"Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Mike Spartz]

The second war begins....

http://www.hogwarts-gallery.org/hogwartsgallery/galleries/Books/hbp_adultbloomsbury.jpg



Release Date: July 16th, 2005
Publisher: Raincoast Books (http://thefullm.com/?go=books&url1=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.toonzone.net%2Fnewthread.php), Bloomsbury Books (http://postfiking.com/?go=books&url1=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.toonzone.net%2Fnewthread.php)
Length:
Trade version (US): 672 pages
Trade version (UK): 608 pages
Deluxe edition (US): 704 pages

Summary (UK): It is the middle of the summer, but there is an unseasonal mist pressing against the windowpanes. Harry Potter is waiting nervously in his bedroom at the Dursleys' house in Privet Drive for a visit from Professor Dumbledore himself. One of the last times he saw the Headmaster was in a fierce one-on-one duel with Lord Voldemort, and Harry can't believe that Professor Dumbledore will actually appear at the Dursleys' of all places. Why is the Professor coming to visit him now? What is it that cannot wait until Harry returns to Hogwarts in a few weeks' time? Harry's sixth year at Hogwarts has already got off to an unusual start, as the worlds of Muggle and magic start to intertwine...

Comments?

Will Ron and Hermione finally get together? Will Harry take NEWT level potions? Discuss the new book here!

[BeastBoyWonder]

I know this is sort of off-topic, but I cannot wait to get my hands on this! Since my sis back home is getting a copy, I'm too cheap to buy one on my own... but my best friend is going to loan me his copy as soon as he's done with it. Hopefully it'll exceed all of our expectations!

[Azrael24]

i dont have any money but hopefully my parents will be nice enough to lend me some money:shrug:. i cant wait to read it!! i agree with steel that i hope it exceed our expectations, and by a long shot!!

[Steve Jester]

Little under 3 hours for east coast. But I still have to wait untill UPS send my book in the morning. I'll probably still be awake ;)

[atf487]

i cannot wait to get this either, but stupidly, i never even thought to pre order it or anything.

i'm gonna have a go at getting it on sunday...maybe :sad:

[Steve Jester]

under an hour on the east coast!!!!!!!!!! :eek::evil: (I missed useing the evil smiley!)

[Azrael24]

hour and a half!!

or at least over here. i should have preordered too, im not getting it at midnight, i'll just wait till tomorrow.

[silverwings]

It's coming between 9am and 7pm tomorrow. It's going to be a painful day.. :crying:

[Steve Jester]

little over 5 mins. on east coast! !!!!!!!:evil:

[purplehairedwonder]

Gah, I don't want to wait until Sunday! But I won't be back in town to get it. And I still need to finish OotP again (about 300 pages to go :sweat: )

[and2]

Im gonna buy it the moment i leave the dentist tomorrow, i hope sams isnt that full

[Phantasm]

Just came back from the midnight party at Barnes and Nobles!!!!!

I have HP and the HBP!!!!!:D
yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only question is, how will I sleep tonight?!:p

[TnAdct1]

Got back from a Borders Harry Potter party a about 40 minutes ago. Will start reading it as soon as I finish my business here.

BTW, while at the party, a couple of people thought that I was the splitting image of the guy from the Numa Numa video (well, I did get a haircut on Thursday).

[Yash]

I've read the first seven chapters (through *ahem* methods I can't discuss), it's pretty good so far. Who wants spoilers?

The narrative notes of Dumbledore's ring... Draco's a Death Eater... where I'm at it hasn't got this far, but I've read descriptions on Wikipedia's page for HBP, and it says that Snape is the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher... a man named Horace Slughorn (basically he's a friend of Dumbledore's who is pretty knowledgable on how to pick out people who'll succeed and has made his way through the wizarding world by getting close to famous people) is initially hired for the Dark Arts job, but Dumbledore puts Snape in charge I guess... and Slughorn is the new Potions teacher, which enables Harry to get into N.E.W.T. level Potions after all (he only got an E).

And guess what? Felix Felicis? A potion of all things.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Well, i'm through chapter ten (took me a while because I got the book late), but so far it is excellent. Its a much different tone than the last couple books, but that was to be expected.

[Mike Spartz]

I just got back from midnight madness!!! I have my book and I'm sooooooo happpyyyy!!!!!!!!:anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime:

READING NOW!!!!!

See you later!!!

[BeastBoyWonder]

Finished it a couple hours ago. Very interesting book, but I don't want to spoil it so I'll hold off on the commentary.

[RayChuang]

...I find this book to be far more readable than Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. In many ways, it's probably Rowling's best HP novel since Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.

By the way--

--don't you just love that opening chapter with the meeting between the Muggle Prime Minister and Cornelius Fudge? I can just imagine how one Tony Blair would look in that role.... :sweat:

As for Draco Malfoy being a Death Eater--I think he didn't become a Death Eater I would be EXTREMELY surprised.

I am pleasantly surprised that Clarissa Malfoy--Lucius' wife--has a prominent role in this novel. She was just mentioned in passing in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

Will discuss more when I get through more of the novel. :)

[Phantasm]

OH MY GOD!!!!!
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
I hate Snape SO much!!!!!
How can he...?But real interesting to see he has a soft spot for Ms. Malfoy...

How do you put spoiler tags by the way?I'll need to know that for this thread.

[Lord Dalek]

I'll be picking up mine in an hour and 20 minutes.

[atf487]

i just picked mine up, and i felt like such a loser. the woman there gave me a strange look...

but i was on another forum, and uhh...i thought this was funny:

"Errr 'Arry , you happear to 'ave made a sloight problam wiv your latest spull" grumbled Trimbledee dejectedly.
"Oh, Trimbledee, *snort snort* what do you know about it you rotter! MWHA guffaw!" replied Harry, grabbing a line of coke.
"Lookee here young master, thats no way to be go talkin' to one of yer elders" retorted Trimbledee with a slight tinge of anger.
"Oh I suppose you're right," replied Harry politely, "Mammy always said I could be rude. Now, help me with this spell to get Hermione's training bra off"

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Well, it took me about 6 hours to read(started at 1 AM, finished just before 7), and it was well worth it. Really enjoyable book. I didn't like most of the other DA characters being ignored in this book, and Neville having such a small role after everything that happened in Order of the Phoenix, but aside from those complaints I thought it was wonderful.

[Drachentöter]

I'm trying to take my time reading this one as I don't have the free time I did with Order of the Phoenix and don't want any interruptions during key moments of the book. So far I just finished chapter nine for today.

Some non spoiler notes: I'm starting to wish it were as long and drawn out as the last two books since I'm creeping up on being almost halfway done and sixth year has only just started which means stuff at the end will be even more rushed than usual. Also, I can guess where Rowling had to cut content to make Half Blood Prince less lengthy. There are some prime spots for setting development and characterization that were glossed over in narration.

I don't like the American cover so much. Pretty dull as I think we've read a scene with Dumbledore and Harry looking into a Pensive (or Pensive-like substance) at least twice before. And they used heavy shades of green for the Goblet of Fire cover already plus the back cover is just the three kids looking up at a Dark Mark, though I'm glad to see they're making Ron less ugly. At any rate, the cover on the topic post looks a lot more intriguing.

My initial thoughts on the plot:

-The scene with the Prime Minister surprised me. Rowling could not have been aware of the London attacks at the time of writing the first chapter, but it certainly must be eerily relevant now. I hope critics don't label her as insensitive because of it.

-Obviously, the big "initial shock" for book six is Snape. Personally, I doubt he's been playing for the other team all this time. I'm a little disappointed that Rowling keeps going back to the "is Snape a traitor or not?" game when it's been revisited time and time again, but I guess it's an extremely central theme to the plot. Or she's running out of red herrings to throw at the readers.

At any rate, that Unbreakable Vow is going to be a very sticky situation, I can tell.

-I refused to go beyond chapter nine, so I'm not sure who Harry thinks the "Half Blood Prince" is, but of course any sane person's initial assumption is Voldemort. They even made the Riddle Diary connection, but that makes me somewhat suspicious to jump to the most obvious conclusion. At first I was thinking maybe Lily when Slughorn said she was a good Potions student, but then the "Prince" thing wouldn't make much sense. I haven't been keeping up with the book rumors, so I have no idea if people thought the title referred to Voldemort or not but it would seem a little too....general for the penultimate book if that were the case.

All in all, it's a really satisfying read and it's tempting to go beyond my limit, but I really want to savor this one. I plan to check back on the thread only when I've read ahead, so no fear of any huge spoilers as long as they don't give away the entire ending.

[Lord Dalek]

Pull's out book *SNIFF* Smells like Rowling!

[IanC]

7 hours to finsh reading this book.

What an ending.
Good bye Dumbledore.

Snape's is a bastard basically, i cant believe he killed him. (tho i never really trusted him)

Plus they are acting a bit like teenagers, loved how Rowling described some of the kissing bits.

I dont think book 7 will be set in Hogwarts, going by what Harry says.

[Yash]

Characters calling each other sluts, swearing, and flipping the bird = instant win.

Did your characters finally grow up, Rowling? :sweat:

[Lord Dalek]

Did your characters finally grow up, Rowling? :sweat:Well after the angst fest that was Order of the Pheonix, nothing's sacred in the Potter-verse.

[BeastBoyWonder]

7 hours to finsh reading this book.

What an ending.
Good bye Dumbledore.

Snape's is a bastard basically, i cant believe he killed him. (tho i never really trusted him)

Plus they are acting a bit like teenagers, loved how Rowling described some of the kissing bits.

I dont think book 7 will be set in Hogwarts, going by what Harry says.

My feeling is that I wouldn't go as far as to blatantly call Snape evil yet. There are quite a few things that still don't make sense about it.

[Phantasm]

I'm half way through chapter nine at this point and couldn't help but notice, isn't this book very fast paced? Until now there hasn't been a 'breather' moment and it seems as if important event after important event is thrown hastily in a sequential order, with no apparent down time ,perhaps in fear of lengthening the book?

[mookie75]

How do you put spoiler tags by the way?I'll need to know that for this thread.
I've wondered that for awhile too. It looks like it's just like most other things. use "spoiler" and "/spoiler" in the usual brackets. ---> [ ]

*test spoiler*

[Fone Bone]

My feeling is that I wouldn't go as far as to blatantly call Snape evil yet. There are quite a few things that still don't make sense about it. In what way? I am insanely curious about this as it seemed fairly straightforward to me. I should have known something was up when Rowling made him the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. It's tricky because the story was written in a such a way that you SHOULD have been shocked at Snape's betrayel. (I know I was). I know Rowling is the master of red herrings but the idea of setting Snape up as a bad guy in the second chapter seemed to be one. But it wasn't. But it was. Does that sound right? The story was written in such a way that you were SUPPOSED to think Snape was up to no good which "clever" readers like myself would realize was a red herring to Snape's motives, but it wasn't. Rowling DIDN'T throw the twist in so it was as shocking a red herring as anything. I mean Harry had been a complete dunb ass through the first five books so the idea that he was right about Malfoy and Snape (although I'm sure we all suspected he was right about Malfoy) was an even bigger shock than if Rowling hadn't written in chapter two that Snape might be a traitor.

Speaking of shocks Dumbledore's murder was the biggest in the book. I kept thinking "This is wrong, Dumbledore's only pretending to be gone this is all just a plan of his and Snape's" and then we saw his body. Then his portrait was on the wall. Then Fawkes left. Then they had his funeral. He's not coming back and I have to admit I felt his death more than Sirius's as Dumbledore has been in the books since the beginning and we really only knew Sirius for three (two if you factor in we spent most of book three believing him a murderer).

And anyone know exactly what the deluxe edition of the book included? I only heard about it from this thread and I hate to think I missed a hundred pages of the story. This was unlike any other book in the series in it's surprises, muted tones, and revelations. I'm still processing it. It doesn't help that we have awesome Teen Titans and Justice League Unlimited episodes tonight. My poor fanboy head is spinning in three directions at once.

[Zero-V]

DON'T click if you hav'nt read the book, this is for those who did

http://darthpotter.ytmnd.com/ (http://darthpotter.ytmnd.com/)

[bigddan11]

All I can say is wow. I knew Dumbledoere would be prominent in this book, but I didn't realize how prominent until the end. I also was shocked to see how Snape was at the end. I never would have thought that Snape was a half blood, much less a Prince. I can see a bunch of romance has dev eloped now in Harry Potter, but it looks like all the minor characters have been pushed aside now. Book 7 is going to be quiet interesting when it's released, but it's a shame it'll probably be July 2007 that it's released at earliest.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Who are these characters and what have they done with my HP cast. Good grief.


I know some people don't like Hermione, but good lord! she transformed into a fraping jealous stupid nag in this one. Ron's still a jealous prick, but he gets women with that behavior? So that's what I've been doing wrong...

Final chapters spoiler
And anyone who DIDN'T think that Snape was going to be a traitor was fooling themselves. If I hear any more "theories" on how Severus is really a good guy I'm gonna sock somebody.

[Fresh V]

Wow, you are finishing this book on the day it came out?!

[Wounded_Dragon]

Wow, you are finishing this book on the day it came out?!
Err...yes. Spoilers were hard enough to avoid before the book came out. Now they'll be practically impossible. TZ's relatively safe in that regard but most of my HP places aren't.

Plus, I wanted to get the pain out of the way. You ever get that burning pain in your muscles when you're exercising too much but you're trying to push through? That's what it felt like reading this book.

[bigddan11]

What do you mean why are you finishing it in one day. It took me roughly 10 hours to finish my copy, but 8 of those hours were at work, so in reality it probably took me about 6 1/2 to 7 hours as well.

[zmanjz]

EDIT: I'm removing my spoiler tags. If you dont want to read spoilers, then you're in the wrong thread.

...

I'm overwhelmed.



wow, Snape is a bastard. I mean we all knew this, but it was terrible to see. Personally, even if snape is a double or tripple agent, I hate him for killing Dumbledore.

as for other things that happened..... it was all too rushed.

Harry/Ginny. I've been looking forward to this for over a year, and that's all we get. An aknowledgement that they had great times together, but can't be with each other?!?!?

(I went through this crap between the "reluctant hero and his his beloved-redhead who can't be together because loving the hero is too dangerous" at a funeral, at the end of the first spiderman movie. I hated watching it then, and I hated watching it now.)

seriously, the Harry/Ginny relationship was underwritten. I would rather have waited another 6 months or whatever for her to have fleshed it out more.



Now, what about his reaction to Sirius's death. In OOTP, he had nightmares and angst about the death of Cedric Diggory.... a person that he barely knew. But now, Sirius is dead, one of the few last people he could truly rely on and consider a parental figure, and it seems like he expended any feeling he had about it in OOTP.

the harry/ginny thing is killing me. After all that time that Dumbledore talked about how strong love was, what's the first thing Harry does after Dumbledore's dead but he pushed away his loved ones so that they don't get hurt. I hope Ginny Bat Bogey's him into thinking for a change.

most of the story seemed to be focused on how Riddle became voldemort. I'm glad that we now know the keys to his "Immortality" and I hope that and end can be quickly brought to him, but right now, between the Harry/Ginny thing, and Dumbledore's death, Snape's murder, and Dumbledore's lack of any tactical skill whatsoever, I'm a little upset at the book.

I hope that Ginny realises that Harry is a moron, but that he's worth the trouble.


With 6 books so far, 3 with happy endings, and 3 with horrifying endings, I wonder what the 7th book will hold. Will Rowling's legacy be:

A: Life is hard, but the love makes even the most dire challenges worth fighting.
OR
B: Life sucks.... and then you die.


I'm going to need to re-read this a couple of times... andhopefully, I'll feel better about the story later than I do now.

[Hero Supreme]

In what way? I am insanely curious about this as it seemed fairly straightforward to me. I should have known something was up when Rowling made him the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. It's tricky because the story was written in a such a way that you SHOULD have been shocked at Snape's betrayel. (I know I was). I know Rowling is the master of red herrings but the idea of setting Snape up as a bad guy in the second chapter seemed to be one. But it wasn't. But it was. Does that sound right? The story was written in such a way that you were SUPPOSED to think Snape was up to no good which "clever" readers like myself would realize was a red herring to Snape's motives, but it wasn't. Rowling DIDN'T throw the twist in so it was as shocking a red herring as anything. I mean Harry had been a complete dunb ass through the first five books so the idea that he was right about Malfoy and Snape (although I'm sure we all suspected he was right about Malfoy) was an even bigger shock than if Rowling hadn't written in chapter two that Snape might be a traitor.


i was thinking of the princess bride when reading that chapter. *so i could surley not choose the wine in front of me.* as George Bush says, "fool me once shame on... the point is you cant keep fooling me." i was trying to out smart ol Jo but why do i even try. i guess she can keep fooling me.

[Fone Bone]

Still processing...
I have to say I'm a little bit disappointed with Snape's betrayel. Firstly, Dumbledore trusted him so damn much and if J.K. Rowling only used that as an excuse to blindside us I have to grumble that it worked all too well. It also fits in with a disquieting pattern of these books. Despite protestations to the contrary the idea that blood doesn't really matter in making a person a great wizard, it's disquieting that EVERY SINGLE SLYTHERIN CHARACTER IN THE BOOK has turned out to be a bad guy. Snape was INTERESTING in the first five books because despite being a bastard he was working on the side of good after a change of heart. He was the most interesting character in the series because of this contrary nature. I have to say that if Rowling's ultimate moral is that blood doesn't matter she does a disservice to her message by having every single Slytherin character be evil. They are all inter-related and come from the same stock. If there really IS such an anti-prejudice lesson in the books it does a huge disservice to the message by having a group of people segregated and ALL undesirable. It's reverse discrimination by saying that a group of people HAS to be bad just because of what house they belong too.

I also wonder how this will effect the Harry Potter movies. Alan Rickman has always portrayed Snape as kind of an aloof, misunderstood guy. It will certainly be more jarring to see his Snape murder Dumbledore in the sixth movie because while Snape killing him was shocking it was almost understandable with the way he had been behaving in previous books. Despite being "multi-layered":rolleyes: in the first five books it will be most jarring to see Rickman's Snape turn on Dumbledore after giving no real horrible behavior in the movies so far. I really think this turn of events does not bode well for the movie franchise.

On the Harry/Ginny thing although I was originally a Harry/Luna shipper (and I was rewarded with a delightfully ditzy date) I have to say it makes more sense for it to be Ginny. As for Harry telling her at the end that they couldn't be together, I took there to be a silent "yet" at the end of the sentence. Once he vanquishes Voldemort he gave me the impression that was when he'd let himself be happy. I DO have to say that Harry was a total ass in Order of the Pheonix so I was gratified that he was sensible and not too angry in this book. I had been afraid they would extend the hormone plot through this book as well.

As far as the rest of the D.A. not really being invloved with the book I notice that Neville and Luna were both there when it REALLY counted which makes up for their reduced face-time in the book. Indeed if Harry really DOES decide to leave Hogwarts with Ron and Hermione I would like to think Luna, Neville and Ginny would play a role in the book. And I, like Ron was delighted with Luna's Quidditch coverage.

As for the Malfoy having trouble killing Dumbledore, I probably would have thought better of Dumbledore's instincts that Draco should be on the good side if another guy he trusted hadn't just murdered him moments later. As it stands, though I found his crying fits to be surprising I expect horrible things from him in the last book. By the way, his having his head on Pansy Parkinson's lap was just creepy.

I guess in the end year seven at Hogwarts will not actually take place there which was another shock the book offered. I have to say that the book was as good as any book in the series and different enough from the others (the Voldemort flashbacks were fascinating) that I feel jutisfied in giving it ***** despite my disdain for the direction Snape's character has taken.

[Fone Bone]

i was thinking of the princess bride when reading that chapter. *so i could surley not choose the wine in front of me.* as George Bush says, "fool me once shame on... the point is you cant keep fooling me." i was trying to out smart ol Jo but why do i even try. i guess she can keep fooling me.I have YET to succeed in guessing where Rowling's prose is going. It's a good thing but I always feel like an idiot after reading her books.:p

[bigddan11]

You know, last time I saw a lover's group occur like Harry/ Ginny did in this lovely book, it ended with the lady having the last laugh and breaking off a wedding. The film: Spider-Man 2. I see something similiar occurring in Book 7, but I also look at the fact that Ginny and Luna don't know how to apparate, so they can't apparate with the gang like Neville could if he joins up with them.

[the Amanda]

I'm so horribly disappointed. I loved all of the books and Order was my favorite. This book is like a Star Wars prequel -- many favorite characters are there, in name, but they are wooden, hollow shells of themselves.

Dammit, JK, you cannot convey that two people love each other merely by writing "Oh, they had a relationship." Ginny and Harry had maybe one half of a meaningful conversation throughout the whole book. That's inexcusable. Hermione relegated to a bit part is also inexcusable. Pretty much no minor characters (except Ginny) AT ALL hurts me inside. AND I LIKED SNAPE'S CHARACTER DAMN IT, AND NOW HE'S SHALLOW AND BORING. And Dumbledore was a trusting old fool after all... :crying: All the action is relegated to the very end of the book. Malfoy's plot is guessable from the start. It's so bad. It's so very very bad. I'm going to go try to pretend that I didn't read that now.

Oh, and the four flipping horcruxes. Someone's been playing too many video games. Is one of them stashed in an ice world, another in a fire world, another in a jungle, and the fourth in a robot-infested metropolis?

[BeastBoyWonder]

In what way? I am insanely curious about this as it seemed fairly straightforward to me. I should have known something was up when Rowling made him the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. It's tricky because the story was written in a such a way that you SHOULD have been shocked at Snape's betrayel. (I know I was). I know Rowling is the master of red herrings but the idea of setting Snape up as a bad guy in the second chapter seemed to be one. But it wasn't. But it was. Does that sound right? The story was written in such a way that you were SUPPOSED to think Snape was up to no good which "clever" readers like myself would realize was a red herring to Snape's motives, but it wasn't. Rowling DIDN'T throw the twist in so it was as shocking a red herring as anything. I mean Harry had been a complete dunb ass through the first five books so the idea that he was right about Malfoy and Snape (although I'm sure we all suspected he was right about Malfoy) was an even bigger shock than if Rowling hadn't written in chapter two that Snape might be a traitor.

Speaking of shocks Dumbledore's murder was the biggest in the book. I kept thinking "This is wrong, Dumbledore's only pretending to be gone this is all just a plan of his and Snape's" and then we saw his body. Then his portrait was on the wall. Then Fawkes left. Then they had his funeral. He's not coming back and I have to admit I felt his death more than Sirius's as Dumbledore has been in the books since the beginning and we really only knew Sirius for three (two if you factor in we spent most of book three believing him a murderer).

And anyone know exactly what the deluxe edition of the book included? I only heard about it from this thread and I hate to think I missed a hundred pages of the story. This was unlike any other book in the series in it's surprises, muted tones, and revelations. I'm still processing it. It doesn't help that we have awesome Teen Titans and Justice League Unlimited episodes tonight. My poor fanboy head is spinning in three directions at once.

My best friend Mike and I had a lot of fun discussing the book while and after reading it. The Dumbledore/Snape/Harry/Voldemort relationship is a small part of the subject matter that we speculated on and attempted to deduce. 'Course its all speculation (that's where the fun in the HP series lies :-P), and its impossible to tell anything for sure until the seventh book to come out, but there are a few things about the death of Dumbledore by Snape to take into consideration.

Its important to note that Dumbledore seemed to be trying to wrap things up and take care of his affairs, particularly with regards to Harry and Voldemort. Dumbledore undertook a substantial amount of effort to include Harry in on the information and action, and kind of develop his independence. Not only has Dumbledore passed on the content of the prophecy and the circumstances surrounding it, but close to the entirety of his understanding of Voldemort and even allowed Harry in the process of filling in the missing pieces. Unlike my friend Mike, I don't necessarily think that Dumbledore had a "death wish," but that he saw most of his duty fulfilled and saw the circumstances around his death fast approaching. By the end of the book, Dumbledore clearly regarded Harry's well being to be more important than its own, and its entirely possible that Dumbledore valued Harry's independence and Snape's position as a trusted ally of Voldy more important than his own life.

Its also important to realize that the relationship between Harry and Snape is largely based upon prejudice. That's not to say that Snape isn't a real piece of work (because he is), but Harry has often treated Snape with just as prejudiced and unfair of an attitude as Snape has to Harry all the way from the first book. With regards to the recurring themes of prejudice and redemption, these themes that are inherent to the books could very well end up applying to both Malfoy and Snape.

All of that lays the groundwork, but I think it all really boils down to the Unbreakable Vow and scene with Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange near the begginning of the book. Even with Snape's "explanation" of everything to Bella and Cissy (which admittedly, if Snape really were a traitor, is entirely plausible), there are a lot of details and plot points from previous books that still don't jive. For example, near the end of the Order of the Phoenix book there is a scene where Harry is trying to convey to Snape just exactly what the hell is going on. They then rush off to the Department of Mysteries. Because of Snape's initiative and correct interpretation of events, the Order was able to save the kids and keep the prophecy from Voldemort's hands. That's something that Voldemort and the Death Eaters don't know about, and were Snape traitorous scum I can't see him having done that because there'd be no clear incentive for him to do so. Offhand, speaking of prophecies, I liked what the book had to say regarding self-fulfilling prophecies and fate, etc.

Snape making the unbreakable vow to retain his credibility and also protect Malfoy was a calculated risk to retain his credibility and position, and it ended up biting them all in the ass. Snape most likely told Dumbledore of what transpired as soon as it happened (which is part of why Dumbledore was thoroughly unsurprised when Harry told him what he did), and Dumbledore knew then that it could very possibly go down like how it did... it seemed pretty clear that he anticipated something like that, and its probably what Hagrid overheard Dumbledore and Snape arguing about. Snape probably wouldn't want to kill Dumbledore, but Dumbledore likely insited that Snape do what was neccessary when the time came. Keep in mind that he wanted Harry to fetch *Snape* very soon after their Horcrux adventure. The stalling Malfoy was probably because he'd rather have Snape kill him than have Malfoy become a murderer.

In that final scene before Dumbledore's death, there are at least three possibilities of what Dumbledore was trying to convey to Snape: Albus could have really been begging for Snape to spare his life, acting for the benefit of the Death Eaters, or begging for Severus to kill him like what they had agreed on beforehand. While JK certainly fleshed Dumbledore's character out and humanized him quite a bit in this book, I highly doubt that the first possibility is true and that Dumbledore woul grovel for his life like that, especially since to him "to the organized mind, death is but yet the next great adventure." In the same light, its also important to consider that Dumbledore could have easily released Harry from the petrification and had himself saved, but left Harry petrified to watch events unfold.

There is also the final scene to consider. Sure, Snape did say that the Death Eaters should leave Harry for Voldemort to contend with, but there were still a few things funny about that scene aside from Snape "saving" Harry. Given the way that Snape was owning Harry, the Death Eaters could have arguably taken Harry with them back to Voldemort. Also, up until the point that Harry calls Snape a coward, Snape was *still* offering Harry very useful pieces of advice in terms of non-verbal spell use despite the circumstances, which alone clinches the deal in my opinion.

So given the assumption that Snape must kill Dumbledore to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow, and that Dumbledore considers Snape's position as one of Voldemort's essential assistants to be of utmost importance, it all fits together very well: Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow, Dumbledore wraps up everything that he needs to do with Harry and gives him the knowledge that he needs, enforces to Snape that killing him is important (resulting in the argument that Hagrid overheard), Dumbledore getting Harry to fetch Snape as soon as they get back, Dumbledore not letting Harry save him but allowing him to witness the events under the Invisibility Cloak, pleading with Snape to have the courage to kill him, and then what transpires in the final scene.

