Enterprise finale is "appalling" according to... T'pol (Spoilers) [Archive]

Paul_Cousins

03-09-2005, 12:37 AM

http://www.trektoday.com/news/070305_02.shtml

Jolene Blalock, never exactly a brown-noser, apparently thinks that the Enterprise series finale is a disaster.

The nay-sayers won't be at all alarmed by this, I suppose, but as someone who's had faith in the series for all 4 seasons, I find it quite disheartening. It's certainly not as reliable a show as... well, Deep Space 9. It's had its faults. Like the beginning of season 4, which was a lackluster finale to the three-season Temporal Cold War. Will the series finale suffer the same fate or worse? I hope it isn't so...I would call the Third Season Final to Enterprise many things, but not lackluster.

That three parter was one of the episodes I hoped would be made in that it combined elements of Star Trek and Star Wars (Episode 4) into one solid action packed, multi-part episode. :cool:

Ben

03-09-2005, 12:47 AM

The nay-sayers won't be at all alarmed by this, I suppose

I care about Star Trek, but I can only be "alarmed" so many times before I just become cynical about the show.

SirLemming

03-09-2005, 01:53 AM

I would call the Third Season Final to Enterprise many things, but not lackluster.Whoa whoa whoa. I LOVED pretty much any episode from the last third of season 3. Like, everything from the mid-season cliffhanger (they took a break last year kind of at a similar time to the current break) through the end, except for that odd filler episode where they met an Enterprise crew from some alternate future. I was even fine with the "Evil Alien Nazi" ending.

...until I saw what it led to, at the beginning of season 4. There was just a lot lacking. Very hollow, and a rushed way to end the entire Temporal Cold War. Given the way that panned out, I would rather have had a nice "welcome home" ending to season 3 instead of tainting a great arc by connecting it to a not-so-great arc.

But this is off topic. :P

Fone Bone

03-09-2005, 07:49 AM

Damn. I was REALLY hoping they'd let Manny Coto and the Reeves-Stevens write the last episode. All of their hard work making this season great and it's all undone by Rick Berman and Brannon Braga HAVING to write the final episode. It's a crying shame.:(

Squall

03-09-2005, 05:58 PM

In case you don't know, here's the general plot of the series finale:

The final episode will feature Commander Riker and Counselor Troi (both actors repirse their roles for this episode) on the USS Enterprise-D (not 'E', but 'D', as in it takes place during the TNG series, not after the TNG movies). The whole episode takes place on the USS Enterprise-D's holodeck.

Oh, and Trip Tucker dies in the episode. :(

Those are the facts known so far. There are still unanswered questions -- will this simply be Riker & Troi doing historical research, or will this be played so that the entire "Enterprise" series was nothing more than a holodeck simulation? Will this final episode be a quick summary of what "Enterprise" did during the Earth/Romulan War?

Now, I suppose it's still possible at this point that the ENT/TNG crossover will still feature the USS Enterprise-E -- maybe the original spoiler contained a typo, after all. But, seeing that the difference between the two ships is great, both visually and plot-wise in TNG's TV/movie run, I doubt that the 'D' was an accident...

Paul_Cousins

03-09-2005, 06:31 PM

Squall, if that is the case, I hope Rick Berman and Brannon Braga both have medical insurance, insulting millions of people like this is very dangerious to ones health. :sweat:

Squall

03-09-2005, 07:00 PM

Squall, if that is the case, I hope Rick Berman and Brannon Braga both have medical insurance, insulting millions of people like this is very dangerious to ones health. :sweat:
I'm afraid it's true... Believe me, I wish it wasn't!

Here are some "Enterprise" websites where you can find confirmation of the final episode's plot, as well as other fans' reactions to it:

http://www.startrek.com/ (naturally)

http://www.saveenterprise.com/

http://www.trekunited.com/

http://www.trekweb.com/

Am I the only one who gets the impression that Berman & Braga are trying to force the Star Trek franchise into a quick death?

Paul_Cousins

03-09-2005, 07:08 PM

I'm afraid it's true... Believe me, I wish it wasn't!

Here are some "Enterprise" websites where you can find confirmation of the final episode's plot, as well as other fans' reactions to it:

http://www.startrek.com/ (naturally)

http://www.saveenterprise.com/

http://www.trekunited.com/

http://www.trekweb.com/

Am I the only one who gets the impression that Berman & Braga are trying to force the Star Trek franchise into a quick death?Forget the ST franchise, Berman & Braga have got a deathwish. The Season Finale sounds like one long suicide note. :sad:

If the Enterprise Season 4 Finale is that bad, Berman & Braga will probably never be allowed to work on a ST series ever again and the S4 Finale will be forgotten like the Star Wars Christmas Special.

Most people who have seen Season 3 onward of Enterprise like it and think it is a great sci-fi show, I don't think the Season 4 Finale will kill it.

SilverKnight

03-09-2005, 07:12 PM

Swordfish_II

03-09-2005, 08:31 PM

I think I just vomited in my mouth. :(

Beat

03-09-2005, 09:14 PM

But wouldn't that mean...

Enterprise never happened?

That might satisfy many a hating Trekkie.

SirLemming

03-09-2005, 09:32 PM

I'm not going to read that, but I can feel the bad vibes. Man, I hope this doesn't turn out as bad as it seems it will.

Of course, if I heard how season 3 would end, I'd have hated it, yet I loved the finale anyway.

Paul_Cousins

03-09-2005, 09:34 PM

But wouldn't that mean...

Enterprise never happened?

That might satisfy many a hating Trekkie.I think someone should remind Berman and Braga how much everyone hated the ending to the 'Dallas' soap opera. :sweat:

Squall

03-09-2005, 10:03 PM

If the Enterprise Season 4 Finale is that bad, Berman & Braga will probably never be allowed to work on a ST series ever again...
Maybe we can regard this as a blessing in disguise then? :p

Paul_Cousins

03-09-2005, 10:21 PM

Maybe we can regard this as a blessing in disguise then? :pI agree. And one letter can be used to solve the Enterprise series problem later on after the Season 4 Finale: Q :zim:

DarkAngel

03-09-2005, 10:39 PM

But wouldn't that mean...

