Cadmus Conspiracy, Part One: Key DCAU Episodes

[Karkull]

For the past two days, I've compiled a list of every DCAU episode that ties directly into the current "Cadmus Project" story arc. Let me know what you think:

http://jl.toonzone.net/cadmus/cadmus1/cadmus1.htm

I'm hoping to put together several of these pages over the next few days, detailing the members of the conspiracy and the potential financial backers.

[Kino]

Pretty darn good. One correction--in the DCAU, Supergirl is an Argosian.

[Karkull]

Pretty darn good. One correction--in the DCAU, Supergirl is an Argosian.
And the inhabitants of Argos were colonists that left Krypton. If I lived on the moon I'd still be a human. I'd just have a different address.

[Kino]

Oh, Okay. Nevermind then.

[The Detective]

Great list Karkull, it's definately cool to see how the team is drawing from all corners of the DCAU to bring together this conspiracy plot. However, your page has also given me one of the funniest images in my head. Farmer Brown sitting around the table with Waller, Hamilton, Strange, and the rest.

</YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHHH!!!!>

[Simpler Simon]

Most impressive list. If the creative staff hasn't finalized production yet, I hope theyre taking notes. I think that "The Call" should also be included on the list in some form, though it may take the full conclusion of the Cadmus arc to see what effects there will be on the Bruce/Clark relationship.

[Squall]

Pretty comprehensive! So it seems that this Cadmus Project has its roots going all the way back to the first official episode of the Bruce Timm & Co. DCAU! :eek:

Random thoughts:

-I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that the Man-Bat, Copperhead, and Cheetah among others were early recipients of prototype splicing technology!

-We also have Bizarro, an early recipient of cloning technology. (Obviously, Doomsday was another failed attempt, but with Galatea it's apparent that the government scientists are improving dramatically!)

-When was the first official contact with alien(s) on Earth in the Bruce Timm & Co. DCAU? Was it when Lois Lane interviewed Superman in S:TAS "The Last Son of Krypton"? Or was first contact with someone or something else before then?

-I have no doubts that the world's governments, including the U.S., and the World Assembly have been reverse engineering Kryptonian, Apokoliptic, and Thanagarian technology for a while now. (Am I the only one that sees all the little ways -- in buildings, vehicles, architecture, etc. -- that JLU is slowly bridging the gap with the Batman Beyond era?)

-How many times has the Earth officially been invaded at this point? Let's see... Apokolips (twice!), the Imperium, the Thanagarians, and the Nanovirus from "Dark Heart" are the ones that immediately come to mind.

-What role does magic play in all this? Is there a relationship between the magic wielded by the likes of Dr. Fate, Etrigan, and Zatanna related to the magic wielded by the likes of Circe and Ares? Speaking of which, why is magic so important that it makes Earth a target? You never see anyone performing magic on any other planet in the Milky Way Galaxy...

-What of the old gods & new gods, are any of them involved? We've never gotten a good explanation for how these two groups fit into "our" reality, or how (or even if!) they relate to each other. Do they exist in alternate dimensions, with access to ours, a la Mr. Mxyzptlk? Why are the old gods seemingly trapped here on Earth? Are they really 'gods', or just really powerful beings that can be taken down? I'm sure that Earth's govenrments want to know the answer to that question.

-Of course, some of the things mentioned in Batman Beyond were of the aftermath decades later of whatever's going to happen at the end of this season of JLU.

-Where does the word "Cadmus" come from, anyway?

[The Detective]

-Where does the word "Cadmus" come from, anyway?Ironicly enough, he's a character from Greek mythology. And in that vein of irony, he slew a dragon that was sacred to Ares.

Read more about him here (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/c/cadmus.html).

</The Detective>

[Squall]

Ironicly enough, he's a character from Greek mythology. And in that vein of irony, he slew a dragon that was sacred to Ares.
Maybe Hades & Ares are working together to force this confrontation between Earth's governments and the Justice League? Maybe they're trying to start World War III?

That would be cool! :cool:

Hades would finally get the respect he deserves as the old god version of Darkseid in the modern DCAU...

[DLM]

Great stuff, but I'd add a reference to TOAFT and the fact that Bats saw the entire universe and all of existance being ripped apart by the conficts of superheroes and supervillians on a grand scale. I maintain that that sequence of events had a serious, serious effect on how he acted in "Dd Sanction". How could it not? You are a guy that has devoted yourself to justice on the streets of Gotham, the nitty grity of human affairs, and now you see the end, and begining of everything. If I were Bruce Wayne I'd be questioning it all too.

[shoujoaifan]

For the past two days, I've compiled a list of every DCAU episode that ties directly into the current "Cadmus Project" story arc. Let me know what you think:

http://jl.toonzone.net/cadmus/cadmus1/cadmus1.htm

I'm hoping to put together several of these pages over the next few days, detailing the members of the conspiracy and the potential financial backers.Great job Karkull!

Here's something that's kinda buggin' me, although far from an annoyance:

Question:

Why don't the various governments have their own superheros without cloning?

Answer:

Well, outside of some in the comics, and potentially some spies in the JL (you never know, especially if some of these guys are close enough to their comic incarnations), the superhero genre started off with pulp fiction characters taking the law into their own hands when the law couldn't handle it/or out of revenge/or both, and then the genre officially took off with the first modern superhero with a goofy spandex suit :p inspired by acrobats, Superman!

Guess I answered my own question :sweat: ANYWAY, I'm still loving how the Cadmus/Justice Lord/Gray Moral Issues plot is turning out.