Its true that Snape loathes Harry with every fiber of his being, but also appreciates the neccessity of his existance. Ironically, Snape could end up being very much like Sirius, where doing what seems like the right thing damns him to percieved guilt by everybody else. I'm almost certain that there's more to a very nuanced character like Snape than meets the eye -- Dumbledore had his reasons for trusting snape, and I'm *very* interested to see how that pans out.

[Wounded_Dragon]

That theory only works if you suppose Snape is a good person. I find it far more likely that he isn't, especially since his school books contain dark magic spells in them, that he wrote in them. Spells that can kill.

There was no proper development of Ginny and Harry/Ginny. Just "I saw her over the summer, I miss her not in my year" and throw in some jealousy.

Hermione whines at Harry for cheating but does it so Ron can play Quidditch? What the heck is going on here?

[BeastBoyWonder]

That theory only works if you suppose Snape is a good person. I find it far more likely that he isn't, especially since his school books contain dark magic spells in them, that he wrote in them. Spells that can kill.

There was no proper development of Ginny and Harry/Ginny. Just "I saw her over the summer, I miss her not in my year" and throw in some jealousy.

Hermione whines at Harry for cheating but does it so Ron can play Quidditch? What the heck is going on here?

If the theory "only works if Snape is a good person," explain how and why Snape kept Voldemort and the Death Eaters from the prophecy in the last book as well as saved the kids, why Dumbledore asked Harry to fetch Snape immediately upon their return, why Dumbledore would be groveling for his life given his attitudes about death, and why Snape was still giving Harry good advice disguised as insults as he always has throughout the series. Also, its entirely possible that people have once practiced the "Dark Arts" and not stay evil or redeem themselves. Having once done Dark Magic isn't enough to conclusively call Snape evil.

[the Amanda]

Having read some interesting theories as to how Snape might still be good, I feel somewhat better about this book. At least Snape is still an interesting character. Go Snape!


Still wasn't worth 400 pages worth of bad shippy fanfic. Luna was a hoot, though.

[Wounded_Dragon]

If the theory "only works if Snape is a good person," explain how and why Snape kept Voldemort and the Death Eaters from the prophecy in the last book as well as saved the kids
Snape mentions early in the book that he's spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort. Snape did NOT keep the prophecy from Voldemort, that was everyone else.



why Dumbledore asked Harry to fetch Snape immediately upon their return, why Dumbledore would be groveling for his life given his attitudes about deathDumbledore was pleading because he didn't want to be wrong about Severus. That has no bearing on whether Snape wasn't evil.



why Snape was still giving Harry good advice disguised as insults as he always has throughout the series. That's opinion and you know it. Snape has never deliberately helped Harry of his own accord ever.

EDIT: The broom bit from book 1...keep in mind that Severus owes the Potters a debt.


Also, its entirely possible that people have once practiced the "Dark Arts" and not stay evil or redeem themselves. Having once done Dark Magic isn't enough to conclusively call Snape evil.I think casting AK on Dumbledore *is.*

It's LONG past time for the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape so much to come out, but the crap Dumbledore fed us doesn't meet muster.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Snape mentions early in the book that he's spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort. Snape did NOT keep the prophecy from Voldemort, that was everyone else.

Yes, he says that he's spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort to Death Eaters. That in itself provides sufficient motivation for what he said. Regarding keeping the prophecy for Voldemort: In the original post, I referenced the scene where Harry tries to convey to Snape about what he thinks is going on with regards to Voldemort torchering Sirius in the Department of Mysteries. Snape correctly interpreted what was going on and relayed that information over to the Order of the Phoenix that Harry was headed over to the Department of Mysteries. It was the Order members that saved the kids and the prophecy. Had Snape been on the Death Eaters' side, it would have been of utmost importance to ensure that the prophecy got in Voldemort's hands. Instead, he completely foiled their efforts. Why would Snape have done that if his loyalties did not truly lie with Dumbledore?



Dumbledore was pleading because he didn't want to be wrong about Severus. That has no bearing on whether Snape wasn't evil.

Still, were he pleading with Severus like that it ultimately came down to whether Dumbledore lost his life over it or not. Dumbledore quite clearly took care of his affairs with Harry, and quite clearly valued Harry's life much more than his own. Given his attitude toward death, I just can't see him pleading along those lines.



That's opinion and you know it. Snape has never deliberately helped Harry of his own accord ever.

EDIT: The broom bit from book 1...keep in mind that Severus owes the Potters a debt.

Snape has always loathed Harry, but helped him and given him good advice, for example with regards to shielding his feelings, saving harry on the broomstick as you mentioned, the scenes from book five i talked about before, trying to teach Harry to use nonverbal spells, etc. If Snape were truly evil I doubt he'd have much concience about the "debt" he owes to the Potters.

EDIT: To add to the list, I just remembered, Snape also could have easily not tried to save Harry from the percieved threat of Sirius and Lupin in the third book, as well as try to back Harry up by showing his Dark Mark to Fudge in the fourth.


I think casting AK on Dumbledore *is.*

It's LONG past time for the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape so much to come out, but the crap Dumbledore fed us doesn't meet muster.

Casting Avada Kedavra doesn't neccessarily make someone evil, to our knowledge. Having the Dark Arts background, Snape clearly understands how to cast it. However, unlike the Cruciatus Curse, we don't know for certain what the prerequisites of casting Avada Kedavra actually are.

Dumbledore isn't an idiot, and he must have trusted Snape for a very good reason. Much like Harry, when it comes down to it Snape is Dumbledore's man and has proven himself to be unquestioningly loyal. The more I think about it, the more I realize that Dumbledore and Snape envisioned something like this coming as soon as Snape had to make the Unbreakable vow. Dumbledore trusted Snape enough to do what needed to be done and perform what I consider to be the ultimate sacrifice, and Snape has given up everything for that.

In any case, I think there's a good amount of evidence for both sides, and I think the way JK has structured this part of the plot (particularly the ambiguity) is downright brilliant. I can't wait to see how it plays out.

[Karl Olson]

Having once done Dark Magic isn't enough to conclusively call Snape evil.

Especially since Harry, albeit unintensionally intially, does use Dark Magic in this book. However, the fact that he takes a stab at a couple Dark Spells in the attempt to take down Snape means that it's also he's willing to take on that burden on directly if he thinks he can serve justice by it (which would be oddly Snape-like if Snape's really on the side of good.) In fact, it's probably a good thing Hermione and Ron insist upon coming with him - they should help keep him stable and honest as long as they don't die. I mean, I could totally see the pyrrhic victory angle out of JK (losing the friends, resorting to the same dark magic to off him, becoming what he hates, etc,) but I could also see the triumphant victory (friends lives, power of love, etc) just as easily. She set it up very well, and really, that what this volume, and really all the volumes up until now have been: set up. Various little bits scattered across over 2,500+ pages leading up to grand finale.

And yeah, I'd definitely run with Snape being another twist and element, and that Snape is still on the side of good. In fact, it's probably good that some people are firmly convinced like Harry and the rest of the Wizarding world in that book that Snape has gone dark. It means that he secretly inform the minstry of various dark happenings without cumberance. He can play deep throat. This is great for J.K., because yet again she'll be able to sucker punch the readers who are taking Harry's view on Snape as law, and in general, it means that JK's writing is as good as ever, if not better. The fact that we are 6 volumes in and we still can't honestly pin him is awesome. It's really sharp, and it's great writing. Any good double agent would not make his intensions known this early in the game, if Snape isn't evil, then he's still smart enough to know when you've got to make a sacrifice play. I could easily believe the row with Dumbledore was about issues with killing him.

An interesting note is how much this volume does feel rooted in modern events. Definitely some eerie overtones, and maybe even some outright commentary (the false imprisonment angle being particularly direct, as was filch's searching of students.) Frankly, it's somewhat Tolkien-esque, which is a good thing. I've got a feeling it may not come up as much in the next book, so this was probably the only time to get those feelings in there as well.

[RayChuang]

After just finishing this book (which I thought was excellent--her best work since Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban), I may want to propose this controversial commentary:

What if Professor Dumbledore deliberately set up his own passing? :eek:

Crazy idea? Not as wild as you think if you read the book carefully, because you note that Dumbledore was already quite weak physically when we see him for the first time. That tells me (in my humble opinion!) he may be dying; it's probably the reason why Dumbledore is imparting as much of his knowledge of Lord Voldemort to Harry Potter personally as fast as possible so Harry Potter can better directly confront Voldemort. Is it possible that Professor Snape unwittingly killed Dumbledore to fulfill Dumbledore's master plan, an act that will set the stage for Voldemort's final fall? :confused:

[BeastBoyWonder]

After just finishing this book (which I thought was excellent--her best work since Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban), I may want to propose this controversial commentary:

What if Professor Dumbledore deliberately set up his own passing? :eek:

Crazy idea? Not as wild as you think if you read the book carefully, because you note that Dumbledore was already quite weak physically when we see him for the first time. That tells me (in my humble opinion!) he may be dying; it's probably the reason why Dumbledore is imparting as much of his knowledge of Lord Voldemort to Harry Potter personally as fast as possible so Harry Potter can better directly confront Voldemort. Is it possible that Professor Snape unwittingly killed Dumbledore to fulfill Dumbledore's master plan, an act that will set the stage for Voldemort's final fall? :confused:


LOL, that's exactly what I was saying.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Yes, he says that he's spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort to Death Eaters. That in itself provides sufficient motivation for what he said. Regarding keeping the prophecy for Voldemort.AGAIN, you're assuming he's lying to the Death Eaters, because you want him to be good. Big hole there. I'm not going to bother justifying why Snape's actions pre-HBP are for Voldemort because Snape SAID they were for Voldemort. Until proven otherwise, I go with what's been shown. And Snape has never been shown to be a nice guy. Ever.


Still, were he pleading with Severus like that it ultimately came down to whether Dumbledore lost his life over it or not. Dumbledore quite clearly took care of his affairs with Harry, and quite clearly valued Harry's life much more than his own. Given his attitude toward death, I just can't see him pleading along those lines..Oh please. There's a difference between not being afraid of death and being suicidal. Dumbledore is the former but you're saying he is of the latter.

As for taking care of his affairs, that's not much of a surprise, given how tense the atmosphere in the WW. It seemed like anyone could die (at least until we got to the shipping crap.) At that point, I imagine Dumbledore was trying to keep his affairs in order at all times.


Snape has always loathed Harry, but helped him and given him good advice, for example with regards to shielding his feelings, saving harry on the broomstick as you mentioned, the scenes from book five i talked about before, trying to teach Harry to use nonverbal spells, etc. If Snape were truly evil I doubt he'd have much concience about the "debt" he owes to the Potters..The debt may or may not be be a matter of consciene. Look at the Unbreakable Vow.

He has never given him good advice that he couldn't have gotten from anyone else.



Casting Avada Kedavra doesn't neccessarily make someone evil, to our knowledge. Having the Dark Arts background, Snape clearly understands how to cast it. However, unlike the Cruciatus Curse, we don't know for certain what the prerequisites of casting Avada Kedavra actually are..
You missed the point. Casting the AK to KILLLLLLL is an evil act.



Dumbledore isn't an idiot, and he must have trusted Snape for a very good reason. Much like Harry, when it comes down to it Snape is Dumbledore's man and has proven himself to be unquestioningly loyal. .Dumbledore's made mistakes before. And KILLING Dumbledore isn't exactly the best sign of loyalty.



The more I think about it, the more I realize that Dumbledore and Snape envisioned something like this coming as soon as Snape had to make the Unbreakable vow. Dumbledore trusted Snape enough to do what needed to be done and perform what I consider to be the ultimate sacrifice, and Snape has given up everything for that..Again, you have to make a HUGE leap for that.


In any case, I think there's a good amount of evidence for both sides, and I think the way JK has structured this part of the plot (particularly the ambiguity) is downright brilliant. I can't wait to see how it plays out.The evidence for Snape being a cold-hearted "illegitimate son" is all over the place. How he treats everyone else is indicative of it. You have to look at Snape with the rosiest of glasses to believe this theory of Snape being good.

Too bad Dumbledore is just the kind of optimist that would.

[BeastBoyWonder]

AGAIN, you're assuming he's lying to the Death Eaters, because you want him to be good. Big hole there. I'm not going to bother justifying why Snape's actions pre-HBP are for Voldemort because Snape SAID they were for Voldemort. Until proven otherwise, I go with what's been shown. And Snape has never been shown to be a nice guy. Ever.

I wasn't citing that as an example of him conclusively lying to the Death Eaters -- that example was merely to show that you can't neccessarily take what he said to Bella and Cissy at face value because there are other very plausible motivations for his saying that, each one as equally valid as the next. As I've shown previously, he SAID that his actions were for Voldemort but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I never said that Snape being a "nice guy" had anything to do with it, he's a bastard and clearly prejudiced against Harry, but that's different than understanding the neccessity of Harry's existance and being loyal to Dumbledore. I believe that the books have shown enough evidence that Snape does value Harry's existance and loyalty to Dumbledore. Right now this entire argument is based upon the assumption that Snape is blanketly "evil" and pointing out the logical fallacies of that. You have yet to show the logical fallacies in the theory that Snape could possibly have more noble intentions without making the assumption that he doesn't first.


Oh please. There's a difference between not being afraid of death and being suicidal. Dumbledore is the former but you're saying he is of the latter.

As for taking care of his affairs, that's not much of a surprise, given how tense the atmosphere in the WW. It seemed like anyone could die (at least until we got to the shipping crap.) At that point, I imagine Dumbledore was trying to keep his affairs in order at all times.

I wasn't calling him suicidal -- I was merely explaining that given Dumbledore's attitudes toward death he wouldn't be pleading because of a consequence that resulted in his death. Under the assumption that Snape is evil, you are correct in that Dumbledore's pleading to Snape could be construed as begging for Snape to reconsider, but under different assumptions its just as plausible that Dumbledore was reinforcing and legitimizing what he'd already asked Snape to do. Admittedly, his pleading in itself isn't indicative of anything, although its highly doubtful that he was merely pleading for his life.

As far as taking care of his affairs, the general tone of the book and the way Dumbledore continously reinforced the importance of Harry's life over his own is indicative that he was expecting death coming.


You missed the point. Casting the AK to KILLLLLLL is an evil act.

I'll refer you to Karl Olsen's post. Does using the Cruciatus Curse make Harry evil? What is the justification for casting AK to be evil?


Dumbledore's made mistakes before. And KILLING Dumbledore isn't exactly the best sign of loyalty.

Killing Dumbledore is a sign of loyalty if it is what Dumbledore and Snape are planning from the start, and what Dumbledore wants.



Again, you have to make a HUGE leap for that.

This is purely conjecture, based upon a different set of assumptions than yours. That part was not meant as a rebuttal to your post.


The evidence for Snape being a cold-hearted "illegitimate son" is all over the place. How he treats everyone else is indicative of it. You have to look at Snape with the rosiest of glasses to believe this theory of Snape being good.

Once again, there is a difference between behaving in a boorish, prejudiced, ignorant, and uninformed manner and being outright "evil." You already feel that Snape is evil, and use that to substantiate all your arguments against why Snape could possibly good (because he has to be evil because he's a meanie), whereas there are clear problems with the notion that Snape is blanketly evil in general that are not already related to underlying assumptions that he's good.


Too bad Dumbledore is just the kind of optimist that would.

It is true that Dumbledore makes mistakes, but he's not gullible by any means (just look at his treatment of Tom Riddle once he gets to Hogwarts). Dumbledore does but trust and show faith in people, but its not blind... if he regarded people like Tom Riddle and Lucius Malfoy with the suspicion that he did, he would certainly not just accept Snape like that. Even for people that he [I] does trust, such as Harry and other members of the Order of the Pheonix, he witholds quite a bit of information from. Case in point: Harry is the only individual that Dumbledore passed all of his information onto regarding the prophecy and an entire understanding of Voldemort's being. That's not the kind of stuff that he's told Snape, and in that sense I don't find him gullible. Both Snape and Dumbledore are much more nuanced and complicated characters than what you're making them out to be.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Apparently murder is no longer evil...I think that ends my participation in this discussion.

[AF$]

Dumbledore's made mistakes before. And KILLING Dumbledore isn't exactly the best sign of loyalty.

I disagree. It's entirely possible that after he made the Unbreakable Vow, he went to Dumbledore and they went over their options. Dumbledore realizes he is dying and knows that they need a presence on the Death Eater side to know what is up. Sacrificing himself to Snape/Malfoy lets him keep his spy (and erases the loyalty issues that some Death Eaters had, I would imagine). There are a million different scenarios for both sides that could be used to explain whether Snape is good or evil.



The evidence for Snape being a cold-hearted "illegitimate son" is all over the place. How he treats everyone else is indicative of it.

This is true, which is precisely why so many people think Snape is still good. JKR never seems to tip her hand THAT much when concerning future plot twists. It really wouldn't surprise me at all to see Snape redeem himself somehow in some character-defining moment in the last book.

Also, any guess on who RAB is? If it is someone they have already mentioned in the books, my guess who be for Regulus Black. He's the only person I can think of with first and third initials of R and B.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Apparently murder is no longer evil...I think that ends my participation in this discussion.

There's no need to get emotional about it or take it personally. Seeing as I'm a pacifist and I'm against killing of an unwilling subject in any form, I would agree with your revulsion to murder. However, once again, calling it "murder" reveals a preconcieved notion of it being unwilling to begin with. The alternate explanation of why it occurred explains that Dumbledore, in fact, did want to die at that particular moment by Snape's hand. His pleading to Snape could be construed as another confirmation of that fact.

[Wounded_Dragon]

There's no need to get emotional about it or take it personally. Seeing as I'm a pacifist and I'm against killing of an unwilling subject in any form, I would agree with your revulsion to murder. However, once again, calling it "murder" reveals a preconcieved notion of it being unwilling to begin with. The alternate explanation of why it occurred explains that Dumbledore, in fact, did want to die at that particular moment by Snape's hand. His pleading to Snape could be construed as another confirmation of that fact.
Here's the flaw in that thinking...you admit Dumbledore's suicidal. But if he's as intelligent as setting all this up that you theorized, he should know Harry needs a lot more help than what he's been given so far. His "training" in this book consisted of basically home movies...One night of conversations and viewings should've been enough, but Dumbledore dragged it out, leaving Harry quite unprepared for the task that faces him now. Harry couldn't even deal with Malfoy, Snape swatted him like a fly at the end...Harry is woefully underprepared and again, it's thanks to Dumbledore's regimen.

How is this setting up Harry to succeeed? Looks more like throwing to the wolves to me. Maybe even murder (placing a minor in a dangerous situation that he cannot reasonably be expected to escape from)

As for Snape: I'm working towards getting my teaching license and Snape has always been the antithesis of everything I've been taught. If there's something Snape does, do the opposite and that's what a real teacher does. At least until the college level/upper-mid high school levels and in Harry Potter, perhaps the 6th and 7th year books. Snape's been doing that to 11 year olds.

He's the Anti-Me. Kinda hard to not be emotional about that.

I usually want Snape to be good in Fanon, actually, precisely because I loathe Canon!Snape because of this.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Here's the flaw in that thinking...you admit Dumbledore's suicidal. But if he's as intelligent as setting all this up that you theorized, he should know Harry needs a lot more help than what he's been given so far. His "training" in this book consisted of basically home movies...One night of conversations and viewings should've been enough, but Dumbledore dragged it out, leaving Harry quite unprepared for the task that faces him now. Harry couldn't even deal with Malfoy, Snape swatted him like a fly at the end...Harry is woefully underprepared and again, it's thanks to Dumbledore's regimen.

How is this setting up Harry to succeeed? Looks more like throwing to the wolves to me. Maybe even murder (placing a minor in a dangerous situation that he cannot reasonably be expected to escape from)

As for Snape: I'm working towards getting my teaching license and Snape has always been the antithesis of everything I've been taught. If there's something Snape does, do the opposite and that's what a real teacher does. At least until the college level/upper-mid high school levels and in Harry Potter, perhaps the 6th and 7th year books. Snape's been doing that to 11 year olds.

He's the Anti-Me. Kinda hard to not be emotional about that.

I usually want Snape to be good in Fanon, actually, precisely because I loathe Canon!Snape because of this.

Your revulsion to Snape is totally understandable. He's a revolting person and a terrible teacher, and its absolutely inexcusable that any teacher would treat children in such a fashion. He's a very nasty and prejudiced person to many of his students, but *especially* from Harry's point of view. Harry doesn't exactly give him the benefit of the doubt though, ever, which is why after everything its inconcievable to him that Snape might not be "evil." There's a *huge* difference between being ignorant and nasty in the way you treat people and having completely evil intentions... Snape's proven himself to be a more complex character than that, and although he hates Harry, has understood his neccessity and saved him on countless occassions.

As far as Dumbledore's death, here's kind of how it goes down: Its not that Dumbledore is "suicidal" and doesn't want to live, but that Snape had no choice but to agree with the Unbreakable Vow to maintain his cover. When discussing it with Dumbledore (and this is where it falls into a bit of conjecture), they likely come into a disagreement about whether Snape should break the Unbreakable Vow (assuming the consequence is death or something like that), or Dumbledore dies. Snape would rather sacrifice himself, but Dumbledore is insistent upon taking the fall. This is likely for a couple reasons: Maintaining Snape's position at Voldemort's side is really important, and because Snape's "defeat" means that Malfoy would die too. Judging from the scene between Dumbledore and Malfoy, Dumbledore clearly regards Malfoy as an innocent thrown into circumstances far beyond his capability, and he doesn't want Malfoy to become a killer. This is why Dumbledore stalls Malfoy, so that Snape can kill him in place of Malfoy and fulfill the Unbreakable Vow. This is why Dumbledore chooses to die by Snape's hand -- its the product of their "worst case scenario" analysis.

As far as Harry's training is concerned like what you mention, if Dumbledore knew that he might go at any point it is not the training of Harry's skills that's important, but rather what he needs to know that is. Harry's skills are going to continue to develop, and that's something that he can do on his own. On the other hand, Dumbledore can do a few things for Harry that would be much more difficult for him on his own: Dumbledore gives Harry the essential background information that he needs to take down Voldemort, and he also involves Harry in the process, allowing him to become more indpendent and free from dependency on Dumbledore. The other stuff Harry will grow into and can take care of on his own, and given everything that Harry's done and mastered so far, Dumbledore knows that.

Its also interesting to note JK's word choice when describing Snape's reaction before killing Dumbledore. He could have been unsettled about what he had to do to Dumbledore much in the same way that Harry was unsettled about giving Dumbledore the drink.

EDIT: I just reread the last bit of the story again for the first time, and there were a couple things that struck me: I'd mentioned earlier that Snape could have probably taken Harry back with him to Voldemort. Upon re-reading it, Snape saved Harry from the Cruciatus Curse of another Death Eater and had Harry at his complete mercy... Buckbeak did come to save him after seeing Harry attacked, but there was quite a span of time where Snape and completely and utterly mastered Harry, and the Death Eaters could have brought him back. Also, Snape wasn't even close to brutal enough for having been revealed as a Death Eater... he could have killed Hermione (whom he told to tend to Flitwick, instead) and dozens of others, but he just let them all go.

[RayChuang]

Steel, I'll make some comments in spoiler mode:

1. I think we need to be ducking a lot of brickbats over what we BOTH think about Dumbledore's passing. :sweat: As I said earlier, note the fact Dumbledore is far more physically frail in Half-Blood Prince than in previous books; he is definitely very close to the end of his life and wants to do as much as possible to get Harry Potter to be ready to finally confront Voldemort. If Dumbledore was in far better physical condition I don't think he would be revealing so many secrets about Voldemort's past to Potter until later.

2. I am pretty impressed at how Rowling filled in the backstory about the past of Voldemort's family line. That tells me by the time when his mother was alive that the wizarding world has effectively shunned the descendants of Salazar Slytherin.

3. Note that in Books 4 through 6 that Rowling has a somewhat dim view of newspapers in the wizarding world. Note Rita Skeeter's scandalmongering, Luna Lovegood's embarassment of her father's newspaper, and everyone putting down The Daily Prophet as mostly inaccurate.

4. Have you noticed that in this novel a lot of the British lingo that was excised in the past American editions are gone? The current US-edition novel has pretty much kept most of it intact.

5. If you carefully read between the lines, why do I think that Potter is an unintentional horcrux of Voldemort? That explains why Potter has the head scar and why the Sorting Hat nearly put Potter in the Slytherin house.

[Agent S7]

This book can be summed up in three words: It's Magically Delicious.
:eek: :)

[Lachesis]

So given the assumption that Snape must kill Dumbledore to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow, and that Dumbledore considers Snape's position as one of Voldemort's essential assistants to be of utmost importance, it all fits together very well: Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow, Dumbledore wraps up everything that he needs to do with Harry and gives him the knowledge that he needs, enforces to Snape that killing him is important (resulting in the argument that Hagrid overheard), Dumbledore getting Harry to fetch Snape as soon as they get back, Dumbledore not letting Harry save him but allowing him to witness the events under the Invisibility Cloak, pleading with Snape to have the courage to kill him, and then what transpires in the final scene.

Its true that Snape loathes Harry with every fiber of his being, but also appreciates the neccessity of his existance. Ironically, Snape could end up being very much like Sirius, where doing what seems like the right thing damns him to percieved guilt by everybody else. I'm almost certain that there's more to a very nuanced character like Snape than meets the eye -- Dumbledore had his reasons for trusting snape, and I'm *very* interested to see how that pans out.


Thanks for that. This is *exactly* how I see things. Rowling has really harped on Harry's prejudices against Snape coloring his actions, and now he's got the rest of the staff and his friends thinking along the same lines. It's too pat, and obviously setting us up for Harry *finally* getting past all the bad blood (pardon the pun). He's already started empathizing with Draco.

[Wounded_Dragon]

If that's what you consider what Harry needs to know to win, then I consider Dumbledore an accomplice to attempted murder, along with Snape. Skills improve my arse.

Sometimes an evil guy is just that: an evil guy. It's not like the rest of the book was handled with subtlety and grace.

[Matsuo]

I have to say. Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince was such a snog-fest. But that's partly why I enjoyed it so much. I really, really think Rowling did a great job at "upping" the book's maturity. And yes, I love the Harry/Ginny match up. It makes me happy to no end.

But I think the 2nd chapter, the one where Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow was a dead give away to the true Snape. Firstly, if you remember from Ron's explination of what the Vow does is that if it is not completed the one who makes the vow dies. Secondly, I'm placing mucho importance on Dumbledore repeatedly saying he trusts Snape, even though Snape killed him. But the final battle of the chapter confused me a bit with the exchange between Harry and Snape while the Death Eaters were tryign to retreat. This is the last evidence I have to suggest tells us what Snape's really up to. Even though Harry was coming at him with everything he had, Snape did not choose to kill him outright. My theory is, Dumbledore's death at the hands of Snape makes there no question in Voldemort's eyes that he is loyal. Now this could give Snape a chance to instill his own manipulation in Voldemort's plans from now on. In short, I think Snape's a good guy, and Dumbledore was an unfortunate death that had to be completed in order to further Voldemort's own demise.

The fake Horcrux made me cry. All that for nothing. But it's good to hear that at least the one who really has it is planning to destroy it. The initials R.A.B.? Wasn't Sirius' brother named Regelus? Or something like that. His name came first into my mind after he was mentioned once or twice in HBP. And the letter did state that he should be dead by the time the letter was read.

I bet the 7th book will be really, insanely dark as Harry looks for the Horcruxes alone. Then while he's doing this I could almost bet Rowling will switch to Ginny's/Ron's/Hermione's point of view at Hogwarts. I really, really think Ginny will play a massive role in the next book being Harry's love interest. I can't put enough emphasis on that.

