Is Batman the Daffy-or-Donald Duck of the comic book world?

[Style]

You know, I was thinking about classic cartoon characters. especially ones going back to the 30's or forties. And thinking about the groups of characters, like the Looney Toons or the Disney characters, it seemed as though patterns emerge.

In both Disney and Warner bros. stables, there's a large cast of characters. But each has a number one. Mickey for Disney, Bugs for Warners. Both those characters are the most recognizable characters of their company, and seem to embody the characteristics of the whole line of characters. Both are relatively straight-arrows as far as tricksters go, and don't act too selfishly, and often act on the behest of others.

In both lines, there's also the number two guy, who is usually more selfish and/or cantankerous. There's the selfish, greedy, and Jealous Daffy, and the Angry cursing Donald. Both seem to have this disposition precisely because they maintain the number two spot, and always are in the shadow of the number one guy.

Then it hit, that basic pattern extends to DC heroes as well. It has a large stable of characters, and it's ruled by the most powerful, most recognizable straight arrow hero of them all, Superman, whom everyone loves. But then, Batman is the number 2 guy, who is darker and more cantankerous and less friendly to be around.

So, does the basic structure of cartoon character line ups formed by Disney and Warners extend to DC, involving powerful and famous number ones and angry and contankerous number two's?

Ofcourse, I know that if timelines are examined, this probably breaks down. But can't you concede there's a basic simalarity involving these character relationships spawned at roughly the same time?

Something to think about...

[LeatherWings]

He's kind of a mix, between them, but I get your point. It made me think, see allt the number two guys are some of my fave characters. Where as all the number ones, I think deserve to be shot down to number two. The only really number one guy I like in those as much as the number ones is Bugs, I think him and Daffy deserve to be equals. I think all three deserve to be equals. An din someways they are. I mean they get as much episodes and comics, most the time get the better parts. But because of some fans, they are still number two. Maybe that's why I always liked the Bats/Wondy couple because the number two guy gets the number one girl. That's some cool info, gets ya thinking.

[Anthonynotes]

Well, I'd say the *current* comic-book Batman certainly acts like Daffy on his worst days---I keep expecting to see him start shouting/whining "*NO, NO, NO*, *I'M* THE GREATEST HERO OF ALL TIME! *NOT* THAT STUPID *KRYPTONIAN*!!!" ;-)

-B.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

Well, which characters on Disney would you compare Superman and Batman with? Simba and the Beast, maybe. :shrug: To me Batman would be more comarable to Quasimodo, but then again it's my opinion.

[Style]

Well, which characters on Disney would you compare Superman and Batman with? Simba and the Beast, maybe. :shrug: To me Batman would be more comarable to Quasimodo, but then again it's my opinion.
I meant the "mascot" characters. In which case, Superman is Mickey Mouse and Batman is Donald Duck.

[Fone Bone]

I would like to hear either Batman or Wolverine say "You're desthpicable!"

[Spidey2099]

I would like to hear either Batman or Wolverine say "You're desthpicable!"
Or see Batman with his cowl turned completely 180 after losing an arguement between which one Brainiac should blast--Bats or Supes? :p

[ktoriyama]

Maybe you are thinking about THE Batman. No they are not. You forget that Mickey and Bugs are the goody goody two shoes heroes. To balance them out Daffy and Donald were added. Superman is the goody goody two heroes with invincibility and strength. Batman was added to present a more human hero who actually had to worry about things like bullets and missle aimed at his head.

[DerekPowers]

You know, I was thinking about classic cartoon characters. especially ones going back to the 30's or forties. And thinking about the groups of characters, like the Looney Toons or the Disney characters, it seemed as though patterns emerge.

In both Disney and Warner bros. stables, there's a large cast of characters. But each has a number one. Mickey for Disney, Bugs for Warners. Both those characters are the most recognizable characters of their company, and seem to embody the characteristics of the whole line of characters. Both are relatively straight-arrows as far as tricksters go, and don't act too selfishly, and often act on the behest of others.

In both lines, there's also the number two guy, who is usually more selfish and/or cantankerous. There's the selfish, greedy, and Jealous Daffy, and the Angry cursing Donald. Both seem to have this disposition precisely because they maintain the number two spot, and always are in the shadow of the number one guy.

Then it hit, that basic pattern extends to DC heroes as well. It has a large stable of characters, and it's ruled by the most powerful, most recognizable straight arrow hero of them all, Superman, whom everyone loves. But then, Batman is the number 2 guy, who is darker and more cantankerous and less friendly to be around.

So, does the basic structure of cartoon character line ups formed by Disney and Warners extend to DC, involving powerful and famous number ones and angry and contankerous number two's?

Ofcourse, I know that if timelines are examined, this probably breaks down. But can't you concede there's a basic simalarity involving these character relationships spawned at roughly the same time?

Something to think about...
Great observation. I would definately agree with your logic.

