.

[FLIPMODE]

Hmm, Besides the LAST episode, (which was WAAY out of Character, I can see why it never aired) and besides the Episode where max get's addicted to that Virtuality Machine....I Liked Max.

Very few cartoons can honestly make me laugh. And some of her lines did that for me. Her character was almost like a real person, with enough sarcasm, knowing she's in an animated series.

The Only aspect of Max I HATE, is what I ALWAYS HATE, ...WHEN ANYONE FINDS OUT A BATMAN'S REAL IDENTITY.
That urks the heck out of me. Especially when it happens to Bruce. What happened to those ninja skills? Always some woman finds out. I found Max less of an annoyance than BATGIRL. I always felt Batgirl just get's in the way. And was way too much, how many people do you need? Tim, Dick and Babs? That's a tad too much.

At least Max did'nt get into any action, that's Probably why I dont hate her. IF she had put on a costume to help "Fight", I would have turned off the Tube. Because I cant stand characters like: Huntress, Spoiler, and even the old Batgirl. Not the New one.

[Maxie Zeus]

Be warned. This thread is on probation. Keep it civil, and keep it careful. Think before you write, and think harder before you hit "submit."

[The Flash]

Originally posted by NewMaxFranklin
On the race issue: I don't think a thread should be shut down because of someone's feelings. BatE is just saying how he feels. I totaly respect that.

I understand that, but I have seen "feelings" turn into a full out bash fest on other boards......(other boards, I know I know!!! :D)

[Calhoun07]

I say we all recognize BatE's feelings and respect them, and stand by our guns that we don't hate Max because of her skin color and just move on. There is little gained in debating things like this, really, and I'd hate to see warnings go out and to see a thread closed.

[James]

I've always believed that one shouldn't repeat themselves in forums. If you've said your piece in another thread that you don't need to voice again.

But I will.

I recall have this debate a few months back with Old Maid, BatE, Maxie to name a few. I recall BatE put forward the opinion of race being a factor in people's hatred of Max.

I can't speak for everyone, but as I said then I will say now. Race is not a problem on my part and I think saying that could be a subconscious racial issue is a little unfair, simply because as philosphical viewpoint it covers all the bases. How can I personally dispute a point which implies that my feelings towards Max may be so deep rooted I don't consciously know it?

I'm sure there are people who don't like Max for her race. People who have been brought up with some degree of racial intolerance. I don't doubt it. But to claim this is probably the main reason why people don't like Max and, if you disagree it's probably because the hatred is too deep rooted, is frankly insulting and non productive. I'm happy to see the response to your opinion has been so positive. It's a good community here - please don't under estimate it. :)

There will always be people who judge on the colour of others skin, but let's not too hastily assume that everyone is of that nature - otherwise how are we to get past such intolerance if we suspect everyone of it? All sides must think a like and not judge on the past - but on the future, as ideolgically simplistic that may sound, it is the only way forward

Anyway....

I recall watching Max for the first time and being quite excited. Here was a new plot development. A new character who has broken through the Batman Beyond Bible (no one but Bruce should know Terry's secret). I was disappointed. For a second I wondered if this was going to be a Robin to Terry's Batman - I must confess to fearing this conclusion - I was worried it would take away from the Terry/Bruce relationship.

I need not have worried.

It took the relationship away anyway. Robin aside. I think that's why people on the whole hated her. In the same way that in fan-fiction we all hate Mary Sue characters who just waltz in and take over the show. Where did Bruce go? Where did Gordon go? Where did Dana go? All their plots - rather than evolving got taken over by Max. In effect, she took over the show.

HOWEVER :) , I don't think it was Max which ruined Batman Beyond - or her writing. I don't think she helped matters, but she was the sole suspect.

Series 2 became, dull. The plots centered round the school and became, frankly farcical. The characterization gave way to dull battles and hammy plots. The natural balance between the dark cartoon and kids action toy tie product became inbalanced in favour of the latter.

That was the problem. Near the end of series 2, they did appear to try and rectify this. Where's Terry? Came close. Egg Baby managed to toy with the fomula a little further - intelligently - even the episode where Ace went missing hit the target.. still the problem, to me, does lie with Terry (who I think worked and they would have been a fool to have tried to have done it with a clone of Bruce or even an old Bruce - the kids wouldn't have bought it!), it wasn't the music. It was simply the show lost it's character. The balance fell in favour of the stupid execs. That was a very sad thing to have happened!

Peace,

Everyone

[Blade]

Now this has turned out to be a pretty insightful discussion. Well here's my take.

On the issue of stopping the thread, it shouldn't be done. We are having a civil, intelligent, and interesting conversation about a very touchy issue. This is a good thing, because for many years people did not talk about how they felt and therefore allowed prejudice and racism to live on. At the break of a new millennium, it is time for us to move forward and face these issues head on. As long as the thread doesn't become purposely offensive (i.e the n-word or other racial slurs) then let it continue. Everybody is entitled to an opinion whatever it may be.

On the issue of Max and race, when I (a teenage black female) first came to this board and read some of the things that were being said about her, race was the first thing that came to mind. I found Max to be an enjoyable character and it dumbfounded me when I read such negativity. I surmised that it must be a race thing. And no I don't mean a blatant, "Max is black so I hate her thing." It was a subtle racism, the type of racism that I hate the most. At first people gave no real reasons for disliking her they just said it. What else was I left to conclude? However, once certain members began to give understandable reasons, the race issue slowly drifted to the back of my mind. But upon reading this thread, it surfaced again.
Not meaning to judge anyone, but I am of the opinion that if Max's character looked like Melanie ( the homewrecker!!!), people would love her. That's just how I feel. Now as BatE previously stated, people who dislike Max will continue to dislike Max, and yes, it is a waste of time to try to convince people otherwise. But if you hate her for whatever reason, make it known so people can know where you are coming from.

