Gene Deitch's Tom and Jerry

[Glenn]

Are there any video's that have all the Tom & Jerry's that were directed by Deitch? These are the only ones that I'm missing from completing the Tom & Jerry cartoons.

Glenn

[Pietro]

I have ALL of them. If you'd like to trade just email me at pietroa@juno.com!

-Pietro:D

[DarthGonzo]

...and of course with a little luck and patience you can get em all on CN, right? These cartoon really arent that bad, but I get frustrated seeing them on the Saturday night slot when I'm expecting rare H/B cartoons.

" 'Get in your cabinet. Get in your cabinet.' That's what you always say!" :yawn:

[lislebartman]

Originally posted by DarthGonzo
...and of course with a little luck and patience you can get em all on CN, right? These cartoon really arent that bad, but I get frustrated seeing them on the Saturday night slot when I'm expecting rare H/B cartoons.

In my eyes, yes, they are bad!! How bad? Bad enough for me not to include them in my collection!

However, I must be fair - "Carmen Get It" is at least watchable...

[DarthGonzo]

Well, theyre not that bad, but I dont tape them. The only Tom and Jerry cartoons I have in my collection are the H/B ones.

[chuckamuck43]

Tell ya what - I dislike even CHUCK's Tom & Jerrys - but at least they LOOK good.
Deitch's T&J's are some of the butt-ugliest cartoons I've ever seen! And they sound horrible too.....IMHO

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Glenn
Are there any video's that have all the Tom & Jerry's that were directed by Deitch? These are the only ones that I'm missing from completing the Tom & Jerry cartoons.

Glenn

Glenn~

I have been told that the Deitch cartoons are included in a Japanese laserdisc. Might want to check it out... ('Course this is coming from a guy with an original story sketch from a Deitch Tom & Jerry...) :bosko:

[lislebartman]

Originally posted by chuckamuck43
Tell ya what - I dislike even CHUCK's Tom & Jerrys - but at least they LOOK good.
Deitch's T&J's are some of the butt-ugliest cartoons I've ever seen! And they sound horrible too.....IMHO

I agree, chuckamuck! While Jones's T & J outings are very pleasant to the eyes, they just aren't funny...IMHO. Deitch's cartoons seem very busy and cluttered and the music is God-awful!

[DarthGonzo]

Originally posted by lislebartman


I agree, chuckamuck! While Jones's T & J outings are very pleasant to the eyes, they just aren't funny...IMHO. Deitch's cartoons seem very busy and cluttered and the music is God-awful!

At least the Deitch cartoons kinda look like Tom and Jerry and the characters kinda stay in character. Jones' Tom and Jerry are stock Jones cartoon cat and mouse characters that only look vaguely like Tom and Jerry. Tom reminds me of Claude Cat sometimes.

[Glenn]

Thanks for all your input guys. I think I'm gonna pass on the Gene Dietch cartoons.

Glenn

[lislebartman]

Originally posted by Glenn
Thanks for all your input guys. I think I'm gonna pass on the Gene Dietch cartoons.

Glenn

Hey, don't let our opinions stop you from wanting to add them to your collection! I say take up Pietro's offer for a trade of some sort. We're just voicing our opinions...I hope you don't think we're trying to dissuade you. It's alla matter of taste... :cool:

[Glenn]

I know that I should just get them and judge for myself, but, I trust all your opinions. It seems we have basically the same taste in the toons

[J Lee]

Deitch's T&J shorts tend to pop up with the most regularity on the late Saturday/early Sunday (1:30 a.m. EST) Tom and Jerry Show. Set your VCR for that time and you'll probably get a chance to watch a few and judge for yourself.

[Randy Watts]

One problem I have watching Deitch's cartoons is that those few that don't seem too reminiscent of earlier -- and superior -- Tom and Jerry's invariably leave me thinking that Hanna-Barbera would have done it better. "Buddies Thicker Than Water," for example, has a storyline that doubtless would have served H-B well, but Deitch doesn't seem to have any idea how to get anything funny out of it.

Too, it's hard to argue with their being unattractive. They're just about the ugliest bunch of theatrical cartoons I've ever seen.

All that said, some of them are better than others. Both the characters and the basic formula for the series were so well established by the time Deitch got hold of them that some of his films were bound to succeed -- at least minimally -- almost by default. My advice is to watch a few and make up your own mind. Just don't expect anything close to vintage Tom and Jerry.

