Tonight's JL Episode: Not For Children?? (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

I was able to talk to Stan Berkowitz (a writer on the series) and he told me tonights JL episode will be one of the most intense half hours from WB Animation ever. And he was serious about it. Go here to read the newspost:

http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=101415

Wow...too instense for children...how cool does that sound??

[The Flash]

My guess: they show Aquaman's hand being cut off. (sounds like in pretty good detail too!) http://community.sierra.com/Images/emoticons/ltdance.gif

[Batman 80]

I love this show!!!!!!!!!!! This means that the Mongul episode should be intense as well.

[Failure]

Aw crap, one of the most intense half hours ever and I have to wait til Friday to see it. :mad:

[Bird Boy]

man I hope my VCR records it!

and flash..you're probably right..they probably show his hand cut off... :rolleyes:

-BB

[The Flash]

http://community.sierra.com/Images/emoticons/laugh.gif

[a69a17]

mera said, "your hands are strong and noble, i'd gladly put my fate in them." or something real close to that.
i would say aquaman is going to lose a hand tonight.

[Ricochet]

Arthur didn't have his hook in Pt. 1? Man, I wasn't paying attention, I guess. :o

[ether_lad]

today, on my way home from bowling, i was psyching myself up for JL tonite. i thought, that hook comes into play somehow...how are they gonna do that with kids watching? should be good tho...i wonder how gory it was will be? hee hee....how sick is that? i'm excited about the possibility of cartoon blood (chances are there won;t be any of that...but still...) :D

ether_lad

[Red]

What age are you saying

[MattL.]

Myself I'm not of the mind that gore=maturity or quality and I fail to understand people who do view it that way.

Why the term "for adults" has to mean gratuitous use of blood, sex, or nihilism is beyond me.

While I'm all for them making the episode intense, I hope they dont go out of their way to alienate younger viewers.

One of the greatest things about the TAS stuff is that it invited everyone to the party. Wether you were 8 or 80 there was something for you in these shows.

Which is alot better than the mainline comics have done in years since they decided to go the "mature" route and cut the next generation of readers out from under themselves.

If I were parent, I wouldn't let my child get anywhere near the mainline comics, but I would gladly let them watch the work of Bruce Timm and co. and be willing to help them through any tough spots.

[The Guard]

You don't think they'd EVER consider Aquaman's son dying?

[Maxie Zeus]

I don't think we're saying that gore = quality, or that adult treatment requires violence. At least, I would never say that.

The hand/hook thing is just the obvious item to speculate about. Furthermore, Berkowitz is warning about "kids," and such warnings are usually referring to sex or violence.

I guess we'll know in a few hours. :cool:

[The Flash]

No gore does not equal quality, but if they're going to have Aquaman's hand be cut off, then let's do it right. I don't like seeing people being stabbed and no wonds or blood be shown beause it might offend people. It's pretty lame to have something big happen, but only showomg the viewer the shadow of what is happening. ...If you're gunna do it, do it right. Just my 2 cents.

[kid_flash]

I'm with Flash. Gore for the sake of gore is stupid and a cheap technique to get movie sales. But if you're gonna have Aquaman's hand get whacked off (please please PLEASE!!!!) then I don't want it done Luke Skywalker style.

Intense? Most intense WBA's ever done? I love CN, man, BRING IT ON!

[kid_flash]

Oh, and is anyone gonna take Stan up on his suggestion to watch it on a big TV? Me, I got a big ol' 30-inch TV sitting in the next room. This is gonna rule.

[metaphysician]

Originally posted by kid_flash
I'm with Flash. Gore for the sake of gore is stupid and a cheap technique to get movie sales. But if you're gonna have Aquaman's hand get whacked off (please please PLEASE!!!!) then I don't want it done Luke Skywalker style.

Intense? Most intense WBA's ever done? I love CN, man, BRING IT ON!

It wouldn't make sense for Luke-s stump to gush blood. The lightsabre would have cauterized the wound instantly.

[Terminatah]

Cartoons that don't realistically portray the effects of violence (blood, intense suffering, etc) are the most dangerous thing for kids. You won't see too many kids playing around with dangerous weapons if they understand the consequences. Aquaman's pain should be so blinding and severe that no child will ever want to mess with blades for the rest of his life.

-Terminatah

[The Flash]

I totally agree with that, Terminatah! That's something a lotta people need to realize too, but I'll shut up and keep the politics outta this! http://community.sierra.com/Images/emoticons/gum.gif

[The Guard]

I think Maxie's right. You're all saying that 'Intense half hour" has to do with Aquaman's hook hand. But it's possible we could see a really violent battle or something...

[The Flash]

http://community.sierra.com/Images/emoticons/idea.gif ...or both? :)

[Bird Boy]

Originally posted by The Flash
http://community.sierra.com/Images/emoticons/idea.gif ...or both? :)

Heaven help us! :eek:

Hehe. I have high expectations for this ep..and since Bat's was in the last one..maybe he'll be in this one as well..ah..the most violent JL ep yet, with Batman in it...sa-weet.. :D

Considering what batman and Tim Drake went through in ROTJ..this must be, in the words of Michael J. Fox from BTTF:

"Heavy!"

:cool:

-BB

[Mr. Obsession]

I've got just over four hours until Part Two airs and I want it now! :D


While I have no idea what they'll show, I'd speculate that Aquaman loosing a hand is the most likely possibility. Of course way back when they did say that Aquaman's wife and son would play a big role in the Aquaman story. Maybe it's me but they didn't seem to do all that much in Part One...

Who knows, maybe tonight will show us what version of RotJ CN will be airing when they get around to it.

[ether_lad]

i think perhaps my post earlier in the thread has led others to think i'm all about the maiming and killing and the other stuff. actually, i'm not. i guess my point was, "i wonder how far the cartoon network will take this knowing they have different restrictions than the WB." just the idea that aquaman loses a had is traumatic enough...i really doubt they will show it happening. but...what if they do? i don't think there's such a thing as cartoon blood, is there?

and INTENSE can have a lot of meanings....this episode might just be edge-of-your-seat exciting. but also, there's a reason why the show is shown so late....

ether_lad
"it was the ether that knocked her out cold"

[The Flash]

Originally posted by ether_lad
i don't think there's such a thing as cartoon blood, is there?

