JL - Hero vs Hero : Ranking the Members

[Stupendous Man]

I love the new Justice League series.

One issue I have though is that they seem to
fluctuate the power levels of all its members
(especially Superman and Green Lantern).

The fanboy in me demands consistency ..
so for what its worth Ive created my own
rankings of the Justice League and will open
it up for debate by the forum.

Rankings go from first to last place

STRENGTH

Superman
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Batman
Hawk Girl
Green Lantern (natural strength not enhanced by ring)
Flash


SPEED - running & flying

Flash
Green Lantern
Superman
Wonder Woman
Hawk Girl
Martian Manhunter
Batman


REFLEXES

Flash
Wonder Woman
Superman
Batman
Hawk Girl
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern

INVULNERABILITY or CONSTITUTION

Basically the ability to take damage ..

Green Lantern (assuming hes using his ring to shield himself)
Superman
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Batman
Hawk Girl
Green Lantern (without his ring)
Flash

TACTICS & STRATEGY

Batman
Superman
Green Lantern
Hawk Girl
Martian Manhunter
Wonder Woman
Flash


OVERALL MOST POWERFULL

Green Lantern (using ring , obviously)
Superman
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Flash
Hawk Girl
Batman


I have a feeling some of you will debate these rankings ..

Let the games begin.

[The Guard]

I DIGRESS!!!

Based on your terms...and what we've seen.

THE REAL GAME BEGINSSS...

STRENGTH

Superman
Wonder Woman
J'onn
Hawkgirl
Batman
Green Lantern
Flash

SPEED

Flash
Superman
Green Lantern
J'onn
Wonder Woman
Hawkgirl
Batman

REFLEXES

Flash
Batman
Wonder Woman
J'onn
Green Lantern
Superman
Hawkgirl

STAMINA

Green Lantern
Superman
Wonder Woman
Hawkgirl
J'onn
Batman
Flash

TACTICS

Batman
Green Lantern
J'onn
Superman
Wonder Woman
Hawkgirl
Flash

OVERALL (Most Dangerous...Useful...)
Batman
Green Lantern
J'onn
Superman
Wonder Woman
Flash
Hawkgirl

Ok...now what do you disagree with there. I have reasons for everything...heh heh heh...

[BeastBoyWonder]

its not the "power" of each individual that draws me to JL, its how they interact together. I care much more about their personalities than their power, so I feel that "rankings" don't exist, and that all of this stuff is qualitative.

[LastSonofKrypton]

Here's my (completely subjective) rankings:

Rankings go from first to last place

STRENGTH

Superman
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Batman
Hawkgirl
Green Lantern
Flash


SPEED - running & flying

Flash
Superman
Green Lantern
Wonder Woman
Hawkgirl
Martian Manhunter
Batman


REFLEXES

Flash
Superman
Wonder Woman
Batman
Hawkgirl
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern

INVULNERABILITY or CONSTITUTION

Superman
Green Lantern
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Batman
Hawkgirl
Flash
Green Lantern (without his ring)

TACTICS & STRATEGY

Batman
Superman
Green Lantern
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Hawkgirl
Flash


OVERALL MOST POWERFUL

Superman
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern
Flash
Batman
Hawkgirl

[Batman 80]

STRENGTH

Superman
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Batman
Hawkgirl
Green Lantern
Flash
I agree with this

SPEED - running & flying

Flash
Superman
Green Lantern
Wonder Woman
Hawkgirl
Martian Manhunter
Batman

Speed(my version)
Flash
Superman
Hawkgirl
Wonder Woman
J'onn J'ozz
Green Lantern
Batman

REFLEXES

Flash
Superman
Wonder Woman
Batman
Hawkgirl
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern

Agree with this as well

INVULNERABILITY or CONSTITUTION

Superman
Green Lantern
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Batman
Hawkgirl
Flash
Green Lantern (without his ring)

I agree

TACTICS & STRATEGY

Batman
Superman
Green Lantern
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Hawkgirl
Flash

Tactics & Strategy

Batman
Green Lantern
Superman
Wonder Woman
J'onn J'ozz
Hawkgirl
Flash

OVERALL MOST POWERFUL

Superman
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern
Flash
Batman
Hawkgirl

I would put Batman ahead of the Flash
This ofcourse is just my opinion.

