Justice League Unlimited "Doomsday Sanction" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Bird Boy]

Time for another hiatus! Last new episode of JLU for a few weeks (or months, whenever new ones get scheduled)!


http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/talkback.jpg (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/)

Episode #16 - Doomsday Sanction
Original Airdate - February 19th 2005

While Superman battles Doomsday in the heart of a Volcano, Batman discovers an elaborate conspiracy to destroy the Justice League.

Comments?

[syphos]

Batman is a peeping tom!:o

Wow the government is powerful! Lots of powerful people working together.
One of the best episodes ever!

[Captain Clown]

That opening was just awesome, and completely unexpected.

[Rabi~en~Rose]

That opening was just awesome, and completely unexpected.

so was Doomsdays origin! :eek:

[Duke]

Flash is still his awesome self.

Has HG or GL said anything yet in this episode?

I know Superman can survive lava and all, but how can his costume?

[creativerealms]

My god I'm loving this episode. Welcome back Dr. Milo oh wait your dead already too bad.

[Smitty61050]

so was Doomsdays origin! :eek:
So I take it the comics never revealed his origin? Sorry if this is a silly question, I've never really followed DC comics that closely. :sad:

[NickWhiz1]

"Superman, I'm here to kill you. Is this a bad time?"

[Rook]

love how they pick the worse possible time to pick a fight.
so how many episodes will they go through with this? since we all know whats going ot happen...

[Duke]

So I take it the comics never revealed his origin? Sorry if this is a silly question, I've never really followed DC comics that closely. :sad:I believe Doomsday was created on Krypton in the comics.

And the government conspiracy is happening all because of the Justice Lords. Terrific.

[Juu-kuchi]

Wow. The main 7 are not really fond of The Question. But hopefully we have a Question episode that focuses on his investigation.

Good to see Flash again even though he is not the focus of this episode.

[MattThomasM2B]

Heh, I seem to remember a thread on this board about there the werewolf episode of Batman, and most people didn't like it. I guess they've gotten their reward tonight.

[Grimlock]

Can anyone give me a full list of all the Timm universe continuity references there were??

I don't remember who Dr. Milo is.

Who was the lady with the purple hair who talked about the armor?

Were there any other dialogue references besides "Dr. Langstrom's research"? I think i missed them.

I love all this continuity stuff, but i can't remember a lot of stuff they're talking about.

Thanks in advance.

[Duke]

Wow. The main 7 are not really fond of The Question. But hopefully we have a Question episode that focuses on his investigation.It's not that they don't like him, they just don't like listening to his conspiracy theories about why the mail is delivered at 12:30PM instead of 12:20PM.


I don't remember who Dr. Milo is.Milo was in two B:TAS episodes: "Cat Scratch Fever" and "Moon of the Wolf." (coincidentally on the Volume 2 Boxset).

I believe Dr. Strange "The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne" (also from B:TAS Vol. 2) was also in the roundtable.

[Killtacular]

I like this episode, even with its talkiness, but I'm really, really, REALLY disappointed by the underwhelming animation. For a story this big, you'd think they would put the MAN, Joaquam, on it. And get the AAA boarders on this puppy. But they didn't. God, that Doomsday fight could have been legendary. Instead it's just mediocre, because it ends up being staged, posed, and animated as lame as any regular Justice League episode, complete with unnecessary white flashes and uninteresting cinematography. Is there only one director in the entire show that cares about the art?! After flaunting how well you can choreograph fights with the season 2 premiere, why take so many steps back? I just don't understand it.

Some of the emotions were well done, especially on Waller, but Wonder Woman looked like a robot. Whether happy, upset, angry, she had the same blank look on her face... the same with Martian Manhunter. I don't know what that's about.

Aside from the animation, the action was very tense and well thought out. The story had a good structure to it. At this point in time I'm giving the episode a B, baring the ending. I'll change this post if the ending is great or terrible.

EDIT: Already I feel I have to change this grade to a B- because the poses of Superman punching Doomsday right before throwing him into the volcano were literally taken from For the Man Who Has Everything. Ugh.

EDIT EDIT: You know what, change it back to a B. I really liked Bruce's dialogue with Superman. They always have the best conflicts.

Next episode looks like a Joaquam episode. Too bad it won't be a while until it airs. :/

[Rabi~en~Rose]

does b.t. have a thing for really really ugly CG? :sweat: just wondering......

despite all of Batmans actions in this episode my eyes were on Superman hoping and praying he didn't beat Doomsday the way Lords Superman did... and OH MY GOSH HE TRIED TO NOW I AM SCARED :( :( :( I so did not like the JL's interogation of Doomsday either :( I don't know what to think

[Knight]

Wow

Luthor running for President
Tha Batman /Amanda Waller confrontation
ALL of the big 7 at the round table
Galateas almost up and running again
Doomsdays origin (cloned from Superman)
Dr. Milo from BTAS (now deceased)
Batman with Amanda Waller's private presidential number :p
Phantom Zoning Doomsday (hey I think that was a good idea)
Uh Oh Batman's starting to have his doubts :ack:

Informative ep.

[Duke]

does b.t. have a thing for really really ugly CG? :sweat: just wondering......
Yea, you gotta wonder. I mean, JL has a relatively huge budget, yet friggin D.I.C.E. has better CG...

Anyway, it seems like Hades is coming back soon. Yay!

[Juu-kuchi]

It's not that they don't like him, they just don't like listening to his conspiracy theories about why the mail is delivered at 12:30PM instead of 12:20PM. I know that. Their not-so positive reaction of him made it seem that way though.

Other than that, it was a good episode that progressed the hidden storyline. Then we get previews of "Double Date" and all the others, further increasing my impatience for the next few episodes, which is further magnified at CN's way of scheduling them, since next week is an old one.

[Captain Clown]

Ah, it's all coming to the head. Well, now that they've gotten all that out of the way, I guess we can get to the real surprises.

[SilverKnight]

So much awesomness...language skills suffering...

I'll get back to you when my brain's awakened from its coma.

[Y2Bogus]

Bruce is going to kill Luthor!

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

My god, that rocked. And Hugo Strange made it to his cameo after all. :D (But I thought his cameo had to be taken out because he was part of the embargo?)

[Beat]

So I take it the comics never revealed his origin? Sorry if this is a silly question, I've never really followed DC comics that closely. :sad:
He was created on Krpyton by the guy who gave the Kryptonians nearly all of their advanced technology. Comic Doomsday always saw the face of his hated creator when he saw Supes, which is why he wanted to kill the guy so much.

So Doomsday's in the Phantom Zone. I wonder if he'll see Zod while he's there?

[Knight]

Bruce is going to kill Luthor!
Well that would certainly prevent Superman from doing it.

[creativerealms]

This episode was just perfect, perfect I tell you. I loved every action packed well writen second.

Bruce Wayne might help the government, he finds Superman's punishment to Doomsday to be lordish and might side with the government when the time comes. Ok I don't see Batman taking the governments side but it would be interesting.

I liked Doomsday's DCAU origin, as well as his comment of what ever defeats him can not a second time, it is true.

Nice to see Flash has returned for good and last week was not a one time thing.

Who are all those people in Waller's council? I know Hamilton, the general from Dark Heart, and Dr. Milo but who were those other people.

The question is looking into Lex Luthor? Cool I hope to learn more about that later.

Anyway I give this episode a 10/10.

[Crimson]

Jeez-us. Now that was an episode; possibly even better than FTMWHE. (Dammit, it's also the first ep this season I didn't record.)

Basically, everything I would ask for/expect from an episode of JUSTICE LEAGUE was contained in these 22 minutes:

The Main Seven being center stage, with appropriate emphasis on the "Big Three."

A villain with a developed back-story and motive.

Some great action scenes.

As much tension as could possibly be contained in a single episode: an erupting volcano, Doomsday, an incoming nuke and a tidal wave. sheesh

The best fight sequence since Superman vs Mongul in FTMWHE.

Plotlines from way back when coming to fruition, and one helluva cliff-hanger.

***** from me.

My only quibbles: I would have liked Wonder Woman to have joined Superman in the fight against Doomsday, although then Superman fans would have screamed bloody murder about him needing help.

The animation was also a bit uneven; good throughout most of the episode, but rather stiff at the end. Wonder Woman was animated particularly poorly in the final scene (and curiously mute?)

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Now that's Justice League! That had everything in it that a Justice League episode should be. It rocked! Dr. Milo from "Moon Of The Wolf" and "Cat Scratch Fever" was in it. Cool! Also I noticed Dr. Sivana was in it. And a few others I forgot.

[Quincy Archer]

I stood and gave this episode a standing O one of the best episodes this season.
Oh if you need to know New episodes start April 9

[MattThomasM2B]

This episode only made me sad that it will probably be a few more episodes before the show goes back into a continuity. The show would be much better if they didn't have to make things easier to swallow for the kiddies.

[Space Cadet]

I like this episode, even with its talkiness, but I'm really, really, REALLY disappointed by the underwhelming animation. For a story this big, you'd think they would put the MAN, Joaquam, on it. And get the AAA boarders on this puppy. But they didn't. God, that Doomsday fight could have been legendary. Instead it's just mediocre, because it ends up being staged, posed, and animated as lame as any regular Justice League episode, complete with unnecessary white flashes and uninteresting cinematography. Is there only one director in the entire show that cares about the art?! After flaunting how well you can choreograph fights with the season 2 premiere, why take so many steps back? I just don't understand it.

Some of the emotions were well done, especially on Waller, but Wonder Woman looked like a robot. Whether happy, upset, angry, she had the same blank look on her face... the same with Martian Manhunter. I don't know what that's about.

Aside from the animation, the action was very tense and well thought out. The story had a good structure to it. At this point in time I'm giving the episode a B, baring the ending. I'll change this post if the ending is great or terrible.

EDIT: Already I feel I have to change this grade to a B- because the poses of Superman punching Doomsday right before throwing him into the volcano were literally taken from For the Man Who Has Everything. Ugh.

EDIT EDIT: You know what, change it back to a B. I really liked Bruce's dialogue with Superman. They always have the best conflicts.

Next episode looks like a Joaquam episode. Too bad it won't be a while until it airs. :/
So, I would guess Season 2 is off to a better start than Season 1?

[Knight]

My god, that rocked. And Hugo Strange made it to his cameo after all. :D (But I thought his cameo had to be taken out because he was part of the embargo?)Shhhhh. Dont tell anyone.:D

I guess he isnt considered major. But anytime you can sneak in a Bat character its a good thing.

[Apache Chief]

I loved Batman's doubts. Let's face, we can disagree with their methods, but the Government has a point. Perhaps Batman's doubts will lead him to create the anti-JL protocols from the Tower of Babel storyline from the comics. Great episode - as a long time fan I love all the continuity.

[DLM]

Just the second 5 star rating I've given an episode since the begining of Justice League.

This is what JLU is supposed to be about. Edge of your seat action and suspense, superior plotting in a cartoon television show, fun references to the comic books. Excellent characterization. All wrapped up in a tight little 30 minute package. This episode is probably the best example of how the half hour format can really shine that we've seen yet. It really felt like there wasn't a wasted moment in this episode.
Extra bonus points for making Doomsday interesting, ironically by simplifying his origen.
Anyone catch the slight jab at the "Death of Superman" comics arc when Doomsday told Superman he was going to kill him? Superman said "But why?" and Doomsday responded essentially "Because its what I do, no reason." I wish I could remember the exact quote but it made me chuckle.
Just great character stuff with Waller, Bats, Supes and WW. "You don't GET to joke, not today, I just took a bullet for you" Great stuff. And closing with the screenshot with Luthor in front of the American flag was perfect. I admit I was begining to seriously doubt the conspiracy arc and whether it was becoming to fluffy, but today's episode really delivered the goods.

One thing though, those Kryptonians really need to start keeping better track of their DNA. Bizzaro, Galatea, now Doomsday. They really gotta do something about that.

[LastStand]

Wow.Man, was batman great in this episode. The interaction between him in amada waller, him shouting at superman.....wow.
It's also interesting to show the contention between the Cadmus head honchos.That is going to blow up soon...I can't wait.

Huh,Hawkgirl's back in with the with the big guns at the round table....Interesting interesting interesting.
That is definately the word to describe this episode.
.........I can't think to well, I'm just giddy.:anime:

[Metallo]

4.5 stars (out of 5)
At no point during JLU have I missed the two parter format as much as for this episode. This episode would have been so much better if it was a two-parter. Where to start....Batman confronting the head of Cadmus, getting to see some of its members and some of what they are up to...not to mention the origin of Doomsday. This episode was certainly chocked full of goodies. This episode was totally keeping the viewer on the edge of your seat! Plus such great emotional moments....everyone standing around, looking concerned as J'onn shouted "Batman" into the radio....Batman later yelling at Superman about how Cadmus was right to be worried...man just does not get any better!

The only thing I did not think much sense was why not just have the Flash race out and take out the missile...I mean, radioing in Captain Atom instead of having a guy who could race out, take the missile apart (or at least knock it off course with a whirlwind) and be back for the rest of the evacuation in like a second? Would have been better to make it make more sense as to why Batman did the job. And the ending look on Batman's face....those protocols, you could see them taking shape in his head.

Certainly enjoyed this one. And the highlights during the credits...some goodies coming up, with Green Arrow and Black Canary teaming up with/against Huntress and The Question, while it looks like two of the "Big 7" will have to get over their rough patch as Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl have a team up coming up.

P.S. - Dr. Milo, the guy who released Doomsday (and was his first victim) was from Batman: The Animated Series...he developed a process which transformed a pro athlete into a full blown werewolf. Additionally, Dr. Milo worked for Dagget in developing a toxin to release to stray animals in Gotham all in the hopes of selling the cure for millions (but was thwarted by the combined efforts of Batman and Catwoman).

[Gpoliceman]

All I have to say was that episode was amazing!

Thank you Bruce Timm and Co.

Great story.

Great Potential.

Luthor for President. Flash's key role. Batman's disgust.

I SOOOO want to see the JLU split with non-powered heroes on one side and superpowered heroes on another! It would so explain Bruce's fallout with the league (in Batman Beyond, it foreshadows he will quit the league eventually) and it would explain why Batman and Wonder Woman can not ever work out.

[Eddie G.]

I believe Doomsday was created on Krypton in the comics.

And the government conspiracy is happening all because of the Justice Lords. Terrific.Well actually Doomsday had to have been created before they knew about the Lords. I do like the tie in though.

The action and animation was mixed for me. It had good moments here and there, but there were things like the island being destroyed and Superman being thrown through the trees that could've been cooler than they ended up looking.

Basically it was the character moments that carried this episode. All the speaking characters came off as strong. When you have four speaking bad guys and five of the league members that says a lot.

The end piece between Bruce and Clark was fantastic, awesome voice acting on Kevin's part, he really took the voice into a range he haven't seen before. Another more subtle but cool moment was when Superman tries to lobotomize Doomsday just like the J. Lord Superman.

[The Avenger]

simply amazing....

[creativerealms]

I thought that one guy looked like Dr Hugo Strange. Maybe JLU can use him in exchange for the Justice League Villain The Batman gets to use. A fair trade off I guess. I would love to see what his part in all of this will be.

[Captain Clown]

...but if Doomsday's cloned from Superman, shouldn't he have heat vision?

At the end I kept thinking of this episode of the Powerpuff Girls where Mojo Jojo has them tied up or something, and while he's gloating over how he defeated them they just fry him with heat vision. :D

Well, I guess he can't fly either, so whatever.:)

[PaQ]

Finally a Doomsday appearance that isn't shortlived. That fight with Superman looked painful, and I definitely like the darker feel JLU is somewhat getting. The council with Doomsday, sending him to the Phantom Zone, Bruce being all snippy towards the others. While Supes always seems to find the good in people, Batman always seems to find the flaws and potential danger in them. Interesting mix. Good episode.

[Phantasm]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: WOW!!!!!!

Batman has no problem barging in on people when they are in the shower?:confused: :ack: :o :anime: God! But still, I love everything he does!!

So, okay, Batman ruled!Although this was supposed to be a Superman centered episode, Batman did all the important work. Again. His confrontation with Amanda Walker was simply characterristically malicious and tremendously well staged. God, JLU ceases to be under the 'cartoon' catagory with each fresh episode.

I love the Gov. conspiracy.Its just inevitable. And to think Batman is starting to become skeptical about fellow League members,Superman to be specific, is just soo...original of the creators to draft into a storyline. It is definately intriguing and a fresh concept as far as I know.

The last scene rocked beyond words! But WHAT THE HECK WAS WRONG WITH THE ANIMATION?!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I am disapointed to say that a potentionally SUPER great JLU moment was RUINED by the CRAPPY ANIMATION!!All I can say is...WHY?!:confused:

That aside, Mr. Conroy did such a convincing angry Batman. Batman has something up his sleeve...and Luthor's involved in no small way...this is going to be beyond awesome!

[Knight]

4.5 stars (out of 5)


The only thing I did not think much sense was why not just have the Flash race out and take out the missile...I mean, radioing in Captain Atom instead of having a guy who could race out, take the missile apart (or at least knock it off course with a whirlwind) and be back for the rest of the evacuation in like a second?. I dont think a simple whirlwind would have knocked that missle off course that would have been a extremely difficult job. Plus the missle was high in the air so "taking it apart" isnt really a option for a guy running on water and lets not forget that communications were screwed up as well so again it would have been hard to get the word out about it as well as the location.

[Conekiller]

This episode ruled.

Could someone refresh my memory about Hugo Strange (my mind clicked when I saw him and Milo, but I couldn't immediately place them seeing as it's been about 10 years since I last saw them)

[mahoney]

I so did not like the JL's interogation of Doomsday either
Yeah, that was very creepy. I haven't seen all JLU eps this season - have they done that seven-chairs-o'-judgement set-up before? Yikes. Fighting to uphold law and order is one thing; thinking they *are* the law is freaky, man.

I like the fact that the danger seems to be coming from both the government and the League, and that both think they're in the right. It's scarily realistic.

I didn't care for the way some of the episode was...I don't know the term. Directed, visually? Like, the intertwined round-table scenes. It was an interesting idea, but it was kinda...cheesy. It's tough to do heavily expository scenes, I guess, and in this case, with that visual, the episode seemed to sort of stop right there. Picked right up again when the scientist had his (fabulous) freak-out fantasy, though.

But I loved the basic plot. Great tension, between the Superman/Doomsday fight and Batman chasing the missile. I wasn't entirely sure why Batman or J'onn didn't call Wonder Woman and have her intercept the missile. She was right there, she can fly, she's super strong, has experience intercepting missiles.... Could have saved Batman both the pain and the loss of another Javelin. But as long as I don't think about that, I'm fine. :)

At any rate, I am looking forward to seeing how the government conspiracy/Justice L(ords)eague story continues to play out.

[Grimlock]

The only thing I did not think much sense was why not just have the Flash race out and take out the missile...I mean, radioing in Captain Atom instead of having a guy who could race out, take the missile apart (or at least knock it off course with a whirlwind) and be back for the rest of the evacuation in like a second? Would have been better to make it make more sense as to why Batman did the job.
What if the missile was too high for flash to reach?

[Stickman]

I hate to make this thread sound like a broken record, but... AWESOME.

"Doomsday Sanction" does for JLU what "Birthmark" did for TT a couple weeks back- it rocked as much as humanly possible in the limits of 30 minutes, and dethroned the previous best episode of the series.

My only TRUE complaint is... well... like Birthmark, this sets the standards for the show from here on. But we've got that epic 4-parter coming up (odds are, it's February now, so thanks to Cartoon Network's brilliant schedule planning, we'll probably see it June 2006). And we know JL(U) can do epic.

And we got to see the entire original 7 in a shot. Nice. For the first time in JLU history, I give it a perfect score.

