Bruce Timm Loses intrest too quickly.

[RONDC20]

I saw every episode of the original Batman Animaited Series and felt cheated when it ended after only 85 episodes. I felt so much more could of been done with that series and then when they decided to bring it back and revamp the show as The New Batman Adventures. It was great I loved it, but yet again it ended way too soon with only 25 episodes and then came the abombination to the Batman Franchise "Batman Beyond" This series totally killed the Batman world. I hate everything about this series Especially the Techno/Rave Musical Score it has. I much prefer the Ochestral sound of the original series with the Batman theme by Shierly Walker, anyway that's just my opinion, but I would like to know if anyone else agrees with me. I think that The Bruce Timm/Paul Dinni Team loose interest way too quickly in a series. They are like little children who loose intrest in a toy after only having it for 5 Minutes. So much more could of been done with the original Batman, So many untold stories. Anyway thats what I think.

Ronald C

[MattL.]

Alot of those things are out of Dini and Timms hands. Everything from ratings to the twist of the wind in the WB corperate offices can decide these things.

As for Batman Beyond, out of all the Batman in dark future stories ever written, this is the one that had the most heart going for it and worked on many levels.

The only problem I've ever had with the series is "The Call". Batman Beyond works very well as a future for Batman, but I have problems with that being how Superman ended up.

Also, Batman Beyond itself was born out of the WB wanting to do a hipper teen-Batman. Their original idea was to have a wisecracking teen-age Bruce Wayne who was just one of many Batmans for every generation (bringing to mind shuttering images of Lee Falks The Phantom 90210).

Bruce Timm and co. took that and found a way to spin having a younger Batman without mangaling Bruce Wayne, the original Batman myhtos, or the series that they had created before.

Batman Beyond wasn't born out of Dini and Timm getting bored. It was born out of them loving Batman so much and knowing that WB would've done their teen show with or without them.

and in their hands, the WB's totally lameass idea became a fantastic new show that at once reinvented and continued the mythos in a extremely dramatic, fun, and intresting way.

and the music fit the show. If they did techno on JL *then* you'd have something to be upset about, and I doubt we're gonna see Wonder Woman doing the Dana dance anytime soon (though that is a fun thought) :p

[The Game]

In terms of Batman: TAS ending too soon, I agree, but there's no one to blame for that other than the lack of fans who didn't watch the shows. Trust me, if the ratings were good the show wouldn't have stopped.

As for Batman Beyond, I agree. I hated Batman Beyond. For me, it wasn't the show, or the futuristic aspect, just the fact that seeing Batman old... He should never be seen like that. I for one never wanted to see some old hag Bruce Wayne. Same with all the characters for that matter.

[RONDC20]

Ok Point well taken Matt You might be right, but I still hate Batman Beyond, but thats just my opinion, anyway i just heard that there are gonna be some new batman animaited movies based on the old series BTAS and TNBA So Im happy about that. I also heard that WB Has decided not to do any BB Movies, thats even better news anyway Im Glad.In my opinion Batman did not need to be updated for a Younger Teenage audience. It was fine the way it was, they did not need to mess with it to make it cooler and More Hip. It was just stupid. and Im glad you agree with me thegame8866


Ronald C

[James Harvey]

The reason why the shows seem to end fast is becuase the network does not order anymore. Timm has said (plenty of times) that he wanted to continue Batman, Superman, and Batman Beyond. The networks just didn't support him. While I don't enjoy Batman Beyond on the same level as Batman or Superman, I still feel that WB shafted that series very harshly. Then again, WB didn't pick up another season of Batman when they said they would and ended Superman 11 episodes too early. I don't see being the crew's fault at all, but the execs at the top. Jean McCurdy fought hard for these shows, but couldn't beat those bloodless execs at the top. These upcoming DTVs are a small beacon of light. We'll get to see more Batman in the original TAS format (OH BOY!) and just some new Batman (no JL or Beyond) adventures. I'm really hoping one of these DTVs includes Green Arrow, a favorite of mine.

And welcome to the boards RONDC20! Glad to see another new face here! Welcome to WF!