Enterprise never happened?Not necessarily.

Like Squall had said, maybe Riker and Troi were simply conducting some "historical research". At the most, it'll just be the events seen in the episode that didn't really happen. In other words, we'd likely be seeing a kind of educated guess on the part of Riker/Troi/Ent computer as to what happened. Or, if good records exist in the 24th century of the "Enterprise" time period, then it might be an accurate re-creation, giving Riker and Troi (and us) a good look at what really happened.

Supremus

03-09-2005, 10:49 PM

Not necessarily.

Like Squall had said, maybe Riker and Troi were simply conducting some "historical research". At the most, it'll just be the events seen in the episode that didn't really happen. In other words, we'd likely be seeing a kind of educated guess on the part of Riker/Troi/Ent computer as to what happened. Or, if good records exist in the 24th century of the "Enterprise" time period, then it might be an accurate re-creation, giving Riker and Troi (and us) a good look at what really happened.Hmm, this is getting a bit silly. Somebody put a spoiler warning on the thread...

Anyway...
I am not sure they will go as far as to say Enterprise was just a hologram, but I do think they need Enterprise removed from history to avoid the many continuety errors, so if Enterprise and its crew go on a suicide mission to save the universe, or something similarly epic, and all trace of its existence is removed from time, perhaps the Riker/Troi's historical research bit could work as an homage to say it did exist, and its grand and epic sacrifice will still be remembered, even if it's not in the history books.

... Then again, maybe it was all just a hologram. :)

Paul_Cousins

03-09-2005, 11:32 PM

Hmm, this is getting a bit silly. Somebody put a spoiler warning on the thread...

Anyway...
I am not sure they will go as far as to say Enterprise was just a hologram, but I do think they need Enterprise removed from history to avoid the many continuety errors, so if Enterprise and its crew go on a suicide mission to save the universe, or something similarly epic, and all trace of its existence is removed from time, perhaps the Riker/Troi's historical research bit could work as an homage to say it did exist, and its grand and epic sacrifice will still be remembered, even if it's not in the history books.

... Then again, maybe it was all just a hologram. :)But Enterprise is a such an excellent sci-fi show by itself that it does not deserve such a horrible fate. :sweat:

Besides, it would be a slap in the face for the fans of Enterprise.

Ben

03-09-2005, 11:45 PM

Casey Mack

03-09-2005, 11:45 PM

wow so that is how the sometimes badly written "Enterprise" is going to end, with a badly written series finale. I always thought enterprise was a slow, and dull show, but the fans deserve better then this even the non fans like myself. On a side note i hope the next Star Trek series is a fast paced good written show. The last 4 years have been so so, but it will be sad when BoringPrise is off the air.
________
Motorcycle Tires (http://www.motorcycle-tech.com/tires/motorcycle-tires)

Supremus

03-09-2005, 11:49 PM

But Enterprise is a such an excellent sci-fi show by itself that it does not deserve such a horrible fate. :sweat:

Besides, it would be a slap in the face for the fans of Enterprise.I don't know, is that such a horrible fate? Surely, given all the continuety problems, the series would almost have to end with Enterprise and its actions removed from history, wouldn't it? Kirk's Enterprise has to be the first. If it turns out Archer's Enterprise did exist and was sacrificed to save and bring about the future Trek we know and love, that could be a pretty dramatic and cool ending. I'm just guessing here of course. This is just one way the Troi/Riker/Holodeck scenario could play out.

Paul_Cousins

03-10-2005, 12:13 AM

Hmm. That doesn't sound so bad actually. Past historical flashback episodes have been some of my favorites in the series; the Voyager episode where the Doctor gets reawakened in a museum hundreds of years later springs to mind. Also the "holodeck investigation" episodes on TNG were on the whole very good (I'm thinking of "A Matter of Perspective" in particular).

Wait a minute. Berman and Braga are writing it. It can't be good. Well, at least Enterprise could be erased from history. It'd be the least they could do to make up for the show that wrecked Star Trek.Correction, Voyager wrecked the Star Trek franchise, Enterprise put the Star Trek franchise back on track.

I don't know, is that such a horrible fate? Surely, given all the continuety problems, the series would almost have to end with Enterprise and its actions removed from history, wouldn't it? Kirk's Enterprise has to be the first. If it turns out Archer's Enterprise did exist and was sacrificed to save and bring about the future Trek we know and love, that could be a pretty dramatic and cool ending. I'm just guessing here of course. This is just one way the Troi/Riker/Holodeck scenario could play out.Enterprise follows the Star Trek: First Contact movie timeline with it's advanced looking prototype warp-drive space ship. Problem solved. :p

Trekkies are the only fan group I can think of that complained about the special effects in a Star Trek series being to good... :rolleyes:

SilverKnight

03-10-2005, 12:34 AM

Correction, Voyager wrecked the Star Trek franchise, Enterprise put the Star Trek franchise back on track.Sure it did, while managing losing nearly all of its core fanbase (and everyone else in the process). And given that Bermaga's writing the finale, it's sure to suck even worse than the Voyager finale.

Just...why? WHY?? It's not even the concept that necessarily bothers me, but...why?? It's the little things that are making me slam my head against the keyboard. Like this:

Riker and Troi being on the Enterprise-D. Why. Why why why? That's stupid and makes no sense. At all. There's no way they're going to make them look twenty years younger, and the only thing placing it in the TNG era will do is remind me how much worse this show is in comparison to it, because it's going to happen. Well, maybe not. Again, given that Bermaga's writing it, they'll find a way to screw what was good about TNG, too. Troi will probably be wearing her bunny suit again.

Or this:

It sounds like they're trying to press the big reset button one last time, but really, they could do it in a much better fashion than making it a holo-documentary thingy. If done right, it could come off well, but this is Bermaga we're talking about, so it's guaranteed to suck. It's extremely anti-climactic.

