"Gargoyles Protect"

[Ian]

I’ve been pondering this gargoyle maxim for a while, and I’m left wondering why, for a series in which most of the characters show shades of grey, Weisman decided to make the species innately protective—a species of super-heroes, if you will. It seems like something he was forced to add in order to be able to make it a cartoon, not something he’d do himself if he’d had the choice. As it is, he did wonders with it, as he did with most limits imposed on him, but still, it makes one wonder how would it have gone if protecting hadn’t been such an important part of the gargoyle self, and people like Demona had been more common, instead of the exception.

So…discuss.

[GregX]

I’ve been pondering this gargoyle maxim for a while, and I’m left wondering why, for a series in which most of the characters show shades of grey, Weisman decided to make the species innately protective—a species of super-heroes, if you will. It seems like something he was forced to add in order to be able to make it a cartoon, not something he’d do himself if he’d had the choice. As it is, he did wonders with it, as he did with most limits imposed on him, but still, it makes one wonder how would it have gone if protecting hadn’t been such an important part of the gargoyle self, and people like Demona had been more common, instead of the exception.

So…discuss.
The protection was Greg's own idea, and not something forced on him. He had so much freedom on that show, more than most people thing.

From his point of view, the protection stems from being territorial. And it evolved over time, what was first protecting the castle later extended to protecting the island of Manhattan. Not Brooklyn, Queens or the Bronx It's mostly instinct, but it's adaptable. These are rational, thinking creatures also.

It seems to differ clan by clan. The London Clan wasn't really protecting people, until the end of MIA. The Mayan Clan was mostly protecting their territory and forest, and the Ishimuran Clan had a pact with the humans of the area.

And as Greg's plan for other clans showed, different clans would have had different ideas, different protectorates. Hardly a race of super heroes.

I can't imagine them not being territorial, most animal species are. I think like any other species, they'd be trying to survive.

[Ian]

From his point of view, the protection stems from being territorial. And it evolved over time, what was first protecting the castle later extended to protecting the island of Manhattan. Not Brooklyn, Queens or the Bronx It's mostly instinct, but it's adaptable. These are rational, thinking creatures also.
I agree, but I have to take note: there are several key differences between defending a castle and defending New York, making the trasnsition feel unnatural, for me. For one, the 994 gargoyles protected the castle, from without, not within;the exact opposite of what they do in Manhattan. Second, while the gargoyles' survival was directly intertwined with protecting the castle--there's an undercurrent of selfishness present. The opposite can be said of protecting Manhattan, where they garner little reward for their work, which becomes more dangerous the more they do it.

Still, I can't help but wonder what Gargoyles would be like if they had remained in their season 1 mindset, where every action taken had to be for their benefit.

[DTaina]

I agree, but I have to take note: there are several key differences between defending a castle and defending New York, making the trasnsition feel unnatural, for me. For one, the 994 gargoyles protected the castle, from without, not within;the exact opposite of what they do in Manhattan. Second, while the gargoyles' survival was directly intertwined with protecting the castle--there's an undercurrent of selfishness present. The opposite can be said of protecting Manhattan, where they garner little reward for their work, which becomes more dangerous the more they do it. Hey, Big Bad! Long time no see! :D I saw the thread and I just had to reply. Thank you thank you thank you. Anyway...

Keep in mind that the gargoyles only protected Castle Wyvern and then the Clock Tower in season one; protecting it from outsiders and for their own survival. But their Castle = Clock Tower = Manhattan (and eventually the world) transition was all but unnatural. Notice in Reawakening that Goliath's deeply depressed, Hudson uses the gargoyle saying as an excuse to stay out of the cold, and the clan is taking it literally. Maybe they thought that since they don't live in a castle anymore, and they live above a police station, then why bother protecting it? Goliath frowns at this, mostly because he's forgotten what the point is either.

After the massacre and up until that point, they've focused on their own survival, but that's not enough for a gargoyle. They are born to protect. By the end of the episode, they've realized that survival isn't enough, as evidenced by Goliath's speech to Demona. I'll quote...

Coldstone/Othello: "Is that all there is for us? Mere survival?"
Demona: "Isn't that enough?"
Goliath: "No. Gargoyles protect. It is our nature, our purpose; to lose that is to be corrupt, empty, lifeless."

See, for Goliath, and for most gargoyles, it's not enough to survive, which is what they had been doing up until then. They have to protect. It's just their nature and their purpose, as Goliath said. It gives their lives meaning. Without it, then life is empty. And there are many problems in Manhattan that they could help with. So, they vow to protect "all who live there, human and gargoyle alike."

Why? Well... "we are what we are." ;)


Still, I can't help but wonder what Gargoyles would be like if they had remained in their season 1 mindset, where every action taken had to be for their benefit.A highly depressed group of defenders searching for meaning and only looking after their own survival would've made for a pretty depressing show, I think. :P

So, any questions? Bring 'em on! Woo! :P

[ClockStomper]

"Gargoyles protect" makes for an interesting storyline because Goliath and Demona represent opposite ideologies of this same concept.
Goliath believes it's a Gargoyles' duty to protect everyone within their homeland.