[Fone Bone]

Good list Karkull but you missed a key element--Static Shock. Here are some highlights.

Shock to the System/ Aftershock: It is revealed the mayor of Dakota had something to do with the Big Bang Baby gas along with industrialist Edwin Alva. First use of the word Meta-human in the DCAU.

Junior: Alva's son uses the mutangenic gas to go on a crime spree and is turned into a statue. Alva vows to do everything in his power to turn him back.

Hard as Nails--Bruce Wayne gives funding to find a cure for the Bang Baby Syndrome.

No Man's an Island: Edwin Alva kidnaps Rubberband Man, Gear, and Talon and tries to abduct Static and Hotstreak to reanimate his son. Static helps him anyways and Edwin Alva Junior is reanimated. The island they held him on is so big there is NO WAY they did not have government funding for this project. (Possibly as a way to study Bang Baby Syndrome)

Hoop Squad: (sorry, it counts). The government sets up it's own team of superheroes out of basketball players and learns Static's secret identity. Note that the Hoop Squad uses special suits to give them their "powers" and are not meta-human in any way.

Wet and Wild: The government finds a cure for Bang Baby syndrome. Aquamaria is the first successful test subject.

Power Outage: The government takes matters into it's own hands and releases the Bang Baby cure in gas form into Dakota's air curing all of the Bang Babies. After a struggle with Ebon over the last cannister of mutagenic gas Static and Gear regain their powers. Gear decides to come up with a cure for the cure by the time the goverment releases more gas into the populace. This episode is notable for the government taking away Static and Gear's powers without their consent.

I'd also add a couple of other JLU episodes:

The Cat and the Canary: While not tied directly into Cadmus the episode is notable for the glimpses we see of anti-superpowered sentiment. This could tie into Luthor being elected President.

The Ties That Bind: Another political struggle on Apokalips the League refuses to get involved in. The League deciding the politcal climate on other world's has to be a sore spot for Cadmus.

[Karkull]

Thanks, Fone Bone; I'm no expert on Static Shock. However, it should be noted that Static Shock kind of intersects with the mainstream DCAU when it wants to. I'll keep your additions in mind, but unless Edwin Alva shows up at that roundtable I don't think they're connected.

[Fone Bone]

Thanks, Fone Bone; I'm no expert on Static Shock. However, it should be noted that Static Shock kind of intersects with the mainstream DCAU when it wants to. I'll keep your additions in mind, but unless Edwin Alva shows up at that roundtable I don't think they're connected.Considering Static has shown up on JLU and Dwayne McDuffie who co-created him is a head writer I would NOT be surprised to hear a line about Alva's involvemnet down the line. And SS intersects with the DCAU ALWAYS. They have had references to DC characters and situations outside of crossover episodes. (Romeo in the Mix, Army of Darkness, et al).

I also wouldn't be surprised to hear a line about the Hoop Squad coming from the pen of Dwayne McDuffie. Despite how terrible that episode was it might be to tempting to horrify continuity buffs by placing that episode directly into the DCAU.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Must bookmark that page and examine in more detail later...

However, the link to a Cadmus myth isn't working. Here's the entry from the Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/c/cadmus.html) for those who don't know it. The highlights are:

1. Cadmus slew a giant serpent (sometimes identified as a dragon) sacred to Ares, on a quest to found a city of his own.

2. Faced with a big, city-sized open field with nobody to help him build a city, Athena came to him and told him to sow the serpent's teeth into the ground.

3. The teeth grew into warriors, who looked menacing and wild. Athena told Cadmus to throw a stone into the midst of the warriors, who started fighting each other as a result. (This isn't in the Encyclopedia Mythica legend, but it's shows up in lots of other versions of the story.)

4. When the dust cleared, only 5 soldiers were left. The 6 of them together went on to found the city of Thebes.

I wonder if the myth is going to inform the direction of the conspiracy.

-- Ed/Ace

[Harley_Quinn]

Very impressive list Karkull

[The Detective]

Oh and btw, I wonder if the Goverment knows the Green Lantern Corp was willing to blow up half the earth just to get AMAZO and that in fact, Lex Luthor is the one that was able to prevent that from coming to pass. I'm sure that wouldn't sit too well with anyone in Cadmus.....(not that is should)





However, the link to a Cadmus myth isn't working. Here's the entry from the Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/c/cadmus.html) for those who don't know it. The highlights are:
That's the same page I linked to, don't know why it wasn't working for you. It's fine now though.

</The Detective>

[Fone Bone]

I don't know. From what I've seen, Dwayne McDuffie isn't out to force SS into continuity; in fact, it was b.t.'s idea to include him in "The Once and Future Thing, Part 2."

By the way, great list Karkull.He doesn't need to force it in. It already IS in. Jebus! Do people really hate Static Shock that much? (I know you don't GMahler but it's frustrating.)

When I first saw Fearful Symmetry I saw Hardcastles' remark about meta-humans as a direct reference to Static Shock. The episode tied in pretty much every other series (even The Zeta Project) so that's what I assumed.

All I'm saying is that is frustrating to hear that people think that SS picks and chooses when to be in continuity where every episode season two and beyond takes pains to show it is in the DCAU. It's cannon, people. Deal with it.

[The Detective]

He doesn't need to force it in. It already IS in. Jebus! Do people really hate Static Shock that much? (I know you don't GMahler but it's frustrating.)

When I first saw Fearful Symmetry I saw Hardcastles' remark about meta-humans as a direct reference to Static Shock. The episode tied in pretty much every other series (even The Zeta Project) so that's what I assumed.