[Larry T]

After having seen all of the Deitch Tom and Jerrys, I was left with the impression that Deitch and his crew only watched one H-B Tom and Jerry (and probably not all the way through), and made a whole series based on what they saw- in accordance with lislebartman, they just seemed to lose the whole idea of where the humour actually came from.... they're just not funny.

However, in all fairness, I think Deitch was way ahead of his time. He really did contribute to the style and feel of the Terrytoon cartoons later on, with some pretty unique ideas- he almost should have just put his ideas into a new series of cartoons rather than to try and adapt an already working formula in the Tom and Jerrys. This, of course, also connects with the ugly character adaptation- they lack that attractive and endearing charm that H-B, and even Chuck Jones later on gave them.... Not to mention the, to quote Greg Duffell, "sound recorded in an empty bathroom in Prague" effects.

I wonder what kind of thoughts Deitch ever had while producing these- "yeah, I know these aren't what people are used to, but I don't care", or, "man, I'm just the greatest director of all time- these are hilarious.... what? you don't think so? well, why not, look- see how Tom's owner smacks him AGAIN with that oar, HAW, HAW!! Now see Jerry set Tom up to be whacked yet another time, HA!! Geez, I'm funny!!! Hey! who's directing here, anyway?... why, you..... Hey!! WAKE UP!! or you'll miss seeing Tom get whacked by the owner again!!"

:wakko:

[Jon Cooke]

All the Gene Deitch Tom and Jerry cartoons were indeed released on a Japanese released laserdisc called "Tom and Jerry With Droopy". The other half of the LD was a selection of Tex Avery's Droopy cartoons. I am not sure if it's still available, a quick Internet search didn't turn up anything.

Some of the cartoons are better than others, that's for sure. I have said before that there are some I do like ("The Tom and Jerry Cartoon Kit", "Mouse Into Space", "Carman Get It!"), but even those are not even close to a classic H-B Tom & Jerry.


-Jon

[laugh4me]

Originally posted by Larry T
After having seen all of the Deitch Tom and Jerrys, I was left with the impression that Deitch and his crew only watched one H-B Tom and Jerry (and probably not all the way through), and made a whole series based on what they saw- in accordance with lislebartman, they just seemed to lose the whole idea of where the humour actually came from.... they're just not funny.
.....
I wonder what kind of thoughts Deitch ever had while producing these- ....
In Gene's own words...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even if the spirit was willing to give it an honest try, the fact remained that these communist-era, isolated animators had never in their lives seen even one Tom & Jerry cartoon! I had seen more than a few, and in spite of my ideological distance, I did appreciate the perfect craftsmanship, the expressive animation, with its exquisite timing, the endless gag inventiveness, and the characters' incredible damage survival.

...

The first step was for my new colleagues to see some examples. MGM sent me exactly four 35mm Tom & Jerry prints, plus the most recent model sheets, and a few stacks of actual pencil animation, the original drawings on paper. We all studied the material over and over, running the films in projection and on the studio's editing tables. We watched for the little timing tricks, the "takes," the basic attitudes and facial expressions. We practiced drawing the characters in their typical poses.
...
But even though our Tom & Jerrys were never good enough for the animation history mavens, Joe Vogel and his MGM team were well-satisfied with our results.
...
I am confident that whatever failings our 12 Tom & Jerry cartoons had, they were very close to the H&B originals in appearance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For more insight on these questions, I recommend the entire article: Tom & Jerry: The First Reincarnation (http://genedeitch.awn.com/index.php3?ltype=chapter&chapter=20), written by Gene Deitsch himself. BTW, he even mentions our good friend Pietro... :bosko:

[lislebartman]

I know that this should be a thread of its own, but I'm a bit perturbed, and I'll tell you why...

With a good majority saying that the Gene Deitch T & J cartoons are below average in terms of animation and such, how is it that CN still broadcasts them but they wont show the majority of the latter-day WB shorts (i.e. - Daffy/Speedy)?

While many will claim it is because of Speedy & what he represents, I have heard that CN wont broadcast them because the animation is sub-par. Well, I don't buy that excuse for a moment!!

What do you guys out there in cyberspace think?

[DarthGonzo]

I think CN only shows the Jones and Deitch Tom and Jerry because with only 110 H/B Tom and Jerry cartoons at their disposal, some of which can only be shown after midnight, there really arent all that many Tom and Jerry cartoons to show. Of course CN also probably shows the Jones shorts because they feel he's a god, but I digress.

