Lex Luthor: Dr. Wily vs. David Xanatos

[Ian]

One of the biggest initial changes when Justice League first started was in Lex Luthor. Whereas he had, until then, mirrored his Post-Crisis self; Injustice for All drastically changed that status quo, changing Luthor into something more in line with his Pre-Crisis days: a mad scientist with a yen for killing super-heroes.

It was not to last. After three appearances, Luthor was changed once again, in A Better World. Now, he seems most similar to his Smallville self--that of a private citizen, "allied" with The Good Guys, who may or may not have a hidden agenda.

Now, my point. These changes all happened relatively quickly, in little more than twenty/ten episodes. The dude turns bad, makes a cameo in Legends, and stars in only one more episode (Tabula Rasa) before going respectable again. In any case, the quick reversal could be taken to be TPTB’s admission that they screwed up by turning Luthor into a fugitive.

So, what do you think? With Luthor’s Dr. Wily episodes now years behind us, do you feel it was a good route for the character to take? Should Lex have remained a mad scientist, or do you feel his current/original persona fits him better? Finally, do you think Luthor’s journey was planned by TPTB or largely accidental?

[Fone Bone]

I think Luthor's stint as a criminal just makes this whole arc of him running for president more interesting. (It also says that perhaps the producers don't have much faith in the public's voting habits, but that's just speculation). I think it was important for Luthor to hit rock-bottom to fully round the character. It felt to me that every step of his journey was planned so that his "reformation" would actually feel believable rather than something that you were POSITVE was only a smokescreen. Now I am not so sure, which is because of the fact that he HAD been in prison or a fugitive and is now dying.

At first I thought the thread was a who would win between Luthor and Xanatos poll. I'll answer that anyways. Xanatos would ALWAYS win against Luthor in any situation because he always thought about EVERY possible outcome in a situation whereas Luthor's plans have often been unraveled simply by his huge ego and being taken by total surprise by outcomes he hadn't forseen.

[BlackoutCreature]

I hated "Injustice for All" and i hated Luthor in it. Its not so much that i was against turning him into a villainous mad scientist on par with his pre-Crisis version. If the writers and producers could get that to work in the modern JL, then id be all for it. The problem is they didnt get it to work (atleast not in I4A). His downfall was just so rushed and half-heartedly done, and then his portrayal afterwards just made him look short-sided and at times plain stupid, and he never came off as the threat they wanted him to be. Thats not Lex Luthor under any circumstance.

That said, i think they did do a good job making the mad-scientist Luthor look like a real threat in "Tabula Rasa". The new Luthor showed real potential there.

But in the end, im glad they dropped that portrayal of him. I think the current portrayal has much more story-telling potential. And honestly i always got the feeling that Luthor's speech at the end of "A Better World" was Bruce Timm's way of apoligizing for "Injustive for All".

[PuppetMaster21J]

I like the ups and downs that Luthor taken, it makes you wonder what goes on behind the scenes.

~Joe

[Alba Aulbath]

"Mad scientist" Luthor never really appealed to me. I never liked him that way in Superfriends and hell if I enjoy it in Justice League. While "Injustice For All" wasn't a bad episode or anything of the like, Lex Luthor being a fugitive never really appealed to me. I always appreciated him more as the businessman who could get away with practically everything because of his status, and it was his status and his ego that made him so dangerous to Superman.

I'm not sure if I can believe that he's reformed, though it'd be way too obvious if he was connected to recent events. So I'll have to say that I don't mind Lex as a politician now - since maybe see politicians as villains anyway and it works for Lex.

I'll prefer the human being who dislikes Superman and his superpals over the mad scientist.

[DisneyBoy]

Nice topic, bad thread title :p


There's no doubt that I4A did a poor job of bringing Luthor into a new phase of his life, so for me the question isn't so much of whether or not it was done right, but more whether it could have been. The answer there is a yes. I have to agree with Fone when he said that it was interesting seeing him hit rock bottom. Everyone in positions of high power only stay there so long, so showing that there could be more to Luthor's character than simply being a permanently all-powerful mortal was very realistic. At some point, he was going to have to start dealing with the consequences of his illegal and dangerous actions, and after all the set up in S:TAS, I was really hoping to see some of that come back to slap him upside the head. Instead, the kryptonite poisonning was used as a "quick fix" to launch the story forward. While it technically did the job of explaining why Luthor would change so suddenly, I prefer to believe those consequences also played a part. That the stockholders no longer had faith in him. That over time, all the gossip and stories about his life had begun to take their toll.

Not to get too political here, but look at Bush. As a rather un-education Canadian as far as politics go, when he was elected the first time, I thought "Oh, isn't that nice? He's doing what his father did." Then I heard about the voting scandal, and started to feel a little ill at ease. Then the war started, and I knew I wasn't comfortable with that. Now, he's been re-elected in the face of the strongest public disaproval I've ever seen in my life and seems to be continuing to do what he wants to do, sitting on top of the world. So, even in real life, the rich and powerful are judged for their actions. The public remembered who Shayera was, and I'm sure that they all were starting to notice what role Luthor had been playing in things. He left the door open for terrorists to take the Lexoskel suit. He was the first man to make contact with Brainiac. He was rumored to have been in cahoots with the Joker. He was right there, kryptonite needle in hand, when the brainwashed Superman was finally captured. These are things that might in some shape or form leak out to the public, so when I heard Luthor would be completely turning to a life of crime, I expected the story to touch on these issues to one extent or another. Instead, we got a set-up by the League that really shouldn't have made much more of a dent in his public persona than a living witness testifying against him. This is Lex Luthor we're talking about, people. He didn't get to where he was by taking huge risks and not being able to walk away from them unscathed.