Oh, and the biggest slight of all:

They're killing Trip. Trip. The one fricken character that actually got any good development, and they kill him. Archer's had a friggin' death wish since mid-way through Season Two, but they kill Trip? What the hell? Goddammit, I like Trip! (On the bright side, at least they're not killing of Phlox, too. Then someone non-fictional would have to die with them.)

I mean, it's just...

Gaaaaah!

jkldlmmjjjkjkgan dfkndfs

...Ow. My skull says hi. >grabs an icepack< It's simply that Berman and Braga seem to be going about this in the worst manner possible. It's almost as if they're purposely attempting to drag down the remnants of the show that started to get better in their descent to TV Hell. It's stupid. That's all. Stupid Berman. Stupid stupid stupid Berman.

Squall

03-10-2005, 12:36 AM

Correction, Voyager wrecked the Star Trek franchise, Enterprise put the Star Trek franchise back on track.
IMO, Voyager did serious damage to the Star Trek franchise (Voyager had its good moments, but they were rare), but it was Enterprise that actually wrecked it. Enterprise not only violated Star Trek continuity in general, it violated its own continuity! Except for the 4th season, the writing on Enterprise has been terrible as well.

Well, in any case, this guy can explain it better than I can! Take "The Expanse" for example...
http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/e52.php3

Wait a minute. Berman and Braga are writing it. It can't be good. Well, at least Enterprise could be erased from history. It'd be the least they could do to make up for the show that wrecked Star Trek.
Ah, Berman & Braga -- who pride themselves on not having watched TOS, and think that continuity within a franchise limits their egos -- I mean, their artistic integrity. :shrug:

Ben

03-10-2005, 01:41 AM

http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/e52.php3

God, what a depressing review (both for its spelling and its content :p). He's completely right about the whole "we're beyond giving this show a chance" thing though.

The Clown Prince

03-10-2005, 03:54 AM

Here's the thing though, Paramount has FINAL say over the script and story don't they? Berman and Braga write said rumored story and turn it in to Paramount and then they sign off on it. Aren't they just as much to blame as Berman and Braga? I can't imagine that there is a stipulation in B&B's contracts that they Paramount execs can't interfere. "What we say goes" so to speak.

In my eyes, Paramount as well as B&B are wrecking this franchise. If it goes down as it has been talked about here, especially the worse case scenerio of all four seasons of Enterprise being some sort of holodeck program, then that would kill the sales right there of the upcoming Enterprise DVD releases. Why buy something that may not exist in Star Trek continuity when all is said and done. Just horrible, horrible planning and thinking there.

Now on to the rumored story. When the news of Riker and Troi first showed up, here is how it was originally presented... In the timeline of TNG and DS9 Captain Riker now in command of his own ship (NOT the Enterprise D or E) stumbles across the lost remains of the first Enterprise ship. The ship of course the same one we have all seen in Enterprise. As Riker, Troi and the crew sift through and investigate the wreckage and find clues as to what happened, flashbacks are shown to the events that lead up to the destruction of Enterprise.

Now that finale I could dig. But the recent rumors about the story really have me freaked out. Especially with Jolene Blaylock being quoted as saying the finale was appalling. If it was done the first way as first rumored, I can't imagine her saying that. But if it was done as we have all read it recently, then yeah, I could back her up and say, "yeah, that was pretty horrible."

The Clown Prince

Fone Bone

03-10-2005, 06:45 AM

With all the grousing I peeked. Sue me. Honestly though? It may not be that bad.

The thing is, this sounds like more of an epilogue than a finale. A sort of "find out everyone's fates" deal. The REAL final episode will probably be the week before which will probably be written by Manny Coto. The idea that it is two hours long worries me, but honestly MOST of Enterprise's episodes have been two or three parters this year so this doesn't sound too "epiccy."

Then again I read Twage's rationalization that since it is written by Berman and Braga it will suck. I can't really argue with that but the idea has the POTENTIAL to be good even if it probably won't be.

Edit: Star Trek and Angel spoilers ahead!
And why is everybody so upset about Trip dying? Yes, he's the best character on the show but a series finale SHOULD drive in the knife to the audience. Star Trek has YET to do a great death scene (Spock not-withstanding because that was retconned) and it would be unbearably cool if he sacrificed himself saving the ship. After all Wesley's (the best character on Angel's) death scene was the best thing about Angel's finale.

Then I wonder why Jolene Blalock would find it appalling if it wasn't.:shrug:

ShadowWolf

03-10-2005, 07:11 AM

I'm surprised by everybody reactions. We are talking about the same group of people who brought us that horrible Voyager finale. I really don't expect much from the finale.

I'm just happy to see Enterprise go as Star Trek needs a rest. I'll be happy for a while with Stargate Atlantis and Battlestar Galactica for my scifi needs.....of course I'd rather have more Farscape but that's just me :D

Dogbert

03-10-2005, 09:42 AM

Attention!

Before everyone here continues with this speculation about... well, you know... Please read this information. If you have already read the spoilers above, please read this one before replying with your own speculations about what this final episode means for Enterprise as a series.

1. Enterprise is not removed from history because there is no time-travel in the episode.

2. Enterprise was not just a hologram, so those of you speculating that the series is headed the way of Dallas are wrong.

3. The D in Enterprise-D was not a typo. The original spoiler poster (quills) confirmed this by saying, "yes...'D' as in how DUMB can you get!"
All of this information was posted in the original post by quills over at TrekBBS, which I won't link to because of the language they use that's not allowed here.

Paul_Cousins

03-10-2005, 11:14 AM

1. IMO, Voyager did serious damage to the Star Trek franchise (Voyager had its good moments, but they were rare), but it was Enterprise that actually wrecked it. Enterprise not only violated Star Trek continuity in general, it violated its own continuity!

2. Except for the 4th season, the writing on Enterprise has been terrible as well.Hogwash, Star Trek continuity was voilated the moment they invented Q on the The Next Generation Pilot.