April 9th now seems so very, very far away...

[Captin "Hank" Murphy]

Very good and well written ep.

I think this ep wasn't as much about Doomsday, as it was about the balance of power between the US Government and the JL. The Millitary always collecting new weapons and trying to make themeselves more powerful than the JL, and the JL has a countless army super heros, who could take over the world in a heartbeat, in a super-high-tech space station with weapons aim at the earth. All it would take to cause a super-world-war, that could eradicate the human race, would be some tensions and one side snapping.

I understand what Bruce is saying, and I can understand why he would be acting a little pissy at Supes. The man just barely and miraculesly survive a nuclear explosion in a little dinger of an escape pod.

[Sue]

Great way to blend the drama of a political thriller with superheroics. The opening scene cracked me up - I can't share the dirty jokes I thought of after watching it :evil: I wasn't too suprised Bats one-upped Amanda Waller, but it was fun to watch. I was suprised HG was at the meeting. The Superman/Doomsday fight was great. Supes fighting shirtless was just hotness :D It also helped convey the seriousness of it (remember how guys would take off their shirts before a fight?). Speaking of hot, I can't wait for the next episodes - Double Date looks like Birds of Prey: TAS, and any episode where Our Heroes (Wonderwoman and Shayera) fight a bad guy (Hades) in Hell is bound to kick serious ass :cool:

[Strollymonster]

It was a pretty exciting episode, aside from the (STILL) poor CG and otherwise mediocre animation, no real quibbles except one.

WHO IS VOTING FOR LEX LUTHOR?!?!

Weren't politicians already untrustworthy enough? The guy's an ex-con and perennial archfoe of Superman...and there are a majority of people that want him to run their country?!

[Batman Fan]

OH MY GOSH, the best episode of JLU ever

The opening scenes were great, Batman's interaction with Amanda and the whole league in the table spinning around talking was great, nice to see Hawkgirl even though she didn't talk. The same thing happened with the people of Project Cadmus was cool to seeing Amanda, Prof. Hamilton (talking about Galatea) the general guy, Dr. Strange and Milo(oh my gosh Batman characters, can't wait to see their roles... well Strange's anyways) and that girl in the purple.

Dr. Milo showing Doomsday's origin was nice, it seems that Doomsday was created to destroy Superman, very interesting. Dr. Milo's death was surprising, I really wanted to see his role in the project but maybe we still will.

The league helping out on the island was cool too, with Superman trying to stop the volcano from erupting, WW moving rocks to let vehicles pass and Flash passing on messages, by the way glad to see Flash again and it's good the didn't exclude him from this episode especially when he says all you have to do is not destroy me and it'll be good.

Superman's fight with Doomsday was great in volcano, the color was really good, and Doomsday's lines were great too. Doomsday to no mercy on trying to kill Superman and likewise as we see Superman trying to labotimize him again but it ends up not working. Then Supermans line "I'll just have to use a bigger fire" was great and then he knocks him in the volcano.

The scene with Batman in the Javelin and he's trying to get rid of the nuclear missle was great too especially when it was hooked on to the Javelin and he navigates it through the forest, then ejects in the water, awesome. It was interesting to see that Amanda didn't want to use the missle and destroy the island, probably cause she knew she'd get busted by Batman. But it was great seeing Batman risking his reputation and life for the league. It was also nice seeing MM and Hawkgirl looking worried about Batman

The end with Bruce and Clark's little fight and Bruce laying down the facts was great, because he expects the worse and Clark doesn't, their arguments are always cool and the end scene with Luthor standing with the flag behind him in Bruce's eyes was good too.

The continuity is great in this episode. The whole reason this is happening is because of events in A Better World, how cool is that. And then refrences to Galatea and Fearful Symmetry, Kirk Langstrom/Man-Bat, Dr. Milo with Moon of the Wolf and possibly Cat Scratch Fever and Hugo Strange maybe making devices like in The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne. Oh, I can't wait to see how this turn out.

All in all, definetly a 5star episode!!

And what's with everyone hating the Question

[Singularity]

And to think Batman is starting to become skeptical about fellow League members,Superman to be specific, is just soo...original of the creators to draft into a storyline. It is definately intriguing and a fresh concept as far as I know. Trust me. It isn't.

[True Noir]

I agree. It was a pretty exciting ep. indeed. Great action, story, and a nice blend of characters. I hope that last scene with Batman in bed is a foreshadowing of some really good episodes to come.

[Metallo]

I dont think a simple whirlwind would have knocked that missle off course that would have been a extremely difficult job. Plus the missle was high in the air so "taking it apart" isnt really a option for a guy running on water and lets not forget that communications were screwed up as well so again it would have been hard to get the word out about it as well as the location.Knight, I beg to differ. First, cruise missiles like the one that was fired, do not fly that far above the water surface, as they are designed that way to help avoid radar detection. Secondly, look at the cartoon again, when Batman positioned the Javalin above the missile and pulled it against the hull, and then turned the plane to avoid hitting the isle, the Javalin's wing was able to dip into the water, so the missile could not have been ~that~ high from the water's surface. Lastly, the Flash has created whirlwinds and water spouts several stories high (in this show in fact, both in "Brave and the Bold" and later when he put out the fire when Eclipso set part of an oil refinery ablaze). So, given the aforementioned facts, the Flash very easily could have knocked the missile off course...just a bit of weak writing from an otherwise stellar episode.

I will agree the communications may have made it difficult to alert the Flash, but at the same time, if they were able to alert Wonder Woman, the Flash could have found the missile in nothing flat just by running around the isle in ever expanding circles.

[Phantasm]

And hurray for a Huntress appearance on JLU!It would be fun to see GA/BC again too.:)

[Vixen]

I KNEW that this episode was gonna be good! From the beginning when Bats interrupted Amanda Waller's shower, I knew that I was going to be on a joyride for the next 22 mins. The story had its twists & turns that kept it interesting, & on the first viewing, I didn't notice any plot holes. Might see some on the later viewing, but not right now. This might sound like a dumb question, but where have I seen Dr. Milo before? He looks familiar, but I can't place it right now. Also, who was the chick that was at the table that looked like a snake? Anyway, it seems to me that Bats may have reservations about the League's power, & it looks like the League may actually turn (or so it seems) into the Justice Lords (especially at the end when they show Luthor in front of the flag).

I remember reading in the speculation thread where someone (can't remember the poster's name, sorry) stated that Bats might leave the League & join up w/Cadmus. That idea doesn't seem so far-fetched at this point. Looking forward to where all of this might lead. 5/5.

[Merlin Missy]

*making happy little meeping noises of continuity bliss*

They mentioned the Justice Lords. A lot. *meep*


*gains composure*

I wonder if Bruce knows/has seen/was told that Clark tried to lobotomize Doomsday and if that's part of his worry.

Seven chairs at the conference table but only six chairs sitting in judgement (with Bruce the absent one). Interesting.

What would you do if you found Batman in your shower?

The conspiracy's body count keeps rising. Tea's doctor guy, Hardcastle, now Milo. I'd be getting a little nervous, myself.

Bruce has a death wish. But we knew that.

Did I say Justice Lords? *meep*


The animation in the last scene was like the art in the "Mirror, Mirror" Young Reader Book. (Which we have for the children, I swear.) Bad animator, no cookie.

*does the Continuity Dance, which you are fortunately spared watching*

*meep*

Further comments to come later.

MM:)

[MJC]

5 star episode. Although I am left to wonder why people would even consider voting for Luthor. But then again, they did vote back in...nevermind.

Great episode, I honestly can't find anything to complain about. Batman, as overused as he is, was great in this episode. Can't wait to see how this story plays out. I'm specifically wondering if Flash will have an important role in this, considering what happened in the Justice Lords Universe.

[All-Star 1.5]

That episode rocked beyond words a definite 5 stars from me if it wasn't for the weak animation I know have to give the episode a solid 4 stars. Anyway, I was wrong when I said that the Cadmus Project were going to end up being like Wolfram and Hart from Angel after seeing this episode I think they might end up being like The Intiative in some shape way or form.

Anyway, I take it that each person at the table leads a specific division of Cadmus except Waller who is over the whole operation plus one or two secret divisions. So now that Milo is gone I wonder who is going to take over his division my vote is for Cheetah.

Anyway, who was that freaky lady with the purple hair sitting in on the Cadmus meeting.

[mahoney]

So, given the aforementioned facts, the Flash very easily could have knocked the missile off course...just a bit of weak writing from an otherwise stellar episode.
Well, I was thinking Wonder Woman could have done it (she flies, she's got the strength, good at intercepting missiles), but I see your point r.e. Flash, too. Either way, yes, I agree that it would have made much more sense to contact someone already on the island. Weirdness. But, small quibble, for me. :)

[Human Shield]

I'm in the middle of watching through Batman TAS vol 2 and I've been thinking of all the odd characters they can pull from previous shows and use in JLU; I dropped my jaw when I saw Hugo Strange and Milo sitting at the table. I think Milo also referenced the research of the "Tyger Tyger" island guy. Dr. Strange thought that Bruce Wayne was Batman, he could be the reason that the Cadmus group knows about Batman.

The block on Batman villians shouldn't extend to the ones that Timm and Co. made up themselves.

Didn't like new Doomsday origin, maybe if they mentioned that it took years for him to grow after repeatingly killing him and that he adapts each time. Or if they used Superman's blood plus some alien info from Brianiac or another source. Don't think Cadmus should be advanced enough to make Superman-killing Doomsday. Liked the mindless Doomsday better from the comics too.

Loved seeing the Phantom Zone projector again. Dr. Hamilton knows that Superman's base is in Artic, I wonder what he moved out and if Cadmus can find it (Mongul did).

Looks like a story set up for Tower of Babel comic story where Batman's plans to beat each league member (to be used if they go rogue) gets out.

[WonderRaver]

I really enjoyed this ep. I finally see how Matt Wilson has been so right about the animation. This ep really had some sad scenes. The ep lost a half-star for that.

The government angle is working for me though.

Can't wait for Di and Shay in Hel...ahem! Hades.

-Matt

[Grimlock]

Does anyone know the name of the lady with the purple hair who talked about getting the armor back???

She had to have been in a previous episode of BTAS, STAS, or JL(U)...

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

[Bird Boy]

Well, I was thinking Wonder Woman could have done it (she flies, she's got the strength, good at intercepting missiles), but I see your point r.e. Flash, too. Either way, yes, I agree that it would have made much more sense to contact someone already on the island. Weirdness. But, small quibble, for me. :)

Well, Flash was kinda busy rescuing the inhabitants of the island. If he just left and WW went to help Superman, then not all the trucks and transports may have gotten away in time...

-BB

[Rabi~en~Rose]

The end with Bruce and Clark's little fight and Bruce laying down the facts was great, because he expects the worse and Clark doesn't

you know right about now I really want to see Clark Kent. not Superman but Clark how he is going about his normal life if his personalities changed or anything at all since founding the JL/JLU we only get to see him a Superman but we also know Superman needs Clark so I am wondering if some of his actions in this episode are stemming from not being Clark very often?

[Singularity]

I think Milo also referenced the research of the "Tyger Tyger" island guy. Langstrom is Man-Bat.


Dr. Strange thought that Bruce Wayne was Batman, he could be the reason that the Cadmus group knows about Batman. Honestly, I think you underestimate the Governmnet's ability to find Batman's secret identity by themselves.


The block on Batman villians shouldn't extend to the ones that Timm and Co. made up themselves. Doctor Strange isn't a original DCAU character.

[Grimlock]

I think Milo also referenced the research of the "Tyger Tyger" island guy.
Nope, he referenced Dr. Langstrom a.k.a. Man-Bat from BTAS


Dr. Strange thought that Bruce Wayne was Batman, he could be the reason that the Cadmus group knows about Batman.

Very true, i never thought about that, but you could very well be right.

[The Hulk]

You just gotta love Supes takin out Doomsday (aka Dc's Hulk:D )!! And Batman like always is the best the JLA's got.

[awh1978]

TOFT was fun, but I really think that this was the episode that should have been extended and made the season finale: a lot happened here, and a lot of things are introduced here that need further exploration.

The US citizens in the DCAU are a very forgiving bunch: in the Return they said that the vast majority of people distrusted Luthor, and now he has a significant amount of support.

The missile thing: the best choice for the job would have been GL, but I'll just assume that he was off in one of those transports and had no way of getting off in time.

I guess Hawkgirl isn't invited to the League's judge, jury, and execution room? Too bad, I think she should have been there, since she was at the roundtable.

It's always good to see Batman and Superman get in each other's face. The rest tend to defer to them, and since the last time that they really disagreed with each other without some mind control, etc. was Twilight it's overdue.

So would that missile have actually stopped Doomsday? His DNA's even more warped than Bizarro's, and kryptonite has no effect on him. The nuclear blast presumably wouldn't have taken him out, leaving an unstoppable killer. I wonder what the Cadmus plan to stop him is.

One last note: yet more Whedon-verse folks lend a voice: Armin Shimmerman was Milo, and Julie Landau was that weird looking lady.

[MachSabre]

I wonder if Batman's doubts is setting up for the formation of the Outsiders.

[Borg4of3]

Just a few episodes ago, we saw Batman sitting with GL in a public messhall, talking about relationships. A massive change for his character - no longer the untrusting loner - he was part of a group, a community.

Now, his faith has been shattered and he once again knows not who he can trust.

"You know me, Bruce,"

Does he?

[Fone Bone]

Best Justice League episode since Starcrossed. And it was even better.

So much goodness, where to start?

Okay, I get Amanda Waller now. Batman grabbing her in the shower was creepy AND wild. I was disappointed she didn't actually call Batman Bruce Wayne but it's been heavily implied that she knows.

Yay! Two Buffyverse actors! Armin Shimerman and Juliet Landau!

I was SO excited to see Dr. Strange cameo after all! (Sneaky producers! It explains how they know Batman's identity!)

And Kirk Langstrom got a mention. I have to say it's surprising he is involved in this. I would think he'd be grateful to Batman.

The only person at the table I didn't recognize was the lady with the purple hair. But I see she's in the episode preview so we'll learn more about her eventually.

Good to know Galatea will be back. And also good that Supergirl got a shoutout.

The Big Seven! Is Green Lantern going to be this season's Flash? By that I mean is he going to appear in only a couple of episode and have no dialogue?

So the Cadmus project rests on the Justice Lords. So much for the Question's theory that the conspiracy started millennia ago.

Speaking of the Question is was VERY funny how Batman is his only supporter. I guess this answers the question on whether or not Batman and Question would get along if they met.

President Luthor? WOW. Even his cameo on the TV screen was scary.

The implication that Doomsday flayed Dr. Milo is enhanced by knowing how big a Buffy fan b.t. is. I can't believe they got away with that.

Yay! Pound Puppies commercial! (I'm a goof. Deal with it.)

I don't remember Doomsday being so funny. "I'm here to kill you. Is this a bad time?" I always thought the idea of the comics Doomsday was silly but it was a great idea to make him created from Superman's DNA. Also explains how and why he rocketed to Earth in A Better World.

Speaking of A Better World I loved Flash putting together that the way to stop the Lords from being created was to have the entire league protect him. Funny.

And I can't believe Superman actually tried to lobotomize Doomsday. Lorder much?

Batman stopping that missile was probably the most intense DCAU moment since the Return of the Joker flashback. I actually wondered if they were planning on killing him off unexpectedly. (So I forgot about Batman Beyond. Did I mention I'm a goof?)

And Bruce's confrontation with Superman at the end was the kind of character development we've been craving. "You don't get to make jokes. I just took a bullet for you." Powerful stuff. Bruce staring at Luthor on TV was an ominous note to go out on. Batman was right. Sending Doomsday into the Phantom Zone without a trial was something the Lords would have done.

It's already mentioned that this storyline could potentially make Batman split from the League. I don't see a Tower of Babel story in the making (too redundant) but I can see all of the non-superpowered heroes like Batman. Question, Huntess, Green Arrow, and Wildcat siding with the government. A split from the league would explain Bruce's cold shoulder to Superman in The Call and why there was no picture of Diana in Out of the Past.

Fascinating stuff. I am officially way more excited about JLU's finale than with Teen Titans. Once and Future Thing notwithstanding Justice League has a better track record with season finales since every Titans finale so far has in some way been a cop-out (even Apprentice).

This is the best show on television. b.t. and Dwayne McDuffie should be insufferably pleased with themselves. *****.

[Conekiller]

2 things:

-Wouldn't Aquaman be pissed that they detonated a nuke in the ocean?

- Since when does Batman advocate killing over imprisonment? How is that "like a Justice Lord"?


I liked Supes "what have I done" reaction after he flung Doomsday into the volcano.

[WonderRaver]

Well, I was thinking Wonder Woman could have done it (she flies, she's got the strength, good at intercepting missiles), but I see your point r.e. Flash, too. Either way, yes, I agree that it would have made much more sense to contact someone already on the island. Weirdness. But, small quibble, for me. :)
They showed that the radios were having trouble because of electral problems. And I guess J'onn's mind link doesn't work over the long distance.

-Matt

[Caswin]

:eek:
Best... episode... EVER. SQUEE.

Let's recap:

-Arguably the best fight so far on JLU - up there with Galatea vs. Supergirl and Wildcat vs. Atomic Skull, anyway.
-Very interesting plot forming... you've really gotta wonder who to root for. Basically, you know it's not Luthor, but apart from that...
-Everything about the government plotting: Sweet.
-Very intense sequence with Batman rushing through the Watchtower. Struck me as more intense than the interception itself. >.>
-Table rotation and segue! Squee!
-And of course the final scene with Superman and Batman... well, Superman and Bruce.

Five. Out of five.

Normally I don't review like that, but... I really can't think of a better way to express the awesomeness that is this episode.

[Fone Bone]

It was a pretty exciting episode, aside from the (STILL) poor CG and otherwise mediocre animation, no real quibbles except one.

WHO IS VOTING FOR LEX LUTHOR?!?!

Weren't politicians already untrustworthy enough? The guy's an ex-con and perennial archfoe of Superman...and there are a majority of people that want him to run their country?!Tempted to make a George Bush joke but not going to.:p

[Duke]

And Kirk Langstrom got a mention. I have to say it's surprising he is involved in this. I would think he'd be grateful to Batman.
I don't think he is. They may have just "borrowed" his research.

[GameBrain]

Wow, this episode is just filled to the brim with continuity. Bravo. And I never knew 10 minutes of nonstop exposition could be so interesting. All sorts of things are tied together in a neat little bow.

Dual roundtables seemed a good way to build up drama. I was surprised to see Dr. Milo at the round table and I have no idea who the purple-haired woman was (Any info would be helpful). Very fitting that Milo, ever the disgruntled lab rat, would try to sabotage things. In fact, all of the interaction in this episode is remarkably human. It really made the episode. Not so much the Doomsday fight.

Unfortunately, I find myself agreeing with MattWilson is that the Doomsday fight wasn't all it could be. But then, what could I expect? There's no motivation for this fight. Doomsday's single-minded purpose is to destroy Superman. Superman is more concerned with the mission to evacuate the island and minimize the devastation caused by the volcano's eruption. Doomsday has prior to this has done nothing to Superman. Doomsday didn't brainwash him and turn him on the people he cares for. Doomsday didn't dangle a perfect life with wife and kid in front of Superman before snatching it away. So I think it's asking a bit much to have the same sort of dirty, knock-down, drag-out brawl that's been seen in Twilight and FtMWHE. Also Superman isn't a trained fighter like Wildcat and Black Canary, so you're not gonna see any impressive fighting moves. Doomsday seemed more a device to show how fragile the situation was between the League and normal humans.