MOTP had blood in it. Aswell as a few eps, if that's what you mean. Lots of Anime stuff has cartoon blood. (even though I don't watch them....)

[The Guard]

Told ya so...

WOW.

[The Flash]

They hide it, but hell!!! That animation!!!!!!!! http://community.sierra.com/Images/emoticons/wow.gif

[James Harvey]

So was the episode what you thought it would be? Didja all guess right?

Another thing, just becuase the show is gonna be "intense" doesn't mean it's going to be violent or gory. The content just may be a bit to mature for kids. There's a reason the show is in the 9:30pm slot.

[Stardust]

maaaaaaaaaaaaaan how intense!!!!! wooooooo. wow. =O i loved it! i was sad that he cut his hand off, but MAN that is so awesome how they show his devotion to his son!!! that's so cooooool! i was bawling when i saw that he was going to cut off his hand...my roommate thinks i'm a wierdo now, lol. i loved the fight scenes..... :p and how aquaman didn't even bother saving his brother.......dang. i thought it was a little too quick tho, having thor swing the daggar around like that and then all of a sudden he's hanging at the edge of the ice bridge. but still, it was an awesome show! i can't wait for more! ^_^

[Figaro]

I saw it. I loved it. And I gotta say I was extremely pleased with the way "it" was handled. They couldn't have presented it better. I love it when the audience is allowed to put two and two together by themselves.

By thy side,

Figaro

[James Harvey]

Any comments on the "intensity" of the episode? Do you agree with Berkowitz's comments? I'd like to use some of the reactions and replies in the newspage tomorrow in a JL update.

[Samhaine]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
Any comments on the "intensity" of the episode? Do you agree with Berkowitz's comments? I'd like to use some of the reactions and replies in the newspage tomorrow in a JL update.
I'd definately have to say it was intense, emotionally. I was actually worried that Arthur's son was going to die. That is how mature the episode was; no one was sure if everything was going to turn out all right. The bloodied stump, the surgery, then when he let Orm plummet to his death - took me for a ride, I'll tell ya that.

Wahoo!!!! Post 400!!! (and anyone can remember from the old boards that I never even neared this high a count, so this surely is a momentous occasion!) Sorry, I'll stop now.

[Jowy Blight]

Any comments on the "intensity" of the episode?

Uh, I've seen things with more "intensity", but I found it a pretty cool episode. The best episode so far. :)

[Calhoun07]

It was tense, and very dramatic. The scene where Aquaman cut off his hand had me on the edge of my seat, the hairs on the back of my neck standing up! This was only second to the death of Robin's parents in BTAS.

[Joe Tully]

I would probably agree with Berkowitz. I dunno if I'd mind if I had kids (heaven forbid!) and they saw that ep., but I could definitely see how some parents would take it badly if their kid saw Aquaman let his brother die like that. The removal of the hand, while not actually shown, could've bothered some little kids too. Not that I think that would necessarily be a bad thing for kids to see, mind you. I mean, it seems to have bothered one or two posters at this board, and as far as I can tell, they seem to be coping well and going on with their lives. ;)

[Figaro]

Yes, I agree it was intense, the animation was fantastic, I ALWAYS watch JL on a big TV, and I probably wouldn't show it to very small children. But older children and teenagers, yeah. Like I said in my above post, I am very pleased with the way the situation was handled, and the fact that it was not violence for the sake of violence, that they showed THOUGHT and CONSEQUENCES of the decision.

By thy side,

Figaro

[The Flash]

my thoughts:
Intense is right! I didn't notice one mistake in the animation! The camera angles added to the excitement-- MEGA! It was a non stop battle scene the whole episode!! .....I can see why Stan said it wasn't for kids. The Aquaman and son tied up scene wasn't for kids, at all. I actually thought his son might die (ya never know!) 5 bloody stars from me!

[Joe Tully]

Originally posted by bloodone

I'd definately have to say it was intense, emotionally. I was actually worried that Arthur's son was going to die. That is how mature the episode was; no one was sure if everything was going to turn out all right.

I think that is an excellent way to put it. Often, while watching a show like this, I can be calm about it because I know that Batman always wins in the end and defuses the bomb and beats up the villain. Here, we really weren't so sure about that, especially because we know that Aquaman and his family aren't going to be recurring characters and that anything could've happened to them, and the show wouldn't have been affected at all. That, plus the great writing (can you get more suspenseful than having the main character slowly floating towards lava? I doubt it!) made this episode absolutely compelling.

[The Green Hornet]

this was perhaps the most intense cartoon episode since i saw STAS Apokalyps NOW! where superman's friend died and he went berzerk!

I wasn't sure quite what would happen-- whether it would be the lava that took "it" or if it would be torn off-- but I really felt for Aquaman-- very emotionally charged and well delivered episode

Orm isnt quite the villian that Darkseid is, but overall this was a great story arc!

[Calhoun07]

I just wanted to add that there is currently nothing as good in prime time. This show is even better than Smallville and Enterprise, as much as I love those shows. I am just so glad this show is on in prime time. I wish BTAS and Batman Beyond had been prime time series, too. From the animation, to the characterization, to the action and the drama, this series is making me glad to say I am a fan of animation!

[Lucho]

Babies have been threatened before, and villains often fall into bottomless pits only to return later, both are very extreme plot contrivances and should not be used gratuitously, I don't think that was the case here, where they were key points to the story and character development.

A hero put in a situation where the only hope to save his family and self is to inflict permanent self mutilation? Now this I've never seen before on a cartoon of this nature. Heroes are often depicted risking their lives to save others, but we know they are going in prepared. Aquaman had no superpower to prepare him for what he was about to do, an unforgettable scene, as all have pointed out, so intense I would classify it adult content (and it had nothing to do with blood.)

[James Harvey]

Thanks for all the quotes, gang. Expect to see some of these used tomorrow in the newspage updates!

[cysurf]

Hey part 2 was as violent, if not more violent, than Return of The Joker. How is this possible after the big fuss over ROTJ's violence?