You Trekkies wanted cardboard stagesets and plastic models for a prequel series. Seriously, you're crazy if you think that was going to happen.

3. Have you actually seen Season 3 of Enterprise?

Ben

03-10-2005, 02:05 PM

Star Trek has YET to do a great death scene (Spock not-withstanding because that was retconned)

What about (DS9 finale spoilers) Gul Dukat and Benjamin Sisko? Yeah, I know Sisko isn't really dead but it was meant to be as though he died and went to "heaven." C'mon, you know that scene was awesome.

I'm sure there are other examples I'm not thinking of.

Fone Bone

03-10-2005, 03:39 PM

What about (DS9 finale spoilers) Gul Dukat and Benjamin Sisko? Yeah, I know Sisko isn't really dead but it was meant to be as though he died and went to "heaven." C'mon, you know that scene was awesome.

I'm sure there are other examples I'm not thinking of.That was pretty sweet. Still, it was no Buffy death in The Gift, Chosen, Hero, or Not Fade Away.;)

Ben

03-10-2005, 04:34 PM

Oh! And Scotty's nephew's death scene from the Star Trek II director's cut. James Doohan was really good in that scene. And Gorkon's death scene at the beginning of Star Trek VI was excellent. And the alien captain's death in "Darmok."

I don't watch any show whose title character sounds like she was named after a brand of car wax. :p

SilverKnight

03-10-2005, 04:49 PM

Oh! And Scotty's nephew's death scene from the Star Trek II director's cut. James Doohan was really good in that scene. And Gorkon's death scene at the beginning of Star Trek VI was excellent. And the alien captain's death in "Darmok."Yeah, but Berman and Braga didn't write any of those admittedly awesome death scenes, so...I worry. Badly.

Ben

03-10-2005, 05:21 PM

Yeah, but Berman and Braga didn't write any of those admittedly awesome death scenes, so...I worry. Badly.

Oh, I know and agree, I was just refuting Fone Bone's statement that Star Trek has yet to have any great death scenes.

Fone Bone

03-10-2005, 07:14 PM

I don't watch any show whose title character sounds like she was named after a brand of car wax. :pI find it hard to believe that someone as low on the geek hierarchy chart as a Trekkie would EVER be a genre snob about a show like Buffy.:p

As for the good Trekkie deaths, yeah, but killing off regular characters tend to suck. See Tasha Yar. And Jadzia Dax. And arguably Data (worked for me but not for most). Only Spock went out in a blaze of glory if you don't count Sisko (and I don't because he's not really dead) and even Spock's death was retconned in the next movie (although it still counts.).

Ben

03-10-2005, 07:27 PM

I find it hard to believe that someone as low on the geek hierarchy chart as a Trekkie would EVER be a genre snob about a show like Buffy.:p

What can I say? My ability to be an elitist dick knows no bounds!

As for the good Trekkie deaths, yeah, but killing off regular characters tend to suck. See Tasha Yar. And Jadzia Dax. And arguably Data (worked for me but not for most). Only Spock went out in a blaze of glory if you don't count Sisko (and I don't because he's not really dead) and even Spock's death was retconned in the next movie (although it still counts.).

Yeah, Yar's was awful. As was Kirk's [shudder].

Fone Bone

03-10-2005, 07:39 PM

What can I say? My ability to be an elitist dick knows no bounds! Wow. I didn't think you'd admit it. Honestly! Not watching a show because of it's title. Jeez. Buffy creator Joss Whedon has admitted that the show has a silly title but says if snobby viewers can't get over that they are welcome to miss out on some outstanding television. Their invitations to the party must have gotten lost in the mail.:p

Yeah, Yar's was awful. As was Kirk's [shudder].I can't believe I forgot Kirk's. That was HORRIBLE! Braga co-wrote Generations, right? Uh, oh. Maybe the last Enterprise WILL suck.:ack:

Ben

03-10-2005, 07:44 PM

Wow. I didn't think you'd admit it. Honestly! Not watching a show because of it's title. Jeez.

Seriously, it was more because I didn't have time to get into any new TV shows back then. That was high school and I was doing something or other 24 hours a day (there's a reason my registration date at TZ is two months after starting college). Plus I've just never really been a fantasy person. I don't know, it just doesn't get me excited like sf does.

Braga co-wrote Generations, right?

IMDB sez Berman and Braga both co-wrote it (Berman has a story credit). I'd forgotten about that. Boo.

Fone Bone

03-10-2005, 07:48 PM

Seriously, it was more because I didn't have time to get into any new TV shows back then. That was high school and I was doing something or other 24 hours a day (there's a reason my registration date at TZ is two months after starting college). Plus I've just never really been a fantasy person. I don't know, it just doesn't get me excited like sf does. Well, WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO?! Jebus! Gettin' me all mad for no reason!:ack:

IMDB sez Berman and Braga both co-wrote it (Berman has a story credit). I'd forgotten about that. Boo.They also both co-wrote First Contact (and Braga co-wrote "All Good Things".) I wonder why they didn't suck.

Ben

03-10-2005, 08:37 PM

Well, WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO?! Jebus! Gettin' me all mad for no reason!:ack:

I thought it was obvious I was joking. :sweat:

They also both co-wrote First Contact (and Braga co-wrote "All Good Things".) I wonder why they didn't suck.

Moore. Moore is a very good writer. And though Generations has plot holes out the wazoo, there are some scenes that stand quite well on their own. I suspect it was his influence that made FC so good (funnily enough he left the franchise after DS9 except for two Voyager episodes...).

Fone Bone

03-10-2005, 08:41 PM

I thought it was obvious I was joking. :sweat: I have Aspergers. NOTHING is obvious.:p

Moore. Moore is a very good writer. And though Generations has plot holes out the wazoo, there are some scenes that stand quite well on their own. I suspect it was his influence that made FC so good (funnily enough he left the franchise after DS9 except for two Voyager episodes...).I thought so. But I wonder if either him or Braga ever went on the record as to who wrote what scene in the big three NextGen movies. They probably wouldn't want to do that for Braga's sake though.

