Justice League "The Enemy Below, Parts 1 & 2" Talkback (Spoilers) [Archive]

Calhoun07

12-03-2001, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by bloodone
That was Deadshot? I confused it with Deathstroke (in all honesty, they both look very similar).

I jumped when I heard Batman's voice. Loved the threat. It reminded me why I love his character so much.

I thought this episode was better than In Blackest Night, except for one thing: no Flash. He, Batman, and J'onn are the best things going for this show. They need to be in every ep.

About Aquaman's hand, I sorta have a feeling that it will get cut off in the next ep, and he replaces it with a hook.

Yeah, that was Deadshot.

I really loved this episode, I am running out of great things to say about this show! One thing for certain, this Aquaman wouldn't take no crap, and he certainly wouldn't be seen doing a booty dance or letting Cartoon Network make those demeaning short cartoons about him!

About Aquaman's hand....geez, I am already getting sick of the hook lady jokes on Boston Public! Please, no more hook people on TV shows this year!

Lodoss War Fan

12-03-2001, 10:11 PM

Great episode! :) Not only did We get auqaman, but Deadshot and Bats too :D ! Man, bats was great with the thread and I loved the comment deadshot made to WW about "I'll tell you only if you make it worth my while" :D priceless!
Can't wait for part 2 :mad:

Joker85

12-03-2001, 10:17 PM

Great eppy!! Much better than "In Blackest Night". I loved Aquaman's new look, and Deadshot was a treat. Batman was in this one!!!!!! :D :D YAY! I am so happy that he was in this one, I was starting to Worry. I am starting to like GL more and more each eppy, but WW is still a bit of a mystery. She sort of seemed to be "just there" tonight. I hope that she gets her episode soon. Didn't miss Flash, but I did miss HG. Maybe she'll be in the next one. Does anyone no if Aquaman is going to be in the show after this, or will he just be in the 2 parter?

Trent Lane

12-03-2001, 10:20 PM

For some reason, I remember hearing they were thinking of using Aquaman next season as well, but that could just be one of those rumors...

cysurf

12-03-2001, 10:33 PM

So did Superman know Aquaman or not from his meeting in STAS? IT was hard to tell. Wow Aquaman is one mean SOB, he was "considering" wiping out everyone on the surface. Jeeze!

Veil1

12-03-2001, 10:47 PM

Hey, guys

I don't know if these would be considered spoilers, but I would have liked to be suprised by plot points, and the appearance of Deadshot.
You should really note these as spoilers because some of us won't see this episode until next month. Sorry to be a pill, but this really chaps my rear end.

Veil1

Knight

12-03-2001, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by cysurf
So did Superman know Aquaman or not from his meeting in STAS? IT was hard to tell.

Its never really said but it apparent this isnt there first meeting and that the Justice League and surface world know of Atlantis and Aquaman. GL would never have cut open the ships the way he did if he knew the people couldnt survive underwater.

And also did anyone else notice that the drivers side for the Javlin 7 had changed from Blackest Knight to this episode going from the left side to the right. But then again this could be a differnt kind of Javlin.

Calhoun07

12-03-2001, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by Veil1
Hey, guys

I don't know if these would be considered spoilers, but I would have liked to be suprised by plot points, and the appearance of Deadshot.
You should really note these as spoilers because some of us won't see this episode until next month. Sorry to be a pill, but this really chaps my rear end.

Veil1

Then why did you read the thread? I usually avoid threads about TV shows and movies and such if I haven't seen them before. There are bound to be spoilers.

I saw the episode, and trust me, there's plenty left to keep you surprised and on the edge of your seat!

Veil1

12-03-2001, 11:18 PM

I thought it may have some reviews. I was interested in what people thought of the episode. I didn't want specific details about the episode. I think it is still standard procedure in most boards that possible spoilers should be noted. I think this was defintely the case.
The original post didn't have any spoilers, it was the posts after that should have been labeled. Just my opinion. Sorry to ruffle any feathers.

The Mad Hatter

12-03-2001, 11:26 PM

Now that isn't the fish-talking, booty-shaking Aquaman. :)

This was a darn good episode. Lots of great political intrique between Aquaman and, well, everybody. Bats' sudden appearance was well done, and proves beyond a doubt that he's a great contributor to the League.

By the way, I really liked the lens flare on all the cars... see? Digital animation has its advantages. Nya.

Calhoun07

12-03-2001, 11:45 PM

Ed Liu

12-03-2001, 11:50 PM

Howdy all,

I think _The Enemy Below_ ranks right up with _In Blackest Night_ for "Best first episode" of a JL story arc so far. Spoilers follow, so you've been warned...

High points: Batman's surprise appearance. GL is a hard-ass again, but this time actually sounds like a kind of reasonable voice. Aquaman is gruff and unpleasant, just like he was in the Grant Morrison JLA. "Hey! That's Deadshot!" (which got a monstrous blank-stare from my wife). Aquaman completely sucker-punching GL. "The Threat" -- hee.

Low points: Supes and WW blowing up 2 Atlantean subs -- um, what about all the people inside (and no, I don't buy it that "they all got out" and no, I don't want to think that they just killed them all). Deadshot shoots a bazooka six inches in front of himself, and then runs off down a sewer without having hurt a single person or himself. The JL and Snapper Carr calling Aquaman "Aquaman" as he's addressing the "World Assembly" -- as the monarch of Atlantis, wouldn't they have called him "King Orrin" or "King Arthur Curry of Atlantis" or something?

Random Observation: Before the end of the season, I want Batman to make a snide comment to the rest of the JL before they get on the Javelin-7: "You think you all can keep this one in one piece this time?" The repair bills on that thing must be HUGE! Or maybe all that the Flash and GL do in their spare time is fix the J-7.

Hey, would anybody else think a cameo by Amanda Waller of the Suicide Squad from the mid-90's be cool? Or am I the only one who read that, along with Green Lantern: Mosaic?

-- Ed/Ace

Failure

12-03-2001, 11:55 PM

Dang! I hate cliffhangers! How cool was it to hear Batman coming out of the shadows mid-ep? And the fact that he was the one who accomplished the most in the episode. I kinda wished we heard what he told Deadshot.

I wonder if this ep takes into account Superman and Aquaman's meeting. The STAS version could have been a younger Aquaman, so flash forward ahead a few years and you get the Aquaman of JL. Not to mention it seemed that in the STAS ep, troubles between Atlantis and the "surface dwellers" seemed to be heating up and this ep could have been seen as the popping point.

I also liked how GL's actions were perfectly in line with his military beliefs. Not much going on with Supes, WW, or MM though.

The lens flares fx from the cars were sweet. I love lens flare fx.

Failure

12-03-2001, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Veil1
I thought it may have some reviews. I was interested in what people thought of the episode. I didn't want specific details about the episode. I think it is still standard procedure in most boards that possible spoilers should be noted. I think this was defintely the case.
The original post didn't have any spoilers, it was the posts after that should have been labeled. Just my opinion. Sorry to ruffle any feathers.

You should prolly avoid the "official" threads for episodes if you dont want to read spoilers. I kinda assume that spoilers are part of these after-ep posts. It's difficult to review an ep without giving anything away. You could try starting a separate thread, maybe using a poll or specifically calling for reviews with no spoilers though.

The Guard

12-03-2001, 11:59 PM

The Javelin-7 cockpit change can be explained by...it crashed in "Blackest Night". They gor a new one. :)

STAS obviously played into this. And Aquaman is apparently known to much of the world. I'm wondering about his son. I don't know much about Aquaman, but I know what happened to his son...

It was hilarious when GL pounded on Aquaman's tank like a goldfish...

st63z

12-04-2001, 12:31 AM

How does Wonder Woman relate to Aquaman? Aren't they both arrogant royalties in their respective kingdoms?

Is WW's world all magic and mystical stuff and no technology (and cut-off from outside world)? She seems quite comfortable helping operate the Javelin-7, and knows about world events (like who Aquaman is)...

When they were first trying to question Deadshot, I could've sworn the camera focused on Diana and her magic truth-telling lasso, but then Batman stepped in before she could act...?

Also, pretty funny, it seems Atlantis has a really huge miltary force that's way more advanced technologically. They lost a few ships completely to JL and everything's cool, but the humans are making a big stink about losing one nuclear sub (I can understand that it's important and expensive to us to lose a sub, but our fear was what the Atlanteans would do with the nuclear reactor, as if they don't have something far more advanced)?

Terminatah

12-04-2001, 12:32 AM

And here I thought the Aquaman episode would go something like this:

Aquaman: "I am here! (throwing water on himself)"
Lantern: "How can you help?"
Aquaman: "I will talk to this dolphin! Stand back."