All I'm saying is that is frustrating to hear that people think that SS picks and chooses when to be in continuity where every episode season two and beyond takes pains to show it is in the DCAU. It's cannon, people. Deal with it.Except for "Hoop Squad" which takes place in a bizarre, alternate time line.

And on a side note, might the Lexo Suit that appeared in "TLSOK" also be a forebearer to Lex's Krypto armor?

</The Detective>

[Fone Bone]

Except for "Hoop Squad" which takes place in a bizarre, alternate time line. I could think of ten DCAU episodes that are worse than Hoop Squad. Non-Static Shock ones too.
In no particular order:
Moon of the Wolf
Sentries of the Last Cosmos
Shadows
Trial
The Terrible Trio
Hooked Up
Rats
I've Got Batman in My Basement
Superman's Pal
Metamorphosis


And on a side note, might the Lexo Suit that appeared in "TLSOK" also be a forebearer to Lex's Krypto armor?

</The Detective>Hey, it might be!

[Bruce Kent]

I could think of ten DCAU episodes that are worse than Hoop Squad. Non-Static Shock ones too.
In no particular order:
Trial
Metamorphosis
No way.

[batmanbeyond13]

Great stuff and well put together. World's Finest was mentioned, but not noted on list. It should be with the weapons Luthor tried to develop with Bruce Wayne.

[Arsenal]

Fone Bone has made an excellent point. It would be interesting if the "Bang Baby" gas was government sanctioned. Perhaps Luthor was funding Alva. Maybe the RFG were variants of Bang Babies. Too much of a stretch?

PS I fully accept SS as continuity... except for Romeo in the Mix.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

Very nice, When do you find time to do this?

[Fone Bone]

No way.Fine. That's still eight.

[Casey Mack]

Fine. That's still eight.
Fone bone "Hoop squad" is the worst DCAU episode i have ever seen. The simple fact is it was a mistake, and we all no that it happened in an alternate timeline....we hope:sweat:
________
Deposit Premium Forum (http://www.insurance-forums.org/deposit-premium/)

[Style]

What about Batman Beyond's "Heroes"?

The government manipulated circumstances to create it's own team of Superheroes, whom they funded, in an attempt to muscle Batman out of Gotham after his sudden and recent reapperance. When the Trio's members began to become unstable, someone who looks like he could be a descendant of Eilling tries to destroy them, violently.

Perhaps it represents the last Vestiges of Cadmus? OR- When Superman defeats Cadmus at the end of the season, he still won't really have "defeated" them.

[Fone Bone]

Fone bone "Hoop squad" is the worst DCAU episode i have ever seen. The simple fact is it was a mistake, and we all no that it happened in an alternate timeline....we hope:sweat:Said the man who started a thread on The Batman being better than Batman The Animated Series.:p

[Squall]

P.S. I fully accept SS as continuity... except for Romeo in the Mix.
I'll gladly accept Static Shock into continuity... if you take out all the episodes featuring athletes, rap stars, etc. Unlike the other modern DCAU shows, Static Shock won't age well, because in 20 years kids watching the show are going to see "Li'l Romeo" and ask, "Who the !@#^ is that?"

[90'sCartoonMan]

What about Batman Beyond's "Heroes"?

The government manipulated circumstances to create it's own team of Superheroes, whom they funded, in an attempt to muscle Batman out of Gotham after his sudden and recent reapperance. When the Trio's members began to become unstable, someone who looks like he could be a descendant of Eilling tries to destroy them, violently.

Perhaps it represents the last Vestiges of Cadmus? OR- When Superman defeats Cadmus at the end of the season, he still won't really have "defeated" them.
Hm...I wonder how that'll work. But as Justice League Unlimited constantly proves, many things in the DCAU can be explained and tied together.

Nice work, Karkull. I can tell you put a lot of effort into it. If I made that list, no way would I have EVER thought to include that detail from "Blind as A Bat", but you're right. Now I feel like there's something missing...but unless Roland Dagget's chemicals are involved or Toyman gets a government contract, I think you hit all the bases.

[Fone Bone]

I'll gladly accept Static Shock into continuity... if you take out all the episodes featuring athletes, rap stars, etc. Unlike the other modern DCAU shows, Static Shock won't age well, because in 20 years kids watching the show are going to see "Li'l Romeo" and ask, "Who the !@#^ is that?"What IS your problem with rappers on this show? Lil' Romeo was grating but the episode itself was alright. And Rubberband Man is my favorite character on the show and he's a rapper.

Don't be such a hata.

[Duckboy]

Hi, everyone -- longtime lurker, first-time poster.

I join everybody in saluting Karkull for creating this impressive catalog. (I salute him as well for the Watchtower site, especially the "Who's Who in the JLU" page.)


Another thought about "Metamorphosis": after Metamorpho's first battle with the League, didn't Stagg comment on the usefulness a weapon that could destroy the JL?

If so, that would make him one of the few villains to express such an idea onscreen. I think only Luthor and Gen. Eiling (both key players in Cadmus history) have made similar observations.

If I misremember the episode ... well, never mind.



And the inhabitants of Argos were colonists that left Krypton. If I lived on the moon I'd still be a human. I'd just have a different address.True. But if generations of your descendants grew to be genetically distinct from the humans on earth, *they* wouldn't quite still be human. Wasn't that supposed to be the deal with the Argosians, so that Kal-El would still be the one and only Last Kryptonian?