[James Harvey]

Originally posted by cysurf
Hey part 2 was as violent, if not more violent, than Return of The Joker. How is this possible after the big fuss over ROTJ's violence?

Simple. The crew behind JL didn't have to go through the same process with ROTJ. Movies usually come under more scrutiny than shows, and with BB aimed at children, ROTJ came under the knife harder. Plus, CBN has much, much, much, much more lenient broadcasting standards than KWB.

[Killtacular]

Can I be the bad example?

Tonight's Justice League was painful. Not painful in an emotional level, but painful to sit through.

First of all, to anyone that isn't blinded by their comic fanism, this episode should be incredibly easy to predict. I knew that Aquaman's hubby would save the heroes the moment they were hooked up to drown. I knew Aquaman and his son would escape the death trap.

Second of all, kids between the ages of 6-11 watch Adult Swim, including Cowboy Bebop, so when they say "too intense for children", I expect them to mean it. But in no way was I at all stunned, shocked, or even slightly wary of my little sister walking in. I mean, maybe if they actually showed him slicing his hand off, or showed blood dripping from the wound, I might reconsider.

And "intense animation" is hard to take seriously when the entire show runs at a lethargic 12 frames per second(outside of scene panning) Even simple things like walking apparently seems to tiring for the animators, and Aquaman walking down to the controls of the machine inside the ice cap was incredibly choppy.

JL doesn't come close to the most intense half-hour of WB animation. Watch Freakazoid sometime. Heck, watch Looney Tunes. "Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarfs" is the most intense animation from the Warner lot, and nothing has yet to overcome it, and by no means did this episode do that.

With each episode, I find myself less willing to keep up. Unlike Batman:TAS, and Superman:TAS, which DIDN'T treat the viewers like MORONS, this show recycles dialogue from practically every kids action cartoon in existence, rather than requiring actual effort from the writing staff. Having greatly enjoyed the maturity of Batman and Superman, where intense violence and sophisticated writing were the NORM, this show is beginning to offend me. Having to put a warning on a missing hand is an insult to my intelligence.

- Matt

(at least The Flash wasn't in it this time)

[Calhoun07]

Being somebody who isn't all that familar with JLA and related characters back stories in DC Comics, I didn't notice the recycled stories, but now I know they are recycling the stories from comic books, I am disappointed. I want more. After all, this series is making me interested in the comic books. Why would I want to go and seek out back issues and trade paperbacks only to find stories I've already seen on the show?

[The Flash]

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
(at least The Flash wasn't in it this time)

HEY! :mad: http://community.sierra.com/Images/emoticons/mad.gif

-
-
-

Just kiddin'.......I guess :D

[Batman 80]

I don't mind the recycled stories since they always seem to have a slightly different twists to them. I was very impressed with the episode. Can you imagine how good the Mongul and Injustice Gang episodes are gonna be? Mr. Timm and Company keep up the excellent work!

[Tim Drake]

I'm less optimistic that most I guess. I liked some part and not others. Watching Aquaman choose to cut off his hand was good. But I was disappointed with the shot of his stump wrapped in cloth. The cloth was red but not blood red. Kinda a cop out in my opinion. I would have preferred to see a white rag covering his stump with traces of blood at the bottom. Also, I swear his brother actually sliced his Aquaman's chest with the knife. Does he have invulnerable skin like Superman?? It seemed odd that there was absolutely no blood from the knife slash.


And I agree with Matt Wilson the animation is inconsistent. Well parts of the fight scene were very fluidly animated, other parts were not. When Aquaman approaches the doomsday machine the animation was extremely choppy. The dialouge wasn't too bad, but Aquaman's wife simply can not act. Comes off as a mix of the new Wonder Woman and Queen Amidala. I dunno. It was still a good episode but I honestly was happier with In Blackest Night's ending. Do I complain too much??
I just feel the show doesn't compare to Batman, Superman and batman Beyond. Well maybe Batman Beyond.

[Kal-el]

This was an intense episode! When I say intense, I don't mean just violence or sex. This ep covered many topics, from extreme self sacrifice, to a story that could have been told during the times of King Henry VIII or Loius XIV. The emotional and psychological intensity was there. The family intensity was there. The drama was there, plus the action. Everything was done well, but in a respectful manner.
I was impressed.

[Supermon]

Definetely the best ep so far, but I was let down by it after all the "intense" hype/buildup we had goin here.
I thought any kid watching it would easily be able to handle the content.

If there are kids who were shocked by it, then I hope thier parents let them stop watching the 24/7 smurf network soon.

My main problem with this ep were the members of the League themselves. At this point you can totally predict what each one will do during any fight sequence.

Wonder Woman - bounce lasers off braclets

Green Lantern - make a force shield

Jonn - let enemy faze through him

Superman - get beat down

thats it. over and over. just watch

Seriously though, Superman is just so unbelievablely weak. The whole time they were trapped under water I just kept thinking, " Don't let Mera save them, Let Supes take control." Oh well.
Maybe we can just use the old, "Well, he hadn't seen the sun in like 10 whole minutes" excuse like they did in Secret Origins.

I also rolled my eyes when Batman asked GL if his ring could protect him from the radiation, John's reply, "We'll see."
Well ok, considering that the power of the ring depends on the strengh of will of the wearer, I would think John would want to be a bit more confident.

[Toddman]

Originally posted by cysurf
Hey part 2 was as violent, if not more violent, than Return of The Joker. How is this possible after the big fuss over ROTJ's violence?

Just my opinion here, but I didn't think that the level of violence shown in "Enemy Below" pt 2 was even close to the violence depicted (or implied) in ROTJ, even the edited version. In ROTJ, we see the forceful brainwashing and torture of a teenage boy, and the death of the villian by electrocution (or gunshot wound). Unedited also shows Bonk shot to death.

The JL episode has an off camera severing of a limb, true, but I guess I don't find that as violent as an actual death. And I know that Orm fell into the pit (and his own brother LET him fall) but remember, Robin didn't just let the Joker die, he actually killed him.