Not much help against alien invasions, is it? I'm glad to have learned more about the Aquaman character.

Now for my favorite parts:
- I loved it when the JL saved Aquaman's life, lured the hitman into the trap, stopped him from escaping, and forced him to reveal his motives. Oh wait, not JL. Batman.
- Aquaman's suckerpunch to Green Lantern even caught me off guard.
- Wonder Woman's giant shockwave that ripped up the street was pretty cool, but I don't know if it beats the fact that it didn't do anything, and she just jumped down into the sewer through an open drain anyway. Are we learning yet?

-Terminatah

Batman 80

12-04-2001, 01:02 AM

Great episode! Aquaman was portrayed very well. This version of Aquaman could never fit into this version of the JL in my opinion.Batman's threat was also great. I wish I knew what he said. These episodes seem to be getting better and better each week. This was an excellent episode. Well done Mr. Timm and company!

Calhoun07

12-04-2001, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by hot rod
Great episode! Aquaman was portrayed very well. This version of Aquaman could never fit into this version of the JL in my opinion.Batman's threat was also great. I wish I knew what he said. These episodes seem to be getting better and better each week. This was an excellent episode. Well done Mr. Timm and company!

I have to admit that this episode really turned my interest towards Aquaman as a character. I've never really considered him before. Is he this interesting in the comic books?

Houman

12-04-2001, 01:32 AM

Enemy Below part 1 was the best ever. Great, multi-level plot and character interaction and character usage!
Batman's intelligence and detective skills were surely essential to the League's objectives.
The dialogue was the best in this one too, could it be because the Flash wasn't around. Woops, I forgot to even notice Hawkgirl was missing too.

Calhoun07

12-04-2001, 01:38 AM

I missed Hawkgirl, but didn't notice Flash wasn't in this one. If they dropped a character, which I know they won't do, I would miss Flash the least. Sorry, Flash fans!

Brainiac

12-04-2001, 03:55 AM

Yeah...I'm not sure if the STAS episode is taken into account for JL....although they seemed to, just by their attitudes towards each other...GREAT EPISODE

Knight

12-04-2001, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by The Guard
The Javelin-7 cockpit change can be explained by...it crashed in "Blackest Night". They gor a new one. :)

Thats not a very good explanation it only crashed when Flash flew it in part 1 of IBK. But in part 2 Superman and J'Onn flew it to the moon of the so called planet that has been destroyed.

superfriend

12-04-2001, 08:29 AM

They did it again.

1) Gave us an awesome use of a secondary villain. Deadshot was an unexpected bonus, just like Kanjar Ro last time.

2) 2 Leaguers were missing.

3) The first part spent a lot of time "setting up" and left me kind of blah.

4) Rehashed an old story. In Blackest Night was almost a dead ringer for "No Man Escapes the Manhunters" from Justice League of America 140 and 141. The Enemy Below reeks of a Fantastic Four episode from about 5 years ago where Namor comes to the surface and his second in command attacks the land dwellers.

What I liked:
Loved seeing Deadshot, Aquaman, Orm, and Mera. Batman saving Aquaman by making an observation. Batman using the old bait and switch to set up the assassin.

What I didn't like:
Missing Leaguers. The pacing, it just seemed like we were waiting for the big one the whole episode. The lack of originality in the story.

Hopes for next episode:
I'd like to see Mera involved in the fight next issue, using her hard water powers. I'd also like to see Aquaman use his aquatic telepathy and use his fish army like he did in STAS. That the pacing picks up like it did in the second half of In Darkest Night. And of course, Orm take on the garb and name of Ocean Master.

JL4Ever

12-04-2001, 09:14 AM

I really enjoyed the character development here. Batman as the dark knight always in the shadows coming in to help only when he wants to. Superman as the natural leader and peace maker. GL as the the hard-nose military type. Martian Manhunter as a mysterious unknown. And finally Wonder Woman as the amazon warrior with a heart of gold.

When she stood up for Aquaman against GL's insults and was genuinely concerned when they discovered the person trying to kill him was one of his own people and called on Hera to help him the emotion was there. But she was never over the top like Hawkgirl who's always ready to fight. WW destroyed those ships in the beginning, noticed the attacker before he could kill Aquaman before any other JL member and tore up the street to catch the assasin, but she did these things because they were needed, not to satisfy her need to fight. I think the two women of the team can be real assets if they're used correctly. I hope we get to see more Wonder Woman standouts in part two.

It was also great to see Aquaman as a fully-formed character with a strong sense of duty and family, something that I feel will play a bigger part in the second half. :D

Lodoss War Fan

12-04-2001, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by JL4Ever
I really enjoyed the character development here. Batman as the dark knight always in the shadows coming in to help only when he wants to. Superman as the natural leader and peace maker. GL as the the hard-nose military type. Martian Manhunter as a mysterious unknown. And finally Wonder Woman as the amazon warrior with a heart of gold.

When she stood up for Aquaman against GL's insults and was genuinely concerned when they discovered the person trying to kill him was one of his own people and called on Hera to help him the emotion was there. But she was never over the top like Hawkgirl who's always ready to fight. WW destroyed those ships in the beginning, noticed the attacker before he could kill Aquaman before any other JL member and tore up the street to catch the assasin, but she did these things because they were needed, not to satisfy her need to fight. I think the two women of the team can be real assets if they're used correctly. I hope we get to see more Wonder Woman standouts in part two.

It was also great to see Aquaman as a fully-formed character with a strong sense of duty and family, something that I feel will play a bigger part in the second half. :D

Now that you mentioned it JL4Ever, I do notice the dramatic difference in characters between WW and HG.
HG from what I have seen so far comes off as a more hardcore, heart of steel type of chick and WW is a more sweet loving and caring type.
Say if these two were to battle one and another who win take the victory ? :confused:
Still can't wait for part 2!

Ed Liu

12-04-2001, 10:15 AM

Howdy folks,

Just a random thought about the ep. A few people have commented that it was "Batman, co-starring the Justice League" and griped about how useless all the other heroes were.

I think they just demonstrated why Batman didn't join the League full time. He doesn't really them to wage his war on crime. They need him a lot more than he needs them, and he knows it. So, he joins as a reserve member and gets a call when they can't hack something on their own (in which case, he's probably interested anyway), or jumps in on their cases when it suits his own ends (like he did in last night's episode).

So, given that, I say that Bats was pursuing Deadshot, knowing he was hired for a hit, but not by who. He trailed him to Metropolis (I'm assuming that's where the World Assembly is) and but gets there too late to stop him from the first attempt on Aquaman, and decides to join up with the Justice League since it turns out to be the same case anyway.

Grant Morrison said once that Bats could take out every member of the League, and that every Leaguer knew this deep down. He's in the League to serve his own purposes, not in any kind of high-minded idealism.

-- Ed/Ace

kid_flash

12-04-2001, 11:17 AM

I really like the fact that Batman was not the main character here. I didn't like that GL was the most focused-on JLer, since he just had his own ep. But I'll get over it.

WOW! That was incredible! Shaping up to be the best yet (even if the Flash wasn't in it). Seeing Deadshot in animation, something that was TOTALLY unexpected (I litterally said out loud to my dad, "Holy crap, I think that's Deadshot!"), was the highlight of my week.

Overall, the episode just ruled. My favorite part, of course, being the entire Deadshot sequence (the second shooting, J'onn's disguise, the chase, Batman's talk with Deadshot). I really like the role Ocean Master played, also.

As for the guest star, Aquaman, I liked him better here than in "A Fish Story." First, the interaction between he and Superman was wonderful. Second, I never did like the idea of Aquaman wearing the orange uniform (which is an Atlantis prison uniform) AND being a king at the same time. Just did flow. But this was Arthur, man (pardon me, I guess they're calling him Odin). Looking forward to part two.

kid_flash

12-04-2001, 11:19 AM

Oh, I forgot to add: Who the heck is Kevin Hopps? I saw that he's the writer of this, and I don't remember his name from anywhere. Whoever he is, he did an excellent job here and I hope to see more from him.

