"Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Fone Bone]

Well, I think the Snape defenders just hit the bottom of the barrel. Really, that editorial takes a lot of flying leaps. It heavily relies on the reader assuming everything that takes place off scene, so to speak, in the most favorable light for Snape. And relying on one of the most disgusting deus ex machinas I've read in a while is just...ugh.

It also goes with the assumption that anything Snape does that benefits the side of Light proves that he is good. If an armed bank robber kills a serial killer, does that make the armed bank robber good?I think it could go either way at this point although all clues point to Rowling making Snape "good". These clues could all be red herrings on Rowling's part to make Snape look even worse if he remains evil in the last book. I'm still a little puzzled by your insistance that Snape is a bad guy. Do all good guys have to be nice and lovable for you? Isn't a "good guy" who is a nasty person interesting? Are you so angry about people speculating about this because you've always believed Snape was no good and it's frustrating that people still aren't convinced? I can understand this, but please keep in mind that many people were holding onto the hope that Snape was "good" and feel the same way about his innocence. I don't think the theories are hurting anybody and there IS a huge chance they are all wrong. What's the harm in speculating? Won't you be even more vindicated in the end if they are all wrong? I'll be the first to say you were right and I'm a chowderhead if Snape turns out to be evil in book seven. But in the meantime would you mind terribly letting me have some fun? I promise I won't be TOO annoying. Deal?:D

[Wounded_Dragon]

Yes it is frustrating. It seems like the meaner Snape becomes, the more people insist that he's good. The man has never done anything that couldn't be labeled as self-serving. We've never seen him be good solely because it's the right thing to do, but somehow that's just more evidence he's good.

There's a difference between creating a character who is good but acts mean, and just mean and nasty. Snape falls into the latter. Snape had his chance to show his "good" side in OotP, in the private Occulmency lessons. He failed, miserably. The hints everyone points to are the equivalent of noticing the pink gloves in Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. There's almost nothing in Snape's character development that justifies him being called good. And he just "blew away" a good chunk of what was there.

I've seen wilder and wilder justifications for his atrocious behavior and it's gotten very tiring and disconcerting to read them all.

And no, the feeling of vindication if he "stays evil" till the end won't console me, because it won't negate the fact he was perceived and defended as good right to the bitter end. It would only make me sadder, as I know Snape fans would find some way to twist what happened, some wild theory to show Snape is truly good. I mean, good gosh, Felix Felicis was a horrible idea to start with. Using it as proof in a tenuous theory? Not good.


Oh, and Fone? Your theories aren't that annoying. :D Although I wouldn't put that much stock in the Snape loved Lily theory. If he truly loved her, he couldn't hate anything that came from her, even if it was also from his worst enemy. But he does. Unless of course you subscribe to a very narrow and very selfish definition of love. Which kinda seems like par for the course in the HP books...

[BrendaBat]

Check out this lj thread:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/hraefn/64498.html
I think that all the flower symbolism in that essay was grasping at straws (especially those lame poems about the "magesty of the asphodel/lily" and the "bitterness of the wormwood").

But I agree with the Snape/Lily theory. It would explain why Snape has never used Lily's memory to hurt Harry and it could be one of the big reasons Dumbledore trusted Snape so much.


Well, I think the Snape defenders just hit the bottom of the barrel. Really, that editorial takes a lot of flying leaps. It heavily relies on the reader assuming everything that takes place off scene, so to speak, in the most favorable light for Snape. And relying on one of the most disgusting deus ex machinas I've read in a while is just...ugh.

It also goes with the assumption that anything Snape does that benefits the side of Light proves that he is good. If an armed bank robber kills a serial killer, does that make the armed bank robber good?
Yeah, the Snape fangirls are horrible, irratating little maniacs. However, not every "Snape is good" proponent is like that. Most of us assume Snape is good because a lot of evidence in the books (plus Rowlings love of throwing twists at the reader) seem to point to that conclusion.

[Sharklady]

> Most of us assume Snape is good because a lot of evidence in the books (plus Rowlings love of throwing twists at the reader) seem to point to that conclusion. <

Oh, yes. *Never* underestimate how sneaky JKR can be! Book Seven may turn out to be a solid mass of twists.

I rather hope that after she's done with the HP books she'll take up writing murder mysteries.