Overall, incredible episode. One of the rare few I'd give a full score.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Kirk Langstrom! Hugo Strange! Fanboy references galore!

EDIT: You know they're going to have Hamilton pull Doomsday back out. Oh yeah, the CGI was terrible in this episode.

[Merlin Missy]

It's already mentioned that this storyline could potentially make Batman split from the League. I don't see a Tower of Babel story in the making (too redundant) but I can see all of the non-superpowered heroes like Batman. Question, Huntess, Green Arrow, and Wildcat siding with the government. A split from the league would explain Bruce's cold shoulder to Superman in The Call and why there was no picture of Diana in Out of the Past.

Huh. I don't see the non-powered heroes siding with the government, but I could see them breaking off to form their own group. Someone mentioned the Outsiders, and there's still the JSA as a possibility. That would explain the JLU lineup in "The Call." (Yes, I know, we're supposed to go "llama llama llama" and pretend that episode didn't happen. Don't care.)

Last scene again, and something FB mentioned that got me thinking. Anything we're supposed to take away from Diana following Superman out of the room and leaving Bruce alone with his thoughts? Other than the obvious "Big Three Cracking Apart At the Seams" motif, of course.

MM:)

[mahoney]

Well, Flash was kinda busy rescuing the inhabitants of the island. If he just left and WW went to help Superman, then not all the trucks and transports may have gotten away in time...

-BB
Oh, no, I just meant, one of them. If one of them went. You're right that as it turned out, WW was needed in order to help Superman while Flash finished helping the locals. But at the point the missile was noticed, Superman's status was unknown, whereas the missile was a very definite threat. And given the timing of everything, if WW had gone after the missile, Flash could have helped the rest of the locals, and then run up the mountain and hauled Superman off to safety across the water when the volcano blew. I mean, it's no big deal overall, it just struck me as a weird (possibly forced) story choice in an otherwise nicely plotted episode.

[Human Shield]

The JL must save the fate of the Earth by......


.....making political ads against Luthor (this message paid for by "Leaguers against Luthor").

[Krypton_Knight]

Suddenly, I'm wondering if ol' Hugo had anything to do with the machine that went awry and created Dr. Destiny.

Damn connections. :-)

[Batman Fan]

Originally posted by Fone Bone
Batman stopping that missile was probably the most intense DCAU moment since the Return of the Joker flashback. I actually wondered if they were planning on killing him off unexpectedly. (So I forgot about Batman Beyond. Did I mention I'm a goof?)


I too was on the edge of my seat wondering if they'd do that as well:o

[Spidey2099]

My goodness, was this a nice one! :eek:

I'm glad we're finally getting a significant amount of light shed on the gov't conspiracy.

Was this Dong Yang that animated this? The style seemed very similar to A Better World (how fitting).

I'm somewhat torn on the downplay of the Doomsday fight (and that's saying alot, because it did take up a good portion of the episode). I just seemed to be more concerned with Batman's missle problem, but there really was only so much to cover on the battle before it became nothing but traded punches. So it balanced out.

I would like to know how such a small amount of lava could hold Doomsday like that at the end, though. Was there a mix of Kryptonite in the minerals, or something?

[mahoney]

They showed that the radios were having trouble because of electral problems. And I guess J'onn's mind link doesn't work over the long distance.

-Matt
Hmm, okay, I'll buy that. It makes sense.

[Knight]

Knight, I beg to differ. First, cruise missiles like the one that was fired, do not fly that far above the water surface, as they are designed that way to help avoid radar detection. Secondly, look at the cartoon again, when Batman positioned the Javalin above the missile and pulled it against the hull, and then turned the plane to avoid hitting the isle, the Javalin's wing was able to dip into the water, so the missile could not have been ~that~ high from the water's surface. Lastly, the Flash has created whirlwinds and water spouts several stories high (in this show in fact, both in "Brave and the Bold" and later when he put out the fire when Eclipso set part of an oil refinery ablaze). So, given the aforementioned facts, the Flash very easily could have knocked the missile off course...just a bit of weak writing from an otherwise stellar episode. You are right I thought the missile was a lot higher than it was but I dont think its weak writing if the Flash was totally unaware of the situation.


I will agree the communications may have made it difficult to alert the Flash, but at the same time, if they were able to alert Wonder Woman, the Flash could have found the missile in nothing flat just by running around the isle in ever expanding circles. I dont know. Flash and Diana's responsibility was trying to get those people off the island and time was very critical. I dont really think he would have had the time to spare but anything is possible.

[Batman Fan]

Have I mentioned the dialogue in this episode was amazing, especially in Bruce and Superman's conversation, since the episode was mostly dialogue.

[Maestro]

The CGI was pretty bad, the missile chase lost a little intensity to me because of it. The rest was great though, especially Batman's scene at the end. However, it seems odd he'd be mad. What else could you do with a creature like that? At least this way you don't kill him. Should think about doing that with the Joker, I say. The fight between Superman and Doomsday was good, though there might have been some room for improvement. The fight in A Better World seemed more brutal. All in all, four stars.

Speaking of A Better World (and not to nitpick too much), didn't Doomsday say something about going around planets and fighting their greatest champions? Or am I confusing that with something else? I always do that.

[Grimlock]

TOFT was fun, but I really think that this was the episode that should have been extended and made the season finale: a lot happened here, and a lot of things are introduced here that need further exploration.

Exactly, which makes this a perfect episode in a long line of episodes to set up teh awesome 4-part season finale we're going to get.

I love how they keep moving this underlying arc along. It's only going to make the actual season finale that much better.

So i, for one, and glad this wasn't the season finale, or even the plot (i.e. having doomsday come back) for the season finale.

[Fone Bone]

Huh. I don't see the non-powered heroes siding with the government, but I could see them breaking off to form their own group. Someone mentioned the Outsiders, and there's still the JSA as a possibility.You're right of course. That would make a heck of a lot more sense.


That would explain the JLU lineup in "The Call." (Yes, I know, we're supposed to go "llama llama llama" and pretend that episode didn't happen. Don't care.)I'm pretty sure b.t. was joking about that.


Last scene again, and something FB mentioned that got me thinking. Anything we're supposed to take away from Diana following Superman out of the room and leaving Bruce alone with his thoughts? Other than the obvious "Big Three Cracking Apart At the Seams" motif, of course.

MM:)As a shipper I'd love a love triangle between the Big Three. Batman and Diana are starting to get old hat. I'd love to see them mix it up. (Superman still ends up with Lois of course).

Fone Bone, Merlin Missy's biggest fan!

[Rabi~en~Rose]

The JL must save the fate of the Earth by......


.....making political ads against Luthor (this message paid for by "Leaguers against Luthor").


best reply yet! :p

[TheScarecrow]

Great episode. Too bad it didn't have same quality of animation.

Why exactly did Bruce have a problem with Clark putting Doomsday in the Phantom Zone? It seemed like a logical solution to the problem. It's much harder for him to escape from there than just locking him up again, and I doubt Superman wanted to try and kill him (debatable if he even could). What did Bruce want them to do? Doomsday isn't some criminal from Gotham.

Luthor for Prez? Gotta be better than Bush at least.

Four stars.

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

Well if Batman does leave, there goes JLU's ratings. But then again if he does, you know he'll be back.

[Knight]

- Since when does Batman advocate killing over imprisonment? How is that "like a Justice Lord"?
How did he advocate killing? He just didnt agree with The Phantom Zone being used I would say.

Speaking of killing I have never heard the word "kill" said so many times in a ep.

[Grimlock]

And Kirk Langstrom got a mention. I have to say it's surprising he is involved in this. I would think he'd be grateful to Batman.

Said "mention" was just that his research was being used. For all we know Langstrom is working for Milo under the assumption that what he's doing is for a good cause.

[Conekiller]

How did he advocate killing? He just didnt agree with The Phantom Zone being used I would say.

Speaking of killing I have never heard the word "kill" said so many times in a ep.
how ELSE do you deal with Doomsday!?

[Paul_Cousins]

This episode rocked on so many levels. It pulled plot lines and characters from B:TAS, S:TAS, JL and JLU to created on very mature well thought out episode.

I haven't enjoyed an episode this well done since Megas XLR "Review Mirror, Mirror" Part 2. :zim:

I love the fact that both JLU and Campus both view themselves as the 'good guys', that moral grey area is so great great to play around with. :cool:

And about the animation in this episode (which was okay), the plot, script and character development more than make for it.

Of course if Lex is funding Campus, this raises a whole of more questions for later about Lex.

I give this episode a 5 out of 5 Stars.

I hope you keep up the good work Mr. Timm and company. You're doing a great job. :cool:

[Borg4of3]

Speaking of A Better World (and not to nitpick too much), didn't Doomsday say something about going around planets and fighting their greatest champions? Or am I confusing that with something else? I always do that.Doomsday just said he wanted Power, and had to see what the planet had to offer. No mention of other worlds.

Btw, while Batman has concerns about Superman, I still believe in Supes. The difference between the Doomsday fight here and the Lord battle in Better World was that Supes tried to talk to him, calm him down, and then beat him down. Only after all that did he try to lobotomize him. I also agree with the other posters on Supes final decision - it was the best they could do at that point.

I understand Bat's opinion too, tho - Joker keeps escaping, but he'd always be placed in an asylum with some small hope for better. He perhaps felt the same for Doomsday - but he wasn't there to deal with this monster.

[Metallo]

Why exactly did Bruce have a problem with Clark putting Doomsday in the Phantom Zone? It seemed like a logical solution to the problem. It's much harder for him to escape from there than just locking him up again, and I doubt Superman wanted to try and kill him (debatable if he even could). What did Bruce want them to do? Doomsday isn't some criminal from Gotham.
It is not the killing aspect that Batman had the problem with; it is the fact that the Justice League set itself up as judge and jury, carrying out the "sentence" of banishing Doomsday as if it was some higher authority that could act however it wished while rationalizing the behavior as "we are doing it for the greater good". This logic is exactly the same in terms of why the Justice Lords seized power and took over their parallel Earth. That is the connection Batman was drawing between the League's behavior and the Justice Lords'. It was this similarity in trains of thought that made Batman ask, "What would stop you from acting this way again, if, say, Luthor became president?" When Superman told Batman not to worry and that Bruce knows Clark, when Bruce replied, "Yes..I do..", I have to think Batman was thinking about Superman's tussle with Darkseid, where Superman intended to mete out justice on the master of Apocalypse as both judge and jury. And it was this thought that wore heavy on Bruce's face as the episode concluded... Just my two cents anyway.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Said "mention" was just that his research was being used. For all we know Langstrom is working for Milo under the assumption that what he's doing is for a good cause.

I thought it was implicit that Milo was following up on Langstrom's research or data or whatever, i.e. Milo obtained Langstrom's old research and continued to work from there. This wouldn't involve any actual involvement from him.

[Knight]

Have I mentioned the dialogue in this episode was amazing, especially in Bruce and Superman's conversation, since the episode was mostly dialogue.
Speaking of dialog. When Amanda Waller told Batman about what Superman said concerning the Justice Lords she said it only took "7" of you or something to that effect. But when the Lords took over it was only "6" of them. Flash was the catalyst that made them change and was never there when they became rulers of the planet.

[Casey Mack]

It is not the killing aspect that Batman had the problem with; it is the fact that the Justice League set itself up as judge and jury, carrying out the "sentence" of banishing Doomsday as if it was some higher authority that could act however it wished while rationalizing the behavior as "we are doing it for the greater good". This logic is exactly the same in terms of why the Justice Lords seized power and took over their parallel Earth. That is the connection Batman was drawing between the League's behavior and the Justice Lords'. It was this similarity in trains of thought that made Batman ask, "What would stop you from acting this way again, if, say, Luthor became president?" When Superman told Batman not to worry and that Bruce knows Clark, when Bruce replied, "Yes..I do..", I have to think Batman was thinking about Superman's tussle with Darkseid, where Superman intended to mete out justice on the master of Apocalypse as both judge and jury. And it was this thought that wore heavy on Bruce's face as the episode concluded... Just my two cents anyway.

AMAZEING EPISODE! the fact Superman has dedicated his life to helping hte people of Earth dieing in the process, and loseing alot of friends. Im just not sure why Batman would beleive that Superman who has done countless good deeds, would simply "Take over" and become a lord.

[DLM]

However, it seems odd he'd be mad. What else could you do with a creature like that? At least this way you don't kill him. Should think about doing that with the Joker, I say. To me it just seemed more like things were building to a head in Batman's (already kinda paranoid mind). That is... Phantom Zoning Doomsday wasn't THAT bad, but rather he felt vulnerable at that moment and his doubts about the League had been building. Think about it, the last time we saw him he had just seen existance torn apart and had witnessed the birth of the universe. He's gotta be a bit stressed. The League playing judge jury and sentancer to Doomsday (combined with the fact that he might have seen the burn marks on Doomsday's forehead and been reminded of Lorder Supes) could just have been the straw that broke the camel's back and caused him to lash out. Keep in mind that in the same scene we got a reminder that Bats and Supes have a bond in spite of clashing personalities. "You know me" "Yes, I do" That exchange is ominous in that Bats' response can be interpreted two ways, but keep in mind that one of those ways IS positive.

[Batman Fan]

Since I'm pretty sure Langstrom won't get involved, maybe we'll see Dr. March since he continued to make the Man-Bat serum.

[Paul_Cousins]

It is not the killing aspect that Batman had the problem with; it is the fact that the Justice League set itself up as judge and jury, carrying out the "sentence" of banishing Doomsday as if it was some higher authority that could act however it wished while rationalizing the behavior as "we are doing it for the greater good". This logic is exactly the same in terms of why the Justice Lords seized power and took over their parallel Earth. That is the connection Batman was drawing between the League's behavior and the Justice Lords'. It was this similarity in trains of thought that made Batman ask, "What would stop you from acting this way again, if, say, Luthor became president?" When Superman told Batman not to worry and that Bruce knows Clark, when Bruce replied, "Yes..I do..", I have to think Batman was thinking about Superman's tussle with Darkseid, where Superman intended to mete out justice on the master of Apocalypse as both judge and jury. And it was this thought that wore heavy on Bruce's face as the episode concluded... Just my two cents anyway.So it is not what the Justice League did that troubled Batman, it was how they did it.

By the way, that JL Judgement seen with Superman and the rest of them judging Doomsday remind me of the various Jedi Councils from Star Wars (from the movies to the comics to KotOR).

[Knight]

how ELSE do you deal with Doomsday!? Im sure he was thinking there may have been a alternative imprisoning method other than the Phantom Zone is all. Batman isnt big on killing.

[dtemplar]

The Doomsday Sanction

Role Call: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, The Flash (Even though we see Hawkgirl and Green Lantern they weren't heard).

Cadmus: Amanda Waller, Professor Emil Hamilton, Professor Hugo Strange, Professor Milo, General Eding

Villian: Doomsday

Cameos: Wildcat, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice, Vibe, Shining Knight, Hawk, Lex Luthor

Spotlight: Superman, Batman

Introduction:

LLLLLLLLLLets get ready to Rumbllllllllllllllle!

In the blue corner, originally from the planet Krypton, now residing in Metropolis. He stands at 6' 3", and weighs in at an impressive 225 lbs. He is known as the ICON, The Man of Tomorrow, The Last Son of Krypton, The Man of Steel. It's a bird, it's a plane, NO! It's Suuuuuuuperman!

And his opponent in the red corner, from a secret lab outside the Metropolis City Limits, he stands at 8', and weighs in at a whopping 1000 lbs.* He's tall, he's gray, he's a butt-ugly. Ladies & Gentlemen, it's Doooooooooooomsday!

*Height and weight on Doomsday is unknown, so I had to pretend.

Story:

In the house of Amanda Waller, we've just heard that Superman's old enemy Lex Luthor is planning to run for President of the United States. As she got into the shower. Batman said, "Get dressed." He wanted to talk to Waller about Project Cadmus, and she mentioned about the event took place during "A Better World" and the events dealing with the Justice Lords. The key 7 had their discussions at the Watchtower while Waller talked with her friends at Cadmus. Milo was sort of let go. That's when he talked to Doomsday, who recovered with his battle with the Justice Lords version of Superman telling his origin was to destroy the Man of Steel, and also wants to destroy Amanda Waller. As he released Doomsday, the creature killed Professor Milo and escaped to find Superman. Meanwhile, Superman, and a few other members try to evacuate people off an island that's about to erupt. As Superman tries to stop the volcano from erupting, Doomsday found him and gets and the fight has begun. Meanwhile, Batman and the Martian found out that a missle is approaching the island, and it carries a Kryptonite warhead. Batman uses Waller's top secret line to stop the missle. Eding launched it, and there was nothing he could do. Batman heads to a nearby Javelin and attempts to stop the warhead. He fires at the missle, but there was a magnetic shield. So he magnetized the Javelin and as he pulled off, he escaped. The Javelin exploded causing a Tsunami. Flash and the rest of the heroes took off just as it happens. Superman and Doomsday were still at it. He tried to use his heat vision but there was no use so Superman punched Doomsday and it took him inside the volcano. Wonder Woman rescued him. Meanwhile Superman asked Doomsday if Cadmus was behind it. The Martian Manhunter tried to probe him, but Doomsday's mind was altered. Superman placed Doomsday where he can harm no one, in the Phantom Zone. Superman and Wonder Woman went to see Batman as he was bandaged up. He asked Superman and wondered what will happen to Superman if Luthor becomes president. Superman said, "You still have that piece of Kryptonite you carry around." Batman though it wasn't funny. Superman thought the Justice League will never go rogue. But as Superman and Wonder Woman left, we see Batman seeing a man stand with the American Flag around him on TV. That man was Lex Luthor, Batman stared knowing there's more to this fiasco than meets the eye.

My thoughts:

1. Who was that lady in the purple hair with Waller and the rest at Cadmus?

2. If Luthor becomes President, it would spell trouble.

3. I predict we'll have an "Our Worlds at War" storyline.

4. This little battle between the Justice League and Cadmus is only the beginning. Expect more throughout the season.

5. This is the last time I'll do a Michael Buffer impression on this post.

Overall:

AWSOME! *****. See you in a few weeks.

[Fatneck]

how ELSE do you deal with Doomsday!? From how Batman reacted to Doomsday's banishment I doubt he would approve of killing. I believe he was mad at the rashness the League made in their sentencing.

[Grimlock]

I thought it was implicit that Milo was following up on Langstrom's research or data or whatever, i.e. Milo obtained Langstrom's old research and continued to work from there. This wouldn't involve any actual involvement from him.
That could also be an answer. I was simply replying to someone who said he thought Langstrom shouldn't be working on something to take out the league, when i don't think that's the case at all.

On another note, if they were talking about splicing, why didn't the guy's name come up in the episode "Tyger, Tyger"??

What was his name anyway, and isn't that really where splicing in the DCAU began??

[Batman Fan]

Originally posted by dtemplar
Cameos: Wildcat, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice, Vibe, Shining Knight, Hawk, Lex Luthor

Forgot Black Canary:D


Originally posted by Grimlock
That could also be an answer. I was simply replying to someone who said he thought Langstrom shouldn't be working on something to take out the league, when i don't think that's the case at all.

On another note, if they were talking about splicing, why didn't the guy's name come up in the episode "Tyger, Tyger"??

What was his name anyway, and isn't that really where splicing in the DCAU began??

His name is Dorian and he died in that episode.

[Metallo]

I do not see a "Tower of Babel" situation happening on JLU any time soon because Batman in JLU, unlike his comic book version, has been pretty much upfront from day one about the fact he would do what it took to neutralize a teammate if need be, as evidenced by the fact he carries around Kryptonite and the other League members know it. I mean, if Batman carries around Kryptonite to ward off the defacto leader of the League, whom everyone thinks is the "hero's hero", I do not think it would a big stretch for any of them to think that Batman would be taking the same precautions against the rest of them.

