The Batman character Critique thread

[kreuzritter]

NOTE: this is NOT a 'the batman' bashing thread, but rather a topic for the discussion of what seems to be the biggest issue regarding the show, that being the characters, with an emphasis on the rogues, to assess what's been done right, what's worng, and what flaws can be overlooked. and, let's try to keep vocal comparisons to BTAS to an absolute minimum, so that we can examine these guys on their own merits and out from under the shadow of timm.

to start, let's look at one of the more maligned-for-no-reason rogues: the Riddler

Riddler
Concept: Criminal genius with an addiction to mind games
design: a tall, lanky and anorexic figure, with back length black hair. dresses in a dark green sleeveless bodysuit with a big black question mark running along the torso and left leg, and carries at all times a question-mark capped walking stick. coneals his identity with a green domino mask
The Bad: personally, i've no real problem with it, but most often I hear it's his appearance.
the good: more than the other guys, riddler is played to his concept, the intellectual theif with a huge superiority complex, who thinks his plots through and focusses on outsmarting everyone else rather than a mere gimmick. with a scathing wit delivered by robert englund, you quickly ignore the visual and see a riddler that comes off as his own guy rather than a 'joker wannabe' (indeed, listen to the clip provided by WF for 'night and the city', where riddler meets penguin and joker. Joker makes a quip, and you can almost hear riddler's eyes roll with disdainful contempt). and, unlike almost all the season 1 baddies, riddler is clearly no match for batman in a straight up fight, making a marked change from how everyone apparently knew kung fu before then

[Adeptus32]

I genuinely like The Batman's take on the Riddler. It's one of the models I think the creative team did a good job on. (I also like their version of Catwoman). The way the character is drawn matches what he is supposed to be about, and how he acts. It's also nice, as you point out, that the Riddler doesn't seem to be a closet Ninja like the Penguin and Joker appear to be.

[Gaunt]

Complete agreement regarding the Riddler. They looked over the problems that have plagued the character and fixed it. He is threatening, no longer a "loser villain" but instead a manipulative threat. They took away the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, putting him in control of the riddles and thus increasing the threat level. Furthermore, the riddles now serve a practical purpose. Instead of alerting Batman to the crime and thus causing the Riddler's quick defeat, the riddles muddle the truth, throwing people off his game plan so he can commit his crimes. "The Batman" Riddler is perhaps THE best incarnation of the character.

Here's another maligned rogue in "The Batman:" Penguin.

Concept: An outcast that wants to be accepted in society.
Design: Short, ugly, and fat, the Penguin also has a very Dickenson feel to him.
The Bad: Overused. We've seen far too many episodes about him. Then, there is the "kung-fu" moves.
The Good: The best change to the character was making him the "anti-Bruce," someone who is jealous of the prestige of the character and attempts to take it out on him rather than the Batman. A similar concept was used in the comics, with Black Mask taking that role (which was unfortunately discarded). Furthermore, the character has the arrogance that has always fit the character. He is obnoxious and unwanted, yet he still demands the fame that he feels that he has always deserved.

Catwoman is another one.

Concept: A thief. Someone who is not warped or psychologically scarred, but someone who steals for the fun of it.
Design: Except for the ears, the costume is very utilitarian, reflecting the newest costume in the comics. She also has her trademark bullwhip.
The Bad: Not much, other than her somewhat child-like behavior. At times, it works, but most of the time it doesn't.
The Good: She steals for the fun of it. She loves the adrenalin rush and thrill, not overtly concerned about who she hurts in the process. She isn't a cardboard cuttout that spews comments on "Animal Rights." She's selfish and she knows it.

[Adeptus32]

Whereas I like the Riddler in The Batman, I can't say I am sold on the Penquin. The character design itself is fine, and they have done some things I like with him. This version seems more clearly defined in his goals (i.e. trying to regain lost social status through his ill-gotten gains). The introduction of the use of the trained birds in his crimes is also a nice touch. Tying in Alfred's family history with the Cobblepot family history is a neat idea too. However, these positives are outweighed by his overuse in the episodes to date, and in giving him master-level martial arts skills. Those skills just don't fit well with his other traits and his physical stature.

[Joker1238]

I seen a few shows, But I know how bad the Joker was design.

Maybe one can do one for him. Just wondering, I not pro at this.

[Drizzt2218]

With the exception of Mr. Freeze, I've been pretty happy with most of these villains. I'll admit I haven't seen "Riddled," but all comments lead me to believe they nailed his character. His techno-goth look doesn't bother me at all -- it's a lot better than the Sickly Cancer Patient look that "TNBA" gave the character. My favorite design will always be the "B:TAS" Riddler, but as far as taking him in a new direction while retaining the most classic elements, I think "The Batman" has done a fantastic job with this character.