Kal-el

12-04-2001, 11:45 AM

This was an outstand episode! Not only was the story excellent, but the animation was much tighter than in previous eps. I think my least favorite part, though, was when Supes and the JL flew through the World Assembly door. That was corny.
It seemed to me that the JL had familiarity with Aquaman, especially Superman. Just in the way that he handled him and talked to him...it was stern and to the point but respectful. It also seems that Aquaman has a respect for Superman. GL was totally the opposite. Though I like GL, he deserved to be put on his keister by Aquaman. The way that Aquaman brushed off WW was funny...kinda like a "get out of my way little girl" type of thing.
I was surprised by the destruction that the JL caused when attacked by the Atlantean Subs (which are great with mustard and swiss cheese, but I digress). Yes, some of them got out, but I have o assume there were deaths due to the explosion. GL's ring was going through them like a hot knife through butter. Though the scene was cool, it seemed a bit violent for the JL.
Batman's apperance was really cool. Supes should have smacked his head at the simplicity of Batman's solution. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it Supes?
Deathshot was a great addition. Actually, when it came time to interrogate him and they panned from WW's torso to her face, I initially thought it was to bring her lasso into play. The second time I watched it, I think the pan up was Deathshot checking her out. He was flirting hard with her and I'm thinking he was "mentally undressing" her.
I, too, was a bit confused as to how Deathshot got back to the manhole so quickly. Why couldn't Supes catch him seconds after the bat-a-rang caused him to misfire? It should have been no problem. Day dreaming about Lois maybe?
WW sure caused a great mount of damage to the Metropolis sewer system in this ep. It was a cool move, especially the swan dive off the building, but to cause a minor earthquake and cave in the street? A bit excessive IMO.
Oh, and I'm thinking the easiest way to disable Superman is to set up some kind of energy-discharging or electrical weapon...does it seem like he gets that every other episode?
Overall, great ep. I'm definitely looking forward to part II.

Terminatah

12-04-2001, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by JL4Ever
I really enjoyed the character development here. Batman as the dark knight always in the shadows coming in to help only when he wants to.
Only when he's needed, not when he wants to.

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
Howdy folks,

Just a random thought about the ep. A few people have commented that it was "Batman, co-starring the Justice League" and griped about how useless all the other heroes were.
Who's complaining?

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
I think they just demonstrated why Batman didn't join the League full time. He doesn't really them to wage his war on crime. They need him a lot more than he needs them, and he knows it. So, he joins as a reserve member and gets a call when they can't hack something on their own (in which case, he's probably interested anyway), or jumps in on their cases when it suits his own ends (like he did in last night's episode).
I don't think it's a need to "suit his own ends" as much as it is the perceptiveness to see when they need him. And they did.

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
So, given that, I say that Bats was pursuing Deadshot, knowing he was hired for a hit, but not by who. He trailed him to Metropolis (I'm assuming that's where the World Assembly is) and but gets there too late to stop him from the first attempt on Aquaman, and decides to join up with the Justice League since it turns out to be the same case anyway.
I think it's quite obvious Batman arrived to help Aquaman, and his plan to catch Aquaman's attacker didn't require him to know that it was Deadshot.

-Terminatah

Calhoun07

12-04-2001, 12:05 PM

I, too, was a bit confused as to how Deathshot got back to the manhole so quickly. Why couldn't Supes catch him seconds after the bat-a-rang caused him to misfire? It should have been no problem. Day dreaming about Lois maybe?

Either that or maybe he was missing Hawkgirl something fierce! :)

Well, maybe there was a need for Flash in this episode! Flash would not have let Deathshot get back in the sewer to begin with!

Naraht

12-04-2001, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by calhoun07

Either that or maybe he was missing Hawkgirl something fierce! :)

Well, maybe there was a need for Flash in this episode! Flash would not have let Deathshot get back in the sewer to begin with!

I think it's obvious, the evil starfish has already taken control of Clark. He beat up the Flash, and is in cahoots with the evil Underwater people. Duh. =]
</NUTTY CONSPEIRACY THEORY>

Karkull

12-04-2001, 12:27 PM

I already posted my thoughts on the Enemy Below Problems & Coolness thread (oops!), so I'll just comment on some of the stuff I read here.

Okay, Superman screwed up about Aquaman needing water to recover. But keep in mind that they only met once before and he seemed to walk around on the surface world just fine without it.

Hawkgirl and the Flash were missed, but Timm's right: you can't have every League member on in every episode. Besides, we can't have Michael Rosenbaum talking to himself as the Flash and Deadshot!

True, they could have used Wonder Woman's Golden Lasso of Truth in order to get the information from Deadshot, but do they even know that it does that yet? They rest of the League probably doesn't know that it is available to them yet, and Wonder Woman was distracted because she was still in shock about Deadshot hitting on her (assuming, of course, that even she knows the lasso's power!).

One more thing: Batman's threat to Deadshot--was it even a threat? In the Rock of Ages storyline Batman bribed the Mirror Master to betray Lex Luthor. Perhaps he offered him money, to which Superman said that nobody "wanted to know" because it would compromise Batman's identity. I know, it's unlikely...but it's a thought.

Toddman

12-04-2001, 01:05 PM

I really enjoyed Rosenbaum's portrayal of Deadshot (his characters sure like the ladies, don't they?). He sounded very arrogant and snooty, which fits in with the "worthless richboy" history of the character in the comics. I thought he sounded a bit like Kevin Spacey.

Toddman

Failure

12-04-2001, 02:26 PM

My only problem with this episode, and I'm sure it's going to be a recurring problem, is that they seem to de-power all the other heroes when Batman's around, so Batman has an opportunity to do something. When it comes to investigation and applying intelligence, Batman's heads and feet above everyone else, but when it comes having to do something physical that should be in the hands of the other JLers, those superpowers do exist for a reason. Superman shouldve been able to catch Deadshot in his sleep. In fact, Deadshot shouldnt even have had the opportunity to take the 2nd shot. Superman or a batarang? C'mon folks, easy choice there.

BeastBoyWonder

12-04-2001, 05:30 PM

other than the batarang, batman's role was perfect (IMO). That episode was the best 1/2 an hour part that i've seen so far.

Terminatah

12-04-2001, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Failure
My only problem with this episode, and I'm sure it's going to be a recurring problem, is that they seem to de-power all the other heroes when Batman's around, so Batman has an opportunity to do something. When it comes to investigation and applying intelligence, Batman's heads and feet above everyone else, but when it comes having to do something physical that should be in the hands of the other JLers, those superpowers do exist for a reason. Superman shouldve been able to catch Deadshot in his sleep. In fact, Deadshot shouldnt even have had the opportunity to take the 2nd shot. Superman or a batarang? C'mon folks, easy choice there.

Yah, but Superman didn't see the guy. It took less time for Batman to throw a batarang than it would have for him to point the guy out to Superman.

-Terminatah

Ricochet

12-04-2001, 05:53 PM

Great eppy! Loved Deadshot, Batman's threat, and Batman period! :D

Blight

12-04-2001, 06:02 PM

Excellent episode! This my favorite one so far! It had a great story, great character interaction, great animation, and Batman, Batman, and more Batman! I really thought Bats was going to be left out again, and boy did I have a heart attack when he appeared! Mt favorite moment was definitely Batman's threat to Deadshot. Classic Bats all the way! Can't wait for part 2 (I hope they show Aquaman's hand getting sliced off in high detail! :D)!

See ya!
Blight

Maxie Zeus

12-04-2001, 07:32 PM

I agree with everyone that this was an excellent episode; I thought it was much better than "In Blackest Night." There's been a lot of complaining about GL's attitude in this one, but notice how much tension it brings to the story (unlike in "Superfriends" where the heroes are so saccharine you want to puke). Characterization was excellent, and the script was mercifully short on "exposition" talk.

But I also agree about some of the problems: the heroes do seem awfully depowered. It would have been better if Deadshot had been shown to be so smart and skilled that even at their best the JLers had a hard time bringing him to heel.

And was I the only one who rolled his eyes at Superman's "We apologize for intruding" remark to Aquaman. He said it in "In Blackest Night" too. What, is this line going to show up in every episode?

BeastBoyWonder

12-04-2001, 07:45 PM

maybe the writers can't think of a more creative way to portray Superman's "perfect" politeness and nobility. After all, he's "Superman", what every person should strive to be like morally.

Heehaw

12-04-2001, 08:32 PM

Well, what can I say. I thought this show was heading in the right direction, after that dreadful 3-part pilot, and now it gets worse than that travesty ever was. Some of the worst animation since the original X-Men and what about ol' Bats stepping out of the bathroom. Ahh, the mediocrity of Bruce Timm.

Calhoun07

12-04-2001, 08:45 PM

I don't mean anything by asking, but if you are so disappointed in the show, what were you expecting from it that it didn't deliver for you?

kid_flash

12-05-2001, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Heehaw
Well, what can I say. I thought this show was heading in the right direction, after that dreadful 3-part pilot, and now it gets worse than that travesty ever was. Some of the worst animation since the original X-Men and what about ol' Bats stepping out of the bathroom. Ahh, the mediocrity of Bruce Timm.

When ya gotta go, ya gotta go. Being the World's Greatest Detective doesn't give him the World's Greatest Bladder. That's apparently reserved for Superman.