If anything, I could see Batman acting against the League if he thought it crossed the line and come into direct conflict with it if Batman felt the League had overstepped its bounds, betraying it on a level perhaps, but without the specific use of protocols.

[Borg4of3]

1. Who was that lady in the purple hair with Waller and the rest at Cadmus?That was Tala, the noted 'Queen of Evil', a villain of the Phantom Stranger. More info here. (http://polisci.uchicago.edu/~jtlevy/friends.html#Tala) Why exactly she's there is anyone's guess.


3. I predict we'll have an "Our Worlds at War" storyline. I actually see more of a Kingdom Come coming from this, but my friends all hate me because of it. Punks.

[Fone Bone]

That could also be an answer. I was simply replying to someone who said he thought Langstrom shouldn't be working on something to take out the league, when i don't think that's the case at all.

On another note, if they were talking about splicing, why didn't the guy's name come up in the episode "Tyger, Tyger"??

What was his name anyway, and isn't that really where splicing in the DCAU began??Dr. Emil Dorian. Tyger, Tyger is my favorite Batman ep.

Reeditted!:D And splicing actually began in On Leather Wings.:p

[Grimlock]

His name is Dorian and he died in that episode.
Ah, thanks for the information.

I think it would have been cool if they made a mention of him in this episode as well...just a quick nod to continuity.

Although we got so much continuity as it is, maybe i shouldn't be greedy :).

[Grimlock]

Dr. Emil Dorian. And splicing actually began in On Leather Wings.
Um, that wasn't really splicing, that was more of transforming into the creature on and off. They never called it splicing in On Leather Wings.

[Fone Bone]

His name is Dorian and he died in that episode.No he didn't. Batman took him back with him on the Bat-Plane.

[Metallo]

Cameos: Wildcat, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice, Vibe, Shining Knight, Hawk, Lex Luthor
You forgot Obsidian and Hourman (who were with Wildcat in the hangar).

[Fone Bone]

Um, that wasn't really splicing, that was more of transforming into the creature on and off. They never called it splicing in On Leather Wings.I know. I just editted my post before you posted that.

[Batman Fan]

Originally posted by Grimlock
Ah, thanks for the information.

I think it would have been cool if they made a mention of him in this episode as well...just a quick nod to continuity.

Although we got so much continuity as it is, maybe i shouldn't be greedy :).
Yeah, that would have been nice, he probably would have played an interesting role in Project Cadmus, plus I prefer him over Dr. Milo.

[Grimlock]

That was Tala, the noted 'Queen of Evil', a villain of the Phantom Stranger. More info here. (http://polisci.uchicago.edu/~jtlevy/friends.html#Tala) Why exactly she's there is anyone's guess.


According to that site:

"Tala (first appearance: The Phantom Stranger (second series) #4) is a demoness, a Queen of Evil, a mistress of Hell"

So the government is consorting with demons???

Wow, they must REALLY be desperate to stop the league who has yet to do anything bad.

[Grimlock]

I know. I just editted my post before you posted that.
Ah, so you did. My apologies.

I do think it's a cool idea to use Langstrom's research to begin research splicing, but Dorian in Tyger, Tyger just fit so well into the idea of splicing, it's a shame they didn't use/reference him.

[Batman Fan]

Originally posted by Fone Bone
No he didn't. Batman took him back with him on the Bat-Plane.
Oh, my bad, I thought he died in the lab fire, but I do remember Batman dragging the ape guy out and taking him, Dorian was probably with him too.

[Batman Fan]

Originally posted by Metallo
I do not see a "Tower of Babel" situation happening on JLU any time soon because Batman in JLU, unlike his comic book version, has been pretty much upfront from day one about the fact he would do what it took to neutralize a teammate if need be, as evidenced by the fact he carries around Kryptonite and the other League members know it. I mean, if Batman carries around Kryptonite to ward off the defacto leader of the League, whom everyone thinks is the "hero's hero", I do not think it would a big stretch for any of them to think that Batman would be taking the same precautions against the rest of them.

If anything, I could see Batman acting against the League if he thought it crossed the line and come into direct conflict with it if Batman felt the League had overstepped its bounds, betraying it on a level perhaps, but without the specific use of protocols.

If Batman keeps on carrying around all that Kryptonite, he might end up getting that cancer Luthor got!

[JWangSDC]

I thought superman using his heat vision to try to stop Doomsday was more just to show that doomsday could never be stopped the same way twice. Kind of a nod to the comics...

I was hoping it had no implications as far as superman's code of ethics is concerned.

[DLM]

Um, that wasn't really splicing, that was more of transforming into the creature on and off. They never called it splicing in On Leather Wings. Of course not, thats purely a Batman Beyond term. But I do like that we have an apparant continuous arc of scientific progress. Its a fun little nugget of continuity to have splicing be the BB time's advanced version of what Langstrom was doing way back when. It kind of parallels how technological progress often goes in the real world.. Step one: a few isolated geniuses experimenting with way out theoretical stuff Step two: The technology gets used by the government for some purpose, gets lots of funding and gets rapidly advanced. Step 3 The technology becomes publicly available and comercialized, becoming even more advanced.

In JLU we are seeing Step 2.

[screw on head]

What a dizzying episode. Sensory overload, for good or for worse.

This was so packed to the brim with stuff, I'm still reeling from it. I missed Ultimatum, so I'm a little unfamiliar with Amanda Waller, but being brought up to speed about her wasn't hard. The opening scenes with her and Batman was all very nice stuff. Visually, and I'm not sure why this caught my eye, but I was really impressed with the fading steam as the camera trucked in on Batman's face at the end of their conversation. I also liked her trembling hand clutching the phone as he left.

I liked the camera positioning and intercutting between the League's roundtable discussion and the Cadmus group's one, which animated really well (weird observation: many of the character had their right arms on the table). I liked Dr. Milo's little daydream with the high powered weapon. I wish there was a fade instead of a cut when Milo leaves the conference room and seemingly walks right over to Doomsday's holding cell. [Interesting that the hunk of molten "whatever that was" that Doomsday broke out of in 'A Better World' turned out to be a molten rocket pod instead of an asteroid; creative team must've been glad that was abstract or maybe that was planned. If Doomsay landed and broke out of something made definately of rock in 'A Better World' sat, would it have been a slightly different origin then?] Dd killing Milo was a nice touch, but I wish Milo wasn't so gung-ho about killing Waller, but rather mentioned that Superman was in that volcano on the island. It isn't unreasonable that Doomsday found Superman in the volcano, but it irked me a little that he just bursts into the volcano. There's any number of explanations how he knew to find Superman there, but that didn't really gel with me too well.

I really enjoyed the Dd and Supes fight, but I wasn't as knocked out by it as I was the A Better World one, which had the element of uber surprise in its favor. I really enjoyed the tonal molten lava look inside the volcano, really liked the staging, but couldn't for the life of me guess who boarded it. Outside the volcano on the ledge though, it looked Bob Smith to me. Inside, could've been b.t., James Tucker, or Dan Riba. Very brutal battle though, I enjoyed it and there's a lot of good there, but I'm not sure if I like it more than the 'A Better World' Dd/Supes face-off.

The interrogation with Dd on the Watchtower was neat. It was odd, the League had this weird foreboding presense to them, which was a very nice touch. Interesting palette for that scene, muted tones and the backlit costumed Superman was interesting. I don't buy Dd staying put being encased in just molten rock, but animation wise, the turnaround shot with the 'painted' rock detail was nicely done. It was cool to see the Phantom Zone projector again, which is the replica that Dr. Hamilton made in Blasts from the Past, after the original was destroyed by Jaxur and Mala, right? So Emil could very well still know the 'frequency' of the Phantom Zone, not necessarily to retrieve Doomsday (they could conceivably make more of him), but anyhoo,... very interestink. I really liked the bed ridden scene with Bruce. I wasn't sure if I liked where it was going at first, but his concerns are understandable and valid enough given some further thought. I really liked the shot of Luthor on TV. All in all a great scene.

Very nice episode. This was a strong dosage of material to be purscribed for a 22 minute container, but it worked pretty well. I think it could've used some extra minutes for wiggle room, but it was an otherwise well flowing episode. I really liked the animation. I was a little concerned about the Superman fight walking in, but everyone involved really handled it well. I have a hard time praising big blockbuster episodes like this, but it was of undeniable quality. Way to go gang :).

[Paul_Cousins]

According to that site:

"Tala (first appearance: The Phantom Stranger (second series) #4) is a demoness, a Queen of Evil, a mistress of Hell"

1. So the government is consorting with demons???

2. Wow, they must REALLY be desperate to stop the league who has yet to do anything bad. 1. Well to be fair, the JLU has been known to consort with demons and their like from time to time when the situation was desperate to call for it.

2. Like Amanda Waller said to Batman, that they ran several simulations and they lost badly to the JL everytime.

[Human Shield]

I viewed it as Doomsday weakened from eruption and standing down because the entire league was in the place. Jaxur and Mala made it out of the Phantom Zone through a black hole I think (would have liked to see them and Doomsday get pulled out now if the Cadmus group could make another projector).

[Grimlock]

If Batman keeps on carrying around all that Kryptonite, he might end up getting that cancer Luthor got!
Well, knowing that Luthor got the cancer, and seeing as Bats is always around Supes, he probably carries it in a lead case...which i would imagine would prevent the cancer.

[DLM]

I viewed it as Doomsday weakened from eruption and standing down because the entire league was in the place. Jaxur and Mala made it out of the Phantom Zone through a black hole I think (would have liked to see them and Doomsday get pulled out now if the Cadmus group could make another projector).I see Im not the only one who was thinking there could be problems down the road there.

[Knight]

If Batman keeps on carrying around all that Kryptonite, he might end up getting that cancer Luthor got!
Batman knows Kryptonite will kill normal humans with longterm exposure. He also knows that lead blocks its affects. S as long as it is kept in a lead lined compartment in his belt he is fine.

[Batman Fan]

Originally posted by Grimlock
Well, knowing that Luthor got the cancer, and seeing as Bats is always around Supes, he probably carries it in a lead case...which i would imagine would prevent the cancer.

Oh yeah, that makes sense:D

[Grimlock]

Of course not, thats purely a Batman Beyond term. But I do like that we have an apparant continuous arc of scientific progress. Its a fun little nugget of continuity to have splicing be the BB time's advanced version of what Langstrom was doing way back when. It kind of parallels how technological progress often goes in the real world.. Step one: a few isolated geniuses experimenting with way out theoretical stuff Step two: The technology gets used by the government for some purpose, gets lots of funding and gets rapidly advanced. Step 3 The technology becomes publicly available and comercialized, becoming even more advanced.

In JLU we are seeing Step 2.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I LOVE how they're tying this all the way back to BTAS stuff, it's just i saw splicing as beginning more with the stuff from Tyger, Tyger.

But i guess if they're talking about splicing now and Milo mentioned Langstrom, then it does go all the way back to him.

[Casey Mack]

Batman knows Kryptonite will kill normal humans with longterm exposure. He also knows that lead blocks its affects. S as long as it is kept in a lead lined compartment in his belt he is fine.
he also knows it could kill superman, hence its kind of like carrying a gun designed for a specific person in your pocket.

[Paul_Cousins]

I see Im not the only one who was thinking there could be problems down the road there.Who isn't...

Anyway, I find it interesting and troubling that unlike in his first appearance in the DC comics, this Doomsday is intelligent to know he is being used and he really doesn't care.

I also liked the General's three reasons for using a nuke on that island; Doomsday, Superman and the 'war on drugs'.

Plus I like how the General pointed to Amanda Waller that he could not stop the nuclear missile even if he 'wanted too'.

[I-Am That Is]

One: Loved this.

Two: It's possible that Cadmus isn't entirely aware that Tala is a demon. They probably think sh'es just a magician.

Three: OK, so Cadmus starts out small & underfunded (Volcana's project got canceled. security where they were holding the Royal Flush Gang was pathetic), then "Legacy" happens & thay start expanding, doing sims & stuff. Then the Lords show up & they get REALLY serious. Do I have this right?

[Funkatron]

Wow. That ep rocked, despite not so good animation(damn that CGI). The last scene particularly ruled. I've think we've just seen the starting point for the falling out between the League and Batman, glimpsed back in BB's "The Call".

Man, good stuff

[DLM]

One: Loved this.

Two: It's possible that Cadmus isn't entirely aware that Tala is a demon. They probably think sh'es just a magician.

Three: OK, so Cadmus starts out small & underfunded (Volcana's project got canceled. security where they were holding the Royal Flush Gang was pathetic), then "Legacy" happens & thay start expanding, doing sims & stuff. Then the Lords show up & they get REALLY serious. Do I have this right?That makes sense. I also would guess it was around "a better world" the Luthor got involved too. (Assuming he isn't a red herring in the Cadmus story arc) Still, makes me wonder WHO exactly made Doomsday. Luthor had acess to Supes DNA but it doesn't make sense for him to have been involved with Cadmus before ABW. How did Cadmus make Dd? (two capitals is reserved for the man without fear :) ) Hamilton I suppose.

[Doc Rock]

Speaking of dialog. When Amanda Waller told Batman about what Superman said concerning the Justice Lords she said it only took "7" of you or something to that effect. But when the Lords took over it was only "6" of them. Flash was the catalyst that made them change and was never there when they became rulers of the planet.IIRC, Waller was referring to 'simulations' that the government ran on trying to stop the JL if they decided to take power. I believe she said that the JL won everytime, and it only took '7' (i.e. the Big 7). Now compare that too the current roster of 40-50 heroes...:evil:

...and I may be in the minority when it comes to Supes trying to lobotomize Doomsday, but I don't see an ethical problem with it. The Justice Lords' Superman lobotomized Doomsday quickly and without any deliberation - calculated and cold-blooded. On the other hand, for the JL Supes, it was almost act of self-defense as Doomsday was in the process of beating him to death.

All in all, I think there was too much expository stuff for one 30-minute episode, and everything seemed too rushed. 3.5 stars.

P.S. - Also 'pooh' to having Bats leave Amanda Waller shaking. It's a well nown fact in the comics universe is that she is one of the few non-powered people who AREN'T thrown by Bats...:sad:

[Squall]

Wow. :eek:

This episode is proof that the careful maintenance and intelligent usage of continuity pays off huge dividends in the end! This episode is a perfect 5 out of 5, and yet another episode that has JL and JLU in the "I will have these entire series on DVD before I die!" list. :p


Of course not, thats purely a Batman Beyond term. But I do like that we have an apparant continuous arc of scientific progress. Its a fun little nugget of continuity to have splicing be the BB time's advanced version of what Langstrom was doing way back when. It kind of parallels how technological progress often goes in the real world.. Step one: a few isolated geniuses experimenting with way out theoretical stuff Step two: The technology gets used by the government for some purpose, gets lots of funding and gets rapidly advanced. Step 3 The technology becomes publicly available and comercialized, becoming even more advanced. In JLU we are seeing Step 2.
I like seeing the progression of technology too. Not only when it comes to splicing, but everything! Did everyone notice today that the floating vehicles that helped evacuate civilians from the island look a lot like the large floating vehicles seen often in Batman Beyond's time? But, they were mixed in with the technology typical of the 'present' (plain old cars, trucks, helicopters, etc.), so we get the feel that JLU's time is a transition time between JLU and Batman Beyond's time. I love it! :cool:

[dawnyoshi]

XD

Dr. Milo returned, along with Dr. Strange!

and Doomsday plot, more season storyline. Cadamus conspiracy further explored...man I'm LOVING this episode.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Holy...I mean...wow...I'm stunned.

I don't know where to begin.

We get back to the conspiracy, which is really one of the best plots in all of the DCAU. It's taken over a decade to build, and we've got splicing from Batman, Hamilton from Superman, and the Lords plot from Justice League.

And the thing is, I feel like Batman during this whole thing. The League won't go rogue because, well, it's the Justice League. But Superman is only human, we've seen him manipulated and not one but TWO alternate versions of him go too far (both involving Lex Luthor in a major way). The government just wants to protect their country (although obviously Milo and Eiling aren't saints).

We get everyone except Green Lantern and Shayera talking, which is cool. I would've liked GL to have lines, but Flash interacting with the other founders was long overdue.

What can I say about Doomsday? Awesome. I just wish the animation were better in this episode, would've made for a much cooler fight scene.

The important thing is, we get to question the League. I almost thought the episode would end with Doomsday stuck in the volcano, but they passed judgment on him! Gave me the creeps. Great Batman/Superman interaction.

Oh, and Armin Shimmerman and Juliet Landau? Dude...

[Casey Mack]

I guess we won't see Batman sitting carefree in the cafeteria haveing lunch with GL or diana anymore.

[Anon190]

Wow, being three hours later than everybody else has its disadvantages.

That was....wow. Just wow. YAY FOR CONSPIRACIES! Man, we've got looping universes, and...

This could be the universe that we saw and then they come from ANOTHER universe and HOLYEEEEEEE!!

Eheeheeeeeee, I'm not gonna be able to form a coherent sentence for over a week and OH HEY LOOK!! EEEHEEE!!

Bad CGI. Bad! No CGI treats for you!

EDIT: I forgot to do the Happy Squirmy Puppy Dance! *does the Happy Squirmy Puppy Dance*

[JThree]

If it hasn't already been mentioned, I think the mystery lady was voiced by Juliet Landeau (Drusilla on Buffy and Angel). She'll be showing up again.


Sincerely,

JThree
carolyn@dia.net

[Squall]

If you think about it, the U.S. government/World Assembly has every right to be worried. Here's a laundry list of their worries concerning the Justice League:

-Bankrolled by the rich (Batman, but he can't be alone at this point), it's totally unaccountable to the U.S. government/World Assembly
-the JL was powerful enough with a small Watchtower and 7 members, but now it's 57 members, with a much larger Watchtower II
-the Watchtower II contains a weapon of mass destruction aimed at the planet's surface
-several JL members are 'one man armies'; even more concerning, they often work together as teams
-two of the senior JL members (Superman and Hawkgirl) were party to invasions of the entire planet
-due to its unique and unsusual membership (like Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman) and its allies (like the New Gods, Dr. Fate, Green Lantern Corps), the JL has access to technology that no government does, and exclusive contacts with galactic-scale organizations (there are no embassies for Atlantis, New Genesis, or the Green Lantern Corps in Washington, D.C. or New York City)

If I were an elected official, diplomat, or military officer in charge of protecting my country/the entire planet, I'd be really worried too. And this doesn't make the U.S. government/World Assembly bad guys either. (Though I think that Cadmus, though its intentions were reasonable at first, was corrupted along the way by someone. What's that old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions...")


P.S. -- It's very rare when an alternate reality story has any bearing on the overall plots of a show, or the development of its characters, in science fiction. (They're usually just forgotten the next episode, like they never happened at all.) But, here we have one! "A Better World" has had a major impact on the modern DCAU's overall storylines and character developments... so major, we haven't even seen the half of it yet! :eek:

[Hero Supreme]

everything about this episode was fantastic except for the 50 cent CG. seriously, the cg is so out of place and distracting especially in such an outherwise flawless episode.

[EJill34]

This was really a great episode, but I must echo other's complaints about the directing and animation. This episode was practically made for D.R. Movie and Dos Santos and I think it would have been much stronger if they had worked on it. That aside, the rest of the episode was really perfect. Hopefully new episodes will start up again soon.