[Hordesman]

Dumbledore's meetings with Harry were also to assess his state of preparation. I say he's on the right path, having been written as beginning to empathize with both Riddle and Malfoy in this book- and Snape in the previous one. And then there's Pettigrew who owes his life to Harry. In Star Wars, that's what ultimately ensured Luke's success. And where it all start? From a mentor who allowed himself to be struck down in the young man's presence.

And that might make Snape the soldier with the worst duty: to stand and fight against what he is truly loyal to in order to save it.

Ginny/Harry kinda threw me, but I liked how it was presented. If there is one thing I can't stand it's "Harry loved Ginny because she was beautiful, a great Quidditch player, etc." Love happens, it's not explained and sometimes it just comes out of the blue. And I feel JKR was pretty good about showing rather than telling- even if it was Harry's pov, just like anything else in these books. Where do you actually read the words "Mrs.
Weasley did not like her future daughter-in-law"? The conflict is entirely presented and resolved in Harry's pov. And Fleur's love and resolve are mirrored in Ginny's scene at the funeral. Ginny is Harry's match imo. And Lupin? Well, I'm glad he found someone new. Here's hoping for the Creevey brothers who showed up on page 300 with Harry fangirls.

[g_UnIt_GaNsTa]

Can anyone explain the last Harry Potter to me? I only got around 20 pages in and then lost the book and I want to buy this one without being lost.

[TuffyCatt]

After dwelling on the book for a while and reading some of these posts, I think I'm going to have to agree with everyone who feels that Snape is still possibly good. Immediately after finishing the book, I had decided that Snape had been evil all along, that he was a terrible, lying, betraying person, and that poor Dumbledore had been fooled at last. However, after thinking it over for a while, I just can't accept the fact that Dumbledore could be so easily deceived. I don't think there is absolutely anything that Dumbledore has made more clear throughout the course of the books than the fact that he totally trusts Snape. There must be a reason for that. I'm leaning toward the large amount of evidence that shows that Snape is still on the right side, that he and Dumbledore had discussed the fact that Snape may be forced to kill Dumbledore, and that Snape showed his loyalty to Dumbledore by carrying out the order. I'm not saying that I believe that Dumbledore was suicidal. I think that Dumbledore really wanted to stay around for as long as he was able, but the time had come where there really wasn't any other choice. In order for Snape to continue to seem loyal to the death eaters and for Voldemort to continue to have faith in Snape, Dumbledore had to die.

I also feel that something else important may come out of Dumbledore's death. The brief glimpse that Harry gets of a joyful Phoenix rising from Dumbledore's body at his funeral makes me wonder, although I haven't really come to any conclusion about what it might mean. If it is true that something good will come of Dumbledore's death, then I think the possibility that Snape is evil is also plausible. Even if Dumbledore knew that Snape was still working for the death eaters, he may have trusted Snape in the fact that he knew Snape would kill him in the end, which is what ultimately had to happen. I don't know if that makes any sense...oh well. I feel that this theory is a little shakier and has less going for it than the "Snape is still good" theory, but J.K. Rowling has surprised me many times in the past and I'm sure that she will continue to do so. However, whether Snape is good or evil, I will never believe that Dumbledore's trust in him was unfounded or that Dumbledore was deceived.

Anyway, that's what I think. As for the book as a whole I thought it was quite good and I overall really enjoyed it. I thought the book was a little rushed in some places and the relationships that developed in book sometimes felt a little weird, but nothing was too bad. I love pretty much every meeting between Harry and Dumbledore. I love the respect that Dumbledore has for Harry and how we got to know Dumbledore even better throughout this story. The fact that we are all being kept guessing at the end of this novel just goes to show what a good story teller Rowling is.

[bigddan11]

You know, with the entire Hogwart's being closed deal that occurred at the end of the book, I'm thinking Hogwarts is more likely the location of the final battle between Harry and Voldemort in the next book. I think Hogwarts will be included, but most of the action won't take place there. I basically see Book 7 occurring in 2 possible ways:

1) Harry, Ron, and Hermoine search out 3 of the remaining 4 horcruxes, and then they battle the final 2 at Hogwarts with Fawkes returning because of Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore. Along the way, they are forced to kill Death Eaters guarding each horcrux, and when they realize that RAB is Regelus they are forced to return to Grimwauld Place and confront the Order of the Phoenix members who insist on joining him for the rest of the battle.

The other possibility is this: 2) The members of the order have been locating the horcruxes and have taken them to Hogwarts setting a trap for Voldemort. Voldemort gathers all his forces and attacks Hogwarts with all his might, but he finds that the leader of the Order is now Harry leading to the final showdown.
No matter what you say though, Book 7 will be quiet interesting when it comes out. Snape's true character still needs to be revealed, and if Snape truly is on the side of the Order, then someone else in the Order must know that Dumbledore was going to be killed at the end of Book 6. My guess would be McGonagall, because Hagrid was to stunned to have that type of knowledge. I'm interested to know what the Ministry is going to do though in Book 7, because they've basically done nothing in Book 6. Could they be a hindrance to Harry? Will they join Voldemort? Will Harry be revealed as a descendant of Gryffindor? All answers will be revealed, hopefully in July 2007.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Dumbledore is not infallible. In fact, he's capable of huge mistakes. I thought OotP had cleared that up for everyone.

[Fone Bone]

Harry being a horcrux wouldn't make too much sense unless Rowling wants Voldemort to win and kill all of the characters which is a questionable decision in a children's book. One has to destroy the other and Harry can't actually kill Voldemort if a piece of him resides inside him.

After hearing Steel's arguments Snape's betrayel makes even LESS sense if that's possible. I personally think it can go either way although I would be beyond impressed with Rowling if she decides to make Snape good and Malfoy innocent as this conflicts with what the books have told us so far. As I said the message that blood doesn't matter rings false if both Malfoy and Snape are evil. I'm betting Rowling knows this and will make one or (hopefully) both good in the final book.

Good explainations Steel which give me hope for the final book (Snape was my favorite character before because he was complicated). The idea that Dumbledore knew he would die and was trying to get Snape to fulfill his mission is an interesting one. There WERE a lot of things about Snape's betrayel that didn't make a lick of sense and the fact that he killed the ultimate good guy in the book and is still so hard to peg is a good thing.

One problem: Though Harry has matured beyond recognition in this book without Dumbledore to explain these things, IF Snape is good HOW will this information be conveyed to Harry? The one problem with the theory is that Dumbledore SHOULD have told someone else if Snape and Dumbledore had planned this (preferably McGonagal or Lupin). Not telling ANYONE (and EVERYONE was shocked by these turn of events) was a huge mistake as if Snape was still working for the Order he would still need SOMEONE to keep in contact with. This is the only problem with the theory, but as far as I'm concerned is a huge one.

Edit: One last thing concerning people's issue with all of the "snogging" being handled without subtley and grace: That's what being a teenager is about. You don't always have a real reason why you are attracted to someone and vice versa. It was certainly handled better than most of primetime televsion's ships. Even Buffy and Angel seemed to only be each other's one true loves because the writer's tell us so, rather than any substantive reason.

[silverwings]

SNIPTook the words right out of my mouth. I entirely agree with the views on Snape.

I still think he's redeemable and that this was what had to happen.

I also felt very sorry for Malfoy. I really want him to become a good guy now. He's in need of a little redemption/revenge himself.

I was surprised to find Snape to be the HBP. The fact that he's head of Slyerian (sp) whose founder hated everyone who wasn't pureblood... I find that incrediably ironic.

I was also surprised at how little the HBP had to do with anything in this book. Yes, his book helped put some things in motion, but otherwise the title (for the first time) was incrediably misleading.

I want to know who R.A.B. is. I think this was the worse cliffhanger Rowling has given us yet.:D

[Fone Bone]

If that's what you consider what Harry needs to know to win, then I consider Dumbledore an accomplice to attempted murder, along with Snape. Skills improve my arse.Maybe. But's it's also possible that defeating Voldemort is more important than putting other people at risk.


Sometimes an evil guy is just that: an evil guy. It's not like the rest of the book was handled with subtlety and grace.Sometimes a cigar IS just a cigar. But considering how little I've been able to predict these books I'd say it's likely it could still go either way.

[enigmatic_one]

Hey all, I'm a long time lurker who's always enjoyed reading all the various debates and discussions on these forums and finally decided it was time to join up and leap into the throng myself.

That said, I'm especially intrigued by the debate just going on here concerning whether or not Snape was killing Dumbledore on his orders or not (upon finishing the book and meditating on it for a while I myself had begun to have similar lines of thought, eg Dumbledore begging Snape to kill him rather than what seemed to take place). While the discussion was most fascinating to read, I felt something had been overlooked by both parties. Dumbledore arrived on the astronemy tower extremely weakened by the potion he had drinken in Voldemort's cave, and the fact is that we do not know the extent of the fraility. It is entirely possible that the potion was poison and that regardless of how events played from then on that he would have died. Assuming this is the case, there are three possible options. One, that he could allow Malfoy to kill him, a feat that malfoy did not seem prepared to do, ultimately, and something I doubt Dumbledore would have wanted (although at this point it seems likely that Voldy will have Malfoy killed, I still have hopes for his repentence and redemption in the next book). Two, that Dumbledore could somehow save himself, defeat the deatheaters, only to die shortly after due to the poison, thus making his death pointless and consequencely killing Snape as well due to his unbreakable vow (remember, this is all assuming that Snape is indeed still loyal to Dumbledore). Or thirdly, that Dumbledore could allow Snape to instead kill him (a short time before he would die anyway), allieving any shadow of doubt from Voldemort that Snape was a traitor and firmly establishing him in a place of trust where he shall be able to assist Harry in the final battle, when it really counts. Some might say that this last option is discredible due to the fact that Snape didn't know Dumbledore was dying anyway, but I would remind you that both wizards in question are highly skilled in legilmens and so some telepathic conversation may have taken place prior to Snape's arrival on the tower.

All that said, although I beleive there is significient evidence that Snape is still good and due to JK's style of writing, that the subtleties are not there by accident, I do sincerely hope that I am wrong and that he is evil because regardless of his motives, after seeing him kill Dumbledore (figuratively seeing), I really do hate him and want to see him killed as a treacherous coward.

On an entirely different note, I too felt the moment R.A.F. was mentioned that it had to be Sirius' brother and furtherly beleive that he's actually still alive out there and will help Harry in the next book.

(PS. Absolutely loved the book, possibley the best one yet. Much easier to read than OotP.)

~Enigmatic One

[TuffyCatt]

Just to clear up a point made in my earlier post, I don't believe that Dumbledore was by any means perfect. I understand that he had the ability to make mistakes. However, the fact that his trust in Snape was something he believed in so strongly, and that his trust in Snape is something that he's been repeatedly defending since book 1, makes it almost impossible for me to believe that Dumbledore's trust was founded only Snape's repentence over the death of James and Lily. There has to be more to it. Dumbledore may have the tendency to be optimistic about people, but by no means is he gullible or easily manipulated. I may have been able to believe that Dumbledore made the ultimate mistake in trusting Snape if it weren't for the fact that that trust was something that Dumbledore believed more strongly in than almost any of the other opinions that he's expressed throughout the books. There must be some reason behind this, a reason that we still don't know. Anyway, that's why I still think, in this case, it's impossible that Dumbledore was truly deceived by Snape.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Maybe. But's it's also possible that defeating Voldemort is more important than putting other people at risk.
I'm not following this at all. Dumbledore took his sweet time finding out that they need to destroy holcruxes and never got around to teaching Harry things that might be needed to accomplish said task. And Harry didn't do too well in the task he underwent in this novel.

[Karl Olson]

Hmm... now that I think about it, Harry's right, there are a lot of similarities between Snape and Voldemort. However, that allows for another element to come into plyay: mirror characterization. Yeah, they were very similar in a lot of ways, however, one critical difference comes into play: Dumbledore trusted Snape, and he never trusted Voldemort. Sure, Occulumency comes into play, but the truth is that Dumbledore was the most powerful wizard outside of Voldemort, where as Snape is nothing in comparison, so Snape's not likely to bamboozle Dumbledore. This act had to have been something Snape and Dumbledore knew could happen, and that worst case scenario played out. Both likely knew it was best if Harry thought Snape was evil cause Harry is total crap at Occulumency (probably why Dumbledore made sure he was frozen to witness the events.) If they told him the truth, it was much too easy for that truth to be discovered (especially since Voldemort could look into his mind even easier because of the scar,) and then Snape's sacrifices, and in turn Dumbledore's death, would be for nothing. Snape is, in a sense, a better character than ever, and he's right when he says he's not a coward. The cowardly thing would have been to die for his noble cause - break the vow and die for Dumbledore. Living for the noble cause, to help save the wizarding world, no, the entire world, from a freakish madman bent on remaking civilization in his image, even though you may become a pariah, may end rotting in some god-awful prison for the rest of your life, may end up dead at the hands of the very people you were trying to protect, is brave because it's a lot harder than just playing the martyr.

[enigmatic_one]

Hmm... now that I think about it, Harry's right, there are a lot of similarities between Snape and Voldemort. However, that allows for another element to come into plyay: mirror characterization. Yeah, they were very similar in a lot of ways, however, one critical difference comes into play: Dumbledore trusted Snape, and he never trusted Voldemort. Sure, Occulumency comes into play, but the truth is that Dumbledore was the most powerful wizard outside of Voldemort, where as Snape is nothing in comparison, so Snape's not likely to bamboozle Dumbledore. This act had to have been something Snape and Dumbledore knew could happen, and that worst case scenario played out. Both likely knew it was best if Harry thought Snape was evil cause Harry is total crap at Occulumency (probably why Dumbledore made sure he was frozen to witness the events.) If they told him the truth, it was much too easy for that truth to be discovered (especially since Voldemort could look into his mind even easier because of the scar,) and then Snape's sacrifices, and in turn Dumbledore's death, would be for nothing. Snape is, in a sense, a better character than ever, and he's right when he says he's not a coward. The cowardly thing would have been to die for his noble cause - break the vow and die for Dumbledore. Living for the noble cause, to help save the wizarding world, no, the entire world, from a freakish madman bent on remaking civilization in his image, even though you may become a pariah, may end rotting in some god-awful prison for the rest of your life, may end up dead at the hands of the very people you were trying to protect, is brave because it's a lot harder than just playing the martyr.

Well said, well said. That's sort of what I was trying to get at towards the end of my post; Snape is too rich a a character for Jk to just toss off like that for the sake of a plot twist. One of the great things about Snape, especially in this book, is that we as the reader had the opportunity to hear what he told Dumbledore's side, and also to hear what he said to Voldemort's side, and yet even we could not know for sure who he was truly loyal to. I've head it theorized in the past that Voldemort has another agent infiltrating Hogwarts (the "most loyal member who's at Hogwarts" whom he speaks of after his ressurection in book four. Yes it seemed to be Crouch, but Crouch denied him in court! Plus it seems too great of a givaway to have it payoff so easily). If Voldemort does have another agent, then they too would have access to both of Snape's testimonies and would also be unsure. By having Harry not know about Snape and Dumbledore planning the death, he can now provide and absolutely real account and fully convince everybody, including any other spies, that he is "Voldemort's man".

~ Enigmatic One

[Drachentöter]

Ah! I think I just unwittingly spoiled the mystery death. >_< Teach me to randomly highlight short spoiler tags...

I still want to post thoughts as I go along though. I just finished chapter twenty-three after a reading from midnight to 2am and from 11:15 to 2:15...so that's about 6 hours and fifteen minutes that I've been reading total.

-It seems to me as if Rowling dumped Cho Chang (a wise choice) for Ginny as Harry's love interest (a lukewarm choice for me at best). Ginny never seemed like a properly fleshed out character to me and she's always been something of a chameleon that suits the environment. She was really shy when Rowling needed her to be shy and now she's extremely brash and visible because Rowling needs her to catch Harry's eye. I suppose such changes in teenagers aren't uncommon, but Harry's sudden change in attitude from one book to the next kind of cheapens the relationship. I would've liked to have seen some more hints in the last book if this is supposed to be the definitive love interest.

But still, better Ginny than Cho.

-I cannot believe Harry does not realize who the Half-Blood Prince is. This really angers me, because it's a poorly contrived mystery when all the clues point to Voldemort. Unless Rowling has a very well-thought-out explanation for someone other than Voldemort, I'm going to call foul and say that the characters aren't being true to themselves. Between Harry, Ron, and Hermonie (who feaking knew that Sirius Black sent Potter a Firebolt for no good reason), someone should've said "Hey, maybe it was Tom Riddle."

In fact...of course...I just realized.

The Advanced Potions Making book could be one of the Horcruxes. The one that Dumbledore thought was either a Ravenclaw or a Gryffindor heirloom. Possibly not, since the book isn't talking to Harry or anything and it'd be kind of tired to do a Tom Riddle book again but...

-And one more theory, I think the boy that Moaning Myrtle was referencing in the boys' bathroom was Malfoy, probably shaken with nerves because of the task he's performing (or failing to perform) for Voldemort or whoever.

All in all, I'm being pretty critical and it's not my favorite book of the series so far (Order of the Phoenix is my favorite, followed by Goblet of Fire, this could fall somewhere above, equal, or below PoA). For one thing, the excessive use of Dumbledore's office and the Pensive almost bore me, were it not for the fascinating information behind it. I wish Rowling would convey Voldemort's past in more original ways throughout the book, but again, I'm assuming the need to trim down length forced her to use the same technique over and over again and use Dumbledore as a narrative mouthpiece.

But it's still J.K. Rowling and it's still an absorbing story and I can't wait to finish it. Just a few notes on the possible spoilers I stupidly stumbled across:

If Snape actually betrays the Order, I will be very, very angry and disappointed because it will strip Snape of the many layers that made his character interesting in my eyes. I think he's more interesting as a triple, quadruple, quintuple agent than a simple double agent who's completely evil.

If Dumbledore is the one who dies, it would make sense to me. He's been holding Harry's hand throughout the series, so he would be the one who should be killed off before Harry makes his final confrontation. Gives the showdown a sense of urgency and significance, since Harry would be the last barrier between Voldemort and power. At any rate, it would be a much better death than Sirius' was last book, which is my least favorite aspect of Order of the Phoenix. Sirirus had a lot of potential as a character, but Dumbledore has just about been completely fleshed out. Honestly, Sirius' death has had little impact on Harry's story whatsoever in Book 6 so far.

[Fone Bone]

I had forgotten to take into account that Harry sucks at Occullamency. The entire theory fits. It can now go either way.

[IanC]

4. Have you noticed that in this novel a lot of the British lingo that was excised in the past American editions are gone? The current US-edition novel has pretty much kept most of it intact.
Wahay, the US publishers have seen sense.

[Karl Olson]

I had forgotten to take into account that Harry sucks at Occullamency. The entire theory fits. It can now go either way.

Exactly, which is excellent writing, cause it means you need to take in all those little bits from the past 2500 something pages. Though Potter would never rat out anyone if he swore not to, he sucks at hiding his feelings. As such, the only way Snape can keep his position as a double agent is for Harry to believe Snape's just plain evil. You convince people of that best when you kill their mentor. If Voldemort takes a stroll through Potter's mind to try to double check Snape's motive, all he'll find is seething, intense hatred.

Shoot, Snape may just have to die at Potter's hand by the time all is said and done because he'll either have to fess up and risk detection (unless Harry does work on his Occlumency, in which case, he could be trusted) or be killed or atleast captured and imprisoned by Potter (or another good wizard/witch) to ensure that no one ever works out his true purpose, because if the Death Eater caught wind of him being an active member of the Order, he'd be dead anyway. Better a quick death than a long, painful torture for information (because Snape is a skilled Occlumens and a sharp potions master and therefore the only way he'll give up knowledge is brutality; he can fend off any other means of information extraction,) and then a violent, painful death.

Basically, this book really only gets things started. The next book is were amazing stuff gets to go down, and it's where an amazing amount of possibility lies.

[atf487]

I've just read a ton of well formed arguments, and I totally agree that snape isnt't entirely evil. The only thing I have to add is that maybe Dumbledore was trying to get snape to give him a potion to make him feel better after taking the potion to get to the horcrux, but with Slughorn there it may not have been that idea.

When it's all said and done, though, book 7 is gonna be a total beast of a novel. Problem is, I don't know if Harry can pull it off. in OotP he was totally ruled by his emotions, and was making very rash decisions. He even destroyed Dumbledore's office, and despite his maturation in HBP I'm not sure if he's ready to go on his own. With the current stream of novels, I almost expect Harry to be killed off, unless he has the help of an entire army.

[peacebyanymeans]

Hey people! Read this: http://www.livejournal.com/users/garlandgraves/3409.html

It's really insightful to R.A.B, the Dumbledore/Snape Conflict, the locket/Mundungus theory and some quotes to support it.

[Kasumi]

She was really shy when Rowling needed her to be shy and now she's extremely brash and visible because Rowling needs her to catch Harry's eye.Actually, it has been stated that Ginny has always been brash. She was only shy because she had a crush on Harry. In OotP, she showed her true colors to Harry.



-I cannot believe Harry does not realize who the Half-Blood Prince is. This really angers me, because it's a poorly contrived mystery when all the clues point to Voldemort. Unless Rowling has a very well-thought-out explanation for someone other than Voldemort, I'm going to call foul and say that the characters aren't being true to themselves. Between Harry, Ron, and Hermonie (who feaking knew that Sirius Black sent Potter a Firebolt for no good reason), someone should've said "Hey, maybe it was Tom Riddle."Um it's not Voldemort. Rowling told us this a long ways back.

Anyway, I finished the book a few hours ago and I gotta say it's one of my favorites. It blows OotP out of the water. Actually all the other books blow OotP away but that's just me.

I whoop for the Harry/Ginny (could smell the whole 'break-up' thing a mile away), Ron/Hermione (Big whoop for them), and other things. Remus/Tonks was way tacked on though.

And I gotta agree with Snape not being evil. My friend called me a fool for it but he's blinded by his hate for Snape. And I was being pretty reasonable too.

[Steve Jester]

My feeling is that I wouldn't go as far as to blatantly call Snape evil yet. There are quite a few things that still don't make sense about it. Like the fact that Dumbledor could be asking to be killed be Snape? I was right about my predection of Dumbledor's death, but that is NOT how I expected it.

In any event, took me 12 - 13+ hours (I am very through...) and I must say this is Jo's best work so far. Many characters came full circle. I am now waiting for Book 7.

And on another topic, I wanted to kill Jo when Ron and Lavender got together. But Jo redemed herself with Harry and Ginny (although it was short lived.)

[Phantasm]

YES!!!!!!

Its EXCATLY! What I was hoping for ever since book 1!!!
Harry and Ginny!
Ron and Hermione!!!!!

*does a happy dance*

"Been kissing Pigwidgeon, have you?"
I love Ginny!

LOL!:D

[Fone Bone]

Exactly, which is excellent writing, cause it means you need to take in all those little bits from the past 2500 something pages. Though Potter would never rat out anyone if he swore not to, he sucks at hiding his feelings. As such, the only way Snape can keep his position as a double agent is for Harry to believe Snape's just plain evil. You convince people of that best when you kill their mentor. If Voldemort takes a stroll through Potter's mind to try to double check Snape's motive, all he'll find is seething, intense hatred.

Shoot, Snape may just have to die at Potter's hand by the time all is said and done because he'll either have to fess up and risk detection (unless Harry does work on his Occlumency, in which case, he could be trusted) or be killed or atleast captured and imprisoned by Potter (or another good wizard/witch) to ensure that no one ever works out his true purpose, because if the Death Eater caught wind of him being an active member of the Order, he'd be dead anyway. Better a quick death than a long, painful torture for information (because Snape is a skilled Occlumens and a sharp potions master and therefore the only way he'll give up knowledge is brutality; he can fend off any other means of information extraction,) and then a violent, painful death.

Basically, this book really only gets things started. The next book is were amazing stuff gets to go down, and it's where an amazing amount of possibility lies.I full expect Snape to die in the last book but I doubt it will be by Harry's hands. IF the theory is right it's possible he'll sacrifice himself to save Harry's life.

Also forgot that Dumbledore appointed Snape Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher which he knew was jinxed which is possibly because he anticipated things might have to go down the way they did.

[Kathy Kane]

I completely agree with Steele about the Dumbledore/Snape thing. I bet that Dumbledore made him have another unbreakable vow for him to kill him. I wonder what Harry's reaction will be when he finds this out. I also think that the vist to the cave was a final test for Harry, to see if he could endure hurting Dumbledore and a test of loyality. I loved the line "Dumbldore's man through and through".
My favorite part of this book was how Harry had changed from last year, he was so MATURE and he was thinking things though, like when he got Slughorn to give him the information and how he stood up to Scrimgeour. This is no longer the Harry, that was angsty from last year or the one from previous books. I enjoyed that the most, his charicter has grown up and isn't taking orders he's giving them. I also notice that he was more physical this year too, like throwing Mudungus against a wall for stealing Black's stuff.
Speaking of which there's theory that R.A.B. is Regulus Black, Sirius's Death Eater brother.
Now as for the teen drama, it's understandable, and I think Harry realizing that relationships between friends will have conquences later on, even when he tries to patch things up (that was sneaky of him, Herimone's Helping Hand)
Anyway, I do think that some things came out of nowhere, Lupin and Tonks, HBP being Snape, Snape is the DADA and the new Potions teacher. I do think that I wished for more details about Harry's school year and I didn't like Harry's obsesion with Draco. Speaking of which, I think Harry should have listened Murtle and found more out about Draco's dilema before acttacking him. That was one brutal curse. I liked the darker stuff, like the zombies!

[Steve Jester]

YES!!!!!!

Its EXCATLY! What I was hoping for ever since book 1!!!
Harry and Ginny!
Ron and Hermione!!!!!

*does a happy dance*

"Been kissing Pigwidgeon, have you?"
I love Ginny!

LOL!:D
:confused: unless i missed something in that last chapter... Ron and Hermione didn't get together in this book. All though Jo kinda made it highly likely in book 7.

And Harry/Ginny was there, but was "called off" in the last chapter. Though I think that Jo's not going to keep them seperate too long ;):evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:

[Fresh V]

I just got my book today. I hope this thread I still here by the time I finish it.

[TheEvilClown]

I got my book today as well and I have already read 5 chapters of it so. I will let you all know what my feelings are after I read the whole thing which will probally be early in the morning because I can't put the book down.

[purplehairedwonder]

Well, due to an abysmal performance by my softball team on Saturday, we were knocked out of the tournament early, so I was able to get my book earlier than anticipated. And now that I'm finished and my head is sufficiently spinning, I'll share some of my thoughts.

I have to say, many of the theories I've read in this thread are well supported. I would like to think that Snape is still good at the core, and looking back through the back and to some of the arguments, I'd say there is a good case for either side. Snape is such a complex character that it becomes very difficult to pin down his exact motivations at any one point. By killing Dumbledore, Snape not only saved Malfoy's skin, but proved his allegience to Voldemort to the Death Eaters and fulfilled his Unbreakable Bond, therefore saving his own life. Dumbledore was indeed much weaker in this edition and seemed to be preparing Harry for an iminent time that he would not be around to guide him. Thus, after drinking the potion the locket was hidden under, Dumbledore was probably dying as it was, and was pleading with Snape to kill him and do what had to be done. The look of revulsion on Snape's face was then not for Dumbledore, but for the act that he had been forced to commit. Pure conjecture, of course.