DarkAngel

03-10-2005, 10:18 PM

I have Aspergers. NOTHING is obvious.:p I thought so. But I wonder if either him or Braga ever went on the record as to who wrote what scene in the big three NextGen movies. They probably wouldn't want to do that for Braga's sake though.I honestly don't think Braga's that bad away from Berman. I think the problem is he doesn't have the personality to stand up to Berman or for what he wants. Unlike someone like Ira Behr, who fought for everything he wanted to do on DS9, I think Braga was basically cowed by Berman. Ron Moore said as much some years back and I agree with that assessment. I think back to just before Ent season 3 when Braga seemed genuinely excited about a year-long arc and doing something different, making comparisons to shows like 24. Meanwhile, at the same time, Berman was saying in interviews that each episode would still be a separate story. He seemed determined to make clear nothing had greatly changed. To me, that's telling. I sensed Braga was truly interested in doing something different, but that Berman was holding things back.

I just don't think Braga's ever had the strength of will stand up for what he wants. In a different environment, like DS9's, I think he would have been a very different writer. I've always criticised B&B in the past, but during the past couple years, I've sensed its really Berman that's responsible.

Squall

03-11-2005, 12:13 AM

You Trekkies wanted cardboard stagesets and plastic models for a prequel series. Seriously, you're crazy if you think that was going to happen.
No way! I'm very pleased with the special effects on Enterprise. :D Especially how the show has handled the difficult situations (such as, we have wireless communication and laptops now, whereas on TOS they were pure science fiction) that come up with doing a prequel. I like the ship, the uniforms, and the rest of the special effects. :) I also love seeing classic alien species from TOS with modern makeup and special effects, like the Andorians, Tellarites, Gorn, and Tholians.

I even like the characters! What I have a problem with is the writing. It's very dissapointing when the show's creators seem to get everything else right, then totally fail where it counts the most -- the episode-to-episode, and story arc writing of the series. While most of Season 4 (except for "Storm Front") has been quite good, Seasons 1-3 were terrible, IMO.

Going back to the guy whose website I mentioned earlier, check out his reviews of these Enterprise episodes. What can I say -- he is so right! :p

"Acquisition"
http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/e19.php3

"Regeneration"
http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/e49.php3
(there's an excellent description of the Borg here, BTW)

"The Xindi"
http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/e53.php3

"Azadi Prime"
http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/e70.php3

Have you actually seen Season 3 of Enterprise?
Absolutely! I've seen every season of every Star Trek show ever made (and all 10 movies as well). :p The Xindi story arc had fatal writing flaws in it from the start, unfortunately, and on top of that they took what I think should have been a 7-8 episode arc* and stretched it out into an entire season. What's worse, even after an entire season, many of the most important elements of the Xindi arc and Temporal Cold War** have yet to be explained. :mad:

* ...followed by a 3 episode arc that described the connection of the Suliban/Future Guy to the Xindi/Sphere Buliders, and ending the Temporal Cold War in a cool, action-packed fashion, with good explanations...

** ...Who were the Sphere Builders? Why did they use the Xindi in the first place? What was their connection to the Temporal Cold War, and "Future Guy"? Where are the Suliban in the 23rd & 24th Centuries?

IMO, if the entire Enterprise show had been like Season 4, this show would have easily gotten 7 Seasons...

Fone Bone

03-11-2005, 11:23 AM

I honestly don't think Braga's that bad away from Berman. I think the problem is he doesn't have the personality to stand up to Berman or for what he wants. Unlike someone like Ira Behr, who fought for everything he wanted to do on DS9, I think Braga was basically cowed by Berman. Ron Moore said as much some years back and I agree with that assessment. I think back to just before Ent season 3 when Braga seemed genuinely excited about a year-long arc and doing something different, making comparisons to shows like 24. Meanwhile, at the same time, Berman was saying in interviews that each episode would still be a separate story. He seemed determined to make clear nothing had greatly changed. To me, that's telling. I sensed Braga was truly interested in doing something different, but that Berman was holding things back.

I just don't think Braga's ever had the strength of will stand up for what he wants. In a different environment, like DS9's, I think he would have been a very different writer. I've always criticised B&B in the past, but during the past couple years, I've sensed its really Berman that's responsible.This may be true, but after seeing what writers could accomplish if they stood up to Berman (Ira Steven-Behr, Ronald D. Moore, Manny Coto) I have to say I still place the blame of the suckitude of Voyager and Enterprise on Braga too. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the reason Moore left Star Trek because he had a fall-out with BRAGA over creative differences?

DarkAngel

03-11-2005, 12:00 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the reason Moore left Star Trek because he had a fall-out with BRAGA over creative differences?Yes, but keep in mind that stemmed from what I was talking about above. Moore was used to working in a very different environment and in coming over to Voyager, discovered things were pretty creatively-stifled. And I think with Moore wanting to do different things, Braga felt his toes were being stepped on. And think about it. Would Braga ever want to admit he can't stand up to Berman or that he's working in a creatively-lacking environment? Yeah, he definitely has to take some responsibility. But I think, ultimately, he was in a difficult position. Here's some of what Moore has said about the Voyager thing from an interview.

IGNFF: Were you hoping to come in and address those issues?

MOORE: Yeah! And I thought Brannon agreed with me, because we had talked about the show. We had talked about the show, and the problems with the show, and I thought we were on the same page because we had talked in detail about all the things that were wrong with Voyager, and "Wouldn't it be great if we did this?" But when I got there, Brannon didn't really want to do that, and was not comfortable doing it, and felt threatened by the fact that I was trying to do that. It just was not pretty.

IGNFF: Were those issues he was sticking to directives that were coming from a higher level?