[Joe Tully]

Spirit, I'd put Hawkgirl above Batman in strength...She's been tossed through walls and stuff, which Bats wouldn't take. Also, I'd put J'onn just below Bats in strategy--though this is kinda hard since we haven't seen a lot from J'onn yet, I give him big points for planning with Bats in Secret Origins. He didn't notice the moon thing in the last ep. while Supes did, but still I'd rank him above Supes. But that's just my fanboy opinion, so I understand if you disagree.

[metaphysician]

A key thing, though is that Batman's intelligence and strategic abilities are FAR greater than any other JLer. Given enough planning time, he is BY FAR the most powerful JLer.

Even without preptime, however, the preparations he just makes as a matter of course make him fully JL worthy.

[Stupendous Man]

I placed Green Lantern as faster than Superman in this
thread.

Several people have dismissed this completely and made
Superman faster. I think thats cause theres this fanboy
attitude that Supermans the best period without even
taking time to consider some of the questions .


Heres why logically Green Lantern is faster than Superman.


Green Lanterns travel through space to other planets.
They do it in very little time.

They dont teleport ...so obviously there able to move
faster than the speed of light.

There is nothing to indicate that superman has the
ability to fly faster than light ...so therefore
Green Lantern can fly faster and farther than
Superman.

Whod like to dispute this ?

Hell making Flash top guy on this list is almost a
sentimental decision ... We want him to be the fastest man
alive .
But a strong arguement could be made that GL can travel at
speeds faster than even the Flash.

For now though I state GL is a solid number 2 with
Supes a distant 3rd.

[Kal-el]

I was wondering this after your post Spirit. With the abilities of the GL's ring beginning with the mind of the particular GL, if he (or she) had the knowledge and understanding of faster than light travel, could that then be applied to the abilities of the ring, making a "warp speed" possible?
Sounds a bit odd, but I think it does have merit. If the ring is limited by the wearer's mind (and it's own finite power supply), applying the theories of warping space or faster than light travel should be possible. Thoughts? Ideas?
If this could be true, I would have to say GL would be the fastest, at least over great distances.

[Stupendous Man]

Originally posted by Kal -el

If the ring is limited by the wearer's mind (and it's own finite power supply), applying the theories of warping space or faster than light travel should be possible. Thoughts? Ideas?
If this could be true, I would have to say GL would be the fastest, at least over great distances.



Thats pretty much the gist of my arguement Kal.

Although i dont think that knowledge of Warp physics would be necessary for the ring to allow its user to work ... only a
specific desire and the will power necessary to enable the
ring to follow its masters request.

You have to assume that many cultures of whose citizens
were chosen to become GL's may be pre-warp tech cultures like
earth. But all GLs have to travel between worlds ..so
knowledge of the specifics must not be necessary.

I brought this up because it upsets me when Superman is
chosen without real thought over the possible scenarios.

I think its a given that GL is faster over distances than Superman .


~


I would also argue that , prepared , GL is able to sustain more
damage than Superman with his shields.

X factor with GL is it all depends on how focused he is.

If GL is expecting an attack and protects himself ...he
can outlast Superman.

If hes distracted or unfocused or caught by suprise
even Aquaman can sucker punch him - as observed in
last weeks episode.

[Clayface]

I'm not real sure the laws of physics apply in this cartoon. I mean, the whole crew flew to another part of the universe to be at GL's trial. They must have all flown faster than the speed of light if that was the case.

[Stupendous Man]

Originally stated by Clayface

I'm not real sure the laws of physics apply in this cartoon. I mean, the whole crew flew to another part of the universe to be at GL's trial. They must have all flown faster than the speed of light if that was the case.




We are all aware that in some instances the rules of the real world dont apply in a super hero universe.

However the job of a good writer is to make them work whenever possible ... and our job as fans is to come up with
reasonable explanations when the writers goof.

As for your question about the Javelin traveling to GL 's trial.

I think its fair to say that the Javelin has warp engines & technology.

Where that technology comes from is anyones guess.

I would imagine its Thangarian technology supplied by
HawkGirl. Thangarians are a star traveling species.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by The Spirit

However the job of a good writer is to make them work whenever possible ... and our job as fans is to come up with
reasonable explanations when the writers goof.