Because Argosians and Kryptonians sprang from a common humanoid ancestor millions of years before, Supergirl's powers closely parallel Superman's. Not that the genetic difference has ever come up since then.

[Karkull]

True. But if generations of your descendants grew to be genetically distinct from the humans on earth, *they* wouldn't quite still be human. Wasn't that supposed to be the deal with the Argosians, so that Kal-El would still be the one and only Last Kryptonian?

Not that the genetic difference has ever come up since then.
First off, welcome to the message boards, Duckboy, and thanks for the kind words.

Second, here's my take on the whole Supergirl / Argos thing. Originally, when the creative team was planning their Supergirl appearance, they originally intended to just have her be the cousin from Krypton, as she was in the Silver Age stories. However, they ran into static from DC Comics, who wanted Superman to be the last Kryptonian which, in and of itself, is immediately contradicted by the Phantom Zone criminals. Anyway, here's what they had to say about Supergirl, from her STAS bio:

Because Argosians and Kryptonians sprang from a common humanoid ancestor millions of years before, Supergirl's powers closely parallel Superman's. As a result, Supergirl has powers that are similar to Superman's (flight, strength, heat vision, super-hearing), but is more resistant to Kryptonite (exposure to the radioactive element would kill Superman in about twenty minutes but Supergirl could hold out for several hours).

That last part sticks out to me, and essentially puts the entire entry into question. Think about all the scenes where Supergirl is taken out as quickly as Superman is when exposed to Kryptonite (Legacy, The Return). Way I see it, this entry was thrown together to appease the DC Comics people -- give them their non-Kryptonian Supergirl so they wouldn't complain -- but allow them to basically ignore it and treat her as just another Kryptonian on the show. Lying and/or withholding information in the press materials isn't new -- didn't the Justice League press kit say that Hawkgirl was zapped over here by a "dimensional transport beam?"

Way I see it, the inhabitants of Argos were recent transports who colonized the planet a few generations before Krypton exploded. Think for a minute: even taking into account how advanced the Kryptonians were, would they have been in any position to send people on a rocket to colonize another planet "millions of years" earlier? Compare to us millions of years before now: assuming our genetic ancestors were anything remotely like us, I doubt they'd take the time away from hunting/gathering to build a rocket to colonize Mars.

Of course, that's just me, and I may be proven wrong.

[Funkatron]

First off, welcome to the message boards, Duckboy, and thanks for the kind words.

Second, here's my take on the whole Supergirl / Argos thing. Originally, when the creative team was planning their Supergirl appearance, they originally intended to just have her be the cousin from Krypton, as she was in the Silver Age stories. However, they ran into static from DC Comics, who wanted Superman to be the last Kryptonian which, in and of itself, is immediately contradicted by the Phantom Zone criminals. Anyway, here's what they had to say about Supergirl, from her STAS bio:

Because Argosians and Kryptonians sprang from a common humanoid ancestor millions of years before, Supergirl's powers closely parallel Superman's. As a result, Supergirl has powers that are similar to Superman's (flight, strength, heat vision, super-hearing), but is more resistant to Kryptonite (exposure to the radioactive element would kill Superman in about twenty minutes but Supergirl could hold out for several hours).

That last part sticks out to me, and essentially puts the entire entry into question. Think about all the scenes where Supergirl is taken out as quickly as Superman is when exposed to Kryptonite (Legacy, The Return). Way I see it, this entry was thrown together to appease the DC Comics people -- give them their non-Kryptonian Supergirl so they wouldn't complain -- but allow them to basically ignore it and treat her as just another Kryptonian on the show. Lying and/or withholding information in the press materials isn't new -- didn't the Justice League press kit say that Hawkgirl was zapped over here by a "dimensional transport beam?"

Way I see it, the inhabitants of Argos were recent transports who colonized the planet a few generations before Krypton exploded. Think for a minute: even taking into account how advanced the Kryptonians were, would they have been in any position to send people on a rocket to colonize another planet "millions of years" earlier? Compare to us millions of years before now: assuming our genetic ancestors were anything remotely like us, I doubt they'd take the time away from hunting/gathering to build a rocket to colonize Mars.

Of course, that's just me, and I may be proven wrong.
That is, if they only developed space travel relatively recently. We, as humans have only traveled in space for the last 60 years. But, if Kryptonions hit thier technological stride hundreds of years earlier, it would make sense. They seem to be way more advanced than Earth. Whether that be from just a better understanding and developing it faster or just having the technology longer, I don't know.

Huh. I hope everyone understood that. Still a might groggy this morning

[Karkull]

That is, if they only developed space travel relatively recently. We, as humans have only traveled in space for the last 60 years. But, if Kryptonions hit thier technological stride hundreds of years earlier, it would make sense. They seem to be way more advanced than Earth. Whether that be from just a better understanding and developing it faster or just having the technology longer, I don't know.
Granted but, come on, millions of years? I don't buy it.

[Funkatron]

Granted but, come on, millions of years? I don't buy it. Not millions, I agree with you on that. Hundreds or thousands. But not millions. Not unless someone else intervened.

By the by, thanks for the reference to all the reletive eps. You rock, man!

[SilverKnight]

What IS your problem with rappers on this show? Lil' Romeo was grating but the episode itself was alright. And Rubberband Man is my favorite character on the show and he's a rapper.

