Clooney totally to blame for B&R failure?...

[Trent Lane]

I nkow, we've been over this and over, but was Clooney really the guy to blame for the mistake that was Batman & Robin? He's just the actor, it's not like he wrote the thing! He seemed to be bashing himself in that interview. IMO, he fit the part better than Kilmer did but the movie was just awful. Put anyone in as Batman for B&R and it would still have been just as bad... so, the actor is not really the guy to take the blame...

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by flhero311
I nkow, we've been over this and over, but was Clooney really the guy to blame for the mistake that was Batman & Robin? He's just the actor, it's not like he wrote the thing! He seemed to be bashing himself in that interview. IMO, he fit the part better than Kilmer did but the movie was just awful. Put anyone in as Batman for B&R and it would still have been just as bad... so, the actor is not really the guy to take the blame...

I definitely agree with that. I've never blamed Clooney for the movies failure. Likewise, I really think Kilmer, O'Donnell, and Jones were great choices for their roles, but I don't blame them for the end result of Batman Forever. There's only so much an actor can do when the story and direction are severely lacking.

[The Guard]

NO ONE could make Batman and Robin's script into a good movie. Have you all READ it? UGH!!!

except Stan Kubrick...nah, he'd have no chance...

[Kal-el]

Clooney, or any of the other actors for that matter, are not responsible for the crappiness of the movie. They most likely made it better (I use that term loosely) than it was.

[BWDK]

the only person you can blame are Schuhmacher and Schwarzenegger (sorry he was only an actor but he realley sucked!)

[doctorcrime]

i agree with everything said except tommy lee jones as two-face being a good casting decision. did you see that movie?

[Clayface]

I blame Clooney only for Clooney's bad acting. I blame the other bad actors for their bad acting. I blame Joel for the bad directing, and the writer for the bad writing. And I blame the set and costume designers for the bad sets and costumes. Anyone I'm missing anyone here? ;)

[BWDK]

Originally posted by doctorcrime
i agree with everything said except tommy lee jones as two-face being a good casting decision. did you see that movie?

I think TLJ really sucked! I had a hard time telling whih side was supposed to be the ugly one :D Maybe TLJ was suitable for the role when he was 20 years younger, but a 60 year old Two-Face who's as crazy as the Joker???

[Naraht]

Not sure if anyone here is familier w/MST3k, but fan MiSTings of both Batman & Robin, & Batman Forever can be found here -
http://lefty.simplenet.com/svam/ms-ame.html

=]

[ZorBrak]

Poor Clooney, I always thought he was a very good actor, and I still do, theres only so much an actor can do with a horrid script, it would have fit Keanu very well though (as he cant act at all IMO)

[Naraht]

Originally posted by ZorBrak
Poor Clooney, I always thought he was a very good actor, and I still do, theres only so much an actor can do with a horrid script, it would have fit Keanu very well though (as he cant act at all IMO)

Whoa

[The Game]

You defenitley can't blame Clooney. Personally I thought he was the worst Batman ever, but he didn't make that movie suck. Joel Schumacher did. And the writer. Think about some of the lines in that movie. It makes me sick just to think about it.

Clayface, how can you say the costumes were bad? That was the only good thing in the movie, but I thought they were good!

[Clayface]

Originally posted by thegame8866
Clayface, how can you say the costumes were bad? That was the only good thing in the movie, but I thought they were good!

Eh. In my opinion, they were all lame.

[Naraht]

Originally posted by Clayface


Eh. In my opinion, they were all lame.

Hear hear!!

Although Adam West was pretty cool...


er

</SARCASM>

[The Mad Hatter]

Clooney probably suffered more under Schumaker's direction. "Okay, that was pretty good, but I don't think you're smiling and nodding enough."

And those costumes... ech. Is there anything that could possibly make you an easier target than big, bright silver streaks? And when did they have time to change into them, anyway?

[Naraht]

Originally posted by The Mad Hatter
Clooney probably suffered more under Schumaker's direction. "Okay, that was pretty good, but I don't think you're smiling and nodding enough."

And those costumes... ech. Is there anything that could possibly make you an easier target than big, bright silver streaks? And when did they have time to change into them, anyway?

Well, you have to accessorize...and more cosumes == more action figures...