[Larry T]

Plus, none of the Deitch cartoons feature Mammy :bosko: .

[DR. BELCH]

Tom's master in those atrocious things was a fat, obnoxious, grumbling bald guy with virtually no personality except a mean streak. Dietch scrapped Mammy for that? Plus he has the nerve to say he was faithful to Bill and Joe's work, when those clunking flat monstrosities were a total antithesis of the beauty that was a "Midnight Snack" or an "Ol' Rocking-Chair Tom" or a "Pecos Pest".... :o

[Greg Method]

The alternative would be showing the Filmation shorts...

[Larry T]

Originally posted by Greg Method
The alternative would be showing the Filmation shorts...



Ewwwww..... And here's the sad part: when I used to time-shift videotape the classic T&J's in the early 80s while at work, the program that aired them played EVERYTHING, including the H-B, Deitch, Jones, Filmation, AND latter New H-B cartoons... in trying to get all the really good ones, I inadvertenly probably have every one of those one tape somewhere :(

My FF key on my remote almost fell off!

[chuckamuck43]

Originally posted by DarthGonzo
Of course CN also probably shows the Jones shorts because they feel he's a god

He IS, DarthGonzo, he IS...:)

But now I digress...
Anyway, IMHO the real reason is the one LarryT mentioned - The Deitch cartoons are product (which TV devours!) that needs no editing (no messy racial stereotypes).

[Sogturtle]

My two cents worth (or two scents in the case of Deitch's Tom & Jerry work ;) )

I personally view TWO of the 13 Deitch toons as noteworthy for SOME reason. Iffffff interested, I pick the "Switchin' Kitten" and "Tall In The Trap" because of their ties to the classic Warners studio... The animation and designs are atrocious in all the Deitch output, no two ways about it. Tom's master being turned into an abnoxious, mud-ugly clone of Clint Clobber destroys the films. To compare them in any way to the films turned out by Chuck is bizarre beyond belief. The Jones T & J's are approximately 1000 times better than the Deitch ones, with the Filmation toons being a mere 100 times better than Deitch's output. The 1975 Hanna-Barbera crapola is similarly 100 times WORSE than Gene Deitch at his worst... Whenever I view the Jones period Tom and Jerry's I always differentiate between the real Chuck toons, and those made by Abe Levitow, Ben Washam, Tom Ray, and Jim Pabian. Those by the Chuckster are hands down the funniest (c'mon on most Michael Maltese was his storyman). The Washam toons are next, with the Tom Ray and Jim Pabian following. In poor fifth place for humor are those by Abe Levitow (yes the director of UPA's Mr. Magoo version of "A Christmas Carol".

[J Lee]

IMHO, Dietch had the same problem with the Tom and Jerry cartoons that Rudy Larriva and the Format Film folks had with the Road Runner series a few years later -- an underlying lack of sympathy for both the characters and the type of comedy they represented.

Remember, Larriva, Dietch, et al, came out of UPA in the 1950s, during a time when what little animation criticism there was praised the style and stories of the studio to high heaven, with the implied message that the rest of the Hollywood cartoon output was violent, mindless dreck. (The style may stand up on its own and in context today, but many of the UPA cartoons, especially after John Hubley was forced out, are bland enough to make you long for a marathon of early 1950s Casper the Friendly Ghost cartoons to generate a little excitement. It's certainly not the kind of stuff that could be played in repeated rotation on TV today with any ratings success).

Given UPA's pride in being the anti-Warners and the anti-MGM, and Dietch's changes he made at Terrytoons in the late 50s, it's hard to imagine how he could do a Tom and Jerry series and have either his heart or mind in it. Gene wanted cartoons that were more "intellectual," which is why Arnold Swift's sarcastic dialouge in "The Tom and Jerry Cartoon Kit" can be taken as either a parody of the duo's slapstick violence (like McKimson and Marcus' opening for "A Ham In a Role") and a direct shot by Dietch at MGM for making him have to do this type of cartoon. Why couldn't they just have ordered up some "Munro" cartoons like Paramount eventually did?

The same thing applies to Larriva with Jones' characters; it was a way to pay the rent and the grocery bills, and that's all. So long as the characters looked like the Road Runner and the Coyote (or Tom and Jerry) who cares if they don't act like them or if the stories go against what Bill, Joe and Chuck had created in the previous 20 years?