On the issue of Max's character, I believe it was a good one. What I like most of about her, is that she is real. She reminds me of one of my best friends and little of myself. I believe Max fulfilled the purpose for which she was created. Her purpose, in my opinion, was to expose us to Terry's life away from Batman. See, what we sometimes forget is that Terry is only 17. He has a lot of growing to do, not only as Batman but as a MAN. He shared with Max a lot of things that he felt about his job, Bruce, and basically his life. She kept Terry from letting the darkness that Bruce has consume him. Terry wanted a regular life, along with being Batman, and Max allowed him that. Max is beautiful, energetic, smart character with plenty of attitude. She is the ultimate individual. ( Heck, she has pink hair.) Terry nor Bruce nor society could tell her what to do. But along with those strong qualities, Max had some flaws. Max did get in the way but she always admitted when she was wrong. She was very useful which, to me, makes up for her mistakes. And Max's goof ups added an element to the plot. The viewer wonders can Batman rescue her and defeat the villian? Max filled the show with life, humor, and spontaneity.

*note* sorry to break the flow but i have to say this. I don't think Max literally meant "let's go find Dana and tell her just out of the blue that you are Batman." The manner and tone of voice in which she said that line hinted to me that she was being sarcastic.


The problems I have with Max's role in BB. I personally did not like how the writers made her the third wheel. If they had no intentions of introducing a romance between her and Terry, they should have given her a boyfriend or a crush. My second problem is how the writers just up and introduced her. If they wanted to make her such an instrumental character, they should have at least shown her in the first seaons. It's like Hidden Agenda comes up and Terry and this chick we've never seen before are all of a sudden best friends.

Well I think I can wrap it up now, I've ran out of things to say on those issues (plus my fingers are tired). But anyway, I don't mean to offend anyone, I just tell it like I see it. I think, for the most part this is a wonderful board and i want it to stay that way. Just keep in mind that grossly negative comments about Max that are not backed by understandable reasons are a real turn off to the minorities who check out these boards. I'm not trying to bully anyone into changing their opinions because if you believe then you can say it. Hey let's keep positive discussion open.

Peace

[The Flash]

Thank God this has turned out to be an adult discussion. I was worried that would start a fight. I've seen it happen lots of other times before. (not here, but the these boards have changed a lot over the years) Glad to see things stay peachy! :)

[Calico]

First off, I want to say "BatE please don't go!!!" :(

Second, on the subject of Max, I originally liked her. I completely, totally, and utterly hate Melanie! I couldn't care less what either one of them looked like. Max seemed funny and sharp at first, and certainly helped on occasion. But then I saw "Final Cut". Breaking into that room was stupid, stupid, stupid. Then "Hooked Up", doesn't this girl learn? If she were going to take Batman's world seriously, she wouldn't be this cavalier about her actions. It's all just a lark to her, and that makes her a liability. Plus, I really like Dana, and Max seemed to take Terry's time away from her. I don't think Max ruined the show, or even the episodes she was featured in, but I don't like the direction they took her in.

Now for the biggest mistake in BB: Having Terry become smitten with Melanie Walker. Yuck! :p

Calico

[Nightflower]

No offense, but arguing that the many intelligent posters here don't like Max because of a subconscious objection to her skin color, IMO, is pretty ludicrous.

It is as if I say that because I'm Chinese, and have been discriminated against, I have strong reason to believe that Dana's character has been shunted off and neglected because she is Asian. THAT, by the way, is one of the reasons that some BB fans have for disliking Max's character (Or rather, how the writers developed it).

[The Flash]

I don't know about anyone else but I havn't even thought about the character's races until it was just brought up. ......sorta caught me off guard and I don't see why it needed brought up. That's a very touchy subject, and can sometimes lead to fighting.

[Supermon]

The best parts of Batman Beyond for me were always the ones that had to do with Bruce. It was tough enough for me getting used to Bruce sharing his screen time with Terry much less an unneeded character like Max.

Think about it, what was cooler; Bruce and Terry's conversations about villans and getting out of tough situations or Max and Terry's conversations about teenage agnst?
Well to me its a no-brainer that Bruce is obviously the more interesting character and thanks to Max we were treated to less of him.

As far as the race issue goes...
She had pink hair too, but that didn't make her any more or less worthless in advance the storylines or Terry's Batman.

[DerekPowers]

I think Blade made great points, especially in pointing out that max did indeed fulfull her role on the show. she gave terry someone to vent to. there were times when he needed to get things off his chest, and he couldnt go to bruce, either because it was about bruce or just that bruce is more than double his age. that was a good thing about max.

but i can understand not liking her because her inclusion meant the de-evolution of dana's character. i personally think the writers could have incorporated both into the show equally, but hey.

and on the issue of if max looked like melanie everyone would like her, i totally disagree. even if that is true, i dont really think it is a race thing but just the fact that melanie was obviously drawn HOT, they made her hyper sexual. but if she was in max's role, her body language and dialogue and tone of voice would be different, and her facial expressions, therefore she would be turned into less of an object of sexual desire (um, im exaggerating ofcourse). so i think that argument just doesnt hold up.

but i too was caught off guard many times on the unexplained expressions of dislike for max. maybe she was introduced too suddenly and the writers should have eased her into the show. oh well, like i said, ive always liked her.

anyway, lets not forget what the actual topic of this thread was. this was a great discussion, and if you all want to continue it, by all means (i cant even believe the idea of closing this thread was even brought up, that kind of sickens me seeing as how alot of these issues are very important to discuss and im very glad to see the mature responses AND i totally apprieciate the honesty and straight fowardness of the posts, showing that the posters arent that pc and arent afraid to speak openly about things w/out treating the other posters in an overly sensitive manner), so if you like, continue this discussion, i just thought i'd point out there are other possibilies to dicuss here, but seriously, im not pushing either way, just pointing out!! peace!