As per Catwoman, I think her characterization has been spot-on, I like her design, but where the writer initially went astray was in her dialogue, and in Gina Gershon's line delivery. However, I think the writing has improved for her in "The Cat, The Bat and the Very Ugly," and *vastly* improved in the episode "Ragdolls to Riches." So, no real complaints there.

Penguin: I love this version of Ozzy. My only complaint at all is how much he appears in this show...but it's hard to complain when (with the exception of "Bird of Prey"), all his appearances have been so entertaining. I really enjoyed his team-up with Catwoman and his two "comedic cameos," as the one controlling Langstrom in "Pets," and his small role in "The Laughing Bat." He's been used to great comedic effect on this show, helped in no small part by Tom Kenny's fantastic line delivery. No real complaints here.

Joker: I'm possibly one of the few who wasn't let down by the first episode of this series. I took it for what it was, that is, introducing the new status quo, the new gadgets, and giving Batman an iconic foe to fight...all in 22 minutes. There was a lot of ground to cover, and they pulled it off. Joker felt more like a cameo in that one. His next appearance was pretty lousy, but all his season two episodes sound so much better, a couple of them (The Laughing Bat, Strange Minds) are absolutely great. So what if he doesn't have shoes, or his hair is long, or whatever. He's still The Joker, and he's being given some great material here.

Man-Bat: He's Man-Bat. I mean, he really isn't all that much different from his characterization in B:TAS, except that this one enjoys being a creature of the night, instead of "accidentally" turning into the Man-Bat. His design is great, I love the sonar vision, and in all he's a great threat to the Batman. I didn't need a tragic origin for him; personally, I rather like the psychological aspect presented, that he's a weak little man that wishes to be feared, and rule the night. We didn't complain about this aspect when it was used with The Scarecrow, but people complain that Langstrom lacks any characterization.

Firefly: Again, in his two appearances I think they've nailed him for what he is: A hotheaded motormouth who likes to destroy things. He's not a pyromaniac, and I like that instead of being someone trapped by his obsession, he's simply a mercenary with a niche. Again, no complaints.

Clayface: Absolutely the best villain on this show. So much has been said about him, I'd just be retreading ground. This is where the creative team has excelled, and I look forward to future stories with this new Clayface.

Killer Croc: I like this Croc more than the B:TAS version, to be honest. I prefer him to be an intelligent, cunning, cold-blooded villain rather than the dim-witted punchline we saw in B:TAS. His accent didn't bother me in the slightest, and I thought it was a nice touch for a guy with "croc" in his name. I very much enjoyed his appearance.

Scarface: Again, all I've heard are complaints about his design. His characterization was perfect, exactly how Scarface and Wesker should be. They nailed these characters.

Mr. Freeze: As I said before, the only character to leave me disappointed. And yet I can see where they had problems with him. I mean, a dead wife (or even a frozen one) wasn't going to be allowed on a kid's cartoon these days. Rather than seek an alternative, they went with his classic take, that of a hot-tempered crook obsessed with diamonds ("ice"), who blames Batman for his current state. I'd rather have seen them find an alternatively tragic backstory for Freeze. As it stands, he's a huge disappointment in this series, and the one villain I hope we see them improve upon as the series progresses.

That's my 2 cents on most of The Batman's rogues.

--Larry

[jv2k]

Note there may be some slight spoilers in this.
The Joker: His first few appearances weren't great but I didn't mind any of his season 2 ones, I actually enjoyed JTV and some of his other episodes are great. Though I didn't like Strange Minds that much. Anyway people complain how he is able to fight toe to toe with The Batman but recently I read the first two batman comics. They had many dealings with the joker and not once was batman able to beat him on his own. He had help from robin, or joker was weak recovering from surgery, or he got Joker to stab himself. All in all I don't see why people complain about him being able to fight batman, the original joker for lack of another term wooped batman's ass. The one thing that buggs me about the design is not the hair, or the lack of shoes, or the shape of the face, its the teeth, his teeth bug the hell out of me, I wish they were straighter. In his better apearances he is shown to act childish, yet still be able to kill people(something people don't notice in that horrific episode Topsy Turvy is that he throws the people in the river to slowly drown, completly helpless yet aware of what is going on). He is intelligent and able to minipulate others to do his will, and at the same time appearing to be childish and telling jokes. He has even tried to kill everyone in Gotham. The jokers worst problem is he is over used.

The Penguin: As someone else in this thread put it, he is the anti-bruce. The exact opposite of what bruce is. His character design is fine my one problem is his teeth, they are sharp and pointy, I just dislike it. He is really obnoxious and at times even annoying. He is also over used.