[Casey Mack]

If you think about it, the U.S. government/World Assembly has every right to be worried. Here's a laundry list of their worries concerning the Justice League:

-Bankrolled by a the rich (Batman, but he can't be alone at this point), it's totally unaccountable to the U.S. government/World Assembly
-the JL was powerful enough with a small Watchtower and 7 members, but now it's 57 members, with a much larger Watchtower II
-the Watchtower II contains a weapon of mass destruction aimed at the planet's surface
-several JL members are 'one man armies'; even more concerning, they often work together as teams
-two of the senior JL members (Superman and Hawkgirl) were party to invasions of the entire planet
-due to its unique and unsusual membership (like Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman) and its allies (like the New Gods, Dr. Fate, Green Lantern Corps), the JL has access to technology that no government does, and exclusive contacts with galactic-scale organizations (there are no embassies for Atlantis, New Genesis, or the Green Lantern Corps in Washington, D.C. or New York City)

If I were an elected official, diplomat, or military officer in charge of protecting my country/the entire planet, I'd be really worried too. And this doesn't make the U.S. government/World Assembly bad guys either. (Though I think that Cadmus, though its intentions were reasonable at first, was corrupted along the way by someone. What's that old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions...")

well the League has AMAZO on their side, so i dun see the goverment being a real issue since the League has AMAZO!! and the point must come up to that age old question "WHY DON'T THEY JUST CALL UP AMAZO?".

[Squall]

This was really a great episode, but I must echo other's complaints about the directing and animation. This episode was practically made for D.R. Movie and Dos Santos and I think it would have been much stronger if they had worked on it. That aside, the rest of the episode was really perfect. Hopefully new episodes will start up again soon.
It seems to me that Timm & Co. only use the CGI because they have to -- if they had the budget and manpower they did back in their days on the WB, in The Batman/Superman Adventures, I'm sure everything would be hand-drawn again. Also, I'm sure they'd have D.R. Movie and Dos Santos do every episode if they could, but when they're not available they have to go with choice #2 or choice #3 on their list.


well the League has AMAZO on their side, so i dun see the goverment being a real issue since the League has AMAZO!! and the point must come up to that age old question "WHY DON'T THEY JUST CALL UP AMAZO?".
They can call for AMAZO's help all they want, but it seems that AMAZO has no interest in getting involved. Besides, as far as we know, he's still a few light years away. :p (Not to mention, Solomon Grundy's black magic-filled corpse sucked some of AMAZO's power away!)

[Casey Mack]

It seems to me that Timm & Co. only use the CGI because they have to -- if they had the budget and manpower they did back in their days on the WB, in The Batman/Superman Adventures, I'm sure everything would be hand-drawn again. Also, I'm sure they'd have D.R. Movie and Dos Santos do every episode if they could, but when they're not available they have to go with choice #2 or choice #3 on their list.


They can call for AMAZO's help all they want, but it seems that AMAZO has no interest in getting involved. Besides, as far as we know, he's still a few light years away. :p (Not to mention, Solomon Grundy's black magic-filled corpse sucked some of AMAZO's power away!)
Amazo had enough energy to teleport across the cosmos did he not, and im sure Amazo will get involved if people start dieing. So i see no problem at all since they[the league] have AMAZO! kind of makes you think whats the point if they have Amazo?

[EJill34]

It seems to me that Timm & Co. only use the CGI because they have to -- if they had the budget and manpower they did back in their days on the WB, in The Batman/Superman Adventures, I'm sure everything would be hand-drawn again. Also, I'm sure they'd have D.R. Movie and Dos Santos do every episode if they could, but when they're not available they have to go with choice #2 or choice #3 on their list.
Well, I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I would have rather seen "The Cat and the Canary" be less-than-stellar if it meant this episode was going to look amazing. The Doomsday/Superman fight should have been up there with the Darkseid/Superman fights in terms of raw anger and brute force, but it was just so generic. Normally I'm not so harsh, but they always step up the directing and animation for the major episodes and unfortunately, that wasn't the case here.

[Funkatron]

Someone needs to find some deusexmachina dust to finally rid the league of that AMAZO guy.

[Grimlock]

well the League has AMAZO on their side, so i dun see the goverment being a real issue since the League has AMAZO!! and the point must come up to that age old question "WHY DON'T THEY JUST CALL UP AMAZO?".
Because in Wake The Dead he teleported himself away, and probably won't come back until the producers want to do another episode about him?

[Squall]

Amazo had enough energy to teleport across the cosmos did he not, and im sure Amazo will get involved if people start dieing. So i see no problem at all since they[the league] have AMAZO! kind of makes you think whats the point if they have Amazo?
Yeah, AMAZO is still quite powerful. :p

Now that I think about it, having AMAZO associated with the Justice League as an ally must be the nail in the coffin as far as the U.S. government/World Assembly is concerned. With AMAZO, they've gone from just being concerned to scared out of their wits!

Besides the core JL, I'd love to see what the U.S. government/World Assembly has as backup defense plans in case Aquaman (and thus Atlantis), or Dr. Fate & AMAZO ever decided to become true threats...

[Casey Mack]

Someone needs to find some deusexmachina dust to finally rid the league of that AMAZO guy.
Bruce timm and company have a problem on thier hands now, Amazo is alive and seems he is ready to help the league when needed like he did in "Wake he dead".

[Grimlock]

Amazo had enough energy to teleport across the cosmos did he not, and im sure Amazo will get involved if people start dieing. So i see no problem at all since they[the league] have AMAZO! kind of makes you think whats the point if they have Amazo?
How is Amazo going to know about any of this if he's light years away?

[Casey Mack]

How is Amazo going to know about any of this if he's light years away?

Because he is AMAZO god darnit! he can shift planets into different dimensions, im pretty sure he is aware of the situation.

[Paul_Cousins]

Wow. :eek:

This episode is proof that the careful maintenance and intelligent usage of continuity pays off huge dividends in the end! This episode is a perfect 5 out of 5, and yet another episode that has JL and JLU in the "I will have these entire series on DVD before I die!" list. :pAmen to that. :D


1. If I were an elected official, diplomat, or military officer in charge of protecting my country/the entire planet, I'd be really worried too. And this doesn't make the U.S. government/World Assembly bad guys either. (Though I think that Cadmus, though its intentions were reasonable at first, was corrupted along the way by someone. What's that old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions...")


2. P.S. -- It's very rare when an alternate reality story has any bearing on the overall plots of a show, or the development of its characters, in science fiction. (They're usually just forgotten the next episode, like they never happened at all.) But, here we have one! "A Better World" has had a major impact on the modern DCAU's overall storylines and character developments... so major, we haven't even seen the half of it yet! :eek:1. I think Amanda Waller made a good case for her side in her conversation with Batman right after the JLU intro. :cool:

2. Very few things are forgotten in the DCAU, that's why we love it so. :zim:

[DLM]

Bruce timm and company have a problem on thier hands now, Amazo is alive and seems he is ready to help the league when needed like he did in "Wake he dead".Ahhh, the AMAZO question. Or should we just start calling him ALBATROSS? Then again, think about it. Who set AMAZO on his path to enlightenment, who is his father figure? And who are we now worried about being involved in Cadmus (officially)?:eek:
And sure, Dr Fate is presumably important to AMAZO too, but how loyal is HE to the League?
Is AMAZO's allegiance that certain?

[Casey Mack]

Ahhh, the AMAZO question. Or should we just start calling him ALBATROSS? Then again, think about it. Who set AMAZO on his path to enlightenment, who is his father figure? And who are we now worried about being involved in Cadmus (officially)?:eek:
And sure, Dr Fate is presumably important to AMAZO too, but how loyal is HE to the League?

DR.fate is in cadmus? Fate is one of Superman closets friends and a wizard, i dought he would or could team up with Amanda waller to kill his friends. if you mean luthor Amazo still hates him, and either way you dice it Amazo can take them all out. eithier the league or the goverment who ever hes with it does not matter. and if you think hes with Luthor whats the point of it, since AMAZO is a god and will end the League with a thought.

[warmachine04]

+ This JLU episode will be in the minds of viewers for years to come.
+ A solid story with many good surprises and some nice bits of humor.
+ Appearance of the original seven members and some old characters.
+ Superman Vs. Doomsday: Best fight sequence of the year. Very Impressed.
+ Lots of excitement, tension and great animation.

[Squall]

Ahhh, the AMAZO question. Or should we just start calling him ALBATROSS? Then again, think about it. Who set AMAZO on his path to enlightenment, who is his father figure? And who are we now worried about being involved in Cadmus (officially)? :eek: And sure, Dr Fate is presumably important to AMAZO too, but how loyal is HE to the League?
Near Apocalypse of '09 -- directions: put all ingredients into pot, stir slowly until mixture explodes! :p (I'm sure Ra's Al Guhl was a side story; one of many characters trying to take advantage of the situation. This situation is so big that even a Batman/Ra's Al Guhl fight is an afterthought... thus making the appearance of Ra's Al Guhl unneccessary (as his is one of many 'side stories' during the event). Viola!)

[DLM]

DR.fate is in cadmus? Fate is one of Superman closets friends and a wizard, i dought he would or could team up with Amanda waller to kill his friends. if you mean luthor Amazo still hates him, and either way you dice it Amazo can take them all out. eithier the league or the goverment who ever hes with it does not matter. and if you think hes with Luthor whats the point of it, since AMAZO is a god and will end the League with a thought.It was more me pointing out that AMAZO may not want to take a side. After all, maybe this conflict between metahumans and humans is part of the great cycle he seems to have commited himself to witnessing at the end of the Return. Similarily, Fate would probably take a "hands off" approach. And Im not so sure AMAZO still hates Luthor.

[Grimlock]

Someone needs to find some deusexmachina dust to finally rid the league of that AMAZO guy.
Hopefully you're being sarcastic...but if not, they already did just that in Wake The Dead.

[EJill34]

After watching this episode, I was left hoping that Dong Yang would never animate another JLU episode. I know that this post would never make a difference, but I'm begging you b.t., just let Dong Woo and D.R. Movie animate all the episodes. The latter half of tonight's show looked like it was done by the same person(s) who did "The Ties That Bind" and it was of even poorer quality than that one. Luckily most of the important episodes last season were treated to wonderful D.R. Movie animation, but after "The Doomsday Sanction" I don't think I can take another poorly animated episode, especially after seeing the potential that this show has reached visually.

I really did love the episode, but I just wish the visual aspect could have matched the story.

[Casey Mack]

It was more me pointing out that AMAZO may not want to take a side. After all, maybe this conflict between metahumans and humans is part of the great cycle he seems to have commited himself to witnessing at the end of the Return. Similarily, Fate would probably take a "hands off" approach. And Im not so sure he hates Luthor.
so your saying Lord AMAZO is the "anti-life equation" that Darkseid has been searching for? Also Amazo didn't just "Witness" the events of "Wake the dead" he wanted to stop Grundy from hurting people.

[DLM]

so your saying Lord AMAZO is the "anti-life equation" that Darkseid has been searching for? Also Amazo didn't just "Witness" the events of "Wake the dead" he wanted to stop Grundy from hurting people.Well, I'll leave any cross-pollination between AMAZO and the Darkseid plots to the fertile imagination of b.t.et.al. Dunno about that. As far as his involvement in WtD is concerned? An experiment in playing superhero, like all these quaint people he has been observing. Didn't go so well, best to stay out of such things from now on. :)

[Casey Mack]

Well, I'll leave any cross-pollination between AMAZO and the Darkseid plots to the fertile imagination of b.t.et.al. Dunno about that. As far as his involvement in WtD is concerned? An experiment in playing superhero, like all these quaint people he has been observing. Didn't go so well, best to stay out of such things from now on. :)

good point, if Amazo is this "Anti-life equation" it could also mean.............oh no but it can't be......

[Doomsday]

Doomsday = almost pefect episode. Ok going to go into what I don't like first then do like.
-Animation was good, but not at the best. It was thank God not nearly as bad as last week.
-CG sucks like always.
-The Watchtower wasn't attacked in this episode. Wonder what episode those scenes were part of.
+DOOMSDAY at his best.
+Batman villains, really surpise to see them with the Batman villian ban.
+Justice Lord talk.
+FLASH.
+DEATH.
+Batman having great lines.
+Everything else.

Did anyone wonder why Batman was looking at Luthor so strangly at the end. Maybe he's a clone... :eek: So maybe the league will get attack later so the gov. can get Doomsday back. I hope the 4 part season finale will have animation at the best. This season arc is starting to get really good. It's been awhile but I'm giving this episode 5 stars, great stuff.

Oh and dibs on every Doomsday's picture for a new avatar. :D

[Grimlock]

Because he is AMAZO god darnit! he can shift planets into different dimensions, im pretty sure he is aware of the situation.
Amazo could move planets *consciously*. That doesn't mean he pays attention to every single thing that's going on everywhere he's been. And if he isn't paying attention, then he wouldn't know.

[Paul_Cousins]

Near Apocalypse of '09 -- directions: put all ingredients into pot, stir slowly until mixture explodes! :pWell considering that this episode showed the early parts of a presidential campaign going on, with Lex as one of the candidates, I am going to guess that in the DCAU timeline the current JLU episode is some time in early 2008; with 2009 coming up.

[Human Shield]

All it took has a bomb to kill Lois for Superman to go rogue in one version of himself.

I want to see Amazo get destroyed by Cadmus's magic group, send the damn android to hell and see what he can do. Amazo is too damn powerful, some random human created the most powerful weapon in the universe... BS.

[DLM]

Well considering that this episode showed the early parts of a presidential campaign going on, with Lex as one of the candidates, I am going to guess that in the DCAU timeline the current JLU episode is some time in early 2008; with 2009 coming up.WHOA!!!!!! EXCELLENT POINT!!!!!!!
:eek:
:eek:
:eek:

[Casey Mack]

Well considering that this episode showed the early parts of a presidential campaign going on, with Lex as one of the candidates, I am going to guess that in the DCAU timeline the current JLU episode is some time in early 2008; with 2009 coming up.
don't asume dates in JLU Bruce timm has made it clear it could be any time even the 90s!

[Dens Maris]

Almost five stars. The qualm? Even for one who is as blind to animation quibbles as I am (I didn't notice anything wrong with Ties That Bind), I could tell something was off in this episode. Waaay off. Bruce looking so bulky at the end and the overuse of CGI got extremely tiring. Santos really should have been called in for the fight scenes, too. As has been said, the central fight in this episode could have been legendary- and while The Cat and The Canary was great for its fight scenes, I think Santos would have leapt at the opportunity to direct Superman vs. Doomsday. I would paid good money to see that one.

But while it would seem that's a heavy concern, in the light of how fantastic this episode was, I'm willing to forgive it. Just this once. Because "The Doomsday Sanction" is that good.

I'm angry. This is the oddest tangent to go on, but it's been building in my mind ever since "Ultimatum" and "Fearful Symmetry." One character has left me guessing and groping in the dark with his inconsistent actions, tones, and references. But if I take anything from DS, it's going to be my own personal anger at this one character. This episode cemented exactly why I want to see this guy pay:

Professor Hamilton.

When I think back to "Legacy", I remember Hamilton's fierce devotion to his country- which is what turned him off on Superman on a personal level. I try to understand, and I think I know where he's coming from. And yet when I think of what this son of a ----- has been up to, I can hardly believe this is the same man that met Superman with a kind and amicable smile so many times in the series. Now he's playing in domains where he has absolutely no business. Scraping cells off Supergirl and Superman at their vulnerable moments? Doing a terminal rush job on the Ultimen's cells? Having a hand in the creation of DOOMSDAY? This is his protection? This is his "patriotism"? The hell it is. This is getting his personal shots in. He doesn't want protection. He wants payback. In fact, I wonder if it was really all Waller who subjected Doomsday to that Clockwork Orange-esque Superman screen. Actually, I don't wonder. If Hamilton wants security, he wants it in Kryptonian blood. Anyone else catch that almost menacing look he adopted at the meeting with Waller and the other heads? When I look at that filthy look and all the things he's done, it points to one realization I still can't believe would be centered around Professor Hamilton: he's past forgiveness. He hates Superman. And for him to create Doomsday suggests he wants to go to the next step.

Oh, maybe Hamilton was just the cell guy, maybe Waller is just milking him like she milked the Ultimen out of him. Sure, those are legitimate objections. But Dr. Milo's revelations about Doomsday don't have me sold on them. I think Hamilton may be just a tier shy of Luthor for Superman's most dangerous enemy. Past Darkseid, because with Darkseid it's a two-way hate. Superman doesn't hate Hamilton, far from it. I can't say the reverse is true. And it galls me that a friendship could be warped this far all because of a choice one man made between being a patriot and being a friend.

The other elements of the episode were hardly forgettable; even if Green Lantern and Shayera didn't have a single line (did they?), seeing the Original Seven again was quite a treat. It also reinforces the Justice Lord parallel we had going on, and on that note, maybe the silence from most of them isn't so much a mistake. Shayera's silence we can explain, but Green Lantern's back from a future where the League proved useless, impotent, a failure. Sure, he can explain it away for himself with Chronos, but if the Justice Lords are anything to go on, it's a safe bet that parallel universes and future timelines are not wholly lies or distortions. There are elements of truth in them. Maybe Green Lantern and Batman have soured from that experience, taken time to brood. It makes me wonder how Wonder Woman would have appeared in this episode, had she retained her memories of what happened in TOAFT Pt. 2. As it is, we see a pretty silent John Stewart and a very harsh Batman at the end of the episode. Maybe they're realizing some of these shards of truth prove inevitable.

I think I liked the Lord Superman vs. Doomsday fight better, that one just seemed far more vicious...but as has been said, that one had the element of surprise for it. This one, I had a feeling Supes was going to take care of DD all by himself. I liked that much of it, though, that Superman beat the Walking Plot Device in a battle of brute strength- even if, like everyone's noticed, he actually tried to lobotomize Doomsday again. That had me doing a double-take at the screen. Granted, it could have been a touch of desperation, but Superman struck me as pretty casual right there. Maybe it was just Newbern's voice acting, I dunno.

Bonus points for that intense, if not graphically lacking, chase with Batman doing everything he can to get the nuke out of the way. It was still a jolt to see the thing actually go off and nearly choke the volcano with shock-induced waves. Makes you wonder if we're seeing the future, there; if Cadmus was desperate enough...

The end scene is a fantastic one, and like I said, I forgive the animation (they shrunk Bruce's head but they got Superman's "S" right, huh) just to see the sparks fly between the two biggest reasons I tune into the show. I see Batman's point, but despite how Superman treated Doomsday in this episode, going for the lobotomy and sending him off to the Phantom Zone after it's clear DD won't talk, I think I'd give the Man of Steel the benefit of the doubt. I wonder if Batman is like the JL's media- for all their good deeds, countless and truly heroic, if one of them does the slightest thing wrong, he's all over it. Particularly when it's Superman, the veritable emblem of the League. But you have to wonder, was Superman wrong here? Doomsday said Superman would regret not killing him. The look on Superman's face said otherwise.

Plus...maybe it's not Superman that Batman's really concerned with. All right, Superman sent Doomsday to the Phantom Zone, a cheerless space of red and black where things float around in limbo ad infinitum. When we last saw Batman he had just wiped an entire future from ever coming to exist, trapped a man in a literal time loop, stopped his life from ever advancing.

Just how different is that? And if their methods aren't different, how different are they?

Maybe it's not the superpowered ones that have Batman so worried.

4.5 stars. Best I've seen in a long time.

[Squall]

Could someone please tell me what happened in the intro before the teaser (the short scene followed by the title sequence)? I got to see part of it -- my VCR started recording the moment Batman handed Amanda Waller a towel -- but what happened in the minute or two before then?

[Ben]

I'm just getting back into JLU, I've only seen about three episodes of it believe it or not.

I loved this epsiode more for what it foreshadowed than what it depicted. Batman is by far their best character and I'm glad they seem to be planning on exploiting the Superman-Batman friction more. And Luthor as the arc's villain is a welcome return to form as well. Him running for President is going to make a great conflict. This is what good franchise-storytelling is all about: using the archetypes and characters your audience knows best in new and interesting ways that reflect real life. I can't wait to see the rest.

