Am I the only person who....

[The Game]

Am I the only person who hates having Superman and Batman together? In the animated series specifically, it just bugs me that Superman and Batman are supposed to exist in the same universe. I really think both superheroes are great in their own right, but they really take away from each other, especially Supes takes away from Batman.

I mean, what makes Batman so cool in my veiw (I know others have said this before me, I don't take credit for saying this) is that he's the only superhero with no super-powers. He's just a highly trained, highly intelligent guy with a vendetta against evil-doers who has picked the Bat as his disguise because it strikes fear in his enemy. But when you think about it, having Superman just down the road makes Batman seem really weak.

I don't to start another Superman/Batman argument, but does anyone see what I'm saying?

In "World's Finest" when Joker says he having trouble killing Supes because of Batman, Lex Luthor makes some kind of a statement like "if you can't manage some freak in tights, this deal is over". From Lex's point of veiw, isn't he right? I mean, after dealing with someone like Superman countering your evil efforts, don't you think Batman seems prettly lame... I mean, he's just a guy.

Basically I'm curious if this bothers anyone else. Any diehard Bat fans who hate the idea of Supes making Batman look bad...?

[Calhoun07]

if you analyzed it, wouldn't Superman make virtually every DC hero look bad?

[BWDK]

I agree, Batman and Superman are awesome if seperated, but suck when they're together, however it works a bit in JL.

[Maxie Zeus]

I think they worked terrifically well together in "World's Finest." Mainly because they really didn't like each other very much.

[FLIPMODE]

Hey, dont worry, Im not following you, but your post was interesting. :)

I definitly see what your saying, but besides the superfriends cartoon, Everyone has been playing Batman's role the correct way. From the Comics to the animated Series.

I see the whole thing just the opposite. I Love the Fact the BOTH exist in the same Universe and pretty close to each other. It just makes Batman that more stronger, and much more of a threat. About half of his succes is based on the fact that almost everyone under-estimates him. Sure Lex Talks smack, But, soon afterwards The Bat is up in his house smacking Mercy around like a ragdoll. If Batman were a perminent in Metropilis, Luthor would be under the jail.

Also, Superman is everyones obvious Super Hero. He get's in front of the cameras, and explains how he just saved the day. Even in Gotham, Batman can't do that. Even if there were no Superman, some other high Profile hero would still overshadow Batman to the Common folk, because that's the way Bruce want's it. He likes to be a myth. A legend. And all that underground hype really kicks in when out of no where a giant Batman, pounces on an unsuspecting criminal, who was instead expecting Superman.

Also with Supes Being So Public, and outright, he basically sets rules that ALL superheroes should follow. Allmost like a guide line. Now criminals know exactly what heroes limitations should be. With batman, they hardly see him, they dont really know for sure who's side he's on, He's never made a public statement, so for all they know, he goes by his own rules. Superman does not kill, the average person is not Sure Batman wont. It's all about fear.
And as for Supes, he could never handle Gotham. Batman's Tactics work. Supes would be less effective there. Supes is great for Natural Disasters, and anything that is an obvious threat, but he's not an investigator or detective. I see it Like, If Superman is stopping a Asteroid from crashing on earth...In the same crime, Batman would be Infiltrating the criminals behind the plan to make an asteroid crash on earth. They both equal each other out.

So no it does'nt really bother me. At times, certain things annoy me, but then I know that Superman fan's have to be validated as well, or else the whole episode would look down on Supes as an idiot.

But come on, did'nt you find it Funny in "Worlds Finest" when Supes flew with Batman in one arm, and Lois in the Other, and when he landed Batman *Smacks* Supes hand off of him. LOL. I thought that was a riot. You'll only get that type of material in "Worlds Finest".

[Calico]

Originally posted by thegame8866

In "World's Finest" when Joker says he having trouble killing Supes because of Batman, Lex Luthor makes some kind of a statement like "if you can't manage some freak in tights, this deal is over". From Lex's point of veiw, isn't he right? I mean, after dealing with someone like Superman countering your evil efforts, don't you think Batman seems prettly lame... I mean, he's just a guy.