MOORE: I think it was a mixture. I think he got conservative and safe in what he thought the show could be as a result of what Rick kept saying the show was. Michael was consultant and Michael wasn't happy… It was just a lot of acrimony, and I think Brannon was just taking it from all sides. Then I'm there, and I'm telling him, "Let's change things and let's go in a different direction. Let's do this… Let's do that…" Rick is saying, "Play it safe. No no. Play it safe, it's Star Trek, you have to be careful." And Michael's on the outside saying, "You guys are f***ing up everything!" And then Brannon was just in an untenable position, I think.

IGNFF: Do you think part of it was some jealousy regarding what you all were able to do – and get away with – on DS9?

MOORE: I think so. I think on Deep Space Nine, we were vocal about the fact that we thought our show was the best…

IGNFF: Because Ira keeping Rick off your backs meant that Voyager got the brunt of his attention…

MOORE: Right. Yeah, they didn't have that person who kept Rick at bay and would fight for what he thought the show was. That didn't exist at Voyager.

So to me, the big problem was that Berman didn't have a lot of influence with DS9, so his full attention was on Voyager. And Braga couldn't deal with that. And that carried over to Enterprise. If you're surrounded by people who are saying "don't do that, don't do this"...

Fone Bone

03-11-2005, 12:14 PM

Yes, but keep in mind that stemmed from what I was talking about above. Moore was used to working in a very different environment and in coming over to Voyager, discovered things were pretty creatively-stifled. And I think with Moore wanting to do different things, Braga felt his toes were being stepped on. And think about it. Would Braga ever want to admit he can't stand up to Berman or that he's working in a creatively-lacking environment? Yeah, he definitely has to take some responsibility. But I think, ultimately, he was in a difficult position. Here's some of what Moore has said about the Voyager thing from an interview.

IGNFF: Were you hoping to come in and address those issues?

MOORE: Yeah! And I thought Brannon agreed with me, because we had talked about the show. We had talked about the show, and the problems with the show, and I thought we were on the same page because we had talked in detail about all the things that were wrong with Voyager, and "Wouldn't it be great if we did this?" But when I got there, Brannon didn't really want to do that, and was not comfortable doing it, and felt threatened by the fact that I was trying to do that. It just was not pretty.

IGNFF: Were those issues he was sticking to directives that were coming from a higher level?

MOORE: I think it was a mixture. I think he got conservative and safe in what he thought the show could be as a result of what Rick kept saying the show was. Michael was consultant and Michael wasn't happy… It was just a lot of acrimony, and I think Brannon was just taking it from all sides. Then I'm there, and I'm telling him, "Let's change things and let's go in a different direction. Let's do this… Let's do that…" Rick is saying, "Play it safe. No no. Play it safe, it's Star Trek, you have to be careful." And Michael's on the outside saying, "You guys are f***ing up everything!" And then Brannon was just in an untenable position, I think.

IGNFF: Do you think part of it was some jealousy regarding what you all were able to do – and get away with – on DS9?

MOORE: I think so. I think on Deep Space Nine, we were vocal about the fact that we thought our show was the best…

IGNFF: Because Ira keeping Rick off your backs meant that Voyager got the brunt of his attention…

MOORE: Right. Yeah, they didn't have that person who kept Rick at bay and would fight for what he thought the show was. That didn't exist at Voyager.

So to me, the big problem was that Berman didn't have a lot of influence with DS9, so his full attention was on Voyager. And Braga couldn't deal with that. And that carried over to Enterprise. If you're surrounded by people who are saying "don't do that, don't do this"...
Yikes. Now I kinda feel bad for the guy. Rick Berman sucks. I'm mad that Micheal Piller was so disappointed with Voyager too and wasn't able to do anything.

You know who's fault this is? Gene Roddenberry for picking Berman as his successer in the first place.:shrug:

Then again, wasn't it Braga's idea to make Trek "sexy"? I was mad that it seemed the only reason he hired Jeri Ryan was to sleep with her.

James

03-11-2005, 03:24 PM

Then again, wasn't it Braga's idea to make Trek "sexy"? I was mad that it seemed the only reason he hired Jeri Ryan was to sleep with her.
I'm sure that was just a fortuitous occurance for Braga. To be fair, Ryan handled her character very well, even if the show had an occassional occurance not to.

I've never liked Braga. I found his writing to be dire, the show weak under his reign and his luck with women clearly fortuitous in it's occurance. ;)

As for Enterprise, I was never bothered with it's visuals.. well not that much. Like with it's concept it did feel a little lack lustre. The "hi tech" was fair enough - we are after all "hi tech" now, so it makes sense the ship would be the same until "low tech" looks became more fashionable and trendy (as glibbly commented on in DS9).

My bone to pick with the serious is simply how little the concept is molded to fit the enviroment. Not really creating a pre Trek universe which shows a different set of struggles before Kirk, more molding a young Trek universe on the scenerios and concepts that shouldn't really pop up for a 100 years. And the time things were very icky indeed.

I've yet to see the final season, and I may not bother (there is only so much tether I can give to the show). Sounds like it was far better (although it seems a little fan driven as Coto drives to establish a more pre Trek universe through fictional connections to it's future - not sure I think that's quite the way to give it identity, but at least it shows some honest thought to the concept).

As for the final episode. I think we'll just have to see how this plays out. Sounds like people are reading too much into the phrasing of the spoiler. I don't think they are going to do what many fear they will. This is Star Trek. They don't break the walls, they over polish them. I'm sure it won't in any way damage the series.

Fone Bone

03-11-2005, 03:31 PM

I'm sure that was just a fortuitous occurance for Braga. To be fair, Ryan handled her character very well, even if the show had an occassional occurance not to.

I've never liked Braga. I found his writing to be dire, the show weak under his reign and his luck with women clearly fortuitous in it's occurance. ;)
Here's the thing though. Year after year, Ryan's role in the series grew after she was bedded by Braga. If I was Kate Mulgrew this would agitate me too.

I wonder if he tried to hit on Jolene Blalock and that is why she really dislikes the series.