[James]

I find as far as Max goes as character - she's okay. Well fleshed, independent, self assured, relatively mature - in so far of Max as a role model, again I think she has a lot going for her. In fact, I'm slighhtly surprised they didn't put her as lead with Zeta in his series (perhaps the execs feared a black lead character - that sort of narrow mindness wouldnt at all surprise me).

As has been said, Max just appeared too quickly and dominated too much. If a show was about Max or we had had Max from the beginning I don't think she'd have had so much resentment. But she came along and started to interfere with a formula that was already working and rather than adding to it, sort of, well, re wrote it.

Pity really, as since it was clear that Dana was going to be horrendously under used another strong lead teen character wouldn't go amiss - especially since Terry has so few friends aside Dana which seemed unlikely for a rebel like Terry.

Max would have fit if they had lead her fit. If she had as much screen time as Dana - or even Bruce - she would have been excepted but she overtook Bruce's screen time and if some fans were struggling enough with Bruce taking a back city to Terry, they were not going to tolerate him taking a back seat to Max.

Peace

[Maxie Zeus]

It is a great pity that The Old Maid is not here to participate. She is far and away the most insightful of the so-called "Max haters." I'm a poor substitute, but I'll give it a try.

(OM, if you're wondering, is having trouble accessing the boards (I'm communicating with her by email). I don't presume to speak for her; instead I will only direct you again to what she has written (http://toonzone.net/worldsfinest/bbeyond/procon1.html) about Max. Read it carefully and slowly; savor her insights and ponder them.)

Usually there are two reasons given for disliking Max. First, one may find her personality off-putting. She is brash, forthright, outspoken, headstrong and sometimes stupid (though, it's always stupidity for the sake of plot contrivance, not a stupidity natural to her character). Such characters are not to all tastes, and even those (like me) who like her personality will find her occasionally grating ("Who's rad, who's bad, who's never been had?!") That is a matter on which people can legitimately disagree, and there isn't much to be said about who we fall in love with and why.

Me, I like Max's personality, for the reasons SJJ just mentioned. I dislike her because, as someone said earlier, she came to function like a 3rd wheel. She unbalanced the show. Instead of being pulled into Terry's extracurricular world, she pulled him back into the high school. She displaced Dana. Her intrusions became plot contrivances. In too many stories she became the tail wagging the dog.

Now, to call her introduction "BB's worst blunder" is in a sense misleading. Max didn't do this all by herself. Because Terry was in high school, and because the network wanted a younger-skewing show, BB was always in danger of falling into bizarre teen melodramas. Terry's having a romantic life was always going to be a source of story problems. Eventually the writers (and Terry) would have to figure out what to do with her. And plot contrivances are always a danger.

Max, really, merely served as the lightning rod which pulled all these dangers in her direction. Since Max is Terry's contact in high school, she's the one that pulls him into those situations. Don't know what to do with Dana? Easy, just have Max interrupt them. Need someone to be stupid so Terry can save them (or, need someone to give Terry the answer)? Here comes Max.

Max, whatever her personal virtues, became the all-purpose crutch (especially during the 2nd season) which let the writers skirt the hard problems. She was a temptation to creative sin. As such, in blaming Max we are actually blaming the writers and their failures; it's just that Max is standing exactly where the artillery gets directed.

So I admit: There is something terribly unfair about treating Max as our scapegoat--the innocent thing that is loaded with the sins of the BB creative staff and driven into the wilderness. But that's because it is much easier to say "It's Max's fault" than to say "It's Bruce Timm's fault; it's Paul Dini's fault; it's Hilary Bader's, and Rich Fogel's, and Stan Berkowitz's fault."

[Maxie Zeus]

I am very pleased to see the level of discourse staying high-minded and civil. My congratulations to all.

But remember to be careful. It's still nitroglycerin we're tossing around here. Don't get lazy.

[Calhoun07]

I am wondering to Blade and BatE why would you just assume we didn't like Max because she was black? And why are you assuming that the Max haters are all white? That's just as racist. And this is not a rhetorical question, I am really curious to know why.

I've hated characters in TV shows and cartoons that were white as well. It's not about race, it's about how the writers of the show treat the character.

So perhaps I could argue that Max was created to add cultural diversity to the show, and the writers made her a token third wheel because they were too lazy to come up with anything better? There are many different ways of looking at this and blaming things on race when the race issue doesn't reall matter. She just wasn't a well written character for the most part. But that's not to say I hated her, just didn't care for her as much as the other characters.

As as far as her comments being sarcastic? Well, people often communicate their true feelings thru humor to shield themselves against possible backlash with laughter. If she's even thinking about telling people about Terry, even if it's joking on the surface, there is more beneath the surface that we never see.

[Ruffian]

The overdone teen problem of the week eps.

