DCAU to the World: "Ain't no such things as heroes"

[Quintessence]

Think back to when comic books were really made. In the depression era, the war era, times of insecurity and upheaval. Days that needed, even begged for some guiding light to take everyone by the hand and show us a land or a dream world where miracles in human form would come out of the sky and fix whatever's wrong, from your house burning down to your kitty stuck up a tree. All with a smile and an attitude that just can't be beat.

Fast forward to now. Now wonder how these miracles fit in.

They don't. We're too jaded to accept such an ideal. We're now a society who quests for the truth, yet not intelligent enough to realize we're questing for a truth that we can accept. There can be paragons of truth, if we allow them to exist. We keep questioning their goals and disbelieving in their mission to help that was basically run them out of business.

How is a Superman supposed to truly exist in this world? Why should he want to? There's no room for icons in what we already conceive to be fact and law. Heroes are now just screw ups in the making, and we voyeuristically watch with abated breath as the flames flicker and dance from their once glorious wrecks careening to the cruel, unjust earth that spited them just for being. We bemoan for Superman losing his temper, screwing up with Captain Marvel and Cadmus... for not being perfect. Yet it was our own cynic view of the world that made him imperfect. You mess up with your car payment is over due, try making sure an omnipotent shadow government does not destroy you and the only team of people who will lift the shield and sword of protection the world has.

Yet there it is. Superman isn't a hero any more. He's a confused man. As well he should be, these are confusing times. I love how the JLU is handling the characters now, because they aren't heroes, they are beings of thought and reason and confusion. Perfection is for the Gods, and Comic Book Heroes stopped being Gods along time ago.

[jv2k]

The old superman wasn't a god, I mean look at this.
http://www.superdickery.com/dick/25.html
thats not perfect!
But I also like how superman isn't a boy scout anymore.

[Quintessence]

Our man of steel always showed restraint, now his answer is to hit whatever it is hard and until it bleeds

I rarely remember Golden Age Supes to raise his voice, but his temper's been flaring like a wildfire

He treated every hero equally, now he's hating heroes for no good reason.

there's more, but I'd like to see what other people think before I lead this thread in the wrong direction.

[Style]

Quintessence, I think a basic flaw in your reasoning is the idea that a hero has to be perfect. That they were only "heroes" in the Superfriends days, where in addition to fight Luthor and Braniac and Gorilla Grodd, they would rescue cats from trees and tell kiddies to brush their teeth thrice daily to prevent Gingavitis.

That view was rejected for making the heroes too simplistic. But too say that they've livened up the heroes, given them flaws, and making them confused is not to say that they are not heroes.

Because a Hero is just someone who rises to the occasion, to do right. Someone who puts the needs of others ahead of himself. The heroic ideal is selflessness. And while Superman and Batman may not be truly "selfless" anymore, they are still far more committed to helping their fellow man (and woman,) than virtually anyone here can claim credit for.

Yes, Superman has done some questionable things, but the nature of the evil he's confronted with is more confusing. But as long as he puts others ahead of himself, a hero he still is. And he most definately is a hero.

Heroes don't have to be flawless. Sometimes, the greatest heroes are the ones who pull themselves up, who overcome the flaws and confusions and petty wants in his own soul to do something great for everyone.

The fact that, inspite of everything, the justice league is still fighting for the people, and the needs of the oppressed and downtrodden, and the victimized, proves that they are still some of the greatest heroes fiction has ever produced.

The DCAU and the Cadmus arc aren't arguing against heroes. They're arguing for them.:)

[karasu]

Heroes aren't ever perfect. It's kind of sad that you feel Superman can't be considered a hero because he's a confused man, or has any other problem going on. There isn't a hero in history who was without flaw.

[SilverKnight]

I'm sorry, but I don't think I entirley understand the point of this thread. That is to say, I don't know the point that you're trying to make. A majority of your post is levying complaints about how JLU Superman and the DCAU in general has completely changed the Golden Age conceptions we've had of the characters, however, your last paragraph seems to praise this changed aspect. My apologies, but I'm rather confused. Do you or don't you like the changes made? Or do you just dislike how the DCAU is handling Superman?