Basically I'm curious if this bothers anyone else. Any diehard Bat fans who hate the idea of Supes making Batman look bad...?


I believe Lex's quote was along the lines:

"...if you can't handle a mere mortal in a halloween costume..."

To which the Joker aptly replied:

"There's nothing mere about that mortal."

I think this sums it up nicely. Even the Joker has to admit there's something about Batman that elevates him above the average human, super powers or not. Actually when they're together it's Batman that makes Supes look bad. How many times has he saved him now (including Terry in BB)?

[Barb Gordon]

I think it obviously just depends on how you view it. You can see it as Supes making Bats look bad. Or you can think that they compliment each other. I would enjoy Batman on his own as the only hero, it makes Gotham itself that much more dark. it's this city with loads of bad criminals and one mysterious hero. With Supes in the same world, Gotham loses some of its power, because it's not the only city with a criminals and a hero. Then again, Flipmode stated it perfectly well, but that post is too long to sum up in any short form,lol. But I agree with it completely. Batman get's to stay the way he's meant to be, dark and mysterious with Superman being in the public's eye so often.

Barb^-^

[Arachkid]

I've always thought that showing the World's Finest together from time to time helps highlight how Superman and Batman are essentially the opposite sides of the same coin. (You know, the whole yin/yang, light/dark, idealist/cynical type of thing.)

Since they take such different approaches toward fighting crime, I don't think it really makes one look worse than the other; I think it emphasizes how they are both working toward the same goal in spite of their opposing methods.

Except on Superfriends. They both looked like morons there. ;)

[Clayface]

I've never really been a big fan of Superman, or super-powered heros in general. So, I don't really care for Superman and Batman together in the same universe. I've always liked to think of Batman's world as completely seperate from teh rest of the DC universe. But, that's not the case of course, and I accept an occasional crossover - anything that makes Batman look better and Supes look like a fool (no wonder I love Miller's Dark Knight Returns so much! ;) ).

[MattL.]

Uhm, yeah. Whatever dude.

Personally I think the fact that Miller can't wrap his brain around Superman is just proof of what a hack he really is.

Also, I think its a really lame cop out to always make Batman look superior to Superman in some fashion.

There is no good reason why *both* characters cannot shine.

I find it a little pathetic that people who are exclusive Batman fans or writers who are exclusive Batman fans always feel the need to take pot shots at Superman in order to elevate and feel good about their boy.

Superman fans or fans who are writers have always shown respect towards Batman.

I really hope a writer comes along and does something as signifigant as DKR and paints Batman as a total wuss. Not because I want it to happen but because I think it needs to happen because the Batman fandom is in obvious need of humility.

[Clayface]

Miller wrote Superman fine - just because its not your take on Superman doesn't mean its poor writing. Miller wrote the Superman that some Batman fans see him as. Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean you have put down his writing.

It's not a cop out to write Batman superior to Superman if that's how you see him.

Superman can shine - in his own books. But when he's in the Batman books, I like him looking the chump that he is. ;)

Writers take pot shots at Supes because he's easy to take pot shots at. Batman is a character with more depth and is much more interesting, IMO.

Batman fandom is in need of humility? Maybe you just need to stop taking your superhero comic so seriously. ;)

[MattL.]

"looking the chump that he is"

I rest my case on the Batfans in need of humilty issue.

Why does the fact that you like Batman mean that "Superman sucks" is some indisputable fact of life?

[Clayface]

Originally posted by MattL.
"looking the chump that he is"

I rest my case on the Batfans in need of humilty issue.

Why does the fact that you like Batman mean that "Superman sucks" is some indisputable fact of life?

And I rest my case that maybe you take your comics too seriously. ;)

Never did I say that because I like Batman, Superman sucks. My liking Batman has nothing to do with disliking Superman. I dislike Superman, because I dislike the character - his personality, his powers, his setting, his supporting cast, etc.

[MattL.]

Point.

I would ask you why you dislike Superman so much but I won't. It'll only result in alot flaming and crap.

No offense, but I'd rather not listen to yet another "Darkness and grim is cooler. He's more relatable" (Yeah cause we can relate to being a billionare and having access to impossible technology. Hell, I keep my crime computer right next to the microwave.)