Not me. When the writers goof, I just like to point it out and complain about it. I don't have the time, energy, or desire to come up with solutions that explain a screw-up! ;)

[Stupendous Man]

I think it would be easier ..and inspire more interesting dialogue
if everyone disputed my rankings with their thought process
rather than creating their own rankings.

Tell us why you disagree ...otherwise this just becomes a string of lists.

However .. I do note that the Gaurd believes Martian Manhunter
flies faster than Wonder Woman.

I would have to disagree ...
I think that wonder woman probably is nearly
as fast as Superman.

Whats more if you study secret origins ...MM is always
shown in more of a casual floating ...where WWoman is
shown zipping around speedily.

I have to say that Wonder Woman flies faster than MM.

[Kal-el]

Originally posted by Clayface
I'm not real sure the laws of physics apply in this cartoon. I mean, the whole crew flew to another part of the universe to be at GL's trial. They must have all flown faster than the speed of light if that was the case.
They would have had to, or they wouldn't have arrived there for a very long time.

Spirit, I agree with you about GL. His concentration level would need to be very clear and focused...a loss of focus could be terminal for one.
The knowledge alone of something like warping space would definitely not be enough. An intricate understanding of the practice or theory, along with how to apply it, would be needed. A GL's greatest weapon is his mind. As evidenced in "IBN 1 and 2", the GL's do not have to be physically imposing in any way.
The one thing that Supes may have on a GL is the ability to take attacks or fire from mulitple offenders. Straight on attacks, though, GL's would, a majority of the time, be superior.

[Stupendous Man]

Originally posted by Clayface ..

Not me. When the writers goof, I just like to point it out and complain about it. I don't have the time, energy, or desire to come up with solutions that explain a screw-up!



Well then son , step aside and let us professional speculators
take care of this.


{ rolling up my sleeves }

Now how did Batman get that Giant Penny into the batcave ?
hmmm..............

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Kal-el

They would have had to, or they wouldn't have arrived there for a very long time.



And that's my point exactly. I never really understand threads like this - goes back to why I don't, in general, like superhero comics. Trying to apply logic and the laws of physics to something that by definition violates those laws. Seems like a silly waste of time to me. But hey, we all need hobbies I guess! ;)

[Stupendous Man]

Originally posted by Clayface

. I never really understand threads like this - goes back to why I don't, in general, like superhero comics. Trying to apply logic and the laws of physics to something that by definition violates those laws. Seems like a silly waste of time to me.



Its suprising to hear you say you dont like superhero comics
as you seem to enjoy Justice League , have named yourself after a relatively obscure comic book character and your surfing
a cartoon website - specifically a superhero related thread.

At any rate the reason why people enjoy these threads ..
or the reason I enjoy them at any rate ..

is because we love these heros and the world they inhabit.

And when you love characters and their universe this much
the pleasure is in the details.

The more you love the more you want to know.

Its the reason why a book like the Lord of the Rings is so
popular . Because Tolkien made his readers hungry for the
world he created in words ..and Tolkein satiated that hunger
with a history and languages and dialects that were so real
if felt like you were reading actual events.

And thats why I want to know everything about Superman
and his colleagues.

And why we enjoy postulating whose faster Superman or the
Flash .

Because we love these characters. And we want them to be as
real as possible.

(the answer is Flash by the way).

[Kal-el]

Originally posted by The Spirit
Now how did Batman get that Giant Penny into the batcave ?
hmmm..............

Maybe he put a call in to Superman saying he really needed his help (full well know Supes would jump at the chance to actually assist Bats). When he got there he asked him to carry it sideways or something, while sitting back and grinning :cool:

but I digress...

We all know of the the abilities set for the superheroes in the comics. In the animated world, since it seems, IMO, that the powers have been altered slightly, we don't have a solid example to base what their powers should be.

I do think WW is faster than MM in the air. Ground speed? Not sure. Neither have really shown any kind of ground speed yet.

Actually, when MM is phased, his is (at least so far in JL), invulnerable...eveything just passes through him (hopefully the JL doesn't come across the Ghostbusters). WW has not taken a direct hit (that I know of). She deflected everything with her bracelets (umm, shot at her legs maybe?). Not sure yet about her overall staying power.