Don't be such a hata.Speak for yourself, Fone, my boy. :p I think his problem with including such things in SS is that it screws the somewhat timeless quality the DCAU has more or less had. Yes, it can be dated because of the time period in which the shows were made, but there's never any specific year slapped onto the whole thing, ergo, allowing people to fudge details to make it work better as they see fit. (See also: Karkull's eppy list.) Adding Lil' Romeo distorts that, solidly nailing SS's feet to the ground time-wise, because no matter how you slice it, Lil' Romeo is a product of the early 21st centurly Li'l rap fad, which should have never--never--been included in the DCAU.

No, wait. That's my problem with it. Go fig.

Oh, and kick ass list, Karkull. I can't wait to see what will be added as time goes on. :D

[Fone Bone]

Speak for yourself, Fone, my boy. :p I think his problem with including such things in SS is that it screws the somewhat timeless quality the DCAU has more or less had. Yes, it can be dated because of the time period in which the shows were made, but there's never any specific year slapped onto the whole thing, ergo, allowing people to fudge details to make it work better as they see fit. (See also: Karkull's eppy list.) Adding Lil' Romeo distorts that, solidly nailing SS's feet to the ground time-wise, because no matter how you slice it, Lil' Romeo is a product of the early 21st centurly Li'l rap fad, which should have never--never--been included in the DCAU.

No, wait. That's my problem with it. Go fig.

Oh, and kick ass list, Karkull. I can't wait to see what will be added as time goes on. :DThat's IT? It wrecks the DCAU timeline? Ummm. Okay. What did everybody think of those virtual reality helmets in BTAS' What is Reality?:eek:

[Mynd Hed]

That's IT? It wrecks the DCAU timeline? Ummm. Okay. What did everybody think of those virtual reality helmets in BTAS' What is Reality?:eek:

There's a pretty clear difference in that the creators can't be expected to adjust for advances in technology before the fact. No one knows which gadgets will look outdated in ten years, but EVERYONE should know that Lil' Romeo has the career lifespan of a donut at a cop convention. They both date the DCAU about the same, but one is excusable and one is not.

[Fone Bone]

There's a pretty clear difference in that the creators can't be expected to adjust for advances in technology before the fact. No one knows which gadgets will look outdated in ten years, but EVERYONE should know that Lil' Romeo has the career lifespan of a donut at a cop convention. They both date the DCAU about the same, but one is excusable and one is not.Ummm. Okay? What exactly is wrong with dating the DCAU again? I'm not sure I get where the complaint lies.:confused:

[William C. Maune]

That last part sticks out to me, and essentially puts the entire entry into question. Think about all the scenes where Supergirl is taken out as quickly as Superman is when exposed to Kryptonite (Legacy, The Return). Way I see it, this entry was thrown together to appease the DC Comics people -- give them their non-Kryptonian Supergirl so they wouldn't complain -- but allow them to basically ignore it and treat her as just another Kryptonian on the show. Lying and/or withholding information in the press materials isn't new -- didn't the Justice League press kit say that Hawkgirl was zapped over here by a "dimensional transport beam?"

The way I see it, it is more an issue of context. Say some folks are more susceptible to cyanide than other folks. Even if someone has a decent resistance (i.e. like Supergirl's resistance to Kryptonite), if you give them enough they are still going to go down pretty quick. On multiple occasions we've seen that it doesn't take very much kryptonite to take down Superman. Supergirl could probably survive that amount for much longer. However, the tunnel in The Return was littered with tons of kryptonite. Expose Supergirl to enough kryptonite radiation and she is also going to go down pretty quickly. I don't think scenes such as The Return show that she is just as susceptible to kryptonite as Superman, instead there was just so much kryptonite present that her greater tolerance wasn't even enough to withstand it.

[Style]

Ummm. Okay? What exactly is wrong with dating the DCAU again? I'm not sure I get where the complaint lies.:confused:Playing "Devil's Advocate" for the moment, lack of dating is a BTAS thing. You see, originally Bruce Timm had the out there idea to set BTAS literally in 1939. But the writers balked, because they had a hard time writing in an era before computers and the like. So the series was weird stylistic conglomeration, wherein references to modern technology were abundant but he whole thing still had a 1940's design mentality.

So, it was declared that BTAS was "timeless," in that it was set in 20th century america, but you couldn't nail it down further than that.

Ofcourse, this idea was abondoned once we got into the wider DCAU, (The episode "Joker's Millions" has clear references to DVDs at the tech convention, thus dating it.) It's generally assumed that the series are all happening now, or in the relative now.

Personally, now that it's all "now", I don't see a problem with Static's pop culture references, if it's true to his character. Ofcourse, you all know what my issue with timelines are in the DCAU: Some characters are realistically aging, and others aren't. If b.t. wants it in peanuts time, he should stick with that, because you can't have it both ways.

Still Fone, you should have expected this. There will always be people who try to nudge Static out, even though there's no way it CAN"T be continuity now, just as there will always be people who naively try to shoe-horn TT INTO continuity, even though there's no way it can be.

[Fone Bone]

Playing "Devil's Advocate" for the moment, lack of dating is a BTAS thing. You see, originally Bruce Timm had the out there idea to set BTAS literally in 1939. But the writers balked, because they had a hard time writing in an era before computers and the like. So the series was weird stylistic conglomeration, wherein references to modern technology were abundant but he whole thing still had a 1940's design mentality.

So, it was declared that BTAS was "timeless," in that it was set in 20th century america, but you couldn't nail it down further than that.

Ofcourse, this idea was abondoned once we got into the wider DCAU, (The episode "Joker's Millions" has clear references to DVDs at the tech convention, thus dating it.) It's generally assumed that the series are all happening now, or in the relative now. Is this the same deal with the pop singer in Secret Society or the Bubblegum pop the Question is so fond of?