The chapter title "Flight of the Prince" made me realize who the Prince had to be, but it was still a surprising revelation. Though it should come as no surprise that Harry's potions would improve with the identity of the Prince. However, despite some small important things the Prince's potions book allowed Harry to do (like save Ron), I was surprised at how small a role it/he played in the whole scheme.

I have to wonder, after Kreacher's betrayal of Sirius in OotP, if when Harry told him "Get out of it," if he'll find a loophole in taking that to mean to leave, as when Sirius ordered him to leave the kitchen, he left the house. However, how much use he would be anymore, I'm not sure.

Speaking of Sirius, I was surprised at how Harry (and Lupin for that matter) seemed to be taking it. Sure, JKR mentioned Harry spent a lot of sleepless nights over it, but I was expecting there to be more, especially after his reaction to Cedric's death. I was hoping to see some explanation about the veil this time, but alas, there was none, so we're just supposed to accept that Sirius is dead. I was expecting to see something more out of Lupin as well, considering he was now the only Marauder left (Wormtail of course, not counting). Perhaps he was internally in anguish, but we never see much of that. And I was surprised to hear that Tonks felt guilt over Siruis' death as well. And Tonks/Lupin? Didn't see that one coming.

The fact that there was an archway that lead to the Horcrux makes me wonder if there was any connection to the one in the Department of Mysteries. It could be a coincidence, but I wonder if perhaps, beyond the veil there is something (for lack of a better word). Then again, the archway there was in the wall and the one Sirius fell through was in the middle of a room. But at the same time, I'm disappointed in the lack of explanation about his death. He was my favorite character (excepting Harry) after all.

Poor Bill, being attacked by Greyback and having his face permanently mutilated to some extent. But it was nice to see that Fleur, despite so many of the Weasely clan hating her, was still in love with him. And their wedding occurring in the events of the 7th book, of course. That seems to prove the point that McGonagall makes about Lupin/Tonks: "Dumbledore would have been happier than anybody to think theat there was a little more love in the world." So, with the obvious dark atmosphere that will permeate the 7th book, there is that shining beacon of love that Dumbledore made such a point about being important throughout his whole life.

The romance in this book seemed a bit underdeveloped, but at the same time, all of it came from Harry's POV, and how often is love something that is easily explained? I was so happy to see Harry/Ginny and hints of Ron/Hermione. I doubt that Harry will be able to keep Ginny away from him in the next book. Again, the theme of love conquering all and such. I think Ginny being a love interest for Harry will be important.

I still think, despite his small role in this book, that there is something big in store for Neville. We hear about his new wand, and he and Luna were the only other D.A. members to come when called.

I have to wonder if Scrimgeour is going to be any better than Fudge. He seemed to have the same politcal frame of mind as Fudge, though he was falsely imprisoning people rather than ignoring the danger. Stan Shunpike as a Death Eater? Not likely. I just loved Harry's comment of being "Dumbledore's man, through and through." And of course, the tip of the hat to the second book: "He will only be gone from the school when none here are loyal to him."

I think it's interesting that Harry plans to go to Godric's Hollow and visit his parent's graves. Will Harry then be revealed to be a descendant of Gryffindor? I have to think yes. What could be a more appropriate final battle: Slytherin vs. Gryffindor, for everything. And of course, Ron and Hermione refusing to leave his side. I have to think that Ginny and Neville will also play part in his search for the Horcruxes.

I think Harry made an important realization during Dumbledore's funeral: "And Harry saw very clearly as he sat there under the hot sun how people who cared aboout him had stood in front of him one by one, his mother, his father, his godfather, and finally Dumbledore, all determined to protect him; but now that was over." He realizes that his final safety net was gone and that Voldemort's destruction became his task. But at the same time, it may be a foreshadowing of events to come in the next book as well.

I had a mental image of the Dead Swamp from Lord of the Rings when Harry saw the bodies in the lake. Sent a massive shiver down my spine.

I enjoyed all the bits of humor that were scattered throughout the book. I especially enjoyed when the Gryffindor password was "Abstinence."

Overall, it was an excellent read and I'm going to need to go through it many more times, combing for details. JKR is definitely a master storyteller. There are so many ways this could go, and as I have been fooled more than once trying to guess, it's almost impossible to tell. But that's half the fun, I think. Anyway, 5/5.

[Mike Spartz]

First of all, I would like to address Fone Bone. In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned that it disappointed you that Jo made every single Slytherin character in the books evil. Now I know you later reconsidered your answer on Snape, however I'd like to show you two other Slytherin's who aren't exactly evil.

The first is a man I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet in this discussion, I am speaking of course of Horace Slughorn. Slughorn is, in my opinion, a most interesting character. When I first met him, I never would have believed that he was a Slytherin. He just didn't fit the mold of past Slytherins that we've met who are suppose to be mean, ruthless, and spiteful. Slughorn was, strangely enough, kind to Harry and Dumbledore and the only thing that I didn't like about him was his nervous tone of voice. Later on the Hogwarts Express, I got a much better picture of Slughorn and his Slytherin side. He was neither brash, nor crude, but cunning! His "Slug Club" was an outlet for his ambtions, he wanted to surround himself with powerful wizards because by doing so, he could guarantee himself power and status. Slughorn is not unlike a regluar Slytherin. He values all the same things including power, wealth, and respect but instead of sneering he ues charm to win him favors. This attiude toward life does not make Slughorn evil, but rather vain and arrogant.

The second Slytherin that I want to mention is Draco Malfoy. Malfoy has always been a snot-nosed brat as we all know. This book however, he's branched out and we finally learn something new about him, something abmirable. Draco is loyal to the ones he loves. He knows to put his family first and this quality puts him above his father in all respects. Lucius is a scum bag who serves no one but himself. Lucius regarded his wife and son as property that he could do whatever he wanted with. Draco on the other hand only became a Death Eater because he foolishly thought that he could use his new position to gain favor with Voldemort - a favor that he would use to protect his mother and father. Draco is by no means an angel, but he's not pure evil either. Dumbledore knew enough about his personality to deduce that he was not a killer and now we know enough to consider him a Death Eater not by choice but by loyalty.

Now onto another topic. The next person that I want to discuss is Harry. Is it just me, or did Harry really grow up in this book? He's no longer that skinny little kid we met on the Hogwarts Express all those years ago. The Harry in HBP is confident, in control of his emotions, and even a little cheeky. Did anyone else notice that none of Harry's closest allies played a big part in this book? In the past, Ron and Hermione have always helped Harry out of the most dangerous corners of his life. HBP shows us that although he still relies heavily on his friends for support, Harry has really emeraged as a strong leader. Look at the way he talks to Rufus when the new Minister tries to beckon him into the Ministrys hands. The new Harry stands his ground and talks back to Minister, demanding that he be shown some respect. I can't imagine the Harry of old doing that. Additionally, Harry seemed to be wandering off alone a lot more this book, and it was he who figured out that Malfoy was up to no good - not Ron or Hermione. I'm not saying that Harry is growing apart from his friends, because the three of them are stronger than ever, but he is showing tremendous maturity particularly at the end when he admits that he knows what he must do and that the prophcey know no longer scares him.

In the end, I don't believe Harry will ever be as powerful as Voldemort in terms of magical ability. I think this book made it clear that Harry was only famous because Voldemort marked him as his equal - but marking him doesn't mean that Harry really was his equal - only that Voldemort thought he was. Harry's one power over Tom Riddle is his ablity to not be alone. Harry has the love and support of a group of dedicated friends - Tom Riddle doesn't and therefore will always be alone. In the end, it will be Harry's friends and his ability to love that will protect him from death and seal the fate of Voldemort. Ability will only take you so far, true success comes when you work as a team - Voldemort never understood this and that's why he will fall.

[RayChuang]

Spontaneous Mike,

That was without doubt the most brilliant analysis of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince I've read so far. :cool:

I especially agree with your views on Harry Potter's vastly improved maturity in this book and the fact that 1) he totally stood his ground in regards to the new Minister of Magic, 2) he was one of the few who saw that Fleur Delacour was a good person despite the protests of Molly Weasley, her daughter Ginny and Hermione Granger and 3) he was totally willing at the end of the book to finally confront Voldemort directly.

But yet despite the fact Potter wants a one-on-one confrontation with the Dark Lord he knows that Ron and Hermione will be at his side when the confrontation finally happens, finally closing the circle of his closest (and first) friends in the wizarding world that he met on the Hogwarts Express some six years ago. :)

[Fone Bone]

First of all, I would like to address Fone Bone. In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned that it disappointed you that Jo made every single Slytherin character in the books evil. Now I know you later reconsidered your answer on Snape, however I'd like to show you two other Slytherin's who aren't exactly evil.

The first is a man I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet in this discussion, I am speaking of course of Horace Slughorn. Slughorn is, in my opinion, a most interesting character. When I first met him, I never would have believed that he was a Slytherin. He just didn't fit the mold of past Slytherins that we've met who are suppose to be mean, ruthless, and spiteful. Slughorn was, strangely enough, kind to Harry and Dumbledore and the only thing that I didn't like about him was his nervous tone of voice. Later on the Hogwarts Express, I got a much better picture of Slughorn and his Slytherin side. He was neither brash, nor crude, but cunning! His "Slug Club" was an outlet for his ambtions, he wanted to surround himself with powerful wizards because by doing so, he could guarantee himself power and status. Slughorn is not unlike a regluar Slytherin. He values all the same things including power, wealth, and respect but instead of sneering he ues charm to win him favors. This attiude toward life does not make Slughorn evil, but rather vain and arrogant. I didn't mention him because I never got a real picture of where his allegiance's lie. I was so put off by what happened with Snape that I fully expected Rowling to make him evil in the next book. Fortunately with the comments in this thread I see that the universe is just as complicated as ever.


The second Slytherin that I want to mention is Draco Malfoy. Malfoy has always been a snot-nosed brat as we all know. This book however, he's branched out and we finally learn something new about him, something abmirable. Draco is loyal to the ones he loves. He knows to put his family first and this quality puts him above his father in all respects. Lucius is a scum bag who serves no one but himself. Lucius regarded his wife and son as property that he could do whatever he wanted with. Draco on the other hand only became a Death Eater because he foolishly thought that he could use his new position to gain favor with Voldemort - a favor that he would use to protect his mother and father. Draco is by no means an angel, but he's not pure evil either. Dumbledore knew enough about his personality to deduce that he was not a killer and now we know enough to consider him a Death Eater not by choice but by loyalty. This was definately true and something I had waited five books to see.


Now onto another topic. The next person that I want to discuss is Harry. Is it just me, or did Harry really grow up in this book? He's no longer that skinny little kid we met on the Hogwarts Express all those years ago. The Harry in HBP is confident, in control of his emotions, and even a little cheeky. Did anyone else notice that none of Harry's closest allies played a big part in this book? In the past, Ron and Hermione have always helped Harry out of the most dangerous corners of his life. HBP shows us that although he still relies heavily on his friends for support, Harry has really emeraged as a strong leader. Look at the way he talks to Rufus when the new Minister tries to beckon him into the Ministrys hands. The new Harry stands his ground and talks back to Minister, demanding that he be shown some respect. I can't imagine the Harry of old doing that. Additionally, Harry seemed to be wandering off alone a lot more this book, and it was he who figured out that Malfoy was up to no good - not Ron or Hermione. I'm not saying that Harry is growing apart from his friends, because the three of them are stronger than ever, but he is showing tremendous maturity particularly at the end when he admits that he knows what he must do and that the prophcey know no longer scares him.

In the end, I don't believe Harry will ever be as powerful as Voldemort in terms of magical ability. I think this book made it clear that Harry was only famous because Voldemort marked him as his equal - but marking him doesn't mean that Harry really was his equal - only that Voldemort thought he was. Harry's one power over Tom Riddle is his ablity to not be alone. Harry has the love and support of a group of dedicated friends - Tom Riddle doesn't and therefore will always be alone. In the end, it will be Harry's friends and his ability to love that will protect him from death and seal the fate of Voldemort. Ability will only take you so far, true success comes when you work as a team - Voldemort never understood this and that's why he will fall.I definately loved Harry again in this book. Way more mature than OotP and just plain cool to boot. I'm glad he got all of the stuff out of his system in OotP.

I also want to address something purplehairedwonder said about despite what the ending suggested about Harry, Ron and Hermione going it alone in the final book that Ginny and Neville would play huge parts in finding the horcruxes as well. I agree but would like to add a name to that list: Luna. The fact that she along with Neville was the ONLY member of the D.A. to help out suggests to me that Rowling has plans for her in the last book. As a matter of fact I wouldn't be surprised if this suggested that she and Neville will get together by the end.

[Lachesis]

Both likely knew it was best if Harry thought Snape was evil cause Harry is total crap at Occulumency (probably why Dumbledore made sure he was frozen to witness the events.) If they told him the truth, it was much too easy for that truth to be discovered (especially since Voldemort could look into his mind even easier because of the scar,) and then Snape's sacrifices, and in turn Dumbledore's death, would be for nothing. Snape is, in a sense, a better character than ever, and he's right when he says he's not a coward. The cowardly thing would have been to die for his noble cause - break the vow and die for Dumbledore. Living for the noble cause, to help save the wizarding world, no, the entire world, from a freakish madman bent on remaking civilization in his image, even though you may become a pariah, may end rotting in some god-awful prison for the rest of your life, may end up dead at the hands of the very people you were trying to protect, is brave because it's a lot harder than just playing the martyr.

Exactly. And on that note. . .

It suddenly occurs to me that it could very well be Harry's inability to learn Occulumency (sp?) that forced Snape and Dumbledore into this situation in the first place. As long as Harry thinks of Snape as his worst enemy, and the ultimate traitor to Dumbledore, Voldemort has no reason to suspect. I wouldn't put it past Dumbledore to have purposely emphasized his trust in Snape to make the betrayal really hurt. Manipulative, yes, but neccessary.

Also, there's no reason why Harry can't be Horcrux Seven. He doesn't need to be destroyed, just the part of Voldemort that was left in him. My guess is if that's the case, he loses the lightning scar.


Also, I'd really love it if R.A.B. turned out to be somebody totally out of left field, like. . . oh, Rita Skeeter's maiden name. Hee hee.

[Hordesman]

In the end, it will be Harry's friends and his ability to love that will protect him from death and seal the fate of Voldemort. Ability will only take you so far, true success comes when you work as a team - Voldemort never understood this and that's why he will fall.

Voldemort will never get the performance and loyalty he wants from fear. He can't truly trust any of his underlings, because of the climate he's created around himself. He's his own worst enemy.

[Drachentöter]

Okay, I finished it early this morning at about 2am.

Hah, well, I guess I look like an idiot always proclaiming that the Half-Blood Prince had to be Voldemort, but to be fair, I purposefully stayed way the hell away from next-book rumors so as to not spoil anything. So I had no idea Rowling had told readers that the HBP would not be Voldemort. In my opinion, she should have made a reference to the possibility of it being Voldemort and then disproved it through some of Hermione's magical explain-everything knowledge (case in point: Eileen Prince, or whatever her name was). It seems to me as if she didn't bother to include that possibility precisely because she had told readers it wouldn't be, but that made everyone act extremely out of character.

I completely agree with Steel and the others who have given theories on Snape's true nature. After pages and pages of investment in the Snape character, it would be ridiculous and wasteful to turn him into Voldemort's most loyal servant. I believe this is simply a twist that, for once, extends beyond one of the books and in fact, reaches all the way back to the first one. Snape had to make the Unbreakable Vow to keep his cover, he had to play along with Malfoy and Harry so that Voldemort wouldn't know his true allegiances, and he had to answer Dumbledore's PLEA to kill him before Malfoy or one of the Death Eaters could in order to a) fulfill his Unbreakable Vow and b) prevent Draco from committing murder.

Am I entirely happy with it? I'm not sure. I'll have to reread it sometime and carefully look over the key passages. In order for the circumstances of Dumbledore's death to become possible, many bizarre and senseless things had to occur. The fact that Dumbledore knew Malfoy would betray him. I'm fine with Dumbledore allowing Draco to get as far as disarming him, but introducing DEATH EATERS into the school? Potentially KILLING and injuring students? That was a sacrficie I cannot believe Dumbledore would willingly make. I guess we can chalk this up to "Dumbledore does make mistakes," but...bah, this was more than a mistake, this was fatal oversight, not for him, but for his students who he puts above himself.

But this is Rowling's world, so Rowling's logic applies.

Also, the one piece of evidence that makes me doubt Snape's loyalty to the Order is his confrontation with Harry at the end. True, he saved Harry from being tortured by the Death Eater, but his attitude toward Harry...once again, you can attribute it to the fact that Snape had to keep a very good cover, but I'm sure some of his true feelings shone through. He still hates James Potter and he's disgusted by the fact that Harry found his old potions book. As long as Snape is actually on the side of good, then I appreciate this complication in the character.

As for the romance, I was also preturbed at Harry's brush-off of Ginny. It's a cliche excuse, "It's too dangerous for the hero to have a love interest." But I guess if Harry isn't returning to Hogwarts, then there's little Rowling can do with the relationship anyway. I sincerely hope both Harry and Ginny stay alive and reunite once Voldemort's dead.

Assuming Harry's alive...and if Harry is a Horcrux, that possibility becomes slight. It kind of makes sense, because Voldemort made the necessary human sacrifice (Harry's parents), but then...a Horcrux is such advanced magic, that I'm not convinced that it can be performed unintentionally. But I have no idea what Voldemort would have to gain from making his prophecized nemesis a Horcrux. But....that would fulfill the requirement for the last Horcrux to be of Gryffindor's line.

Overall, this book was not the best in the series for me. It was extremely well-plotted and had the usual Rowling flair that I admire very much, but it seemed to be almost a Cliff Notes on Voldemort's past, which I attribute to Rowling's obligation to keep the book short. I would've appreciated more detail and orginallity in the earlier chapters to explain how Tom Riddle became Voldemort.

But the payoff for the sacrifice was excellent because this was the best Harry Potter ending ever. It was in two parts (the Horcrux lake and the Hogwarts showdown, btw the Inferi were severely underused but extremely creepy) and it wasn't as rushed as Order of the Phoenix or Goblet of Fire was. This was definitely the best ending since Prisoner of Azkaban, and better since it was full of such emotion and shocking events. As long as the next book is that satisfying throughout, I will never hesitate to claim this as my favorite book series of all time.

[Mike Spartz]

Voldemort will never get the performance and loyalty he wants from fear. He can't truly trust any of his underlings, because of the climate he's created around himself. He's his own worst enemy.Exactly and this is his greatest weakness. He fears the natural. It's natural to die, it's natural to form friendships because friends are needed and it's natural to feel love for another being. Voldemort lacks all the above qualities. He has deluded himself into thinking that he's some kind of god when his own life force is bound so hopelessly to seven Horcruxes (two of which are already destroyed). In many respects, Rowling has made Voldemort a slave in the series, a slave to death. Ironically, by choosing to cheat death, he commited suicide seven times over. Nice way to die eh? ;)


I also want to address something purplehairedwonder said about despite what the ending suggested about Harry, Ron and Hermione going it alone in the final book that Ginny and Neville would play huge parts in finding the horcruxes as well. I agree but would like to add a name to that list: Luna.I agree with you that it was very telling that Rowling made Neville and Luna the only two former DA members who fought at the end of book six. This suggests to me that both of them, along with Ginny will play more significant roles in the next book. However, having said that, I must say that I don't see the trio losing much spotlight in the next book. This is still Harry's story after all and since it's told from his point of view, I expect to see a lot more of Ron and Hermione than Ginny, Neville, Luna. It also depends if Hogwarts will open again next year. If it does, I don't think we'll see much of Ginny, Neville, or Luna until we're well into the book.


But the payoff for the sacrifice was excellent because this was the best Harry Potter ending ever. It was in two parts (the Horcrux lake and the Hogwarts showdown, btw the Inferi were severely underused but extremely creepy) and it wasn't as rushed as Order of the Phoenix or Goblet of Fire was. This was definitely the best ending since Prisoner of Azkaban, and better since it was full of such emotion and shocking events. As long as the next book is that satisfying throughout, I will never hesitate to claim this as my favorite book series of all time. I agree. The ending pretty much summed up the trio's relationship in three words (all of which begin with the letter "L"): Love, Loyalty, Longevity. If Harry were to really go it alone against Voldemort, he would've been in great danger of losing his way - especially since he's mind is so open to others. On the contray, having his two best friends at his side provides for him the ample support that he needs to face the Dark Lord

[Fone Bone]

I agree with you that it was very telling that Rowling made Neville and Luna the only two former DA members who fought at the end of book six. This suggests to me that both of them, along with Ginny will play more significant roles in the next book. However, having said that, I must say that I don't see the trio losing much spotlight in the next book. This is still Harry's story after all and since it's told from his point of view, I expect to see a lot more of Ron and Hermione than Ginny, Neville, Luna. It also depends if Hogwarts will open again next year. If it does, I don't think we'll see much of Ginny, Neville, or Luna until we're well into the book.

Thing is though I DON'T think Hogwarts will be open next year. It was already in a tenuous position in this book and with Dumbledore gone I think having it close would be significant. Then again it would be a major sacrifice on Harry's part to NOT go to the place he most calls home next year. Remember how I said I can never predict where Rowling will go with her books?;)

On last thing: What is all this talk about a deluxe edition of the book having 40 more pages? Did I miss out on any of the story or are the forty pages something else? Why was Rowling forced to make the book shorter as your posts suggest? Doesn't she have enough clout to write the books any way she damn well pleases?

[Mike Spartz]

:zim:

On last thing: What is all this talk about a deluxe edition of the book having 40 more pages? Did I miss out on any of the story or are the forty pages something else? Why was Rowling forced to make the book shorter as your posts suggest? Doesn't she have enough clout to write the books any way she damn well pleases?My dear Fone, do you not realize that you are describing forty pages of additional artwork? ;)


Harry being a horcrux wouldn't make too much sense unless Rowling wants Voldemort to win and kill all of the characters which is a questionable decision in a children's book. One has to destroy the other and Harry can't actually kill Voldemort if a piece of him resides inside him.Yes, Harry and Voldemort have to fight each other - but do not be fooled into believing that it's because of the prophecy. Take these two passages from the book for instance,



'But, sir,' said Harry, making valiant efforts not to sound argumentative, 'it all comes to the same thing, doesn't it? I've got to try and kill him, or -'

'Got to?' said Dumbledore. 'Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried!' - HBP (pg 478, UK)



and later on...



'....in other words, you are free to choose your way, quite free to turn your back on the prophecy! But Voldemort continues to set store by the prophecy. He will continue to hunt you...which makes it certain, really, that -'

'That one of us is going to end up killing the other,' said Harry. 'Yes.' - HBP (pg 479, UK)



So it never mattered what the prophecy said because it had no bearing on the bond between Harry and Voldemort. The prophecy was meant to be just that - a silly prediction of the future- something to be discarded as rubbish. The only reason its words hold any water at all is because Voldemort believes in it. Out of paranoia that a man will one day challenge his power, Riddle has tricked himself into thinking that the "man" is Harry Potter. In reality, Harry was just a normal wizard - who only got extraordinary powers because they were given to him by Voldemort. The identity of the person in the prophecy didn't matter because it could've been anyone -and it just so happened that Voldemort chose Harry Potter.

Therefore, the real reason Harry must face Voldemort and destory him is not because of a prophecy, but rather that Voldemort has given him no alternative. He (Harry) has been marked since the age of one by the greatest dark wizard of all time as his primary threat. He's been given the proper tools and the proper knowledge to finish him off and that's what he's got to do because there isn't another soul on the planet who can do it.

Moreover, I sincerely believe that Harry is the last Horcruxe. It only makes sense after Voldemort had commited a double murder, that the killing curse bestowed upon young Harry would grant him not only some of Voldemort's special talents, but also a piece of his soul. That's why Harry's mind is so intertwined with Voldemorts, and that's why his scar hurts everytime he senses Voldemort - because his scar is a Horcruxe! And should this theory prove accurate, prehaps it means that Harry will die after all.

[Fone Bone]

:zim: My dear Fone, do you not realize that you are describing forty pages of additional artwork? ;) Phew! You still didn't answer why Rowling was forced to make the book shorter than the others. What's up with that?


Yes, Harry and Voldemort have to fight each other - but do not be fooled into believing that it's because of the prophecy. Take these two passages from the book for instance,



'But, sir,' said Harry, making valiant efforts not to sound argumentative, 'it all comes to the same thing, doesn't it? I've got to try and kill him, or -'

'Got to?' said Dumbledore. 'Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried!' - HBP (pg 478, UK)



and later on...



'....in other words, you are free to choose your way, quite free to turn your back on the prophecy! But Voldemort continues to set store by the prophecy. He will continue to hunt you...which makes it certain, really, that -'

'That one of us is going to end up killing the other,' said Harry. 'Yes.' - HBP (pg 479, UK)



So it never mattered what the prophecy said because it had no bearing on the bond between Harry and Voldemort. The prophecy was meant to be just that - a silly prediction of the future- something to be discarded as rubbish. The only reason its words hold any water at all is because Voldemort believes in it. Out of paranoia that a man will one day challenge his power, Riddle has tricked himself into thinking that the "man" is Harry Potter. In reality, Harry was just a normal wizard - who only got extraordinary powers because they were given to him by Voldemort. The identity of the person in the prophecy didn't matter because it could've been anyone -and it just so happened that Voldemort chose Harry Potter.

Therefore, the real reason Harry must face Voldemort and destory him is not because of a prophecy, but rather that Voldemort has given him no alternative. He (Harry) has been marked since the age of one by the greatest dark wizard of all time as his primary threat. He's been given the proper tools and the proper knowledge to finish him off and that's what he's got to do because there isn't another soul on the planet who can do it.

Moreover, I sincerely believe that Harry is the last Horcruxe. It only makes sense after Voldemort had commited a double murder, that the killing curse bestowed upon young Harry would grant him not only some of Voldemort's special talents, but also a piece of his soul. That's why Harry's mind is so intertwined with Voldemorts, and that's why his scar hurts everytime he senses Voldemort - because his scar is a Horcruxe! And should this theory prove accurate, prehaps it means that Harry will die after all.As dark as the books have gotten, I don't believe for a SECOND that Rowling will kill off Harry. Too much effort was put into the fact that he was the only one who could stop Voldemort (regardless of the prophecy). If he dies Voldemort will win and kill all of the other characters and regardless of what we may think of it the series originally started as a children's book. If you are to believe Rowling has planned for the series the entire time the ending, you have to wonder why she made the first two books kid friendly if she was going to kill off Harry. I really don't think Harry is a Horcrux. I like all of the theories put forth in this thread but I don't think I'd be able to cope with Harry dying.

[Mike Spartz]

Phew! You still didn't answer why Rowling was forced to make the book shorter than the others.Elementary my dear fellow, had the regular books included illustrations - the print company would've been forced to print my paper for the book and we all know that more paper equals higher production cost.

[Fone Bone]

Elementary my dear fellow, had the regular books included illustrations - the print company would've been forced to print my paper for the book and we all know that more paper equals higher production cost.That's odd. I would have thought they would have just jacked up the price. I didn't need forty pages of illustartions. My good ol' imagination did just fine. I would have definately paid an extra few bucks for Rowling to make certain parts of the story I didn't understand clearer.

[the Amanda]

Wow! Reading all of you guys' posts and other analysis, I take back some of the negative things I said about this book -- it's better written than I realized!

I am now convinced that Snape is on the side of good... and if that is true, then he is, hands down, one of the best characters in these books. I now no longer wonder why the title is "Half Blood Prince" even though the potions book didn't play that major a role -- It's Snape himself who plays such a huge role. Which is why it still really kills me that we didn't get to see much of his DADA classes at all. Seriously, we fans have been waiting for DADA with Snape ever since the first book, throw us a collective bone!