As for the animation, it's awesome. I'd also like to know what you think is so dreadful about JL.

DerekPowers

12-05-2001, 12:44 AM

good ep, i loved batman, but i have a few questions and concerns...

1. has atlantis always been encapsulated in an underwater bubble? all the atlanteans can breath under water, so why do they need a bubble? or was the bubble for defense and filled w/ water?

2. what exactly are aquaman's powers? does he have any kind of super-strenght, cause he must if he survived that missle hitting him.

now my concerns...

1. the voice acting, not untill this ep was i upset enough to mention it, but its now apparent that the problems isnt going away but getting worse. ww was alittle off, i must say, more than in any of the other eps. the "Hera help him" line was lame and her acting in the tunnel w/ deadshot was bad too. AND deadshot had bad voice acting too, especially during the batman threat scene. "Okay, i'll tell" was said so badly, he was suppose to be scared, but instead sounded bored. they must work on their actors, send them to training seminars or something.

2. Isnt this story line getting alittle old? i mean i know in "a fish story" the atlantians were upset specifically w/ luthor, but the basic idea was the same, the atlanteans are upset w/ the surface dwellers because of pollution and stuff so now they want to go to war. i almost felt like ive seen this ep before, the story was so familiar and expected for the aquaman ep, hopefully part 2 will give us more.

but over all it was great, i really was excited watching it and loved the aquaman design and mera. but i hope that he gets the hook in part 2, cause thats the coolest part. peace.

Heehaw

12-05-2001, 01:14 AM

I don't mean anything by asking, but if you are so disappointed in the show, what were you expecting from it that it didn't deliver for you?

I am dissapointed primarily in the animation which ranges from lackluster in places to horrendous in others. Take for instance the shot of Aquaman ascending from the water on Metropolis beach. The background animation was gawd awful. At times JL looks no better than a 20 year old episode of Super Friends. So far, the only thing that has impressed me about this series animation or story wise was the last 10 minutes of In Blackest Night part two, which was everything that it should have been. I blame the poor animation on the overseas company doing the work. Koko. I blame the poor story on the absence of Paul Dini, Alan Burnett and Eric Radomski. You folks who are raving about the series need to get a clue. Even the worst episodes of BTAS and STAS were better than this garbage.

The Guard

12-05-2001, 01:16 AM

I'm pretty sure that Atlantis has been like that for some time. We didn't get to see it in STAS, but in the comics it looks like that.

Aquaman is stronger than most. Not quite Superman level, but probably around J'onn's level. In water, he can swim really fast and as we know from "A Fish Story", he can command sea creatures.

I actually thought the voice acting was great. Especially Aquaman. And Superman was a little less...corny. Batman was excellent as usual. I thought Orm sounded a little too much like the head Manhunter, but overall excellent.

I don't think its the same storyline. In this one, it focuses more on Aquaman's unwillingness to cooperate, and his brother's betrayal...

kid_flash

12-05-2001, 09:40 AM

Yeah, this is very different from the STAS eps. I mean, there are only a handful of Atlantis stories you can tell involving the JL. The most prominant, and the one that won't bore the viewers, is Atlantis vs. the surface dwellers.

As for the show's quality, you can't possibly be saying this is worse than "Superman's Pal."

Honestly, though, JL is my new favorite show on TV. Definitely my fave outta the Timm toons.

st63z

12-05-2001, 01:05 PM

I've asked this before -- doesn't Timm & co. still work for WB (as in the animation studio), even though JL is contracted for the CN network? At least, mentions of JL in the media seem to always refer to the work as being a WB work.

During STAS/BTAS/BB (when they were showing on The WB network) many of these writers (like Paul Dini) if I read correctly, worked fluidly where they worked on some eps with Timm & co. then moved back to other WB shows (like Tiny Toons, etc).

So why can't the same thing happen with JL?

James Harvey

12-05-2001, 01:11 PM

Yup! Justice League is made by the Warner Bros. Animation, the same studio that brought you Batman, Superman, and Batman Beyond before that. If they can find time, creators on the show can do others shows, but only if they have the time.

Justice League 2000

12-05-2001, 03:25 PM

The aquaman episode on the jla was good. but flash and hawkgirl was not in this episode. I think the
7 heros should all be in every episode. Aquaman should not be a guest star. he should be regular member in the justice league of america. don"t you agree with me? :)

Naraht

12-05-2001, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Pete
The aquaman episode on the jla was good. but flash and hawkgirl was not in this episode. I think the
7 heros should all be in every episode. Aquaman should not be a guest star. he should be regular member in the justice league of america. don"t you agree with me? :)

Not really. It's nearly impossible to create good stories, involving 7 unique characters plus a villian or 4, and keep the quality. Restrict is further to a 1/2 hour format, and giving equal air time in each episode becomes virtually impossible.

I think they're doing it right...but I do think that rather than a whole bucketload of two parters, they should petition CN for a whole hour.

Samhaine

12-05-2001, 05:44 PM

What did everyone think of Aquaman's voice? I know it's a new guy voicing it, but it did sound really close to the StAS one. I liked it alot.

The Guard

12-05-2001, 05:54 PM

I loved the job Scott Rummel did as Aquaman. He sounded like Aquaman is supposed to. Regal. And the emotion really came through.

Lee

12-07-2001, 12:21 AM

I know they want to make Batman the brains of the group, but was there no one else in the Justice League or the hospital who thought it might help to put Aquaman in water when he was injured? Even my 11 year old son was yelling 'Throw him in the water'. I guess if the JL ever has to rescue a beached whale Batman will have to show up and tell the rest of the team it would help to push it back in the ocean.

SimonMoon5

12-07-2001, 11:19 AM

Was I the only one thinking, "He's injured, not suffocating! Putting him in water won't help!"

I mean, let's say Superman fights a shark and is badly injured underwater. (Yes, he's Superman, but the animated version is really not very tough, and I bet a shark could beat him.) The heroes gather around Superman, who is bleeding from a massive neck injury. It looks bad for Superman, who is sure to die.

Then, Batman steps forward (swims forward?) and says, "Hey, put him in the air! That'll heal him!"

:confused:

Maxie Zeus

12-07-2001, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5
Was I the only one thinking, "He's injured, not suffocating! Putting him in water won't help!"

I mean, let's say Superman fights a shark and is badly injured underwater. (Yes, he's Superman, but the animated version is really not very tough, and I bet a shark could beat him.) The heroes gather around Superman, who is bleeding from a massive neck injury. It looks bad for Superman, who is sure to die.

Then, Batman steps forward (swims forward?) and says, "Hey, put him in the air! That'll heal him!"

:confused:

Well, remember the nurse's comment: "He's got a skin like a rhino!" while holding up a bent hypodermic needle, and the fact that he appears to be totally uninjured when he leaps from the tank of water. So here's my hypothesis:

Aquaman is a LOT tougher than anyone expects, so he really wasn't hurt by the explosion, only knocked cold. The deterioration of his vital signs was due solely to his dehydration--that's why Batman diagnoses his problem as being "a fish out of water." Put him back in long enough, let him regain consciousness, and he's basically good as new.

Yeah, this special pleading, but it does make sense both of Batman's solution and his lack of injuries.

Joe Tully

12-07-2001, 04:57 PM

I figured that Aquaman's got to have pretty good healing abilities, like I assume most characters with super-strength do. But, like anyone, he's going to heal best of all under ideal conditions. And while he can survive out of water, he's best adapted to salt water. Just like something like temperature would affect how you or I heal, salinity is going to affect Aquaman.

Anyways, that's my attempt to explain it.

kid_flash

12-07-2001, 06:55 PM

Aquaman needs water about every hour or he'll get really weak. I figure his hour was just about up when he walked out of the world meeting (forgot what exactly it was), so getting hit by a missle didn't help much. But you'd think someone would have the bright idea to throw him in the water. I was really hoping Batman was gonna do some invasive surgery...

BeastBoyWonder

12-07-2001, 10:06 PM

yeah, me and my lil bro aren't very familiar with Aquaman and even we were crying to put him in the water...as much as i love batman...that detail wasn't necessary.

Joe Tully

12-07-2001, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by kid_flash
Aquaman needs water about every hour or he'll get really weak. I figure his hour was just about up when he walked out of the world meeting (forgot what exactly it was), so getting hit by a missle didn't help much.

Good point. Though the time that he can spend out of water has varied a lot over the years, he was probably weakened from being out of water for a while.

Another idea is that Aquaman was able to heal from the missile attack just fine on his own by the time the hospital staff tried to operate on him, and that the problems that the hospital was noticing were 100% due to the lack of salt water.