I've heard em all before.

Seems most peoples reasons for disliking Superman just end up being boiled down to them being offended on some level by his moral fiber and nobility. Which I find to be kinda pathetic and more than a little disturbing and sad.

God forbid a hero be heroic and his colors shine brightly lest the trenchcoat and stubble crowd find it offensive. :rolleyes:

Thats not directed at you Clayface, but just more at the overall anti-Superman sentiment I've seen when I personally have encountered it.

The way I see it, both of them are the first and best superheroes of all time and they're great together and one doesn't need to be made to look like a dink in order to make the other look cool. They're both cool and they've both been cool for over 60 years and counting.

[Clayface]

I do like Batman because he is more "relatable". You see, Batman/Bruce is an everyday man (ok, an exceptionally wealthy and fit everyday man, but a man nonetheless). Anyone can be Batman. Anyone could have their loved ones taken away from them in a senseless act of violence. Anyone could dedicate themselves to fighting crime. Anyone could fight that crime using thier own mind and non-super-powered body. Anyone could spend their time and energy training their body and mind to fight crime. Though not very likely to happen, anyone could, theoretically, become Batman.

But theoretically no one can be Superman. No one here could be born on an alien planet. No one here could be sent to Earth on a rocket. No one here could gain superpowers from the sun. I can't do any of those things - no one can. Thus, Superman isn't nearly as relatable to me.

Everything Bruce has done in his life is something that, theoretically, could happen to any one of us and be obtained by any one of us. But Superman's superpowers, by nature, make him less attainable and, thus, less relatable.

[Arachkid]

How about Steel then? :D

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Arachkid
How about Steel then? :D

Eh, never really appealed to me. Don't know why, but he just didn't. But I'd have to say that I can tolerate him more than Supes.

[Nass]

Good lord! Whats with everyone totally HATING Superman lately? Its not Superman being a SUPERMAN that makes him great, its his wanting to do good, his background and past, etc. Just because you see Superman around Batman doesn't affect Batman's past....his parents still died and he's avenging it. JL hasn't changed Batman's bad arse attitude, he's not even part of the team. He can save Gotham, but if he see's he can help to save the whole world it makes him a panzy to do so? I love Batman, probably more than Superman, but come on, Superman has some great situations and challenges. Its not like his past is totally sparkly either, his freak'in homeworld blew up and he lost all his family. He can feel just as lonely as Bruce.

[Nass]

And you can compare to Clark's personality, which is a popular idea on "Smallville" but most likey you superman haters don't like that either.

[MattL.]

I dont understand it either Nass.

I guess its just hip and kewl to diss Superman because he's not all anti-hero. :rolleyes:

[Arachkid]

Like I said earlier, I like both of them. They were the two heroic icons I looked up to most growing up, and both have some great points and some weak points. When you put them together, you usually get to see both sides at work, which I think is cool. The comics where Superman ventured into Gotham during 'No Man's Land' were a great example of that dynamic at work.

Everyone has their own preferences, though, so this will always be one of those "Tastes great! Less filling!" type of arguments, and somebody's always bound to take it all too seriously :rolleyes:

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Nass
Good lord! Whats with everyone totally HATING Superman lately?



It's not just lately - I've always hated Superman! ;)




Its not Superman being a SUPERMAN that makes him great, its his wanting to do good, his background and past, etc.



True, its not Superman being a SUPERMAN that makes him great, but it is Superman being a SUPERMAN that makes him unappealing to me. Its the superpowers that really turns me off to the character.



Just because you see Superman around Batman doesn't affect Batman's past....his parents still died and he's avenging it.



Correct. And I never said it did. I like Batman because he doesn't have superpowers. And I like a comic universe where the heros don't have superpowers. And that's how I like to view Batman's universe - human heros, human villians. Bringing Supes into that universe just ruins the atmosphere for me. You look at Batman and his allies - they're human. You look at Batman's greatest, most interesting villians - they're human. Maybe altered humans - altered by chemicals, or technology, or whatever, but they're humans. Batman's universe is not our own, but its dang close, and theoretically possible. When you start throwing in aliens and superpowers, it really puts a bigger gap between our world and the one pictured in the Batman comics. And that, for me, makes it less relatable.