[kid_flash]

Originally posted by thegame8866
As for Batman Beyond, I agree. I hated Batman Beyond. For me, it wasn't the show, or the futuristic aspect, just the fact that seeing Batman old... He should never be seen like that. I for one never wanted to see some old hag Bruce Wayne. Same with all the characters for that matter.

Odd statement to make. I hear from a lotta people that they hate seeing Bruce Wayne as an old man, and that Batman is ageless (well, Batman is ageless since Terry came in...). And those are the same people who absolutely love Batman because he's just a human. Well, newsflash, humans age.

I LOVE Batman Beyond, and a big reason is Bruce Wayne. I love seeing the guy all old and decrupit, and cranky from too many years of crime fighting. Then he's got this young, hip partner. The interaction there is awesome. It's hilarious in a serious sorta way.

[Karkull]

I hope that we have better luck on Cartoon Network. It seems that they'll support their new shows forever (they're still airing new Dexter's Lab episodes--and it's one of the oldest Cartoon Cartoons!).

[Samhaine]

Think about it: 109 episodes for an American cartoon is really good. Plus 2 movies. Plus, a spinoff series that lasted 52 eps, and had a movie of its own, and a spinoff of its own. And it's getting 3 more movies. So, BtAS had a good life.

Now we have JL, which, judging by its ratings, will have a long life as well. Karkull's right, if they will continue to support Dexter's Lab (probably one of their most popular cartoons, if not their most popular), then supporting JL is a no-brainer.

I'm just glad that Timm and the rest of the team is still working on DC heroes, because God knows what we would get if it was someone else trying (Superfriends, anyone?)

[Justice League 2000]

bruce and paul could have done 8 seasons of batman and superman because they should"n make batman beyond. they did six seasons of batman and four seasons of superman but batman beyond is good anyway it reminds me of spiderman. :rolleyes:

[Calico]

Originally posted by kid_flash


Odd statement to make. I hear from a lotta people that they hate seeing Bruce Wayne as an old man, and that Batman is ageless (well, Batman is ageless since Terry came in...). And those are the same people who absolutely love Batman because he's just a human. Well, newsflash, humans age.

I LOVE Batman Beyond, and a big reason is Bruce Wayne. I love seeing the guy all old and decrupit, and cranky from too many years of crime fighting. Then he's got this young, hip partner. The interaction there is awesome. It's hilarious in a serious sorta way.

Here, here! But it goes further than that for me. He's living with the consequences of his life. His 'mission' pushed anyone and everyone who cared for him away so not only is he completely alone, but age has robbed him of the one thing that defined him. That scene in 'Rebirth' where he says "No more" as he turns off the lights of the cave is terribly tragic.

Then along comes Terry and a second chance to be both a human being and Batman (at least vicariously).

Don't like seeing Bruce Wayne old? Imagine how he feels about it. That's what makes the show so fascinating to watch for me.



Calico

[Samhaine]

Originally posted by Pete
bruce and paul could have done 8 seasons of batman and superman because they should"n make batman beyond. they did six seasons of batman and four seasons of superman but batman beyond is good anyway it reminds me of spiderman. :rolleyes:
They really had no choice. Batman & Superman didn't get picked up for more eps. In fact, Superman was cancelled 11 episodes early. WB was going to make Batman Beyond no matter what. The WBA team did it so that it would actually be good, that's all.

[X-human]

There can be the feeling of being stuck in a rut. I really wouldn't blame Timm or Dini if they decided to do something a little different. These guys are "creative" and it's not very creative to be doing the same things over and over again.


Originally posted by Calico
Don't like seeing Bruce Wayne old? Imagine how he feels about it.

This is why I enjoy Batman so much is because he's just a guy. He doesn't have super powers. I would have enjoyed to see some more wear and tear on Batman during the animated series actually, gives it more reality.

[Beyond Batman]

I agree with kid_flash and Calico. Batman Beyond is a great show, and it shouldn't be so easily judged as a Batman for a new genearation, but as a show portraying Bruce Wayne in his old age. That's how I saw it, and that's what drew me in. What I found so facinationg about the show is how they portrayed how superheros do move on with their lives, grow old, and deal with the greatest enemy of all... time. Time is ineveitable, and everyone eventually grows old. ROTJ was a great example.

