GiTS: SAC Real Life Scenerio: Would you Body Swap?

[Funkatron]

Inspired by Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex

If you could swap your body and use a prostetic one, would you?
Would you choose one that looks like you or try something different?
Would you switch your body Gender?
Younger Body? Older Body?
Would your new body have interesting features ie. Stronger/faster/hacking abilities/Better hung/Bigger Rack http://bottalk.com/board/images/smilies/tongue.gif?
Would you want more than one body that you could alternate between?

[Ben]

An Asian body would be a really neat experiment for my next trip. I'd probably go for that. Sometimes it would kinda be nice not to feel eyes all over me.

The problem I can see with getting a woman body if you're a guy or vice versa is that people would probably be able to tell right away if you aren't careful just from your habitual physical mannerisms. It would be just like trying to impersonate someone of the opposite sex online only about a thousand times harder.

[Funkatron]

An Asian body would be a really neat experiment for my next trip. I'd probably go for that. Sometimes it would kinda be nice not to feel eyes all over me.

The problem I can see with getting a woman body if you're a guy or vice versa is that people would probably be able to tell right away if you aren't careful just from your habitual physical mannerisms. It would be just like trying to impersonate someone of the opposite sex online only about a thousand times harder.
I'd try a womans body once just to..err..."experiment".
Otherwise, a leaner, more Samuel L Jackson-looking version of myself

[Ferquin]

I think the obvious answer would be a sexy lesbian woman, perhaps like Major Kusanagi. 'Cause I sure as hell ain't gonna be chasing guys in a female shell.

Second choice would probably be the opposite of me - skinny and handsome and with 20/20 vision.

[Don_East]

[Captain Murphy]I'm gonna be an Adrienne Barbeau-bot.[/Captain Murphy]

[charmuse]

If the Major doesn't want her shell...I'll take it.:D

[Bandit]

Would you... put your brain in a robot body?

[Vallen Valiant]

Would you... put your brain in a robot body?
For saving my own life, or other reasons?

I am not sure if I will ever be willing to 'go Cyborg' just for the hell of it. Togasa and almost everyone else (except for homeless people) has communication and memory implants in the same way people have e-mail adresses and home internet connection today; You can't do anything without them. I personally was shocked to discover my University course require me to obtain an e-mail address, or I won't get my lecture hand-outs. It must be the same way in the GITSAC universe. You don't need to go cyborg to any serious degree, but without a built-in communication device in your head, and the encryption-protection it offers, it would be difficult to have secure communication with your colleagues.

Look at it this way... You don't need a cell phone, but it seemed normal to have one because everyone else has it.

Going full-cyborg, however... In both GITSAC and (especially) 2nd Gig, the issue with cyborgnisation is addressed. Things like why cyborgs still desire food, habits that are technically meaningless yet defines their humanity (like Batou's habit of 'working out' when his muscles don't grow).

To go cyborg is not suppose to be an easy decision. You will learn about the difficulties soon enough in 2nd Gig. It's enough for me to say I won't go cyborg unless there is a very good reason...

[Juu-kuchi]

If I'm allowed to swap into a Tachikoma, you'd better believe it.

[Hakuhatsu]

Would I put my "ghost" into a "shell?" Depends...

I have very fair skin and not so great eyesight, so having a cybernetic body would be great. I wouldn't mind being having a Schwartzenegger special, or even an Armstrong (the big guy in FMA) - type body to be uber masculine. Nor would I oppose a shell like the Major's, just to see things from a woman's point of view. And call me wierd, but I'd take a Jameson-type body for a "test drive" too, just to be different. (Hey, Sampo, if you have a copy of "Missing Hearts" or the Tachikomatic Days after "AG2O" put up an image of a Jameson-type for me, please!)

Of course, it would be cool to be able to do some of the things that cyborgs can do, like do summersaults off buildings and carry a fully assembled big block Chevy engine or full keg of beer with little effort, things like that. Also, internal communications (like the way members of Section 9 talk to each other), infra-red and night vision, direct nural link to the internet... the list of options is near endless.

However, have you considred the downsides of having a cyborg body?

Vallen Valiant, pointed out that there are certain habits that define humanity, and I would also point out that your soft, fleshy, shell, to some extent, is one of the factors that define you as you. Would I be the same person in a cyborg shell, even if the shell was identical to what I look like now? Would my personality change if I was stronger or near imortal? Would it change if I bulked up or switched sexes?

Also, could you afford to have a cybernetic body? I discussed this issue in the discussion of "Re-View" in terms of why Togusa hasn't gone full cyborg. I likened it to buying a high-performance exotic sports car (Ferrari or Lamborghini) today. I don't think Togusa is necessarily anti-cybornetics, just that he would rather spend the money on his family (a roof over their head and food in their stomachs).

The first movie touches on the problems with having cyborg bodies in three scenes...

1.) After the doctor's briefing about the apparent ghostline found in the shell of a runaway cyborg, Batou tells Togusa about the Megatech corporation and how he and the Major's bodies were also manufactured at that plant.

Batou: And since you're relatively new to our "club," you wouldn't know this, but Major Kusanagi's body was also made by Megatech. And not only the Major's, parts of me and Ishikawa and Saito, we've all got to have regular cybernetic maintainance. You and the Cheif are the only ones out of the whole section whose bodies don't come with a warrenty.