If you like Supes and Batman together - great, good for you. But don't freak out that there are others that don't like them together. It's all personal preference.

[FLIPMODE]

Um the Bat's not an Anti-Hero.

I'll be the Mediator. Im smack in the Middle of this. I actually do like them Both, but I do buy way more Bat books than Supes.

But for the most part, Supe lovers rag on the Bat, cuz he's "Just Human". And Personally that argument is so dumb. Then Because of this, not Only Supe Lovers do this, but most ANY Superhero lover, like Spiderman, Thor, X-men, and Cap' America, they all disrespect the Bat in that way.

Now In retaliation to the most obvious Human issue that Bruce faces, Bat fans defend him. I mean if theres any Non-powered Superhero out there who can beat anyone it would be Batman. So it all equals itself out.

Personally I think some Fans have taken on the attitude of BATMAN himself. You see, when Bat fans look down on Supes from time to time, They're basically just copying the character. Bruce (AROUND SUPER PEOPLE) is a Jerk! He's high and Mighty, he's cocky, he act's like he's running things, and you probably can't tell him what to do. Now in result personally, I dont look down on Supes, BUT I must admit,(this is to you Supes first then Bat second fans), can't you see the fun in a guy who has no powers pulling his weight around a room full of Heavy hitters? it's just more interesting that way. And you all have to admit, it could be NO other way. It fits his character. Batman KNOWS he's the weakest person in the room, if he's not constantly alert, straight to the point, mean, and paranoid, he'd be the weakest link.

I dont put Supes down, just look at at the wonderful things he can do.

In reality, everyone should realize that they are Basically the same character, just flipped around. Both Stand for same thing. If you have'nt noticed, the main charcterization for Bruce Wayne, is the same as Superman, both in front of the Camera, Both outspoken, forthright. Batman, is Superman stripped of his powers, More motivation, and more challenges. To some that is more intersting to others, they'd rather read a book where they can see something the reader CANT do themselves. To some that's the whole purpose of comic books. I can understand that.
But I lean more towards the difficult life of the Bat.

[FLIPMODE]

Arachkid, good point.

There is a No Mans Land book, Where Supes Comes to Gotham to help, Because he feel's there is NO way Batman, can helpl things. The Bat Let's Supes stay for a while, Supes helps out, but after doing good work, the people have altered it into a power struggle, and all Supes efforts were pretty much useless.

That was a goos book, because it shows that Gotham and Metropolis can exist in the same universe, and not everything can be fix with Superman's Powers. And that there is an importance of Batman in gotham even with Supes around, for anyone who may have had doubts.

[Maxie Zeus]

We've already closed one "Superman" thread on the JL board because the pro- and anti-Superman forces got out of control.

Don't make us do the same thing over here.

[Kal-el]

Can't we Bats and Supes fans just get along?

[MattL.]

As long as Batfans insist on insulting Superman fans and Bat writers insist on *always* making Superman the dink in any story they use him in then I guess not.

You know, our favorite boy in the cowl and cape wouldn't be here if the Last Son of Krypton hadn't been such a success and an editor said to Bob Kane "give us something like this, but different".

For all the vaunted "realism" of Batman he's still a *superhero*. By the logic of many Batfans then Clayface shouldn't exist and Batman shouldn't have any fantastic gadgets or even a costume. If it was truly this thing of "realism" then we'd have a guy in a ski mask beating up thugs. Sounds pretty boring to me.

Having that *superhero* elements makes alot of difference, and there would be no *super*heroes if not for the grandfather of them all, Superman.

Together (let me emphasize together) they started it at all. You're certainally entitled to prefer one over the other, but to disrespect one you might as well be disrespecting the other.

You dont like Superman. Fine. But to insult Superman is to insult Batman as well. Wether you're Frank Miller or just a guy on a message board.

[MattL.]

Let me also say that I apologize if I have flamed.

I love both characters equally, which only makes it even more infurating when one is disrespected in favor of the other as if ones intrinically lame and the other intrisically cool and its a fact of life.

Again, I apologize.