I personally liked the idea of Bruce handing the mantle of the Bat over to Terry, though not willingly. Terry took it, but at the end earned it. His relationship with Bruce is totally different from Nightwing and Robin. I feel they get along better, possibly from Bruce's experience and Terry discovering who he is. :)

[Failure]

I'm just wondering where did the Max vs. Melanie thing pop up? I dont really see a correlation between the two. Personally, i wasnt a big fan of Melanie's anyway. I didnt dislike her, she was just sort of meh. But I can see how people might like her because she parallels as Terry's catwoman.

As for the dislike of Max, again, I htink it comes back to the way she was written, the way her personality was shaped, and everything else everyone mentioned. I think many people here would prolly like Static (the character, not necessarily the show for whatever reasons) more than Max, because Static is written as a likeable character. I really dont think race has too big a part to do with it.

[Blade]

In response to calhoun 07:

BatE has posted her last so i guess I'm the only one left to answer your question.

I think I ( BatE also) made it quite plain why we felt the dislike of Max was racial. Speaking for myself, I said gross negativity directed toward a character that seemed to be ok, with out understandable reasons left me only one conclusion. I came to this board and read all the post that were against Max. These post never really explained the reasons the individual disliked Max. Because Max is black ( and lets face it racism exists every where) I concluded that there may be and I repeat MAY BE some race issues. That how the racism idea came about.

As for assuming everyone who hates Max is white, it's something I never did. I think (I think) it is safe to say that the majority of the people on this board are white. Most but not all. I think it is safe to say that this board has a few Canadians on here too. There are a few Asians too. Since we don't have under our board names "Hey, I'm (blank)" I'm left to guess. (Believe me, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and there is only one thing I claim to be 100% sure of and that's my religious beliefs). And please don't think I sit at my computer pondering the race of every single person who posts. I wonder a lot of things about you guys. But the net is a dangerous place so it's not like we can share certain information.

And whoever said that I was only speaking to the white people on this board? Hispanics, Asians, and Blacks can be racist too you know.

Basically, no matter where I go or what I do, I like to know who or what I'm dealing with. I don't mean anything by it.

Hope I answered your question calhoun07. Happy to answer many more anytime. :)

Peace

[Salvor]

Originally posted by The Flash
I don't know about anyone else but I havn't even thought about the character's races until it was just brought up. ......
Neither have I! I was astounded by the issue, I must say... yet again, I find Blade's views to be more understandable (and more fair) than Bate's. Still I strongly disagree with them :) ... but as a big Voltaire fan, I relish hearing other people's opinions, even if I can't agree with them.

"These post never really explained the reasons the individual disliked Max."

First this is not true. I've been on these boards for a while. Longer than you have. I'm not boasting about being an "oldie" or anything like that but let's facts, you weren't there when the discussions about Max took place. What strikes me actually is the fact that us being racists was the first idea that cropped up in your mind. I'm not saying you're a racist, just do recall prejudice plagues us all.

"I am of the opinion that if Max's character looked like Melanie ( the homewrecker!!!), people would love her."

Wow this is so not true... I couldn't stand Pamela Anderson in Baywatch :cool:! Seriously, I think you're mixing a great deal of questions here. I never cared about any of those girls' aspects. You can't take for granted the idea that the first glaring feature of a certain character is his/her skin color. What kind of picture of the human mind is that? Don't worry, you keep talking about it and I agree on that: I do know how hard it is to cast aside prejudice. My question is: do you? Your view seems to be as slanted as that you denounce.

To Maxie: I couldn't agree with you more. The writers are the only ones responsible for this mess :) . Besides, Max is a cartoon character... how can anyone really "hate" a cartoon character?

Again, this post is NOT meant to lash out against Blade, I just disagree.

[Blade]

True, I haven't really been on these boards for too long. However, I read a lot of the posts before I registered on here. And I visit this board often but rarely post (just when they get interesting like this thread). My lack of posting is due to my rigorous course load in school. So yeah I haven't been here for awhile, but I've been here long enough.

A lot of people find it odd that we can sit up here and debate the race issues in cartoons. I've noticed a lot of people say they never even paid any attention to the race of the characters.

If you really sit and think about it, people who are represented on tv all the time rarely notice that they are there. However, when you have a group of people who rarely have big roles in cartoons, those people tend to notice the few that they have.

I have learned in many classes that there are 3 things you recognize about a person. 1) race 2) sex 3)age. Paying attention to race is something that almost comes natural to me. Probably because of some experiences I've had in my life. Probably because your skin is the largest organ of the body.

So yes I have a natural habit of taking notice of race. I feel that there is nothing wrong with that, as long as my actions toward you did not change. I believe in treating everyone with generic respect. In other words, you could have just really insulted me, but if i see you trying to open a door with a heavy load, I'll help you. That's just me.

So are my "views as slanted as the once I denounce"? Maybe. Maybe not. I think they are justifiable for a person in my position.

Once again,
Peace, one love :)

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Blade
BatE has posted her last so i guess I'm the only one left to answer your question.

I think I ( BatE also) made it quite plain why we felt the dislike of Max was racial. Speaking for myself, I said gross negativity directed toward a character that seemed to be ok, with out understandable reasons left me only one conclusion. I came to this board and read all the post that were against Max. These post never really explained the reasons the individual disliked Max. Because Max is black ( and lets face it racism exists every where) I concluded that there may be and I repeat MAY BE some race issues. That how the racism idea came about.