Also,

2.) Togusa believes there's foul play involved after Section 6 (Ministry of Public Affairs) chief Nakamura and Dr. Willis arrive (discrepencies with the garage pressure sensors under the vehicles and utlra sensitive doors took too long to close after they entered the building) to claim the remains of the shell the Puppetmaster inhabits. He inquires with the Major...

Togusa: Does that Nakamura guy have a special order cyborg body?
Motoko: No, there aren't any cyborgs in Section 6. They don't even ship them to serve overseas because they're too hard to maintain. There's diplomatic considerations as well.

3.) The scene from the original flick where Batou and Motoko are talking after her SCUBA dive. She asks him how much of his body is still "original" and then talks about all the nuances that come with possessing a cyborg body, like...

Motoko: Look at us, for example, we're state of the art. Controled motabolisms, computer enhanced brains, cybernetic bodies, not long ago, this was science fiction. So what if we can't survive without regular high-level maintanance, who are we to complain? I suppose an occasiona tune-up is a small price to pay for all this.
Batou: I'm affraid we've both signed our bodies and ghosts away to Section 9.
Motoko: True, if we ever quit or retire, we'd have to give back our augmented brains and cyborg bodies. There wouldn't be much after that.


That last scene also goes back to my discussion on Togusa's pro/anti-cybornetic views, that the members of Section 9 who have cybernetic bodies are the ones who were former military members (like Batou). Military and government agencies like police forces, would have the resources available to purchase and maintain the cybernetic bodies of their members.

Still, as has been brought up in SAC, many cybernetic (they also use the term prosthetic) bodies are used in cases where serious injury or illness warrent it, and can you put a price on human life (I'm sure there are some corporations that do, but I meant that in a retorichal question...)?

So, would it be worth it? Maybe. Would I want to do it? Perhapse, it would depend on circumstances.

[Artimus Gigan]

Oh yeah definetly, I'd have a whole collection of cybernetic bodies....

all would be equipped with hidden weaponry and gadgets so I could lurk in the shadows and hide my identity,oooh and one would be one of those Full Auto Exo Mail Suit things loaded with state of the art seige and melle weaponry.....

and I would bring justice to the guilty and the earth would burn of fire for seven days...

[Sampo]

Would I put my "ghost" into a "shell?" Depends...

I have very fair skin and not so great eyesight, so having a cybernetic body would be great. I wouldn't mind being having a Schwartzenegger special, or even an Armstrong (the big guy in FMA) - type body to be uber masculine. Nor would I oppose a shell like the Major's, just to see things from a woman's point of view. And call me wierd, but I'd take a Jameson-type body for a "test drive" too, just to be different. (Hey, Sampo, if you have a copy of "Missing Hearts" or the Tachikomatic Days after "AG2O" put up an image of a Jameson-type for me, please!)
...
Ok here you go. Hey would you also go with a Texan Accent as well?


http://home.hawaii.rr.com/wizardgrey/images/Temp/jameson.jpg




If I'm allowed to swap into a Tachikoma, you'd better believe it. I would also do the above... Although it would be friggin awesome to swap into this monster. :D


http://home.hawaii.rr.com/wizardgrey/images/Temp/tank.jpg

[Beat]

But what about the limits of technology? There's a lot they don't know about, even in the GITS world. Your brain being turned into hackable data, your mind being wiped like a hard drive...

You can all have fun on the robot reservations, I wouldn't risk it unless my life depended on it.

[Artimus Gigan]

Yeah also robots like Tachicomas can't do...well, they can't "go down stairs"
I mean you could probably get somthing out of an astromech droid...or somthing like a Dalek, but it would probably be the equivelent of touching an eletric fence with both hands while being covered in water...


I mean that's why the Jamerson type said his wife wasn't happy about the robot body operation

Unless ofcoruse you could keep yuor original body on ice or somthing

[Vallen Valiant]

But what about the limits of technology? There's a lot they don't know about, even in the GITS world. Your brain being turned into hackable data, your mind being wiped like a hard drive...

You can all have fun on the robot reservations, I wouldn't risk it unless my life depended on it.
In 2ndGig, there is also the mention of rehab difficulties after the operation... You would have to learn to walk all over again... Remember, Motoko is one of the BEST Cyborg body users in the world. Why?, and how do I know that? You would have to wait for 2nd GiG:D

Maybe there are warnings in small writing under the advertisements for cyborgnisation:
'Results not typical, long rehab required.'

[Karl Olson]

But what about the limits of technology? There's a lot they don't know about, even in the GITS world. Your brain being turned into hackable data, your mind being wiped like a hard drive...

You can all have fun on the robot reservations, I wouldn't risk it unless my life depended on it.

I knew you weren't gonna honor those bogus treaties. :D

I dunno, might be fun to have some spare bodies of various shapes and sizes. It'd darn fun to bust various bad guys in bodies that are seemingly cute and innocent, but actually have crazy weaponry and strength hidden in them...

Internet Perv: Come here! I've got popsicles in my basement...
Cyborg Agent That Only Looks a Kid: ok...
(ten minutes later)
Squad of Police: You're under arrest.
Internet Perv: And would have gotten away if it weren't for you metallized kids!

