Did Joel want to make a bad batman movie?

[NewMaxFranklin]

This Tigerland movie of his is supposed to be a good, dark, gritty movie. So if he can make such a film, why was Batman and Robin so bad. Look at the Lost Boys. Not a great film, but scary enough.

My only explanation is that he just didn't have any faith in the character and plot. I suspect he's an elitist who feels he above the comicbook genre. He wanted to make a mockery of Batman, because to him it's supid.

I've said before that the best tghing about Forever was Kilmer. It's no secret that Kilmer and Shumacher sqabbled through the entire production and that Schumacher insisted that he not be in the next film. COuld that explain why Carrey's riddler was nothing like the BTAS version? And why Two Face was so rediculously over-the-top. I can hear Shumacher now. "Val, work with me here. I want you to play it silly, jazz it up. Like Tommy!"

I suspect he has no respect for the character and made a bad movie on purpose. Thoughts?

[The Guard]

In everything I've ever read with Schumacher...he talks about how much he loved the 1960's Batman TV show. But he obviously didn't read any recent comics, or even watch BTAS.

[Maxie Zeus]

From what I understand it was the studio that forced the campy vision thru.

"Batman Returns" was far darker than they wanted, and they thought it's smaller box-office return indicated that audiences were also turned off by the dark interpretation. (Never mind the huge gross of Batman. :rolleyes:)

So when Burton said he wanted to do other things they quickly let him go, and brought in Schumacher. He seemed like a plausible candidate, having made "The Lost Boys," but hasn't got nearly as independent a temperment as Burton. WB's chairman at the time, Bob Daly, was a huge fan of the TV show: apparently he even had an entire room in the executive building made over into a shrine to the character: The Bat Room, it was called. Word came down on BF that the studio wanted a lighter tone for the third; Schumacher delivered, and when BF did better than BR, the studio took itself as vindicated, and pressed for an even lighter tone for B&R.

[Failure]

The problem with Batman Returns was that it was so dark, the merchandise sales were hurt by it. Licensees were scared away by the darkness. So like Maxie said, Burton was replaced by Schumaker, and Batman Forever was a success in the box-offices and in the merchandising arena. So in B&R WB went one step further and actually got the toy companies and other licensees involved with the production process and as you can see, they ruined the image of a great superhero.

Actually, licensee involvement in the production process might have begun in Batman Forever, but it got even more involved in B&R.

[The Guard]

Batman Returns...I don't understand why people say it was so dark. Yes, The Penguin was grotesque, and he planned on killing a bunch of kids, but there was nothing about the event that created Batman, or him threatening any thugs, over anyone being scared of him. I thought it was an entertaining movie, but not dark...

[The Game]

Overall I think that everyone involved didn't purposly try to destroy Batman as NewMaxFranklin suggests... That idea seems ridiculous. In terms of Batman Returns being to dark... I don't know. I don't particularly see it that way, but my Mom (who knows nothing about Batman, of course) refuses to watch that one because of the "disgusting penguin man". I don't know, some of the contnent is just a little offensive and nasty... Like when he bites that guys nose... Just some thoughts.

[The Mad Hatter]

Schumaker once said on some talk show or another that he made B&R that way because he wanted to make "a kid's movie." Really. Now, whether it was his idea to make a kid's movie or the studio's is up for debate...

[NewMaxFranklin]

Originally posted by The Mad Hatter
Schumaker once said on some talk show or another that he made B&R that way because he wanted to make "a kid's movie."

Hence the nipples and the close-ups of the rubber butts. :rolleyes: Oh, and I didn't say "everyone involved tried to destroy Batman," just Schumacher (and no, I have no idea how to spell his name. :D) Sure execs are to blame. They always are, but, how could Schumacher not know that the film was just horrendous?

Exec notes:
-Burton didn't want to do a third Batman (in fact, he didn't want to do a second one.) So, the execs said they wanted to do a lighter movie and had decided to replace Burton.
-Keaton didn't think they were taking the character in a new direction and didn't find the role challenging anymore. So, the execs said he wanted too much money.

I don't think BR was too dark. I just thought it was lousy. But, I won't get into my whole "BF is the best live action Batman movie," thing again. I wouldn't call any of the live action Batman film good.

[Terminatah]

Next up: Darren Aronofsky and Frank Miller behind Batman: Year One (http://www.corona.bc.ca/films/details/batman5.html). Call me crazy, but I think it will be the best Batfilm yet.

I too remember Schumacher saying he wanted to make a movie kids could go to when he made Batman & Robin. When I first saw it, it seemed that he tried to recreate what he had with Batman Forever and just lost it when he put the damn thing on auto-pilot.