And it seems the censors are more hesitant to show any blood and use the word "kill" than they were in the TNBSA days. I guess the TV execs are just more careful these days, even though some of the more intense and graphic images and dialogue were used on Saturday morning TV in the past, while JL is on primetime cable.

Toddman

[PZ Dude]

I may be way off base here but I think the violence that they were talking about was not the hand being removed. It was Auquaman letting his brother fall into the pit. Good guys are not suppose to do that. The hand being removed to save himself and his child were hard but just standing there letting his brother die was harder. With his hand is actions were heroic and commented it upon as being so. Letting his brother die is something you really don't see in a cartoon.

[kid_flash]

THat was really intense. The only thing WBA's done that's more intense is ROTJ uncut, and maybe MOTP. Other than that--wow. Aquaman whacking his hand off was awesome, that whole scene just had me on the edge of my seat.

And, of course, Aquaman not saving his brother. That's a huge thing, and is totally Aquaman. He'll always do what's best for Atlantis, even if it means getting rid of family.

Wow...can't wait 'til Friday, I gotta see that again.

[rmarti3926]

In all my cartoon watching experience, I never seen something as intense as this! This could be THE hallmark of WB animation (Looney Tunes INCLUDED)

This proves that Warner Bros is really the Hardy Boys (from the WWF) of the entertainment industry - they're daredevil risktakers.

And with Adult Swim and Cowboy Bebop on thier slate, Cartoon Network is going all out with this episode to prove that animation is NOT for kids only.

I'm glad I'm a true die-hard animation fanatic! LONG LIVE BRUCE TIMM!

[JasonBlood]

. . . but it still pales in comparison to the flashback scene in Batman Beyond: ROTJ. The Aquaman scene where he cuts off his hand to save his son, and the scene where he reclaims his kingdom from his brother were certainly some of the coolest and most dark moments thus far in the DC Animated world, and falls just ahead of the "Over the Edge" Batman episode, and the scene in Superman's "Legacy" episode where he defeats Darkseid (damn, that was a cool scene all around, with Superman going ballistic on Apokolips and its inhabitants. Let's hope next season will yeild a similar show if JL brings back the New Gods saga).

Still, the scene from BB: ROTJ where RObin is tortured and brainwashed, leading up to the death of the Joker has to be THE most haunting, heartbreaking piece of Warnre Bros. animation ever. It still gives me chills when I think about it. My only hope is that JL can find a storyline that totally pushes the show and DC animated universe into even greater heights, and given what we've seen thus far, I have no doubt it will happen. :wakko:

[Samhaine]

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
Second of all, kids between the ages of 6-11 watch Adult Swim, including Cowboy Bebop, so when they say "too intense for children", I expect them to mean it. But in no way was I at all stunned, shocked, or even slightly wary of my little sister walking in. I mean, maybe if they actually showed him slicing his hand off, or showed blood dripping from the wound, I might reconsider.

Just because kids are watching AS doesn't mean they should. That's the big difference. It was supposed to be emotionally intense, not visually intense.

And the Flash rules.

[The Mad Hatter]

That's a good point... ROTJ had great intensity, and I've always felt that, at least as visceral action goes, the action scenes World's Finest part 3 were almost off-the-charts intense. Still, I'd have to say that this JL episode was pretty intense too!

[Heehaw]

In terms of animation, the 2nd part was better, though it still lacks. The "intense" scene was cool, though Robin's Reckoning has it beat. I've lost all faith in the series, though I'll continue to watch just because it's better than most of what's out there.

[The Guard]

What the hell did you WANT from this show???

Wow...

[st63z]

I missed Monday's showing, but hey, I'm not shy 'bout spoilers :)

I was thinking, it seems to somewhat be the case that with JL, Timm & co. are embracing more of the classical (this so called "Golden Age" that I hear about?) comics ideals and character designs. It's more apparent in the visual looks of the characters (old-school style), but sometimes also with the storylines and plots -- while they're certainly exciting and up-to-date for the most part, I'm guessing that Timm pays more homage here in JL whereas he was more liberal with his writing crew in previous series?

Maybe some people don't take to this style... (aside from the animation criticism, which is a whole other issue)

[Batman 80]

I don't care what anybody says. I enjoy this cartoon. Its the best on TV and Timm and company are doing an excellent job. Timm's work on Superman,Batman,Batman Beyond, and now the JL has gotten me interested comics once again. Not only that, but I love the way the characters in these shows are designed. His style is simple but still detailed at the same time. But they still look so cool.

[Heehaw]

What the hell did you WANT from this show???

Consistent, high quality animation, a real score as opposed to the synthetic tripe we have now, the return of Shirley Walker/Alan Burnett/Paul Dini/Eric Radomski, original storylines and better writing/dialogue on the secondaries, good editing(to much jumping around and poor transitions), secondary characters that don't sound like they came from the original X-Men series from the early 90s(meaning exaggerated, cliched, silly or stereotypical voices), good directors like Kevin Altieri and Boyd Kirkland. Enough of Dan Riba or whoever they have these days. Riba's lackluster shows outweigh his good stuff, the elimination of JL's all purpose space/watership or whatever it's called--it's out of the 70s/80s and just silly, tradition coloring as opposed to the computer stuff, the use of creative angles and less of the straight on stuff we've been subjected to since TNBA.

If Superman apologizes one more time or says he's a friend to someone, I'll scream.

It's only been 7 episodes, it has to pick up. Where's TMS?

Timm and crew have already proven they can do much better. Given the fact that they are on CN and more than likely have a big enough budget, I would think they could produce a series that was as good if not better than what has come before, in terms of techinical issues anyway.