And that was way too much setup for one joke. :sweat:

[Lord Dalek]

This has actually been done in an episode of Red Dwarf so I already know the practical drawbacks of such a process.

Being, of course, Rimmer screwing it up.

[Hakuhatsu]

Sampo asked,

"Ok here you go. Hey would you also go with a Texan Accent as well?"

Texan would be cool, but I think I could also have fun by thickining my already noticable Minnesotan Norwegian-German accent...

Oh yeah, you bectha. Den we could go have fun down dere in Fargo den.

(Note: yes, I am a native Minnesotan, yes I'm aware that Fargo is in North Dakota (but Moorhead, MN is right across the Red River) and my accent isn't really that thick (although most non-Minnestoa, Iowa or Wisconsin natives say I have one).)

But I digress...


Sampo,

Thanks for the image, much appreciated, and your choice of the tank from "Testation" is deffinate coolness.


Artimus Gigan,

"Yeah also robots like Tachicomas can't do...well, they can't "go down stairs"
I mean you could probably get somthing out of an astromech droid...or somthing like a Dalek, but it would probably be the equivelent of touching an eletric fence with both hands while being covered in water...


I mean that's why the Jamerson type said his wife wasn't happy about the robot body operation"

That's what "attachments" and/or "accessories" are for.


Beatdigga quandried,

"But what about the limits of technology? There's a lot they don't know about, even in the GITS world. Your brain being turned into hackable data, your mind being wiped like a hard drive...

You can all have fun on the robot reservations, I wouldn't risk it unless my life depended on it."

Illegal ghost hacking, simulated experiences, psimex (simex?) erasures... not to mention popups in your visual sensors and spamed thoughts/impulses entering your mind at inopertune times. That's why they have firewalls to prevent those things (although, anyone who wanted to could probably hack it). But I would think the military/agency would provide barriers/anti-spyware-ish software for you... if you didn't have the computer hacking skills the Major possesses.

Robot reservations? Even if it was mainstream? What would you do, exile all cyborgs, cyberneticly enhanced beings to the island of Manhattan a la "Escape From New York?"

[Ben]

You guys are overthinking this. When ion asked, "Would you buy extra bodies?" I assumed the "if you were incredibly stinking rich" was implied. :D

[Paul_Cousins]

An Asian body would be a really neat experiment for my next trip. I'd probably go for that. Sometimes it would kinda be nice not to feel eyes all over me.

The problem I can see with getting a woman body if you're a guy or vice versa is that people would probably be able to tell right away if you aren't careful just from your habitual physical mannerisms. It would be just like trying to impersonate someone of the opposite sex online only about a thousand times harder.This would lead to a lot of 'transgender' problems for those switching physical genders.

I risk being banned from Toon Zone if I get any more detailed than that... :sweat:

[Hakuhatsu]

"You guys are overthinking this. When ion asked, "Would you buy extra bodies?" I assumed the "if you were incredibly stinking rich" was implied. :D"


I wouldn't say we're overthinking it, there are a lot of inherent moral, philosophical and legal issues besides the financial that are involved with this, so why not address them as well while we discuss the topic at hand?

It's not just a question of whether or not you can afford the investment, but whether it's really worth it in the first place.

[Ben]

I wouldn't say we're overthinking it, there are a lot of inherent moral, philosophical and legal issues besides the financial that are involved with this, so why not address them as well while we discuss the topic at hand?

It's not just a question of whether or not you can afford the investment, but whether it's really worth it in the first place.

I suppose that since Western medicine has already saved my life at least twice and I'm already technically a cyborg (http://tfarm.sdf1.org/b/eyes.jpg) I don't find the prospect of being dependent on "habitual maintenance" as earth-shattering as I might.

[Karl Olson]

I suppose that since Western medicine has already saved my life at least twice and I'm already technically a cyborg (http://tfarm.sdf1.org/b/eyes.jpg) I don't find the prospect of being dependent on "habitual maintenance" as earth-shattering as I might.

Wow, I forgot that I'm a cyborg too. I suppose my current cybernetic enhancement already needs habitual maintenance (in fact, I'm probably overdue for an upgrade,) so a little more wouldn't matter too much.

[j32885]

I would go with cybernetic enhancement or a new cybernetic body, if my original organic body was damage from serious medical condidtions or in case of dieing right away.

[Paul_Cousins]

On a side note, I don't think cybernetics in the pure mostly inorganic cyborgs is going to be the future for humanity. Current technology, with research in tissue engineering and adult stem cell threapy, will probably lead to more of organic replacement organs, replacement parts and entirely new organic bodies for humans in the near future (within a decade if not sooner), sort of like the replicants from Blade Runner WITHOUT the four year lifespan (I hope).

For example, I read last week a surgeon figured out how to take a person's own adult stems cells and through surgical a technique create and entire new breast (tissue) grow in the person themselves. This technique is meant as a replacement breast(s) for a woman who loses one or both of her breasts to either illness or accident. Though I sure that plastic surgeons are taking a good hard look at this for their businesses. :sweat:

[Funkatron]

On a side note, I don't think cybernetics in the pure mostly inorganic cyborgs is going to be the future for humanity. Current technology, with research in tissue engineering and adult stem cell threapy, will probably lead to more of organic replacement organs, replacement parts and entirely new organic bodies for humans in the near future (within a decade if not sooner), sort of like the replicants from Blade Runner WITHOUT the four year lifespan (I hope).