It seems a lot of people that have a problem with Batman Beyond are the more traditional fans. IMO, I never saw Terry as Batman. He's "a Batman," but not "the Batman." However, Terry was a really cool contrast of what the traditional cape and cowl was.

It's too bad that show was cut. That show had so much potential. That would be cool to have BB come back after a few years, showing a more mature Terry, in college or even a college graduate.

Overall, these changes help redefine Batman and helps stretch they're creativity.

[DisneyBoy]

You know, I've been know for disliking Batman Beyond, but now that I've heard so much in the past few months of what was out of Timm and Dini's hands, I just can't blame them as much for what has happened to the original animated series.

I, more than anyone, would love to see more B: TAS episodes and more S: TAS episodes, heck, and even a few more TNBA epsidoes (though that series wasn't as good as the original style), but in order to please the execs, the creative team had to continually reinvent their shows before they became old in order to keep our interest. Let's face it, (though I was only able to first watch B: TAS years after it ended), B: TAS had lost it's marketing value by the time those last episodes aired. Hasbro had made most of the figures and vehicles they could, and the show had been on air for so long that it became a regular show for people to watch. In order for anything to hold our short attention spans for more than a few years, it needs to surprise us and give us something new. It can never become regular or expected. People switch jobs, spouses, homes and channels more than ever before. Dini and Timm did what they had to not simply to keep their jobs, but to keep everyone interested in Batman. All opinions aside, no one can deny that they succeeded.

[RONDC20]

Ok so Bruce Timm and Paul Dini are not to blame ok I get that, But you people here speak of the fact that the reason the Network Execs scraped the shows so fast was beacause the public looses intrest to fast. As soon as ratings go down just a little they get scared and decide to just scrap the show instead of just standing by it and supporting it. If it's a good solid show it will last and come back on top, but they did not give it a chance. They want to reinvent the show every 5 seconds to keep the people intersted it's stupid. And why is it that other shows dont do this. One prime example is The Simpsons, Now im sure that that series has had it's fair share of bad ratings streaks, but Fox stood by it and now it's one of the longest running Animaited Series ever without any revamping or reinventing or change of character designs or anything like that, sure some things have changed and characters have come and gone, but overall it's still the same show that everyone knows and loves.

A show can be good and solid and still be original and new with every episode and every season. GOD!! are People so quick to loose intrest in a show that the WB has to jump and rehash, frankly it annoys the Hell out of me. If only they would have gone to Cartoon network now theres a network that stands by it's shows.

Oh and I still don't like Batman Beyond, but I think that the main reason may seem stupid to most of you. It's the Techno/Rave Musical Score of the series that I hate. Im one of those people that really dislikes 99.9% of all modern contemperary music today
call me crazy, but I hate it all save for a song here and there. And I really REALLY!!! HATE Techno/Rave. Im a big fan of Thematic Orchestral Musical Scores for Movies and TV Shows. I like composers like John Williams who compose the music for the Star Wars Movies and Shirely Walker who was the primary music composer for the Batman Animaited series. The series has a lot of musical Thematic material. It has specific musical themes ranging from Batman, Batgirl and Nightwing and also has specific themes for the entire Rouges Gallery all of Villians have their own themes. Thats the kind of music I like, but im guessing nobody cares, anyway thats all I have to say

Ronald C

[Naraht]

BB kicked ass.

I loved the score (I have the sound track somewhere) and it helped set the show apart. BB would have looked just silly with orchestral music, just as B:TAS would have been dumb with techno music. You didn't like it, I'm sorry, but it was well writen, stayed true to the characters, and maintained a good mix of Dark vs Humorous.

Keep in mind, Kid TV is a cutthroat business. Kids have short attention spans, and if it doesn't look lke a show is doing as well as it could, it's gone. And if a show is doing well, they play the heck out of it, make no drastic changes, and hope for the best.