Harry as a Horcrux is so beautiful a theory, I wish I would've thought of it myself! I don't know if JK would do that, though... but it does lend itself to the "Voldemort marked him as his equal" statement (Harry is Voldemort's equal because he contains part of Voldemort's soul).

Tonks and Lupin were terribly tacked on, which really made me sad. They're two of my favorite adult characters in the series, would it have killed JK to give them a larger role, or further characterization, before throwing that relationship out there? I think I'm just hurt because I was really hoping that both of them would play a major role....

Luna is going to have a larger role in the next book, I think. We'll see that there's more to her than a throwaway funny character. Her commentary rules, though. I agree with Ron, I hope she always does Quidditch commentary from now on! :anime:

[Hordesman]

The last chapter of book 7 was written, showing where everyone ends up and ending with the word "Scar". Now, it's possible JKR will edit it as she writes book 7. But if it ends with that particular word... I'm not sure it automatically means Harry's scar = piece of Voldemort's soul... Hey, just a thought... If we're talking about 7 horcruxes, maybe each one passes Harry's way in each book- but not always in a major role like the Riddle diary happened to.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Sure, Occulumency comes into play, but the truth is that Dumbledore was the most powerful wizard outside of Voldemort, where as Snape is nothing in comparison, so Snape's not likely to bamboozle Dumbledore.
That assumes that power=infallibility. Dumbledore is anything BUT infallible. He didn't come close to redeeming his incompetence from OotP; indeed, his incompetence is compounded by being there and yet not for Harry in this one.

The theory seems to go

1. Dumbledore trusts Snape.
2. Dumbledore and Snape argue where DD tells Snape to kill him.
3. Snape spies for Dumbledore and learns important things.
4. Snape saves Harry other times, so he must be good.


However

1. Dumbledore trusted Snape to teach Harry Occulmency...oops. Dumbledore bumbled a lot in OotP. Doesn't seem to do better here.
2. Complete speculation
3. Speculation and Snape's own story casts doubt on that.
4. Nothing any other teacher wouldn't have done.

I don't get why you all talk like Snape being a bad guy is a BAD thing. That's the only plotline in the book that I love. He's still an interesting character, just now he's an interesting foe.

And a hero is only as interesting as the villain.

Sheesh.

[the Amanda]

There's a number of reasons why Snape being a bad guy is a bad thing:

1. Snape is the ONLY Slytherin-type who has been good, up until now. Unless Malfoy turns out to be a good guy (possible), it kind of undermines the "Houses should band together, not everyone in Slytherin is evil" message.
2. It's boring and obvious to make the mean, unfair guy be evil. The cool thing about Snape was that he was a total ass, but still did the right thing when necessary.
3. Dumbledore has made mistakes, but declaring his absolute trust in Snape without a reason better than "Snape said he was sorry for being responsible for the Potters' deaths" is completely out of character for him, no matter how good an Occlumens Snape is. Seriously, Dumbledore must have had a better reason.
4. "Please... Snape..." Dumbledore would never beg for his own life, or beg to be "proven right" about something he was absolutely sure of until this point. It makes a lot more sense if he is asking Snape to kill him as per the previous arrangement -- Snape hesitated, Dumbledore wants to make sure Draco doesn't do it.

[Wounded_Dragon]

There's a number of reasons why Snape being a bad guy is a bad thing:

1. Snape is the ONLY Slytherin-type who has been good, up until now. Unless Malfoy turns out to be a good guy (possible), it kind of undermines the "Houses should band together, not everyone in Slytherin is evil" message.
Him being good is a matter of opinion. And intent is very important. He never, NEVER, did good because that's what was right; rather, he did it because of the benefits.



2. It's boring and obvious to make the mean, unfair guy be evil. The cool thing about Snape was that he was a total ass, but still did the right thing when necessary.
No, he did the right thing when it was conveinent. Remember, he was under Dumbledore's protection. And for his ineptitude, Dumbledore is nicer than Voldemort. What's boring and unfair about making the sadistic scum as Snape be a bad guy? You say boring, I say logical.



3. Dumbledore has made mistakes, but declaring his absolute trust in Snape without a reason better than "Snape said he was sorry for being responsible for the Potters' deaths" is completely out of character for him, no matter how good an Occlumens Snape is. Seriously, Dumbledore must have had a better reason.
You have faith in Dumbledore. After OotP, I was waiting for evidence that I should have faith in Dumbledore again. Instead, I got Dumbledore showing home movies and getting killed.




4. "Please... Snape..." Dumbledore would never beg for his own life, or beg to be "proven right" about something he was absolutely sure of until this point. It makes a lot more sense if he is asking Snape to kill him as per the previous arrangement -- Snape hesitated, Dumbledore wants to make sure Draco doesn't do it.*rolls eyes* Again, that's a matter of opinion, and it has to involve Dumbledore being right to work. We're never given the reason, so I say there isn't some grand reason. Just his usual blind faith.

[Lord Dalek]

I bet you in book 7:

Malfoy kills Snape.

Just some feeling I got from reading the end of the book. Not as good as ...Azkaban but better than Order of the Phoenix.

[Wounded_Dragon]

I bet you in book 7:

Malfoy kills Snape.

Just some feeling I got from reading the end of the book. Not as good as ...Azkaban but better than Order of the Phoenix.
I really wish I could wipe Order of the Phoenix from my mind. Not because I don't like it, but because it goes one way with everything, and HBP goes the other way. Hell, OotP is rather pointless as nothing that happened in that book really carried over except Harry's hate for the ministry.

[Spastic Minnow]

Snape is not good or evil. A humongous theme of this series is about there being shades of grey. Umbridge was one of the most horrible characters in the books, willing to torture and maybe even kill students, but she was not a Dark wizard, hated the dark arts and thought what she was doing was for the best. Lupin is a kind dark creature, James and Sirius had their cruel sides and in this book we are made to sympathise with Narcissa, Draco and even the very young Voldemort!

There is no doubt that Snape is not kind, he is bigoted, petty and vindictive. He understands the power in the Dark Arts. He is the defininitive Slytherin who does anything that is necessary to obtain his goals. But I believe he is genuinely remorseful of the evil things that he has done and worries that he truthfully is a coward. Notice how emphatically he denies being a coward so soon after killing Dumbledore? If Draco couldn't do it (which was very likely) and Snape wouldn't do it than he would have died himself because of the vow. Compare his actions with those of Sirius, James and Lily, all of whom died in defense of Harry. Despite Dumbledore's understanding of the situation, despite knowing he would be saving the lives of Draco and his family and that he'd be putting himself in a valuable position close to Voldemort, he still probably considers his killing Dumbledore a cowardly action to save his own neck and hates himself for it.

Snape is not good, it's questionable whether or not he is noble in the least, but I think he ultimately wants to destroy Voldemort as much as anyone else and will do anything that is necessary to do so.


R.A.B? The only R.B. I could think of was Regelus Black, Sirius's dead younger brother, but I think it's more likely to be another nickname and could be anybody.


I think Hogwarts will be open in the next book and Harry will be practically forced to return by his elders and a basic lack of anywhere else to be. It may open late with a shorter year, it may be a much different place with less students and crawling with Ministry people and Aurors but it'll be open and though Harry wouldn't have much use for the daily ins and outs of the school year it's still the best place to be if he wants to fight Voldemort. Sure, he has 12 Grimauld place but he hates it, it's more of a hiding place than a helpful base of operations and it may well be discovered by the next book since it's secret-keeper just died.

[the Amanda]

Spastic Minnow -- That is an excellent summation of my views on Snape.

Wounded Dragon -- Thank you for making, over and over again, the point that "That is nothing but opinion," complete with rolling eyes. You surely have swayed my views; now I realize that the things I say about the book/characters are merely opinion and therefore have no evidence or possible kernel of truth. You're obviously determined to think Snape is evil no matter what. I think you will end up disappointed, but that, again, is nothing but opinion.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Spastic Minnow -- That is an excellent summation of my views on Snape.

Wounded Dragon -- Thank you for making, over and over again, the point that "That is nothing but opinion," complete with rolling eyes. You surely have swayed my views; now I realize that the things I say about the book/characters are merely opinion and therefore have no evidence or possible kernel of truth. You're obviously determined to think Snape is evil no matter what. I think you will end up disappointed, but that, again, is nothing but opinion.

Snape has never done anything that wasn't for himself, but here we get around 4 pages of people arguing that he's good and selfless, and coming up with theories that largely consist of theories based on opinion. You bet I'm going to point it out.

[the Amanda]

Snape has never done anything that wasn't for himself, but here we get around 4 pages of people arguing that he's good and selfless, and coming up with theories that largely consist of theories based on opinion. You bet I'm going to point it out.

The fact that Snape did those things for himself is also opinion. As of now, we have not actually learned what goes on in Snape's head, and there is evidence in both directions.

There's a difference between being "good and selfless" and doing the right thing when it really matters. Snape is not Harry; he does unheroic things, and his motivations are probably not pure. However, that doesn't prove he wants Voldemort to take over the world and Harry to die.

[Wounded_Dragon]

The fact that Snape did those things for himself is also opinion. As of now, we have not actually learned what goes on in Snape's head, and there is evidence in both directions.

There's a difference between being "good and selfless" and doing the right thing when it really matters. Snape is not Harry; he does unheroic things, and his motivations are probably not pure. However, that doesn't prove he wants Voldemort to take over the world and Harry to die.
If there's evidence for both directions, why are there the four pages or so people utterly convinced Snape is good? Especially when it's the direct evidence that shows Snape is evil and the inferential evidence that shows Snape is good.

Everything shown about Snape character implies he'd go where the power is. And he just eliminated the other guy.

[Drachentöter]

There is nothing wrong with discussing one's opinion on a thread dedicated to readers' opinions on the book. Literature is an art, not a science and no one's word is law. Nobody here knows more about the books than anyone else, unless someone is closely related to J.K. Rowling herself. No need to get annoyed at people for sharing their hopes and ideas.

[the Amanda]

If there's evidence for both directions, why are there the four pages or so people utterly convinced Snape is good? Especially when it's the direct evidence that shows Snape is evil and the inferential evidence that shows Snape is good.



The fact that the direct evidence shows Snape is evil is exactly why people are convinced of the opposite. JK loves to surprise, and it seems very strange for her to tip her hand so early, and in such an obvious fashion, with regards to Snape's allegience, which has always been a huge question of the series. Why take everything in the HP universe at face value? You'd miss out on a lot of the subtle character points JK puts in the books.

I am not utterly convinced Snape is good. When I first finished the book, I was absolutely sure he was evil now. However, when I read other people's arguments, I saw how much evidence there was for him to still be on Dumbledore's side. There IS evidence that Snape might still be good, and it's best not to dismiss it out of hand.

[Wounded_Dragon]

There was strong evidence that Hermione was actually a caring principled individual and Ron would stop being a jealous prat.

Boy, was I proven wrong.

Half-Blood Prince fails on several levels and the Snape plotline is the only one that I got any enjoyment out of. If she renders it pointless in HP7 by having him make some sacrifice for the good side, I will burn my copy. Literally.

[Steve Jester]

There was strong evidence that Hermione was actually a caring principled individual and Ron would stop being a jealous prat.

Boy, was I proven wrong.

Half-Blood Prince fails on several levels and the Snape plotline is the only one that I got any enjoyment out of. If she renders it pointless in HP7 by having him make some sacrifice for the good side, I will burn my copy. Literally.
Seriously, if you believed any of those things about Ron and Hermione, I don't think you were reading carefully. Those traits make them, not only human -- but teenagers. Jo kept them just the way she kept them in the other books. They were "in charecter."

As for the Snape plotline. If Jo sacrafices Snape for the greater good, it doesn't render it pointless because with Harry potter and JKR, EVERYTHING has a point. So HP7 won't be ruined if that happens.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Seriously, if you believed any of those things about Ron and Hermione, I don't think you were reading carefully. Those traits make them, not only human -- but teenagers. Jo kept them just the way she kept them in the other books. They were "in charecter."

As for the Snape plotline. If Jo sacrafices Snape for the greater good, it doesn't render it pointless because with Harry potter and JKR, EVERYTHING has a point. So HP7 won't be ruined if that happens.
I hate this "regular teenager" argument. Regular teens don't go through all the near-death experiences together like these do. It's like they save up their maturity for the final battle in this book, because they don't use an ounce of it during the rest of the story.

It won't ruin HP7. It'll ruin HPB. Much like HBP has ruined OotP.

[Fone Bone]

Here's the thing: if Rowling had truly wanted readers to know that Snape was a complete butthole, she could have been clearer. There were a lot of questions about the situation that didn't completely add up as many people have pointed out. Wounded Dragon, I'm not saying that you are wrong for believing Snape is evil and he may very well be. However my and other people's argument is that the book was written in such a way that it could go either way depending on Rowling's whim. We're not arguing so much that Snape is good--but that he COULD be.

I bet it was written this way specifically to drive the fans crazy and start these arguments all over again.:D

[Azrael24]

i tried not to read it so fsat so that i could enjoy it. but i couldnt help myself. :evil:

this was the best harry potter book. it was sooo sad. i hate snape and i think he is evil :mad:. the way he treats harry and what he did is just...:mad:.

i cant believe harry likes ginny! it seemed forced. he had never shown feelings for her. hermione and ron i dont like. i thought jk rowling would do the usual and surprise us with harry/hermione. but she went with the obvious. :shrug:

well, great book and great reading *****

[Steve Jester]

I hate this "regular teenager" argument. Regular teens don't go through all the near-death experiences together like these do. It's like they save up their maturity for the final battle in this book, because they don't use an ounce of it during the rest of the story.

It won't ruin HP7. It'll ruin HPB. Much like HBP has ruined OotP. Hmm.... Harry Ron and Hermione don't use an ounce of maturity you say? I think that Ron show maturity in his hospital room before that ill-fated Quidditch match regarding how it wouldn't be easy breaking up with Lavender. I think Hermione showed maturity during Prisoner of Azkaban with regards to the time turner during the final sequence. I think Harry showed great maturity during the whole Dumbledore drinking the insane potion sequence. Harry and Ginny show great maturity in their (hopefully temporay) calling off their relationship. But these are only sampleings of maturity that you may have over looked. HBP didn't ruin OotP, and HP7 won't ruin HBP. They strengthen each other.

EDIT: Odd question, but how many of us went and got the deluxe edition? I know I did! :D:p:evil::evil::evil:

[Wounded_Dragon]

Hmm.... Harry Ron and Hermione don't use an ounce of maturity you say? I think that Ron show maturity in his hospital room before that ill-fated Quidditch match regarding how it wouldn't be easy breaking up with Lavender. I think Harry showed great maturity during the whole Dumbledore drinking the insane potion sequence. Harry and Ginny show great maturity in their (hopefully temporay) calling off their relationship. But these are only sampleings of maturity that you may have over looked. HBP didn't ruin OotP, and HP7 won't ruin HBP. They strengthen each other.


*pointless non-HBP example removed*

Hermione has maturity in HBP does she? Since you're so fond of reading between the lines, here's some: Hermione, Quidditch Tryout, Confunded. Then of course stooping to attacking Ron in a jealous rage. Going out with another boy to make him jealous. Having a fit over Harry using a written in textbook. Having a fit over Harry tricking Ron into thinking he'd taken some Luck potion. Refusing to listen to Harry's Malfoy theories (okay, that one's shaky since he was on the verge of being obsessive, but he WAS right).

Ron's a little better. He still has the jealous act going on, with both Hermione and Harry.

HBP DID ruin OotP. All the important plotlines of OotP were discarded. Prophecy? Pointless. Order of the Phoenix? Pointless. Occulmency? Worse than pointless. Telling Harry the truth? HA! Dumbledore's Army? Gone. Loss of Sirius? Ignored for the most part, no real impact. Dumbledore's Fallible? Forgotten by everyone but Dumbledore and Harry, again. Ministry of Magic- background, barely.

You could jump from Goblet of Fire to Half-Blood Prince with ease. All you would need to know is that the Ministry ignored Voldemort, smearing Dumbledore and Harry, until he attacked the Ministry and Sirius died. All character development from OotP was discarded.

[Spastic Minnow]

I do feel there was one thing that was pretty out of character for Ron and Hermione though. And it drove me crazy. They really didn't step up to help Harry with his Draco theories. They spy on him together in Knockturn Alley but then they constantly discourage Harry about it and IIRC never help him at all in following Draco or take Harry seriously when he says Draco's missing from the Marauder's Map.

Talking about Draco, when was his hand of glory thing introduced? I can't remember it at all. Did he have it in forest during GoF of something?

[Steve Jester]

*pointless non-HBP example removed*

Hermione has maturity in HBP does she? Since you're so fond of reading between the lines, here's some: Hermione, Quidditch Tryout, Confunded. Then of course stooping to attacking Ron in a jealous rage. Going out with another boy to make him jealous. Having a fit over Harry using a written in textbook. Having a fit over Harry tricking Ron into thinking he'd taken some Luck potion. Refusing to listen to Harry's Malfoy theories (okay, that one's shaky since he was on the verge of being obsessive, but he WAS right).

Ron's a little better. He still has the jealous act going on, with both Hermione and Harry.

HBP DID ruin OotP. All the important plotlines of OotP were discarded. Prophecy? Pointless. Order of the Phoenix? Pointless. Occulmency? Worse than pointless. Telling Harry the truth? HA! Dumbledore's Army? Gone. Loss of Sirius? Ignored for the most part, no real impact. Dumbledore's Fallible? Forgotten by everyone but Dumbledore and Harry, again. Ministry of Magic- background, barely.

You could jump from Goblet of Fire to Half-Blood Prince with ease. All you would need to know is that the Ministry ignored Voldemort, smearing Dumbledore and Harry, until he attacked the Ministry and Sirius died. All character development from OotP was discarded.
Noticed you questioned my weakest example but not the other 3... :D

Anyway, I think I'll borrow a phrase from you, "It's your opinon." Anyway, let me go over your points and make my opinons known.

Ok, so your remarks about Hermione have some merit. However, this doesn't discredit her entirely. In fact, if my memory serves me right, she's been becoming more and more reckless since Azkaban. Her... lack of maturity is the effect.

And who's to say anyway if jelousy is a sign of containing absolutely no maturity. I've known respectable, mature adults throw the same type of jelous rage that Hermione threw.

As for the rest... I'm rather tired and I will be backing down from the debate tonight. I'll be back to debate tomorrow. You have my "Unbreakable Vow"

[purplehairedwonder]

The thing that bothers me about the Harry-being-the-final-Horcrux theory is that, as we saw in OotP, Voldemort could not possess him for long due to exruciating agony. Should he be able to possess the object that held part of his soul, even if he had the ability to love (or whatever it was that Harry had that kept Voldemort from his body)?


Talking about Draco, when was his hand of glory thing introduced? I can't remember it at all. Did he have it in forest during GoF of something?It's mentioned in CoS when Harry found himself in Knockturn Alley rather than Diagon Alley, but I don't remember hearing about it until it was mentioned again in HBP.


Prophecy? Pointless.I can't buy that. Dumbledore says that Harry has the ability to turn away from the Prophecy, but Voldemort will not. He (Voldemort) holds much stock in that incomplete prophecy, so in essence, that will be what leads to the final showdown. Had Voldemort never heard about it from Snape, things would be very different, indeed.


Dumbledore's Army? Gone.Except for the fact that Neville and Luna responded to the coins. I think that will have much significance in the future.


Loss of Sirius? Ignored for the most part, no real impact.That bothered me as well, considering how Harry had reacted after Cedric had died, and they had not been much more than acquaintances. I have to wonder if it will have more of an impact in the future as well. Afterall, things that seem to be overlooked have been known to come back with much significance.

[Captain Harlock]

All I really have to say is - "Wow, what a book." More specifically - "What an ending." The thought that there's only one book away from the conclusion of the series is very.. exciting? I don't know what I'll read after the Potter series (haha), but the ending has been a long time coming. I've tried not to speculate as to what happens in books that are not released. Such as:

Sirius and Dumbledore's deaths were a suprise to me, despite all the people happy to spoil it on the internet. So, I won't even begin to make speculation on the final novel. However, one point I will mark up is the constant reassurance in the trust of Snape. Dumbledore's confrontation with Malfoy showed that he did know what was going on inside the castle (perhaps Snape's doing in letting him in on it) even after downplaying Harry's theories.

Dumbledore's omniscience proved to be his downfall, but it may be the biggest hint of what may happen in the future. The biggest mystery to be solved is the identity of R.A.B. Ah, I can't wait another two years for the finale. I started the book series as a 7th grader in high school and will finish it as a Junior in college.

Now that's epic.

[Wounded_Dragon]

I can't buy that. Dumbledore says that Harry has the ability to turn away from the Prophecy, but Voldemort will not. He (Voldemort) holds much stock in that incomplete prophecy, so in essence, that will be what leads to the final showdown. Had Voldemort never heard about it from Snape, things would be very different, indeed.

I don't mean that the Prophecy has no imporantance. I mean it has no measureable impact on the characters. Harry doesn't obsess over it much except to bring it up once with Dumbledore, Hermione and Ron hear it but while their behavior changes, it has no visible link to hearing the prophecy. Dumbledore treats Harry like the child he was back in 1st year with regards to trust and information. The Order blindy trusts Dumbledore.

That is what REALLY bugs me. I can buy the Prophecy not being important, I screamed that at Dumbledore back in OotP, as it seems to be the reason why DD threw Harry in with the Durselys and never tried to correct their behavior. But what I can't stand is how it doesn't affect the characters much at all.


Except for the fact that Neville and Luna responded to the coins. I think that will have much significance in the future.

Perhaps. But there was no signficance in this book and it seemed like there should have been. They'd been through a life-or-death experience in the DoM, but no bond forms at all.



That bothered me as well, considering how Harry had reacted after Cedric had died, and they had not been much more than acquaintances. I have to wonder if it will have more of an impact in the future as well. Afterall, things that seem to be overlooked have been known to come back with much significance.
But those things were plot points. Characterization moves on, even when it doesn't make sense.

[Spastic Minnow]

Perhaps. But there was no signficance in this book and it seemed like there should have been. They'd been through a life-or-death experience in the DoM, but no bond forms at all.Oh, they've formed bonds, it's just that no pages are being devoted to the relationships that are forming in the minor characters. One subtle difference in Luna and Neville's relationship is shown when they're first shown in this book. Harry finds them together on the Hogwarts express, in OotP Neville didn't want to go near her at all and now they choose each others company, probably chatting away about Snorcaks and magical plants. There's also clear evidence that Ginny is closer to Luna, she does know how excited she was to be invited to Slughorn's party. It's just that the relationships and bonds of the minor characters happen off page.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Well, anybody that's read the thread clearly knows my opinion on Snape following Dumbledore's orders -- I don't think that he's an "evil" character. The recent MuggleNet/TLC interview with JKR kind of touches on this as well. Interestingly, she kind of implies that Snape is evil but won't categorically make a statement about it either way.


MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?

JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?

ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.

MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -

JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -

ES: Yes!

MA: Yes!

ES: Like certain shippers we know!

[All laugh]

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.

ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

[Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree.

ES: How can someone so -

JKR: Intelligent -

ES: be so blind with regard to certain things?

[Metroid_spy]

Well I just finally finished reading the book. Wow... very suprising. But can't wait for the finale. So far away...

[Drachentöter]

Just some further evidence for the fact that Dumbledore knew ahead of time that Snape would have to kill him, or at least that he would have to leave Hogwarts:

Dumbledore says that since Voldemort was denied the position of Defense of the Dark Arts teacher, not a single one has remained for longer than a year.

Quirrel died.
Lockhart had his memory erased.
Lupin was outed as a werewofl.
Moody...wasn't Moody.
Umbridge was attacked by centaurs.

And who knows what horrible fates happened to the teachers prior.

So, knowing that it was highly probable that whoever took the DADA post would most likely not return to Hogwarts, why would Dumbledore offer SEVERUS SNAPE the position, after all the years Snape has "contributed" to the school as a Potions teacher and possibly to the Order (assuming Dumbledore actually did believe in him)? Wouldn't that ensure Snape's failure to return the next year?

Two scenarios for me:

Dumbledore knew Snape would be forced to flee after completing the Unbreakable Vow and preventing Malfoy from committing murder, so he might as well give the position to someone he knew would not be able to return, sacrificing one teacher instead of two and giving Snape his final wish before being forced to return to Voldemort's side (whether as a double agent or whatever).

Or maybe he hoped Snape would suffer some fate before completing the Vow because of Voldemort's curse (this is more unlikely for me).

[Fone Bone]

Just some further evidence for the fact that Dumbledore knew ahead of time that Snape would have to kill him, or at least that he would have to leave Hogwarts:

Dumbledore says that since Voldemort was denied the position of Defense of the Dark Arts teacher, not a single one has remained for longer than a year.

Quirrel died.
Lockhart had his memory erased.
Lupin was outed as a werewofl.
Moody...wasn't Moody.
Umbridge was attacked by centaurs.

And who knows what horrible fates happened to the teachers prior.

So, knowing that it was highly probable that whoever took the DADA post would most likely not return to Hogwarts, why would Dumbledore offer SEVERUS SNAPE the position, after all the years Snape has "contributed" to the school as a Potions teacher and possibly to the Order (assuming Dumbledore actually did believe in him)? Wouldn't that ensure Snape's failure to return the next year?

Two scenarios for me:

Dumbledore knew Snape would be forced to flee after completing the Unbreakable Vow and preventing Malfoy from committing murder, so he might as well give the position to someone he knew would not be able to return, sacrificing one teacher instead of two and giving Snape his final wish before being forced to return to Voldemort's side (whether as a double agent or whatever).

Or maybe he hoped Snape would suffer some fate before completing the Vow because of Voldemort's curse (this is more unlikely for me).Yeah, it was telling Dumbledore gave Snape the Darks Arts job when he knew it was jinxed. I had the same thought.

Damn you J.K. Rowling and your non-commital and misleading teasing! It's gonna be a LOOOOOOOONG two years.

[AF$]

Just some further evidence for the fact that Dumbledore knew ahead of time that Snape would have to kill him, or at least that he would have to leave Hogwarts:
Also, Harry walks in on Snape and Dumbledore arguing about Snape not wanting to follow orders. Dumbledore knew about the vow and what would happen, and knew he needed to get his house in order before the completion of the vow. If Snape really wanted to kill Dumbledore for evil purposes, why would he tell Dumbledore the details of the vow and make such a scene?

Snape healing Dumbledore after he destroys the Marvolo heirloom ring/horcrux doesn't really help the evil side either.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Also, Harry walks in on Snape and Dumbledore arguing about Snape not wanting to follow orders. Dumbledore knew about the vow and what would happen, and knew he needed to get his house in order before the completion of the vow. If Snape really wanted to kill Dumbledore for evil purposes, why would he tell Dumbledore the details of the vow and make such a scene?

Snape healing Dumbledore after he destroys the Marvolo heirloom ring/horcrux doesn't really help the evil side either.
That's all supposition. We don't know what the argument was about. It may have very well been Snape saying he didn't want to spy for Dumbledore any more.

As for the healing A) Spying B) Dumbledore was still well enough to hex him into oblivion.


EDIT: As for him giving the job to Snape A) He may have thought that Snape would actually be a competent DADA teacher (HA!) B) He may have finally wised up and wanted to get rid of Snape in a manner that couldn't be traced back to himself.

Snape was caught between two masters, a precarious position. He had the chance to eliminate one and he took it.

[AF$]

That's all supposition. We don't know what the argument was about. It may have very well been Snape saying he didn't want to spy for Dumbledore any more.