For example, I read last week a surgeon figured out how to take a person's own adult stems cells and through surgical a technique create and entire new breast (tissue) grow in the person themselves. This technique is meant as a replacement breast(s) for a woman who loses one or both of her breasts to either illness or accident. Though I sure that plastic surgeons are taking a good hard look at this for their businesses. :sweat:
No more leaky silicone!!

[Ben]

On a side note, I don't think cybernetics in the pure mostly inorganic cyborgs is going to be the future for humanity. Current technology, with research in tissue engineering and adult stem cell threapy, will probably lead to more of organic replacement organs, replacement parts and entirely new organic bodies for humans in the near future (within a decade if not sooner), sort of like the replicants from Blade Runner WITHOUT the four year lifespan (I hope).

I think "within a decade" is wildly overoptimistic. Even if you pretend the moral issues with this kind of technology don't exist it's going to be a long, long time before we start seeing stem cell "solutions" that are commonly available. And there are a lot of people out there (read: me) who would rather stop this research from ever taking place because the costs to human and animal life are too great.

[Anime411]

For me, it would depend on the situation. But I highly doubt I'd go cyborg really.

You see, I find it kind of scary. You become basically immortal, and at that point you can no longer tell the truth of another person entirely. We do have enough trouble now as it is, with people pretending to be who they are not, but that would be a whole other problem.

By immortal, I mean all you have to do is get maintenance checks ever so often, and if you need an arm you can get one. It's like delaying the process of death to no end, unless your ghost is deleted, which seems to be highly unlikely in the show.

Plus, I would like to be the rare form around (because I like attention) and assuming most people would go full cyborg if they could, because most seem to be like that, I'd like to stay human.

But really, I think I'd be more of someone like Togusa. He has the implants and can communicate with everyone, but he seems to want to keep his humanity. I think I'd be fine with that, surfing the net in your mind would be quite fun. I know you can probably be super strong or do more things efficiently, but it would depend on whether or not it was necessary for me.

For example, we can look at Togusa. Now let's say he wouldn't have made it out alive after being shot unless he got a prosthetic body. What do you think he would do? His job is really important as well as his family, would he give up his ideals to become cyborg to keep on with his life? It all depends on the given circumstances. If that was the case for me, I think I would accept the prosthetics because I would still need to help plenty of people in life, all though I am quite religious and I like to say God would take care of it.

So all in all, I'd rather be Togusa and nothing more. He seems quite happy, except for the fact he feels inferior. But then again, he was pulled into that job, dealing with nearly all cyborgs, and I don't think I'll ever be a part of the government or the police XD

[Paul_Cousins]

I think "within a decade" is wildly overoptimistic.Nope. A year ago, a group of college "tissue engineering" researchers in New England were working on producing skin and basic tissues, like muscle tissue, using machines based off of inkjet printer technology.

A month of so ago I read that they figures out how to produce skin and muscle tissue and that they should be able to figure out how to produce bones and whole complex organs (like hearts and livers) within a year or two. :cool:

It sounds wild, but it's interesting.



Even if you pretend the moral issues with this kind of technology don't exist it's going to be a long, long time before we start seeing stem cell "solutions" that are commonly available.We have been doing types of stem cell therapies for decade. One of the more common types is a bone marrow transplant for cancer patients.

Also, Aadult stem cells come from a person's own body. A lot of it in located in the person's fat tissues. So the moral questions on that are mostly moot.


And there are a lot of people out there (read: me) who would rather stop this research from ever taking place because the costs to human and animal life are too great.With that attitude, we would still be living in caves. :sweat:


No more leaky silicone!!Yeap... You got my point in one try... :zim:

[Rabi~en~Rose]

something like this would make for the ultimate cosplay :) but I am against it even though I get sick often and easily being a cyborg or something would be like cheating death besides how do they make babies and if no one dies doesn't overpopulation happen? :confused:

[Paul_Cousins]

something like this would make for the ultimate cosplay :) but I am against it even though I get sick often and easily being a cyborg or something would be like cheating death besides how do they make babies and if no one dies doesn't overpopulation happen? :confused:Overpopulation is a myth, you could fit all six and half billion people on Earth comfortably in a state the size of Texas. Plus there is also Space and Ocean colonization.

[Karl Olson]

something like this would make for the ultimate cosplay :) but I am against it even though I get sick often and easily being a cyborg or something would be like cheating death besides how do they make babies and if no one dies doesn't overpopulation happen? :confused:

On reproduction and cyborgs: It's probably out. This also stops any possible overpopulation (though as it stands, birthrate in most first world countries is below replacement level anyway, so we'd eventually hit a max on our own.)

On death and cyborgs: Well, GitS seems to suggest that cyberization has some ailments of it own, so you wouldn't totally be cheating death. At point, the brain just has to give out.

On cosplay: It would be fun to have a spare body for cosplay. However, it makes crossplay even more jarring I suppose.

[Artimus Gigan]

On cosplay: It would be fun to have a spare body for cosplay. However, it makes crossplay even more jarring I suppose.I could imagine you and knux building matching Neko-Chan bodies...

But then realising the eyes would absorb too much light, the voice would shatter all glass in the surrounding area, and the sheer weight of the head would snap the neck, thus demobilsing the mecha suit...