Anyways...this one point didn't bother me very much during the show and still doesn't. I love this story and I think that it will be the best JL story yet.

AmazonPrincess

12-07-2001, 11:09 PM

I'm enjoying each episode more and more. I can hardly wait until monday to see how this one ends. :) Since I've always like Aquaman, I'm glad to see his character being the focus - hope they show his hook in part 2. :D

Stinky Cat

12-08-2001, 02:04 PM

oki finally watched the first half! yay! i caught it yesterday! :D it was pretty cool but the old aquaman looked cooler...

Tim Drake

12-08-2001, 02:04 PM

Finally just saw the episode. It had its good points and bad points.

1.The pacing was better than In Blackest Night part 1. However, it still seemed sluggish at times. But I keep forgetting the show is an hour long show. When I rewatched In Blackest Night the pacing made much more sense because I watched the two parts simaltaneously. Its kinda difficult to judge only one part of the episode since every episode is at least two parts.

2. I'm glad Batman was there. He saved Aquaman, foiled Deadshot and then forced him to spill information. However, I still wanted more. Deadshot tricked Batman with the smoke bomb far too easily in my opinion. Then again, I think the writers planned this so Superman could actually contribute my stopping the Deadshot's van. Otherwise it really would have been all Batman. I liked Batman's threat and I'm glad we didn't hear it. We're not supposed to. However I was hoping for something more dramatic. I remember in BTAS and TNBA, Batman would throw a perosn off a roof and then save the at the last minute with his grappling hook. I was hoping from a direct cut of I'll handle this to Batman throwing a tied up Deadshot off a building. Yeah I know I'm asking for too much Batman.

3. Voice acting and dialouge. Batman and Aquaman were great. Superman and Green Lantern were decent as well. But Superman needs new dialouge (We apologize for the intrusion line again) Michael Rosenbaum did a good job of Deadshot, all my roomates said he sounds like Kevin Spacey. If I'm not mistaken poor MM only got one line. Perfect. I still can't stand Wonder Woman. She's all right when she is talking powerfully, but whenever she used the word Hera she goes all monotone. Her softspoken voice doesn't have enough influction. Plus she destroyed an entire street and accomplished nothing. Oh and I think Aquaman's wife must have been taking voice lessons from Wonder Woman. She's not quite as bad though. Did anyone else get the impression that Mera's voice was similar to Queen Amidala?? Finally I like Jason Marden or whoever does Snapper Carr. But call Aquaman the King of Atlantis or something when he's addressing the World Assembly.

4. The animation was good. Really great in some shots. I'm still think Superman's design isn't as good as the STAS one. I liked the underwater battle between the Javelin 7 and the Atlantis ships. We never really did see ships, boats, etc. go head to head much in STAS or BTAS. We saw cars but I like the way they animate the flight of vehicles. I loved the effects that the car's headlights had. And I like the greater amount of detail in the backgrounds this entire show has, though it times it somewhat odd because they haven't added as much detail to the characters. Overall the animation is the best part of this always. Like the shot of Superman rising out of the water. Oooooh. Or the shot of the surfboards from underneath.

5. The music was good. Better than In Blackest Night Part 1 which seemed to be almost a looped track at times. Very regal and fitting for the episode. But I still miss the more realisitic orchestral themes of Shirley Walker. When Batman first showed up I was expecting the Batman theme but its still no where to be found. They played something in a minor key when Bats showed up that kinda sounded BTAS but not really. I really miss the Batman and Superman themes which were in all the previous shows. We even heard Superman's theme in BB. Oh I just realized that Kristopher Carter didn't write the main theme though I'm blanking on who did.

Anywho, yeah I know I'm way too critical. I give the episode a B plus. Great animation and good music. Good pacing and decent dialouge. Batman and Aquaman were great. Batman's contribution and Aquaman's sucker punch were awesome. But Wonder Woman and Mera took the episode down a notch. WW wasn't needed. We should had Hawkgirl instead. Ah well. Despite all this I still love the show I swear.

BeastBoyWonder

12-08-2001, 04:53 PM

I agree with most of that, but WW is kind of needed...we have to develop her character, since we're not as familiar with her, and she is a "rookie". And whoever is doing the scriptwriting doesn't understand Greek Mythology very much; i wish WW would stop pleading to Hera.

Livewire

12-08-2001, 07:14 PM

I agree.We hadn't seen WW since 'Secret Origins' and Hawkgirl has been in it since then.[How could Hawkgirl swim in the water with those wings anyway?]I do hope WW voice acting improves.
It really needs some help. :(

Joe Tully

12-08-2001, 07:23 PM

WW is in The Enemy Below. She didn't do much so far, though. Maybe we'll see her do more in the next ep., plus she will have her own ep. later on in the season.

Naraht

12-08-2001, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by ragingdrummerboy
I agree with most of that, but WW is kind of needed...we have to develop her character, since we're not as familiar with her, and she is a "rookie". And whoever is doing the scriptwriting doesn't understand Greek Mythology very much; i wish WW would stop pleading to Hera.

WW has always pleaded to Hera....she's the one who needs leasons in Greek Mythology

The Guard

12-08-2001, 10:05 PM

Two things.

1. IS Wonder Woman Greek?

2. When people are so upset about spoilers that "The Old Aquaman looked cooler" has to be put in a spoiler box, we got us a problem...

BeastBoyWonder

12-09-2001, 07:07 PM

to add to that, what exactly is an amazon?

The Guard

12-10-2001, 11:37 AM

http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/justiceleague/episodes/EnemyBelow/Screens/Part2/07.jpg

Episode #07 - The Enemy Below Part 2
Original Airdate - December 10th, 2001

Aquaman discovers the culprit behind the attempted assassination and fights for his life, as well as his son's.

Comments?

warmachine04

12-10-2001, 01:57 PM

The Enemy Below is becoming the best episode of JL so far. I liked Aquaman's new look except for the earrings. He is supposed to be a King not a pirate. I like the notion of having less members per episode. It seems to allow for better interaction and character development. The presence of WW in the episode was an excellent touch. The episode started well with an underwater battle between Atlantians and the JL. The story worked quite well. Batman made a splendid entrance and GL's attitude toward Aquaman's intentions was great. The part of Batman making Deadshot confess was great. Overall, the episode works well in so many levels. Lets hope that the episode doesnt take a wrong turn in its conclusion tonite.

Maxie Zeus

12-10-2001, 03:11 PM

So, is Aquaman going to lose a hand in part 2? We've seen a character design where he has a hook. And there were all those references in part 1 about him having "strong and noble hands."

Batman 80

12-10-2001, 03:14 PM

It would be cool if they show him losing him hand. The JL battle against his forces should be great to see.

Manhunter

12-10-2001, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by hot rod
It would be cool if they show him losing him hand. The JL battle against his forces should be great to see.

How much do you wanna bet they'll either cut away to a silhouette,or they'll just have Aquaman scream off-camera?

Batman 80

12-10-2001, 03:31 PM

Very tru.

Ricochet

12-10-2001, 05:17 PM

It's gonna be a sillhoute (sp!?!?!?!? :o ). I don't think they'd even be allowed to show it if it was too graphic.

Joe Tully

12-10-2001, 05:27 PM

Of course we're not going to see him actually lose his hand. We didn't see Robin's parents actually plunge to their doom, and very rarely got to see any blood at all in the other series, so I don't understand why you'd either expect to see it chopped off or complain about not being able to see him lose his hand. There's only so much you can get past the CN censors, people, and you can't expect miracles. This is a TV show, not an R-rated movie.

The Guard

12-10-2001, 05:51 PM

I think that it's possible that tonight has something to do with Aquaman's son. Hopefully not the comics event but...

The Guard

12-10-2001, 09:54 PM

Intense? Indeed.

It was nice to see the JL use nonlethal force for once.

Aquaman was incredible again. And he used the powers he has for once.

That scene with Orm, the kid...wow. So emotional.

And then Aquaman going off alone to face his brother...

Love Green Lantern's line about "I told ya so..."

I guess that hook is so huge so he can swordfight.

"I believe this is mine."

HE LET HIM FALL!!! WOOHOO!

Joe Tully

12-10-2001, 10:00 PM

nothing : Your post didn't even make sense before, but did when I saw tonight's ep. How'd you know that?

Anyways, this has been the greatest ep. so far. I kind of had a feeling that Aquaman was going to let him fall, it was just his personality, but it still felt great to see Orm take the fall.

The other highlight was obviously when Aquaman was trying to free himself and his kid. That was very suspenseful! After The Guard's post, I was kind of afraid that something might happen to the son.

This was the best story yet. I loved it.