..wait, since when did the action figure makers need costumes to show up in the movie...hrm

[Karkull]

Y'know, this is like the fourth time that I've heard him take the credit that rightfully should go to Joel Schumacher and whoever wrote it. Does he really feel guilty for it or does the press just keep asking him?

[Heehaw]

I do blame Clooney, to a certain extent, for of the suckiness. His acting was just plain bad, and the fact that his Bruce and Batman voice were the same is inexcusable. In this day and age, the actor has a lot of clout when it comes to the direction a movie will take. He/She has a say in what gets done in a scene, esp. the big names. With that said, I fail to believe Clooney didn't know what he was doing was bad. The auction scene is a classic example. Batman and Robin are standing on stage in the public's eye and start arguing and outbidding one another for Ivy's hand. Batman pulls out a friggin' credit card for the love of mercy. Clooney(and everyone else on that stage) should have immediately taken Schmacher to the side and said, "Joel, time for a rewrite and tone change."

So, I only blame the actors for not taking the initiative and suggesting an improvement in the script and direction. I chalk it up to apathy. They were getting a fat check, and they simply didn't care about the quality. Schwarzeneggar is notorious for this type of thing.

Overall, the failure falls on Joel Schmacher for his poor direction, Akiva Goldman for his lame script, and producer Peter McGregor Scott for allowing it to happen in the first place. Of course, Scott wanted polar bears in the new Superman flick and wanted Luthor to have a Chewbacca sidekick(courtesy of Brainiac), so you can fill in the thought process that this man takes towards these types of pictures. Ultimately, I don't think Schumacher is a bad director. Look at the other pictures he's shot outside of the Batman films: The Lost Boys, Flatliners, St. Elmo's Fire, Falling Down, A Time to Kill, The Client just to name a few. His upcoming film, Phone Booth sounds like one to watch next year.

He's got the skills, just keep him away from Bats. :)

[electricsheep]

I believe Schumacher and Akiva Goldsman are to be blamed fully...
and you're right HeeHaw, Schumacher isn't a bad director, he just went in the completely wrong direction with the last two Batman movies, he moved away from a serious tone to a campy one... Adam West should have been Batman in the Batman & Robin movie...

[Barb Gordon]

Most of the blame as certainly got to be laid upon the script and the writers. Only so much can be placed on the director and the actors especially...not to mention casting directors (alicia silverstone as barbara...don't get me started...) Clooney is a very nice actor, and very nice looking too ;) lol, and it's a shame that he did the Batman movie. One, because he keeps taking blame on himself for ruining Batman, and two, because it hurt him as in actor, not mention our opinions on him as well. Sooner or later they'll have the right script and the right cast, here's hoping!

Barb^-^

[Trent Lane]

Hey, I respect Clooney's work- well, all of it but B&R. If you've seen moives like O Brother and Three Kings you know he does a good job. That's why I look past that movie and see all the other stuff he's done... and as foe old Joel, he should stick to things that don't involve super heroes in nipple and butt enhancing costumes, really, just quit now and save the world a little misery....

[X-human]

I think TLJ was perfect for two-face, but he was told to play it so screwy, and I'm really not sure why he went with it. He should have had much more sense than that.

I'd like to see him try Two-Face again without acting like a Joker-wannabe, but I don't want any recasts from any of the flicks, so just forget this film ever happend and harm anyone who actually purchases the DVDs.

[Justice League 2000]

Joel s is a bad film maker joel should not make a another batman film. Geroge clooney wasn"t the actor to play batman they should get keaton back as batman and burton behind the camera. ;)

a another roster in the house joker
Batman

[The New Batman]

A few people are to blame for those 2 disasters. First, and above all, Schumacher. I don't have to waste my time telling you why he is first. Arnold was a terrible Mr Freeze. He was way too happy and made bad jokes. It's really sad that a cartoon Mr Freeze was more believable. The Batgirl part of the script was also pretty bad, her lines were corny. I didn't really like Alicia's performance either. I didn't like Clooney either. He was to "happy" and cheery as Batman. I prefer a dark Batman. So basically, the whole movie was terrible. Batman Forever, though not as bad as Batman & Robin, was still pretty corney. A major complaint I have with both films is Schumacher adding so many lights. The Batmobile from both films looked like light shows. In conclusion, the last 2 Batman films were terrible and Schumacher can't direct Batman.