Snape was caught between two masters, a precarious position. He had the chance to eliminate one and he took it.It's no more supposition than anything you are saying. Snape wasn't really caught between two masters. He was caught between which life he valued more, Dumbledore's or his own. He breaks the vow, he dies. He doesn't, Dumbledore dies. You can't deduce Snape's sole allegiance to one side based on the information we were presented with in this book. That's what makes JKR's writing so great, for debate like this.

[Wounded_Dragon]

It's no more supposition than anything you are saying. Snape wasn't really caught between two masters. He was caught between which life he valued more, Dumbledore's or his own. He breaks the vow, he dies. He doesn't, Dumbledore dies. You can't deduce Snape's sole allegiance to one side based on the information we were presented with in this book. That's what makes JKR's writing so great, for debate like this.
What makes you think he chose either of those "sides?" Snape's only into looking after number 1.

Why does "Snape is good!" gall me? Because I guarantee you that by the end of the week there will be a swarm of "Redeemed!Snape" and "Snape is really Harry's father" fanfics sweeping the fanfic sites.

[purplehairedwonder]

Because I guarantee you that by the end of the week there will be a swarm of "Redeemed!Snape" and "Snape is really Harry's father" fanfics sweeping the fanfic sites.Not that you didn't get those beforehand.

Anyway, my thoughts are more along the lines that Snape isn't necessarily good, but he sees the necessity of getting rid of Voldemort and thus works in whatever ways he can for the Order. The main problem I come up with, though, is that if Snape killed Dumbledore so he could remain a spy for the Order, who is he going to report to in the Order? The known members all think he's a murderer (as far as we saw, except for Dung, whose in Azkaban...). *Head spins uncontrollably*


Yeah, it was telling Dumbledore gave Snape the Darks Arts job when he knew it was jinxed. I had the same thought.And in his place we get Slughorn, a capable Potions professor in his own right. If the job had been jinxed, perhaps Snape would have left that position but returned to Potions. Instead, Snape is forced to flee for his life and (if Hogwarts remains open for year 7), we have a Potions professor, but once again, no Defense professor. *Thoughts take many forks and begin to spin once more*

[Hordesman]

What makes you think he chose either of those "sides?" Snape's only into looking after number 1.

The thing is, the HP books are written from Harry's point-of-view. If you think back to Philosopher's Stone, Harry's observations are biased against Snape. In Azkaban, it's against Sirius Black. Rowling describes things in a fairly neutral way but Harry is in the dark about certain things and prone to misinterpretations as a result.


Why does "Snape is good!" gall me? Because I guarantee you that by the end of the week there will be a swarm of "Redeemed!Snape" and "Snape is really Harry's father" fanfics sweeping the fanfic sites.

Man, my favorite was the one where Ron talked back to Snape and got him running from the classroom in tears... or was it the one where Snape woke up next to Uncle Vernon? :evil:

Eh, the one year DADA teacher bit... Snape was the factor behind Lupin quitting after one year. I think that's pretty interesting but I'm not sure it adds up to anything. And if he's really-really working for Voldemort, it's possible he wasn't just looking to catch Black but help Wormtail escape as well.

[silverwings]

Just thought of something...

How is Snape the HBP?

I mean, the book was published 50 years ago and Snape was a student around the same time as James, who was not a student 50 years ago (Harry checks the date to see if the HBP would be his dad). So, uh, unless Snape was poor as a child and had to borrow/buy used, how is he the HBP?

(spoilered just to be safe).

[Lord Dalek]

Just thought of something...

How is Snape the HBP?

I mean, the book was published 50 years ago and Snape was a student around the same time as James, who was not a student 50 years ago (Harry checks the date to see if the HBP would be his dad). So, uh, unless Snape was poor as a child and had to borrow/buy used, how is he the HBP?

(spoilered just to be safe).
Well you must remember that there is a 8-9 year gap between events in the Potterverse and the present time, so what would be 1955 becomes 1965.

[silverwings]

Well you must remember that there is a 8-9 year gap between events in the Potterverse and the present time, so what would be 1955 becomes 1965.O_o

I'm confused now... :sweat: In the Potterverse, as far as I can tell..
50 years ago: Voldy is a student, Dumbledore just a teacher
x<50 years ago: James, Snape, etc are students (x is probably 20-30 years ago, i'm guessing)

so.. since snape wasn't a student 50 years ago when the potions book the HBP used was published... I guess I'm confused on just that. Or is it misleading to assume that the HBP used the book around the time it was published?

[BeastBoyWonder]

Just thought of something...

How is Snape the HBP?

I mean, the book was published 50 years ago and Snape was a student around the same time as James, who was not a student 50 years ago (Harry checks the date to see if the HBP would be his dad). So, uh, unless Snape was poor as a child and had to borrow/buy used, how is he the HBP?

(spoilered just to be safe).

Its because Snape's mother's maiden name is Prince. It was her diary, passed onto Snape... hence the name "Half Blood Prince."

[the Amanda]

In one of the Marauder-era memories (in a previous book), doesn't it mention that Snape has shabby robes and borrowed books?

[Tanooki]

In one of the Marauder-era memories (in a previous book), doesn't it mention that Snape has shabby robes and borrowed books?yep. it's during occlumency lessons with snape when harry uses the shield charm "protego" to counter snape's attack and harry sees memories from snape's childhood. as far as i understood it, snape was poor and his muggle father beat his witch mother

"prince" is my second favorite of all the harry potter books, right after "prisoner" but there are some things i didn't like


-i did like when harry and ginny finally hooked up. "hurray! potter fanboy is pleased!" what i did not like about it was how there was basically no build up on harry's behalf in the previous books and rowling only had harry and ginny alone like once or twice in "prince". otherwise it was "harry, ron, hermione, and ginny sat..." as if ginny was now a member of the exclusive group
--also didn't like the "spider-man" tribute of "i can't love you because my enemies will get at me through you". seriously. i started thinking ginny was mj and harry's wand could shoot webs. let them date already!

-the ending. it just stopped. af$ and i were talking about this and it feels as if the story could say more at the end. possibly because rowling left out the trip back home?

-i did like the fact that hermione and ron didn't technically become a couple in the book. there were too many other relationships starting instead. harry and ginny, ginny and dean, ron and lavender, lupin and tonks, bill and phlegm. i laughed hysterically when the common room password was "abstinence"

-finally, not pleased with harry's non-return to hogwarts in his seventh year. if he skips out, he'll have no chance at becoming an auror and no chance at getting back together with ginny :( but if my theory is correct as to book seven, this won't matter. my theory is somehow voldemort made harry a horcrux when he blasted harry with the avada kadavra when he was just a baby. so, in order to make sure voldemort dies for good, harry will have to kill voldemort and himself at the same time

other than those tripes, a pretty solid read. though i feel cheated page wise. i thought the type looked a little bigger and sure enough when compared to my copy of "order of the phoenix", we are cheated of 3 or 4 lines on every page

enough complaining for now. i have to find my girlfriend and ask her to snog o_O

Falcon

[Fone Bone]

Well you must remember that there is a 8-9 year gap between events in the Potterverse and the present time, so what would be 1955 becomes 1965.This is true. In the Chamber of Secrets Nearly Headless Nick's 500th deathday party takes place in 1992 which would place the events of Half-Blood Prince in 1996.

[the Amanda]

-finally, not pleased with harry's non-return to hogwarts in his seventh year. if he skips out, he'll have no chance at becoming an auror and no chance at getting back together with ginny :( but if my theory is correct as to book seven, this won't matter. my theory is somehow voldemort made harry a horcrux when he blasted harry with the avada kadavra when he was just a baby. so, in order to make sure voldemort dies for good, harry will have to kill voldemort and himself at the same time


If it's clear that Harry skipped out to fight Voldy, then, if he lives, I'm sure McGonagall (presumably) would let him back in to finish his final year.

[Spastic Minnow]

No need for spoiler tags guys, it says spoilers in the title, they're to be expected.

At this time it's Harry's plan not to return, I think the Order will make it worth his while to return. I foresee sanctioned Hogwarts "field trips" in book 7 so he can venture out occasionally. It's not a Harry Potter book without Hogwarts.

[Azrael24]

and if ron and hermione are coming with him that means they're gonna skip their 7th year too! that would suck!! but if you look at it like this it be good:

the 7th book is the telling of how harry, ron, and hermione find the horxuses, and killed voldemort. but its not their seventh year at howarts, so maybe (unlikely though) jk rowling will make another book telling about their last year at hogwarts

[atf487]

back when all this potter stuff happened, they said 7 novels, for each year at hogwarts. so im guessing he'll end up going there anyway, maybe getting leave to go fight voldy. he'd only be taking a few classes anyway, because hes only taking what he needs to be an auror.

[Lachesis]

Just thought of something...

How is Snape the HBP?

I mean, the book was published 50 years ago and Snape was a student around the same time as James, who was not a student 50 years ago (Harry checks the date to see if the HBP would be his dad). So, uh, unless Snape was poor as a child and had to borrow/buy used, how is he the HBP?

(spoilered just to be safe).

Well, consider that 20 years later, Harry's class is still using the same textbook...

[atf487]

I don't think the book ever said when snape used it; the published date is to give an idea, but like someone said, snape used old books and worn robes, so it was most likely that snape used it in the late 60s, early 70s, because harry was born in 1980 or so and i don't think lily/james put out a kid right after hogwarts.

[Spastic Minnow]

As Hermione found out, it was his mother's book. And whether or not Snape had money enough to buy new books, if a book has only had one other owner it shouldn't be too beaten up. Snape was also apparently proud of his mother, another reason to want to use the same book that she did, and use it as his source book for not only his improved potions but also a place to work on his hexes.

But yeah, it seems a little odd that they never printed out a new book. If Snape's notes mean anything than it certainly could have used a few revisions.

[Mike Spartz]

-finally, not pleased with harry's non-return to hogwarts in his seventh year. Why are so many people here upset over this? I think it's a great idea for Harry to skip his seventh year to go fight Voldemort for several reasons. First of all, there's the obvious fact that Hogwarts is no longer safe with Dumbledore dead. Voldemort could attack at any time and being stuck in school doesn't really help Harry's chances of finding the Horcruxes now does it? The wizarding world is at war and the sooner Harry can finish Voldie off the better. In fact, keeping Harry at Hogwarts with the intention of protecting him only increases his chances of death because it makes him completely ignorant and helpless against the growing power of the Dark Lord. Harry needs to take the fight to Voldemort and the only way to do that is to start destroying the Horcruxes. Moreover, Harry won't be alone on his journey. He'll have the unwavering help of Ron and Hermione and, more likely than not, assistance from the Order as well. Harry needs to step up and face his destiny and now the time to do so is finally at hand.


, he'll have no chance at becoming an auror and no chance at getting back together with ginny Oh, COME ON! Do you really believe that after Potter defeats the greatest Dark Lord of the last half-century, the entire wizarding world won't be in his debt? Of course they will! And believe me, the Ministry of Magic and Hogwarts will have no choice but to give him and his friends Ron and Hermione a second chance at fulfilling their education. Oh, and Ginny (provided that she doesn't die in the war) will undoubtedly return to Harry.


-i did like when harry and ginny finally hooked up. "hurray! potter fanboy is pleased!" what i did not like about it was how there was basically no build up on harry's behalf in the previous booksThere was build up in HBP and OoTP for that matter. Harry is cited several times in the first half of Prince commenting on the "monster in his belly" and how it flares up in regards to Ginny. That monster is Harry's protective side coming into play. Remember that at this point, Harry has known Ginny for several years and he's always treated her like a little sister. He loves her, we know that, he just hasn't approached her romantically. But Harry is also a teenager and he has issues with his hormones. In this case, I think hormones combined with his admiration of Ginny's backbone on and off the quidditch field, really made Harry notice Ginny for the first time. And when has Harry ever been known to think about stuff? We saw in OoTP how he'll jump into a dangerous situation on a moments notice to help his friends without really thinking it through. If anything, I think Harry acted prefectly fine. I do agree however that the actual romance was too short. We didn't even get a single scene with the two of them alone together. But once again, love doesn't always have to "make sense" , a lot of the time it's just a feeling that comes naturally.


Anyway, my thoughts are more along the lines that Snape isn't necessarily good, but he sees the necessity of getting rid of Voldemort and thus works in whatever ways he can for the Order. The main problem I come up with, though, is that if Snape killed Dumbledore so he could remain a spy for the Order, who is he going to report to in the Order? The known members all think he's a murderer (as far as we saw, except for Dung, whose in Azkaban...). *Head spins uncontrollably*I've been wondering about that as well. I remember reading an interview by JKR on the HP Lexicon, and she said that we'll be learning a bit more about one of the members of the Order of the Phenoix. She also said that this member has already been introduced into the series. Maybe this mysterious Order member is the person with whom Snape will be communicating to on the wherabouts of the Dark Lord. Shaklebot or Dedaldus Diggle perhaps? Another theory that I have revolves about the use of paintings. Maybe Snape has a painting of Dumbledore in his possession and is using it to communicate with him/

[Fan of Sponge]

I've just finished the book and I think I know who destoried the thrid Horcurx and possibly know where the forth is:

R.A.B. might stand for Sirius' brother.

Read page 116 of the Order of the Phoenix and see how they are cleaning in Sirius' house. Kreacher might have the locket after all.

[Phantasm]

Just finished reading the book. And I am feeling...numb of all things. Dumbledore's death was certainly the BIGGEST theme of the book, and I spoiled it for myself when I was only halfway through the book and immensely enjoying it.

I feel all the shock value, which would have made the climax of the book work, was lost on me.:( I knew Snape was a traitor before witnessed him proving so...EVERYTHING'S RUINED!!!!!!!!:(

But the fact remains that Rowling is a BRILLIANT writer.And thsi IS an exceptional addition to the series,regardless of the fact that I RUINED it for myself!!!!

[Fone Bone]

Just finished reading the book. And I am feeling...numb of all things. Dumbledore's death was certainly the BIGGEST theme of the book, and I spoiled it for myself when I was only halfway through the book and immensely enjoying it.

I feel all the shock value, which would have made the climax of the book work, was lost on me.:( I knew Snape was a traitor before witnessed him proving so...EVERYTHING'S RUINED!!!!!!!!:(

But the fact remains that Rowling is a BRILLIANT writer.And thsi IS an exceptional addition to the series,regardless of the fact that I RUINED it for myself!!!!Aw, Phantasm, you should know better than peeking. I didn't even read the chapter titles at the beginning of the book. For the final book I'm not even going to look at the illustrations.:D

Anyone else love Luna Lovegood's commentary on the Quidditch match? I'm with Ron. I'd definately prefer a sports commentator talking about cloud patterns instead of talking about the match.:D

[bigddan11]

Be sure to read inbetween the lines carefully. For example, the book may have been made 50 years ago, as in that was the first release date, but that doesn't mean that that text book was bought 50 years ago. Harry was using the same text book in the present day, which basically just means it's proven to be the most effective book at making potions. Nowhere does it tell us the version of that book.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Be sure to read inbetween the lines carefully. For example, the book may have been made 50 years ago, as in that was the first release date, but that doesn't mean that that text book was bought 50 years ago. Harry was using the same text book in the present day, which basically just means it's proven to be the most effective book at making potions. Nowhere does it tell us the version of that book.

Again, JKR explicitly explains the timing near the end of the book.

[the Amanda]

Aw, Phantasm, you should know better than peeking. I didn't even read the chapter titles at the beginning of the book. For the final book I'm not even going to look at the illustrations.:D

Anyone else love Luna Lovegood's commentary on the Quidditch match? I'm with Ron. I'd definately prefer a sports commentator talking about cloud patterns instead of talking about the match.:D
Yeah, I made the mistake of looking at the chapter titles, and the last chapter's title is a real giveaway....

I think Luna should comment on Quidditch all the time. I also loved how McGonagall was standing behind her trying to get her to focus and adding in the important stuff. :D

[Phantasm]

I think I died laughing during the Quidditch scene!

Rowling is a BRILLIANT woman!!!
:anime:

[Fone Bone]

I think I died laughing during the Quidditch scene!

Rowling is a BRILLIANT woman!!!
:anime:Until I know exactly what the real deal with Snape is Luna Lovegood has overtaken him as my favorite character.

Entertainment Weekly had two correspondents argue for both sides whether or not Snape was good or evil. Here are the arguments they made:

Snape Vs. Snape
Two opposing views on just whose side Harry's nemesis is on

Bad Snape:

*Severus Snape kills Dumbledore using "Avada Kedavra," a you-gotta-mean-it-for-it-work Unforgivable Curse.

*Once a Voldemort-lovin', half-blood-hatin' Death Eater, always a Voldemort-lovin', half-blood-hatin' Death Eater.

*He's a master of Occlumency, the "magical defense of the mind against external penatration." Few can see through HIS lies.

*Despite "trusting" Snape, Dumbledore refrains from appointing his former pupil Professor of Defense Against the Dark Arts for years. The second he gets the job? Death all around.

*Dumbledore admits that being "rather cleverer than most men" his mistakes are "correspondingly huger". Trusting a man who's betrayed him before? Huge mistake.

*Harry's been saying it all along.

----Michelle Kung

Good Snape:

*Snape must fulfill his do-or-die Unbreakable Vow to protect Dumbledore's would-be assasin, Draco Malfoy--preserving his cover as a double agent. So he reluctantly kills the Hogwarts headmaster to continue spying on Voldemort for the Order of the Pheonix.

*Dumbledore was ordering Snape to kill him, not begging for his life. He'd NEVER beg!

*Even while battling Harry, Snape reminds him to "keep you mind shut and your mouth closed"--sound advice for his former Occlumency pupil. Plus, Snape has rescued Harry several times--however begrudgingly--and even tells the Death Eaters in book 6 to hold off killing him, supposedly on Voldemort's "orders".

*Dumbledore trusts him completely. That's good enough for us.

-----Paul Katz

I had another thought after rereading the book. The argument that Hargid overheard between Dumbledore and Snape had to do with Snape telling the headmaster that he could take care of affairs in his own house. We were led to believe he was talking about Slytherin--but we have to remember he made the Unbreakable Vow in Spinnet's End which is ALSO his house. So if they WERE talking about Spinnets End we have to consider the possiblity that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow before he died and may have been the reason he appointed Snape Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher.

Book seven is going to be a looooong wait.:(

By the way, the EW article showed pictures from the movie version of the upcoming Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Hermione has her hair pulled back and Harry amd Ron both have long hair!

[Azrael24]

do you mean snape was your fav character?? why??

hes absolutely awfull to harry and all of the gryffindors, and ravenclaw and hufflepuff. even before this book he was sooo evil

[Phantasm]

*Dumbledore was ordering Snape to kill him, not begging for his life. He'd NEVER beg!

*Dumbledore trusts him completely. That's good enough for us.

THAT is an interesting point. True, Dumbledore has admittedly never considered life important enough to resort to BEGGING. And he could NEVER have begged Snape...he was forcing him to kill him...:eek: :crying:

Besides, wasn't he just TOO careless in this book? Dumbledore is ANYTHING but stupid and driking the potion was NOT a mistake of sorts. He seemed to make Harry prepared for his death even before they left for the Horcrux. He PLANNED it himself.:eek:

[Wounded_Dragon]

THAT is an interesting point. True, Dumbledore has admittedly never considered life important enough to resort to BEGGING. And he could NEVER have begged Snape...he was forcing him to kill him...:eek: :crying:

Besides, wasn't he just TOO careless in this book? Dumbledore is ANYTHING but stupid and driking the potion was NOT a mistake of sorts. He seemed to make Harry prepared for his death even before they left for the Horcrux. He PLANNED it himself.:eek:
Oy, what is this, round gazillion.

Think that if you want, but know that are other interpretations that are just as valid.

Dumbledore could've been begging, just not for his life. But for Snape to not betray him.

I find it hilarious how many arguments use "Dumbledore trusted him" as a point. That point doesn't work at all, as it requires Dumbledore to be infallible. He already he makes mistakes, and he usually makes big mistakes. He did just that in OotP (did everyone just wipe this book from their memories? Seems like JKR did).

Prepared for this death...right. That's why Harry can barely match Draco, what with all of Dumbledore's lovely training...

Points to add to the Snape is Evil/Good argument:

1. Within HOURS of the book coming out, theories about how Snape was still good were worked out. JKR loves twists. A twist would be his staying evil.

2. If Snape was still good, that would be a triplecross. But a triplecross isn't very interesting if the side never trusted him in the first place. And the Order never did. They trusted *Dumbledore,* not Snape.

[Isondill]

I just finished the book ( I got my copy in the mail yesterday... I haven't been able to put it down since!) and I've decided that I would like to make a few points myself. This is of course entirely based on speculation and I do not deny that I am merely sharing my interpretations on J.K. Rowlings writing.

- Harry is likely a Horcruxes. He will not, however, die. He is the boy who lived. The scar, as already suggested by a poster in this thread, will disapear once all other splices of Voldemorts soul are destoryed.

- Dumbledore did instruct Snape to kill him if the cost was necessary. 1) He wanted Snape to protect Dracoy for he did not wish the boy to become a murderer. 2) He was seen arguing with Snape. We do not know exactly what this may have been about. 3) He trusted Snape above all else. For me, and I'm sure for many others here, that is more than enough. I do not feel he would have made such a grave mistake.

- I'm not quite sure why no one has broughten this up... Did NO ONE else think the words coming out of Dumbledore's mouth when Harry was forcing him to drink from the goblet find it peculiar what he was saying? It seemed to me like he was either recalling one of his memories or one of Voldemorts. It did not seem as though it was due to pain... although, I do not doubt, that he was in great agony. My sister is currently reading my copy of the book and I wish to not take it from her. If anyone else could please take their copies, look it up, and post that bit here on this forum I would rather appreciate it. The exact words are slipping my mind.

EDIT: I found part of what I'm talking about on another site. Here's a quote: Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore’s mouth….
Dumbledore…moaned, ‘Don’t hurt them, don’t hurt them, please, please, it’s my fault, hurt me instead…’
Dumbledore drank, and no sooner had he finished than he yelled, ‘KILL ME!’ (pp. 571 – 573)

- This is a small clue, perhaps, but I am amazed no one has mentioned this. Snape's hands twitch when he agrees to the Unbreakable Vow. This could have meant a number of things but I believe it leans towards the fact that Snape is aware of what he is doing will result in someone's death but he needs to be believed in by the Death Eaters to continue to gain information. In fact, it is quite possible he did not know about the plan. He could have simply been guessing to help find out what there was to know for the order. This is also, perhaps, why he questions Draco later in the book. The part where Harry overhear's them. Of course, This is a shining example of the power of interpration.

- Harry defends the Half-Blood Prince in the book because he sees a bit of HIMSELF in him. Hermione even says she thought that the Half-Blood Prince was a "troublemaker" but not evil... Perhaps Snape told Harry this information as to try and give him a hint that he is on his side? Perhaps with the fact he would not let the death-eaters kill Harry?

- I believe Regulus Black is a likely candidate for the person who got a hold of the Horcruxe that Dumbledore and Harry were attempting to get. We already know he "betrayed him" as mentioned in the previous book. I suppose he is dead but I believe the real item has not been destroyed. It could be "a heavy locket that none of them could open” (pg. 116 of OOTP) inside of Grimmaulde Place.

Of course, alas, all of this could be wrong. I hate to say it... If Snape turns out to be pure evil then I can't help but feel as though I won't like this series anymore... and I LOVE this series so that is saying a lot. I don't love Snape, nor have I ever intended to, but I have always felt that deep down he was a good person. One of the major points of these books is that people are not always as they seem. They are of different shades and not purely black or white in their intentions. Snape is nasty sometimes, yes, but in the end he was always making the right decisions. A person who knew what was important in the end. If he's not good then who really is? What would be the point? All it would prove is that Dumbledore was wrong about him. And that, I'm afraid, is soemthing I can never believe.

[Wounded_Dragon]

I do not feel he would have made such a grave mistake.


Of course, alas, all of this could be wrong. I hate to say it... If Snape turns out to be pure evil then I can't help but feel as though I won't like this series anymore... and I LOVE this series so that is saying a lot. I don't love Snape, nor have I ever intended to, but I have always felt that deep down he was a good person. One of the major points of these books is that people are not always as they seem. They are of different shades and not purely black or white in their intentions. Snape is nasty sometimes, yes, but in the end he was always making the right decisions. A person who knew what was important in the end. If he's not good then who really is? What would be the point? All it would prove is that Dumbledore was wrong about him. And that, I'm afraid, is soemthing I can never believe.

Dumbledore said in HBP that when he makes mistakes, he makes them big. He SCREWED UP in OotP and someone DIED. Geez, people really did wipe OotP from their minds.

Snape NEVER EVER made the right decisions for the RIGHT reasons. He always made them because they served his own purposes, whether to stay under Dumbledore's protective umbrella or serve as Voldemort's spy. What about when Snape was all set to turn Sirius in just to win awards (and hurt an old school rival)?

Snape may serve Good on occassion, but he will never BE good.

[Fone Bone]

do you mean snape was your fav character?? why??

hes absolutely awfull to harry and all of the gryffindors, and ravenclaw and hufflepuff. even before this book he was sooo evilI liked Snape for the sole reason that he was complicated. He was supposedly serving on the side of good but he was a horrible person. That's GOOD as a lot of characters that are buttholes have just simply been evil. I think Snape being evil lessens the message that Rowling has been trying to impart that blood doesn't matter. I think it's a bad idea but I trust that Rowling knows what she's doing. I am heartened by the fact that his "betrayal" can be interpreted in many ways. I don't have an opinion at the moment whether Snape is good or evil. It could honestly go either way at this point.

And Isondill I could totally buy Harry being a Horcrux if he doesn't die at the end of the series. The biggest problem I had from the theory was that Voldemort would win if that was the case but the idea of his scar merely disappearing after he banishes the last part of Voldemort IS appealing. However I don't think the theory is that likely as the only Horcrux we aren't sure about is something that belongs to Gryffindor or Ravenclaw. Unless Harry is a direct descendant of Gryffindor. Actually, that seems to be a possiblity...:ack:

Now I don't know WHAT to think.:eek:

[MonkeyFunk]

Something that hasn't been discussed yet - if Hogwarts is still open in book 7, who'll be the new headmaster?
I'd say either McGonnagal or Fudge.

[Phantasm]

McGonagall definately. She is the new Headmistress.

It was really sad to see Dumbledore's portrait in his own office after like what, 30 mins of his passing? Wow...His death will need some serious getting used to.

[Fone Bone]

Something that hasn't been discussed yet - if Hogwarts is still open in book 7, who'll be the new headmaster?
I'd say either McGonnagal or Fudge.Yes, definately McGonagall. For some reason even though Harry says he isn't going back there I can't help but feel it would be wrong for some of the action taking place not to be at Hogwarts.

I also really want to see more of Ginny, Neville, and Luna in the final book. Hopefully they'd decide not to go back next too and can help out with the Order of the Pheonix. Who dies next book? Any predictions? My money's on Snape and Voldemort. Other candidates are Ron, Hagrid, Lupin and Malfoy. I don't think Rowling could get away with killing Harry, Hagrid, Hermione, or any of the Weasleys and still have the ending be a happy one which I think will be important for the final book. I had a feeling they were going to kill Dumbledore eventually and it makes sense for Rowling to do it in the next to last book to raise the stakes for the final book.

[Phantasm]

hhmm....what was up with the part where Snape just snaps when Harry calls him a coward? He is furious, roaring,"DON'T!CALL ME A COWARD!!"