All this to say, the set-up was a bit of a mess. Now onto the 'mad scientist' angle. It was a new way to go, and certainly fit with an evil character. Being forced out into the spotlight after decades of staying in the shadows, unnoticed, I could believe he'd choose an angry rampage over pleading innocent. And once you let that kind of rage out, it isn't the easiest thing to stop. Look at Two-Face and Mr Freeze. His appearances though, could have been more substantial rather than stylish. Looking back, it felt like he simply dipped his toe into a pool of water rather than dive all the way in, and since he so loved being up in that office in the clouds, I was hoping to see more rage and fury from him once he found himself down on the street, wanted and friendless. I think I wanted to see him handle his situation on his own too, not in terms of hand-to-hand combat, but in terms of survival smarts. Instead, he simply ran around getting as much help as he could. The Injustice Gang, Mercy and Amazo all come to mind. Now though, he's back on his own. Sure, he got some help from the League in trying to avoid being murdered by Amazo, but in that last moment, he saved himself. I like those types of moments of truth, although that particular one didn't come off too convincingly in my mind, though that was the fault of the chosen dialogue more than anything else.

I'm not saying I could have done better, mind you, but when I think of how Luthor was handled on Lois and Clark, when he went bad and had to pull things off without help, I have to say there was something a bit better about that interpretation.

[Alex Weitzman]

Ultimately, I see very little difference in the varities of Luthor from episode to episode. His situations change, but he himself has remained very consistent in each appearance. In Injustice, he hit a place where his fury at Superman was so overwhelming as to take a direct route of revenge. It clearly failed, and the writers are smart enough to let the character recognize that and try different approaches. Tabula Rasa was somewhere in-between, on the wrong side of the law but clearly yearning to take back what was once his. A Better World afforded him the opportunity to do so, and we know where it's gone since then. My guess is that revenge is never far from Lex Luthor's thoughts, but thanks to the failure of his Injustice approach, he's taking a sneakier path.

See? I think it's more fun to treat the characters' decisions like their own than say "This writer sucked, this writer was okay, etc." Only when things get blatantly discordant do I feel the need to start taking my focus backstage.

[90'sCartoonMan]

At first I thought the thread was a who would win between Luthor and Xanatos poll. I'll answer that anyways. Xanatos would ALWAYS win against Luthor in any situation because he always thought about EVERY possible outcome in a situation whereas Luthor's plans have often been unraveled simply by his huge ego and being taken by total surprise by outcomes he hadn't forseen.
Yeah, but if they both had their armor, Luthor would win because his firepower is tougher.

After "A Better World", Luthor became THE VILLAIN to watch. I like that direction they took with him. They couldn't simply use the Luthor from STAS on JL because he's not grand enough. With Amazo and going into politics, he is. I like him being in different situations because now you really don't know what his agendas are. And everything he does is Superman's fault.

[Yojimbo]

I like Luthor's character evolution over the years, from the villain that was a slick businessman to the supervillain bent on destroying the League and now the anti-villain from "the return" and beyond. He boasts about dedicating the rest of his life to making a positive impact on the world, but is it really positive from the world's perspective or his? Since then and comparing it to the few bits of dialogue the Justice Lords' universe version, perhaps he is going for a nihilistic approach and trying to create an ultimate balance, one with no cycle of war and peace and perhaps, without superheroes to continue meddling as the 'x-factor' in human affairs.

[Paul_Cousins]

1. I think Luthor's stint as a criminal just makes this whole arc of him running for president more interesting. (It also says that perhaps the producers don't have much faith in the public's voting habits, but that's just speculation). I think it was important for Luthor to hit rock-bottom to fully round the character. It felt to me that every step of his journey was planned so that his "reformation" would actually feel believable rather than something that you were POSITVE was only a smokescreen. Now I am not so sure, which is because of the fact that he HAD been in prison or a fugitive and is now dying.

2. At first I thought the thread was a who would win between Luthor and Xanatos poll. I'll answer that anyways. Xanatos would ALWAYS win against Luthor in any situation because he always thought about EVERY possible outcome in a situation whereas Luthor's plans have often been unraveled simply by his huge ego and being taken by total surprise by outcomes he hadn't forseen.1. Just keep in mind that some of the most interesting of leaders (both good and bad) throughout history did a little time in prison.

But I love what BT and company has done with Luthor's character, they put him through the entire ringer, and I loved his scenes in JLU "The Return". I think one way or another, Luthor being forced to face his own mortality has made him a better man for it. Clancy Brown has done some great work with this character.

2. True. David Xanatos always struck me as a evil (okay reformed later on in the Gargoyles series) Bruce Wayne without the mental baggage from witnessing his parents murdered in Crime Alley as an 8 year old child. Also, I think that was Jonathan Frakes best role yet.