[Sogturtle]

John~

Very aptly stated!! I like it...

Buuuuut we have to be careful not to stretch the comparison of the Larriva Roadrunners to the Deitch T & J stuff too much. MGM deliberately went the cheapest way possible by hiring (producer Bill Snyder), Deitch and the foreign cartoon studio. Though the stories were written here, the Deitch heavy hand (resentful) and abominable foreign animation resulted in cartoons that are utterly alien.

Whereas when Friz had to sub-contract the Roadrunners out he did go to great pains to be sure they went to a studio staffed by former Warner personell. Annnnnnd that studio (Format) had had to cater to American humor and audience tastes with their original hit program "The Alvin Show", something that Deitch never really did. The fact that (long-ago Jones protege) Rudy Larriva was NOT Chuck Jones (or even Bob McKimson) was not apparent to Friz or the world till after the cartoons were delivered. And you are quite right Larriva seems non-sympathetic to the characters (but then so did Frank Tashlin).

It can furthermore be pointed out that the three Larriva Daffy and Speedy cartoons are funny and work in ways that his Roadrunner toons never came close to. My suspicion is that the success of his Daffy toons can be attributed to his ancient familiarity with the character. And that conversely the failure of his Roadrunners is due to his total unfamiliarity with the Coyote and Roadrunner, and to the extremely short time schedule required and low budgets.

If Deitch had chosen to hire more West-coast storymen for the toons (rather than the East-coast alumni) and TRIED to emulate the originals, then the results MIGHT have been better.

[J Lee]

Tim --

You're right that the Larriva Road Runners overall as less offensive than the Dietch T&Js -- at least Lsrriva's characters don't come across as visually annoying, just stilted, and Lava's music isn't bad when used in McKimson's "Rushing Roulette"; it's just the sheer repetition of the same score through 10 cartoons that grates on the nerves.

The funny thing is, at least with the Format staff if not with Larriva, when you switch gears and go over to the King Features made-for-TV Popeyes that both studios did, the Deitch cartoons come out ahead, IMHO, compared with the Jack Kinney-directed efforts Format put out.

Deitch has the same problem on modeling with Popeye, Olive and Bluto that he had with T&J, and the music still sounds like it was recorded in a lavoratory, but for some reason (possibly being able to work with the full Elzie Segar cast, which was not true for Famous Studios) Deitch and his writers seemed to care more about making these cartoons than he did the Tom and Jerrys, which have a "We're just in it for the money" quality to them. In contrast, Kinney's crew, which included both ex-UPA and Disney staffers (including his brother) are the ones that are just clocking in and clocking out for the paycheck -- the drawings are poor compared with the Kneitel/Paramount made-for-TV efforts, and with only a few exceptions, the stories are weak and repetitive.

The Popeye series may not have reached the level of violence as Hanna-Barbera's series did, but they were playing in the same ballpark. So its interesting that Deitch seemed to show more empathy for the sailor man and his group than he did for the cat and the mouse.

Meanwhile, Format's work with the Road Runner seems to be hurt by misconception of the characters and some UPA-era disdain and apathy, but the drawings aren't that bad. However, their Popeyes have the same "who cares?" attitude Deitch's T&Js exhibit -- they may not have known the characters as well as the people over at Times Square who worked with the sailor for a quarter century, but the biggest problem was they just didn't want to make the effort to breathe any life into them.

[hiphats]

The Deitch/Snyder cartoons may have been par-for-the-course in terms of animation quality, but they were an interesting curio, and still are when viewed today.

In fact, the Deitch/Snyder era brought out what I think is the greatest Tom & Jerry short ever made of all the cartoons made since 1940.

"Carmen Get It!" remains an animation masterpiece. Quality notwithstanding, the short is a true example of the art that was MGM animation. The ongoing antics are there, the slapstick and gags intact...truly this was (and still is) Tom & Jerry's finest hour.

If I had a Top Ten list of the greatest Tom & Jerry shorts ever made, "Carmen Get It!" would be at the top of my list.

If you ever see this again on CN, don't miss it.

[J Lee]

Well, I don't know if I would put it in the "masterpiece" category, but "Carmen Get It" is the best of Deitch's Tom and Jerry output. The gag with the ants as changing musical notes bedevling maestro Tom is original and funny, and the only bad part is that the original MGM animation studio and orchestra could have made the gag go over even better (picture Irv Spence animating a frenzied Tom trying to keep up with Scott Bradley's high speed and ever-changing musical score).

