JLU and the Bat-Crew

[Trevor Balena]

Being such a huge fan of BTAS and TNBA, it really rankles me that the Bat-Sidekicks aren't allowed to be shown on JLU. In some of my geekier moments, I wonder about how Nightwing, Batgirl, and Robin would fit into the show.

Would they be regular members, like Supergirl and Steel? Would Batman forbid them to join altogether, thinking that if he is going to devote time to the League, then he'd rather his sidekicks be keeping an eye on Gotham in his absence? Or would it be somewhere in the middle, with maybe Nightwing and Batgirl being part-timers like Bruce, but with Robin being too young to join?

What say you all? How would it work, and what kind of stories could be told?




And, dare I mention it... what about Batwoman?

[Bird Boy]

I doubt it. They're essentially weaker versions of Batman and he can barely hold his own.

That and if we take the suit case into account in "Starcrossed", Robin, Batgirl and Nightwing already left.

-BB

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

^Um, if Batman can't hold his own, then why is he one of the big 7 or the founding members? And no, Batgirl and Robin at least couldn't have left yet since the Joker is still alive at this time since Wild Cards just happened. The cases were probably just a mistake and the animators were too lazy to take that out. :D

[Bird Boy]

^Um, if Batman can't hold his own, then why is he one of the big 7 or the founding members? And no, Batgirl and Robin at least couldn't have left yet since the Joker is still alive at this time since Wild Cards just happened. The cases were probably just a mistake and the animators were too lazy to take that out. :D

I said he could barely hold his own, not that he can't. If his protege's are weaker versions than him, then they really don't have much of a chance.

We don't know how much time passed between "Wild Cards" and "Starcrossed." Obviously it had to be a lot if John and Shayera got as serious as they did...

As for the case, I remember Timm saying that they specifically used that background, but forgot to take out the Batman Beyond suit...

-BB

[Bleu Unicorn]

I said he could barely hold his own, not that he can't. If his protege's are weaker versions than him, then they really don't have much of a chance.

We don't know how much time passed between "Wild Cards" and "Starcrossed." Obviously it had to be a lot if John and Shayera got as serious as they did...

As for the case, I remember Timm saying that they specifically used that background, but forgot to take out the Batman Beyond suit...

-BB
They apparently forget about the Beyond suit a lot - it was there in the case in ROTJ, too.

Anyway, I have to agree with BB on this one. I would find the rest of the Batfamily a bit useless and redundant in the JLU. (Though I guess that wouldn't be new since there are "two stretchy guys" and Supergirl's basically a weaker, female version of Superman, but anyhoo.) Other than the coolness factor of actually having them there, I personally can't see how they could specifically contribute anything - I mean if Batman is basically a member due to his scientific knowledge and detective abilities, what exactly do the others have to offer?

Not to mention, who'd be protecting Gotham if everyone was off saving the universe all the time!

[Trevor Balena]

I said he could barely hold his own, not that he can't. If his protege's are weaker versions than him, then they really don't have much of a chance.

We don't know how much time passed between "Wild Cards" and "Starcrossed." Obviously it had to be a lot if John and Shayera got as serious as they did...

As for the case, I remember Timm saying that they specifically used that background, but forgot to take out the Batman Beyond suit...

-BB
I could be wrong, but didn't Timm say that it was a goof having any of the cases there? I mean, they make sense in Batman Beyond, and even in "A Better World", but they seem out of place in "Starcrossed". I'm pretty sure that they were forced to use those backgrounds because Timm wanted the cave to look like it did in Beyond, the cases just happened to be there, and it wasn't worth the time or money to repaint the BG's.

And, while the sidekicks may only be "not-quite-Batmans", that's still no small distinction... it's like saying Sammy Sosa is only a "not-quite-McGuire" (forgive the dated analogy... I don't follow too many popular sports, and a tennis analogy would go right over most people's heads).

I mean, Nightwing has got to be at least as effective as the League's non-powered members, like Huntress, Question, Vigilante, Shining Knight, Crimson Avenger, et cetera, et cetera...

Personally, I like to think that they are in the League (well, maybe not Robin), but we just don't see them. Kind of like Plastic Man, who was mentioned but will never actually see any screen time. Maybe I'm just being an utter fanboy, but the thought that all of the characters that I've been watching on TV for over a decade are now part of one big fighting force gives me a warm fuzzy.