James

03-11-2005, 04:16 PM

Here's the thing though. Year after year, Ryan's role in the series grew after she was bedded by Braga. If I was Kate Mulgrew this would agitate me too.
Maybe, but equally cynically (and maybe a little less conspiratorially) her increase appearance could simply be a reflection of her fan popularlity.

I wonder if he tried to hit on Jolene Blalock and that is why she really dislikes the series.
Or maybe she's one of the few in TV land with the guts to be honest about the show she's on. :)

Ben

03-11-2005, 06:41 PM

All that aside, Jeri Ryan was the best thing ever to happen to Voyager. When she came on it gave me a reason to watch again for while, not because she was hot but because she actually had an interesting character that she played very well.

Squall

03-12-2005, 02:44 PM

What killed Enterprise was the whole "Temporal Cold War" -- no one wanted it, and most of the first three seasons (and even "Storm Front" in season 4) were devoted to it. Enterprise was supposed to be about Starfleet's early exploration of the Alpha Quadrant, the learning process of exploring alien worlds, and the culmination of events that led to the Earth/Romulan War and the formation of the Federation -- in other words, season 4 after "Storm Front".

If the entire show had been like season 4 after "Storm Front", then I know that Enterprise would have easily had 7 full seasons. What's sad is that this show had the potential to be the most popular show in Star Trek, ever, but the writers not only destroyed that opportunity, but took it a step further and made this a show that most sci-fi fans (and even most Star Trek fans) would rather pretend didn't exist at all.

And the worst part is, Enterprise will end without any satisfactory explanation, or end, to the "Temporal Cold War"...

Style

03-12-2005, 07:06 PM

Correction, Voyager wrecked the Star Trek franchise, Enterprise put the Star Trek franchise back on track.
Correction to a Correction: If the Star Trek franchise were like a car, then Voyager rammed that car into a brick wall at 90 Miles an hour. At that point, Enterprise took the franchise, now barely driveable, backed it up 50 feet, and smacked it into a wall again. And then did this repeatedly for two years. Then, when the Franchise was utterly destroyed, Enterprise got out of the car, poured gasoline on it, and lit it on fire.

The fourth season represents Enterprise trying to pee that fire out. While the situation is improving, the effect is very neglible, and I'm still resentful of the sentiment behind it.

Cyporiean

03-12-2005, 07:33 PM

When does this episode air?

DarkAngel

03-12-2005, 09:07 PM

Correction to a Correction: If the Star Trek franchise were like a car, then Voyager rammed that car into a brick wall at 90 Miles an hour. At that point, Enterprise took the franchise, now barely driveable, backed it up 50 feet, and smacked it into a wall again. And then did this repeatedly for two years. Then, when the Franchise was utterly destroyed, Enterprise got out of the car, poured gasoline on it, and lit it on fire.

The fourth season represents Enterprise trying to pee that fire out. While the situation is improving, the effect is very neglible, and I'm still resentful of the sentiment behind it.:D Thanks for the laugh, Style. Wow. I don't think I've ever seen the destruction of Star Trek described so humorously, and yet so accurately.

The Drizzle

03-12-2005, 09:13 PM

When does this episode air?
May 13 I believe.

James

03-13-2005, 04:31 AM

:D Thanks for the laugh, Style. Wow. I don't think I've ever seen the destruction of Star Trek described so humorously, and yet so accurately.
Same here. I actually choked a little on my food, which is unlike me.

SilverKnight

03-13-2005, 06:10 AM

Fone Bone

03-13-2005, 08:22 AM

You all should check out the DCAU boards more often. Style 92 does descriptions like this all the time. He is truly the funniest poster on Toon Zone.:)

Style

03-14-2005, 11:33 AM

:D ahh, thank you all for the kind words!

I don't think I'm the absolute funniest on the boards though...

SilverKnight

03-14-2005, 02:51 PM

So, getting to the nitty gritty of it, who's going to watch this train wreck of a finale? Half of me is sorely tempted to watch just to see how badly it's going to screw over...well, everything, while the rest of me is sorely tempted to beat the other half into a bloody pulp for ever wanting to succumb to such urges. Still debating myself. How 'bout you guys?

Fone Bone

03-14-2005, 04:41 PM

I am totally going to watch it. The premise doesn't sound too bad but since Berman and Braga are writing it I know it will suck. Still a recovering Trekkie and I won't be on the wagon again until the finale airs.

James

03-14-2005, 06:02 PM

Style

03-14-2005, 08:13 PM

Squall

03-14-2005, 11:08 PM

Inspite of everything, I'm gonna watch. This is pretty much the ending point for Star Trek for the forseeable future, (Unless Paramount really surprises us and has yet another Star Trek ready for this fall.) I wanna see how it ends, no matter how desperate it is.
Yeah, I'm going to watch it too. Even if it feels more like a 'lost' episode of TNG rather than the series finale of ENT...

Ben

03-15-2005, 03:25 AM

Life is too short and I wasted 2 hours on "Brazil", so unless someone can get me that 2 hours back... I'm not willing to compound the time wastage on Star Trek... something which I really should have stopped watching long ago.

Cue SJJ pissing on Fawlty Towers, Edgar Allan Poe, Fahrenheit 451 and everything else I've ever liked... ;)

Actually I heard from this guy with funky white hair that if you stand reaaaal still you can get those two hours back. Relative to everyone else on Earth that is.

James

03-15-2005, 10:44 AM

Cue SJJ pissing on Fawlty Towers, Edgar Allan Poe, Fahrenheit 451 and everything else I've ever liked... ;)

Actually I heard from this guy with funky white hair that if you stand reaaaal still you can get those two hours back. Relative to everyone else on Earth that is.
Maybe you are just the anti-SJJ. Well, I knew he was around somewhere.. all that's left is to have you ritually sacrificed with a copy of Brazil nailed to your head. ;)

Actually, I love Fawlty Towers, I think it's hard not to. Never been a fan of Poe and I've not seen Fahrenheit 451 - but I have seen Fahrenheit 911! *bounce* Are we friends again? >< :D

Well in all honesty I don't want those two hours back, otherwise I may read your positive comments on Brazil and actually hire it out to see what it's like... what a twist of fate would that be!