[knightraven2]

Still, the scene from BB: ROTJ where RObin is tortured and brainwashed, leading up to the death of the Joker has to be THE most haunting, heartbreaking piece of Warnre Bros. animation ever. It still gives me chills when I think about it. My only hope is that JL can find a storyline that totally pushes the show and DC animated universe into even greater heights, and given what we've seen thus far, I have no doubt it will happen. :wakko: [/B][/QUOTE]
I totally agree. I was very disquieted for some time after watching that. Whether Tim intentionally kills the Joker or not is not an issue. To think, they took a child, stripped him, conducted evil experiments on him, poisioned him, and Harley helped to break his mind. No rescue in the nick of time, no good guys persevere. Robin loses. His identity, and the identites of all the rest of the bat family compromised. His body, mangled and twisted into a parody of the Joker's. And his mind, broken almost beyond retrieval, only able to giggle as the tears rolled down his face.
God, that was so horrifying. The Aquaman scene was intense, but it didn't actually disquiet me like the RoTJ scene did.
I can never look at 'Mistah J ' or Harley the same way again.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Heehaw
Consistent, high quality animation, a real score as opposed to the synthetic tripe we have now, the return of Shirley Walker/Alan Burnett/Paul Dini/Eric Radomski, original storylines and better writing/dialogue on the secondaries,

Etc.

In short, you want BTAS back.

Now, I yield to no one in my love of BTAS. And if forced to choose between BTAS and JL, I would choose BTAS.

But there is such a thing as letting the perfect be the enemy of good, which is what I think your criticism amounts to.

Look, the show is working under somem pretty tough constraints. It has to balance 7 superheros, at three of whom may even be overendowed with power and potential. This means that (a) it has to give time and attention to a large number of characters who are (b) working as a team, not as a group of individuals while (c) not slowing down the action or plot of (d) a story that is of an epic scale commensurate with the number and powers of the heroes.

Like Dr. Johnson said of the dog that could stand on its back legs: The wonder is not that the thing is done well, but that the thing is done at all. And in fact Timm and his collaborators do JL quite well enough. (JL is indistinguishable from the Superfriends in your estimation? I think that shows you haven't watched Superfriends in too long a time. I would urge you to watch SF again, but I wouldn't want on my conscience the pain it would inflict.)

JL is an epic adventure, not an intimate pyschological show like BTAS. It looks (to me, at any rate) that we are being given a bubble-gum, popcorn kind of a series. Such a style may not be to your taste, but to kvetch that it is one of one style and genre and not another is a bit like pouting that a good dog makes for a poor giraffe: no reasonble person expects it to.

IMO, complaints about the absence of crew members are churlish. It has been years since Radomski, Altieri and Kirkland were associated with the Timm-produced shows. That is because they have other interests now. If you can complain that Altieri is no longer a director with WBA, I can complain about the absence of input from David Lynch or Joel Coen.

As for the assertion that Timm and his collaborators have a sufficient budget to produce a show up to your standards: Are you privy to budget information about JL? I don't know what the budget for the show is, and so would hesitate to assert that it is large enough to meet some particular standard. It may be that Timm has a plentiful budget and so could do better work. But it is equally possible that his budget is actually smaller than what he had on BTAS, and that only with great talent and cunning has he been able to squeeze out the quality we have seen. Don't be so quick to make judgements based on knowledge that you lack.

This doesn't mean that you should watch or like the show. We all have different opinions. In fact, I concur more than a few of your criticisms: much of the dialogue is mundane, and even awful in spots. I too don't care for the digital coloring. Given the nature of the show, the scores could be more full-throated. These seem to me legitimate and trenchant criticisms, precisely because they take the show as it stands and point to obvious areas of improvement-- rather than comparing the show to some abstract ideal and finding it wanting.

[Killtacular]

My complaint is that almost every single line is borrowed from a pre-existing cartoon series.

How many times do we have to hear "Nya nya, missed me!" or "This does not look good." before we throw things at our TVs in frustration?

Are the writers really doing much work at all? Even Superman had writing that wasn't watered down... it wasn't "psychological", but it was mature, it knew who it was targetted to.

Justice League, like Samurai Jack, tries to tackle too varied a demographic.. the result is overused, cliché dialogue, generic action fights. It isn't helped by the synth music. Come on! For an "epic" show like this, you've got to get an orchestra! Not every synth musician is the next Venable. The electronic music doesn't take any benefit from its synth surroundings like Samurai Jack's music does. If you're going to go with an orchestral sound, GET AN ORCHESTRA.

[Heehaw]

Look, the show is working under somem pretty tough constraints. It has to balance 7 superheros, at three of whom may even be overendowed with power and potential. This means that (a) it has to give time and attention to a large number of characters who are (b) working as a team, not as a group of individuals while (c) not slowing down the action or plot of (d) a story that is of an epic scale commensurate with the number and powers of the heroes.

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with music, animation quality, or original writing. The writers are giving us stories we've seen a million times. They are predictable and sometimes just plain silly. I fail to believe that the writers working in TV land are so incompetent that they can't give us a halfway original storyline. So far we've had an alien invasion(ala Independence Day and a thousand other films), a kangaroo court story w/surprise cover up/set up twist, and a fish out of water(literally) invasion/power struggle plotline with an "intense" moment of sacrifice. I've seen all of this before. I realize this is an American animated series, but come on now. We can do better than this.

They also need to stop using cheap animation studios like Koko. They aren't as bad as our good friends, Akom Productions, thank goodness. Ahh...good ol' Akom...


JL is an epic adventure, not an intimate pyschological show like BTAS. It looks (to me, at any rate) that we are being given a bubble-gum, popcorn kind of a series. Such a style may not be to your taste, but to kvetch that it is one of one style and genre and not another is a bit like pouting that a good dog makes for a poor giraffe: no reasonble person expects it to.

I love popcorn, but that doesn't mean that the writing has to be poor and old hat. I'd consider BTAS "The Demon's Quest" to be an epic popcorn type of a story. It has both beautiful music and superb animation(esp. part 1). I'm sure the writers could come up with a plot that combines the large number of characters with this type of "feel". The anime series, "Cowboy Bebop" has a semi-large cast. That animation is the best I've ever seen in a TV series and the stories are fantastic. Of course, we're talking about Japan here they are the masters of consistent, well animated production.


IMO, complaints about the absence of crew members are churlish. It has been years since Radomski, Altieri and Kirkland were associated with the Timm-produced shows. That is because they have other interests now. If you can complain that Altieri is no longer a director with WBA, I can complain about the absence of input from David Lynch or Joel Coen.

The world of animation is a small one. If Timm wanted them, I'm sure he could get them. Money talks.