[Ben]

Re: overpopulation, the population of the Earth is going to start shrinking in the next few decades (if it isn't already). So a lot of people who presented us with nightmare scenarios of an Earth with fifty billion people on it are going to look very silly.


Also, Aadult stem cells come from a person's own body. A lot of it in located in the person's fat tissues. So the moral questions on that are mostly moot.

I was referring more to the whole "cloning/genetically engineering people as replacements" thing. Though embryonic stem cells are also problematic (and from what I have heard limiting research to adult stem cells would slow the process considerably).


With that attitude, we would still be living in caves. :sweat:

Way to reduce a complex ethical issue into a quick soundbite! You should work for Fox News.

[Paul_Cousins]

1. On reproduction and cyborgs: It's probably out. This also stops any possible overpopulation (though as it stands, birthrate in most first world countries is below replacement level anyway, so we'd eventually hit a max on our own.)

2. On death and cyborgs: Well, GitS seems to suggest that cyberization has some ailments of it own, so you wouldn't totally be cheating death. At point, the brain just has to give out.

3. On cosplay: It would be fun to have a spare body for cosplay. However, it makes crossplay even more jarring I suppose.1. It depends on it the cyborgs have the organs for it.

2. Well a cyborg could be 'e-brained' and have their ghost uploaded into the net.

3. I know someone is going to eventually mention this dealing with cosplays. Spoiler tags in this case are for your own sanity.

You have been warned.

Anime otakus are not the sanest people around. Someone might eventually construct a 'shell' for a cosplay that looks like something straight out of a hentai anime.

Think Jamie's 'mutant' daydream scene from Megas XLR...

I pray that day NEVER happens... :sweat:


1. Re: overpopulation, the population of the Earth is going to start shrinking in the next few decades (if it isn't already). So a lot of people who presented us with nightmare scenarios of an Earth with fifty billion people on it are going to look very silly.



2. I was referring more to the whole "cloning/genetically engineering people as replacements" thing.



3. Way to reduce a complex ethical issue into a quick soundbite! You should work for Fox News.1. I know. Overpopulation is a myth.

2. I am talking about growing you own organs in your very own body, or having a machine produce the tissue needs at a moments notice like a 3D photocopier...

3. That's funny considering I watch Fox News.

[Ferquin]

On reproduction and cyborgs: It's probably out. This also stops any possible overpopulation (though as it stands, birthrate in most first world countries is below replacement level anyway, so we'd eventually hit a max on our own.)Well, it worked for Armitage.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Completely different universe. Still, I watched it again recently and it's a really interesting precursor to what GITS expanded upon. Highly recommended for those who haven't seen it.



Anime otakus are not the sanest people around. Someone might eventually construct a 'shell' for a cosplay that looks like something straight out of a hentai anime.

Think Jamie's 'mutant' daydream scene from Megas XLR...

I pray that day NEVER happens... :sweat: I take mild offense to that. Don't over generalize. I cosplay but I'm a perfectly sane individual. Cosplaying is just simple masquerade and having fun. I see nothing wrong with that as long as it's either within the bounds of good taste or as long as it's not offending anyone in the surrounding area.

[Karl Olson]

1. It depends on it the cyborgs have the organs for it.

And how much of yourself you cyberize.


2. Well a cyborg could be 'e-brained' and have their ghost uploaded into the net.

Which is this exact philosophical issue GitS often teases at.


3. I know someone is going to eventually mention this dealing with cosplays. Spoiler tags in this case are for your own sanity.

You have been warned.

Anime otakus are not the sanest people around. Someone might eventually construct a 'shell' for a cosplay that looks like something straight out of a hentai anime.

Think Jamie's 'mutant' daydream scene from Megas XLR...

I pray that day NEVER happens... :sweat:

Eh, I think those who do that from the cosplay context would be a very small minority (though like with all physical enhancements, you'll find someone, just like those guys who get scales put under their skin so they look reptilian.) Most people would probably just use it so they could cosplay a mainstream property, but better. The biggest change is that there would probably a lot less in the way of people with wrong physical proportions and appearance for their character in cosplay. In fact, it might even take some of the fun out of cosplaying; part of the trick is making the best of what you've got. If all you have to do is make an outfit for a body that (almost) perfectly fits the character, it kind of loses it's uniqueness.

[Beat]

What about lifespans? Data and metal can last a lot longer than flesh and bone.

[Artimus Gigan]

What about lifespans? Data and metal can last a lot longer than flesh and bone.Battle Angel Alita adressed immortality due to metal bodies and a flesh brain, imprint everything onto a chip and replace the brain with it, and about offspring make reproduction illegal and you can either eat the children or use them as game in bloodsports

[Beat]

Yeah, but all that time? No new blood, the human race would stagnate and decay.

Besides, I don't know if I'd want to be immortal, even as an Adrian Barbeau-bot...

[Karl Olson]

Yeah, but all that time? No new blood, the human race would stagnate and decay.

Besides, I don't know if I'd want to be immortal, even as an Adrian Barbeau-bot...

Yeah, but you'd be dead if your head was cut off. You'd be like the Highlander, and that was a documentary, and the events occurred in real time.

[Vallen Valiant]

Yeah, but all that time? No new blood, the human race would stagnate and decay.