Peace

I guess what I was wondering even more was do you consider the same if people post their disappointments with characters that are white? For example, the majority of the posters on this board do not like Family Guy, a show which I think is pretty funny, but the thought never occured to me that the reason why these people may not like Family Guy is because they are being racist. And most of the people who posted their dislike for Family Guy were as vague in their opinions about the show, so I never really knew why they were bashing it so bad. And like wise, if you read posts that are vague and negative towards a white character, would you be as inclined to draw the same conclusions?

[sun]

Writers, were not up to par for what ever reason, could not provide the scripts necessary to get to the level of BATS.maybe there wasn't enough money to finance the project adequately..and ..Anaimation. It just wasn't good enough for me, then I am of the old school I guess, the first BATS series was uncomparable, just so great, in animation, writing, music and character development, that the new BB would have to to at least come close to the old BATS. It never did. I cared about
Terry and Bruce Wayne, and even the girl friend with those big eyes, but in character development, where was the kind of effort that gave an entire script to showing how Bulluck lived in that old beat up apartment, where the landlord was out to get him....Think about it friends, will the new DTVs have that kind of effort? Oh,. I might add ,that at the same time BATS was in production, Animaniacs was being made, That kind of talent is probalby there, but who will pay for it, and team it up again...thanks for reading this...Stuart

[sun]

I think Max was one of the strongest characters on the show, to be honest, I thought the fact that she was Afro American was just "interesting" thats all.. She was strong, intelligent, in some ways much more believeable than Batgirl, someone you would like...You could see they were trying to develop that character..I am sorry that they took the show off. I don't care if it wasn't up to par, it was there for us to see and enjoy. That is what was important to me. It was there!!!!!!Just Like the Last Star WArs, it was there...and there will soon be another, and some more BATS, something to look forward to....Staurt

[Blade]

Well, no I wouldn't have came to the same conclusion. For one, I still think (think) that the majority of the posters are white. If white people talk how much they hate a white cartoon (Family Guy) then.....
I wouldn't come to the conclusion of racism. It just doesn't fit. (And yes there are exceptions, but i'm not debating exceptions.)

Peace, love, and soul :)

[James]

Originally posted by Blade

So are my "views as slanted as the once I denounce"? Maybe. Maybe not. I think they are justifiable for a person in my position.

Once again,
Peace, one love :)

I may be very out of place here :o , but surely that's a dangerous standpoint when you justify your position of mistrust.

IMHO, it's good to be aware of your background, and it's good to admit that you find that some of your experiences makes certain racial issues more sensitive - however you shouldn't feel the past justifies your perspective, that is when you become slanted. I don't mean to preach, but we should always try to better ourselves.

I might be taking your text too literally but if you are aware that your personal philosophy is being tainted by your past, then you should do your best to look for the good as well as the bad.

I'd like to think the reaction that this thread has received has been good. I'm sorry if it's meant that it's been yourself and BatE on one side of the debate and pretty much everyone else on the other, but it is quite a generic statement about race that batE was making. On the positive, I'd like to think that while your past may have affected your racial outlook, I hope you take something away from this board that will lighten your perspective - if only by a fraction. :)

Another comment which I know Salvor brought up is previous threads.
I've been here a while now and i've never once felt that then hatred for Max had anything to do with race. In fact, in one particular thread where BatE mentioned this, we all talked and BatE seemed to agree that it was unlikely afterall (as I recall anyway). I was surprised when this topic re-emerged.

Also, racial issues aside (and someone brought this up in a previous Bat Thread) that they couldn't see why Max wasn't paired off with Max or another boyfriend. I don't see why this had to be so important. I know relationships are important for some teenagers, often because they feel it's something they should be doing. Max never struck me as a lady who needed any of that burden and would find a guy when she was ready. I think it was cool to have a character in Batman Beyond who could be a girl and be just good mates with Terry - I think thats a far better role model than Dana is. Shame the writers OTT Max to the detriment of all other characters including Bruce. Bad move!

I say I hate Max, but I suppose really I don't. I don't think many of us do. We just hate the way she was used to lighten the cartoon by execs ('and lessen some of the scenes with old guy...') and then dominate much of the character interaction. It's the writing we hate, not the character.

Peace all.

[Maxie Zeus]

Note: I mentioned in a previous post that The Old Maid has been viewing this thread with interest, but due to technical difficulties is unable to actually post. Well, she sent me the following note, asking that I post it for her in this thread.

I've been reading this thread & guess I wasn't surprised to see Max Gibson and Death of Blight were the top two contenders. But these are both just symptoms of the same illness.

The worst mistake in BB was not considering the consequences of one's actions. There are no other mistakes, only elaborations of this one.

This is true of the characters, of the writing, and of the busybody suits.

For some viewers Max comes to mind because she's the one most likely to propose ideas/take actions without comprehending the likely outcome. However I can think of multiple situations that also show lack of comprehension, or even common sense.

Fans have mentioned the Bruce and Barbara affair. What weird impulse was responsible for that theme? Was the script too short? Did someone have a 3 A.M. idea while staring at a 4 A.M. deadline? Those aren'tgood enough reasons to ruin two characters' reputations. Whatever the intention, someone did not consider how the fans would react.

Ending the series with a controversial episode is another example of Not Thinking. Was "Unmasked" worth waiting nine months for? That's open to debate. One thing is certain : it shows a reckless disregard for those fanboys who (metaphorically speaking) put food on the corporate
table.

Ending the series too soon ... definitely a mistake, and another example of Not Thinking.