Seriously, I would love to compare love/hates and see if we do agree on anything specifically. :)

Stewie

03-16-2005, 07:57 PM

You don't have to try hard to get me to watch Star Trek, as I've watched all of Enterprise. You don't have to try much harder to make me like it. But Brannon and Braga (and whoever else we want to blame) seem to not want to make that extra effort. I'll watch, and I'll reminisce about what Star Trek was.

"The Xindi"
http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/e53.php3Thank you, Squall, for bringing this to my attention. I'm not quite as unforgiving as this guy in his treatment of Enterprise. But it's good for a laugh. More importantly though, he is a genius. That's because he said this:

TUCKER SMALLWOOD: I'm not going to say anything about Tucker. I'm not going to tell you about his role on the greatest science-fiction series ever made, ''Space: Above and Beyond''. I'm not going to tell you about how great of an actor he is. Instead, I'll just leave you with this single MPEG Video clip that you can download and play for yourself.I wish the clip he linked to actually worked. I can see it fine, but can't hear it. And when I hit "Stop", Windows Media Player crashes. Oh well. Not enough people say this line:
the greatest science-fiction series ever made, ''Space: Above and Beyond''Let the truth be known!

and I've not seen Fahrenheit 451Be careful, he may have meant the book.

raykremer

03-18-2005, 12:19 AM

What killed Enterprise was the whole "Temporal Cold War" -- no one wanted it, and most of the first three seasons (and even "Storm Front" in season 4) were devoted to it. There weren't really that many epsiodes dedicated to the TCW though.

Ben

03-18-2005, 12:44 AM

Seriously, I don't think our tastes are really all that different. I get the feeling I just have a higher tolerance for pretension than you do.

But might as well prove it...

I just put little relationships: things I like followed by related things I don't like. Let me know if you'd reverse any of them.

I like > I don't like
Fahrenheit 451 (the book) > Red Mars
Edgar Allan Poe > W.B. Yeats
Nathaniel Hawthorne short stories > Nathaniel Hawthorne novels
Mormons > Mormonism
Of Mice and Men > The Grapes of Wrath
Stan Freberg > Jack Benny
Peter Sellers > Benny Hill
John Cleese > Michael Palin
Captain Picard > Captain Janeway
2001: A Space Odyssey > Solaris
Princess Mononoke > Whisper of the Heart
Adventure of Phillip Marlowe > Dragnet
Star Trek > Star Wars
First Contact > Star Trek VI > Star Trek II > Star Trek IV > Star Trek III > Generations > Star Trek I > Star Trek V > Nemesis > Insurrection
Suzanne Vega > Bjork
Adaptation > Fight Club
Paul Simon > Coldplay
Space Ghost, Harvey Birdman & Venture Brothers > Aqua Teen Hunger Force & Sealab 2021
Batman > Everyone Else

zmanjz

03-18-2005, 12:47 AM

Well...

I'm hopeful. the finale's director has a solid record, and the extended length of shooting that episode implies that they deviated more from the script than usual.

William C. Maune

03-18-2005, 12:48 AM

I'm going to have to make Bjork pay you a visit if you don't put Insurrection higher! :p

Ben

03-18-2005, 12:54 AM

I'm going to have to make Bjork pay you a visit if you don't put Insurrection higher! :p

Oh man, do not even get me started on that movie. Not only was it boring, its theme was completely opposed to everything Star Trek is supposed to stand for. Picard goes for the pretty chick without thinking about the moral implications of the situation (i.e. that it's OK to kick all your children off your planet if they disagree with you).

William C. Maune

03-18-2005, 12:57 AM

It may have its flaws, but so do other Star Trek movies. I can't say I have thought too deeply about Insurrection, and thus you may have a point on the theme issue, but I still think it is way better than Nemesis. I don't think I could watch that one again.

James

03-18-2005, 06:03 AM

Be careful, he may have meant the book. Well I've not seen the film, or the book. My film watching has sadly decreased these days - as has my book reading.. :(

Twage... Let me see... that's a seriously thought out list! Well I don't think I can follow that one up.... All I can say is I like Palin, Fightclub, Sealab 2021 and Yeats, I also dislike 2001. That said, I love Sellers, Cleese, Picard and Batman so we do have certain similarities....

Just a random list, Twage... best I could do in a short time... maybe we should do a thread on this.. there is one Enterprise statement to keep it on-topic!

:)

I like > I don't like
Homicide: Life On The Street > Law & Order
W.B Yeats > Sylvia Plath
Agnostic belief > Religion
Quantum Leap > Sliders
Pixes > Sonic Youth
Peter Sellers > Benny Hill (Well I had to keep that one!)
John Cleese > Terry Jones
Captain Kirk > Captain Archer
2010 > 2001
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle > Charles Dickens
Millenium > X-Files
Babylon 5 > Star Trek
Star Trek: TOS > Star Trek: Enterprise
Moore > Braga
David Bowie> Iggy Pop
Faith No More > Red Hot Chilli Peppers
Harvey Birdman & Sealab 2021 > Space Ghost
Oracle > Robin
Take you pick > Brazil ... ;)

Squall

03-18-2005, 10:29 PM

Thank you, Squall, for bringing this to my attention. I'm not quite as unforgiving as this guy in his treatment of Enterprise. But it's good for a laugh. More importantly though, he is a genius...
:p If you liked those reviews, here's a funny review of Star Trek: Nemesis I found today. It's hilarious!
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html

Star Trek: Nemesis, like Enterprise, was a wasted opportunity. I was actually looking forward to a Star Trek movie, and even better, a TNG movie, about the Romulans! But I was totally dissapointed with the movie. The plot makes no sense, and the Romulans are (ironically) underused -- I didn't even get to see any famous Romulan Warbirds! (And no, the Valdore-style Romulan ships don't count. They looked like large ripoffs of Klingon Birds-of-Prey...)