Personally, now that it's all "now", I don't see a problem with Static's pop culture references, if it's true to his character. Ofcourse, you all know what my issue with timelines are in the DCAU: Some characters are realistically aging, and others aren't. If b.t. wants it in peanuts time, he should stick with that, because you can't have it both ways. I agree with this. Aging Barbara and Dick but not aging Bruce is a mistake.


Still Fone, you should have expected this. There will always be people who try to nudge Static out, even though there's no way it CAN"T be continuity now, just as there will always be people who naively try to shoe-horn TT INTO continuity, even though there's no way it can be.Maybe I was just getting a little sore because it was Karkull doing it who is usually so great with DCAU stuff. Thank you for explaining it to me.

[Arsenal]

Hey remember that de-canonization virus that ran rampant through The Call talkback? Maybe we could McDuffie to sprinkle some of that action on Romeo in the Mix and Hoop Squad. But I'll be damned if it gets on any episode involving Anansi.

[Squall]

Hey remember that de-canonization virus that ran rampant through The Call talkback? Maybe we could McDuffie to sprinkle some of that action on Romeo in the Mix and Hoop Squad. But I'll be damned if it gets on any episode involving Anansi.
Ugh. Just the thought of the 'Hoop Squad' in the Watchtower makes me ill... :ack:

[Duckboy]

Just once more on the Argos thing, then I'll drop it. (I swear!)


I don't think scenes such as The Return show that she is just as susceptible to kryptonite as Superman, instead there was just so much kryptonite present that her greater tolerance wasn't even enough to withstand it.That's a plausible explanation. I also think Karkull is correct, though, that the creators write Supergirl as though she has the same strengths and weaknesses as Superman, ignoring the whole Argosian question.

Judging a Kryptonian's/Argosian's tolerance of Kryptonite is pretty futile, anyway. If that tiny shard of Kryptonite Batman's been carrying around is enough to *kill* Superman (that's what they said in BB's "The Call," right?), the bigger chunks of the stuff he routinely encouters (the statue in "World's Finest," the Kryptonite-enhanced missles in "Legacy," the piece that powers Metallo, etc.) probably should have hurt him a lot more than they did. Like his strength, his tolerance varies depending on the needs of the story.


Way I see it, this entry was thrown together to appease the DC Comics people -- give them their non-Kryptonian Supergirl so they wouldn't complain -- but allow them to basically ignore it and treat her as just another Kryptonian on the show.Whether we believe the common-ancestor theory or the recent-colonist theory, I think everybody can agree with your basic point here: that the whole Argos thing was an extremely clever move on the creators' part. As you say, it's enough to keep the suits happy, but also insignificant enough that the writers never, ever have to deal with it.

And as for whether there are any meaningful genetic differences between Superman and Supergirl, we fanboys and fangirls can go on debating, knowing there will never be a conclusive answer. :)



So, back on topic: if Shaq became a government-sponsored superhero and colonized Argos, would would he still be resistant to Kryptonite?

<cough>

Sorry 'bout that.

[Mynd Hed]

Ummm. Okay? What exactly is wrong with dating the DCAU again? I'm not sure I get where the complaint lies.:confused:

Because you can go back and watch almost any episode of B:TAS (with some unavoidable exceptions due to advancements in gadgetry) and it will be just as relevant today as it was ten years ago. Whereas in ten years, people are going to watch Static Shock and see Lil' Romeo and either go, "Who the hell is that?" or gag and groan and say, "I can't believe people used to listen to that crap!" (Leaving out for the moment the number of people who currently watch SS and say the exact same thing in the present tense.)
At best, it'll be an enjoyable exercise in nostalgia and camp, like, say, Transformers: The Movie, with its painfully cheesy soundtrack and 80's celebrity voices. At worst, it'll be just plain bad, like so much of the rest of the 80's. But it'll never have the same kind of timeless, enduring elegance of the best of the DCAU.


Still Fone, you should have expected this. There will always be people who try to nudge Static out, even though there's no way it CAN"T be continuity now, just as there will always be people who naively try to shoe-horn TT INTO continuity, even though there's no way it can be.

Of course SS is continuity. The issue is whether it makes a positive contribution to the greater DCAU, or whether it's a black sheep. For many of us, SS is to the greater DCAU as Episode 1 is to Star Wars, or Enterprise is to Star Trek.

[MrTuesday]

Wouldn't Shaq become Steel? I think I remember a movie about that. Going by that logic, we have to say that Bruce Wayne has had multiple plastic surgery operations over the years, from looking like Micheal Keaton to Val Kilmer to George Clooney.

[Toddman]

One quick item to remember about the whole "Colonization of Argos" thing...

Despite what was written up in the STAS series bible or what may have been said on the STAS DVD commentaries, the colonization of Argos by Kryptonians has never been mentioned during any actual episode up to this point.

The only thing that has ever made it to air regarding the two planets' relationship was during "Little Girl Lost" part 1, when Kara's mom called Krypton "Argos' sister planet" (or something like that). At no time has colonization ever been mentioned.

Taking that into account, I'm still of the mind frame that Supergirl and her people have no official connection to Krypton other than sharing the same solar system zip code.

BTW, great work Karkull! Also, do you think The Terror Beyond should go on the list? It brought up the idea that the military initially regarded Aquaman's rescue of Grundy as an interference by the Justice League.