This was the last of Gene's T&Js, so it may have just been a matter of them needing some time to finlly figure out the formula (if at first you don't succeed, try 12 more times...). But the cheap budgets MGM saddled Deitch with still take their toll here.

[lislebartman]

Originally posted by J Lee
Well, I don't know if I would put it in the "masterpiece" category, but "Carmen Get It" is the best of Deitch's Tom and Jerry output.

Like I said in the beginning of this thread, "Carmen Get It" is watchable and possibly the best of the Deitch T & J cartoons. Masterpiece? No, but entertaining.

[Mibbitmaker]

I'm apparently in the minority here (happens alot in my life), but I like the Deitch T&Js. I do think the H/B MGM ones(especially from the '40s) are superior, but, if I'm not making a tape featuring the big-band era's cartoon output (with all the great dese an' dem type animals (Bugs being the ultimate)), then it's fun to watch the Deitch ones once in a while. Even if they don't inspire as many guffaws, I enjoy just watching them for the different style, and I love the sound effects. I remember liking his Popeyes best among the made-for-TV ones.

When I see the Jones T&Js, while I hold them in higher regard than Chuck himself even, I just can't help thinking I wish he'd do these with his own characters instead.

[Matthew Hunter]

I have not seen all of them...or if I have it's been a while. I do like some of them in spite of their quality. "Switchin' Kitten" and "High steaks" are both weird and violent, and I liked both as a kid, still do. They're different, but clever. "Dickie Moe" is also kind of cool, and so is "Calypso Cat". The others I've seen don't impress me...they suck. I mean, the ones I've mentioned are good enough, but the others do nothing for me. I don't tape Tom and Jerry simply because I haven't got the space on tape or the desire to tape CN's edited showings...but I'd be willing to leave a couple Deitch ones off the list. The best Tom and Jerry's were those produced between 1940 and 1952, those following, even by Hanna and Barbera, aren't memorable. Mammy disappears, a bunch of cutesy animal pals for Jerry show up. There are still some great cartoons out of the later H-B collection, but the characters were simplified too much while their surroundings were too elaborate...I like plain and simple cat-chases-mouse and cat-gets-whacked-with-the-broom. Chuck Jones and crew's T&J were not altogether that funny, but the humor is more in the subtle animation...in fact these cartoons are as close to a cross between Claude Cat and Sniffles as you can get. I can't remember which ones Jones did and which ones Washam and Levitow and the rest handled, but they're all interesting anyway. I like them alot, some better than others, and I'd much rather watch those than Deitch's. I have seen the later TV T&J's, my local channel (when they had local channels with syndicated and PD cartoons) used to run the whole lot of T&J variety. I liked some of the Filmation cartoons, particularly those with Droopy, but that was all I cared for in that batch. And I HATE the "Tom and Jerry Kids"...that has to be the single most annoying adaptation of a classic character ever. Yick.
-Matthew

[DarthGonzo]

Yeah, I hate Tom and Jerry kids too. What was Patterson thinking?!

[chuckamuck43]

Originally posted by DarthGonzo
Yeah, I hate Tom and Jerry kids too. What was Patterson thinking?!

"Wow, now I can pay my bills and eat?":)

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by DarthGonzo
Yeah, I hate Tom and Jerry kids too. What was Patterson thinking?!


Originally posted by chuckamuck43

"Wow, now I can pay my bills and eat?":)

Nice :)

Buuuuuut he was even more likely thinking "Well if this is what Joe Barbera and the public REALLY want..."

WE need to remember that Joe and Bill (especially Joe) had a fair number of ideas that even the networks viewed as too ROTTEN to buy and broadcast. Case in point... "The Blackstones"....
Which has never been made, and never ever will!!

Whereas Tom & Jerry Kids was quite rotten, but saleable on the "brandname" of Tom and Jerry. And horrible as it was, twas a big improvement on the Charles Nichols "Tom and Jerry" toons of 1975, which are unequivocally the WORST ever made. Nichols proved in it that he could make rotten material EVEN WORSE. Ray Patterson was very talented but not able to sink to the occasion like Nichols had... :D Kinda akin to the bad Dave Detiege Warner stories of the early Sixties, which the true greats couldn't even salvage.