It seems USUALLY, the 'staple' or 'mascot' characters are the 'straight men', you know? this isnt so much the case for Bugs or characters like, say, woody woodpecker (atleast the mean one, it is the case with the cute and cuddly one), but it definately seems to be the case with Mickey and Superman (although early mickey was a real !#$%).

But in like sitcoms and stuff the 'main' characters are usually the straight ones, who are surrounded by more colorfull, crazy, or even more interesting characters. Seinfeld is a good example.

Anyway, as far as the Bat goes, yeah, technically i'd say he is the 'donald' or 'daffy' of DC, BUT i think he exceeds Superman in terms of popularity. Id even be so bold as to say in the next few decades he'll probably over-throw superman as DC's mascot, you know? Superman seems to be hanging on by a thread, and i think the 'greatest superhero' title is only being given to him as a curtosy at this point, and batman will undoubtably earn that title in the near future. right now theres still the tradition of crowning superman, but eventually that will change.

ANYWAY, in terms of the DCAU, JL and JLU in particular, i'd say Batman is the Mickey, WW is the donald, and Superman is like, the Goofey. Superman is just so worthless in JLU, and i really think that Batman is the Mascot of the DCAU, no doubt. he started it after all. Plus, i'm sure he'd take the role of 'figure head' of the JLU, but thats just not his style, so superman just takes that job.

but great observation, i agree with it. peace.

[thearchduke]

Interesting. I think the Superman-Batman to Mickey-Donald comparison is the more relevant one because in both those cases Superman and Mickey are pretty sheltered from a brand perspective. Those are the big guns of their respective corporate overlord from a marketing view, and as such aren't really tinkered with that much.

Donald and Batman are without the burden of being the main representation of Disney and DC, respectively, and the suits seem to be more willing to put them in other projects or spin-offs (Ducktales, which brings to mind Donald though he wasn't in it that much, and the various Batman movies/projects) than the other two, whose use they seem to guard more carfully.

And I think Bugs gets no respect (reimagining? :mad: ) and that's why I love him so much.

So I think it's more of a brand management, marketing, other corporate jargon situation on the part of the suits.

[Casey Mack]

Great observation. I would definately agree with your logic.

It seems USUALLY, the 'staple' or 'mascot' characters are the 'straight men', you know? this isnt so much the case for Bugs or characters like, say, woody woodpecker (atleast the mean one, it is the case with the cute and cuddly one), but it definately seems to be the case with Mickey and Superman (although early mickey was a real !#$%).

But in like sitcoms and stuff the 'main' characters are usually the straight ones, who are surrounded by more colorfull, crazy, or even more interesting characters. Seinfeld is a good example.

Anyway, as far as the Bat goes, yeah, technically i'd say he is the 'donald' or 'daffy' of DC, BUT i think he exceeds Superman in terms of popularity. Id even be so bold as to say in the next few decades he'll probably over-throw superman as DC's mascot, you know? Superman seems to be hanging on by a thread, and i think the 'greatest superhero' title is only being given to him as a curtosy at this point, and batman will undoubtably earn that title in the near future. right now theres still the tradition of crowning superman, but eventually that will change.

ANYWAY, in terms of the DCAU, JL and JLU in particular, i'd say Batman is the Mickey, WW is the donald, and Superman is like, the Goofey. Superman is just so worthless in JLU, and i really think that Batman is the Mascot of the DCAU, no doubt. he started it after all. Plus, i'm sure he'd take the role of 'figure head' of the JLU, but thats just not his style, so superman just takes that job.

but great observation, i agree with it. peace.
I agree and disagree with most of your intelligent words:) I just can't imagine myself calling Batman the worlds greatest hero. When i see Superman as the guy that would rescue quake victims in Japan or help U.S. troops in Iraq. I never thought of Batman as Donald or Daffy, i just think of him as a great man [A very overhyped and badly written character sometimes] that i like. The reason Superman is the "figure head" of the League is, because well he does things like that in The DCUA he goes to far of countries and rescues the disaster victims and works out peace treaties with waring Nations.He is friendly to the DCUA media, and does not have to distrust anyone so all us Fanboys can think he is "cool".

If superman were a real person, people would look upon him as a keeper of the peace and a world hero. Thats where that title comes from the idea of "Superman" represents someone doing something no other could. They Call Michael Vick "Superman" cause he can do many thing that change the face of a Football game That is the true idea of Superman. You and I are to young, we look at oh "Batman is prepared for eveything and his so Bad-ass". That is the idea of this generations "coolness".

Calling Batman donald or whatever seems wrong hes only human he may be written less like a human in comics, but in the DCUA hes still human. None of them are Donald or Mickey, they are simply Batman and Superman one saves htheworld the other dovotes his life to cleaning up Gotham, their equals. While you are enitltied to you own thoughts, i just wanted to add mines....peace
________
IOLITE INHALE (http://vaporizers.net)

[Style]

^ Don't worry. I knew the concept of this thread might be hard one to wrap one's head around and that people would balk at Supes-Bats being compared to Mickey-Donald. I'm just waiting for real cartoon enthusiasts to tear me a new one for "not understanding or appreciating the subtlties of the Mickey-Donald Dynamic, and how it evolved."