Toddman

[Fone Bone]

Because you can go back and watch almost any episode of B:TAS (with some unavoidable exceptions due to advancements in gadgetry) and it will be just as relevant today as it was ten years ago. Whereas in ten years, people are going to watch Static Shock and see Lil' Romeo and either go, "Who the hell is that?" or gag and groan and say, "I can't believe people used to listen to that crap!" (Leaving out for the moment the number of people who currently watch SS and say the exact same thing in the present tense.)
At best, it'll be an enjoyable exercise in nostalgia and camp, like, say, Transformers: The Movie, with its painfully cheesy soundtrack and 80's celebrity voices. At worst, it'll be just plain bad, like so much of the rest of the 80's. But it'll never have the same kind of timeless, enduring elegance of the best of the DCAU. Where does the Batman episode Torch Song fit into this? Or the pop songs from Only a Dream, Secret Society, and Fearful Symmetry? Is this okay becayse they aren't real groups? If that's the issue if Lil' Romeo DOES become a has been does it even matter? Won't next generation kids just assume he's in a made up group like Cassidy? Or if he has staying power will THAT be the thing to date the episodes? If it is do Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby's caricatures date the old Looney Tunes enough to make them unenjoyable?


Of course SS is continuity. The issue is whether it makes a positive contribution to the greater DCAU, or whether it's a black sheep. For many of us, SS is to the greater DCAU as Episode 1 is to Star Wars, or Enterprise is to Star Trek.I can understand this point of view. But that's not what a lot of people are saying. They are saying that parts of Static Shock should be ignored completely. It's also frustrating to hear a knowledgable continuity guy like Karkull say Static Shock plays fast and loose with DCAU continuity when any fan of the show can tell you that is not the case.

[staticblue]

Good list Karkull but you missed a key element--Static Shock. Here are some highlights.

Shock to the System/ Aftershock: It is revealed the mayor of Dakota had something to do with the Big Bang Baby gas along with industrialist Edwin Alva. First use of the word Meta-human in the DCAU.

Junior: Alva's son uses the mutangenic gas to go on a crime spree and is turned into a statue. Alva vows to do everything in his power to turn him back.

Hard as Nails--Bruce Wayne gives funding to find a cure for the Bang Baby Syndrome.

No Man's an Island: Edwin Alva kidnaps Rubberband Man, Gear, and Talon and tries to abduct Static and Hotstreak to reanimate his son. Static helps him anyways and Edwin Alva Junior is reanimated. The island they held him on is so big there is NO WAY they did not have government funding for this project. (Possibly as a way to study Bang Baby Syndrome)

Hoop Squad: (sorry, it counts). The government sets up it's own team of superheroes out of basketball players and learns Static's secret identity. Note that the Hoop Squad uses special suits to give them their "powers" and are not meta-human in any way.

Wet and Wild: The government finds a cure for Bang Baby syndrome. Aquamaria is the first successful test subject.

Power Outage: The government takes matters into it's own hands and releases the Bang Baby cure in gas form into Dakota's air curing all of the Bang Babies. After a struggle with Ebon over the last cannister of mutagenic gas Static and Gear regain their powers. Gear decides to come up with a cure for the cure by the time the goverment releases more gas into the populace. This episode is notable for the government taking away Static and Gear's powers without their consent.

I'd also add a couple of other JLU episodes:

The Cat and the Canary: While not tied directly into Cadmus the episode is notable for the glimpses we see of anti-superpowered sentiment. This could tie into Luthor being elected President.

The Ties That Bind: Another political struggle on Apokalips the League refuses to get involved in. The League deciding the politcal climate on other world's has to be a sore spot for Cadmus.

This thread was a great idea. Thanx krakull. And FoneBone, thanx for posting the static stuff, cause I was gonna do it as well. I als hav a couple of other episodes to other shows that I think should have been added:


Cult of the cat- Correct me if Im wrong, but wasnt there a huge tiger of some sorts at the end of this ep? I cant fully rmember the episode, but wouldnt that technology have to have come from somewere?

...

thats all for now. crap, Im sure I had some others as well, I just cant remember them Ill be back with more

[The Detective]

But that's not what a lot of people are saying. They are saying that parts of Static Shock should be ignored completely.You know my comment about "Hoop Squad" taking place in an alternate universe was a joke. Not trying to bash SS or anything.

</The Detective>

[Mynd Hed]

Where does the Batman episode Torch Song fit into this? Or the pop songs from Only a Dream, Secret Society, and Fearful Symmetry? Is this okay becayse they aren't real groups?

I'd say that such examples aren't neatly grouped into "okay" and "not-okay," but occupy points on a spectrum.

[Fone Bone]

[QUOTE=Fone Bone] But that's not what a lot of people are saying. They are saying that parts of Static Shock should be ignored completely.QUOTE]
You know my comment about "Hoop Squad" taking place in an alternate universe was a joke. Not trying to bash SS or anything.

</The Detective>Oh, okay. Thank you for the clarification.

Mynd Hed what do you mean by spectrums?

[Paul_Cousins]

The way I see it, it is more an issue of context. Say some folks are more susceptible to cyanide than other folks. Even if someone has a decent resistance (i.e. like Supergirl's resistance to Kryptonite), if you give them enough they are still going to go down pretty quick. On multiple occasions we've seen that it doesn't take very much kryptonite to take down Superman. Supergirl could probably survive that amount for much longer. However, the tunnel in The Return was littered with tons of kryptonite. Expose Supergirl to enough kryptonite radiation and she is also going to go down pretty quickly. I don't think scenes such as The Return show that she is just as susceptible to kryptonite as Superman, instead there was just so much kryptonite present that her greater tolerance wasn't even enough to withstand it.Yea, there was about a 1000 plus times more kryptonite in that tunnel (it was line with it) than was on Lex's old kryptonite ring.