[Trevor Balena]

Anyway, I have to agree with BB on this one. I would find the rest of the Batfamily a bit useless and redundant in the JLU. (Though I guess that wouldn't be new since there are "two stretchy guys" and Supergirl's basically a weaker, female version of Superman, but anyhoo.) Other than the coolness factor of actually having them there, I personally can't see how they could specifically contribute anything - I mean if Batman is basically a member due to his scientific knowledge and detective abilities, what exactly do the others have to offer?

Not to mention, who'd be protecting Gotham if everyone was off saving the universe all the time!
I appreciate your point, but I think your logic is flawed. Isn't Question redundant, because we already have a detective in Batman? Aren't Huntress, Green Arrow, and Vigilante all just experts in weapons and projectiles? And, like you said, isn't Supergirl basically the same as Superman?

It's the personalities that the members bring to the table that make them interesting.

Plus, from the perspective of the characters in the show, doesn't it make more sense to have more than one person who can do a particular thing really well? I mean, the NYPD don't just find the officer with them best aim and give him, and only him, a gun, do they?

And regarding your last point: who's protecting Metropolis when Superman, Supergirl, and Steel are all on the Watchtower?

[Bird Boy]

I could be wrong, but didn't Timm say that it was a goof having any of the cases there? I mean, they make sense in Batman Beyond, and even in "A Better World", but they seem out of place in "Starcrossed". I'm pretty sure that they were forced to use those backgrounds because Timm wanted the cave to look like it did in Beyond, the cases just happened to be there, and it wasn't worth the time or money to repaint the BG's.

I'm pretty sure he just said the Batman Beyond suit, as the suit case was meant to be there. I could be wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure he just said the BB suit...


And, while the sidekicks may only be "not-quite-Batmans", that's still no small distinction... it's like saying Sammy Sosa is only a "not-quite-McGuire" (forgive the dated analogy... I don't follow too many popular sports, and a tennis analogy would go right over most people's heads).

I don't think Batgirl or Robin would fit in with the League. You can't honestly tell me they would've done much good in the fight against the Dark Heart. I'm sure they fought during the Thanagarian invasion, but they probably aren't real members of the League. I doubt Batman would let them.


I mean, Nightwing has got to be at least as effective as the League's non-powered members, like Huntress, Question, Vigilante, Shining Knight, Crimson Avenger, et cetera, et cetera...

Maybe. I'm sure he could take on all of them. But depending on how jaded Nightwing is about the Bruce / Barbara thing, he probably wouldn't want to be anywhere near Batman or even be in a League taht contained him.


Personally, I like to think that they are in the League (well, maybe not Robin), but we just don't see them. Kind of like Plastic Man, who was mentioned but will never actually see any screen time. Maybe I'm just being an utter fanboy, but the thought that all of the characters that I've been watching on TV for over a decade are now part of one big fighting force gives me a warm fuzzy.

It is a big warm fuzzy...but I doubt Batman's team is in there. You know how he is--his way or the highway. That and putting them in danger with super-powered alien demon monsters isn't his idea of safe. I just can't see Batgirl and Nightwing being much help in the grand scheme of things.

-BB

[Bleu Unicorn]

I appreciate your point, but I think your logic is flawed. Isn't Question redundant, because we already have a detective in Batman? Aren't Huntress, Green Arrow, and Vigilante all just experts in weapons and projectiles? And, like you said, isn't Supergirl basically the same as Superman?

It's the personalities that the members bring to the table that make them interesting.

Plus, from the perspective of the characters in the show, doesn't it make more sense to have more than one person who can do a particular thing really well? I mean, the NYPD don't just find the officer with them best aim and give him, and only him, a gun, do they?