I shared some of the visual quibbles, but my biggest problem was a design one: when they first showed the hospital room in the end I thought, "Who is that guy?" until they called him "Bruce." They made his alter-ego identity look exactly like every other civilian in the show! What happened to that sharp, unforgiving jawline I remember from B:TAS? Now he just looks really blah.

[Casey Mack]

Could someone please tell me what happened in the intro before the teaser (the short scene followed by the title sequence)? I got to see part of it -- my VCR started recording the moment Batman handed Amanda Waller a towel -- but what happened in the minute or two before then?
waller woke up in her bed, looked at her security cameras and then went downstairs, and looked at a commercial saying Luthor is running for president. Then she went to take a shower, oh see also called a meeting with her team before Batman showed up.

[Alex Weitzman]

My thoughts on The Doomsday Sanction:

Fearful Symmetry was a tease, a passing hint at what forces may yet come. Initiation silently posed the question, "Do you think you Leaguers can really control all this?", but was unable to really explore it. Here, these two parallel conflicts have crashed face-first into each other, and it's glorious. Whatever surprises may yet come our way in JLU, we will at least always have The Doomsday Sanction by which to use as one of the finest single cinematic essays about one of the most basic and important quandries inherently posed by the League itself: have they gone in the right direction, or the wrong one?

It helps that the episode itself is so jam-packed with stuff that it has a wildly breathless quality to it, consistently screwing the ratchet tighter on our tensions as chilling twist after chilling twist bloom. The episode deals in very heady issues (politics, morals, destiny), and these could very well have been boring without the visceral shot-in-the-arm of the episode's action and drive. The one thing that, in retrospect, bothered me a little about the episode was Bruce's sudden shift to absolute grumpiness in the end, despite spending most of the episode defending the League very strongly. Dramatically, it was sort of blunt. And yet, it did not even register to me after what had gone before. Emotions were running high and the stakes were running even higher. Batman, it seems, was a volcano of his own, and while there seemed to be a lot more warning with the real volcano's eruption, some can go off in a split-second. By the way, kudos to TimmCo for the wonderful metaphoric setup of the episode, with the volcano mirroring the rising furor between Cadmus and the League, with innocent and uninvolved people's lives at stake.

It is easy to be of two minds about the serious questions that Sanction raises. In fact, it's one of the most ambiguous approaches to "the superhero question" that I've ever seen TimmCo attempt. On one side, I have never seen so much evidence to be frightened of the League before. Wonder Woman may be known for her flaring temper, but it still sent a shiver up my spine to hear her yelling at Flash, almost like he was in the way. Contrast that, of course, with the Flash's point about the Flash-less Lords going rogue. Amanda Waller, seemingly so evil before, presented an amazingly credible argument and actually started making me like her - before she even confronted General Eding about the nuke. Superman's eye beams were a sudden shock and practically heartbreaking to watch him use, given the context of where we've seen that before.

And then, of course, there's the question of the Phantom Zone. While I personally cannot see how Doomsday could have been dealt with in any other fashion, the mere idea that they built that room with those throne-like chairs is perhaps the scariest thing I've ever seen in the Watchtower. Trials don't suit superheroes, and that's because the whole vigilante concept doesn't stand up under that much scrutiny. If Wonder Woman had simply thrown Supes the Phantom Zone projector in the heat of battle and sent Doomsday off before he could pounce on him, we'd probably accept it without question. Because that's fighting. This wasn't, and it causes us to reconsider things we dared not reconsider.

And yet, despite all of that, I actually officially come down on the other side. That's right - I'm siding against Batman, or more accurately, with Superman. Like I said, this episode is ambiguous, not frightening. There may be a lot of justifiable doubts that can be raised from The Doomsday Sanction, but there's just as much deep-seated proof that the JLU is still where our sympathies deserve to lie, and after thinking about it for a bit, I've concluded that Sanction convinces me more that the Leaguers are not the Lorders. There may be a lot of possible roads ahead of them that could take them on a Lorder path, but based on what I saw in Sanction coupled with what we see in A Better World, I think there's ample evidence that this League will stay the course of righteousness. Especially as compared to Cadmus.

After all, consider the differences in the basis of their formation. Cadmus is a reactionary group, formed in response to the League; not only that, it clearly presents itself as an American unit, based solely on protection from the League for the USA. (Although, given the presences of Hades and the Annihilator in recent previews, might there be some Greek dieties behind all this? Did Batman's bathroom discussion with Waller carry a North Kasnia/South Kasnia air to it, or am I crazy?) The League bears no political distinctions. This may make it untrustworthy to folks like Eding, who think in terms of national good vs. evil, but clearly the League is better for being border-blind. After all, who was doing the civilian evacuating at the site of the volcano - Cadmus or the League? Eding's cold dismissal of the consequences of his nuke may have shocked Waller, but he's also being true to Cadmus and America; they're not us, so there's no reason to cry about it.

Best of all, remember that Superman, mid-Doomsday-fight, insisted to Wonder Woman that saving the civilians was far more important than helping him. Here, we see why Superman has always been a great hero. He would gladly give his life in service of saving other lives. The Lorder Superman, if you think about it, was the absolute opposite. With him, it had to be about himself, and only himself. He barely took his fellow Lorders' opinions into account, and certainly not the people's. The people suffered under his rule, because he had his own ideas about what rule was. Our Superman only cared about making sure the people remained alive. Even A Better World confirms this: Luthor poses far less of a threat to the people than he does to the League. He was making a power disrupter, not a nuclear bomb. Lorder Superman sees Luthor as a threat to himself, not humanity, and our Superman put his own life at risk by freeing him so that he could take Lorder Superman down. (Recall that Luthor was tempted to do the same to Leaguer Superman after all was said and done.) That's why Batman was being unfair in the last scene of Sanction; he may have "taken a bullet" for Superman, but Superman was planning on taking a bullet for everyone else. It's self-sacrifice that makes a hero, and both Batman and Superman have it in spades, even if their personalities are so diametrically different that they naturally cause friction like in Sanction. Until I see reason otherwise, I trust Superman and the League more than Batman does. I'll root for them until they give me a cause not to.

[DLM]

Im going to admit for the record that I didn't notice the animation flaws. In my defence, I have said before that I grade episodes pretty much entirely on the writing. Plot, characterization and scripting mean alot more to me than arcane stuff like "model sheets" and "storyboarding". Still, I like to think I can spot REALLY bad animation when its on the screen. I did notice a few obviously CG moments but they didn't look that necessarily BAD to me, just a bit incongruous. Can someone do me a favor and point out, just for my own edifcation, where some of the really bad animation moments in this episode were cause I honestly was too wrapped up in the story to tell.

[BlackoutCreature]

Wow, this was definately the best episode of JLU by a good margin. They need more shows like this.

It was cool to see Dr. Milo and Hugo Strange again (as well as the Dr. Langstrom reference). Im thinking who can replace Milo in Cadmus now that he's dead - Dr. Emile Dorian (from B:TAS "Tyger, Tyger"), or maybe a young Dr. Cuvier (how's that for a continuity reference?). Im hoping we can see some more obscure animated Batman villains in time. Red Claw or Kyodai Ken would be good choices. Maybe they can find a place for Rupert Thorne or Roland Daggett?

Speaking of which, the Suicide Squad has been referenced to in the past. Im thinking of the perfect field leader for an animated Suicide Squad - Andrea Beaumont, The Phantasm. Now how's that for a fan-gasm?

Also i think too many people r accepting the JLU's belief that Luthor is behind everything. It just seems way too easy for it to be the answer. Here's my idea, Darkseid is missing on Apokalips, where do u think he went? Operating under the cover of the reclusive Billionaire Bates, he's funding Cadmus, and manipulating both sides against each other. The JLU vs. the worlds governments, both sides come out losers, he walks in and picks up the pieces.

[MJC]

Also i think too many people r accepting the JLU's belief that Luthor is behind everything. It just seems way too easy for it to be the answer. Here's my idea, Darkseid is missing on Apokalips, where do u think he went? Operating under the cover of the reclusive Billionaire Bates, he's funding Cadmus, and manipulating both sides against each other. The JLU vs. the worlds governments, both sides come out losers, he walks in the picks up the pieces.

God, I hope it's not Darkseid. Let the guy stay dead. :shrug:

Honestly, I hope they don't take the "one villain behind everything" route. It's much more interesting that there really isn't an explicit "bad guy" at this point (other than Doomsday). The fact that both sides perceive themselves as "good" makes the story that much better. I don't like the idea of any specific person being responsible for the situation. Finding out Darkseid or somebody was behind everything would cheapen it, IMO.

[Alex Weitzman]

Maybe they can find a place for Rupert Thorne?
I hope they don't. John Vernon passed away, so if it's not already in the pipeline, I sure as hell don't want them recasting.

[DLM]

Also i think too many people r accepting the JLU's belief that Luthor is behind everything. It just seems way too easy for it to be the answer. Here's my idea, Darkseid is missing on Apokalips, where do u think he went? Operating under the cover of the reclusive Billionaire Bates, he's funding Cadmus, and manipulating both sides against each other. The JLU vs. the worlds governments, both sides come out losers, he walks in and picks up the pieces.Quite true... as I've said before it wouldn't suprise me if Luthor was a red herring.

[Grimlock]

I'm just getting back into JLU, I've only seen about three episodes of it believe it or not.

I loved this epsiode more for what it foreshadowed than what it depicted. Batman is by far their best character and I'm glad they seem to be planning on exploiting the Superman-Batman friction more. And Luthor as the arc's villain is a welcome return to form as well. Him running for President is going to make a great conflict. This is what good franchise-storytelling is all about: using the archetypes and characters your audience knows best in new and interesting ways that reflect real life. I can't wait to see the rest.

I shared some of the visual quibbles, but my biggest problem was a design one: when they first showed the hospital room in the end I thought, "Who is that guy?" until they called him "Bruce." They made his alter-ego identity look exactly like every other civilian in the show! What happened to that sharp, unforgiving jawline I remember from B:TAS? Now he just looks really blah.
Agreed on everything you said, especially, "This is what good franchise-storytelling is all about: using the archetypes and characters your audience knows best in new and interesting ways that reflect real life."

And yeah, Bruce looked like he had a receeding hairline i thought.

[The Overlord]

Almost five stars. The qualm? Even for one who is as blind to animation quibbles as I am (I didn't notice anything wrong with Ties That Bind), I could tell something was off in this episode. Waaay off. Bruce looking so bulky at the end and the overuse of CGI got extremely tiring. Santos really should have been called in for the fight scenes, too. As has been said, the central fight in this episode could have been legendary- and while The Cat and The Canary was great for its fight scenes, I think Santos would have leapt at the opportunity to direct Superman vs. Doomsday. I would paid good money to see that one.

But while it would seem that's a heavy concern, in the light of how fantastic this episode was, I'm willing to forgive it. Just this once. Because "The Doomsday Sanction" is that good.

I'm angry. This is the oddest tangent to go on, but it's been building in my mind ever since "Ultimatum" and "Fearful Symmetry." One character has left me guessing and groping in the dark with his inconsistent actions, tones, and references. But if I take anything from DS, it's going to be my own personal anger at this one character. This episode cemented exactly why I want to see this guy pay:

Professor Hamilton.

When I think back to "Legacy", I remember Hamilton's fierce devotion to his country- which is what turned him off on Superman on a personal level. I try to understand, and I think I know where he's coming from. And yet when I think of what this son of a ----- has been up to, I can hardly believe this is the same man that met Superman with a kind and amicable smile so many times in the series. Now he's playing in domains where he has absolutely no business. Scraping cells off Supergirl and Superman at their vulnerable moments? Doing a terminal rush job on the Ultimen's cells? Having a hand in the creation of DOOMSDAY? This is his protection? This is his "patriotism"? The hell it is. This is getting his personal shots in. He doesn't want protection. He wants payback. In fact, I wonder if it was really all Waller who subjected Doomsday to that Clockwork Orange-esque Superman screen. Actually, I don't wonder. If Hamilton wants security, he wants it in Kryptonian blood. Anyone else catch that almost menacing look he adopted at the meeting with Waller and the other heads? When I look at that filthy look and all the things he's done, it points to one realization I still can't believe would be centered around Professor Hamilton: he's past forgiveness. He hates Superman. And for him to create Doomsday suggests he wants to go to the next step.

Oh, maybe Hamilton was just the cell guy, maybe Waller is just milking him like she milked the Ultimen out of him. Sure, those are legitimate objections. But Dr. Milo's revelations about Doomsday don't have me sold on them. I think Hamilton may be just a tier shy of Luthor for Superman's most dangerous enemy. Past Darkseid, because with Darkseid it's a two-way hate. Superman doesn't hate Hamilton, far from it. I can't say the reverse is true. And it galls me that a friendship could be warped this far all because of a choice one man made between being a patriot and being a friend.

The other elements of the episode were hardly forgettable; even if Green Lantern and Shayera didn't have a single line (did they?), seeing the Original Seven again was quite a treat. It also reinforces the Justice Lord parallel we had going on, and on that note, maybe the silence from most of them isn't so much a mistake. Shayera's silence we can explain, but Green Lantern's back from a future where the League proved useless, impotent, a failure. Sure, he can explain it away for himself with Chronos, but if the Justice Lords are anything to go on, it's a safe bet that parallel universes and future timelines are not wholly lies or distortions. There are elements of truth in them. Maybe Green Lantern and Batman have soured from that experience, taken time to brood. It makes me wonder how Wonder Woman would have appeared in this episode, had she retained her memories of what happened in TOAFT Pt. 2. As it is, we see a pretty silent John Stewart and a very harsh Batman at the end of the episode. Maybe they're realizing some of these shards of truth prove inevitable.

I think I liked the Lord Superman vs. Doomsday fight better, that one just seemed far more vicious...but as has been said, that one had the element of surprise for it. This one, I had a feeling Supes was going to take care of DD all by himself. I liked that much of it, though, that Superman beat the Walking Plot Device in a battle of brute strength- even if, like everyone's noticed, he actually tried to lobotomize Doomsday again. That had me doing a double-take at the screen. Granted, it could have been a touch of desperation, but Superman struck me as pretty casual right there. Maybe it was just Newbern's voice acting, I dunno.

Bonus points for that intense, if not graphically lacking, chase with Batman doing everything he can to get the nuke out of the way. It was still a jolt to see the thing actually go off and nearly choke the volcano with shock-induced waves. Makes you wonder if we're seeing the future, there; if Cadmus was desperate enough...

The end scene is a fantastic one, and like I said, I forgive the animation (they shrunk Bruce's head but they got Superman's "S" right, huh) just to see the sparks fly between the two biggest reasons I tune into the show. I see Batman's point, but despite how Superman treated Doomsday in this episode, going for the lobotomy and sending him off to the Phantom Zone after it's clear DD won't talk, I think I'd give the Man of Steel the benefit of the doubt. I wonder if Batman is like the JL's media- for all their good deeds, countless and truly heroic, if one of them does the slightest thing wrong, he's all over it. Particularly when it's Superman, the veritable emblem of the League. But you have to wonder, was Superman wrong here? Doomsday said Superman would regret not killing him. The look on Superman's face said otherwise.

Plus...maybe it's not Superman that Batman's really concerned with. All right, Superman sent Doomsday to the Phantom Zone, a cheerless space of red and black where things float around in limbo ad infinitum. When we last saw Batman he had just wiped an entire future from ever coming to exist, trapped a man in a literal time loop, stopped his life from ever advancing.

Just how different is that? And if their methods aren't different, how different are they?

Maybe it's not the superpowered ones that have Batman so worried.

4.5 stars. Best I've seen in a long time.
Perhaps they are setting Hamilton upfor the whole noble death thing, in the future Hamilton realizes that Project Cadmus is an evil scheme set up by some sort of evil villain mastermind to ensure his control over the world and thus Hamilton gives up his life to stop it. Perhaps hamilton could even get the chance to say he sorry to supes before he dies.

[Enemy Ace]

Wow, this was definately the best episode of JLU by a good margin. They need more shows like this.

It was cool to see Dr. Milo and Hugo Strange again (as well as the Dr. Langstrom reference). Im thinking who can replace Milo in Cadmus now that he's dead - Dr. Emile Dorian (from B:TAS "Tyger, Tyger"), or maybe a young Dr. Cuvier (how's that for a continuity reference?). Im hoping we can see some more obscure animated Batman villains in time. Red Claw or Kyodai Ken would be good choices. Maybe they can find a place for Rupert Thorne or Roland Daggett?

Speaking of which, the Suicide Squad has been referenced to in the past. Im thinking of the perfect field leader for an animated Suicide Squad - Andrea Beaumont, The Phantasm. Now how's that for a fan-gasm?

Also i think too many people r accepting the JLU's belief that Luthor is behind everything. It just seems way too easy for it to be the answer. Here's my idea, Darkseid is missing on Apokalips, where do u think he went? Operating under the cover of the reclusive Billionaire Bates, he's funding Cadmus, and manipulating both sides against each other. The JLU vs. the worlds governments, both sides come out losers, he walks in and picks up the pieces.I was thinking the same thing about a replacement for Milo, especially since it seems he was getting the boot before Doomsday took care of some HR downsizing in his own fashion. I don't think we should rule out Emile Dorian (god, I miss that guy) being a part of this just yet:evil: .

Phantasm being part of the Squad's brilliant. At least the b.t. universe should still be able to use her.

[Casey Mack]

Perhaps they are setting Hamilton upfor the whole noble death thing, in the future Hamilton realizes that Project Cadmus is an evil scheme set up by some sort of evil villain mastermind to ensure his control over the world and thus Hamilton gives up his life to stop it. Perhaps hamilton could even get the chance to say he sorry to supes before he dies.
Hamilton knows what he got himself into, and he is enjoying it. If supes ever find out Hamilton is part of this, hamilton will have to run very very far......

[Grimlock]

Im going to admit for the record that I didn't notice the animation flaws. In my defence, I have said before that I grade episodes pretty much entirely on the writing. Plot, characterization and scripting mean alot more to me than arcane stuff like "model sheets" and "storyboarding". Still, I like to think I can spot REALLY bad animation when its on the screen. I did notice a few obviously CG moments but they didn't look that necessarily BAD to me, just a bit incongruous. Can someone do me a favor and point out, just for my own edifcation, where some of the really bad animation moments in this episode were cause I honestly was too wrapped up in the story to tell.
I'm of a similar vein as you, but when they showed the giant Superman head (when Doomsday was being brainwashed), and seeing Bruce's head at the end...i could totally tell it wasn't drawn well.

Bruce had a receeding hairline, and his face was so...generic. It looked like those imitation Timm drawings are on toy packaging and the DVD drawings.

[Paul_Cousins]

Perhaps they are setting Hamilton upfor the whole noble death thing, in the future Hamilton realizes that Project Cadmus is an evil scheme set up by some sort of evil villain mastermind to ensure his control over the world and thus Hamilton gives up his life to stop it. Perhaps hamilton could even get the chance to say he sorry to supes before he dies.I always figured that Hamilton finally went to the "Dark Side" and became the mad scientist that we always knew he could be. :evil:

[DLM]

Phantasm being part of the Squad's brilliant. At least the b.t. universe should still be able to use her.No doubt! She would fit PERFECTLY into a DCAU Suicide Squad. And that would be a real treat for continuity fans, not to mention at least one of the regular posters here!