[Mike Spartz]

Yes it is frustrating. It seems like the meaner Snape becomes, the more people insist that he's good.
There's a difference between creating a character who is good but acts mean, and just mean and nasty. Snape falls into the latter.I'm a Snape defender and I don't insist that he's good. I simply agrue that he is a very complex human being with a lot of depth behind him. There is no doubt in my mind that Snape is a very jealous and bitter man. He blatantly shows favorism toward his house and is cruel to the students that he hates. On the other hand, he did act as a spy for a Order of the Phenoix for an extended period of time, and he did diligently produce the wolfsbane potion for Lupin every full moon of Harry's third year. Snape may be a lot of things, but a coward he is not. He didn't have to remain loyal to Dumbledore, and he didn't have to heed to Lupins wishes and make the wolfsbane for him; but Snape did do those things and that's one of the reasons he is treated differently from a regular Death Eater.

Unlike people like Lucius Malfoy and Karkaroff, Snape seems to have some level of respect for authority and responsiblity. Let's not forget that Snape also withheld the information that Lupin was a werewolf until the last days of Lupin's term, when he could've revealed what he knew much earlier. So what does this all mean? Is Snape a misunderstood wizard who is really kind at heart, or is he the devil reincarnated? My guess is that he's neither. My impression of Snape is that he's a classic example of a person who serves no master but himself. He choose to help whomever benefits him the most. He's the true definition of a snake: clever, treacherous, and very very sneaky. Regarding Snape's role in book seven, the question shouldn't be whether or not he's good or bad, but which master's hand he'll bite first.


Snape had his chance to show his "good" side in OotP, in the private Occulmency lessons. He failed, miserably. This example isn't really fair. Snape and Harry have always shared a mutual dislike of one another. Snape was adamant about not wishing to share his knowledge of Occulmency with the boy who lived and Harry never pretended to like the lessons either. Therefore it's not fair to make Snape the bad guy in this scenario because Harry shares some of the blame too. Maybe if Harry tried a little harder with Snape the lessons would've continued and gotten better with time.


There's almost nothing in Snape's character development that justifies him being called good. As I've already mentioned in this post, Snape served the Order of the Phenoix as a double agent. He also made wolfsbane potion for Lupin when he didn't have too, and finally, he kept his mouth shut about Lupin's secret for most of Harry's third year. I'm not saying that these facts mean Snape is a good person, just that they add to his complexity.

[Raissa]

> Most of us assume Snape is good because a lot of evidence in the books (plus Rowlings love of throwing twists at the reader) seem to point to that conclusion. <

Oh, yes. *Never* underestimate how sneaky JKR can be! Book Seven may turn out to be a solid mass of twists.

I rather hope that after she's done with the HP books she'll take up writing murder mysteries.You're not the only one. Actually, she already has. It could be argued that PoA is a murder mystery.

[Raissa]

I've had another thought. I'm an English major; I enjoy speculation of this kind for its own sake, apart from being a fan. WD, you don't have to read this if you don't want to.:

DD went after the ring horcrux, and he was dying from exposure to the curse. Snape gave him a potion that arrested the process, but DD was living on borrowed time. He and Snape both knew it.

Apart from the plot and characterization elements that suggest this, there's also a thematic element. JKR could have introduced any number of hideous critters. Why did she chose inferi? I believe she was paralleling them with DD. Both DD and the inferi were being maintained artificially in relation to death. When certain criteria were met, both DD and the inferi would cease. Snape killed DD, because DD determined the criteria for his ceasing had been met, and he needed to become inert, like the inferi.

I also find it interesting that thematically DD and the inferi were both security measures. DD removed the inferi to get at the horcrux and maintain the security of the wizarding world, and Snape removed DD as part of a long-term plan to maintain the security of the wizarding world.

I personally believe DD asked Snape to remove him if it became necessary, because thematically DD asks Snape to maintain him artificially in relation to death in the first place. Therefore, it makes sense that DD would withdraw that request himslf, as well.

Assuming this is true, between the horcrux curse and the green goo he swallowed in the cave, it's a miracle DD lived long enough for Snape to kill him -- keeping the vow, maintaining his cover, and preventing Draco from becoming a murderer. Snape could make the vow in the first place, because DD had already asked him to protect Draco, and they both knew that DD was already dying. Still, it was an emotional trauma for Snape, which explains his freak out when Harry called him a coward.

[Raissa]

I think that all the flower symbolism in that essay was grasping at straws (especially those lame poems about the "magesty of the asphodel/lily" and the "bitterness of the wormwood").