[X-human]

Originally posted by MattL.
You know, our favorite boy in the cowl and cape wouldn't be here if the Last Son of Krypton hadn't been such a success and an editor said to Bob Kane "give us something like this, but different".

Seems to me then that Superman was like dipping your toe into the water, and Batman was when you take the plunge into the deep depths.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by MattL.
As long as Batfans insist on insulting Superman fans and Bat writers insist on *always* making Superman the dink in any story they use him in then I guess not.


Well, now you're just making rather silly broad generalizations. Batman fans don't "insist" on insulting Superman fans. Nor do Batman writers "insist" on making Superman a dink in any story. There are many more stories of Batman and Superman on equal ground in the comics than there are Frank Miller-like takes on the character. Seems like you're just looking to stereotype here.




You know, our favorite boy in the cowl and cape wouldn't be here if the Last Son of Krypton hadn't been such a success and an editor said to Bob Kane "give us something like this, but different".



Yep, and IMO the spawn outshines the original.




For all the vaunted "realism" of Batman he's still a *superhero*. By the logic of many Batfans then Clayface shouldn't exist and Batman shouldn't have any fantastic gadgets or even a costume.



Once again, you miss the points I made. The Batman universe has a slight futuristic/sci-fi twist on our reality, but its very close to "real". All of the gadgets Batman use are theoretically possible. The origin of Clayface is slightly fantastic, but still not a very far stretch of the imagination. But when you introduce aliens, superbeings, and superpowers, you're taking a further step away from the "real". This is one step too far for myself and many other fans. If you can't see the grey, and look at it all in black and white, than you're missing a lot.




If it was truly this thing of "realism" then we'd have a guy in a ski mask beating up thugs. Sounds pretty boring to me.



Not at all. There's a "logical" reason to Batman's costume (at least, its logical to Bruce) - to scare - to put fear into the criminal - and to create a mystical image in the minds of the "superstitious, cowardly lot". And, it makes sense for the average person, because, frankly, Bruce is a bit insane. But when you look at Superman, there's really no reason, that I know of, that justifies his costume. Why does he like wearing bright spandex? Comes across as silly to me - again, that takes him a step away from "reality" and relatability for me.




Together (let me emphasize together) they started it at all. You're certainally entitled to prefer one over the other, but to disrespect one you might as well be disrespecting the other.



Again, not at all. I like the Packers. Friends of mine like the Bears. They're all from the same stock, but we still talk trash about each other's team. It's the same with Batman and Superman - we each have our favorite Superhero, and we each talk trash about the opposing "team". Kick back, relax, and have fun - don't go getting your panties in a bunch about it all! ;)

[Naraht]

I don't like Superman, and I've made no attempts to conceal this...mainly due to his near-omnipotence. I know ppl like him. I like ppl who like him. My main beef is that it's so hard to take him down...so it comes across as silly. Just look at the threads related to smallville...Kryptonite villians every week. Batman to me is better, cause he has flaws, problems and there's the possibility of him losing.

Personally, I like Spiderman better than both of em. He has Superpowers, but not overwhealming superpowers. Plus he has problems in his real life! He has to hide his superpowers (something Superman has to do...) and he can be beaten, but he uses his head as often as his powers!

>=p

=]

[Clayface]

Originally posted by naraht

Personally, I like Spiderman better than both of em.

While I don't like Spiderman more than Batman, I am actually starting to get into the character. I've realy enjoyed JMS's take on him, and he's been slowly drawing me into the Spidey world.

[Naraht]

Originally posted by Clayface


While I don't like Spiderman more than Batman, I am actually starting to get into the character. I've realy enjoyed JMS's take on him, and he's been slowly drawing me into the Spidey world.

JMS is god....well....almost =]

[Clayface]

Originally posted by naraht

JMS is god....well....almost =]

Hehe. Yeah, I'm a huge B5 fan, and have been following him around in the comic world - picking up his various comic series. I never really cared for Spidey - I collected Spidey comics when I was younger for a very short time, but lost interest quick. But when JMS started in on Spidey, and everyone on the board was singing the praises of the comic, I decided to go pick it up. It drew me in quick. I just hope he stays on the title for good amount of time.