I've heard the Terry/Melanie relationship called BB's worst mistake. Believe me, I never entertained sweet illusions about this character. "With me it's always been now or never," she says. What kind of lonely-victim routine is that? All it does it make me wonder if she's ever needed shots ...

Whether people like/dislike Melanie, this story arc was one of the few that DID think things through. Melanie always had the potential to destroy her family, and that's what she did. She pretended to be so lost and lonely, but there was something else there and nothing would induce me to turn my back on her.

I've heard the cartoon-magic of the Batsuit called the worst mistake. Another variation on the big one, Not Thinking. It's a pretty brazen variation, though, and some of the worst arguments the fans have ever had have been on this subject. Often the suit makes Terry look fake.

I've heard the Death of Blight called the worst mistake. Blight had a good Dorian Gray thing going. One could even say Paxton did. I do think Blight's death warped the series, but I could have applauded if it had had real consequences. Nature abhors a vacuum, so someone should have stepped up to the plate to take his place. Of the possibilities, Paxton is the richest; Curare the most skilled; Spellbinder the smartest; the mobs had strength of numbers; Shriek is somewhat crazy; and Inque is the one foe Terry is truly frightened of. But in the second season Spellbinder's a purse-snatcher; Curare's an idiot (c'mon, she doesn't even know if her target is a woman or a man); and Paxton's pawing pretty girls.

These are the heirs to Arkham and Stonegate? Where have all the monsters gone?

I totally agree that Max gets blamed for some things that the Death of Blight actually did. Where fans get confused, I think, is that Max is the prime beneficiary of his death. It certainly wasn't Batman.

So many characters were compromised because of lack of thought :

*We could have watched latchkey-kid Matt grow up and get in trouble if we needed teen angst (showing how Terry is losing touch with his family)

*Mary for a cheerleader (she didn't give Terry much choice about taking this job)

*Bruce as resident genius, teacher, etc.

*Dana to force Terry to choose. And not in that whiny way, but with the serious, honest question: "It's always going to be like this, isn't it?" Then she walks away. When we see her again, it's always Terry trying to win her back. Never the other way around.

*A master criminal to focus Terry. Such creations (Joker, Blight) are by definition high-maintenance characters. They need charisma, or at least dominance, to hold their position.

Unfortunately Max is also a high-maintenance character. So we have too many high-maintenance characters in one place : a master criminal, Batman (if written well), and Max too? Too much intensity. Perhaps the powers-that-be thought that if SOMEONE in the episodes was intense and dominating, it didn't matter who it was or what that person was doing. I did want to root for Max, but she didn't make it easy for me. I had hoped the sidekick would be Jared. He and Terry had more in common, and exposure (say, in the locker room) seemed more believable and/or inevitable. When I first saw Max my reaction was, "Okay, let's see what she can do." But when I found out, it didn't remind me of Batman

I've heard viewers say Max is annoying, then leave it at that. Truth be told, I have found some of her lines and situations screamingly funny. But do I watch Batman to watch Funny? No. Batman is at his best as a psychological drama, commenting on the human condition. One light in the darkness, so to speak. Also, I have heard every single Robin, every Batgirl, called annoying. Some people call Terry annoying. We need to look beyond that. Sidekicks end up with lines that don't belong in Batman's mouth. So where do we draw the line that a certain speech or tagline doesn't belong in the sidekick's mouth either? By looking beyond the words to the intentions and actions. If a sidekick should say one thing then do another, that's worth a note. If a sidekick says something hurtful or dangerous, that's worth a note. It gets worse when a character acts on those words. (E.g. Max declares her intention to bypass Terry's decision on a specific matter, then does so.) It's Max Gibson's actions that make me not trust her.

What I notice in writing is, "Does this set off my B.S. detector?" Certainly when Max, a total stranger, dropped out of the sky with such a close bond to Terry and with so many abilities, that was bizarre. Then her writing was almost bipolar. Her highs were so high and her lows were so low. She passed through the happy medium from time to time but had trouble staying there. And to be fair, the happy medium is boring. But the result was that in the effort to make Max as versatile and interesting as possible, there came too many duplication of services. Hence the reductions in the other characters.

The B.S. detector says :

*Shriek : yes

*Curare : no

*Melanie : yes

*Jared Tate : no

*Mr. & Mrs. Tate : yes (She's a shopaholic and he's a stone-cold traitor, for crying out loud! Why? Because he'd rather not tell her there's not enough money. Whereas the first thing out of Jared's mouth was "What can I do to help?" Appreciate the gesture, but you can't fix this.)

*Dana : no. She's not smart enough to be duplicitous.

*Babs Gordon : yep. Discussion for another day.

*Sam Young : no. What I want to know is, where was this guy? He put an international arms dealer behind bars. He outlawed splicing. He put nine organized crime bosses behind bars (or more, if the ones captured in "Once Burned" were not part of his operations). Until Ian Peek did a little witness tampering in "Sneak Peek" this man accomplished everything he ever set out to do. Personally I think he's better at his job than his wife. Now THIS was a great role model. How many lines did he get, about ten? And how many episodes did he get? None. Zero. Were the robot stories and Batman-beating-up-teenager stories good enough to replace him? I don't think so.

So .......... that's my take on BATMAN BEYOND's worst mistake. All the things we disliked most were caused by Not Thinking About the Consequences.