Why?:confused: Hasn't he been called a lot worse by Harry and lot? Is it just me who thinks this has something to do with him just killing Dumbledore?It would have taken a LOT of strength for Snape to do something so terrible even if the person ASKED asked for it, which I like to think Albus did...

[Sharklady]

> JKR: And let's face it, (Half Blood Prince is) going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories. <

Boy, JKR will have a splendid time if she comes across *this* thread!
Just to add a speculation of my own:

Is it possible that Dumbledore is not quite 100% dead- that he's figured a way to put at least part of himself into a Horcrux, not by doing murder, but by being murdered? (If any wizard could pull that off, it's him.)
And, as Dumbledore explicitly said that a living thing could be a Horcrux, is it possible Fawks is serving that role? Shall Dumbledore, in pheonix form, reappear & preform some crucial function in the final confontation with Voldemort? Afterwhich he shall finally die completely- but in triumph!

No need to get into an uproar about any of these theories, of course- they shall all be dashed, or confirmed, when Book Seven comes out.

Dang, it's gonna be a long wait...

[Mike Spartz]

>
Is it possible that Dumbledore is not quite 100% dead- that he's figured a way to put at least part of himself into a Horcrux, not by doing murder.....And, as Dumbledore explicitly said that a living thing could be a Horcrux, is it possible Fawks is serving that role? Shall Dumbledore, in pheonix form.No, I don't believe that Fawkes is a Horcurx. Dumbledore is clearly seen slumbering in a portrait frame in Mcgonagall's new office at the end of HBP. That means he's dead for sure or else there'd be no portrait. Furthermore, why would Dumbledore want a Horcruxe anyway? It's totally unlike him to have one. Dumbledore welcomes death remember and you're mistaken - you have to murder to form a horcruxe - it says so in the book.


hhmm....what was up with the part where Snape just snaps when Harry calls him a coward? He is furious, roaring,"DON'T!CALL ME A COWARD!!"Read the previous pages of this thread, I'm sure you'll find a couple theories on it.

[Sharklady]

> Furthermore, why would Dumbledore want a Horcruxe anyway? <

So that he can leave just enough of himself behind to continue fighting Voldemort. He'd certainly want to do that, if he could.

> Dumbledore is clearly seen slumbering in a portrait frame in Mcgonagall's new office at the end of HBP. That means he's dead for sure or else there'd be no portrait. <

But so far it's a portrait of Dumbledore napping. Maybe it will continue to show him that way- a clue that the man hasn't quite crossed all the way over.

> ...you have to murder to form a horcruxe - it says so in the book. <

So far as we know, that's the only method. But like I said, if any wizard can figure out another way, it's Dumbledore.

Actually, it wasn't Horcruxes that got me started on this speculation. It was Dumbledore's words to Malfoy, about how effectively you can hide if everyone believes you're dead, and that there are little-known ways to accomplish such an illusion. It occured to me (as it's occured to others) that Dumbledore might have also been directing those words to Harry, to clue him in to what he was about to do (either with aid of a Horcrux, or by other means.) He couldn't tell Harry this explicitly, by leaving behind a letter or such, because it's been established Harry is deficient at Occulumency, and this info must be concealed from the Death Eaters at all costs.

So, I won't be totally astonished if Dumbledore makes some kind of final appearence in book seven. And (as shall likely be the case with Harry), I'll be so happy to see him I won't even mind the deception.

[Fone Bone]

hhmm....what was up with the part where Snape just snaps when Harry calls him a coward? He is furious, roaring,"DON'T!CALL ME A COWARD!!"

Why?:confused: Hasn't he been called a lot worse by Harry and lot? Is it just me who thinks this has something to do with him just killing Dumbledore?It would have taken a LOT of strength for Snape to do something so terrible even if the person ASKED asked for it, which I like to think Albus did...I think if Dumbledore DID ask Snape to kill him it was probably the hardest thing Snape ever had to do. Not only would he have to kill someone he respected but he would be wanted by the wizarding world at large and could never go home again and have to live his life on the run. The idea of someone calling him a coward after giving up his entire life for the greater good WOULD make him upset.

Note: This theory only works if Snape is good. If he's evil I have no idea why it would make him that mad.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Note: This theory only works if Snape is good. If he's evil I have no idea why it would make him that mad.
Easy (and I think I've probably said it before): he'd just taken the easy route and betrayed one master to serve the other more powerful one. He'd just taken the cowardly route, and hates being reminded of it, let alone being reminded of it by the son of his most bitter enemy as well as a living symbol of Dumbledore.

[Stewie]

Bummer. Dumbledore was my favorite character. I'm not enjoying the series as much as I did before. Not that I was glad Sirius died (2nd favrorite), but I still enjoyed reading it. She could have killed Hagrid, Hermione, Lupin, Tonks, McGonagall, Mad-Eye Moody, Luna, Neville, and the entire Weasly family (Fred and George twice), and I would have enjoyed that more than this. I liked all those characters. I really do. (some of them a lot) But Dumbledore was the only person dying that would make me enjoy the books less. Except for Harry of course, but that's just because he's central. If he died the story would just suck.

I'll read Book Seven because I want to find out what happens. But I don't think my heart's in it any more. Unless we see Dumbledore in some form. If at some point we get some sort of message from Dumbledore, then I'll be okay. And especially if he didn't just die because he got beat. If it's all part of a master plan/grand scheme of life sort of thing, then I won't mind it nearly as much. Not that I'm subcribing to the "Snape is good" theory (wishing, but not believing yet), but I'm hoping that Dumbledore is redeemed. Maybe that's why I'm so upset at his death. I don't like the idea of him being defeated. And without taking an army of Death Eaters with him.

Yeah, if Dumbledore makes an appearance in Book Seven, even just a letter written to Harry before his death, or in the painting, then I'll be satisfied.


So, I won't be totally astonished if Dumbledore makes some kind of final appearence in book seven.That's what I'm wondering. I don't think he's alive by any means. But I wonder how the paintings work? If they have the memories and personalities of the people they represent, are those people not still alive?
And what about ghosts? How does one become a ghost. Harry asked that at the end of OotP, but I don't remember it being really explained.

As for the "Snape is good" theory, I don't see that it can be completely dismissed (unless you want to read into what JK said in that Mugglenet interview. She didn't exactly give life to it.) But I think we have to go on the assumption that Snape is evil. The only real evidence (that was displayed in front of the reader) is that Snape killed Dumbledore. It's an interesting theory, one that can't be ruled out by any means, and one that I hope will come true. But it's a theory until Book Seven, or JK tells us something in an interview.

[bigddan11]

I've listened to the good Snape vs. Bad Snape theory, and after reading the book a second time I'm convinced that Snape is still evil. The main reason is because of the description Rowling gives Snape when he's confronting Harry at the end. It says Snape has an amount of hatred on his face that Harry had only seen once, and that was when Snape was killing Dumbledore. I can understand that Snape would be disgusted at Dumbledore for having to kill him, but why would he have the same anger towards harry?

As for Dumbledore being a horcrux, it's not going to happen. People always want to deny reality so they come up with interesting theories. I do think Faux will have a role to play in Book 7 with Harry and company, but it won't be with Dumbledore inside of him. If Dumbledore appears in Book 7, it'll be through the Pensive, but with Harry having to locate a destroy 4 horcruxes in Book 7, it'll be highly unlikely that we'll see the Pensive again, unless the Pensive is the thing telling the story with all of Harry's thoughts inside.

[Isondill]

I thought of another theory.

The Part where Dumbledore and Harry go to retrieve the Horcrux seems very peculiar. I believe when Dumbledore basically says " want to stop, back out, don't hurt them, kill me instead" it could be Snape talking to Voldemort when he was about to kill Lily. This could also be why Dumbledore trusted Snape. He knew the regret Snape felt, for Voldemort had killed the only person he ever loved... This is, of course, assuming Snape loved Lily. I wouldn't entirely rule out that possibility.


As for Dumbledore making a grave mistake, I think he made one by not telling Harry why he trusted Snape entirely.

[Raissa]

I thought of another theory.

The Part where Dumbledore and Harry go to retrieve the Horcrux seems very peculiar. I believe when Dumbledore basically says " want to stop, back out, don't hurt them, kill me instead" it could be Snape talking to Voldemort when he was about to kill Lily. This could also be why Dumbledore trusted Snape. He knew the regret Snape felt, for Voldemort had killed the only person he ever loved... This is, of course, assuming Snape loved Lily. I wouldn't entirely rule out that possibility.


As for Dumbledore making a grave mistake, I think he made one by not telling Harry why he trusted Snape entirely.I was wondering when someone would bring that up. Here's my variation of that theory:

Snape realized that he was really in love with Lily sometime after he made the mudblood comment to her (Occulemency Sequence, Book 5). What could he do? He'd blown his chance with her out of hurt pride and a need to fit in with the other name-calling Slytherin. Snape decides to use a love potion on Lily (foreshadowed by Ron's run-in with the love potion and Merope's use of the love potion on Tom Sr.

As with Ron and Tom Sr., the potion wears off, and Lily confronts Snape. He's really blown it. Things take their course, and Lily ends up with James, instead. Snape lives with unrequited love. This is foreshadowed by Slughorn's discussion of obsessive and unrequited love when he first introduces the love potion. That unrequited love and the circumstances surrounding it have driven Snape to act since Lily's death.

[Fone Bone]

I was wondering when someone would bring that up. Here's my variation of that theory:

Snape realized that he was really in love with Lily sometime after he made the mudblood comment to her (Occulemency Sequence, Book 5). What could he do? He'd blown his chance with her out of hurt pride and a need to fit in with the other name-calling Slytherin. Snape decides to use a love potion on Lily (foreshadowed by Ron's run-in with the love potion and Merope's use of the love potion on Tom Sr.

As with Ron and Tom Sr., the potion wears off, and Lily confronts Snape. He's really blown it. Things take their course, and Lily ends up with James, instead. Snape lives with unrequited love. This is foreshadowed by Slughorn's discussion of obsessive and unrequited love when he first introduces the love potion. That unrequited love and the circumstances surrounding it have driven Snape to act since Lily's death.I don't buy either of those theories. If Snape WERE in love with Lily he wouldn't have treated Harry so horribly even if he was James' son. I think there's an explaination for what Dumbledore said. I just don't think that's it.

And yes, Dumbledore should have told Harry presicely why he trusted Snape so much. I think Harry is under the impression that it is solely for the remorse he showed at Lily and James' death. And that's not a very convincing argument.

[Fone Bone]

I've listened to the good Snape vs. Bad Snape theory, and after reading the book a second time I'm convinced that Snape is still evil. The main reason is because of the description Rowling gives Snape when he's confronting Harry at the end. It says Snape has an amount of hatred on his face that Harry had only seen once, and that was when Snape was killing Dumbledore. I can understand that Snape would be disgusted at Dumbledore for having to kill him, but why would he have the same anger towards harry?
I don't disagree with you but you have to keep in mind that what happened was seen through Harry's perspective and NOT objective perspective. In each of the books so far (even this one in regards to the Potions book) Harry's perspective is always shown and argued for even when he is completely wrong. And he's been wrong about something huge in each of the previous five books.

[Sharklady]

> She could have killed Hagrid, Hermione, Lupin, Tonks, McGonagall, Mad-Eye Moody, Luna, Neville, and the entire Weasly family (Fred and George twice), and I would have enjoyed that more than this. <

No matter what character JKR killed, it would have been *somebody's* favorite, and they'd be upset that she hadn't snuffed somebody else.

I was also very saddened by Dumbledore's (apparent) demise, but I can't fault Rowling's strategy. Her books are following the same pattern as 'Lord of the Rings'; starting with happier tones and progressing through ever darker ones. An effective literary method for building suspense, and imparting meaning to the series' Final Confrontation.

And I suspect that if Harry survives, he, like Frodo, is going to discover that he can't make the transition back. This is the burden of being a Hero; taking on the sombering awareness of Evil so that others won't have to.

[Mike Spartz]

I don't buy either of those theories. If Snape WERE in love with Lily he wouldn't have treated Harry so horribly even if he was James' son.Really? This is Snape we're talking about. Snape who is and has always been a bitter, spiteful, jealous man. Assuming that Snape did love Lily, it only makes perfect sense that he would hate Harry. He wouldn't be able to stand the boy because he's a living reminder of James - Snapes rival and the man who took Lily from him. And the little glimpse that we saw of Snape's childhood in OoTP only re-enforces the notion that Snape's never had much happiness in his life. Therefore, if Lily showed him any love or compassion; it's only natural that he'd take it to extremes.

Bottom line, Snape loved Lily and Lily loved him too, but she didn't want a romantic relationship. Therefore, the idea that Snape used a love potion to woo Lily into his arms makes sense under the circumstances.

Oh and I agree with whoever said that Snape making a unbreakable vow with Dumbledore seems a probable theory that he would continue to spy for the Order.


Note: This theory only works if Snape is good. If he's evil I have no idea why it would make him that mad.If he is evil, being called a coward would anger him because he'd consider it a dirty insult. Think about it. He's just killed Dumbledore, the only wizard the Dark Lord has ever feared. All the Death Eaters are afraid of him. Obviously, Snape would consider killing Dumbledore to be a great act of courage and loyalty to Voldemort and he'd be insulted by anyone who thought otherwise.

[Sharklady]

> As for Dumbledore making a grave mistake, I think he made one by not telling Harry why he trusted Snape entirely. <

Unless, again, this was information Dumbledore couldn't entrust to Harry due to Harry's imperfect Occulmency skills. Because if Voldemort ever found out, he'd also be convinced Snape would never return to the Dark Side, and that would be the end of Snape's spying days (and of Snape, too, if the Death Eaters could get to him.)

> Obviously, Snape would consider killing Dumbledore to be a great act of courage and loyalty to Voldemort and he'd be insulted by anyone who thought otherwise. <

Aye. Whatever else you can say about Snape, good *or* evil, he is certainly no coward.

Re my theory that Dumbledore might make a reappearence in Book Seven: let me make it clear that I am *not* expecting a full-body resurrection- I imagine JKR doesn't want to invite comparisons to Gandalf. But D may have made arrangements to leave just a part of himself behind to help Harry. Dumbledore is, after all, an uncommonly resourceful individual, and he's had plenty of time to prepare for this eventuality.

There are several items in the HBP text which might be clues:

1. As mentioned: just before he was killed, Dumbledore talked about the effectiveness of hiding behind a false death.

2. JKR probably intends to reveal what Dumbledore was babbling about in the cave (‘Don’t hurt them, don’t hurt them, please, please, it’s my fault, hurt me instead… ‘KILL ME!’), and there's no surer way to find out than from the man himself.

3. Harry thought he saw a phoenix rising from Dumbledore's tomb. And we all know what phoenixes symbolize, don't we?

Or, maybe JKR is just tossing us some red herrings- she obviously loves doing that.

But one thing we can be absolutely sure of, is that Book Seven will be an interesting read.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Unless, again, this was information Dumbledore couldn't entrust to Harry due to Harry's imperfect Occulmency skills. Because if Voldemort ever found out, he'd also be convinced Snape would never return to the Dark Side, and that would be the end of Snape's spying days (and of Snape, too, if the Death Eaters could get to him.)Assuming Snape is a spy for Dumbledore. And again, it would help if Dumbledore actually TAUGHT Harry Occulmency because, frankly, I really doubt whatever Harry did to kick Voldemort out in OotP was Occulmency.

But that would mean Dumbledore teaching Harry something useful that doesn't involve "home movies."


Aye. Whatever else you can say about Snape, good *or* evil, he is certainly no coward.I dealt with that not 10 posts back or so. So yes, you CAN call him cowardly.

Besides, what kind of "brave" man picks on students that aren't allowed to fight back?



But one thing we can be absolutely sure of, is that Book Seven will be an interesting read.Or painful.

[Mike Spartz]

I dealt with that not 10 posts back or so. So yes, you CAN call him cowardly.

Besides, what kind of "brave" man picks on students that aren't allowed to fight back?There are shades to every color Dragon. Yes, Snape is immature when dealing with some of his students, but he's also brave to undertake the role of double agent. In my estimation, Snape is not a coward because he accomplishes the tasks asked of him. And he has gained the trust of both his "masters" in this regard. Unlike, Reglus Black (SP?), Snape has not backed out of his mission.

[Wounded_Dragon]

There are shades to every color Dragon. Yes, Snape is immature when dealing with some of his students, but he's also brave to undertake the role of double agent. In my estimation, Snape is not a coward because he accomplishes the tasks asked of him. And he has gained the trust of both his "masters" in this regard. Unlike, Reglus Black (SP?), Snape has not backed out of his mission.
But is it bravery, or self-service? Voldemort and Dumbledore both provide different types of protection, and both hold something over Snape's head. The immaturity he shows in dealing with his students tends to point more towards self-service than bravery.

[Raissa]

Whatever JKR does in Book 7, I think individual reactions come down to frame of reference. I'm a fan of a show called La Femme Nikita. Long story short, the show was put together by the folks who now produce 24. In LFN, the operatives were all officially dead, and marginal performers are put in "abeyance." They were sent on suicide missions where their deaths facilitated one or more objectives in the overall operation. For example, if they needed to frame someone for murder, one of the marginal operatives would actually be murdered with "proof" left behind of the target's guilt. There was also an incident on the show where a lower ranking mole was exposed and sacrificed to the terrorists so that another mole's cover went undetected. There's evidence for both sides of the Snape argument, but I'm prepared to contemplate that Dumbledore put himself in abeyance, because I had accepted that concept in other contexts over the years.

[Isondill]

The Snape and Lily theory does make sense. We already know from the interview on Mugglenet that Snape HAS been loved and that he himself HAS loved. However, J.K. Rowling would not give the circumstances... She also said "I can't answer that" when asked if someone else was there the night that Lily and James died. Couldn't it have been Snape? And if not, WHO?

[Drachentöter]

Oh and I agree with whoever said that Snape making a unbreakable vow with Dumbledore seems a probable theory that he would continue to spy for the Order. I doubt Dumbledore would ever make an Unbreakable Vow with anyone. To me, an Unbreakable Vow sounds like seriously dark magic (especially since Narcissa Malfoy was so eager to do it). The description of the spell was serpentine and sinister and any magic that has the capacity to kill somebody must have dark elements.

Furthermore, it goes against one of Dumbledore's main philosophies. Dumbledore consistently advocates trust in one's allies. It goes with his other major tenants of love conquering evil and good existing within every human being. I would never picture Dumbledore half-trusting a member of the Order -- either he believes someone 100% loyal or he doesn't encharge him with missions as important as Snape's.

Snape, prideful as he is, would be mortally offended if Dumbledore forced him to make an Unbreakable Vow. I think Dumbledore would have believed that pure loyalty as a result of a person's nature is more powerful and valuable than forced loyalty as a result of a lethal spell.

[Isondill]

I doubt Dumbledore would ever make an Unbreakable Vow with anyone. To me, an Unbreakable Vow sounds like seriously dark magic (especially since Narcissa Malfoy was so eager to do it). The description of the spell was serpentine and sinister and any magic that has the capacity to kill somebody must have dark elements.

Furthermore, it goes against one of Dumbledore's main philosophies. Dumbledore consistently advocates trust in one's allies. It goes with his other major tenants of love conquering evil and good existing within every human being. I would never picture Dumbledore half-trusting a member of the Order -- either he believes someone 100% loyal or he doesn't encharge him with missions as important as Snape's.

Snape, prideful as he is, would be mortally offended if Dumbledore forced him to make an Unbreakable Vow. I think Dumbledore would have believed that pure loyalty as a result of a person's nature is more powerful and valuable than forced loyalty as a result of a lethal spell.
I have to agree with you on this... THAT certainly never occured to me. Now that seems clear.

[Spastic Minnow]

The recent Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml) was full of juicy tidbits but I thought the most intriguing question and answer was this:



MA: Oh, here’s one [from our forums] that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?

JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. Not "Did Snape love Lily" (although that was asked and JKR wouldn't comment) but "Did anyone love Snape". And she answers with apparent quickness that he was loved, which begs the question "by whom?"

Now, considering his attitudes toward Draco and Narcissa wouldn't it make sense that, at some early point, Snape and Narcissa had a relationship? If he has some old feelings for her wouldn't it make sense that he would want to help her and look after her son? Just a little thought I had.

[Sharklady]

> Now, considering his attitudes toward Draco and Narcissa wouldn't it make sense that, at some early point, Snape and Narcissa had a relationship? If he has some old feelings for her wouldn't it make sense that he would want to help her and look after her son? <

I'd say that's a feasible idea. It would explain why Narcissa went straight to Snape when she was desperately seeking a protector for Malfoy.

Here's a little thought I had: maybe one of the reasons Dumbledore sent Harry to Snape for Occulmency lessons was so Snape could gauge Harry's ability in that area, and Dumbledore would know whether or not he could risk informing Harry about certain things (the verdict was, of course, that he'd better not tell Harry too much.)

[Mike Spartz]

Now, considering his attitudes toward Draco and Narcissa wouldn't it make sense that, at some early point, Snape and Narcissa had a relationship? If he has some old feelings for her wouldn't it make sense that he would want to help her and look after her son?I disagree. Narcissa went to Snape for help because she knew that he was one of Voldemort's most trusted servents. It had nothing to do with love for Snape - it was love over her son that propelled her to seek him out. Snape helped her for two possible reasons. A) He was in the presence of three known Death Eaters and if he refused it would've blown his cover. B) It was under Dumbledore's orders that Snape take the Unbreakable Vow to protect Draco and get closer to Voldemort.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Here's a little thought I had: maybe one of the reasons Dumbledore sent Harry to Snape for Occulmency lessons was so Snape could gauge Harry's ability in that area, and Dumbledore would know whether or not he could risk informing Harry about certain things (the verdict was, of course, that he'd better not tell Harry too much.)
And we saw how well that went by the end of OotP.

[Bladesong26]

General thoughts:
I'm of the opinion that Dumbledore's visions in the cave were of his charges being tortured--Hogwarts students, that is. He did speak of "them," in the plural after all. Who else would Dumbledore care that much about?

And I really don't buy the "Harry as Horcrux" theory. Slughorn explained the Horcrux process as beginning with a murder which shreds the soul and then involves another seperate spell to encase the fragment of soul in the chosen object. Casting AK on Harry AND failing to complete the actual murder doesn't add up to making Harry into a Horcrux.

Besides, I think it was Dumbledore who said that only when the other six Horcruxes are destroyed will Voldemort become mortal again. I really don't see how Harry can destroy a Horcrux within him without comitting suicide. And that would be a REALLY lousy way to end the series. Dumbledore can heroically sacrifice himself, he's that brand of character--but it'd be a bit over-blown for Harry to do that.

Oh, I think we will see Dumbledore again, in a matter of speaking. In The Interview, JKR said that Dumbledore's family would be an interesting line of inquiry and there's that business of us not being properly introduced to a remaining member of the Order. What about dear brother Aberforth Dumbledore?

And lastly, RAB's gotta be Regulus Black. We need some of the Horcruxes to already be destroyed or Book Seven is going to be over a thousand pages. It would take a lot of print to go through the process of finding that many objects. It took several chapters to lead up to finding just one. Personally, I think Harry's going to take over the Order and the Black home and start dispatching Order members in groups to hunt down and destroy the Horcruxes.

[Tanooki]

And I really don't buy the "Harry as Horcrux" theory. Slughorn explained the Horcrux process as beginning with a murder which shreds the soul and then involves another seperate spell to encase the fragment of soul in the chosen object. Casting AK on Harry AND failing to complete the actual murder doesn't add up to making Harry into a Horcrux.

Besides, I think it was Dumbledore who said that only when the other six Horcruxes are destroyed will Voldemort become mortal again. I really don't see how Harry can destroy a Horcrux within him without comitting suicide. And that would be a REALLY lousy way to end the series. Dumbledore can heroically sacrifice himself, he's that brand of character--but it'd be a bit over-blown for Harry to do that.true. destroying the other six horcruxes will make voldemort mortal again, but that doesn't mean harry has to destroy himself before he destroys voldemort. the way my friend and i see it, harry realizes after fruitless searching that he is the final horcrux (because it's been said that when voldemort attacked harry that he put a little bit of his power into harry) and the only way to take voldemort down will be to do away with himself and voldemort at once. but, as my friend and i discussed, rowling will make it so the power of love keeps harry alive after all the dust clears

[Mike Spartz]

I've just found something that looks very interesting. It's an editorial theorizing why Dumbledore DIDN'T DIE in Half-Blood Prince. Read it here (http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/dumbledoreclues.html).

And I know we've discussed this to death already, but for those who are interested there's also an editorial on Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. Read it here (http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/snapeclues.html).

[Sharklady]

> And lastly, RAB's gotta be Regulus Black. We need some of the Horcruxes to already be destroyed or Book Seven is going to be over a thousand pages. <

We know the ring and diary are no longer Horcruxes, and it's possible the locket Regulus Black (apparently) stole has already been located, if not identified (remember the "large locket, which none of them could open", that was found in Sirius' house?)

That leaves four. Dumbledore has theorized they are: the cup owned by Helga Hufflepuff, something of Ravenclaw's, something of Griffindor's, and the snake Nagini. And also theorized the Horcruxes are stashed in places which are of special significance to Voldemort (which could include Godrics Hollow- I wonder if Harry will stumble upon something when he makes his visit there?)

BTW: it seems at least one of those unidentified Horcruxes has been mentioned- JKR said (in the aforementioned Leaky Cauldron interview) that fans who carefully re-read 'Half Blood Prince' may be able to figure out what it is.


Re the above article Spontanious Mike posted a link to (and Thanx!): I read it and found this item particularly intriguing:

> IMPORTANT REVELATION! We've just learned, and can confirm, that the UK edition of HBP does NOT include the line "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." Did J.K. include that line originally, and then decide she had gone too far and made the clue too transparent and obvious? Is it possible she decided to remove it, but the line got accidentally included in the American edition anyway? <

Well, the UK fandom is certainly gonna find out about that line now!

If this report is true, I'd say it's the strongest evidence to date that JKR isn't quite through with Dumbledore.

[TnAdct1]

We know the ring and diary are no longer Horcruxes, and it's possible the locket Regulus Black (apparently) stole has already been located, if not identified (remember the "large locket, which none of them could open", that was found in Sirius' house?)

That leaves four. Dumbledore has theorized they are: the cup owned by Helga Hufflepuff, something of Ravenclaw's, something of Griffindor's, and the snake Nagini. Actually, there's only three left, as you forgot about Tom Riddle's diary (with its use as a Horcrux already being stopped by Harry in the Chamber of Secrets). The "something of Ravenclaw's" and "something of Gryffindor's" are actually the two things that that Harry and Dumbledore are theorizing is the last Horcrux (my guess is that it's going to be something of Ravenclaw's, as the Gryffindor item, the sword, is safe at Hogwarts).

[Sharklady]

> Actually, there's only three left, as you forgot about Tom Riddle's diary... <

I was refering to that when I said "We know the ring and diary are no longer Horcruxes."

That revelation- that when Harry stabbed that diary he actually eliminated a piece of Voldemort's soul- makes me wonder: what other events in the first five books are going to turn out to be far more significant than we currently suspect?

Another item I wonder about: just what was Malfoy up to when Harry caught him conversing with Moaning Myrtle in the bathroom? Malfoy's violent response suggests it must've been something importaint.
How long will it be, before it occurs to someone to ask Moaning Myrtle about that?

[Stewie]

There are, presumably, four horcruxes left. Out of seven, two have been destroyed, and one is in Voldemort himself.
The remaining 4 could be among the Locket, the Hufflepuff cup, Nagini, something Ravenclaw, and something Gryffindor. Or something/someone else.

Of course, there may not actually be seven, but this is one of those "trust Dumbledore" moments that it doesn't make sense to argue against.