I think archduke has an interesting point about "brand sheltering" when it comes to Superman. And the fact is, Mickey and Superman are facing a similar problem now: Both are so iconicly "good" that they've been rendered rather dull next to their contemporairies, and their "greatest (blank) ever" titles seem more sentimental now, not given for anything the characters have accomplished recently.

[SilverKnight]

Well, this is certainly an original topic. Kudos, Style.

I'd have to go with the Batman to Donald analogy myself, citing what thearchduke said. Mickey is to Superman as Donald is to Batman works far better than Bugs is to Superman as Daffy is to Batman (barring the color scheme, that is :D), because Bugs is a wily bastard, and generally more mischevious than Big Blue would be on any given day.

I just noticed hat even in a thread dedicated to Batman's potential similarity to Daffy/Donald, the whole scenario hinges more on Superman. Go figure.

"IT'S MINE, Y'HEAR?! MINE, MINE, MINE, ALL MINE!"

I hear ya, Daffy. I hear ya.

[Spectre]

On the other hand, Batman's careful approach to combatting his enemies, within the context of this thread, suddenly brings to mind one of my favorite Daffy-isms:

"I'm a coward, but I'm a greedy little coward."

Daffy and Batman could both be argued to prefer a hands-off approach to solving situations, although the Duck is both more foolish and ultimately less selfless than the Bat.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Anyway, as far as the Bat goes, yeah, technically i'd say he is the 'donald' or 'daffy' of DC, BUT i think he exceeds Superman in terms of popularity. Id even be so bold as to say in the next few decades he'll probably over-throw superman as DC's mascot, you know? Superman seems to be hanging on by a thread, and i think the 'greatest superhero' title is only being given to him as a curtosy at this point, and batman will undoubtably earn that title in the near future. right now theres still the tradition of crowning superman, but eventually that will change.
I'm going to echo what Casey says. Although Batman seems to be the most popular and best written (on TV and in the comics) right now, no matter how good he gets, he can't be DC's icon. Superman stands for America, for strength, courage, goodness, etc. And it seems like once you're a spokesperson, that can't really change (Disneyworld is always going to give away those hats with ears on them, the WB logo is preceeded by Bugs chewing on a carrot, there's no replacing that).

Batman works because he is dark, mysterious, and secondary. He can be flawed, and he can be gritty. Less appeal to a wider audience (especially kids), but compelling in a different way. A different way, perhaps, like a duck. It's kind of weird how Batman's enemies are more recognizable than Superman's, kind of like how Donald gets the extended duck family and there aren't a lot of mice running around.

[G. Wen]

I don't have anything to say, except
http://www.superdickery.com/other/210.html

[Fone Bone]

I see Wolverine sharing a similar spotlight in the Marvel universe. Fanboys think he's the ginchiest but NO WAY will he ever achieve the recognizability or popularity of Spider-Man.

And the Mickey/Donald analogy IS apt. For one thing I love Donald Duck comic books and the richness Carl Barks and Don Rosa gave the character. Donald IS the everyman never as successful as he wants to be but with a real resoursefulness and the most human character out of ALL of the Disney characters (Scrooge McDuck excepted).

Batman is WAAAAY more competant in his work of course but he does remain the most human character while for all of their great works Superman and Mickey Mouse remain somewhat aloof.

[Zergrinch]

While Superman may arguably be the mascot of DC comics, Batman may even be more popular, and the real hidden mascot. Why?

Superman debuted in Action Comics.
Batman debuted in Detective Comics.
DC Comics stands for "Detective Comics" Comics *. Why DC Comics and not AC Comics, hmm?
* I know it's an oxymoron, but let's not go there.

[Anthonynotes]

While Superman may arguably be the mascot of DC comics, Batman may even be more popular, and the real hidden mascot. Why?

Superman debuted in Action Comics.
Batman debuted in Detective Comics.
DC Comics stands for "Detective Comics" Comics *. Why DC Comics and not AC Comics, hmm?
* I know it's an oxymoron, but let's not go there.

Because Detective Comics is DC's oldest still-published title, first seeing print in 1937 (Batman didn't show up until issue #27). DC's first title was 1935's "New Fun Comics" (later "More Fun Comics"---the title that introduced Aquaman, Green Arrow, the Spectre, and Superboy).

DC for decades (up through the early 70's or so) was mostly called "National Periodical Publications", but since it used "DC" on its cover logo and was an easier abbreviation for fans to call it by, the name stuck...

[Mynd Hed]

I'd say that these sort of archetypes lend themselves naturally to any franchise with a large stable of characters. Even in the anime world, for every purehearted Goku, there's a dark, brooding Vegeta. In sitcoms, for every sweet self-effacing Ross, there's a sarcastic Chandler. For every baby-kissing Bush, there's a scowling Cheney. For every Little Orphan Annie, there's a Shadow. For every....