Trent Lane

12-10-2001, 10:03 PM

What a great follow up to part one. The teaming of GL and Batman was awesome, cool to see Bats covered in green light. Aquaman was a bada**, man! I couldn't believe the stuff he did in this episode, very cool though.... :cool: :D

The Guard

12-10-2001, 10:11 PM

How did nothing know? Isn't that what happened in the comics?

Joker85

12-10-2001, 10:11 PM

Wow. Intense for sure!! THis eppy had me on the edge of my seat literally until the last battle started, then I had to move to the floor!! Aquaman is an awesome character!! I was glad to see him let Orm take that long fall!!! Once again, Batman and GL save the day :D I think they make a good team and I am starting to like GL more and more with each passing episode. I can't believe this is our last episode till Feb. I am gonna go thru some kind of a withdrawl! Oh well, I can watch these epps again and whenever I feel like!! :) Glad I recorded them... picture on the tape is great too!

Joe Tully

12-10-2001, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by The Guard
How did nothing know? Isn't that what happened in the comics?

You're probably right. I didn't know how he lost it in the comics, so I was all confused. Thanks.

nothing

12-10-2001, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Joe Tully
nothing : Your post didn't even make sense before, but did when I saw tonight's ep. How'd you know that?

I'm always leary of commenting on a spoiler thread, because I don't want to ruin the episode.

I know they storyboarded a sequence with Orm and Aquaman's son that was VERY intense. I can't remember the specific action, but I think before Orm nailed Aquaman's son to the rock there was a scene where it looked like Orm was going to knife the baby in front of Aquaman's eyes. Naturally, the censors nixed that one.

Harvey Dent

12-10-2001, 10:20 PM

I liked tonight's episode, but I was really hoping that Orin's hook would be cybernetic, so that it could switch from hand to hook. Maybe Bruce will toss him a bone next season and give him the new prosthesis(sp?).

Batman 80

12-10-2001, 10:24 PM

Hey Nothing, do you know any other spoilers about the JL? Especially anything on Mongul.

Samhaine

12-10-2001, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by hot rod
Hey Nothing, do you know any other spoilers about the JL? Especially anything on Mongul.
If you do, try to put it in another thread. I don't want to know anything until the episodes air (and I'm sure I'm not alone), and this thread is for the newest ep. Thanks!

Calhoun07

12-10-2001, 10:37 PM

So, this was also a comic book story? I don't mean to dog the episode (I LOVED IT!!!!) but learning this was another retread comic book story...well, when are we gonna see some truly NEW stories?

Lucho

12-10-2001, 10:39 PM

You know I never liked or enbraced the "Hook look",
Untill tonight!.
I will never see that hook the same way again.
From now on, it belongs on his hand; a symbol of what makes him who he is. And why Aquaman RULES!

warmachine04

12-10-2001, 10:40 PM

This was probably the best episode of JL so far :D . They were right about being intense. Aquaman cutting off his hand to save his hand was the big emotional climax of the entire two-part episode. I had high hopes that Aquaman would use his aquatic telepathy alot in this part to fight the Atlantian army but riding an orca was enough for me. The episode had some great battles.

Calhoun07

12-10-2001, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Lucho
You know I never liked or enbraced the "Hook look",
Untill tonight!.
I will never see that hook the same way again.
From now on, it belongs on his hand; a symbol of what makes him who he is. And why Aquaman RULES!

I agree with these statements. I've stated before I never got into Aquaman as a comic book character, at least his series. Then when I got back into comics and saw he had this hook....well, I just never cared for that look and it gave me even less of a reason to pick up the comic book. I guess I don't like to see long time characters changed in such dramatic ways because I feel it's more for comic book sales than for the interest of the character, but after seeing this episode, I think I could become an Aquaman fan!

The Mad Hatter

12-10-2001, 10:45 PM

Apparently, Nothing has friends in high places... :p But fer the lovapete, don't pester him!!

Anyway, the episode. I missed the bit where Aquaman's brother took the fall because of a telemarketer! Grah! But, other than that, I really enjoyed this episode. The hand-losing scene... yes, it was in silhouette, but the sheer suspense that they built through the rock slowly sliding toward the lava... damn, that was gripping. And the way the colors slowly faded to red tones. Wow! Another good use of digital animation... And yes, when the baby got nailed to the rock, I at first thought he was going to use the knife directly on him. Wow.

The glacier battle was particularly fun, especially the scene where you could see the blast coming from below, reflected in the ice before it hit. The glacier caves were well-designed too, with all the dripping water and crumbling ice.

My only complaint is that the dialogue was a little on the weak side.

Aside: anyone else surprised that Batman wasn't in the first half of the ep? I briefly wondered where he went to, but he just wouldn't have fit in the underwater scenes. The Batsub would be too big and unweildy for such advanced foes, and undersea armor would have looked darn cheesy. Besides... they managed to give Batman two surprise entrances in the same storyline! I love it!

Joe Tully

12-10-2001, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by The Mad Hatter

Aside: anyone else surprised that Batman wasn't in the first half of the ep? I briefly wondered where he went to, but he just wouldn't have fit in the underwater scenes. The Batsub would be too big and unweildy for such advanced foes, and undersea armor would have looked darn cheesy. Besides... they managed to give Batman two surprise entrances in the same storyline! I love it!

Yup, I noticed that too, and figured that they must've just left him out because he would've been worthless in that underwater fight. I guess they could've given him an excuse, but then he's already tried to avoid joining the team any more than necessary. I'd really like to see him stick with the team for a whole story next time, but I think that his appearances in this one made up for the lack of Bats in Darkest Night.

JLU Dude

12-10-2001, 10:56 PM

It was cool, like the others. And intense.

kid_flash

12-10-2001, 11:16 PM

That was awesome. I'm not gonna say it's the best yet, but I'll definitely say it's my favorite Aquaman-focused story. That whole scene with him and his kid about to die was incredibly well-done, and shows a father's devotion to his son. The hook made much more sense here (in the comics, he was left for dead and piranas bit it off). That was just awesome.

Heck, the whole episode was awesome! Even Batman's part made sense! Batman going to Atlantis just wouldn't quite work.

Whoever Kevin Hopps is, I hope we see more of him in the future!

redneckgoliath

12-11-2001, 12:22 AM

This episode reminded me of fine greek and roman drama, very well done.

Batman 80

12-11-2001, 01:39 AM

This was a great episode and definately one of my favorite episodes. Mr. Timm and gang keep up the GREAT WORK!

superfriend

12-11-2001, 08:26 AM

Just becuase peopel are asking how this compares to the comic story...

1) the baby - Many years ago, Aquaman had a family just as shown in the story we saw these past 2 episodes. Black Manta killed the son. Mera left Aquaman.

2) Orm - Aquaman's brother - his "supervillain" name is Ocean Master, although in these 2 episodes we never see anything like his costume and his name is never mentioned.

3) Aquaman's changes - about 8 years ago, Peter David started a new run of Aquaman comics and began an intense intricate plot which redefined Aquaman as the definative King of the sea. It is definitely a great read. Issues 1 - 49 plus Zero (which fits somewhere near issue 3) and there is a 4 issue mini series which leads into this.

4) the hook - In the rematch of the first story (about issue 3) Aquaman is fighting a villain named Charibdyrus (spelling? - its from Greek Mythology) who stuffs Aquaman's had into a pool of frenzied pirana fish. Aquaman comments on how tough it is to control pirana fish as they are nothing but teeth and bones. When the battle is over, only bones are left on his left forearm. He initially replaces it with a harpoon - an irony which the fans seemed to love. After the harpoon is destroyed, Aquaman goes to star labs and they fix him up with the hook which is more than a hook, it is actually a telepathically controlled metal. The hook over time becomes a grappling hook & rope, and even a drill. To get the whole hook story, I recommend the 1st year of his series.

:yakko:

Naraht

12-11-2001, 08:42 AM

Well, I enjoyed the episode....but there was one part I really disliked, Superman's voice.
I know it's been discussed, but until this ep, it hadn't bothered me.

Bird Boy

12-11-2001, 09:40 AM

well, it was really good..but I didn't really find it that inappropriate for children..then again, I've seen worse cartoons.. :)

think I may have to watch it again..

-BB

Ed Liu

12-11-2001, 10:44 AM

Howdy all,

All in all, an excellent episode, and a fine conclusion to probably the best JL story arc so far. My only gripes:

1. Aquaman is getting a new hand while Orm is about to launch an all-out war on the surface dwellers. The JL, given a choice of which one to deal with, opts for watching the surgery. HELLO??!??!

2. Why didn't GL just grab the doomsday machine or the iceberg it was in with his ring and throw it out into space?

Minor story flaws, though.

-- Ed/Ace

kid_flash

12-11-2001, 11:19 AM

THe JL stuck around for Aquaman's surgery because they had no idea where to find Orm. A little cheesy, maybe, but they obviously had Batman working on it because the second Batman announced where they are, they took off.

Sometimes, things aren't as simple as just throwing something into space. There was no way of telling what the ecological damage would be from removing that. And if there was a way, it probably would've taken too long. I'm just glad Batman got some help for once.

Naraht

12-11-2001, 11:28 AM

Hrm...am I the only one who thinks Bruce Wayne would make a kick ass GL?

Kathiboo

12-11-2001, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by naraht
Hrm...am I the only one who thinks Bruce Wayne would make a kick ass GL?

Why would you want him to give up being Batman? He's got something he's very good at already, and we have a current Green Lantern. That's like in the Superman episode "In Brightest Day..." where Kyle is offered the mantle of Green Lantern and he asks the council why they don't choose Superman instead. They reply that Superman has enough power already and doesn't need the ring's gifts. Batman has an arsenal of weapons at his disposal and is known as "the World's Greatest Detective" so why would he need to join the GL corps?

Naraht

12-11-2001, 12:35 PM

.......I didn't say he should be....only that he'd make a good one...

Karkull

12-11-2001, 01:40 PM

Wow. FOX would never allow them to do an episode like that. Bravo!

Kal-el

12-11-2001, 01:45 PM

This episode was very good. The drama, the intensity (emotional, psychological, physical) were very well done, but not over the edge. I must say, Aquaman is one tough dude. I really like his character. Letting his brother fall was very much in line with his character.
I liked the line near the end when GL told Batman that he is the one that did it (disarmed the doomsday machine) and then Bats said no, we did it. Cheesy a bit, but a unifying comment, especially for Batman.

metaphysician

12-11-2001, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Kal-el
This episode was very good. The drama, the intensity (emotional, psychological, physical) were very well done, but not over the edge. I must say, Aquaman is one tough dude. I really like his character. Letting his brother fall was very much in line with his character.
I liked the line near the end when GL told Batman that he is the one that did it (disarmed the doomsday machine) and then Bats said no, we did it. Cheesy a bit, but a unifying comment, especially for Batman.

Batman probably finds John Stewart to be one of the more pleasant JLers to be around. He is serious about his job, like Batman, and, has been stated before, he is something of a go-to guy. Besides, the worst John can offer is a very hard-edged personality, and, frankly, this is Batman we're talking about. He is not going to be ruffled.

Maxie Zeus

12-11-2001, 04:08 PM

Terrific episode. Far and away the best mass battle sequence I've ever seen in an animated cartoon, and intense personal drama surrounding Aquaman.

Yes, there were the obvious plot problems. As mentioned, why didn't GL just hurl the Doomsday Machine into deep space. Plus, the idea that a machine could melt the polar icecap in a matter of hours is absurd. But you need something gripping at the climax, and it was beautifully handled.

I was actually expecting something more intense with the hand bit. There's a rule in fiction: If someone puts a gun on the table, that gun had better be used. So I thought the hand removal would involve the knife Orm used to nail the infant to the rock. So, as the rock slid deeper into the abyss, I was looking for Aquaman to lunge for the knife and yank it out. The wailing son would begin to slide down the rock. Aquaman (off camera) would slash his hand off then, casting the knife away, would dive down and grab his son and swim away. It'll sound bloodthirsty, but I wish they had done that instead of using the medallion.

Lodoss War Fan

12-11-2001, 05:53 PM

A great follow up to part one of the enemy below! :)
It sure was a good aquaman spotlight episode. I like the way aquaman was handled in the series. My only complaint is
1) with the animation, at times the animation looks well done and in others sloppy.
2) Not enough of bats! :( Supes and GL gets too much screen time, they sure love to use supes and GL a lot :yawn:

Blackymir

12-11-2001, 07:30 PM

First post here and I want to say that JL is excellent. It is definitely a show that not only teens can get into but adults as well.

Last nights conclusion was AWESOME!! The way they handled everything was excellent. I bet however you wouldnt see an episode of any cartoon showing that much adult content around 4 o'clock in the evening.

Im not just talking the Aquaman sequence where he cut off his own hand (which wasnt that bad since they cut away) but the scene where they left Aquaman's son to die no that was just sinister and the coolest scene of the night when you would expect Aquaman to help his brother up, he just takes his Trident and says "I think this belongs to me" and watches him fall to his death. That was one of the coolest things on any American animation I've ever seen. Aquaman is definitely not the 70's talk to fish Aquaman he's more of a send you sleeping with the fishes kind of Aquaman, excellent!!

Anyway just wanted to say this is an excellent show and I have not been disappointed yet. The only disappointment now is waiting for the new shows in February!! However if they continue with the same quality as these first 7 then 26-28 episode a year is tolerable.

Maxie Zeus

12-11-2001, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Blackymir
First post here and I want to say that JL is excellent. It is definitely a show that not only teens can get into but adults as well.

Last nights conclusion was AWESOME!! The way they handled everything was excellent. I bet however you wouldnt see an episode of any cartoon showing that much adult content around 4 o'clock in the evening.

Im not just talking the Aquaman sequence where he cut off his own hand (which wasnt that bad since they cut away) but the scene where they left Aquaman's son to die no that was just sinister and the coolest scene of the night when you would expect Aquaman to help his brother up, he just takes his Trident and says "I think this belongs to me" and watches him fall to his death. That was one of the coolest things on any American animation I've ever seen. Aquaman is definitely not the 70's talk to fish Aquaman he's more of a send you sleeping with the fishes kind of Aquaman, excellent!!

Anyway just wanted to say this is an excellent show and I have not been disappointed yet. The only disappointment now is waiting for the new shows in February!! However if they continue with the same quality as these first 7 then 26-28 episode a year is tolerable.

I'm going to merge this with the main discussion of "The Enemy Below" because it fits in there.

And welcome to the boards!

Blight

12-11-2001, 07:37 PM

This was an excellent episode! It was very intense, and packed with action and drama! Plus, the animation was simply astounding! There is really nothing bad in this episode that I can think of (except for some annoying voicework from Newbern, and Batman should have been more involved! At least he saved the day with GL's help :)). This is definitely my favorite episode so far! Oh, and my favorite part was when Aquaman so coldly let his brother fall. Definitely a moment to treasure!

See ya!
Blight

James Harvey

12-12-2001, 01:31 AM

I like how they're sorta balancing out Batman. They're keeping him out of the big space-faring adventures and keeping him grounded - as he should be. It is sometimes jarring to see him fight street crime, then go off and battle a huge interstellar planet eater or something. Batman should stay on earth.

cysurf

12-12-2001, 10:08 AM

I totally agree DG. Seeing Batman in space or on another planet would just be bizarre. Even when he was in the Watchtower in the pilot I thought that was kind of strange. I like how he never went down to Atlantis, but still aided the team during the fights in TEB.

The Guard

12-12-2001, 12:26 PM

Batman in space, eh? Read those horrid Golden Age Batman comics where Batman went to alien planets...

Tracer

12-12-2001, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Joe Tully

You're probably right. I didn't know how he lost it in the comics, so I was all confused. Thanks.

Nope, It was totally different in the comics. There was some battle during "Zero Hour" and his enemy had him down and forced hid hand into a river with Pahranias sp??? :confused: Supposedly those fish are so mean that they choose not to respone to his mental commands. It was a wicked issue!!!

James Harvey

12-13-2001, 05:15 PM

Any thought of Batman in space just brings flashbacks to those horrid stories from the 50s and 60s about his space-faring adventures. And those were...well...not very good. I think Batman should keep his feet on land as much as possible - Earth land.

Kal-el

12-13-2001, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
Any thought of Batman in space just brings flashbacks to those horrid stories from the 50s and 60s about his space-faring adventures. And those were...well...not very good. I think Batman should keep his feet on land as much as possible - Earth land.
Agreed. He's not the space type, nor would I assume he'd even want to go into space, or into the ocean depths for that matter.

Livewire

12-13-2001, 05:38 PM

WOW!What an excellent conclusion to a wonderful episode!It far exceeded my expectations.I have no complaints(except for some flaws in the voiceacting department).Still,even that couldn't take away any of the greatness from this episode. :D

The Guard

12-13-2001, 07:16 PM

What's sad is that those space stories kept comics alive...

DisneyBoy

09-28-2002, 02:16 PM

Once again, I'm resurrecting a JL thread, cause the episode just aired in Canada this past Monday night!

I first saw it on vacation in the States, and I must admit, I really enjoyed in the introduction. It had a feeling of grandure, much like the sub scenes in Sub-Zero. All in all, this Aquaman is his own character and not a team player. He's overly firm and abrasive, but then again, I guess he has to be. Humanity keeps on polluting his world!

The animation bothered me a bit, mainly because of when Aquaman emerged from the sea. The background was dull, and he looked really silly around all those surfers and tanners. Then again, in the street, he practically caused some serious damage.

I like his new look, but his chest is far too massive. The men on this series keep trying to outdo one another, pec-wise :p

Since I've already heard some spoilers, I knew about Deadshot and Orm, but I was surprised by all the time that was wasted trying to catch the "hired gun". It seemed like they needed to fill space. Some other parts were corny and there were some uneeded moments of strained silence. All in all, this was a set up for Part Two, but it could have been a little better.

Drachentöter

11-09-2002, 01:27 PM

Saw this again this afternoon and I stand by my first rating.

Five F-ing Stars!

Maybe it should've been higher on my countdown.

Really great episode. Loved Rosenbaum as Deadshot.

"Maybe if you make it worth my while."

I was wondering about the Deadshot chase scene and I decide I liked that it was drawn out. It took three weeks to catch the serial snipers, this took less than a day. Also doesn't cheapen Deadshot. I'd like to see him make a comeback for season two!

Aquaman was great. Sometimes I wish his voice was gruffer but there were lines delivered perfectly. It's good that he wasn't totally goody-goody. Definitely not Superfriends Arthur.

And no Aqua-lad, thank you very much.

The JLers, especially GL and Bats, were well-used and that's excellent considering this isn't their story.

But Bats kicked ass anyway.

Drachentöter

11-09-2002, 01:34 PM

The conclusion defined this episode as a stand-out. Self-mutilation is pretty ballsy for Cartoon Network.

Aquaman was consistent. He didn't become a wuss because he joined the JL. After all, he still let his brother fall to his "death."
The hook makes him look all the more bad-ass.

The GL and Bats team-up: classic.

My one major gripe about the story arc is the lack of Atlantean citizens. Where were they? All we saw was royalty and army. I'd like to see that resolved in season two.

Keep it up, JL.

The Penguin

08-20-2005, 01:01 AM

Tonight at 2 a.m. ET Cartoon Network airs the Justice League arc, The Enemy Below. This thread is a new merge of the original talkbacks for Part 1 and Part 2 and features a new poll. Season One talkbacks now match our Season Two talkbacks, which is one per arc because they were originally aired in one hour blocks.

http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/jl/tb.jpg

Episode #06 - The Enemy Below Part 1
Original Airdate - December 3rd, 2001

Aquaman is the target of an assassin while on the surface world attempting to make peace.

Episode #07 - The Enemy Below Part 2
Original Airdate - December 10th, 2001

Aquaman discovers who was behind the attempted assassination and fights for his life, as well as his son's.

Style

08-20-2005, 03:27 AM

Dusty

08-20-2005, 03:59 AM

Actually this is one of my most favorite eps. the action and music rocks also the animation is superb! i give it 6 out of 5 stars,

D.

Batman Fan

08-20-2005, 09:17 AM

Well this is probably one of the best episodes in Season 1 and one of my favorites.

It was great seeing Aquaman again, after his S:TAS appearence, and seeing the King of Atlantis struggle with issues on keeping his kingdome safe made his experience all the more real and satisfying. Orm, is the twisted brother who wants complete war against the surface world, and while it did provide an interesting conflict for Aquaman to go up against his brother, Orm wasn't that great of a villan.

The scenes underwater with the JL attacking Atlantis's ships were all very well done, and each member got to show off some unique skills. That's what I always like about JL, you had to focus on about 5 heroes at time in every episode, so to keep it fresh, the animators camp up with new ways for them to display their powers, and that's always great to see.

Deadshot was a nice addition to part 1, Michael Rosenbaum did a good job voicing this smart-alecy villan, and the scene where Batman says something and spooks him is my favorite. While I do agree that the chase was dragged out too long and that the JL's efforts to stop him were low, I enjoyed seeing all Deadshot could do.

I liked GL's hostility and distrust towards Aquaman, it added a nice flare to the episode. Part 2 gave us a real great scene with Aquaman taking his arm to save the life of his child, at that point, it was hard for me to believe Orm was his brother. It was nice seeing Atlantis, I thought the buildings and surroundings were really good. What I'm sure must have been harder for Aquaman is the fact that all of Atlantis turned against him, as a leader, I'm sure he felt like he failed his kingdom.

The final act was good, pure action, but good. The highlight was the fight between Aquaman and Orm, and seeing Aquaman fight with his hook was really cool. Another of my favorite parts is when GL uses his ring to protect Batman while he deactivates the doomsday machine, seeing Batman covered in green is something you don't see every day.:D

*****

Azrael24

08-20-2005, 07:15 PM

this was much better than last week's. and it was really good, but the acting is still kinda wierd but i know its because its only season 1. this is an episode i actually still remember from the last time i saw. but i rewatched it and there were some things that i didnt remember, but the thing i can always remember is when he cuts his arm off :sad: i get this gut feeling

****1/2

Nestlé

08-20-2005, 07:25 PM

Well, it's not one of my fav. episodes. Probably because I'm not a huge fan of Aquaman.

AM chopping off his own hand though, to save his son is one of my my all time favorite JL moments.

Fone Bone

08-21-2005, 12:51 PM

Hand mutilation aside, I was surprised by how relaxed the pacing was on the second episode. Lots of shots of the League just hanging out with Mera instead of finding Aquaman or Orm.

But that's not as bad as all the heroes going into the sewer to stop deadshot, and then just standing there and letting him ride right by.

You know, I used to think people were giving S1 a bum rap. But looking back on it, I'm starting to see their point.:sad:I rewatched all of season one a couple of weeks ago and it fortunately gets better as it goes along. The Brave and the Bold, A Knight of Shadows, and The Savage Time are all vast improvements over the early episodes and Injustice For All seems better than it actually is given all that happens to Lex Luthor and Solomon Grundy in later episodes.

Paradise Lost, War World, and Metamorphosis still suck however.

Another thing to note about the episodes as the season moves along is that the tension isn't as forced between the teammates. Here there is really no good reason for Green Lantern to be a buttwipe to Aquaman and is just added to create "dramatic" conflict. Not to mention his 360 turn in opinion of Aquaman changed for absolutely no reason at the end. In the later seasons and JLU the tension isn't forced at all, to the point of being believable. Here, the arguments seem to pop up just so b.t. can prove that this isn't Superfriends.

Not to say this episode was ALL bad. Micheal Rosenbaum does a wicked Deadshot even if the chase scene drags and Aquaman cutting off his own hand and clutching the bloody stump is probably the most hardcore scene JL did in season one. I remember how pleased I was with Batman's surprise appearance when I first saw it. (In Blackest Night did a similar favor to Superman fans.)

Definately not one of the best Justice League episodes as the creators are still trying to find their way here. But it WAS the best episode the show had put together at this point in the series. ***.

Link

08-21-2005, 06:37 PM

Stupid Cable black out. Now I missed taping this and In Blackest Night.

Onto the episode, I have to admit that it didn't really impress me much. Too much Aquaman and Atlantis stuff. It could of at least used more of a plot. The few things I did like I guess were mainly the ending and the Deadshot chase scene. I'll give this **1/2, but since I missed its reairing and it might be better than I remembered it to be I'll settle with a ***.

BigEclipse

04-02-2006, 10:20 PM

... feel like going to the movies after watching "The Enemy Below"?

Dusty

04-02-2006, 10:51 PM

... feel like going to the movies after watching "The Enemy Below"?
what do you mean by that?

BTW, did anyone notice that on this ep Linda Park, appears?
just a minute and i'll post a picture,

D.

Dusty

04-02-2006, 11:46 PM

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8458/lp36ox.png

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9651/lp28mq.png
http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/episodes/flashsubstance/24.jpg

Wonderwall

04-03-2006, 03:16 AM

Eh..the Linda Park comparision is questionable to me but yea I see some similarities. I love the Enemy Below, its one of the better parts of season 1. True Deadshot should not have been able to outrun 5 Leaguers( J'onn should've nailed him, Im not sure why he just stood there ). And it has the worst thing they did to Superman....KO'd by a manhole cover.....BS! That part was the worst part of the Enemy Below but if thats the worst then thats saying something on how good it was. This episode has one of the most memorable scenes with Aquaman cutting off his hand...who didn't like that. Aquaman to was done justice, After this episode I wanted to see more of him, but what we got two more awesome appearences in The Terror Beyond and Ultimatum. For me, even with the padding and the horsecrap way they got rid of Supes in that scene, I still give it 5 stars.