The much kryptonite might have out right killed Superman in under a minute.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Mynd Hed what do you mean by spectrums?
I think he means that something being topical/time-bound doesn't necessarily yield a binary "it is / it isn't" answer. The concept of boy bands has spanned for a few decades now (remember Menudo?). Talking about boy bands in the DCAU gets you within the span of a bunch of years, making them topical but not terribly localized in time. The same goes for DVDs or cell phones. However, talking about a specific boy band, a specific movie, or a specific model cell phone ties you down to a particular point in time.

It's kind of like that Bugs Bunny cartoon where he and Yosemite Sam are at the circus. Circuses aren't as common now as they were back when the cartoon was made, so the circus reference is topical but not specific. However, the joke where Yosemite Sam pounds on a door screaming, "Open this door! Open it I say!" and then turns to the audience and says, "Didja notice how I didn't say 'Richard'?" is EXTREMELY topical because he's referring to a pop song (http://www.alsimmons.com/lyrics/cl_openthedoor.html) of the time (here's Louis Jordan's version on iTunes (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=25151&selectedItemId=25118)). Most of the circus jokes still work, as do jokes about skipping records, but the "Richard" joke mostly draws puzzled looks.

-- Ed/Ace

[Ben]

Thanks! That's very helpful to someone (like me) who's just started watching.

[Mynd Hed]

I think he means that something being topical/time-bound doesn't necessarily yield a binary "it is / it isn't" answer. The concept of boy bands has spanned for a few decades now (remember Menudo?). Talking about boy bands in the DCAU gets you within the span of a bunch of years, making them topical but not terribly localized in time. The same goes for DVDs or cell phones. However, talking about a specific boy band, a specific movie, or a specific model cell phone ties you down to a particular point in time.

Exactly. The Question listening to pop music isn't quite as timeless as, say, a B:TAS episode that could as easily take place in the forties as the nineties, but since bubblegum pop has been around since the late 70's and will likely be around in some form or another for my own kids to listen to someday, it's less dating than if the Question had been listening to, say, Ricky Martin. Whether it's "okay" or not is kind of a matter of opinion-- it's all relative. I don't have a big problem with it, but I could see how someone who was a big enough B:TAS purist might. (Although I don't see how that person could possibly still be watching the rest of the DCAU if they were really THAT fanatical.)

[Fone Bone]

Exactly. The Question listening to pop music isn't quite as timeless as, say, a B:TAS episode that could as easily take place in the forties as the nineties, but since bubblegum pop has been around since the late 70's and will likely be around in some form or another for my own kids to listen to someday, it's less dating than if the Question had been listening to, say, Ricky Martin. Whether it's "okay" or not is kind of a matter of opinion-- it's all relative. I don't have a big problem with it, but I could see how someone who was a big enough B:TAS purist might. (Although I don't see how that person could possibly still be watching the rest of the DCAU if they were really THAT fanatical.)Point taken, especially that last one.;)

[Alph]

Bumping this up in hopes of veering this back to the original topic...


I've been watching the episodes again and I've noticed various stuffs that seem like they could tie into the Cadmus arc (aside from the things that were mentioned in the link in the first post).


"Nothing to Fear" is the first mention of Star Labs. Hamilton, a member of Star Labs, later joins Cadmus.

"Feet of Clay" Pts 1 and 2 is the first appearance of a metahuman. Since Cadmus's function was protecting the world from metahumans, this seems like an important marking point.

Temple Fugit's appearances are important due to the fact that he becomes an important member of Task Force X, which is part of Cadmus.

Bane is the product of the first known government based metahuman experimentation. Project Gilgamesh seems like it could be a likely forerunner to Project Cadmus, although they probably aren't directly related (being in different countries and all).

"Heart of Steel" pts 1 and 2 mark the first appearance of sentient robotics created by earthlings. The technology developed in this episode no doubt one day helped lead to AMAZO's creation, which fueled Luthor's involvement in Cadmus. This technology also probably lead to Zeta's creation.


Also, the movie "Return of the Joker" is retroactively tied into Cadmus due to the fact that we learn that the technology Joker used to revive himself was stolen from Cadmus.

The royal flush gang in BB is also tied into Cadmus since the original RFG members were metahumans that Cadmus had been experimenting on.


I bet there's other connections as well that I'll think of later.

[Toddman]

I'll be happy to help you guide this old ship back on course...




Bane is the product of the first known government based metahuman experimentation. Project Gilgamesh seems like it could be a likely forerunner to Project Cadmus, although they probably aren't directly related (being in different countries and all).




Actually, the opening flashback sequence of "Patriot Act" showed that Nazi Germany performed government sponsored metahuman experiments with the Captain Nazi project in 1944.



Toddman

[Wolf Boy2]

Actually, the opening flashback sequence of "Patriot Act" showed that Nazi Germany performed government sponsored metahuman experiments with the Captain Nazi project in 1944.
I would call the Nazi meeting J'onn in "Savage Time" the first modern alien/human contact.


Something that bugged me on the list:


Superman nearly loses control again, as Mongul pushes him to the breaking point. Batman presumably lets this slide, however, as Mongul's Black Mercy organism forces him to re-experience his parent's murder (he also beat the hell out of Wonder Woman).


"Who" beat the hell out of Wonder Woman? I know it was mongul, but it reads as though it were Batman.