[Teo]

Season 2 of JLU has been nearly brilliant. The animation was maybe a bit weak (WW had some weird face stuff going on), but the story and pacing were pretty spot on. They were able to effectively reference past episodes, tie it to current actions, and have significant character development. I love that Batman is more cranky and less friendly with Superman again (His JL/U self is my least favorite in the Timm shows). It's a great way to explain his suspicious BB self and adds some tension back into the League's structure. I love that the main 7 are shown running things still and that my Flash-loving self doesn't have to worry that he's been cast aside.

The only weakness I saw was the Superman fight. I loved that they showed how desperate he was, but it didn't feel built up enough. The fight didn't seem more desperate than any of his other big rows which made his attempt to laser Doomsday's thinking lobes less impactful (although I still got the point).

4.5 stars because season 2 continues to make everything I disliked about season 1 go away (even my Batman whining is mollified when he's used like this).

[BlackoutCreature]

God, I hope it's not Darkseid. Let the guy stay dead. :shrug:

Honestly, I hope they don't take the "one villain behind everything" route. It's much more interesting that there really isn't an explicit "bad guy" at this point (other than Doomsday). The fact that both sides perceive themselves as "good" makes the story that much better. I don't like the idea of any specific person being responsible for the situation. Finding out Darkseid or somebody was behind everything would cheapen it, IMO.Well first of all, do u really think theyre gonna keep Darkseid dead (or missing)? I doubt the JLU people ever intended that in the first place. Whether he becomes involved with the conspiracy theory is one thing, but i cant imagine him not appearing again.

And while no specific bad guy does make things interesting for now, where does it lead in the long-term? You get one of two choices, either they stay at odds forever and we get no satisfying conclusion to the story-arc (and in effect, the series as a whole), or one side winds up dismantling the other (if Cadmus falls apart, it proves they were right and the JLU does become the Justice Lords, if the JLU falls apart, the series ends). A third party behind everything is the only answer. It would give us the grand final showdown we'd want as fans, and leave open a reconciliation between the two sides.

Besides, would Darkseid's involvement cheapen it any less then Luthors? Luthor wouldnt bankroll Cadmus just to protect the country. If he's behind everything, he's doing it for the same reason Darkseid would be doing it, to grab power, just on a less galactic scale.

[Rabi~en~Rose]

Also i think too many people r accepting the JLU's belief that Luthor is behind everything. It just seems way too easy for it to be the answer. Here's my idea, Darkseid is missing on Apokalips, where do u think he went? Operating under the cover of the reclusive Billionaire Bates, he's funding Cadmus, and manipulating both sides against each other. The JLU vs. the worlds governments, both sides come out losers, he walks in and picks up the pieces.

Luthor is obvious but Darkseid is more obvious which makes Luthor less obvious if that makes any sense :confused: theres always the chance Vandal Savage could be the mastermind :)

but if you ask me the real person behind all of this is Robin and the league of forgotten/embargo'd sidekicks :eek:


Hamilton knows what he got himself into, and he is enjoying it. If supes ever find out Hamilton is part of this, hamilton will have to run very very far......

yes he and Supes better have a day of reckoning!

[BlackoutCreature]

I hope they don't. John Vernon passed away, so if it's not already in the pipeline, I sure as hell don't want them recasting.I actually forgot all about John Vernon's recent passing in my original post. In light of that perhaps its best for Rupert Thorne not to reappear. Id still love to see Roland Daggett again.

[JThree]

You know. I have to think that Luther might be a red herring. It would be just too obvious. And Mr. Timm and such like putting a spin on things too much.


Wouldn't it be something if it was Batman who made the bad choice in all this? Not that he's the mastermind, but we've all put Batman put up on the pedestal, this might be a way to bring him down a bit. You can see something coming, and it might actually be Bruce, who may be deceived.


Sincerely,

JThree
carolyn@dia.net

[The Overlord]

You know. I have to think that Luther might be a red herring. It would be just too obvious. And Mr. Timm and such like putting a spin on things too much.


Wouldn't it be something if it was Batman who made the bad choice in all this? Not that he's the mastermind, but we've all put Batman put up on the pedestal, this might be a way to bring him down a bit. You can see something coming, and it might actually be Bruce, who may be deceived.


Sincerely,

JThree
carolyn@dia.net
If there is a super villain mastermind behind Cadmus, I would bet on Vandal Savage. Question said that the secret cabal that controls the Earthand is behind the Cadmus plot was around since ancient Egypt, Luthor has not being around that long so he didn't create it, also I doubt Darkseid was aware of Earth 5000 years ago or else he would have conqured Earth then insteading waiting till now. This whole scheme would fit in with Vandal's MO more than anyone else's

[otter]

GREAT episode. All the little continuity references were a nice touch. Loved that scene where the camera was rotating around the conference table with the core members. It sorta added a big budget blockbuster quality to the episode. The only problem I had was that my poor tiny brain kept thinking the Suicide Squad was going to pop up. During all the Watchtower scenes, I kept thinking "Better watch out Fire & Ice, the Squad's gonna get ya!" or "Heads up Vibe & Booster!" or "Watch out non-descript JSA dudes!" Even after the last commercial break, I was like "Gee, there's just 5 minutes left in the show. That doesn't leave much time for the Annihilator and the Squad to sneak onto the Watchtower. I guess the League really mops them up in a matter of seconds." Finally a light bulb went off in my head that those Suicide Squad preview clips were for a later episode.

[JWangSDC]

I would LOVE for darkseid to be behind it somewhere. Can't wait for his return. Twighlight was the best JL two parter I'd ever seen.

Oh on a side note...so Bruce's eyes are Brown in JL right? (Just like they were in Starcrossed). They were just changed to blue for The Once And FUture Thing in order to match the old wayne's eye color correct?

[Yarharhar]

I can totally understand batman's reaction. I mean, he freakin' built the first watchtower and practically founded the league. When something of your own creation starts to do the opposite of what you intended, or even starts to show signs of that, you get pissed off.

[Ian]

One of the best episodes of the series, just below The Once and Future Thing pt. 1 for best episode ever. The good bits have been said, so let's get on with the bad.

First of all...

Hawkgirl is Big 7 again? That is such (eight letter compound profanity)! That's favoritism at its worst, akin to having had Gerard Ford reinstate Nixon as president after Watergate. Who the heck is in charge over there? With accountability like that, it's no wonder the League is considered a threat. At least the U.S. has Congress (even if it's half-broken at the moment) and The Supremes to keep them honest.

Seriously, the way they've been handling the Hawkgirl storyline is driving me nuts. Sure, the JL may have wanted to keep here there, but the JL of Starcrossed isn't the one in JLU; there are 40+ members there, each (I assume) with their own individual feelings regarding the issue. Despite this, the characters are still acting like that wasn't the case.

On another note, Doomsday's strenght was inconsistent over the episode. The guy can take on Superman, but still gets stuck on hardened lava? Still, good fight, if uncreative--then again, Superman is always uncreative when it comes to Doomsday.

Question, if the CGI is used as a cost-reducing measure, why is it used on the easiest-to-animate stuff? I mean, it's not as if the Javelin has any moving parts.

Now, for the good.

The government stuff. All good. One can see their point, and, from a pragmatic point of view, one can argue the correctness of their actions. \is it wrong of me to say I'd like to see them win? I always did like regular humans more than superheroes.

Batman. Best he's been in the entire series.


I wasn't sure if I liked where it was going at firstHot male cartoon-on-male cartoon action?

[Legionaire]

It was a pretty exciting episode, aside from the (STILL) poor CG and otherwise mediocre animation, no real quibbles except one.

WHO IS VOTING FOR LEX LUTHOR?!?!

Weren't politicians already untrustworthy enough? The guy's an ex-con and perennial archfoe of Superman...and there are a majority of people that want him to run their country?!
Hey, Marion Berry got re-elected mayor of Washington DC, and he was a crack-head. Stranger things have happened.

[raynos]

Just finished watching Doomsday Sanction, and... I loved it, but there's just something... off.

Let me get this straight: I'm a conspiracy freak. Fearful Symmetry had me on the edge of my seat, seeing Waller in Ultimatum made me squeal, I RP The Question whenever I get the chance, and... you get the idea.

But this episode, as the latest installment of the conspiracy, is baffling.

As an episode, I enjoyed it very very much. This is what the JLU should be about. Aside from the horrible animation, the story rocked. The interchange between Waller and Bats, the two board meetings, the Doomsday-Supes fight, Bats vs the missile, the chilling trial and above all, the Supes-Bats interaction, was all top-notch. And they mentioned the Lorders again. *tries not to start dancing*

But seeing that both sides are for 'good', the mysterious funding, the misgiving individual members are being to have... I'm beginning to think we're being led on a wild goose chase. The conspiracy isn't about Cadmus. It's about someone else who wants the League and Cadmus to destroy each other, like the people who want to get rid of the supers all together. We've seen anti-superhero sentiments before; what's to say that it isn't more of that here? Don't you think it's odd that the very people who are fighting against super-heros are creating more super-powered people themselves? Where is this leading?

Or it could be that I'm channeling too much of The Question and am 'wound up too tight'.

Well, this is just my two cents. Although I was horrified at the trial scene, I didn't have a sense of growing horror at the end of this episode, just baffled. Now excuse me while I go through your trash.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Hey, Marion Berry got re-elected mayor of Washington DC, and he was a crack-head. Stranger things have happened.
It may be reasonable in-show, but it's kinda hard to swallow for us viewers, considering we've seen Luthor's dark side from the very beginning.

Finally hit what was bothering me: last time I checked, presidential authorization was required for nuclear weapons to be used, but the general here lit one off with nary a second thought. :sweat:

[Yarharhar]

Here's a quick geeky question: Was this the same active-volcano island superman fought metallo on?

[Zergrinch]

Well actually Doomsday had to have been created before they knew about the Lords. I do like the tie in though.
You've probably hit the biggest plot hole in this episode.

Waller said they started the simulations after Superman told the government everything about the Justice Lords. Yet Milo told Doomsday that he was a clone of Superman, and was subjected to torture sessions by Waller and Hamilton.

But the Justice Lords fought Doomsday before the Luthor pardon.

Also, in "A Better World", Doomsday never went after Superman. He merely wanted to see the "strongest this planet had to offer." This clashes against Milo's exposition - Doomsday would already have Superman's face hardwired in his mind.

Heh. Ret-cons. :p

Of course, we could always rationalize this by considering both Waller and Milo as self-serving liars, and be done with my gripe.

______________

Still, that was but a minor quibble. I expected a bam-fest right from the get-go, but the episode started with a gravitationally-challenged female getting out of bed. Nice touch.

Do you guys remember the other fat woman who was taken over by aliens in "Secret Origins"? Did she look remotely like Amanda? :D

[lostrune]

1. So it's time. Lex for Prez! :o

2. Wow. Batman vs. Amanda Waller. In the bathroom. Mano y mano. Threat to threat. :cool:

3. Project Cadmus. So, the good Dr. Hamilton is really a head honcho in this conspiracy. :ack:

4. Heheheh. The Justice Lords can't be without Flash. :D

5. Whoa. CN actually allowed fired Dr. Milo's imagining "going postal" on Waller's ass?! :eek:

6. So, Doomsday is Superman's DNA clone and not really an alien from outer space?!
(Personally, I would have preferred all clones to look as good as Galatea. ;) )

7. A Kryptonite missile now? Why not a Kryptonite "dirty bomb" too while they're at it. :sweat:

8. Superman could had also thrown Doomsday in the middle of the ocean (Doomsday can't fly so he'd have to swim while fighting - advantage: Superman). :shrug:

9. Though I dunno why WW had to save Superman from the lava when lava felt like nothing to Supes. Come to think of it, WW didn't save Batman in the show this time - didn't even give him a get-well kiss. So, WW was all-business this time. ;)

10. Et tu, Bruce?! Bruce, of all people after making grave threats to Waller, is starting to adopt her point of view?! Won't even let Superman joke? :crying:

11. You know what? If Superman could take him, Doomsday doesn't feel like much of a threat now, plus with Amazo and Lobo around.... :yawn:

[Zergrinch]

7. A Kryptonite missile now? Why not a Kryptonite "dirty bomb" too while they're at it. :sweat:
I thought it was a kryptonite-tipped nuclear missile. I swear, you can buy kryptonite at your nearest DCAU Walmart, given its relative abundance...


]10. Et tu, Bruce?! Bruce, of all people after making grave threats to Waller, is starting to adopt her point of view?! Won't even let Superman joke? :crying:
You know, I was wondering if Waller herself was a bit taken aback by Eiling's rash action, and may even start to adopt Bruce's point of view at the beginning. That in their zeal to neutralize the Justice League, Project Cadmus may do more harm than good.

Switcheroo would be so interesting.

[Knight]

IIRC, Waller was referring to 'simulations' that the
government ran on trying to stop the JL if they decided to take power. I
believe she said that the JL won everytime, and it only took '7' (i.e. the
Big 7). Now compare that too the current roster of 40-50 heroes...



No she said "In another dimension 7 of you overthrough the government". So
she was indeed talking about the Justice Lords and that was a mistake on the
number.


Well considering that this episode showed the early parts of a presidential campaign going on, with Lex as one of the candidates, I am going to guess that in the DCAU timeline the current JLU episode is some time in early 2008; with 2009 coming up.Why cant it be 2004? I dont think b.t. and co are going to push a story so far into the future.

[Revelator]

The change to half-hour is definitely working to the show's benefit. I don't think JL or JLU has ever packed that much into 22 minutes. Very few times have I been riveted in place throughout an episode. Stretching all that over 2 episodes would have watered it down.
I greatly liked the intertwined council meetings--it reminds me of how Fritz Lang intercut the police and gangster meetings in M, to get across the underlying similarities between the two. And the endlessly moving camera helps emphasize that vicious circle that underlies the interaction between both groups.

When Superman desparately zapped Doomsday on the head I sat back before realizing my mouth was hanging open. So that was where that bizarre gasping sound came from. Besides Bruce's startling outburst "You don't get to joke!," that eyebeam moment was the most searing--no, scary, part of the show. In just a few seconds of visual action, we were saddened to see Batman's doubts rubbed in our faces. Superman doesn't have to grow control-mad or vengeful to realize Bruce's fears; he has to be in a corner.

One criticism: while making Dr.Milo a swiftly killed has-been (dig the purple bags under his eyes and the stubble) is adequate recompense for having endured him "Cat Scratch Fever" and "Moon of the Wolf," having him get killed offscreen isn't really gratifying enough. Since seeing him get torn into itty-bitty pieces would have been satisfying but impossible to show, I think time would have been better spent by leaving out Milo and perhaps having a few more JLU interaction scenes instead--maybe a scene of the Question skulking around, or Batman doing further investigating, or Booster Gold and Vibe getting into a fight. Doomsday could have escaped some other way. The fight was not exciting in the way the Darkseid/Mongul fights were, but there's not much one can do with Doomsday--a character even more boring than Mongul--and a non-pissed Superman. And the fight was not a main event in itself--it's just there to place Superman in bigger danger than Doomsday could provide by himself. It wasn't a final confrontation, as in Twilight, or a payback bout as in FTMWHE.

Btw, just what is the exact spelling of Dos Santos' first name? Imdb gives "Joaquam," TVTome gives "Joaquim." I've never heard of the former before, but I'm no authority on Spanish name variants.

[Slane]

I'm not going to attempt arguing that Superman isn't anything like his Lorder version; Alex Weitzman proved that. Instead, I'm going to argue that Bruce, at the end of this episode, is not concerned about Superman going rouge, at least not as much as he is about another problem.


The League playing judge jury and sentancer to Doomsday (combined with the fact that he might have seen the burn marks on Doomsday's forehead and been reminded of Lorder Supes) could just have been the straw that broke the camel's back and caused him to lash out. Keep in mind that in the same scene we got a reminder that Bats and Supes have a bond in spite of clashing personalities. "You know me" "Yes, I do" That exchange is ominous in that Bats' response can be interpreted two ways, but keep in mind that one of those ways IS positive. I take Bruce's final comment as the more positive comment. Initially, he was just lashing out in anger at Superman for his presumptive actions, but he made that lashing out a test; if Supes is going to start defending his actions as right and proper, then Bruce's fears will be confirmed. However, Superman didn't talk; Clark was Clark talking, not giving excuses, offering only a statement of who he is and a request for trust.

For that, Clark re-affirmed that he was not the Lorder version, and Bruce believes that. The last scene, looking at Lex, made Bruce re-categorize his priorities; the League was not the problem, but Lex may be it. That is where his focus is going.


Did anyone wonder why Batman was looking at Luthor so strangly at the end. Maybe he's a clone... :eek: See above; I think that it was just Bruce determining a new target, and it was not the League.

...

I also liked how Waller was humanized; she was discussing a serious problem the League could pose and wanted to do something to fix it. This was better than Eiling, who didn't mind murdering an entire island of people (as well as a couple of JLers) for the better cause of eliminating Doomsday; his goal wasn't wrong, but the additional ramifications were too much. He appeared heartless.

[EJill34]

I also liked how Waller was humanized; she was discussing a serious problem the League could pose and wanted to do something to fix it. This was better than Eiling, who didn't mind murdering an entire island of people (as well as a couple of JLers) for the better cause of eliminating Doomsday; his goal wasn't wrong, but the additional ramifications were too much. He appeared heartless.
I think that was done to contrast the two characters and to show that there is conflict within the government conspiracy just like there is in the League.

[dpm07]

According to that site:

"Tala (first appearance: The Phantom Stranger (second series) #4) is a demoness, a Queen of Evil, a mistress of Hell"

So the government is consorting with demons???

Wow, they must REALLY be desperate to stop the league who has yet to do anything bad.
They are probably just considering having all bases covered. Remember, the Justice League has individuals that delve into the supernatural and use it to aid in their efforts against evil, i.e. Phantom Stranger, Etrigan, Dr. Fate, Zatanna, etc.

[Samurai Rocko]

This episode was perfect. My favorite episode of JLU now.

[Knight]

They are probably just considering having all bases covered. Remember, the Justice League has individuals that delve into the supernatural and use it to aid in their efforts against evil, i.e. Phantom Stranger, Etrigan, Dr. Fate, Zatanna, etc.
Thats a good possibility (although The Phantom Stranger isnt on the show) but they may have something in the works for the magic users as well.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

So I take it the comics never revealed his origin? Sorry if this is a silly question, I've never really followed DC comics that closely. :sad:
In the comics, Doomsday was created on a Prehistoric Krypton by aliens...well...anyway, I liked this origin better to be honest.


Wow

Luthor running for President
Tha Batman /Amanda Waller confrontation
ALL of the big 7 at the round table
Galateas almost up and running again
Doomsdays origin (cloned from Superman)
Dr. Milo from BTAS (now deceased)
Batman with Amanda Waller's private presidential number images/smilies/tongue.gif
Phantom Zoning Doomsday (hey I think that was a good idea)
Uh Oh Batman's starting to have his doubts :ack:

Informative ep.
They really no how to cram a lot into a thirty minute ep! I was impressed by all that too.


Bruce is going to kill Luthor!
That scene at the end was totally creepy! I loved that scene! Seeing Luthor on the television running for president. Don't get much scarier than that. Just like in the comics!


My god, that rocked. And Hugo Strange made it to his cameo after all. images/smilies/biggrin.gif (But I thought his cameo had to be taken out because he was part of the embargo?)
I'm a stupid idiot. I thought that was Dr. Sivana. That was Hugo Strange. By the way, If you are referring to the fact that Hugo is part of Batman's rogues gallery, I don't think that's applicable till the movie shows. I guess. Plus Luthor's there and there's gonna be a Superman movie just next year.


So Doomsday's in the Phantom Zone. I wonder if he'll see Zod while he's there?
Weird...I was thinking the exact same thing. I was thinking that they'd escape together.


Um, that wasn't really splicing, that was more of transforming into the creature on and off. They never called it splicing in On Leather Wings.
But he used "Bat genes." It wasn't referred to as splicing directly, but that's what it was.