The Catwoman: Her character design isn't bad, but her ears are too big and those goggles don't look too great. Aside from that a great character, able to be flirtatious and manipulate people, she even uses he true identity to seduce potential victems of her theft and scope out locations. She is one of my favorite characters on the show.

The Racoon: Annoying, but it has a solid character design. It also seemed to forshadow Robin(depite the fact that under the embargo he is off limits because of teen titans).
I'm done for now.

[TimTwoFace]

I liked the Penguin, initially - and I still do - but he's lost a lot of the "anti-Bruce" characterization that he received in his debut episode. There have been some fun Penguin plots since, but none of them delve into the character like his first appearance.

-Tim

[Gaunt]

I liked the Penguin, initially - and I still do - but he's lost a lot of the "anti-Bruce" characterization that he received in his debut episode. There have been some fun Penguin plots since, but none of them delve into the character like his first appearance.
The only episodes where the concept is explored is in "Call of the Cobblepot" and "Birds of Prey." Other than that, the other episodes just make him a common thief.

[Casey Mack]

I Think the Penguin is dead on accept for the Karate moves:sweat:.The joker is okay, but like the penguin he seems to be an expert gymnast and Karate master:sad: .


Now for the Characters that need major improvement.


The new Riddler
The good-comes off rather scary sometimes
The Bad- well where should i start unlike the Batman Animated series Riddler this version feels like a backstreet boy with a high intellect. He has no red hair, and he lacks the human aspects that he had in the BTAS incarnation. His backstory is almost non existent so he comes off as a generic supervillian nothing more nothing less.

Bane
The good-um hes red
The bad-He went from a spanish wrestler to the red Hulk.Its a lose lose situation.


OH YES AND FINALLY new MR.FREEZE:sad:
The good-can you find one
the bad- The bad well Mr.Freeze is suppose to be stealing to cure his wife, now in "the Batman" hes just another thief that got lucky. In the past we were suppose to feel for this guy, but now hes just another bum.


All the other badies are great espeically the New Clayface.:)
________
Granny Xxx (http://www.****tube.com/categories/23/granny/videos/1)

[Loren]

I haven't seen what apparently are the best episodes of the series, and that includes all three Clayface eps, but here are my thoughts on what I've seen:

Alfred: I've said this before, but I *hate* this show's version of Alfred. Every time he's onscreen I hope that the scene will end swiftly. His tone of voice is perpetually snivelly and annoying. Aside from a generic British accent, he hasn't demonstrated much of any actual class or sophistication. He criticizes Bruce so much that I wonder why he hasn't been fired yet. I'd attribute it to the bond between them, but there seems to be a total lack of repoire. His jokes are dumb and his dialogue frequently insipid. Plus, his head is shaped like a jellybean and his tux doesn't look terribly neat.

Joker: The look and the voice have grown on me, but the character still seems completely void of any actual personality. His only emotion is 'crazy.' The only Joker episode I've liked was 'The Laughing Bat,' where he was playing a role the whole time.

Penguin: Again, the look and voice have grown on me. But like most everybody else, I could do without Kung-Fu Cobblepot. It's as if the show's creators decided that all of Batman's villains have to be physical threats to Bruce (with the exception of Cluemaster). The geisha sidekicks are downright random. And as Tim pointed out, they seem to have totally abandoned the motivation they set up in his first two episodes (and the second one's plot was basically a variation on the first).

Riddler: Love the voice and the characterization. The Riddler is perhaps my favorite villain, and Robert Englund totally won me over. But I hate the design with a vengeance. Also, while his scheme was ingenious, his riddles were too easy. And I wish that they'd given some, *any,* background on him.

Catwoman: Excellent design, pulling largely from Darwyn Cooke's design. It beats the heck out of either BTAS design. Good voice too. She hasn't done anything that really stands out in my mind, but she hasn't done anything terribly wrong either. One of the show's best intrepreations of a villain.

Bane: Black-costume normal Bane was intriguing. Giant red Hulk-man was silly. Bane is a very limited character, since he serves as nothing but a physical foil for Batman, and making him a man-monster that requires a robo-suit to best him makes future stories even more difficult. There's only so many ways Batman can mess with his Venom supply.

Firefly: Really good design on the costume, but the guy's actual face looks pretty goofy. Good voice too. I liked his initial motivation as industrial sabateur, but they seemed to largely abandon that for his second appearance. I think they've done about as much with Firefly as can be done.

Cluemaster: Probably my favorite re-interpretation of a villain on this show. Ordinary Cluemaster has always been a poor man's Riddler, and the only thing that made him worthwhile was Spoiler. Here, they managed to make him into something new and unique.