Besides, I don't know if I'd want to be immortal, even as an Adrian Barbeau-bot...Errr... Since when did becoming a Cyborg make you immortal? That's just a myth western movies tell you!

Have you ever heard of any complex machinery that remained operational for, say, eighty years? Is there ANYTHING humans built electrically that had ever lasted a decade?

We have more chance to find the cure for cancer before we could make cybernetic parts last forever. Those who worry about the moral issues of immortality are getting ahead of themselves. We are not even close! Do you even know how regularly brain cells die off? Constantly, as you read this!

And those who complain about mind-transfers: You would build a copy, but the original still dies!

The Bicentennial-man has a lot to answer for... We have difficulty enough as it is to keep people from dying, and you have the nerve to complain about living forever? No wonder sick people's medical research are being stalled by hypothetical moral issues that 'could' appear if they ended up being saved instead of vomitting up their own lungs.:(

[shoujoaifan]

I have a few ideas rattingling around in this noggin as well, such as orinigal vs. copy.

A few ways to get around downloading a copy and not the orinigal mind is to slowly replace your brain with artificial parts, OR have your brain connected to a computer and have it slowly "move" into it, using the brain and the computer and the brain eventually dying and the computer living on. People have parts of their brain hacked off all the time.....

.....which leads to something interesting. Plenty of people have had literally half their brain removed and still live. Plenty of people, due to genetics, accidents, surgeries, etc., have the two hemispheres of the brain separated at the bundle of nerves that connect them. The idea is that there is one mind that uses both parts. These split-brain patients have two separate minds controlling one half of their body.

Can anyone tell me how we have two versions of one person and they BOTH be the orinigal?










Going back to orinigal vs. copy, even if we looked at it from an athiest POV (I'm agnostic, but for sake of argument), the only way we could make sure someone was not the copy, but the real deal is to make sure the mind is continous, that it never stops but is moved into the new hardware, not just copied. And if religion is right and there is a soul/spirit/whatnot, then.........well, its not like religion has told us yet wether or not a continous upload of a mind without interuption includes the soul, that's for a matter of belief.

Which brings me to something depressing. If its my only option, I'll gladly go on ice if the only way to save myelf/resurrect myself is cryogenics (there's TWO different types, freezing the corpse after its definitely dead, and preserving the brain past the point the body can be saved but THEORICALLY the brain is still alive and stopped at the freezing point and is brought back "on" when heated IF we ever get that technology. There's a new technology called "Vitrification" which puts the brain at a sublime, glass-like state instead of freezing and forming less of the damaging ice crystals (there's still some). They HAVE had some luck freezing and bringing back rabbit kidneys that work after the process.).

HERE'S the depressing part: IF we are just a mind generated by whatever medium, that medium is "turned off" (be a computer, a living brain frozen/sublime/vitrified, or a outright dead brain/body frozen), there's no soul, that's it, good-bye, that's all she wrote, then here's the question: Would that new mind that is generated by the medium when brought back on BE the orinigal person?

The consciousness, the US is not tangible, its somewhere in our brain activities, if not the SUM of them. IF, and this is a biggie, IF we really are just minds generated by a system of carbon molecules and there's no soul, then NO, and those cryogenically people are copies when brought back out. Copies within the same bodies as the orinigals. NO difference anyone can point out to you, but they would be copies. Mind clones.

The scary thing is that this has ALREADY happened. In order to operate on a person's brain, it has to be chilled to lower oxygen use when blood is cut off. ALL brain activity ceases. The mind is rebuilt, presumably from what is called the "engram", the pattern of neurons and chemicals in the brain that is formed as memories fade and strengthen. Those peoples, if we just are minds, are clones in the orinigals' bodies with no difference except being copies.









Didn't want to bring religion, athiesm, and agnostic, but those ARE part of the topic here, to discuss the ramifications of such technology, this is totally On-Topic and concerns ALL three of those ways of thinking.

Some people will choose to die through aging, accidents, suicide, etc. Others, even with cyborgization will die due to accidents, probability is agaisnt 100%, eternal immortality.

If I have to choose to pick a brain-chilling, mind-wiping surgery due to an accident in modern times, or in the future download a copy if not other choice, I will. I'll hope there's more to us than just our minds.

BUT if I can I'll try to keep my mind continous throughout it all and if uploading is ever required in the future, I'll try to get the kind where my mind is continous and is slowly uploaded into a a new medium without a break nor copying, but true "moving". Or, BETTER yet, move my physical brain into a shell and keep the gray matter alive as long as possible with stem cell cultures and organic replacement parts, teleomerse lengthening, free radical protection and prevention, ant-oxidants, DNA patching, etc.

Just in case ;)

P.S. Don't know about permament gender bending. depends how I like the other life, but trying that life out for a spell? HELL YES! :evil:

[Paul_Cousins]

1. And how much of yourself you cyberize.

2. Which is this exact philosophical issue GitS often teases at.1. None. And I meant to say "It depends on IF the cyborgs have the organs for it."