And regarding your last point: who's protecting Metropolis when Superman, Supergirl, and Steel are all on the Watchtower?
I don't have flawed logic...maybe just illogical logic. But I refuse to try and make sense of something that quite honestly will never have a conclusion unless the show provides one. I think in the end all of it will be left to personal interpretation, especially given the embargo. Anyhow, I'm not saying that the JLU doesn't have redundancy in it's ranks (actually I think I was saying it did, but perhaps that was lost in the babble), more that I can't think of something specific they'd contribute other than the masses of Batman fans being appeased by their presence. I'm not saying having a whole bunch of people with basically the same skills, powers, etc. is a bad idea, because that'd basically be like saying the Batfamily itself is pointless. And if we're going to make the arguement that it's personalities that differentiate the characters - then someone needs to explain to me how Dick is really much different than Bruce! :)

As far as Metropolis...I've asked the same question, so I can't answer that. Hehe.

I think I am making even less sense this time around. I give up. But in the end, I quite honestly just don't think they'd be part of the team because of Batman himself. I can't see him letting his proteges endanger themselves in such a grand scale, but who knows I've been wrong before.

[Azrael24]

wouldnt they be waaay to old?? what i mean is, wouldnt robin be like almost thirty?? batgirl like thirty-five?? nightwing thirty'seven or something?? and wouldnt cassandra be batgirl by now?? or she not in this universe?? and spoiler have become robin and died already?? if you look at the time that has passed since BTAS and JLU its about 20 years.im just saying...

[Bleu Unicorn]

wouldnt they be waaay to old?? what i mean is, wouldnt robin be like almost thirty?? batgirl like thirty-five?? nightwing thirty'seven or something?? and wouldnt cassandra be batgirl by now?? or she not in this universe?? and spoiler have become robin and died already?? if you look at the time that has passed since BTAS and JLU its about 20 years.im just saying...
Ok, what? I'm so confused.

I'm sure time has passed since BTAS and JLU, but if 20 years went by, well, Bruce himself would be getting kind of old and retiring!

When did Robin die??

[Trevor Balena]

wouldnt they be waaay to old?? what i mean is, wouldnt robin be like almost thirty?? batgirl like thirty-five?? nightwing thirty'seven or something?? and wouldnt cassandra be batgirl by now?? or she not in this universe?? and spoiler have become robin and died already?? if you look at the time that has passed since BTAS and JLU its about 20 years.im just saying...
You're a little confused. Sure, time has passed, but according to Timm and co., it's only been "a few years". Even the most out-there fanboy estimates place JLU only five or six years after the close of TNBA. Certainly nobody has ever implied that decades have passed.

Also, I think you're confusing the comics universe with the animated one. Cassandra Cain and Spoiler don't exist here.


And to everybody else: while you're free to speculate about anything you want, of course (this being a public board and all), what I was mainly looking for were opinions about how the sidekick question would be handled in from the characters' perspectives. So while it's certainly valid to question whether Robin would make much sense to include in the show from Bruce Timm's point of view, I'm more interested in how you think the characters themselves would feel about it. That's what I was getting at initially, at any rate.

Along those lines, I agree with some posters that Batman might feel the League is too dangerous for his "family". However, I think he might see some positive aspects as well. Being in the League would provide the Bat-Team with valuable experience and training, if nothing else (where else is Batgirl going to learn to fight aliens?). Maybe Bruce might even see bringing Dick in as a way to mend their troubled relationship?

At any rate, Superman did say there would be no more cowboys. At the very least, Nightwing and the rest probably operate under the auspices of the League, even if they are rarely (if ever) called upon to participate in actual League missions.

And yes, I realize the pointlessness of speculating about things like this, but hey, we're all fanboys and fangirls here, right? ;)

[Azrael24]

spoilers:

the stephanie (i think thats how you spell it) robin was tortured until killed by black mask.

about the timeline, think about it. TNBA was two years after TAS, TNBA was i dunno, 3 years? JL was about 2 years after TNBA, and Jl was about 3-4 years. then JLU is about maybe 2 years afterwards. so thats about 13-14 years from TAS to JLU

[Azrael24]

You're a little confused. Sure, time has passed, but according to Timm and co., it's only been "a few years". Even the most out-there fanboy estimates place JLU only five or six years after the close of TNBA. Certainly nobody has ever implied that decades have passed.