[Nightwing]

I'm glad we're keeping things cool here, so I'll go ahead and add my 2 pennies.

I really don't like to pick a favorite over my two absolute favorite heroes of all time, Spiderman and Batman, but I'll just separate them like this instead: If I mirrored my life to theirs, you'd see how many similarities Peter and I have. That's what drew me into the character. Bruce can't relate to my life, obviously, but he's still the most incredible fictional character ever! :)


Originally posted by Clayface
Miller wrote the Superman that some Batman fans see him as.

I think in there is where our inconsistency lies. Superman shouldn't be viewed exclusively as how those hardcore Bruce-only Bat fans see him. That's like asking a person who hates the Simpsons to join the writing team for the show. So even though I enjoy the Batman from the animated series above all -keeping the deep, dark, moody, and of course, indepth persona for him- I would also rather not just use Superman as a tool to make Batman look better in the sense of Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. Why?

Bruce doesn't need extra help in looking better than Superman! I love Superman, unlike most I'm sure, but I do think Batman's a better character. I still love them both though, of course, that's the thing. Superman, while awesome, was still jolted a tiny bit when Bruce came to visit his town (World's Finest). And I think ALL aspects of that played off each other beautifully. Bruce, being the hard head that he is was intimidated and had to show boat everything he is and has so they don't think he's weak just for not being in his own city or atmosphere. And Superman, the strongest man in the world, was a little jolted by that. :)

So in cases like with Miller's book, I agree with MattL., but in the case of The Superman episode World's Finest, I think both characters were complimented (even though solo stories are always best of course).

[MattL.]

"Seems to me then that Superman was like dipping your toe into the water, and Batman was when you take the plunge into the deep depths."

Yeah gee a superhero with incredible power and conscience trying to do what is right, nothing "deep" there. :mad:

[FLIPMODE]

And let me just defend Miller's Books a bit.

Im sure it's not just a Superman Hatefest. Infact if you read Part one, they worked together, to make it looked like Batman was dead. the tension you can tell was NOT faked by them, because when it comes down to it, they Dissagree on as much as they agree on things. So it was'nt hard for them to go at each other. But at the End Supes was happy, knowing that he did his part.

Also ok some may take this futere setteing to literally, but it's just a possible future. And it's been around so long, people have accepted it too much. But when it comes down to to it, going to back to 1986, you got to admit: the idea of the DCU future, where Bruces biggest threat is Superman,..Is a GREAT idea.

Supes could have a similar book done, but the other way around, is slightly less interesting. Plainly because Supes has very few obvious threats. Infact Supes has the hardest job as a Character, just surviving this long, and having hardly any weakness is tuff. So I respect the teams behind his books.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Nightwing

I think in there is where our inconsistency lies. Superman shouldn't be viewed exclusively as how those hardcore Bruce-only Bat fans see him.



And who says that he's viewed exclusively this way? In some crossovers in the comics, they get along. In others, they don't. Miller's work was only one take of many on the two interacting. And I don't think that its just hard-core fans that view Supes this way. I know many, many people that are only casual comic fans and casual Batman fans that hate Superman much more than I ever do. I've seen the Batman character resonate with a lot of people - people that aren't "die-hard" fans - and these same people dislike Supes. To label this as a phenomenon of only "die-hard" fans, I think, is a big mistake.

[MattL.]

Yes, Superman wears colors, is noble and a symbol of hope and has powers so he sucks and he deserves to die at the hands of Batman.

There. You people happy now?

God forbid a hero not be dark or everyman.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by MattL.
Yes, Superman wears colors, is noble and a symbol of hope and has powers so he sucks and he deserves to die at the hands of Batman.

There. You people happy now?

God forbid a hero not be dark or everyman.

:eek:

Relax, my man. It's all good.

No one is putting you down for liking Superman, so there's no reason to get so upset and take it so personally. You see Superman one way, others see him differently. No reason to get bent out of shape over that.

[Maxie Zeus]

This is not going anyplace constructive. I have put up warnings in this thread. I have sent out PMs to participants. It still keeps coming.

The thread is now locked, and Maxie is pissed.