2. Actually 'e-braining' is talked about in the Ghost in the Shell Manga 2: Man-Machine Interface.


Which brings me to something depressing. If its my only option, I'll gladly go on ice if the only way to save myelf/resurrect myself is cryogenics (there's TWO different types, freezing the corpse after its definitely dead, and preserving the brain past the point the body can be saved but THEORICALLY the brain is still alive and stopped at the freezing point and is brought back "on" when heated IF we ever get that technology. There's a new technology called "Vitrification" which puts the brain at a sublime, glass-like state instead of freezing and forming less of the damaging ice crystals (there's still some). They HAVE had some luck freezing and bringing back rabbit kidneys that work after the process.).Be aware the cryogenics is currently a deadend until they figure out how to remove sugar molecules from human cells. The reason for this that in cold-blooded frogs for example, when they are frozen, they somehow have the sugar molecules in their cells removes as their cell shink.

But in humans, are we are frozen, the sugar molecules in the human cells crystalize within the cells and the cells are destroyed from within.

The good news is scientists and researcher just figured out out last week how to induce hibernation (temporarily turning a human from warm-blooded to cold-blooded) using low levels of the gas 'hydrogen sulfide'. You can read it here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=2&u=/nm/20050421/sc_nm/science_hibernation_dc

[shoujoaifan]

Be aware the cryogenics is currently a deadend until they figure out how to remove sugar molecules from human cells. The reason for this that in cold-blooded forgs for example, when they are frozen, they somehow have the sugar molecules in their cells removes as their cell shink.

But in humans, are we are frozen, the sugar molecules in the human cells crystalize within the cells and the cells are destroyed from within.

The good news is scientists and researcher just figured out out last week how to induce hibernation (temporarily turning a human from warm-blooded to cold-blooded) using low levels of the gas 'hydrogen sulfide'. You can read it here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=2&u=/nm/20050421/sc_nm/science_hibernation_dc Thanks for the link! I already know cryogenics is a dead end, just debating from a theotical standpoint if I was in such a situation.

Although are you SURE about the sugar molecules crystalizing?

Because in some situations, I think in earlier situations they switched the WATER out of a person's body with a type of sugar because the water is the one that crystalizes and sugar doesn't. (They're using something new in "vitrification", inducing a sublime, glass-like state that has vastly less amounts of crystals, I forget if its another type of sugar or a different chemical, I'll have to look it up.).

Q. Why does Batou have those type of prosethic eyes when eyes that look normal like Major's exist? (Not that his don't look cool.) Are they more powerful, like Saito's sniper eye is, but couldn't look normal with the added abilities, or is he just partial to them, like that masochistic president of the genetically engirneered pig farm and his "body", or Togusa and his revolver?

( Yes, I just compared Togusa with a madman. Its a brave new world.....that's stuck with me! :evil: )

[Funkatron]

Batou is not the only one. That tubby guy(can't remember name) has some not normal eyes as well

[Rabi~en~Rose]

ok so the opposite of overpopulation would have cyborgs arent immortal and there are no babies so eventually there would be no more people left :confused: yeah I'd rather remain sickly then contribute to something like that :p

[Sampo]

Batou is not the only one. That tubby guy(can't remember name) has some not normal eyes as well Tubby?! LOL


http://home.hawaii.rr.com/wizardgrey/images/GitS-SAC%20Characters/borma.jpg


*grabs a flame thrower and prepares to torch the site.*

[Vallen Valiant]

ok so the opposite of overpopulation would have cyborgs arent immortal and there are no babies so eventually there would be no more people left :confused: yeah I'd rather remain sickly then contribute to something like that :p
Err... Since when does sick, dying people contribute to world population?

People attached to life-support can't raise children...

What makes you think cyborgs live forever? Anything made of matter can die. And what's this about 'no more babies'?
Do you seriously think natural instinct to reproduce could be suppresed like that? You wish.

[Narselon]

Shoujoaifan, I was thinking the same thing. I was about to post it but then I saw you said what I was going to say.

Cyber brains, if they are downloaded, are just copies. It first came to me when the Major was switching bodies. Her mind was copied into a new one, but the original one is unaccounted for. Do we simply assume it is deleted? Isn't that essentially the death of the Major we know? Unless the brain is physically moved, every cyborg is just a copy. Although this does not invalidate the existance of the clone as a sentient being in its own right, the copy is not the person who she is modeled after.

This one detail left unnoticed keeps bugging me whenever I watch. It makes the show's world, which could reasonably exist in the future, seem a bit fake in my eyes.

[Vallen Valiant]

Shoujoaifan, I was thinking the same thing. I was about to post it but then I saw you said what I was going to say.

Cyber brains, if they are downloaded, are just copies. It first came to me when the Major was switching bodies. Her mind was copied into a new one, but the original one is unaccounted for. Do we simply assume it is deleted? Isn't that essentially the death of the Major we know? Unless the brain is physically moved, every cyborg is just a copy. Although this does not invalidate the existance of the clone as a sentient being in its own right, the copy is not the person who she is modeled after.

This one detail left unnoticed keeps bugging me whenever I watch. It makes the show's world, which could reasonably exist in the future, seem a bit fake in my eyes.

Ah, but you've missed the whole point of cyberbrains...
Major might remote-control any numbers of her spare bodies for her missions, but fundamantally there is only one 'Motoko' Cyberbrain. A cyberbrain is not a mechanical construct, but a flesh human brain with cybernetic components.