[Stupendous Man]

Originally posted by Kal -el

We all know of the the abilities set for the superheroes in the comics. In the animated world, since it seems, IMO, that the powers have been altered slightly, we don't have a solid example to base what their powers should be.



I think you assume the powers are the same as in the comics
untill the show demonstrates otherwise.

And if theres a discrepancy between the show and the comics ..
the comic lore is the legitimate answer while the show situation is only true of the show. Or you differentiate between animated
answers and comic answers.

Wonder Woman is a mystery on this show ..because in the comics shes currently invulnerable.
On the show they're reverting back to the bracelets as a form of defense.

It could be that the animated Wonder Woman is more vulnerable than the comic Wonder Woman ...which would mean that her
reflexes have to be much greater to reflect lasers off her bracelets.

Id probably have to rate her second only to the flash in reflexes based on this logic.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by The Spirit

Its suprising to hear you say you dont like superhero comics
as you seem to enjoy Justice League , have named yourself after a relatively obscure comic book character and your surfing
a cartoon website - specifically a superhero related thread.



I know - odd, aren't I? ;)

I'm mainly a fan of Batman and the bat-universe. I've always viewed it as different than your typical superhero comic/universe because Bats is just a man with wits and some gadgets, rather than superpowers. I don't really consider him a "superhero", as my definition of superhero means the character has superpowers.

I am in fact enjoying Justice League. For the most part I don't care for the typical superhero stories you find in cartoons and comics, but the JL show has enough style and flair to keep me interested. Plus they keep making Bats look really good by making him swing in and save the day or come up with all the answers - I can't complain about that! :D




Its the reason why a book like the Lord of the Rings is so
popular . Because Tolkien made his readers hungry for the
world he created in words ..and Tolkein satiated that hunger
with a history and languages and dialects that were so real
if felt like you were reading actual events.



Heh. Kind of a bad example to use with me, as I can't stand Tolkien's work. But I understand what you're saying.

[Kal-el]

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, just making observations.
We all know Batman is human. He's at the peak of human endurance, strength, intelligence...but even he shows signs of superpowers (in the animated universe, anyway).
First, the pounding he takes. An example is from "World's Finest." Superman body checks him into a wall. He's dazed, but no serious injuries. Sure, he probably knows how to take a far to minimize injury, but all the time?
Second, the way he traverses Gotham city (and other cities). He shoots grappling hooks and swings all over the place. He jumps from heights that would break legs, or at least sprain ankles, but no injuries or great fatigue.
He also has extrordinary accuracy with the bat-a-rang. Shouldn't his aim fail him every so often.
I'm not trying to down grade Batman in any way. Honest. It seems to me that he is at least a "super" human, while not possessing super powers.

[GrayGhost]

REFLEXES

Flash
Wonder Woman
Superman
Batman
Hawk Girl
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern

I dunno. Flash always seems to be tripping and letting things smash into his head.

Batman above WW and Supernot.

[Stupendous Man]

Originally posted by Gray Ghost

Batman above WW and Supernot.



This is tricky .
Batman is at peak human condition ...
bordering on meta human based on
his determination and training.


I also love Batman so I see myself falling
into the trap of wanting him to be better
than everybody.

However ...he is still human.
While I could be convinced that his
natural reflexes are faster than Supermans if
Superman isnt consciously activating his superspeed.


I cant in good concious say hus reflexes are faster
than the Flash.

And its hard to beat WWoman shed deflecting lasers
with her wrists.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Kal-el
I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, just making observations.
We all know Batman is human. He's at the peak of human endurance, strength, intelligence...but even he shows signs of superpowers (in the animated universe, anyway).
First, the pounding he takes. An example is from "World's Finest." Superman body checks him into a wall. He's dazed, but no serious injuries. Sure, he probably knows how to take a far to minimize injury, but all the time?



Well, a couple things here. I agree that they push his abilities too much in the animated universe. That's partially why I prefer the comics - at least sometimes they show the repercussions of these thing in the mainstream comics. He throws out muscles, break bones, tear ligiments, and just takes a tremendous amount of pain and damage.

But, in either case, there's always a bit of suspension of disbelief that comes into play. And that goes back to why I don't understand the need to nitpick and explain every little detail - its a fantasy - a fiction. Why bother?