As for the Superfriends. No, I'd have to admit that that was much worse than this, but at times it reminds me of it. The most obvious example, for me, was in the 2nd Green Lantern episode when the pirate attacks Supes and Jonn. The angle used to show the interior of the antagonist's ship looked very 80s. The color, shading and the spinning animation used when he lost control of his ship was unforgivably cheesy. This is, of course, an extreme example. If they would adopt a less "straight on" approach to the compositions, that would be a huge improvement. TBNA used a straight on approach and I hated it, though I still liked the series. Chalk this up to poor directing.

I guess I just need to lower my expectations. I've spent 9 years watching BTAS and then this comes along. It's a huge step backwards, though I guess one can't top perfection.

[Killtacular]

They can't top low expectations either. I'm amused.

[The Mad Hatter]

The world of animation is a small one. If Timm wanted them, I'm sure he could get them. Money talks.

You make it sound like Timm has absolute power... he doesn't. If he did, ROTJ wouldn't have been butchered. Honestly, all animation creators WANT to use the best animation houses, but they can't because they can't afford it. I wouldn't criticize him for not using TMS unless you are able to take a look at his budget (provided to him by the grace of a corporation that, like all the rest, puts profits above all else), itemize all the costs, look at the cost of TMS animation vs. KOKO animation, and then try to reconcile the two.

And honestly, KOKO is pretty darn good, as far as TV animation goes.


The anime series, "Cowboy Bebop" has a semi-large cast. That animation is the best I've ever seen in a TV series and the stories are fantastic.

Four regular characters is "semi-large?" That's the same number TNBA had.

Really, the thing to keep in mind is this: JL is NOT B:TAS. If it were, it would be called B:TAS. The characters are different, the mood is different, and the scope is different. With all the superpowered folks in there, naturally you would expect more senses-shattering grandeur rather than psychological moodiness. What I'm trying to say is, judge the show for what it is, not how it differs from B:TAS. Is JL perfect? Of course not. Could the dialogue be better? I'd say so, in fact that's one of my gripes. But I've come to enjoy the show overall, even though it really is radically different than B:TAS.

Expecting Timm and the others to keep creating the same thing over and over (the Batman series) without trying something new (the JL series) is to put unfair restraints on him as an artist. Yes, I'd say expectations are a problem... try to judge the show on its own merits, not what it happens to be "missing" from B:TAS.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Heehaw
Yeah, but that has nothing to do with music, animation quality, or original writing. The writers are giving us stories we've seen a million times.

And my point was that they are operating under severe handicaps that tend to constrain the kind of stories they can tell. In BTAS Batman could save Gotham from the Joker's A-bomb ("Harlequinade") and he could stymie Mr. Freeze's vendetta against Ferris Boyle ("Heart of Ice") and he help save and reform a gangland czar ("It's Never Too Late"). Would any of these work as JL plots? No, because we'd be wondering what's wrong with the JL heroes that it takes 7 of them to handle such a crisis.

You need an earth-shaking crisis if you're going to bring mulitple superheroes into play, and there's not an enormous amount of variety to the plotlines that revolve around such crises. The originality is mostly going to have to be confined to their treatments: in the "business" that goes on while they're out saving the universe.

You mention "The Demon's Quest," and that's a perfect case in point. Surely the old plot about the megalomaniac trying to destroy humanity is old and cliched. Fu Manchu's been trying it for a hundred years, and even Jules Verne's Capt. Nemo wasn't the first antihero with a grudge against modernity. It was good because of the detailed work inside of the plot. And I think JL is batting pretty well. INB was the only episode that left me on balance unhappy.


The most obvious example, for me, was in the 2nd Green Lantern episode when the pirate attacks Supes and Jonn. The angle used to show the interior of the antagonist's ship looked very 80s. The color, shading and the spinning animation used when he lost control of his ship was unforgivably cheesy. This is, of course, an extreme example. If they would adopt a less "straight on" approach to the compositions, that would be a huge improvement. TBNA used a straight on approach and I hated it, though I still liked the series. Chalk this up to poor directing.

Things like this I do think are fair criticisms, precisely because they point out exactly where and how the show could be made stronger than it is, instead of comparing it to some other show that did, well, everything better. I'm with you in thinking that based on what we've seen BTAS is the better show. But BTAS was better than everything out there! :)

[Batman 80]

While the show has its flaws, its still the best cartoon out there now. No cartoon is perfect. Cowboy Bebop is one of my favorite animes and it has flaws as well. No cartoon is "perfect". Besides, we haven't seen the whole season yet so its possible that the animation and plots get much better for those who are complaining about it now. I personally like this cartoon and I am also thankful that Mr. Timm and company bought us this series.

[DerekPowers]

well after a week of waiting i finally saw the enemy below part 2. this was probably my favorite story arc so far. as far as stan berkowitz's comments, i dont know about that, he hyped it little more than it was. it was definately intense, but too intense for young kids and the most dramatic 1/2 hour wb animation ever made (that last ones not an exact quote, but he said something along those lines), i'd have to dissagree.

there were definately btas/tnba eps that were far more intense and dramatic, and much more adult for the youngens, like "its never too late", "over the edge", "mad love" and "never fear". i mean, the cutting off of the hand was great, but it wasnt even shown. i'd definately say batgirl falling from a skyscrapper onto a cop car, the whole dealing w/ drugs in its never too late, and batman choking scarecrow at the end of never fear, were much more intense than that scene. but it was a great scene, actually having that baby in danger was very dramatic.

overall, great ep, great action and pacing, and great animation (well, for jl that is). this show is really developing nicely. i loved aquaman's design and meras. oh, and aquaman letting his bro die like that was pretty grim, but we've seen deaths like that all the time in btas. oh, and did anyone notice ww's comment when they were in that water tank "we'll drown" said like they were having birthday cake or something. i'm still waiting for her voice acting to improve in those areas. peace.

[Heehaw]

And my point was that they are operating under severe handicaps that tend to constrain the kind of stories they can tell.

Which are...it almost sounds like you work on the inside. The last I heard, creativity wasn't stifled by money...oh we're talking about Hollywood.


Cowboy Bebop: Four regular characters is "semi-large?" That's the same number TNBA had.