I say make no drastic changes, so I'll give an example. Pokemon is one of KidsWB's big players. Despite the change in title, theme, and layout....it's the same show, week after week. Ash & Co. meet a new pokemon, it's trainer...fight w/Team Rocket, and everyone walks away happy. Power Rangers is the same way. Both shows in my opinion have gotten old, and ought to be pulled, but they continue to perform, so stay they will. :yakko:

[DisneyBoy]

We do care about you're opinion ;)

I totally agree with you comments about the execs and share your frustration. I could have enjoyed another three or four seasons of the original B: TAS. I didn't need or want a revamped anything. In my opinion, the animation was much better before it all became too stream-lined and cartoony. I too don't understand how the Simpsons has managed to go untouched for how many years (?) and yet Batman has had to go through more changes than Micheal Jackson! I thought everyone in TV land reveered the show. Why the execs kept expecting changes is beyond me. Though we should keep in mind that none of us know their side of the story. Hopefully one day, some exec will level with us, so we'll be able to finally understand the situation rather than griping about it.

[Naraht]

Originally posted by DisneyBoy
We do care about you're opinion ;)

I totally agree with you comments about the execs and share your frustration. I could have enjoyed another three or four seasons of the original B: TAS. I didn't need or want a revamped anything. In my opinion, the animation was much better before it all became too stream-lined and cartoony. I too don't understand how the Simpsons has managed to go untouched for how many years (?) and yet Batman has had to go through more changes than Micheal Jackson! I thought everyone in TV land reveered the show. Why the execs kept expecting changes is beyond me. Though we should keep in mind that none of us know their side of the story. Hopefully one day, some exec will level with us, so we'll be able to finally understand the situation rather than griping about it.

The Simpsons is an Adult program which is animated...one of the few in America. Batman was intended for kids...and was probably hurt by it's mature aproach..

[Clayface]

Originally posted by naraht


The Simpsons is an Adult program which is animated...one of the few in America. Batman was intended for kids...and was probably hurt by it's mature aproach..

Actually, B:TAS wasn't intended for kids - it was intended to be for both adults and kids - they wanted from the start to have a more mature approach to it. It was the execs that decided it needed to be more "kid-ified" and insisted on the introduction of Robin and a lightening of the show.

[RONDC20]

Thank you DisneyBoy Im happy that you agree with me in everyway. What annoys me is the Network Execs need to constantly play towards a younger audience. Oh the show needs to be more Kid freindly we have to tone it down or oh we need a Teenage demographic so we have to make Batman Younger and Hipper and cooler and totaly screw everything up. In my opinion most teenagers already liked The Batman Animaited Series without having to turn it into some Teen angst futuristic techno-noir mess of a Show. What they were trying to do with Batman Beyond is bring in a different type of Teenage audience. The kind of Teenagers. The kind who goes clubing a lot and normally would not give a crap about Batman but they bring them in with a God awfull headache inducing Techno music. The Music just annoys the Hell out of me. It would not be so bad if there was at
least some structure to the Techno Music like Thematic musocal elements like the older series had. There are a few ocations where you hear the Batman theme in the series, but thats only when old Bruce Wayne Dons the Bat Suit Again or something along those lines. For the most part the Music is just lots of loud noise.

Well I say leave Batman alone. It's lasted this long without any major changes in any of the comic books. It was fine the way it was and It did not need to be revamped and reinvented they need to forget about trying to get new fans and focus on the ones they already have. And no matter what Batman Beyond will never sit well with me

Ronald C

[Maxie Zeus]

I'm sure you would have to ask Timm or Dini or Burnett directly for a full explanation of what went on with BTAS as TNBA and BB, and why they were treated as they were. This is the explanation as I know it, gleaned from various sources.

Why was BB launched, instead of a new round of TNBA episodes?

It's been said earlier in the thread. The network wanted a show geared to a younger demographic. The creative crew came up with BB as the best show that would give the network what it wanted, save the characters' continuities, and give the crew a chance to flex their creative muscles.

Why were the characters redesigned in TNBA?