But, to be nitpicky myself (and thus contradict everything I've been saying ;) ), I'll comment on your example from "World's Finest". Seems to me that Supes would have pulled his punch a bit - I mean, the guy knows he can kill if he uses his full force, and would have, I think, not used enough force to do any real damage.




Second, the way he traverses Gotham city (and other cities). He shoots grappling hooks and swings all over the place. He jumps from heights that would break legs, or at least sprain ankles, but no injuries or great fatigue.



Not necessarily. The better shape you're in, the more punishment your body can take. And in the mainstream comics, he does indeed get injuries form the things he does- well, at least sometimes....




He also has extrordinary accuracy with the bat-a-rang. Shouldn't his aim fail him every so often.



Not necessarily. I mean, there are people that are such good marksmen that they can hit the bullseye 99 times out of a 100. And there have been plenty of times in the comics where Batman's missed or been ineffective with his shots. That's another reason I like the Batman comics - he's not perfect.

[Kal-el]

Dealing with reflexes, I've always thought of Superman as a "read and react" type. Batman thinks ahead, anticipating his opponent's next move. He would know what defensive or offensive move he would make 1-3 moves before he makes it, while Superman, it seems, reacts to everything as it's happening. Flash and WW, from what I've seen, are similar to Supes, relying on their power of speed to react instead of anticipation.
This being said, Bbatman's reflexes may be superior.
Now, all things being even with no anticipation or preparation possible and all 7 JLers using their abilities to their maximum, I'd have to go with Flash, followed by Supes with WW a very close third.

[Kal-el]

Originally posted by Clayface



Not necessarily. I mean, there are people that are such good marksmen that they can hit the bullseye 99 times out of a 100. And there have been plenty of times in the comics where Batman's missed or been ineffective with his shots. That's another reason I like the Batman comics - he's not perfect.
[/B]
I can't argue with your response. Really, that's what tends to bug me a bit about the animated universe. He's more "human" in the comics. I was basing my statement primarily on the animated variety of Batman.

[Stupendous Man]

Originally posted by Kal regarding reflexes ..

I'd have to go with Flash, followed by Supes with WW a very close third.




I have to stick to the way I ranked them originally..
1st - Flash
2cnd- Wonder Woman
3rd - Superman

You have Superman at second even though you
state Superman is totally reactive.

Wonder Woman deflects lasers with her bracelets !
She deflect things traveling at the speed of light !!
Do you understand the implications of that ?

I wonder why you insist then that Superman
has better reflexes that Wonder Woman?

Maybee its because hes a man ?
Perhaps your a tad sexist ? LOL

But seriously .. Using Secret Origins as a reference .

How many times did they tag Supes with lasers knocking him
around? For god sakes a brick wall fell on him.

He wasnt fast enough to avoid a falling wall ...
Wonder Woman is deflecting items traveling at the
speed of light !!!

Does anyone see my point ?

reflexes : Wonder Woman ...then Superman.

[Kal-el]

Originally posted by The Spirit



I have to stick to the way I ranked them originally..
1st - Flash
2cnd- Wonder Woman
3rd - Superman

You have Superman at second even though you
state Superman is totally reactive.

Wonder Woman deflects lasers with her bracelets !
She deflect things traveling at the speed of light !!
Do you understand the implications of that ?

I wonder why you insist then that Superman
has better reflexes that Wonder Woman?

Maybee its because hes a man ?
Perhaps your a tad sexist ? LOL

But seriously .. Using Secret Origins as a reference .

How many times did they tag Supes with lasers knocking him
around? For god sakes a brick wall fell on him.

He wasnt fast enough to avoid a falling wall ...
Wonder Woman is deflecting items traveling at the
speed of light !!!

Does anyone see my point ?

reflexes : Wonder Woman ...then Superman.
I ranked Supes ahead of WW when both were using their reflex abilities to their utmost.
Also, to reference "The Enemy Below", WW allowed a pile of rubble to fall on her...if her reflexes were what you say, she should have been able to get out of the way.
In all fairness, lasers as shown on JL are nowhere near the speed of light.
Also in "Secret Origins", wasn't there a scene right after WW showed up (after deflecting energy blasts) when an enitre alien ship was heading towards her...and she didn't move? I belive so. It was up to GL to save her. She should have been able to grab HG and fly out of there before the ship crashed.