Now there's one more thing I'd like to add : I hope batE won't go. I have always found her to be intelligent and respectful and she asks great questions. I really enjoy her posts. Also, if people feel they can't be honest about their likes and dislikes ... Look, we've got Robin fans & unfans ; Batgirl fans & unfans ; BB fans & unfans. I'd hate to see a Maxfan feel unwelcome. We've got lots of them! Between 20-25 at last count.

If someone said, "After the last episode, I'm outta here to watch a series that isn't dead in WB's eyes" well, then we'd know we might still see them on the Animation/General Topics board, or the JL or Comics or FanFics board and enjoy their company. Several fans have so plainly. Terry was the only superhero they enjoy, and when he's gone, they're gone. But I hope no one would leave feeling miserable.

--The Old Maid

[Maxie Zeus]

The thread is beginning to veer off-topic, into a pure discussion of race and racism. While I admire the level at which the discussion is being handled, I have to remind everyone that extreme care must be taken, particularly when people start laying out personal details of their lives as support for their position. Once that starts happening, criticism of another's position can easily be mistaken for criticism of the other person, and lead to anger and hurt feelings all around.

[Robin2099]

Well, I've been staying away from these boards for awhile due to being busy with school or work. But here's my take on BB's worst mistakes.
1. Bad Villians: With the exception of Blight, Inque, and The Royal Flush Gang, there were no good villians in the show that could possibly hold a candle to Joker, Two-Face, etc. What we got instead were lousy one shot villians for the most part like Rat Boy and Armory.
2. Too many close calls: I love Terry but every single episode, he was almost going to die at the hands fo the villian before getting soem narrow escape. This made Bruce look like an idiot for not training Terry more.
3.No direction in the storylines: After the first season, the story lines had no direction for the most part. I agree that killing of Blight was the worst thing they could do. Blight had a good Lex Luthorish vibe going. After he died, none fo the storylines really went anyway or we that good with few exceptions.
4.Introducing Max: Max wasn't a bad character to start with, but she quickly wore out her welcome. She would of been better of being used occasionally, like in an Oracle kind of role than the one she had. Like evryone else said, the more Max was involved, the more it made Bruce seem not as imprtant. The only thing he did was watch Terry when he went out to be Batman.
Well, these are just my opinions about where BB had problems. Even though I still loved the show.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Blade
Well, no I wouldn't have came to the same conclusion. For one, I still think (think) that the majority of the posters are white. If white people talk how much they hate a white cartoon (Family Guy) then.....
I wouldn't come to the conclusion of racism. It just doesn't fit. (And yes there are exceptions, but i'm not debating exceptions.)

Peace, love, and soul :)

I just want to know if we have given you any new food for thought here. And BatE for that matter. I think that for the most part people don't have a negative reaction to somebody on TV based on their race. Just as somebody may make a statement that they don't like a white character on TV and not really go into why so they may make it about a character of ethnic origin, but to do so doesn't mean that they are being racist against either character.

I would almost be inclined to say that to think white people have this negative reaction to a character because they are black is akin to reverse racism. I am not saying that's what you were doing, but as a victim of reverse racism myself (and I won't get into that!) I know it's real and not to be taken lightly.

I just hope that both sides of the fence here understand the other side a little better. If we are to build an intelligent conversation on this subject, then I hope that is the result. But I would hope that if Blade and BatE have been witness to such rasism as they suspected when people started to dislike Max that they could see beyond that and not to expect that from everybody. Like wise, just because I have been the victim of reverse racism, it doesn't mean I have a particular bias or expectaion for certain people to just treat me bad for the same reason one other person did.

[sun]

There was a point, at the first ep of Shriek, when there was no sound on the TV, and the action took place without it, that I really respected the creators of BB.. That fight, was something that I had never seen on TV or movies. With all the negativity that has been floted here, and I have not read it all, I want to say, that I thought that those few moments without sound, and just letting the action move itself, were brilliant.. Stuart

[superfreak]

The biggest mistake was that Max turned into an annoying goofball. I think that she has alot of potential as a character. I like to see her in the role of Oracle supplying information to Terry and as Terry's close confidant. Also I like to see that the high school angle get dropped. There is nothing great about being a highschooler.

[Blade]

While I have a minute: Sorry I didn't respond to anymore posts. I've been sorta busy now that Christams is only a few days away. I've been entertaining company (darn relatives, nah kidding) so i haven't had time to post. So in my few minutes of free time i'll say this. It 's been interesting to kick this subject around with you guys. I think I've said all I need to on this subject, so there's no use in me beating the dead horse. Hopefully we'll have another topic like this that will spawn such interesting debate. I have taken none of this personally and I am not offeneded in anyway. Hope you all have a Merry Christmas! :)

Been great,
Blade

[Alexander]

Well, "Bruce & Babs" is at the top of my list, but i think Barbara was animated terrible in BB.
She just looked like Jim gordon with long hair and lipstick. They didn't really try to make her look like an old version of Babs in TNBA.
What i meen is, it is biologically impossible to go from TNBA Babs to BB Barbara. They made some really big mistakes there.
Look at Barb's chin in TNBA. She has a round face that ends in a pointy chin. Now in BB Barbara suddenly has a squaire formed chin! There is absolutely no biological possibility that that could happen! And then her eyes. In TNBA Barbara's eyes are big, round, and go up at each side of her face. Then in BB Barbara has tiny squaire formed eyes. wich again is completely impossible!
And then her height. In TNBA Barbara is 5'3". A short cutie. Then in BB she is potrayed as a tall lady. Wich again is not possible cause we all know that Babs is 23 years old in TNBA, and 23 year old girls don't grow anymore!!! Notice how Barbara stands next to the Batgirl costume in "A Touch of what's-her-name" and stands head and shoulders above the costume...