When Warners launched Kids' WB they decided to bring all their shows over to the new network from Fox. That included BTAS. Because they didn't simply want to launch a series of Fox-broadcast reruns, they ordered new episodes to "freshen the package." Timm's style had changed in the meantime, becoming much more stylized and less detailed. He did not want to simply rerun the designs from BTAS, and so used the relaunch as an opportunity to redesign the characters. See the discussion here (http://purpleplanetmedia.com/eye/inte/btimm-2.shtml), and on page 4, where Timm says: "I find the old episodes really hard to watch. I find them really slow, and I find the animation really clunky and the designs are kinda fat and chubby."

[b]Why were so few episodes of BTAS, STAS, TNBA and BB ordered? Why doesn't it keep running, like "The Simpsons" on Fox?

This is going to be long and tedious, because it's a matter of economics, the economics of network programming vs. the economics of syndication.

When a program is created for network broadcast, it has a two-stage revenue stream: money from the network that purchases the original broadcast rights, and later money from syndication when the show is sold directly to individual TV stations or to cable networks.

Now, the network makes money off of advertisements; since the rates it charges for ads are a function of ratings, and ratings are always higher for new material than old, the network will always be interested in new episodes (so long as the show as a whole is doing well), and will purchase them from the producing studio.

In syndication there is no premium for new episodes. Instead, TV stations simply look for a popular show with enough episodes in the library so that the repetition of material will not be too bad. Therefore, there is less incremental value in each new episode, and stations will not pay a premium for a series with a large library.

Now, series that are produced for networks (like "The Simpsons") can generate large libraries from their network runs, and do quite well in syndication with those libraries. But shows that are produced for syndication only have only the one revenue stream, and one with a definite cap on potential earnings.

Thus, the producer of a syndicated series has an interest in capping his investment by producing only a limited number of episodes. If, say, he produces a series with 65 episodes, he will have a library large enough to syndicate. If he produces more than that number he will burden himself with extra costs with no guarantee of generating extra revenues based simply on the presence of those extra episodes.

That, for instance, is is why cartoon series produced in the 80s (even the hit ones) have such a small number of episodes: it would have cut the profits on the show to produce any more.

So what the heck does this have to do with BTAS and the rest? Weren't they network shows?

Well, yes and no. In its Fox days, BTAS could probably be recognized as a "network" show: it was purchased by Fox from an outside supplier, and Fox made money off of advertisements. (Actually, WB probably did to; if the compensation package was the standard one, WB was paid--in part--with commercial time it could sell itself.) WB insisted on making at least 65 episodes, so that it would have something to syndicate if Fox pulled the plug early. But Fox had an interest in seeing new episodes made, and had them made: an additional 20 (under the title "The Adventures of Batman & Robin").

Things changed somewhat when the show moved to KWB. The network itself was a unit of Warner Bros. (just like the animation division), and when it came time to decide whether new episodes were needed the studio looked to its own bottomline. And on balance, I suspect, they discovered that profits could be maximized by producing only a limited additional number of episodes for the network; after that, each additional new episode would lose more in production cost that it would gain in network viewership. In other words, when the network and production studio were all under the same roof, the syndication model came into effect: The network's gain from a new episode was more than offset by the loss to the studio in creating the new episode.

I don't know that for a fact, but it is a reasonable surmise.

Certainly, it would explain why KWB treats non-WBA shows like MiB and Pokemon with greater deference: as a network, KWB is more interested in new shows for itself than in the economics of the total package, and so will keep a show like MiB and Pokemon in production. By contrast, with BB it has to fully finance the program and its overhead in order to get the new episodes.

BTW, sometimes relations between networks and studios get very vexed for just the reasons outlined. Networks pay studios less money than it takes to produce an episode; the studio recoups the loss in syndication. But as the library fills up, the studio's chance of recouping the cost from each new episode diminishes, and the studio will insist on the network picking up a greater share of the production cost. Eventually, even if the show is doing well and the creative staff is willing to continue, a show can simply become uneconomical to produce, for both the studio and the network. In such a circumstance, even a fertile hit series may get cancelled.

What does this mean for JL?