[LightAngel]

Personally, I didn't mind Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face, however, Alicia Silverstone as Batgirl was the the worst display of casting I have ever seen! She was just..ah...Annoying for lack of a better word!

[Heehaw]

I remember thinking Batman Forever was a "masterpiece"....after seeing Batman and Robin for the first time. Although Forever had it's stupid moments, it still had some semblance of the darkness that should have been all through it. I really hated both the villains. Too silly and campy and out of character. Carrey was simply doing a modern day Frank Gorshin when he should have taken his cues from BTAS. TLJ was trying to do Joker and who can forgive the scene where he flips the coin until he gets the scarred side. What's the point in taking a chance if he is going to flip it until he gets what he really wants. The only scene, with Two-Face, that I really liked was the very first speech he made to the bank security guard. Up until he had his henchmen put him in the vault, I thought it dead on perfect. No stupidity and nice and subdued and dark.

[Kal-el]

Maybe the last two Batman films can be labeled as "Elseworlds" variations on Bats and forgotten. Well, maybe not officially, but it helps for me to think that anyway. That way, starting over with a new, (hopefully) better direction will make for a strong renewel of the movie franchise.
I honestly wouldn't mind a different take on Batman. It can't et much worse than "B & R", can it?

[Justice League 2000]

2 days ago i saw a interview with george clooney and he says that I wasn 't the guy to play batman in batman robin movie.

[Maxie Zeus]

It is gallant of him to try to shoulder the blame, but hes not responsible for much of it. I think given the right script and director he could be a fine Batman.

[GrayGhost]

Originally posted by The Guard
NO ONE could make Batman and Robin's script into a good movie. Have you all READ it? UGH!!!...

EXACTLY. Any movie where Batgirl is NOT the Comish's daughter is just plain stupid also. My main blame is Joel Schumacker or however you spell his last name.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by GrayGhost

Any movie where Batgirl is NOT the Comish's daughter is just plain stupid also.


Eh. That doesn't bother me so much as a lot of other things in the movie. In the mainstream comics, Bab's isn't technically Jim Gordon's daughter anyway, though they've hinted she might be an illegitimate child of his.

[MattL.]

Or to be more accurate any Batgirl that isn't Barbra Gordon (excepting Batman Beyond of course) is just plain stupid.

I'll refrain from going on my anti-Cassandra rant. ;)

[Cosmocat]

Originally posted by Heehaw
I do blame Clooney, to a certain extent, for of the suckiness. His acting was just plain bad, and the fact that his Bruce and Batman voice were the same is inexcusable. In this day and age, the actor has a lot of clout when it comes to the direction a movie will take. He/She has a say in what gets done in a scene, esp. the big names. With that said, I fail to believe Clooney didn't know what he was doing was bad. The auction scene is a classic example. Batman and Robin are standing on stage in the public's eye and start arguing and outbidding one another for Ivy's hand. Batman pulls out a friggin' credit card for the love of mercy. Clooney(and everyone else on that stage) should have immediately taken Schmacher to the side and said, "Joel, time for a rewrite and tone change."

So, I only blame the actors for not taking the initiative and suggesting an improvement in the script and direction. I chalk it up to apathy. They were getting a fat check, and they simply didn't care about the quality. Schwarzeneggar is notorious for this type of thing.

Overall, the failure falls on Joel Schmacher for his poor direction, Akiva Goldman for his lame script, and producer Peter McGregor Scott for allowing it to happen in the first place. Of course, Scott wanted polar bears in the new Superman flick and wanted Luthor to have a Chewbacca sidekick(courtesy of Brainiac), so you can fill in the thought process that this man takes towards these types of pictures. Ultimately, I don't think Schumacher is a bad director. Look at the other pictures he's shot outside of the Batman films: The Lost Boys, Flatliners, St. Elmo's Fire, Falling Down, A Time to Kill, The Client just to name a few. His upcoming film, Phone Booth sounds like one to watch next year.