Actually, JKR is known for heavy-handed symbolism tied to theme and characterization. She did research for five years to incorporate mythology and folklore (including plantlore) in the books. That's what makes me think there's merit to Wormwood and Asphodel. Two examples of what I mean:

Severus Snape:

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/snape.html#name (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/snape.html#name)



Remus Lupin:

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/lupin.html#name (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/lupin.html#name)

[Raissa]

The three questions Snape asks Harry when they first meet in chapter eight of Philosopher's Stone foreshadow Snape's loyalty. Check this out:

http://www.leakylounge.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=89&t=13759&st=500#entry382808

[Raissa]

Check out these HP Podcasts:

http://mugglenet.com/mugglecast/ (http://mugglenet.com/mugglecast/)

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/pottercast/index.html (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/pottercast/index.html)

[atf487]

Check out these HP Podcasts:

http://mugglenet.com/mugglecast/ (http://mugglenet.com/mugglecast/)

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/pottercast/index.html (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/pottercast/index.html)
mugglecast > pottercast.

atleast i think so. you only need one, anyway.

[Scirel]

I`m at the moment disgusted with the HP fandom to the point of diconnecting myself with it entirely. I used to think I knew what oversensitivity is. But some of these people (Ironically named Harmonians) take the cake.
"Waah! Harry and Hermionie didn`t do the nasty! I`m gonna freaking kill myself! JRK is a beeotch! How dare she dissagree with my idea of what couples go into HER OWN STORY. My fanfic is in charachter, it`s HER who is wiritng out of charachter!(This is actually a comment I`ve seen repeated and agreed with by many)"

There`s an entire "fan"-forum dedicated to now bashing jsut about every aspect of Harry Potter and JKR, basically calling anyone who dosen`t hate HBP unintelligent. It used to be a shippng forum.

My god. I will never, EVER make fun of otaku again. They(myself included) are crazy in a fun way. these people are freaking BLOODTHIRSTY.

[Sharklady]

^ 'Fans' like that aren't worth paying attention to.

[Azrael24]

i know, they all have issues

but i wanted to have harry and hermione hook up, but im not gonna die over it

[SevenMarx]

I just finished reading the Half Blood Prince and I have to say the ending is brutal. I kept hoping it would be different, that the next chapter would change everything, but no. It just ended. What will become of Harry Potter in the next book? I wonder what the title will be. What do you guys think?

[Humble]

The Half Blood Prince had to end that way to setup the events of the seventh book. Who wouldn't want to read the next book after that ending? As for me I'll leave the speculation for when I don't have to write papers. :p

On a side note, all the semi-spoilers(ie. someone's going to die) released to the public before the books came out put a damper on the fun of reading them. :shrug:
-Humble procrastinates for no good reason

[mikestorm]

This thread might be better placed in the Entertainment forum, however I actually liked the ending. Rowling reminds us it's her universe and she can do what she wants with it, and proves she will not cave to the wishes of fanmuggleism.

[Kury Wagner]

I kept hoping it would be different, that the next chapter would change everything, but no. It just ended. I know! You just didn't want to believe it, eh? I had even had the death revealed to me before I read it, but I still didn't want it end that way.

What do you guys think?Here's a link to the official TZ talkback (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=145494) to the book.

[SevenMarx]

I just decided the best way to stop being bummed out is to read the Goblet of Fire again. Which interesting enough would be the first time I ever reread a book. I hope I finish it before thworld premere on sunday.

[The Penguin]

Here's a link to the official TZ talkback (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=145494) to the book.And so merged.

[Mike Spartz]

I just finished reading the Half Blood Prince and I have to say the ending is brutal. I kept hoping it would be different, that the next chapter would change everything, but no. It just ended. What will become of Harry Potter in the next book? I wonder what the title will be. What do you guys think?The ending was unexpected but the big death was unsurprising. I didn't have to read the spoilers to know that Dumbledore was going to die. He needed too for Harry to step up and take control of his responsiblity. He couldn't hide behind DumbleDore and the walls of Hogwarts anymore. He was the boy who lived and it was time he took the fight to Voldie and not the other way around. If you thought this book was brutal then you should be weary of the next one because I promise you that it's going to be ten times more brutal. A lot more wizards and witches will die and although I'm in the minority here I think there's a possiblity that Harry himself will bite the dust.