And it's semi-large. If 7, in JL, is considered large, then 4 is semi-large. There are a ton of extras within each episode, and there are 5 characters...Ein..haha..he's a minor major but I'm just being anal. :) Major animation, major stories, great stuff. I hold it equal to BTAS.


Cowboy Bebop is one of my favorite animes and it has flaws as well.

It's perfect....for me, anyway.


You need an earth-shaking crisis if you're going to bring mulitple superheroes into play, and there's not an enormous amount of variety to the plotlines that revolve around such crises. The originality is mostly going to have to be confined to their treatments: in the "business" that goes on while they're out saving the universe.

That still doesn't mean that the storylines have to be those that I have seen in other various movies and shows. There's more to write about other than alien invasion, comets, meteors, or whatever other cliches there are out there. If they are going to write about this stuff, they should at least try to figure out somekind of fresh approach to it. The writer(s) are simply regurgitating that which has been done before. Of course, this is Hollywood, the epitamy of uncreativity.


You mention "The Demon's Quest," and that's a perfect case in point. Surely the old plot about the megalomaniac trying to destroy humanity is old and cliched

Sure, it's been done before, but it was done in a fresh way. It was entertaining and didn't have any fatal flaws(for me). It was technically superior to alot of the other shows and was just epic in nature and feel. Personally, I don't think JL has been very detailed within the actual stories...certainly no epics. They are highly predictable and have yet to impress me. They are essentially "by the numbers". Basically, lazy writing.

Enemy Below 2 was probably my favorite simply because they pushed the limit of American animation. The amputation and Aquaman allowing his brother to fall is something you don't see much in the US. Now if they can maintain that, improve the technical stuff, and give us something fresh, then I'll be much less grumpy when it comes to this show.

[Heehaw]

but we've seen deaths like that all the time in btas. oh

Which ones are those? The only characters that died in BTAS were the two twins from Two Face part 2. Everyone else was accounted for. Clayface bought the farm but they brought him back in TNBA. The guy that "died" in Vertigo was brought back by Gordon in the scene after he supposedly drowned. Of course, Joker died alot, but that's just tradition. Of course, who knows, Aquaman's brother could return next season. You know how animation is. :)

[Kathy Kane]

I was quite surprised that Aquaman let his brother die.
Also the scene where he cuts his hand off, was intense but not as intense as some of the stuff from ROTJ.
Say is it just me or is GL starting to lighten up?? :D
One thing that bothered me was where was the other members, during the epsiode, like the Flash or Hawkgirl. I guess the writers of the show could only handle four members at a time.
In all I liked it, but I'd like to see some other villians, like Lex, Joker and Brainiac.

call me kane.

[The Mad Hatter]

You'll get your Lex and Joker very, very soon, I promise... they'll be spreading Injustice For All. ;)

[Naraht]

Originally posted by Kathy Kane

One thing that bothered me was where was the other members, during the epsiode, like the Flash or Hawkgirl. I guess the writers of the show could only handle four members at a time.

Well...in the span of 1/2 an hour it's really hard to juggle 7 main characters, a villian or two, and keep the plot moving. Since everyone else is comparing it to B:TAS & TNBA, then I'll do it too.

Batman was in every ep. (albiet briefly in the TNBA girl power show) He's the only one. Robin was often not seen, Batgirl too. Alfred was fairly consistant, but going into TNBA, he started to become less frequent to give the others more screen time. A 30 minute show only has about 20 minutes of actual show. And despite the fact that all of the eps are 2-3 parts, it's still a 1/2 hour show. A problem in my opinion, but still, it's there.

[BeastBoyWonder]

yeah, TNBA was too short, along with JL. If you've watched JL sometimes you'll see that the ratio of "other stuff" (ads etc.) to actual showtime is higher than other shows on cartoon network.

[Naraht]

Originally posted by ragingdrummerboy
yeah, TNBA was too short, along with JL. If you've watched JL sometimes you'll see that the ratio of "other stuff" (ads etc.) to actual showtime is higher than other shows on cartoon network.

I doubt it
Shows are a finite length...

CN generally condences the internal breaks, and adds ads to the end. Most CN shows end 5 minutes before the hour, when standard shows tend to end 1:30 from the hour.

I work in TV, I notice these things.


Though some shows are shorter than others..

[Heehaw]

Yeah, I remember the first 60 or so episodes of BTAS were around 22 1/2 minutes in length. Then it was shortened to 21 1/2 so that more ads could be shown. I haven't checked, but I'd think JL is probably around 21 1/2.

I'm waiting to see how the Injustice Gang is handled. Looking forward to those shows.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Heehaw
Sure, it's been done before, but it was done in a fresh way. It was entertaining and didn't have any fatal flaws(for me).

Then in general we are not so far apart, except in judging the quality of the individual episodes. As far as the originality of the central plot, we agree that there is not much new in the JL episodes we have seen, nor was there much new about "The Demon's Quest." Where we disagree is whether these familiar plots are sufficiently well-handled. I would put TEB and SO at about on a par with TDQ (but then, I'm not a huge fan of TDQ; I like it but don't think it's as spectacular as you do), and would put IBN much lower. But again, this has to do with the success of each individual episode.



Which are...it almost sounds like you work on the inside.

:D No, it just comes from reflecting on the why they are telling these types of story, and trying to think of ways to get around the obvious problems of giving 7 superheroes something to do--and failing. Perhaps that shows I am of mediocre creativity. But it's enough to convince me that Timm and his crew have taken on a very difficult challenge.

[DR. BELCH]

Would it have been more effective if the baby blanket that Aquaman wrapped his stump in have been white or light-colored instead of red to start with? I mean, it's evident when he returns he's five fingers lighter, but the contrast would've really hit home more, for my money.

No sappy "if I save him maybe he can reform" mercy kiddie-show wuss bullpuckey. Aq lets his brother plummet to his death in the chasm.

That hook was rather long, wasn't it? Seems it'd be heavy and impractical to walk around with. Then again, maybe Aq demanded it that way, for penance's sake....

[Joe Tully]

I would've liked to see a little blood, but I don't think that CN would've liked it. I seriously doubt it's a coincidence that the blanket was red.