I'm going to bet (based on no evidence) that there is no Gryffindor horcrux. It can't be the sword. And it would be great if his inability to obtain a Gryffindor heirloom for evil purposes was one of Voldemort's failures.


That revelation- that when Harry stabbed that diary he actually eliminated a piece of Voldemort's soul- makes me wonder: what other events in the first five books are going to turn out to be far more significant than we currently suspect?That's one of the things I love about this book (and the series in general). The further we get, the better the previous books get. Before this, Book 2 was meaningless to me. It was just a kiddie adventure. Rowling always says the early ones are important, but they aren't much good until we find things out later.


Another item I wonder about: just what was Malfoy up to when Harry caught him conversing with Moaning Myrtle in the bathroom? Malfoy's violent response suggests it must've been something importaint.Showing weakness.
And the fact that Harry was just sneaking up on him. He may have thought Harry overheard some useful intelligence, or just instinctively attacked his enemy.

[Spastic Minnow]

The horcruxes are probably


Riddle Diary (destoyed)
Gaunt Ring (destroyed)
Gaunt/Slytherin Locket (destoryed, at Grimmauld Place or sold off by Mudungus)
Hufflepuff Cup
Something of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor (there's a theory it is the wand from Ollivander's window)
Nagini
Voldemort himself
(8). Harry's scar, not Harry himself and not a proper horcrux but the unintentional byproduct of trying and failing to create a horcrux. I think there is one final miniscule part of Lord Voldemort's soul stuck on the scar and that is what gives Harry the connection to him. Remove the scar, remove that bit of soul. Although Bladesong's excellent point about the separate spell to create the horcrux may disprove this.

The question should also be asked what object LV was planning to use as a horcrux when he killed Harry. It's my theory that LV did have a relic of Gryffindor and it was destroyed in the attempt... could the object have been in the shape of a lightning bolt? Yes, Dumbledore said there weren't any other known Gryffindor relics other than the sword, but notice the word known, Dumbledore might not have known of it, or he knew about the one LV did have but also knew it was destroyed that night and therefore discounted it.


-Regulus as RAB.
Over at the COS forums I proposed an interesting theory about Regulus's possible motive for wanting to take down LV, but of course it was buried quickly and fogotten. That forum is so frustrating. So, my theory. In the note RAB writes: I found out your secret. Regulus was young, reckless and a proud member of the Black family and what does the Black family value over everything else? What if the "secret" RAB found wasn't the secret of the horcrux but the secret of Voldemort only a half-blood wizard? If it were Regulus that found out about this it would have enraged his inbred pride of pureblood wizardry and this is why Regulus would become a traitor to Voldemort, find the horcrux and try to destroy it.

[Bladesong26]

Of course, there may not actually be seven, but this is one of those "trust Dumbledore" moments that it doesn't make sense to argue against.



We've got better evidence than that--Tom Riddle himself suggested the idea of having seven Horcruxes to Slughorn in the completed memory, seven being the most powerful magic number. That's what Dumbledore based his speculation off of.

I also don't think that the Gryffindor sword is a Horcrux, but what about the Sorting Hat? Didn't that belong to Gryffindor as well? I might have to check my facts on that... My sister-in-law theorized that when Harry sees Voldemort's hand flick toward his wand in the Job Interview memory, that he was creating a Horcrux (assuming that the Hat was sitting in its usual place in the office), but I think Dumbledore would've noticied a spell that powerful happening right in front of him. Or maybe that was the gesture that cursed the DADA position.

Minnow, I think that gives Regulus a good motivation for destroying the Horcrux, but I'm not so concerned about that as much as whether he actually did the deed. :)

[Sharklady]

> We've got better evidence than that--Tom Riddle himself suggested the idea of having seven Horcruxes to Slughorn in the completed memory, seven being the most powerful magic number. That's what Dumbledore based his speculation off of. <

I don't really think the following scenario is likely, but it would be just the sort of curve JKR likes to throw:

Maybe Voldemort, knowing that Slughorn knew he'd talked about seven Horcruxes, has actually made eight (or more.) In which case there could be a scene in Book Seven where Harry & Co., having destroyed six Horcruxes, confidently close in to finish off Voldemort... only to have him laugh in their faces, and inform them that they didn't get 'em all.

And maybe that's when Dumbledore would make his dramatic reappearance and destroy the remaining Horcruxe(s).
Or perhaps Snape would do the honors.

[Spastic Minnow]

I also don't think that the Gryffindor sword is a Horcrux, but what about the Sorting Hat? Didn't that belong to Gryffindor as well? I might have to check my facts on that... My sister-in-law theorized that when Harry sees Voldemort's hand flick toward his wand in the Job Interview memory, that he was creating a Horcrux (assuming that the Hat was sitting in its usual place in the office), but I think Dumbledore would've noticied a spell that powerful happening right in front of him. Or maybe that was the gesture that cursed the DADA position.While it evidently takes a couple steps to make a horcrux I think it still makes sense that you'd have to seal your separated soul fragment into a horcrux immediately after killing the person that caused it to fragment. If my assumption is correct than VOldemort would have had to killed someone with the hat or sword close by. The hat only leaves the haeadmaster's office for sorting so I don't see how it could be horcrux. We're not really sure where the sword was before Harry took it out of the hat but I just basically doubt it's one on principle.

Really, if we are to believe Dumbledore there's only one horcrux we don't know the identity of, a relic of Gryffindor OR Ravenclaw. I think it has to be a Ravenclaw item just because of the fact that Ravenclaw has never been given a proper spotlight in any of the books (Hufflepuff had Cedric) and I think that's going to be a minor theme of the last one.

As for Voldemort's movement towards his wand I'm going to take it as what it seems to be- evidence that DUmbledore was the only wizard that VOldemort was afraid to confront.

[Fone Bone]

I've just found something that looks very interesting. It's an editorial theorizing why Dumbledore DIDN'T DIE in Half-Blood Prince. Read it here (http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/dumbledoreclues.html).

And I know we've discussed this to death already, but for those who are interested there's also an editorial on Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. Read it here (http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/snapeclues.html).These are interesting theories but then I remember that I have NEVER, not once been correct in ANY Harry Potter predictions EVER and I don't think anyone else has either. Is there a significant part of the interent populace who saw Snape's betrayal and Dumbledore dying in book six? We always have theories but I have to remember that J.K. Rowling NEVER fails to dash them all.

[the Amanda]

These are interesting theories but then I remember that I have NEVER, not once been correct in ANY Harry Potter predictions EVER and I don't think anyone else has either. Is there a significant part of the interent populace who saw Snape's betrayal and Dumbledore dying in book six? We always have theories but I have to remember that J.K. Rowling NEVER fails to dash them all.

Of course some people were correct in Harry Potter predictions. I was certain Dumbledore was dying in Book Six well before it was finished, and so were most of the people I knew. The Snape thing did come out of nowhere though.

[Fone Bone]

Of course some people were correct in Harry Potter predictions. I was certain Dumbledore was dying in Book Six well before it was finished, and so were most of the people I knew. The Snape thing did come out of nowhere though.What other predictions have people made that came true? What are some that were completely wrong? I'm very curious.

Also, what were the clues that Dumbledore would die in book six?

[Spastic Minnow]

I don't feel like working, so time to review my Book 6 predictions http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=144456

I've been wanting to do it for awhile.

More than half of my predictions were wrong. The stuff I and most others got right was pretty general but technically correct. It's not like anyone could have predicted Horcruxes but in retrospect it seems like there should have been more speculation about why Voldemort didn't die. In interviews JKR gave big hints that that would be very important but I don't remember anyone pouncing on that as a probable main theme.

The most common correct predictions were from the romance shippers. But I feel calling the Hermione/Ron and Harry/Ginny pairings should have been obvious, in particular the set-up for Ron and Hermione was glaringly obvious. Personally I hold a little pride in saying how Ron would make Hermione jealous by going out with someone else but got details of who and how wrong (I thought he'd halfheartedly go out with Luna). I did suspect that Ron wouldn't be able to properly break up with a girl but I didn't say that here so no "I told you so" there.

I and a number of others predicted that Snape would become DADA professor in this one.

As Mike said before, many of us predicted the death of Dumbledore, independently and without any supposed spoilers.

Many of us called Harry being Quidditch captain.

A unique half-prediction of mine: I downplayed what Harry would get for his birthday but emphasized that we've never seen what Ron or Hermione have gotten for their birthdays, and sure enough Ron's birthday was pretty important in this one.

[the Amanda]

What other predictions have people made that came true? What are some that were completely wrong? I'm very curious.

Also, what were the clues that Dumbledore would die in book six?
Some things that I got right: Dumbledore died, Ron & Hermione, Ron and Hermione making each other jealous

Some things I got completely wrong: Snape betrayal, Harry & Ginny (I was hoping for Harry & Luna), diminished role of minor characters, Tonks & Lupin (who the hell could've called that one?)

There were quite a few people who thought Harry and Ginny would get together, and some predicted a Snape betrayal.

The evidence that Dumbledore was going to die was simple needs of dramatic narrative. The teacher figure often bites the dust in these sorts of stories (think Obi-Wan Kenobi) to raise the stakes, force the student to stand on his own, and often provide a motivation for revenge or whatever. Dumbledore's speech about how "death is just the next big adventure" was what really made me think he was going to die, because he does not fear death and would gladly sacrifice himself for the Order (whether he actually did sacrifice himself for the Order hinges on Snape's current loyalties, of course). His Patronus and pet is a Phoenix, the symbol of death and rebirth, the perfect symbol for a character who will die but still live on in spirit/memory.

[Stewie]

Something of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor (there's a theory it is the wand from Ollivander's window)What wand is this? Is it from Book One?


So, my theory. In the note RAB writes: I found out your secret. Regulus was young, reckless and a proud member of the Black family and what does the Black family value over everything else? What if the "secret" RAB found wasn't the secret of the horcrux but the secret of Voldemort only a half-blood wizard? If it were Regulus that found out about this it would have enraged his inbred pride of pureblood wizardry and this is why Regulus would become a traitor to Voldemort, find the horcrux and try to destroy it.I figured it's more out of spite than blood. Regulus saw he was never going to be one of Voldemort's close servants and as such would never be all that powerful.
And since he didn't have the guts to be a full-on Death Eaters (as Sirius said), he knew he was going to die. Thus, rather than let someone else get all the glory, he tried to stick it to him before he got taken down.

[BrendaBat]

When I was reading the book, some words I didn’t understand popped up. They weren’t in the dictionary; so I’m assuming they’re British slang. Could one of you British TZ members help me out and tell me if you know what copse and shufti mean? I’d really appreciate it.
I’m glad that the US distributors of the Harry Potter books decided to stop Americanizing the dialogue. However, I do wish that the American distributors would include a glossary of British slang somewhere in the books! I didn’t have much trouble when reading “The Half Blood Prince”. But reading “The Order of the Phoenix” was a chore because I had a hard time figuring out the British slang (it took me about 10 chapters to figure out what a “row” was and I STILL don’t know what the hell “wotcher” means!).

On to my review:
-I had a feeling that Dumbledore was going to die because the fact that he was so physically frail from the beginning of this book felt like foreshadowing. I wasn’t surprised when he died, but Snape being the murderer TOTALLY threw me.
As for the Snape argument; I think it can still go either way. But I’m personally inclined to believe that he’s on the side of good (especially after reading the opinions of everyone here).
-I was really disappointed by the way JKR handled the Harry/Ginny romance. At times I felt like I was reading a bad, shippy fan-fic! Harry has shown little to no romantic interest in Ginny since the events in the Chamber of Secrets and then, all of the sudden, he starts having naughty dreams about her in Book 6!? Geez, Harry’s relationship with Cho was handled better! Sure Harry/Cho was doomed from the start but at least they had a few moments alone before they started snogging each other!
Of coarse, my bitterness may be due to the fact that I think Luna would have been a cooler and more interesting love interest than boring, predictable Ginny “fan fiction goddess” Weasley.
Oh well, at least Luna fans got that party scene and the cool Quiddich commentary. I guess that’s better than nothing. I hope Hogwarts stays open in the next book just so Luna can continue her job as a Quiddich commentator. :D

-I wish that JKR had included more moments with the minor characters (mainly Neville, Luna, and the rest of Dumbledore’s Army). Neville and Luna played HUGE roles at the end of OotP and it bothered me that they got so little attention in this book. I would have liked to see how Luna and Neville’s friendship developed (since they were together at Dumbledore’s funeral, I assume they’re pretty close by now).

[Sharklady]

> -I wish that JKR had included more moments with the minor characters (mainly Neville, Luna, and the rest of Dumbledore’s Army). <

At the risk of being totally wrong, I hereby predict that Neville Longbottom is going to have a very important part to play in Book Seven. From the start, I've had the impression he's the 'ugly duckling' character; the one who turns out to be so much more than he first appears. And the saga's final events are the best stage for him to finally show it.

BTW: I had also expected Dumbledore to die in either Book Six or Seven. That's the classic pattern in these stories; the wise old teacher prepares the Hero to fight the Villain, then steps aside (one way or the other) so the Hero will have to fulfill his destiny on his own.

[Spastic Minnow]

What wand is this? Is it from Book One?

Yeah, it was probably only mentioned in book one, maybe briefly at another time but the description seems special. When Harry goes to Olivander's shop it's mentioned how different his shop is, all that is on display in his window is a single wand laid on a faded pillow. It may be nothing but you have to admit Ollivander disapearing is strange.

[Bladesong26]

tell me if you know what copse and shufti mean?

"Copse" actually isn't slang, it's just a little used word for a stand of trees. "Shufti" I haven't a clue about.


I hope Hogwarts stays open in the next book just so Luna can continue her job as a Quiddich commentator. :D


Oh, but a closed, deserted Hogwarts would make such a great setting for the Final Showdown! Harry and Co. sneaking through the deserted corridors and classrooms would make for some good drama and instant ambience. And Voldemort seems to be really stuck on the place...

[Mike Spartz]

I was really disappointed by the way JKR handled the Harry/Ginny romance. At times I felt like I was reading a bad, shippy fan-fic! Harry has shown little to no romantic interest in Ginny since the events in the Chamber of Secrets and then, all of the sudden, he starts having naughty dreams about her in Book 6!? Geez, Harry’s relationship with Cho was handled better! Harry's always had feelings for Ginny that he didn't know about. She was friend to him for many years and it was only natural that they'd become very close to one another. Part of the reason why he felt so angry when Dean was dating her was because he was feeling protective of her. Moreover, I believe that Ginny encouraged Harry's interest in her by shedding her shyness around him and becoming more bold. Harry, on the other hand, had just gotten out of a disasterous relationship with Cho and was probably looking for a more balanced girl. In Ginny he saw a someone who seemed to like him for who he was and not what others had said about him, in Ginny he knew that he'd found someone he actually liked, and in Ginny he was impressed by her bravery. It seems to make perfect sense to me that these two would get together eventually. I am not in any way, shape, or form a H/G shipper, I'm just stating why I think the relationship was destined to happen in canon.

About my predictions....

I correctly predicted that Felix Felicis was a luck potion
I correctly predicted that Harry would beat Hermione with an 'O' in DADA
I correctly predicted (after careful re-consideration) that Harry would be made Quidditch Captian
I correctly predicted that Harry would take NEWT potions but I didn't know how he'd manage the task.
I correctly predicted that Dumbledore will 'die'
I was half right about the ships. I knew that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny were a lock but I mess up on the dates and kisses.
I correctly predicted that there would be around 30 or so chapters to the book
I was half right about the apphration tests. I was right about Hermione getting her liscene but wrong about Ron.
everything else I pretty much got wrong. I completely messed up on the new DADA teacher question and I didn't know who was the Half-Blood prince.

[Spastic Minnow]

. I hope Hogwarts stays open in the next book just so Luna can continue her job as a Quiddich commentator.
According to JKR in the Mugglenet Leaky Cauldron interview there will be NO quidditch in the last book. She's never really liked writing it and I have to agree that results of quiddich matches would have no import on the next book... Unless of course the Order challenges the Death Eaters to a match. :D

But she does admit that writing Luna's commentary for the match was one of her favorite parts of the book.

[Elven Moon]

It was OK, but I feel kind of empty about it.

Dumbledore's death was a shock, and I'm sad. Snape... well, I figured it would be Neville or something. Not him. And I'm not too happy with him for what he did. Angry, even.

As for all the angsty dating capades, I found them rather annoying, but I can look past them.

[purplehairedwonder]

Unless of course the Order challenges the Death Eaters to a match. :DYu-Gi-Oh! take-off anyone? Instead of "Let's duel!" we'd have "Let's fly!":p


At the risk of being totally wrong, I hereby predict that Neville Longbottom is going to have a very important part to play in Book Seven. From the start, I've had the impression he's the 'ugly duckling' character; the one who turns out to be so much more than he first appears. And the saga's final events are the best stage for him to finally show it.I've been predicting this for awhile now. In some way, shape, or form, I think Neville might hold the key to defeating Voldemort. I think the fact that none of the more minor characters (D.A. for example) got much time was because we're being set up for them playing a major role in the final book. I also think the fact that Neville and Luna were the only D.A. members to come when their coins summoned them is foreshadowing some importance for them in the future.


Oh, but a closed, deserted Hogwarts would make such a great setting for the Final Showdown! Harry and Co. sneaking through the deserted corridors and classrooms would make for some good drama and instant ambience. And Voldemort seems to be really stuck on the place...That would look really cool in the movie too:p I have to think that Hogwarts will stay open. Dumbledore would have wanted it that way. Besides, the fact that Voldemort is so stuck on Hogwarts makes it that much more important for it to stay open. If it were to close, it would show a sign of faltering by the Order and the "light" if you will. Keeping it open would serve to show that Hogwarts is not afraid of Voldemort while closing would show the opposite. Another great place for the final showdown would be the ruins of Godric's Hollow. Where it all began (Voldemort's downfall and Harry's destiny) to where it ends; going full circle.

[the Amanda]

I think that there is something important with Neville's parents' gum wrappers.

Seriously.

[Stewie]

Yeah, it was probably only mentioned in book one, maybe briefly at another time but the description seems special. When Harry goes to Olivander's shop it's mentioned how different his shop is, all that is on display in his window is a single wand laid on a faded pillow. It may be nothing but you have to admit Ollivander disapearing is strange.When did Harry go into the shop for a second time?
Yes, Ollivander seems like he's played too important a role in everything that's happened for his disappearance to not be important.
Rowling has said in the past that Lily's wand was good for charms, and that this is important. Ollivander made that for her, and he made Voldemort and Harry's wands. I think he's bound to have a role in all this.


I think that there is something important with Neville's parents' gum wrappers.

Seriously.Rowling said in the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview that there is no special meaning to those. It's more personal for Neville.

[Sharklady]

> Rowling said in the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview that there is no special meaning to those. It's more personal for Neville. <

And it's based on a true story. A rather sad one.

Here is a link to the transcript of the entire interview. It's rather long but well worth reading; JKR clears up a number of small misconceptions while giving away *nothing* about the Big Questions:

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml

We also learn JKR 'loves' a certain cartoon character- you may be surprised to learn who.

[TnAdct1]

We also learn JKR 'loves' a certain cartoon character- you may be surprised to learn who.

So, I've taken it that she gladly accepted the chance to cameo in the episode of the Simpsons where she went to the UK. :anime:

[the Amanda]

When did Harry go into the shop for a second time?
Yes, Ollivander seems like he's played too important a role in everything that's happened for his disappearance to not be important.
Rowling has said in the past that Lily's wand was good for charms, and that this is important. Ollivander made that for her, and he made Voldemort and Harry's wands. I think he's bound to have a role in all this.
I agree. I think Ollivander is a cool character. I also think it stuck out to me that while JK was killing minor characters (like Ministry members and shopkeepers) right and left in this book, she makes it a point to note that Ollivander disappeared but is not known to be dead. So why would the Death Eaters abduct Ollivander? If it were just about the wand in the window, they probably would have killed Ollivander outright and stolen the wand.


Rowling said in the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview that there is no special meaning to those. It's more personal for Neville.
Really? I'll have to read that when I get a chance. There goes my theory!

[Stewie]

Really? I'll have to read that when I get a chance. There goes my theory!Yeah. It's a really sweet little idea. Just one more reason to pity/like Neville.

[Sharklady]

> tell me if you know what... shufti mean(s)? <

Here's the definition I got from an online dictionary:

1. Shufti - a quick look around (originally military slang); "Take a shufti while you're out there."

And some info from the 'World of Words' site:

'Shufti' is Arabic. In that language it means “have you seen?”. It’s a bit of military slang, picked up by British servicemen formerly based in the Middle East. The first recorded examples in print are from the Second World War, suggesting that it may have originated among soldiers in the desert campaign.

[Spastic Minnow]

I agree. I think Ollivander is a cool character. I also think it stuck out to me that while JK was killing minor characters (like Ministry members and shopkeepers) right and left in this book, she makes it a point to note that Ollivander disappeared but is not known to be dead. So why would the Death Eaters abduct Ollivander? If it were just about the wand in the window, they probably would have killed Ollivander outright and stolen the wand.

or for that matter, why abduct the owner of a ice cream shop? They said he was apparently dragged away but they make no mention of a Dark Mark in the sky. There might be something strange going on there. Zonko's Joke shop was gone too but it's quite possible that Fred and George just put him out of business.



Really? I'll have to read that when I get a chance. There goes my theory!Oh, you weren't the only one thinking there was something up with the candy wrappers. There was an editorial at Mugglenet that went into detail on that, proposing that "Spinners End" was going to be about the candy. Good theory too. At JKR's site she used to have (still has?) a little game spinner you twirl to get to another section of the site, at times it pointed to candy wrappers and brought you to the "Rubbish Bin" section which was the only other section of the site that had candy wrappers in it.

[Stewie]

Zonko's Joke shop was gone too but it's quite possible that Fred and George just put him out of business.I thought the implication was that Zonko's shut down for safety reasons. Not that they were abducted.

[the Amanda]

Oh, you weren't the only one thinking there was something up with the candy wrappers. There was an editorial at Mugglenet that went into detail on that, proposing that "Spinners End" was going to be about the candy. Good theory too. At JKR's site she used to have (still has?) a little game spinner you twirl to get to another section of the site, at times it pointed to candy wrappers and brought you to the "Rubbish Bin" section which was the only other section of the site that had candy wrappers in it.
Right, it was actually the Rubbish Bin that got me thinking about the wrappers in the first place.

[Tanooki]

i forgot to mention the one part of half-blood prince that freaked me out more than any other part. it was when fudge (i think it was fudge who said it) said that the dementors were BREEDING! gross and scary at the same time! :eek:

how exactly does a dementor breed? sp. mike? do you know?

[purplehairedwonder]

it was when fudge (i think it was fudge who said it) said that the dementors were BREEDING! gross and scary at the same time! :eek:

how exactly does a dementor breed?I had totally forgotten about that, but that was definitely creepy. I have to wonder if they breed by draining enough happiness out of enough people or sucking a certain amount of souls. With the dementors not under Ministry control anymore, they've been on the lose doing as they please.

[Hurricane V1]

So many questions I want answered now, but have to wait for the final book. The question I want answered the most is, what did that green potion do to Dumbledore? What did his tortured begging mean?

[Fone Bone]

So many questions I want answered now, but have to wait for the final book. The question I want answered the most is, what did that green potion do to Dumbledore? What did his tortured begging mean?I don't know but I hope we find out in the last book. While I'm pretty sure Dumbledore died I have to agree with others who believe this isn't the last we'll see of him unlike Sirius.

I actually liked the way they handled Sirius' death in this book. From what I gathered from reading the comments in this thread people believe Harry got over Sirius too quickly but I have to say I disagree. His not wanting to talk about it and keeping his mind elsewhere is a perfectly normal reaction to death. I think the scene where he shoves Mundungus against a building shows that Sirius' death DID effect him a great deal.

[Azrael24]

my friend and i were talking and he said that he read on a forum that R.A.B. stood for Regulus and A(forget the name but its tonks's mom's name) Black. because to get the locket out you have to have more than one person so its probably regulus and tonks mom, i forget her name but he said it started with an A, i'll have to go look it up.

[WrenchNinja]

my friend and i were talking and he said that he read on a forum that R.A.B. stood for Regulus and A(forget the name but its tonks's mom's name) Black. because to get the locket out you have to have more than one person so its probably regulus and tonks mom, i forget her name but he said it started with an A, i'll have to go look it up.Andromeda Tonks?

[Scirel]

I just wanna say that Luna is my favorite charachter, she`s so cool. ^_^;;

Also, I hope that the "ministry group"(Ron, herm, Luna, neville) does indeed come with Harry on the search. It would be a bit lonely with just him.

Also, one interesting thing I`m thinking of is that the locket may be a guide to where the other horcruxes are, or clues or a manner of detecting them.

Another theory which doesn`t go with the other one is that the locket is a horcrux, and he will find out how to destroy one using that one as "practice" or something.

[Azrael24]

Andromeda Tonks?
yeah!! thats it, so R.A.B. could stand for Regulus and Andromeda Black. her maiden name is black, and in other countries women use their maiden names more than their husband's last name so its a possibility.

[Raissa]

Check out this lj thread:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/hraefn/64498.html

[Phantasm]

That is an interesting theory.

[Fone Bone]

Check out this lj thread:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/hraefn/64498.html (http://www.livejournal.com/users/hraefn/64498.html)
That is the greatest theory ever. It also explains why he went so nuts when Harry looked into his Pensieve. He was belittling Lily the woman he loved who was the ONLY thing from his past he didn't use against Harry. Excellent!

[the Amanda]

I've read the Snape-Lily theory before and it holds quite a bit of merit. It's even possible that Snape's (probably unrequited) love for Lily was the actual thing that made Dumbledore trust Snape (I really don't buy that Dumbledore trusted Snape just because he said he was over the Death Eater thing, especially when contrasted with Dumbledore denying Voldemort a teaching position). Snape would stay on the side of good and protect Harry to honor Lily. Even if you think Snape was evil and defying the Order (I'm not in this camp), this theory could still explain why Snape saves Harry so often (including at the end of HBP) despite his affiliation with Voldemort.

I've also heard some interesting Lupin/Lily theories, but I think that the Lupin/Sirius theories have more evidence and are more interesting. In fact, when reading the end of HBP I had to wonder if the Lupin/Tonks pairing, which felt sort of tacked-on to the book, was put there specifically to discourage proponents of Lupin/Sirius...

[purplehairedwonder]

I don't know. Even though the theory had some good points, I still have a hard time buying the Lily/Snape thing. It just seems a little too... awkward for my tastes. But I guess my tastes aren't important here.


In fact, when reading the end of HBP I had to wonder if the Lupin/Tonks pairing, which felt sort of tacked-on to the book, was put there specifically to discourage proponents of Lupin/Sirius...You have to wonder. I've never been able to see any of the Marauders being more than like brothers to each other anyway.

[Azrael24]

thats was an excellent read!! it does make a lot of sence. i got a lot of stuff out of it and i thought of stuff my self but ive suffered from short term memory loss:p

[Raissa]

Check out this editorial:
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-bwoell01.shtml

[Wounded_Dragon]

Check out this editorial:
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-bwoell01.shtml
Well, I think the Snape defenders just hit the bottom of the barrel. Really, that editorial takes a lot of flying leaps. It heavily relies on the reader assuming everything that takes place off scene, so to speak, in the most favorable light for Snape. And relying on one of the most disgusting deus ex machinas I've read in a while is just...ugh.

It also goes with the assumption that anything Snape does that benefits the side of Light proves that he is good. If an armed bank robber kills a serial killer, does that make the armed bank robber good?