As anyone who read the second GITS manga would agree, even after Motoko merged with the Puppet master and become a new-age lifeform, there is still only one Motoko Kusanagi; Sure, her 'children' are entirely data based, has no brain matter, and are as individual and alive as they come.In fact, 'Motoko Aramaki', the main character in GITSMMI, came into conflict with one of her sisters named 'Millenium'. Major's kids are everywhere! But the 'Queen bee' remains.

When you get a cyberbrain in GITS, you don't dump your brain. You merely support it with extra mechanical devices.

The Motoko you saw with her head blown up in the latest episode was not the real one... That's why she didn't wear the watch. Remember that 'Immortal Hero' episode? They mentioned how the guy downloaded copies of his mind into androids, but the original died. Brain cells still matters in GITS.

[Paul_Cousins]

Ah, but you've missed the whole point of cyberbrains...
Major might remote-control any numbers of her spare bodies for her missions, but fundamantally there is only one 'Motoko' Cyberbrain. A cyberbrain is not a mechanical construct, but a flesh human brain with cybernetic components.

As anyone who read the second GITS manga would agree, even after Motoko merged with the Puppet master and become a new-age lifeform, there is still only one Motoko Kusanagi; Sure, her 'children' are entirely data based, has no brain matter, and are as individual and alive as they come.In fact, 'Motoko Aramaki', the main character in GITSMMI, came into conflict with one of her sisters named 'Millenium'. Major's kids are everywhere! But the 'Queen bee' remains.

When you get a cyberbrain in GITS, you don't dump your brain. You merely support it with extra mechanical devices.

The Motoko you saw with her head blown up in the latest episode was not the real one... That's why she didn't wear the watch. Remember that 'Immortal Hero' episode? They mentioned how the guy downloaded copies of his mind into androids, but the original died. Brain cells still matters in GITS.That was a 'Ghost Dubber", that copies someone's ghost at the cost of their life.

[Funkatron]

That was a 'Ghost Dubber", that copies someone's ghost at the cost of their life.
That and just a few eps ago Motako had to brainswitch after her body got damaged.

[shoujoaifan]

Controlling population numbers is hard as it is. Some countries have too many being born, resulting in overcrowding and scarce resources, other countries too little, which will lead to there being too many elderly to be able to take care of, and then eventually there being more senior citizens alive than younger people in the workforce.

Japan has banned oral birth control pills in an attempt to keep the falling birth rates from falling any lower, and the United States Social Security is going down the drain (which has even been admitted). Meanwhile in China there still is the monsterous atrocity of babies girls being killed because the parents want a boy to support them in their old age, while more caring parents will keep the girls, but still strive for a son, even after several of daughters. There is strict laws in China that both fine for additional children and welfare for keeping a small family. And of course the courts and prisons are MORE THAN HAPPY to execute convicts and harvest their organs........

BTW, what's the year in GITS? 2037? (I think its in the 30's). SURE, that's still a little over than thirty years from now, and ALOT does change in a little time. (Compare modern computers and video games to those of the 80's, or even how things in the last 5 years have changed. CD's began replacing tapes a few years ago, but already they're having to share the market with MP3's, while the legal world over THAT is always trying something with partial sucess).

But you gotta be realistic and not expect too much right away. ALOT of this, even if its cautionary cyberpunk, is still a bit wishful thinking.

Although.....

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/09/25/bionic.arm/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050223135857.htm

Nowhere near sophisicated yet, the one in the first article isn't even directly communicating with the nerves, and the second leaves much to be disired. But its a start :)

[Anime411]

Wow this is a nice serious discussion :D GITS take place in the year 2030, at least that's when the first episode starts. XD

[rhudson765]

If I'm allowed to swap into a Tachikoma, you'd better believe it.
I would too, but only if I could swap back into my own body.

[rhudson765]

Yeah also robots like Tachicomas can't do...well, they can't "go down stairs"
I mean you could probably get somthing out of an astromech droid...or somthing like a Dalek, but it would probably be the equivelent of touching an eletric fence with both hands while being covered in water...


I mean that's why the Jamerson type said his wife wasn't happy about the robot body operation

Unless ofcoruse you could keep yuor original body on ice or somthing
But it would be really hard to "get a rise" out of a frozen body. I would rather have a set of bodies, one for work, a couple for looks, a body like the Major's espeically if it were "fully functional", just to experiment with, a body for romance, and a Tachicoma for fun!

[Artimus Gigan]

But it would be really hard to "get a rise" out of a frozen body. I would rather have a set of bodies, one for work, a couple for looks, a body like the Major's espeically if it were "fully functional", just to experiment with, a body for romance, and a Tachicoma for fun!What I'm saying is that keeping your original body around in suspended animation has it's purposes...

also Fuchicomas are better than tachicomas...

[Paul_Cousins]

What I'm saying is that keeping your original body around in suspended animation has it's purposes...

also Fuchicomas are better than tachicomas...You realize the only difference between the two is the paint colors and the names.

They basically act the same.

[Artimus Gigan]

You realize the only difference between the two is the paint colors and the names.

They basically act the same.Fuchicomas have different arms and legs...

also they have more weapons attached to their butt

[Paul_Cousins]

Fuchicomas have different arms and legs...

also they have more weapons attached to their butt(sarcasm) What do you think those web-line weapons attached to the tachicomas buts are used for, jumping rope...