I think the first bad sign was when Batman & Robin clicked their heels together and ice skates popped out. Soon after, they were surfing down the sky (on actual skyboards they happened to have on them) going after a flying Mr. Freeze. Did the creators not realize how asinine this was? I suppose they probably didn't care just the same, but we might as well have been watching West & Ward. The villains in Batman Forever worked surprisingly well, with understandable lacks of development, considering they had to share the spotlight. But the villains in Batman & Robin? What a joke. Come to think of it, everything in that movie was a joke.

Alfred puts all the secrets of the Batcave on a CD ROM with a nearly nonexistent security program? Then his niece figures out the password and a virtual replica of Alfred ANTICIPATES this move, and rewards her with a Batsuit so she can join in the FUN OF CRIMEFIGHTING? Oh, ok.

Too bad no one stopped to consider that these kids they were trying to pander to are the same kids who composed the primary audience for Batman: The Animated Series, one of the most masterful Batman adaptations in the history of time. Oh well. Time to look forward to the future, which, in this case, will be Batman's past.

-Terminatah

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by Terminatah

Soon after, they were surfing down the sky (on actual skyboards they happened to have on them) going after a flying Mr. Freeze. Did the creators not realize how asinine this was?

Actually, I think they were surfing on the doors of the capsule Batman had been trapped in, and not on any skyboards that they had. But you're right about the situation and the movie being ridiculous. If I recall, while "surfing" down, Robin was shouting out "Cowabunga". That was painful.

[James]

Originally posted by The Guard
Batman Returns...I don't understand why people say it was so dark. Yes, The Penguin was grotesque, and he planned on killing a bunch of kids, but there was nothing about the event that created Batman, or him threatening any thugs, over anyone being scared of him. I thought it was an entertaining movie, but not dark...

Hmm, take the word 'dark' and replace it with 'faintly dull'.

I think BR was proof in itself that you DON'T need two villains per film! Actually BF was proof too - as was B&R...... Devito's penguin was needed in the film. I think a far more intelligent and interesting film could have been worked around Catwoman - it's just easier to dovetail two shorter stories than expand to having one gig one.

And of course, two baddies is good publicity.... :rolleyes:

[ZorBrak]

Gah stupid Warner, the reason Batman Returns did not pull in as much money was becuase they screwed with the joker by killing him off and they messed up the Penguin, People don't want strait comic pulled movies with the identical dialogue but we do want a film that stays true to the true batman form, I personally still thought the movie was great even with the weird Penguin, and I laughed so hard when Batman torched that stupid clown punk in a very unbatman almost venom like fashon but yeah the series needs a revision BIG TIME, I think that the old series is not really salvagable but if your a 007 fan you will agree with me when I say that it got worse before it got better and who knows what would have happened if the recent batman series continued, lets cross our fingers that Year One is the awesome film they are hyping it to be...

[The New Batman]

I don't think he purposely tried to ruin the movies, I just think he's incompetent.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy all,

I don't think anybody ever INTENDS to make a bad movie, but the big problem is that most incompetent people are so incompetent, they don't actually realize their own incompetence.

Tigerland is incredibly ponderous, self-important, and pretentious without actually being any good. As for Akiva Goldsman, he wrote both Schumacher Batman movies, the adaptation to Lost in Space, which didn't make a lick of sense, and Practical Magic, where we're supposed to believe that Nicole Kidman and Sandra Bullock have to resort to magic to get dates. Um, right. My toenail clippings could make better movies than these two.

At least Tim Burton had style. Schumacher is just a hack, and Goldsman couldn't write a decent movie adaptation of Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Their names are enough to deter me from seeing anything, no matter who's in it or how good its "supposed" to be.

-- Ed/Ace

[Naraht]

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
My toenail clippings could make better movies than these two.


After some discussion...my toenails said that they'd be happy to help.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound

As for Akiva Goldsman, he wrote both Schumacher Batman movies, the adaptation to Lost in Space, which didn't make a lick of sense


Huh? It made plenty of sense to me. Were you not have paying attention? Its an easy movie to follow, IMO.

I know i'm probably the only person in existence that can say this, but I actually loved the Lost In Space flick. It was an excellent update of the old series (one of my favorite series as a kid) with plenty of inside nods and jokes to the fans of the original series. I actually went into it with very low expectations, and came out very pleased with it.

[optimal321]

Something that really broke my heart is when this girl said that B&R was her favorite Batman movie. Because the other ones were too dark and boring :o