[Batman 80]

I was surprised that they showed Aquaman with a stump instead of a hand. How many cartoons would actually show a flesh and blood character with stump and no hand. I've seen it done with robots but never a flesh and blood character that resembles a human.

[Bic]

For me it wasn't as intense as the hype made it out to be. Maybe that's becuase I'm used to seeing much more violent animated shows like Loony Toons and the Kenshin OVAs (which is one of the most dramatic animated shows with violence ever, IMHO).

There was an emotional intensity yes. Aqua severing his hand to save his son, the death of his brother, again another instance in saving his family from possible injury and pain in the future. Perfectly plausible for a man of his position. But as intense as some of the other WBA stuff, I would have to disagree.

The first episode of the S:TAS I saw was the 'Late Mr. Kent'. At the very end when the bad cop figures out who Kent really is and you can hear the lethal gas being pumped in, my friend and I thought was a great scene. It had some intensity in it that we hadn't seen in an American animated show since B:TAS and to an extent Garygoyles. That's the level we felt upon seeing TEB.

As mentioned before 'Over the Edge' and 'RoTJ' was way more intense in a visually and psychologically and emotionally than TEB.

To have seen some blood or hint of it it would have given the scene a bit more bite. When the camera pulls away from Aquaman is a classic touch, but I would've liked to 'hear' the cutting or seen some clouds of blood float by the screen. And the red bandage around the hand was lame. It should've been a different color like someone else had mentioned.

Overall a good episode and series, but definately not as good as the hype would have us beleive.

But the music. *sigh*
I love movie scores. I have a very large collection of scores from around the world. The music was one of the reasons I loved B:TAS and S:TAS becuase of the rich feel of the sounds. My favorite episodes score, 'New Kids in Town'.
Music plays such a part of the emotional content of a scene or show that to skimp on it cheats the audience to enjoying the full impact of it. I understand money is a factor and that the budget on JL seems less than on B:TAS or S:TAS, but these are indivduals who possess the abilities to shatter worlds. The score needs to reflect that. Sadly it doesn't.

Still for all the flaws I mention, JL still rates up there as a must watch along with Enterprise and Alias (got bored with Smallville) this season. Now if I only had cable, then I could watch these on a big screen instead of my little laptop comp.

[Maxie Zeus]

OK, since we're starting to fantasize about how it should have been handled, here's my pitch:

As the rock slides lower into the chasm, Aquaman pulls one chain away from the rock. He desperately pulls at the other, to no avail.

He looks at his son, nailed to the rock, wailing. He looks down into the chasm (insert POV shot of the lava) then back up. Close on the knife handle holding the kid in place. Aquaman reaches down and pulls the knife from the rock. The infant slowly begins to drift down the rock face.

Close on the knife as Aquaman holds it next to his bound wrist. The camera follows the blade up in a sweeping arc as he raises the knife. Then the camera holds on the rock face as he swings the knife down.

In a long shot we see the chasm walls illuminated by the glowing lava. The infant (in silhouette) drifts down. Then (also in silhouette) Aquaman swims down into the screen, snatches the baby, and swims back up and out. He leaves a dark trail behind which, as it sinks, begins to glow red.

[Joe Tully]

The only gripe I'd have about that, Maxie, is I don't think that Aquaman would take the knife and risk having the kid fall into the lava as a result. His family is so important to him, I think he'd rather try to hack through his hand with the A than take the knife and try to cut through his hand before the kid fell out of his reach. I think that the idea of possibly being indirectly responsible for his kid's death would make him avoid that option.

Ideally, for me anyways, the kid's blanket would've been blue or white, and we would've seen blood stains on it. That's the only change I'd make.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Joe Tully
The only gripe I'd have about that, Maxie, is I don't think that Aquaman would take the knife and risk having the kid fall into the lava as a result.

Ah, but that's what makes it really dramatic. :D

Anyway, I didn't even know that medallion was sharp enough to do the job. It seemed kind of a "cheat." If the medallion isn't sharp enough--and there's nothing in the episode previously to indicate that it is--then Aquaman's only chance is to lunge for the knife.

[The Guard]

Sharp doesn't have much to do with it. You can hack your hand off with a spoon given proper motivation...

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by The Guard
Sharp doesn't have much to do with it. You can hack your hand off with a spoon given proper motivation...

Yeah, but it takes a long time! :eek:

[The Guard]

I dunno. Aquaman was pretty strong. It's just a matter of crushing the bones and tearing free...

[Joe Tully]

Yeah, but he's also very durable, so it'd be hard to do. Maxie's idea does appeal to me, in the way that it's certainly easier to do with the knife than the A, but I think that I still prefer the use of the A. I'm not going to make too much of an argument either way because I have no idea how easy/hard it is to actually cut through one's own arm since I've never seriously tried it, and doubt that I will anytime soon.

[Heehaw]

I really hated the river of lava underwater. Lava doesn't look like that when it is underwater. It looked like they were above the water. Oh well, another gripe...

[AngelStar]

I saw it, taped it, saw it again. It was an awsome ep! Minus no Flash! :mad: But was awsome! I saw it with my parents. My dad was like "!!!" when AQuaman's hand was cut off. But I mean it didn't go"Chop chop" it wasa fade out scene.

But what spoked my parents and made my dad mad was Aquaman letting his brother die and not caring.

I was like.."Wow" cause honestly I saw "The Lion King" SCar threw his brother off a cliff and he died yet kids saw that too. So what's the differance?
:eek:


Only thing I can see is that kids who like AQuaman will think he is a bad man now or that Aquaman is teaching kids to let their sibling who hurt them die. and that you shouldn't care if they die.


As much as I love JL and grown to like Aquaman. I admit I'd never think less of him for what he did to his brother. Besides I think these kinda eps are ment for the intelligent in mind.


and as for me I will never watch another "Intense" JL ep with my parents. My dad watchs for Superman. My mom for Wonderwoman....ya can THINK why I watch :D ..but your wrong I admored Batman,Flash,Superman,Wonder woman and green latern for a long time.:)

O look fwrd to the new eps!

[Martianman606]

Cooooll!