I dunno. Cartoon Network is not part of Warner Bros., though it is another division of AOL-Time Warner. It may be that the same accounting reasoning will limit the number JL episodes produced.

On the other hand, programs produced for CN do not go into syndication, which means that the show will return money to AOL only from a network run--a run that will require some new episodes always be in the pipeline. I do notice that even aging shows like "Dexter's Laboratory" get new episodes. It may be the same for JL.

[James]

Originally posted by RONDC20
Thank you DisneyBoy Im happy that you agree with me in everyway. What annoys me is the Network Execs need to constantly play towards a younger audience.

The kind who goes clubing a lot and normally would not give a crap about Batman but they bring them in with a God awfull headache inducing Techno music. The Music just annoys the Hell out of me. It would not be so bad if there was at least some structure to the Techno Music like Thematic musocal elements like the older series had.

Well I say leave Batman alone. It's lasted this long without any major changes in any of the comic books. It was fine the way it was and It did not need to be revamped and reinvented they need to forget about trying to get new fans and focus on the ones they already have. And no matter what Batman Beyond will never sit well with me


Hiya Ronald, mate. Nice to someone new who has a fresh opinion to add to the board.
Don't agree through ;)

Firstly, I think the comparison with The Simpsons is a difficult one. The Simpsons is pretty much the first of it's kind, managing to create a adult/kids comedy cartoon show (which both enjoy) and bring it right to the forefront. Most importantly it's a comedy, which for a cartoon which invokes the interest of kids, is a far safer programme than Batman - in any of it's true forms - can ever be.

Simply, Batman is a dangerous programme to advocate. It's dark, violent, deals with the insane and even slyly suggests that the hero, whilst in some respects a criminal in himself, is slightly looney too. While Batman does appeal to a spectrum of ages, like it or not, in cartoon format, the age it remains the most popular (and thus the most profitable) is kids. Any other format ends up being to much of a budget burden and thus a conceivably hard project to pitch to nervous networks.

Also, as yourself to some extent proves, even it's fanbase can be very picky over the end result and may boycott the show if it's not up to spec. Personally, I consider it fortunate that Dini was given the chance to make Batman Beyond. I see so many great concepts buried in TV so quicky, any attempt to rework or write one of my favourite stories I relish. To get so many episodes and stories of one concept should be cherished.

Especially one as dangerous as Batman. While Batman is a dark adult concept, ironically it's the kids who support it, who buy the shirts and the toys and remain glued to the screens. In fact, many kids will watch anything as long as it has a cool 'gun' or space ship (I for one was guilty of this with my love of such terrible cartoons as Godzilla, Space Sentinels and Challengo Of The Gobots). For a such a dark concept (which had already been proved popular when masterworked into the light entertainment vein in the 60's) we are again fortunate that Timm and Dini have been there to keep the essential elements in the show - if when directed to make a 'Teen Batman'.

I'd never imagined such a long running US kids cartoon (which essentially, thats what Batman is aimed at) to have lasted so long and keeping so close to it's source still amazes me.

And as for the Batman soundtrack. Like with all music, if it's well composed - no matter what genre - if it's good, it's good. If's stinks, it stinks. Batman Beyond is a futuristic show and I think music suits it. It still has string elements to the score and the fusion in Return Of The Joker is inspiring. Great stuff. I don't think the techno is for the kids. I think it's cool and I'm 26 mate! Besides, we must always continue to push the boundaries and try different concepts. Sure, BB wasn't perfect but it pushed the genre once more and kept it from going stale so we would have conversations like this (and look at Spider-Man Unlimited's attempt to push the genre. No vison. 2nd class BB. Pathetic).

Finally, may I say that the success of BB will have been the catalyst for Justice League. No Batman or Superman films/TV shows to encourage the execs down that road. Batman Beyond was the show which showed that kids and adults STILL have interest in that market. There were bound to be other factors but essentially, BB is another link in the anime chain.

Hopefully JL will help spawn another one as BB did!

Kudos,
(Watching MOTP again as I write which is inspiration in itself for this pro Timm/Dini rant! :) )