Anyhoo, For some reason i don't want to know her breasts in BB are also 3 times bigger then they were in TNBA.

[Cassandra]

I agree, there was a lot about this series that is extemely depressing to longtime bat-fans (of the cartoon or otherwise)
I'm definately not saying that the world of animated batman is fair, but a big part of me was in a constant cringe to see Bruce's life end up as such a collossal pile of crap.I recall when I first watched Rebirth, and saw all the costumes in glass cases lined up against the wall I nearly had a heart attack, it sucked so bad. I can't imagine I'm the only one who took it the wrong way. In the comic books it means something different when Batman puts your costume in a glass case.

I also thought the Wayne/Powers- Blight storyline ended way too soon.I was certain I must have missed a few episodes. At the time I was startled how rapidly such a major storyline progressed. Surely I had just not seen all of them yet. No such luck.

However, I dissagree with those of you who disliked Terry, as well as those who disliked Max. I thought she was fine, maybe a little annoying, and I really liked Terry.

[Batman 80]

The only reason I didn't like Max was because I found her very annoying. I myself am black and couldn't bring myself to like her. Her voice got on my nerves and I got tired of her trying to help Terry out. That's what Bruce is for.

[DerekPowers]

i must admit, the whole bruce/barb relationship didnt sit exactly right with me. as i explain in my previous post on this thread, i think the biggest mistake of the series was the death of blight.

i agree w/ old maid, that the writers didnt think of the consequences of their actions, but that could be summed up as bad writing, which ran rampant in many episodes (to be fair, the series had its amazing eps, ones that are on par w/ btas, imo).

but the bruce/barb relationship wouldnt be so strange to me if barbara didnt tell terry that all she and dick had was puppy love, dating on and off in college, and thats it. at least they should have made barb and dick have a serious relationship, then once dick moved, she hooked up w/ bruce. i mean, dick and barb deserve more than just "puppy love", imo. they make a great couple and should have been taken more seriously. peace.

[SSNTails]

Originally posted by NewMaxFranklin
I disagree with those who didn't like Terry as Batman. The purpose of Terry was much that of Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. He is less important as a character than as the person the viewer projects his of herself into. It's easier to see youreslf as BB than as Batman. The appeal of the show is imagining yourself in the futuristic Gothan being the understudy to Bruce Wayne and fighting crime in a suped up Batsuit.

When I start my career, I've GOTTA get a BB license and make a *good* BB video game. :D



It was rather depressing to see Bruce old, feeble, defeated and living vicariously through a teenager.


Not at all! There's lots of time when he kicked bad guys heinies! Ever see "Disappearing Inque"? That end part was awesome, with the music and all!

For those of you that haven't seen it, I've made a tiny video clip of a portion of the end part:

http://www.treeweasel.com/~SSNTails/oldbruce.avi
(You'll need Divx 4.x to play it - www.divx.com )

[sun]

Yes there were so many things wrong with Batman Beyound, but would you rather have it on, or off? With all the fine ananlysis here on what was wrong, I will admit that I miss it. I do not have cable, so I cannot see anyting on the Cartoon Network, Justice League and so on. So I miss BB even with all the faults....as was pointed out a few notes back, there were some very good eps...It is like Star Wars, so many have pointed out the faults of Ep I, but I was glad to see it. AT least it was there to look at. and that is how I felt about BB.. Yes, almost all the points are valid, especially about some of the poor writing, continuity, and animation; but at least it was there...Good Luck and health to all...Stuart

[Alexander]

I think the whole BB series schould have ended with the 23 year-old Barbara Gordon waking up and saying "My god! i hope i never ever have such a nightmare again"

Or better!! Make it something like a "Nic Cage Family Man" ending, where Barbara from BB meets an Angel who brings her back to TNBA explaining it was all a glimps of what might happen to her, and that she now has a chance to chanche it all at the age of 23.

That way we can continue with new seasons of TNBA and leaving BB behind us.
And basicly we still can! Cause BB really is infact nothing more then a glimps of what might happen!
And personally, i'm a bit irritated when people talk about BB as if that is the present time.
Like " What HAPPEND between Bruce and Babs bla bla bla bla bla" or "Nightwing LEFT gotham because bla bla bla"
Some of you don't seem to realize that BB is in the FUTURE!!! A Possible future, i add. You guys talk as if the future is the past!! It schould be "What's GOING to happen after TNBA"
Quit looking at TNBA/present-day from BB's point of view!

[austin norsworthy]

for me it's biggest mistakes were..

1. this whole "barbara loves bruce" crap.
2. some of the villans were not givin enogh background. like spellbinder just does it for money? and we never know why shierk went along with powers plan to began with. and of corse, curare.
3. I think terry sould have had a robin. like jason todd with a tim drake personality, or that girl from "the dark knight returns.

[SSNTails]

The reason Shriek followed Power's plan is because Powers bought Shriek's company when it was falling into bankruptcy, and Powers holds the paycheck.

As for spellbinder, in the episode "Spellbound", he was using kids to steal items from rich people. In "Hooked Up", he got kids to steal things for him. In "Eyewitness", it was a revenge-type game.

[austin norsworthy]

Yeah, it just seems like he was trying to help socity with his sound suit, {which was a bad idea because it would have been stolen and used for crimes.} and all of a sudden destroying stuff. Ya gotta admit, the sound suit WAS pretty cool.