Scarface: Really good on the characterization, voice, and look for the Ventriloquist. Didn't care for Scarface's design. But I'm concerned that if creating a giant Scarface robot is the best they could do for an introductory episode, they don't really know what to do with this character. Like I said with Penguin, they couldn't help but make even the dummy a physical threat.

Mr. Freeze: Least favorite interpreation of a villain. There's a good reason why the character was in limbo for years before being revitalized by BTAS. Good Batman villains have psychological issues, and aren't merely bank robbers with metahuman or uber-technical gimmicks (that's the recipe for a good Flash rogue). The pathos that BTAS provided turned Freeze into a character who fit the Batman mold better. By taking away not only his motivation but also his weakness, and instead making him a flat-out crook with mutant powers, he's not nearly as interesting and he's frankly out of Batman's league.

Killer Croc: I actually liked the Cajun take on the character, but not unlike Freeze, mutant crooks just aren't the best Batman foes. Croc isn't really a great villain to start with, but at least his status as a freak who can't feel accepted by society made him appropriate to the Batverse. Mutant alligator-man, who is clearly superior to Bats on a physical level, and who has no psychological issues, just isn't as interesting.

Man-Bat: Same here. Mutant with dreams of grandeur. No inner conflict, no motivation beside desiring power. Blah. I think Man-Bat works best not as a straight-out villain, but as a freak who really wants to be good despite himself. On the plus side, they do have a good visual on the character, and even though I dislike the characterization, Peter McNichol does a good job with the voice.

Clayface: Haven't seen any of the Clayface episodes. But based on what I've read, he has what the above mutant villains lack. He's not merely a superpowered crook, but actually has some sort of inner conflict and personality.

Loren

[Azrael24]

joker- okay design, although the hair gets annoying, but i like his facial expressions in the latest episodes. his voice is okay and his overall character is good. hes getting badder in every episode though (ie. like when he let go of ethan an would have let him go! thats violence unnoticed)

penguin- never been a fan of penguin and never will, but i think this one is okay if not for the matrix moves. i kinda like the kabuki twins though.

catwoman- although i dont like her ears that much her design is great. specially when shes selina (best version of ms.kyle yet:nurse:.) i havent seen 'ragdoll to riches' but i liked her in all the episodes shes been in, and her voice is good but sometimes its a little off.

riddler- this version of riddler is a lot creepier than his last version and i think thats a good thing cause it makes him more intersting, and robert englund does great!

clayface- the best villain in the show and i like his background story and i think its very tragic. his design is a lot more clay-like than the past. i dont hate but i dont love it. its just okay.

[creativerealms]

Clayface: This shows two face and current top villain of the show. I like the smaller clayface design I feel he works better that way. Allows him to get away with things the big blob of a Clayface could not do like fly. Also since there are tons of Clayface characters in Batman comics he was the best choice for a new character, it let the team sculpt (Pun intended) this characters human and monster side very well. It will be interesting to see where they go with him. 9.5/10



Joker: Well he has improved his first to plots were nonsense but he seems to have gotten better in that way. It’s nice that he has his suit now but he needs shoes. He has only worn shoes in one episode “Meltdown” even when he becomes batman he does not put on shoes. Still the Clayface episodes and Laughing Bat have been a huge improvement for this character. 6/10



Penguin: He had a better motivation at the beginning of the series then most of the characters. He was motivated to regain his family’s respect and wealth by any means necessary. They even had a throwaway line for how he learned those ninja like moves. However his sidekicks are random, even with a throwaway explanation he looks ridiculous fighting that good, and the fact is his motivation has vanished during the second season I have to give Ozzy 4/10



Riddler: For as bad as the design is the way the character was pulled off was near perfection even without a motivation. In fact add a true motivation to Riddler and we have a real winner here. Best thing about Riddler here is that it is his mind that is his main weapon against Batman. 7.5/10



Firefly. I loved the way he was played in his first episode. He was less the villain and more the distraction. He was just a hired gun sabotaging one companies competitors, I liked it I really did. In his second episode while Freeze did hire him he seems much more involved which contradicted with the first episode. In his first episode he just waited for Gothcorp to call him for his next hit, the next time he shows up he is much more involved with his employer’s plot and it even turns them against one another. 7/10



Scarface: I felt the Scarface/Wesker relationship was done as well and in some ways even better then BTAS did. However giant Scarface is where he fell apart. While I’m glad it was only for the last five minutes this episode and character was much stronger (Personality and how it was pulled off) before he decided to be a robot. 8/10 without robot 6/10 with.



Mr. Freeze: Batman TAS took a d list batman villain and made him an A-list villain. They reinvented him and the comics brought him back the same way. The Batman’s Freeze returns him to his D-list days. I know they wanted to make him different but it was the Batman TAS version that made Freeze such a popular villain 1/10