Demona believes the protection applies only to Gagoyles, and their greatest threat, humanity, must be wiped out inorder to achieve this end.

[Ian]

DTaina: Hey, Big Bad! Long time no see! I saw the thread and I just had to reply. Thank you thank you thank you. [...]Why? Well... "we are what we are."
I guess I didn't explain myself clearly enough (Btw, hi! How was The Gathering?): I'm not talking about reasons within the storyline, which you're referring to and I somewhat understand; I'm referring to reasons why the writers decided to make protectiveness a trait of Gargoyles. Was it in order to make a thematic contrast, as Clockstomper suggests? Was it practical--a way to ensure that they would have antagonists to fight? Did they perhaps think that the target audience wouldn't accept selfish protagonists?

As for reasons within the story, I just had an epiphany: I was thinking that the Gargoyles protected the castle for purely selfish reasons, because it was their home; but now I realize that's only a partial reason: they protect the castle, and only the castle, because it's where all their friends/acquaintances live.

However, the situation in Manhattan was different: the Gargoyles may live in the clock tower, but nobody else does. It may be their home, but the Manhattan is where all their friends live. Hence, they protect it.

However, while this may be the way Goliath saw it, it doesn’t seem to be the rest of the way Gargoyle culture as a whole saw it. The London Gargoyles protected out of selfishness, and from Reawakening, one can assume Hudson did too. So, in the end, I guess the protecting thing is something akin to the reason why guys stare at women’s breasts: we do it, yet we don’t know why.


Clockstomper: "Gargoyles protect" makes for an interesting storyline because Goliath and Demona represent opposite ideologies of this same concept. [...]

Demona believes the protection applies only to Gagoyles, and their greatest threat, humanity, must be wiped out in order to achieve this end.

[DTaina]

I guess I didn't explain myself clearly enough (Btw, hi! How was The Gathering?): I'm not talking about reasons within the storyline, which you're referring to and I somewhat understand; I'm referring to reasons why the writers decided to make protectiveness a trait of Gargoyles. Was it in order to make a thematic contrast, as Clockstomper suggests? Was it practical--a way to ensure that they would have antagonists to fight? Did they perhaps think that the target audience wouldn't accept selfish protagonists?

That's okay (and no, I couldn't go to the Gathering... [sniff sniff]). Oh, you're asking for in-show reasons! Well, they based it on stories about gargoyles from around the world. People put them outside to ward off evil spirits and to protect them from evil. Their grotesque appearance helped them complete this task. Thus gargoyles became protectors. :P

Their presence alone helped keep unwanted people away. Sometimes, kings had gargoyles carved to put them outside to fool people into thinking they had real gargoyles. It almost always worked, so indeed, they protected the castle day and night.

Why did they make gargoyles protectors? I don't know. The show went through three years of evolving and changing before settling on what we have now. I guess the idea evolved along the way and no one really knows why. But aren't we glad it did?


As for reasons within the story, I just had an epiphany: I was thinking that the Gargoyles protected the castle for purely selfish reasons, because it was their home; but now I realize that's only a partial reason: they protect the castle, and only the castle, because it's where all their friends/acquaintances live.

Gargoyles usually have a pact with humans. The humans protect them during the day, and the gargoyles protect them at night. That's why they usually coexist. Usually...


However, the situation in Manhattan was different: the Gargoyles may live in the clock tower, but nobody else does. It may be their home, but the Manhattan is where all their friends live. Hence, they protect it.

However, while this may be the way Goliath saw it, it doesn’t seem to be the rest of the way Gargoyle culture as a whole saw it. The London Gargoyles protected out of selfishness, and from Reawakening, one can assume Hudson did too. So, in the end, I guess the protecting thing is something akin to the reason why guys stare at women’s breasts: we do it, yet we don’t know why.

Different clans have different protectorates. For example, Wyvern gargoyles protect Manhattan; London gargoyles only protected their shop until Griff returned from the dead (so to speak) and began protecting the community again; Guatemalan gargoyles protect the rain forest; Ishimuran gargoyles protect, well, Ishimura... etc., etc. They all protect, just in different ways. It depends on their history, relations with humans, upbringing... Well, you get the idea.

I don't think gargoyles are selfish protectors. They protect their own, yes, but they also protect those around them, or everything around them. Why do they protect? Eh, we are what we are. ;)

NOW have I answered your question? :P

[Dakkoth]

Why do gargoyles protect? I think the creators of the show borrowed the concept from history.

Gargoyles were created and mounted to castles and other buildings primarily to trick anyone considering raiding the structure into thinking that the occupants had demons protecting the building. This usually worked if the stucture was being attacked by idiots or morons, or the fanatically superstitious religious type people.

Marvel comics use the same concept in an 80's storyline when the boundary between Earth and Limbo fell. I don't remember then entire story, but I remember an animated gargoyle in New York (or the Limbo-ized version of it) explaining this concept to a hero then helping the hero out.

[ClockStomper]

This usually worked if the stucture was being attacked by idiots or morons, or the fanatically superstitious religious type people.


That'd cover everybody on the planet during the Dark Ages, so it was a sound tactic.