[Humble]

I just hope the next book doesn't over do the brutalness you speak of Mike. :shrug:


And so merged.Blessed are the powers that be! :p
-Humble

[Sharklady]

> ...and although I'm in the minority here I think there's a possiblity that Harry himself will bite the dust. <

That rumor has been circulating for years, and JKR herself has made some statements that hint at the possibility. ("Why are (the fans) so sure Harry's going to grow up?")

On the other hand, she's also said things to the effect that she had, or was considering, changing her original planned ending. Which has fueled other rumors that she'd originally intended to kill Harry at the end, but reconsidered when the series got so popular & she realized what widespred heartbreak that would cause.

On the other hand, she could be throwing red herrings at us- she seems to really enjoy doing that. Evil woman!

*Dang*, I wish Book Seven was coming out sooner...

[Humble]

> ...and although I'm in the minority here I think there's a possiblity that Harry himself will bite the dust. <

That rumor has been circulating for years, and JKR herself has made some statements that hint at the possibility. ("Why are (the fans) so sure Harry's going to grow up?")

On the other hand, she's also said things to the effect that she had, or was considering, changing her original planned ending. Which has fueled other rumors that she'd originally intended to kill Harry at the end, but reconsidered when the series got so popular & she realized what widespred heartbreak that would cause.

On the other hand, maybe she's just thowing a red herring at us, as she's done so often before. I can't help but laugh at the idea of so many distraught fans. For some reason laughing at their grief comes to me easily(I'm going to burn for that one. :p ).

It's refreshing to find a writer who keeps you on your toes. CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!
-Humble

[King Cocopuff]

I bet Voldemort's cursing of the Defense Against the Dark Arts was his spitful was of saying:

Voldemort:NAY NAY NAY NAY NAY, I JINXED THE DEFENSE AGAINST THE DARK ARTS JOB SO NO ONE WOULD HAVE IT PERMANETLY, SO THERE FOR NOT GIVING ME THE JOB (pulls eye down and blows rasberry)

It would be amusing if the Order and the Death Eaters (with the latter borrowing [stealing] the duel disks from Dartz) fought Yu-Gi-Oh style, but instead using the Harry Potter card game.

I thought the book was good, though it felt different at the beginning. I'm with everyone that Snape isn't so cut and dry. I think he was double-trible-quadruple-quindople crossing the Death Eaters (Lucias Malfoy: I hate pie) and probably working with the light side (then again Jo IS unpredictable;) ).

Voldemort: I wear a tutu!:)

Death Eaters:............o.0'

Besides Jo Rowling said she might do an encyclopedia-ish book after she finishes the 7th book to clarify and clear up any plot points and facts and flesh out some of the minor characters.

[mikestorm]

Oh, I think we will see Dumbledore again, in a matter of speaking. In The Interview, JKR said that Dumbledore's family would be an interesting line of inquiry and there's that business of us not being properly introduced to a remaining member of the Order. What about dear brother Aberforth Dumbledore? It’s pretty obvious who Aberforth is. It took me an hour, but I’ve put together all the relevant quotes from the books:

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No, he did not! He held his head high and went about his business as usual! Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery. . ..” GoF page 454

"The Hog's Head bar comprised one small, dingy, and very dirty room that smelled strongly of something that might have been goats." OoP page 335

When Moody shows Harry the picture of the Order:

“That’s Dumbledore’s brother, Aberforth, only time I ever met him, strange bloke….” OoP page 174

This is important as it establishes two things:
1)Aberforth was in the Order (he’s on the side of good)
2)Harry sees Aberforth’s face.

Later:

"The barman sidled toward them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry." OoP page 336

Remember, between his family resemblance to his (alleged) brother and the fact that Harry saw Moody’s picture of Aberforth, it’s no wonder he looks familiar.

“On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a small room above the Hog’s Head Inn, I had gone there to see an applicant for the post of Divination teacher…” OoP page 840

This is the night Professer Twelawwney splurts the "lost" prophecy about Harry. We find out later in HBP:

“Yes, there was a commotion outside and the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing there with Snape.” HBP page 545

We discover that the barman was also present for Trelawney’s prophecy, and that he was the one who caught Snape eavesdropping.

“The street was not very busy; nobody was lingering to chat, just hurrying toward their destinations. The exceptions were two men a little ahead of them, standing just outside the Three Broomsticks. One was very tall and thin; squinting through his rain-washed glasses. Harry recognized the barman who worked at the other Hogsmeade pub, the Hog’s Head.” HBP Page 245

We later find out that Mundungus was attempting to fence stolen items from the Black house to the barman. This point is very important, as the locket that was originally in the Black house (widely assumed to be a Horcrux) will most likely eventually make its way into the hands of the barman.

At Dumbledore’s funeral:

“An extraordinary assortment of people had already settled into half of the chairs…and some people Harry merely knew by sight, such as the barman of the Hog’s Head.” HBP page 641

This is important as the one person who was conspicuously absent from Dumbledore’s funeral was his own brother, or was he?

[Humble]

This is important as the one person who was conspicuously absent from Dumbledore’s funeral was his own brother, or was he? I'm very impressed with this deduction. When did you figure this out?
-Humble

[Tanooki]

I'm very impressed with this deduction. When did you figure this out?
-Humblei just pretty much pegged the bar man as aberforth since the organizational meeting of the DA. i continued to read the books with that tidbit in mind

[mikestorm]

I'm very impressed with this deduction. When did you figure this out?
-Humble As of now (November 2005) the Aberforth / Hog's Head Barman theory is not new. If you Google it you'll see, however I will say I did figure it out on my own back in July, most due to my rereading OoP immeidately before reading HBP.

However, taking the time to find every single quote in all the books that mentions the barman, and laying out every single theory, was all me. The specific point you bring up (the lack of a brother at the funeral) is also my theory alone. The quotes about the prophecy don't support the arguement one way or the other, but they are important as it seems a bit odd that such a minor character was present for such a tremendous event, and that he had such a pivotal role (foiling Snape). The unopenable-pendent-is-the-Horcrux theory (seperate theory) concludes with the Barman taking posession of the Horcrux, proving that the Barman will have a role in Book 7.

The one quote I couldn't find (which I think is in GoF) is an off the cuff remark made by Dumbledore to Harry saying he's been known to duck out of Hogwart's and go drinking at the Hog's Head to clear his head, and because no one would think to look for him there.

Here's what the direct quotes tell us:

Aberforth was in the Order (he's a good guy)
Harry has seen Aberforth's face
The Hog's Head barman looks familiar to Harry
Aberforth likes goats
The Hog's Head bar smells of goats
The Barman was one of three people to hear the "lost" prophecey (I'm not including Twelawney.)
The Barman foiled Snape's eavesdropping on the prophecy
The Barman will most likely come into posession of the pendant Horcrux
Dumbledore's brother was not at his funeral
The Barman was at Dumbledore's funeral

[Humble]

As of now (November 2005) the Aberforth / Hog's Head Barman theory is not new. If you Google it you'll see, however I will say I did figure it out on my own back in July, most due to my rereading OoP immeidately before reading HBP. Since I started college I haven't had the time to contemplate HBP. Plus, I tend to avoid the fan base so all this is new to me. Mad props to you and Blue Falcon for figuring it out on your own. :cool:

Now all I have to do is figure out how I can get my sister to figure it out on her own(she's older but lazier :p ).
-Humble

[Fone Bone]

Barman spoiler:

J.K. Rowling has admitted in interviews that the barman is indeed Abelforth. I think enough readers figured it out and asked her so often that she had no problem with revealing the spoiler as it is no longer a surprise.

[Sharklady]

> I'm very impressed with this deduction. <

So am I. That is *just* the sort of clue-scattering that JKR like to do. Kudos to you for spotting the pattern.

BTW: Fone Bone, do you know if that interview you refer to is posted anywhere?

[Fone Bone]

> I'm very impressed with this deduction. <

So am I. That is *just* the sort of clue-scattering that JKR like to do. Kudos to you for spotting the pattern.

BTW: Fone Bone, do you know if that interview you refer to is posted anywhere?I haven't seen the interview myself but it is referenced in the Harry Potter lexicon under Abelforth's entry.

[DarkAngel]

Just finished the book (and read book 5 last week). Great stuff. I think I prefer 5, but 6 was definitely captivating, particularly because of everything surrounding Snape. Rowling hasn't been too obvious, one way or the other, but put me on the side that believes Snape's ultimately on the side of good. Snape's been one of my favorite characters (maybe the favorite) since "The Sorceror's Stone." It's great to see the growing complexity of the character and it's going to be very interesting to see how things go down in the next one.

I just hope the movies for 5 and 6 do the books justice. I wasn't too impressed with the 4th movie.