Yes, he's not Golden Age Superman. He's done stupid things, hated heroes for no good reason, has gotten pissed off and made bullheaded decisions. Well, who hasn't? And moreover, who usually has the guts to admit those mistakes? Superman does. He's not perfect, moreso, he's not the perfect idol most would apparently prefer him to be, but then nobody is. Forgive the pun, but he's only human. He has flaws, sometimes they show through, but what makes him a hero is that in the end he surpasses those failings to do the right thing anyway, or if he wavers, has friends and allies to fall back on to right his course. Perfect people aren't heroes; perfect people are fantasies. Heroes are flawed people who do great things despite them. Maybe I missed the seminar that properly explained Superman, but I always thought that's what he was. >shrug<

[Revelator]

The old superman wasn't a god, I mean look at this.
http://www.superdickery.com/dick/25.html
Dude, I wouldn't give a flying fart about being a God if I was a superpowered witch doctor able to marry men to monkeys. Oh the power, THE POWER!!!

And if that wasn't enough, consider...superdancing...
http://www.superdickery.com/other/88.html

[Kieralinn]

Yes, he's not Golden Age Superman. He's done stupid things, hated heroes for no good reason, has gotten pissed off and made bullheaded decisions. Well, who hasn't? And moreover, who usually has the guts to admit those mistakes? Superman does. He's not perfect, moreso, he's not the perfect idol most would apparently prefer him to be, but then nobody is. Forgive the pun, but he's only human. He has flaws, sometimes they show through, but what makes him a hero is that in the end he surpasses those failings to do the right thing anyway, or if he wavers, has friends and allies to fall back on to right his course. Perfect people aren't heroes; perfect people are fantasies. Heroes are flawed people who do great things despite them. Maybe I missed the seminar that properly explained Superman, but I always thought that's what he was. >shrug<

I agree with this entire statement. One of my favorite songs is "Superman" by Five for Fighting. Like the end of the song says:

"I'm only a man in a silly red sheet, and it's not easy to be me."

[Quintessence]

I think the flaw in my thread is I didn't get my point across like I wanted.

I realize heroes aren't perfect. I summed up as much in my last paragraph


Yet there it is. Superman isn't a hero any more. He's a confused man. As well he should be, these are confusing times. I love how the JLU is handling the characters now, because they aren't heroes, they are beings of thought and reason and confusion. Perfection is for the Gods, and Comic Book Heroes stopped being Gods along time ago.
The whole point of this thread is that I appreciate that. There was a time where heroes could do no wrong, making them icons instead of people. I don't know if it's the jaded qualities imprinted in me by growing up in this generation, but I can't accept a perfect hero. I see many posts in various threads on how batman should have realized what Cadmus is up to or that Superman wouldn't act this way because he's Superman. The point of this thread, as muddled as I've made it, is that Superman could act anyway he wants because he's not a perfect icon, he's just a man with powers. Emotions and being not omniscent plagues him just as well as us. Yes, he snapped at Captian Marvel, but how many of us had that tinge in their chest saying "That's not Superman".

Superman's not Superman. Batman can take off the cape and cowl and he's just a boy who's tortured by a terrible memory. I'd just like people to look past their ideals of their heroes and lionizing them to look at what drove them to put on these costumes and atone for what ever happened.

Makes sense now?

[The Penguin]

Makes sense now?I caught it the first time and I thought it was awesome. Think of it as more of an essay, yes?

[SilverKnight]

Ah. I sorta figured that's what you meant, but I couldn't be entirely certain, with the rampant complaints about Superman's characterization thus far. And, in either case, I agree with you. Superman isn't Superman; he's Clark Kent, and is just as human as anyone else on Earth save his invulnerability. Most just forget that. Good essay-whatever-it-is thingy. :D >gives Quintessence cookies<

[Quintessence]

I'm all about the essay-thinking... and cookies!

I just find what we're doing with comic book heroes today to mirror what we're doing with real life personalities. Glorify them enough so we can be disgusted when they let us down. It's not a way to live life, and given how people are born with these things called emotion, it seems like less and less people are willing to step up to the plate and make a difference in our lives.

A personal example.