He's got the skills, just keep him away from Bats. :)

This is exactly why Clooney said he was the wrong man for the job. I remember him saying before that when he was making the movie, he didn't really have a grip on the character (and this can be directly attributed to Schumacher and Akiva Goldsman and their lack of vision for Batman's character -- they took out all of his personal conflict and turmoil in Batman Forever, so what was left? Nothing. Petty bickering, etc. Batman was now a hollow shell of what he used to be.). So, yes, his performance was bad, but I don't know if I can truly blame him for it. He was trying as best he knew how, and I give him props for that.

He's also said that he wishes he had a second chance, now that he knows and understands the character. I remember that he even wrote a treatment for a new Batman movie (a dark, film noir tale that had Bruce Wayne's voice-over throughout), but no one was interested.

All that said, though, I think George Clooney's a terrific actor. He is just so cool and he has great presence. I remember being totally blown away by his sheer presence in From Dusk Till Dawn.

[batE]

I'll admit I didn't see Batman 1. I'm deathly afraid of clowns (though the animated Joker is OK) and if I recall correctly, BATMAN came out not too long before/after the TV miniseries of Stephen King's IT, which, well, had an infinitely scarier (IMO) murderous clown.

For BATMAN RETURNS, I stood in line on opening day in the rain to see the movie, and I loved it. For BATMAN FOREVER, though I hate Jim Carrey like poison, I again braved long lines to see it.

Now, when B&R came out, I was by then a full-fledged Batfan. I loved TAS and I was looking forward to Batman 4, even though I'm not a huge Mr. Freeze fan, and I'm even less of an Schwarzenegger fan. But about a week before t came out, Clooney was being interviewed on some news station about the film. He was asked what his hopes were for the film, and he said something like "The Batman franchise is a great one, and I just hope I don't do anything to wreck that."

From that second on, I knew B&R was a dud. It was more the tone of his voice than the words when he made that statement. I didn't see the movie in theaters and I wasn't surprised when critics panned it. I saw it for the first time a few weeks ago, and geez if it didn't approach the level of crappiness that the Street Fighter movie had.

I think Clooney knew even before the public knew that B&R was bad and that he was not a great Dark Knight/Bruce Wayne. If he'd played Batman to perfection, though, we'd still have that awful script to contend with. Did Goldsman pen the first two scripts? Just the concept of B&R was really ridiculous, from the weird ice palace and the costumed henchman to the lines like "Ice to see you," and "Allow me to break the ice -- my name is Freeze." Just gross.

Clooney is a great actor, IMO, but he was miscast in this. But still without a much better script, Kilmer and Keaton would have probably failed just as miserably.

batE

[Naraht]

I sorta feel sorry for the WB....(not really..)

Batman is a very hard character to get right. Add to that people's preconceived notions of what Batman should be, and it becomes very hard to please everyone, even pleaseing the majority is hard.

When the 1st Batman movie came out, I was fairly young, and my main exposure to Batman was the campy 70's Live Action series.
I didn't really like the movie, cause it was to dark.

Now that I know alot more about Batman....I still don't like the first Batman movie (although it's the best of the bunch.)
Problem one, Batman doesn't kill. In fact, batman has gone out of his way to save the Joker on numerous occasions.
Problem two, The Joker is insane...bouncing off the walls insane. Not brooding trying to get the girl insane. *sigh*

I dunno. I liked the guy who played Alfred in the movies...he was good.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by naraht
I sorta feel sorry for the WB....(not really..)

Well, to be fair we have to give them credit for backing the first movie, and the BTAS spin-off. Of course, what they gave with one hand they subsequently took away with the other. Sigh. :(

[The Game]

I really don't think Clooney was the biggest problem with Batman and Robin. Mainly the writer and director are responsible for the movie's overall appeareance, style, and dialogue, and those are the major faults of the movie. If you ask me you can't blame the actors as much.

Clooney, Shwartzenegger- Yes, of course they were miscast, but they both could have pulled off a decent Batman or Mr. Freeze, but Shumacher had them play it "happy". With some of the lame lines in the movie, and Schumacher's campy direction, how could Clooney play a decent Batman?

I agree though- the only TRUE Batgirl is Babs Gordon.

[Naraht]

I think I'm the only one here who sorta like Arnie's performance as Mr. Freeze...

Yeah, he was too damn happy, and had too many quips..but that's what the script called for. While I didn't like the costume, I could see him as Mr. Freeze...


oooh, new smiley.... :bosko: