Microsoft shooting themselves in the foot? [Archive]

Killtacular

03-14-2005, 06:18 PM

Something people are overlooking in the midst of all the great news about Xenon is the one thing that will destroy the Xenon in the process:

Microsoft is enforcing mandatory Live functionality in ALL XENON GAMES. What does this mean for you, the consumer?

1) Third parties will be scared away, especially fledgling studios that do not have experience coding netplay, or studios that have no intention of adding new levels to their game.

2) You can forget about playing single player RPGs or platform games on this system, unless they come from Microsoft themselves.

3) The era of the "multiplatform" is over. Since getting licensed to be a Xenon game requires online functionality, you won't be seeing games on all 3 systems. Given the nature of Iwata's comments, you may not see games on more than one system at all. The next generation could be completely and totally filled with system-exclusive titles.

Microsoft is really going to kill themselves here. Live is great. But forcing games to use Live is only going to result in NO games. It'd be like Nintendo forcing all the Gamecube developers to implement eReader or GBA-link technology. Companies aren't going to comply. Then you have the fact that a good percentage of Xbox gamers DON'T use Live. They either do not game online at all, or they use Kai online tunnel for system-link games. But with Xenon, any hope of system-link is likely to be met with a disappointing answer.

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if an Xbox Live subscription is made MANDATORY in order to use the system.

Man the next generation really creeps me out. The console systems are digging themselves into holes, the handheld companies are digging themselves into holes.. ugh, it's got "video game crash of 1983" written all over it.

Juu-kuchi

03-14-2005, 06:46 PM

Beat

03-14-2005, 06:55 PM

That is really stupid on Microsoft's part.

So Nintendo's said something dumb, Microsoft's said something dumb, when does Sony aim for the foot?

Tash

03-14-2005, 06:58 PM

That is really stupid on Microsoft's part.

So Nintendo's said something dumb, Microsoft's said something dumb, when does Sony aim for the foot?Next week:
Sony announces that PS3 will only have one control port to increace intrest in RPGs!

guinaevere

03-14-2005, 07:02 PM

Microsoft is really going to kill themselves here. Live is great. But forcing games to use Live is only going to result in NO games.While I'm not a big fan of companies forcing third parties to do anything, it's their perogative. My feeling is that the games coming down the pike that the devolopers have no online play planned, will throw some very lazy online aspect together.

So let's follow the equation. Man hours taken from game devolopment thrown towards online play. Main game suffers. Online Play suffers. Consumer suffers.

One, two punch.

Chad Bonin

03-14-2005, 07:27 PM

Is it sad that I initially read it as "Nintendo shooting themselves in the foot"?

While I can see a lot of games implementing it in minimal ways, yeah, that'd suck. For some reason, like Matt, I slightly expect a Live subscription to be mandatory.

At least Microsoft gave a good try and got to be the #3 American video game manufacturer...

Artimus Gigan

03-14-2005, 07:51 PM

Everybody is already harking X-Box is dead, I mean after Jade Empire, it's over...they've already put focus on XB2...
I'm hunting down the last remaining titles I want...

and to tell ya the truth I like online games, I just hate the majority of the people who play them...it's only fun when you group with people you know...so there arn't any WTF YOU SUCK NOOB OMG OMG OMG BEEF people...

However I disagree with Wilson's "it's 1983 all over again" comment, the next gen consoles arn't even finalized yet. All the stuff they say they will do is probably going to be 1/3 of it at most actualy coming true...

Jon Hanson

03-14-2005, 07:55 PM

The question is what do they meen by mandatory? That could mean any number of things, but I'm guessing that it will just be like the few games for X Box where you can be playing them and people online can see what game you're playing and send you an invite. It doesn't sound all that complicated if it's already beene done and if there's one standard program. I'll have to hear more before I can say that they've shot theymselves, but it sounds like they're aiming the gun. I have to agree with you on the state of video gaming, it's at it's biggest ever, but the decisions the companies are making are at they're stupidest.

Superperson

03-14-2005, 09:08 PM

Not counting that the Xbox Next will probably cost through the roof.

William C. Maune

03-14-2005, 09:38 PM

Some good points are definitely made here. Live sounds cool and well-implemented, I'd probably get it (and an X-Box) some day if I had more time and money to play games. However, some games are much more suited for online play than others. For instance, as Matt mentioned in the first post, why require it for most RPGs? This is just going to make developers sacrfice to accomodate online play. I really hope they don't forget about non-online multiplayer. Online is cool and all, but I'd much rather play with folks that are in the room with me.

Dr Crocodile

03-14-2005, 10:07 PM

Live functionality could just refer to being "Live-Aware" like Fable where it has no affect on gameplay but let you see your friends online and the such. Useless and a waste to program? Yes but hardly a big deal. I'd hope Microsoft wouldn't be so dumb as to force true Live functionality on games that don't need them.

Eddy

03-15-2005, 12:04 AM

They really are shooting themselves in the foot. With a rocket launcher.

Batman's Biggest Fan

03-15-2005, 11:41 AM

One question, where did you get the resource for this? Has this been made official? Just checking.

Conekiller

03-15-2005, 12:29 PM

Couldn' LIVE functionality just mean an online score counter? or a new costume or Team roster to update everyonce in a while. I seriously doubt they expect every game to come out with Halo2-ish multiplayer.

if that's the case, then...byebye Microsoft.

Mek

03-15-2005, 01:32 PM

Next week:
Sony announces that PS3 will only have one control port to increace intrest in RPGs! IMO, they shot themselves in the foot by being haughty jackasses over the 'Square' button thing on the PSP.

Granted, they ARE fixing it, but their intial attitude was more than enough to turn me away from the PSP for a long, long time.

Oh, and I could care less for Net Play, so Xbox will be the only Microsoft console I will ever own.

*hugs her Gamecube and PS2*

Jaguar

03-15-2005, 01:53 PM

Man the next generation really creeps me out. The console systems are digging themselves into holes, the handheld companies are digging themselves into holes.. ugh, it's got "video game crash of 1983" written all over it.
Precisely. All we need now is for some company to manufacture more games than they can sell and saturate everything to high hell.

Beat

03-15-2005, 01:58 PM

All we need now is a company to score the exclusive rights to a movie, make the game in six weeks, and then bury all the copies in a New Mexico landfill.

The game industry won't crash. At the very least, we have our precious PC's.

Wounded_Dragon

03-15-2005, 02:02 PM

When Nintendo shoots itself in the foot they usually do it with a small handgun and if shot at least the foot is still there. Here when Microsoft shoots itself in the foot it does so with shotgun or a handcannon and blows the whole damn thing off.
Sad part being Microsoft can afford to blow the whole thing. Even get a nice diamond studded cane to help walking afterwards.

I also concur with Live being mandatory probably going to happen. I think Microsoft's noticed the steady income subscription services can provide. And they seem to like making sure their consoles haven't been modded using Live.

I haven't seen such a stupid idea as enforced Live since Half-Life 2 required Steam authentication to play single-player...

Artimus Gigan

03-15-2005, 02:02 PM

KuwabaraTheMan

03-15-2005, 02:03 PM

All we need now is a company to score the exclusive rights to a movie, make the game in six weeks, and then bury all the copies in a New Mexico landfill.

True, I dobut we'll ever see anything that bad again.

Microsoft is certainly shooting theirselves in the foot, but I'm not seeing that from Nintendo or Sony. It'll just go to being a two horse race.

SSJPabs

03-15-2005, 02:12 PM

IMO, they shot themselves in the foot by being haughty jackasses over the 'Square' button thing on the PSP.

Granted, they ARE fixing it, but their intial attitude was more than enough to turn me away from the PSP for a long, long time.

Oh, and I could care less for Net Play, so Xbox will be the only Microsoft console I will ever own.

*hugs her Gamecube and PS2*Remember the guy who said that has since stepped down from his position. If its fixed for almost all the NA launch then I think dumping the PSP for that reason alone is kind of short sided and maybe even a bit foolish.

There are plenty of othe reasons to turn away from the PSP.

Besides even if Microsoft looses $3 billion on Xbox Next or Xenon or whatever they call it, they can afford it and keep on plugging. I do admit that their version of online beat Sony's idea hands down. For actual online play I acknowledge Live's quality (and lack of lag).

Wounded_Dragon

03-15-2005, 02:27 PM

Behonkiss

03-15-2005, 02:53 PM

This entire thread may be the biggest load of overreacting I've ever seen on this forum.

An industry crash? People, the games industry is NO LONGER NICHE. That can't happen. While I'm confident that Nintendo will wither and die (Or pull a Sega) this generation, I don't give a rat's ass. They haven't had a game that interested me since Paper Mario and Pikmin 2.

As said above, Microsoft has too much money to quit, even if they have a console flop. If Xenon flops because people refuse to buy it for lack of games, they'll look at the reasons and try again.

Sony, on the other hand, is doing great. Even if the PSP flops, they absolutely dominate the console market, and make great marketing decisions. I've become a total PS2 junkie over the past two years as opposed to the Nintendo fanboy I once was, and I don't see how they could do something so horrible with the PS3 that it causes them to stop making games.

Sheesh.

William C. Maune

03-15-2005, 04:19 PM

I don't see an industry crash happening either, but I also don't Nintendo crashing. They may not have Microsoft money, but they still have something like 5-6 billion in the bank. Plus, whatever situation their console side may be in, they're still raking it in with handhelds and Pokemon. The PSP will cut into that, but it is too early to tell to what extent that will happen.

Punisher

03-15-2005, 04:42 PM

If this happens, it could very well kill the Xbox next before birth. Only good news for someone who owns one of the other cosoles. But it's still awhile before we get anything for sure. We can keep speculating, but I doubt you will HAVE to have Live if you buy the next Xbox. Microsoft isn't that dumb, are they?

Peter Paltridge

03-15-2005, 06:16 PM

I have to agree with you on the state of video gaming, it's at it's biggest ever, but the decisions the companies are making are at they're stupidest.
Which is exactly what happened ten years ago to the day. Nintendo and Sega were huge and unbeatable, and Sony had no hope of toppling either one. Then Nintendo released the Virtual Boy, Sega released a billion peripherals that killed their Genesis, then Sega killed their Saturn by releasing it too early. Then Nintendo killed their N64 by sticking with cartridges and hand-selecting the third-parties that they deemed "worthy" to make games for the thing, resulting in like one game every two months.
Sony didn't have to do a single thing to win, and we should thank our lucky stars they were there to patch up that mess and keep gaming going. I don't see very many mistakes on their part lately either. Yes the button sticks, but only a moron would buy a 1st-gen piece of Sony hardware.

Artimus Gigan

03-15-2005, 07:41 PM

Yes the button sticks, but only a moron would buy a 1st-gen piece of Sony hardware.
Correction, the button problem is not present on the American PSPs

Beat

03-15-2005, 07:53 PM

Correction, the button problem is not present on the American PSPs
Yeah, and the moron from Japan DID step down.

Ah well, I'm not gonna worry about getting a handheld right away anyway. Be nice, but I want to see some games first.

Mek

03-15-2005, 08:08 PM

Behonkiss: Oh please. Not all of us who posted in this thread are acting like it's the end of the gaming world. =|

Behonkiss

03-15-2005, 10:26 PM

Also, my inital response to the Live requirement is the one I still hold: Stuff like platformers and RPGs (And let's face it, Matt; has the Xbox (http://server4.103092804.com/Release3/linkredirect.php?h=42239,238576,1110945092) ever really been a haven for the latter genre?) almost always have simple minigames in them; the developers could just be lazy and make simplistic online versions of them. In fact, I'm willing to bet that most games (http://server4.103092804.com/Release3/linkredirect.php?h=40309,238576,1110945092) that aren't made with online in made will be ported to Xenon with this procedure.

And on the subject of platformers, RPGs, and Live, ever hear of downloadable content? KOTOR had it, and hell, even the Sonic Adventure games did.

Noukon

03-16-2005, 04:21 AM

Then Nintendo killed their N64 by sticking with cartridges and hand-selecting the third-parties that they deemed "worthy" to make games for the thing, resulting in like one game every two months.
It's worth noting that the Nintendo 64 was actually a reasonably profitable console for Nintendo, despite the fact that many regard it as a "failure."

Mynd Hed

03-16-2005, 11:15 PM

Is this the same Matt Wilson who is constantly getting on Nintendo's case for their lack of online functionality?

I kid, of course, it's just a little bit ironic.

In any case, I don't see this as becoming a longterm problem. As folks have mentioned, this will probably only result in game developers taking a few man-hours out to make a token online minigame or scorekeeping system for otherwise offline games. After seeing these sort of games sell just as well as ever and no meaningful increase in Live subscriptions coming from this edict, Microsoft will slap themselves on the forehead and the online requirement will get loosened up and eventually probably dropped altogether.

Even if this does turn into what everyone fears-- an end to offline gaming on the next Xbox, and a corresponding end to multiplatform games-- that doesn't necessarily mean the end of the video game industry, either. The current rise in multiplatform games, while convenient in the short-term, in my opinion just goes to show a growing lack of hardware innovation in the video game industry. If all three consoles can do basically the same things, it means that none out of the three have really come up with anything new in a while.
I don't know about anyone else, but I MISS the PS1 / N64 days, when the two major consoles were going in different directions and there were compelling pros and cons differentiating them. I LIKED having a choice between the large storage space on disc games and the lack of loading times on cartridge games. Even if company politics had allowed it, you couldn't have made Final Fantasy 7 with its huge cut scenes for the N64, and a PS1 port of Ocarina of Time would've had dumbed down graphics and loading times up the bung. And heck, I LIKED it that way.
Even if the next generation does become a choice between vastly different consoles with few multiplatform games, I'll be happy that there's more innovation and choice in the market.

RAINMAN

03-17-2005, 01:55 AM

I think MS is shooting themselves in the foot by releasing their system way too early. Wheather they are doing it to get a head start or to have 2 game systems on the market, it`s a very big risk. AS much I hate to admit it, I`m whit matt on the future of gaming. All 3 seem to be ot busy talking what silly gadgets their systems is going have insted what games are gonna be on them. In fact the gaming market in japan is shranking. How long will it take before it start happing in the U.S.?

Artimus Gigan

03-17-2005, 01:58 AM

In fact the gaming market in japan is shranking. How long will it take before it start happing in the U.S.?Wrong, the game market in Japan is over-saturated...

mikestorm

03-17-2005, 08:22 AM

Is this the same Matt Wilson who is constantly getting on Nintendo's case for their lack of online functionality?
A thought just occurred to me; if what Matt says is true then many X-box gamers will become disenfranchised with having LIVE forced down their throats.

These poor disillusioned gamers may turn to the last bastion of unplugged gaming-at-their-own-pace: the Nintendo camp.

Those visionaries at Nintendo have done it again. ;)

Adam Tyner

03-17-2005, 09:35 AM

Wounded_Dragon

03-17-2005, 12:18 PM

This functionality is reportedly built into the system at a pretty low level, requiring little to no effort from developers.
Hmm...the potential for built-in spyware coming to the home console market takes a giant leap forward.

spidl

03-17-2005, 01:35 PM

As an X-box gamer and a happy live subscriber I think most of you are overreacting. Most of the Xbox live functionality Microsoft is mandating isn't going to effect developers. My guess is Microsoft is going to give them premade code the developers will have to connect to. There is a difference in forcing a game to play online and forcing a game to be able to see Live. Most newer Xbox games have this ability already. Developers are not running away from Microsoft, but just the opposite. More and more developers are signing on everyday.

As bad as Nintendo did this generation they are still sold over 10 million cubes. The business is very healthy.

Artimus Gigan

03-17-2005, 02:07 PM

Hmm...the potential for built-in spyware coming to the home console market takes a giant leap forward.
I guess I'll need Norton for my X-Box NEXT then...

guinaevere

03-17-2005, 07:06 PM

Wrong, the game market in Japan is over-saturated...Over-saturation (production stand point) is an alternate way of saying the consumer market is under-saturated. Supply outweighs demand. It's possible that's what RAINMAN meant by saying the VG market is shrinking in Japan.

From everything I've read, games have to be Live-aware, but they don't actually have to be playable online. This functionality is reportedly built into the system at a pretty low level, requiring little to no effort from developers.So basically registration of the game and your console set-up. Similar to what Valve did with Half-Life 2. Yuck.

Adam Tyner

03-17-2005, 07:35 PM

So basically registration of the game and your console set-up. Similar to what Valve did with Half-Life 2. Yuck.The impression I get is that it's really not any different than what a lot of games are doing now. The console knows if you're online, and no matter what game you're playing, you'll be able to accept requests from online friends to play something.

Noukon

03-19-2005, 02:30 AM

Half-Life 2 requires an internet connection to even play it; "Live aware" games don't require a connection, they just have a little bit extra for those with a subscription to Live. If a Live subscription is required to play any Xbox Next game, then Microsoft has made a very poor choice, but assuming that they've done so is entirely speculative. Not that I'm a Microsoft backer by any means, but I don't think they would be foolish enough to require any Xbox Next owner to subscribe to Live.