Also, I think you're confusing the comics universe with the animated one. Cassandra Cain and Spoiler don't exist here.
i was exaggerating with 20 years. and we dont actually know if they exist cause we never see gotham anymore, but i dont think cassandra exist cause barbara can walk in BB

[Trevor Balena]

spoilers:

the stephanie (i think thats how you spell it) robin was tortured until killed by black mask.

about the timeline, think about it. TNBA was two years after TAS, TNBA was i dunno, 3 years? JL was about 2 years after TNBA, and Jl was about 3-4 years. then JLU is about maybe 2 years afterwards. so thats about 13-14 years from TAS to JLU

I still think more than ten or twelve years since the time of "On Leather Wings" is probably pushing it, but my main issue was that you made it sound like so much time had passed since TNBA ended, not since BTAS began.

At any rate, we don't want this thread to turn into yet another debate about character aging, so we should probably just agree to disagree.

[Azrael24]

fine with me...

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

Appearances I say would be nice if we had an episode that started with Batman and Batgirl investigating a crime in Gotham and the League gets involved somehow. It would work too. Besides, you can never have too many members in the Justice League apparently. :D

[Azrael24]

that does sound like a good way to put in batgirl w/the justice league. now that i think about it, they cant use batgirl cause of the batman and they cant use robin or nightwing cause of teen titans.

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

^Very little were available to begin with.

[Squall]

Being such a huge fan of BTAS and TNBA, it really rankles me that the Bat-Sidekicks aren't allowed to be shown on JLU. In some of my geekier moments, I wonder about how Nightwing, Batgirl, and Robin would fit into the show.
Me too. As good as JLU already is, imagine how much better it would be if the B:TAS/TNBA world was allowed to fully integrate on JLU! :eek:

Personally, I think that Batgirl and Nightwing should be full JLU members. Robin (Tim Drake), like Static Shock & Gear, are just too young to join right now. :)

As for Batwoman -- I think she was a one-shot deal. The conclusion of her story ended with there being no more Batwoman. (Or Batwomen, as it were.)

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

^Well actually I think Batgirl would be a member at least and much like her mentor she'd probably be part-time as well. :D , I mean she is older than Supergirl. (I think) As for Nightwing being a member, I don't know if he'd even be there since he wants to seperate himself from Batman as much as possible. (Besides Nightwing's rights are so tied up right now it seems as though NOBODY can use him) as for Robin well yeah he'd probably be too young to join, besides that he's "with the Titans" :D

[RAINMAN]

Was robin ever apart of the league in the comic book?

[Trevor Balena]

Was robin ever apart of the league in the comic book?
As far as I know, there has never been a Robin in the League. However, a couple of years ago, Nightwing was leader of a sort of replacement League that Batman put together when the original team was presumed dead.

[killbot]

I don't see why Nightwing and Batgirl couldn't be in the League, they have plenty of other members with less-than-superhuman power levels. I mean, Huntress and Vigilante don't have any powers. Neither do Green Arrow, Wildcat, The Question, and I'm sure a ton of others. Robin I could see not being a member because of his age, even if he's presumed to have aged a bit... if Tim was 12 in TNBA and a bit more like 13-14ish in Mystery Of The Batwoman, he could be 15-17ish in JLU, old enough for a new character design, which I'd like to see. Of course NOT having him around leaves the possibility open that the events of ROTJ have already transpired, even tho I hate to think of Tim going out like that. Also the JLU Bruce seems a little too well-adjusted for anything like that to have gone down in his recent past. I get the impression that Bruce Timm doesn't like the fact that the fanboys are so obsessed with seeing these characters on JLU, and I don't blame him for wanting his show to be judged for what it IS instead of what it ISN'T...I just want to know that Bruce (Wayne, that is) hasn't left his friends behind. I mean, how cool would it be if a JLU adventure brought Batman and, say, Wonder Woman to Gotham. They need back-up for some reason, and Jon (Jonnz) says no one is available. Wonder Woman says something like, "well it's YOUR home town, don't you KNOW anyone?" The next shot is Batgirl, Nightwing and slightly-older Robin swinging into action, the TNBA theme welling up behind them. Nerdgasm.

[Grimlock]

As for the case, I remember Timm saying that they specifically used that background, but forgot to take out the Batman Beyond suit...

-BB
I believe the entire case was not supposed to be there, just a mistake because they used the batman beyond background.

Someone should look this up for us :).