In no way do I think of myself as a hero, but my father and mother always taught me to do what I felt was right. During the fall of 2001, I worked at an afterschool program, taking care of little kids while their parents came home from work. One of my students, V., was constantly picked on by her 'friends'. One day, while looking at the little rugrats run around silly, V ran to a corner of the playground where no one was and started to cry. I asked one of my co-workers to keep an eye on my kids and I went to talk to V. She told me her troubles and I listened. I tried to explain to her that people who are truly her friends shouldn't make people feel like that on the inside, and that I had friends that I had to separate myself from because they made me feel bad, too. Then I reassured her that I found better friends who I have fun with and who look out for me, and that she could too. She seemed to be happy about this. But at that moment, her mother came and looked at us. She flipped. She thought I was trying to talk her into doing something wrong. That night, she asked V over and over what I said to her, trying to get her to admit that I was talking her into something. She called V's friends' parents and eventually they admitted to bullying her that day and seeing her run and cry. Even so, V was pulled out of the program the next day and I was almost brought into a review. I decided to not to return in the winter that day and I was really aware that people could see me and that I was surrounded by kids all the time. I was afraid to give any more attention because I didn't want anyone to see me in a bad light, even though some people came up to me later and said that they knew I was just trying to do right by V. Kinda suspect since it wasn't public record that this 'incident' happened. I guess I was hot gossip. The only thing that made me feel better about the incident was a few weeks later that I sat in the gym waiting for the kids to get dismissed from class. I looked out the door and I saw a class being led up into the stairwell to where the classrooms were. And I saw V talking to a new bunch of girls and really looking happier than I ever saw her. She looked into the gym, saw me, and smiled. She waved excitedly and went up the stairs. I smiled to myself and was treated again that after the whole class went up the stairs, she ran down to wave at me again. That did my heart good. But even though that happened, I was instantly worried of what would happen if someone saw her acting that way.

It's long, and it's not on the same vein as Superman being brainwashed to take over the world, but there's the similiarity of... what happens if you're trying to do right and you mess up, even if it's just in the minds of whom you're trying to help? Can the need to do right survive the thoughts and misgivings of those who require your aid? Why should anyone stick their neck out in this world if everyone is convinced you're only doing it to get ahead or some sick want? I realize now that I had nothing to be ashamed of, that I did nothing wrong and I was trying to help someone in my ward, but even to this day, I try to keep whatever 'right' thing I'm doing in public light, so there are no misunderstandings.

[Ian]

Warning, bitterness ahead.

As I've said before, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to Superman: I like him to actually be heroic, in the idealist sense. He should be better than us, in my opinion, and should set a standard to strive for, even if it is unachievable. And althought it varies on a character-to-character basis, that's what I expect from my Justice Leaguers as well. Hence, (part of) my annoyance with this arc.

Should heroes have flaws? Absolutely. Oliver Queen had suddenly lost his own fortune, and a junkie, for a ward, and tried to commit suicide after accidentally killing a man, and I loved him for it. Why? Because despite all that, he still tried his damnedest to do the right thing, because he thought it was the right thing. This man returned to a world he hated to safe Dinah. Myself, I would probably be paralyzed by the indecision.

These guys? They do it because it's a job. A job they don't like. Seriously, the Superman I knew? Liked helping people. The one appearing on the show? Doesn't. And for gob's sake, some professionalism, please, all of you. You have issues? Deal with them off the job, not WHILE ON THE FREAKING MISSION. But I digress. But, I guess that's what happens in a show where showing the character's personal lives is apparently illegal.

Personally, I think the main problem lies with the writers: they want to keep the characters "flawed", and still make us like them and think of them as the heroes, and Cadmus as the villains. Thing is, the characters are too far gone, and I can't root for anyone anymore; they're all too stupid (Cadmus) or unlikeable (Superman) or unbelievable (Batman), and we don't see enough of them to see other sides. Sure, they're not heroes, and heck, I can deal with that--I love Deadwood, for Thor's sake. But they're not good people either. And I hate that.

[Harley_Quinn]

Dude, I wouldn't give a flying fart about being a God if I was a superpowered witch doctor able to marry men to monkeys. Oh the power, THE POWER!!!

And if that wasn't enough, consider...superdancing...
http://www.superdickery.com/other/88.html
I love those they're hilarious!