[Knight]

In the comics, Doomsday was created on a Prehistoric Krypton by aliens...well...anyway, I liked this origin better to be honest.
Timm and co really know how to simplify things because Dd's comic origin is drawn out and wouldnt work with the established animated history.








Weird...I was thinking the exact same thing. I was thinking that they'd escape together. Has Zod ever been established in the animated world? Why would anyone think hes in the Phantom Zone.



But he used "Bat genes." It wasn't referred to as splicing directly, but that's what it was. Yeah the termanology hadnt been established back then but that what it is or was.

[creativerealms]

You've probably hit the biggest plot hole in this episode.

Waller said they started the simulations after Superman told the government everything about the Justice Lords. Yet Milo told Doomsday that he was a clone of Superman, and was subjected to torture sessions by Waller and Hamilton.

But the Justice Lords fought Doomsday before the Luthor pardon.

Also, in "A Better World", Doomsday never went after Superman. He merely wanted to see the "strongest this planet had to offer." This clashes against Milo's exposition - Doomsday would already have Superman's face hardwired in his mind.

Heh. Ret-cons. :p

Of course, we could always rationalize this by considering both Waller and Milo as self-serving liars, and be done with my gripe.

______________

Still, that was but a minor quibble. I expected a bam-fest right from the get-go, but the episode started with a gravitationally-challenged female getting out of bed. Nice touch.

Do you guys remember the other fat woman who was taken over by aliens in "Secret Origins"? Did she look remotely like Amanda? :D
The Doomsday and Galatia projects were created due to Legacy, and Superman attacking Earth. The Lords problem came into play latter. At first Waller and crew were just after a way to have their own superman in case he betrays them. Their Goals changed to all super heroes once they learned about the Lords from Luthor.

However you are right that Doomsday did not just want to kill Supes in "A better World" so it was a bit of a re-con.

[John6777]

I like this episode, even with its talkiness, but I'm really, really, REALLY disappointed by the underwhelming animation. For a story this big, you'd think they would put the MAN, Joaquam, on it. And get the AAA boarders on this puppy. But they didn't. God, that Doomsday fight could have been legendary. Instead it's just mediocre, because it ends up being staged, posed, and animated as lame as any regular Justice League episode, complete with unnecessary white flashes and uninteresting cinematography. Is there only one director in the entire show that cares about the art?! After flaunting how well you can choreograph fights with the season 2 premiere, why take so many steps back? I just don't understand it.

Some of the emotions were well done, especially on Waller, but Wonder Woman looked like a robot. Whether happy, upset, angry, she had the same blank look on her face... the same with Martian Manhunter. I don't know what that's about.

Aside from the animation, the action was very tense and well thought out. The story had a good structure to it. At this point in time I'm giving the episode a B, baring the ending. I'll change this post if the ending is great or terrible.

EDIT: Already I feel I have to change this grade to a B- because the poses of Superman punching Doomsday right before throwing him into the volcano were literally taken from For the Man Who Has Everything. Ugh.

EDIT EDIT: You know what, change it back to a B. I really liked Bruce's dialogue with Superman. They always have the best conflicts.

Next episode looks like a Joaquam episode. Too bad it won't be a while until it airs. :/

I actually agree with you here lol. The episode was terrific but with such a huge episode you think they would have atleast got D.R. Movie to animate it. I am sure they could have made it look alot better then it did.

[Knight]

The Doomsday and Galatia projects were created due to Legacy, and Superman attacking Earth. The Lords problem came into play latter. At first Waller and crew were just after a way to have their own superman in case he betrays them. Their Goals changed to all super heroes once they learned about the Lords from Luthor.Actually they learned about the Lords from Superman. Luthor didnt have any knowledge of the Lords activities.


However you are right that Doomsday did not just want to kill Supes in "A better World" so it was a bit of a re-con.Speaking of A Better World Doomsday's voice didnt sound the same this time around. I actually liked it more in his previous appearance.

[Killtacular]

I actually agree with you here lol. The episode was terrific but with such a huge episode you think they would have atleast got D.R. Movie to animate it. I am sure they could have made it look alot better then it did.
No, that has nothing to do with it. Whoever directs and boards the episode has everything to do with how the episode is going to turn out. The animation studios work with what they're given. The only animation studio that can't handle anything they're given is WANG FILM, a studio only used by Static Shock and Ozzy and Drix.

Both the season 2 premiere and last night's episode were animated by Dong Yang. The best looking episode of the show and the worst looking. There is your exhibit A and B right there. With a good director, and passionate storyboarders that aren't just doing their job to pay the bills (which seems to be the case for A LOT of people that work at WBA these days... like everyone working on Loonatics, for example), you can turn out something really impressive. Ben Jones, Joaquam Dos Santos, Andrew Youngberg, these are people that actually understand that animation is a VISUAL MEDIUM and that the VISUALS, the timing and art, should be the most important priority. With an average director and un-empassioned storyboarders, you get.. most of Justice League.

The next episode of JL looks like it is done by the former category, as the shots looked very nice, and it is probably a Dong Yang episode too, as most of JLU has been.

[Dorko]

Does the league KNOW Doomsday was Superman's clone? because if they don't, which is likely, then they must think the k-bomb was sent to kill Superman. Maybe i am just talking out of my butt here.

[Fone Bone]

If there is a super villain mastermind behind Cadmus, I would bet on Vandal Savage. Question said that the secret cabal that controls the Earthand is behind the Cadmus plot was around since ancient Egypt, Luthor has not being around that long so he didn't create it, also I doubt Darkseid was aware of Earth 5000 years ago or else he would have conqured Earth then insteading waiting till now. This whole scheme would fit in with Vandal's MO more than anyone else'sVandal Savage would be PERFECT to be in on the conspiracy considering his history. I don't mind if there is a single driving force behind it too much. It MIGHT cheapen the story but if it's done right it might not.

As far as the Doomsday not specifically going after Superman in A Better World I don't really see that as a retcon, just the creators taking the story in a different direction. There was no dialogue in A Better World that SAID Doomsday wasn't actually targeting Superman. Since he is intelligent, he didn't need to show his cards right away.

[John6777]

No, that has nothing to do with it. Whoever directs and boards the episode has everything to do with how the episode is going to turn out. The animation studios work with what they're given. The only animation studio that can't handle anything they're given is WANG FILM, a studio only used by Static Shock and Ozzy and Drix.

Both the season 2 premiere and last night's episode were animated by Dong Yang. The best looking episode of the show and the worst looking. There is your exhibit A and B right there. With a good director, and passionate storyboarders that aren't just doing their job to pay the bills (which seems to be the case for A LOT of people that work at WBA these days... like everyone working on Loonatics, for example), you can turn out something really impressive. Ben Jones, Joaquam Dos Santos, Andrew Youngberg, Irineo Maramba, Adam Van Wyk, these are people that actually understand that animation is a VISUAL MEDIUM and that the VISUALS, the timing and art, should be the most important priority. With an average director and un-empassioned storyboarders, you get.. most of Justice League.

The next episode of JL looks like it is done by the former category, as the shots looked very nice, and it is probably a Dong Yang episode too, as most of JLU has been.I don't agree with that. I can always tell the difference between animation studios. The Cat and the Canary was done by D.R. Movie. This one was done by Dong Yang. Same reason I can tell that Lotto does Teen Titans. Teen Titans has the same storyboarders but Lotto makes there episodes look 1000 times better then the crap Dong Woo does.

Same Reason I can always tell when Superman was done by TMS or Dong Yang. TMS is just better in everything they did. Same way D.R. Movie is better.

P.S. Love seeing Juliet Landau as Tala. Great Whedonverse stuff in these last 2 seasons of JLU.

[Maxie Zeus]

Both the season 2 premiere and last night's episode were animated by Dong Yang.

Season 2 of JL or season 2 of JLU? Because "The Cat and the Canary" was animated by DR Movie.

[Knight]

Does the league KNOW Doomsday was Superman's clone? because if they don't, which is likely, then they must think the k-bomb was sent to kill Superman. Maybe i am just talking out of my butt here.
They have no idea he was made using Superman's dna. Doomsday wasnt very talkative about his reported origins. So The League probably thinks the k bomb was sent specifically to kill Superman.

[charles At NC]

I thought it was a kryptonite-tipped nuclear missile. I swear, you can buy kryptonite at your nearest DCAU Walmart, given its relative abundance...


You know, I was wondering if Waller herself was a bit taken aback by Eiling's rash action, and may even start to adopt Bruce's point of view at the beginning. That in their zeal to neutralize the Justice League, Project Cadmus may do more harm than good.

Switcheroo would be so interesting.A question I have is what happend to that depowergun/gun thing that Luther used against the Justice Lords?

If the goverment was afraid of The Justice League going Rogue why not have a few on hand?

A very believable episode,except for the missile bit,that kind of authority is not given out to anybody but the president,at least his comfirmation would be needed to launch

wonder if we will see amanda walker heading the Department of Extranormal Operations

[Tyke]

Great episode! This series is wonderful!

[Casey Mack]

A question I have is what happend to that depowergun/gun thing that Luther used against the Justice Lords?

If the goverment was afraid of The Justice League going Rogue why not have a few on hand?

A very believable episode,except for the missile bit,that kind of authority is not given out to anybody but the president,at least his comfirmation would be needed to launch

wonder if we will see amanda walker heading the Department of Extranormal Operations
Luthor gave that "depowergun" to Superman as part of deal to get out of jail. Im assuming Supes has that gun, just like he has the Phantom zone machine, in some special place. Proabaly to be used for one of the "leagues trials".

[EJill34]

Both the season 2 premiere and last night's episode were animated by Dong Yang. The best looking episode of the show and the worst looking. There is your exhibit A and B right there.Do you really think that "The Doomsday Sanction" was the worst-looking episode of JLU? I'd say that "Fearful Symmetry," "Greatest Story Never Told," "Dark Heart" and "The Once and Future Thing, Part 1" all looked a lot less fluid than last night's episode.

And, like others have mentioned, D.R. Movie animated "TCATC" and Dong Yang did "TDS."


The next episode of JL looks like it is done by the former category, as the shots looked very nice, and it is probably a Dong Yang episode too, as most of JLU has been.Actually, after checking the credits for all the JLU episodes that have aired so far, D.R. Movie and Dong Yang/Koko have both animated 8 episodes a piece.

And about the "next-time-on" clips, there were (probably) 3 episodes previewed, and two of them are almost certainly done by D.R. Movie (the clips with Tala, Atom Smasher, Vigilante, Shining Knight and the Annihilator and the Green Arrow/Question/Black Canary/Huntress segments). The other one which had Shayera and Wonder Woman in Hell looked like a Dong Yang episode. Granted, that's all my eye picked up from watching the credits once, but I think I've seen enough JL/JLU episodes to pick up the differences in style.

[JohnCrichton]

How did Doomsday go up into space... and come down in another dimension? O_o

[EJill34]

How did Doomsday go up into space... and come down in another dimension? O_o
The Justice Lords invaded the Justice League's dimension after trapping the League in their dimension. Basically, they switched places.

[JohnCrichton]

Ah, okay... I got a little confused there for a second. So, wait... where are the Justice Lords now? Are they still in goverment custody?

[Casey Mack]

Ah, okay... I got a little confused there for a second. So, wait... where are the Justice Lords now? Are they still in goverment custody?
the justice lords are back in thier own dimension for now...........

[Phantasm]

This episode was also great in that it finally seemed to have straightened Batman out. Througout JLU Batman had his moments of being out of character, partly due to Diana's involvement, but all that seems to have been settled and Batman has now settled back into the inevitable 'Batman mood'.

The spotlight that Batman recieved in JLU was all a Batman fan could honestly ask for, but it came with a price in the sense that in order for Batman to be highlighted in an episode, he had to be done so with another JLer, which would mean that Batman and that other Leager had to be on screen together without it looking awkward.Now Batman is not a 'people person', so for it work out they had to loosen him up a bit, the result being his rather uncharacteristic chat with GL about women and 'interest' in Diana.

The events of this episode gave Batman a reason to return back to being a loner, which he truely is. The scene where an injured Bruce is barking warnings at Superman and Wonder Woman was scary. The way it was staged seemed to imply that Batman was singled out. Even WW, didn't side with what Batman had to say. And Clark just shrugged it off. But I'm glad because in my opinion at least, this is how it should be. Batman doesn't possess the natural inclination to be buddies with others and I'm glad that the way this epiode ended, it seems like Batman will be back to his old ways.JLU has had Batman be a little bit TOO friendly with fellow Leagers.

And YAY for putting an end to this BM/WW 'relationship'!Diana displayed a perfect blend of strength and compassion in this episode even if I found her siding with Superman a bit odd.

As for a possible Phantasm appearance on JLU,I'd vote against it. Andrea doesn't belong amidst a horde of superheroes with bright costumes.;) Though it would be awesome to see what Diana would say when filled in on their history!

[Knight]

the justice lords are back in thier own dimension for now...........And you know this how? Just checking to see if I missed something.They never said what they did with the Lords in A Better World.

[shoujoaifan]

Ah, okay... I got a little confused there for a second. So, wait... where are the Justice Lords now? Are they still in goverment custody?Hmmm, makes you wonder if they'll ever show up again. Powers, easy come, easy go, easy come again....

Hmmm again, we all know Cadmus is the very subjective "villian" of JLU, Galatea is coming back, and I remember an interview from awhile back that BT and Co. didn't set off with an overall plot, but by Ep. 3 they realized they had set down enough stuff to start one, including the insult to our and kids' intelligence, "Hawk and Dove", and now we got Hell showing up. GRANTED the H+D ep might have been just more war setup, but magic did play alot in JLU S1, so who knows how this will come together at the S2 finale-unless the magic part gets settled later.

[The Master Con]

As I had predicted Batman is turning more towards government, or should I say "mortal", control. It is clear that he realizes the parallels between this universe and the alternate one. With the events occuring in the same fashion of the alternate universe I wonder if he believes that perhaps it wasn't an alternate one, but simply one who's events occured faster. And he believes that unless the events of today are changed, time shall repeat itself. He distrusts all of them secretly, I wouldn't be suprised if he didn't have his own versions of kryptonite for all of them. You can tell the writers are preparing for him to defect by making his reasons less "evil" by making the other side more understanding to the viewing audience. They have spent the recent season trying to increase Luther's likability and this episode clearly demonstrated Amanda Waller being a good person in reality. I guarentee you him and other human members of the Justice League are going to defect and Civil War will break out between the two sides within the Watchtower.

[Casey Mack]

As I had predicted Batman is turning more towards government, or should I say "mortal", control. It is clear that he realizes the parallels between this universe and the alternate one. With the events occuring in the same fashion of the alternate universe I wonder if he believes that perhaps it wasn't an alternate one, but simply one who's events occured faster. And he believes that unless the events of today are changed, time shall repeat itself. He distrusts all of them secretly, I wouldn't be suprised if he didn't have his own versions of kryptonite for all of them. You can tell the writers are preparing for him to defect by making his reasons less "evil" by making the other side more understanding to the viewing audience. They have spent the recent season trying to increase Luther's likability and this episode clearly demonstrated Amanda Waller being a good person in reality. I guarentee you him and other human members of the Justice League are going to defect and Civil War will break out between the two sides within the Watchtower.
why would they defect, what has the League saved to many lives or beaten to many badguys? Or has the League given their own lives to many times for the safety of the world? What Batman was saying was rather dumb in my mind. How many times has the League helped the earth, i see no point in "Civil" war breaking out for no reason. Amanda waller wanted to kill superman for the simple reason they fear him, they are scared of them thats all. Batman fears superman and keeps Kryptonite around its that simple. Superman is not worried cause he was raised by two kind hearted people, and sees no reason why he would just completly change his idealls.

[dpm07]

Thats a good possibility (although The Phantom Stranger isnt on the show) but they may have something in the works for the magic users as well.
You're right. The Phantom Stranger hasn't been on. However, I included him because I think I heard somewhere that he was going to make an appearance. I can't remember where I heard it, and it could be wrong, but I guess I am assuming he may make a point at some juncture.

[Phantasm]

. I guarentee you him and other human members of the Justice League are going to defect and Civil War will break out between the two sides within the Watchtower.Yeah, I've been thinking about the possibility of such a plotline ever since the airing of the Cat and the Canary. Enimity within the League would be SO interesting and realistic! I mean with all the various different people and Species from all over the universe, there's bound to be some bad relationships.

[The Evil Monkey]

This ep has replaced "A Better World" as my favorite JL ep.

Pros:

-The intro.
-"The Wall's" explanation of why the "conspiracy" exists. "In every scenario we ran, we lost--badly."
-The Roundtable discussions--BOTH of them. Flash had a great idea of how to prevent the Lords' future from happening :D .
-Doomsday's origin (I love the sequence where the Rocket burned up upon reentry.)
-Doomsday was a quote MACHINE in this ep:"I remember those eyes." *BAM* "Let's see you try that again.""Superman, I'm here to kill you. Is this a bad time?" "Your problem's solved."
-The Supes/Doomsday fight. I like how Supe's costume was ripped up, and it looked like the fight clearly was in Doomsday's favor.
-The whole scene with the missle, even though I knew that Bats wouldn't be killed.
-The Magnificent 7's reaction to The Question.
-Doomsday's sentencing. The Justice Lo--er League is looking a bit darker now.
-"There's always that Kroptonite you carry around."
-Superman trying to lobotomize Doomsday--even though "our" Superman would never do that. Uh-oh :sad: .

Cons:
-Superman's cop-out comeback at the end of the Doomsday fight. The whole time Doomsday was creaming Supes--and he gets taken down by a four punch combo?! :mad:
-How was that little bit of molten rock supposed to hold Doomsday?! He and Superman were flying thru the walls of the Volcano like they were paper, and the molten lava was like water to them--but a bit of molten rock is supposed to hold him? Sure,the volcano exploding could've stunned him long enough for the League to recover him--but shouldn't they have put some actual restaraints on him?
-Bad CG makes baby Jesus cry...

Notes:
-Diana didn't give some TLC to her psuedo-boyfriend--instead, she left the room with Supes--whassupwitdat?!
-Bruce's exchange with Superman rang true. He would've killed Darkseid, and almost killed Mongul so it's not much of a stretch for him to deep fry Lex if he was pushed far enough.
-In the comics, the Kryptonians considered the Phantom Zone a punishment worse than death, and the League didn't even try to turn Doomie over to the Feds, they just took the law into thier own hands--much like the Lords *dun dun dunnn!*. I'm guessing that's why Bats was so PO'ed. Waller's comments have really gotten to him.
-I smell "President Lex","Tower of Babel" and/or "Our Worlds at War".
-I know Doomsday is gonna get free in time for the finale( I'm guessing Hamilton may have created a Phantom Zone projector considering he spent time around Supe's OR Batman may even spring him), but will Jox and Mala get sprung with him?
-Like others, I smell a human vs. metahuman superhero civil war about to start.

[Casey Mack]

This ep has replaced "A Better World" as my favorite JL ep.

Pros:

-The intro.
-"The Wall's" explanation of why the "conspiracy" exists. "In every scenario we ran, we lost--badly."
-The Roundtable discussions--BOTH of them. Flash had a great idea of how to prevent the Lords' future from happening :D .
-Doomsday's origin (I love the sequence where the Rocket burned up upon reentry.)
-Doomsday was a quote MACHINE in this ep:"I remember those eyes." *BAM* "Let's see you try that again.""Superman, I'm here to kill you. Is this a bad time?" "Your problem's solved."
-The Supes/Doomsday fight. I like how Supe's costume was ripped up, and it looked like the fight clearly was in Doomsday's favor.
-The whole scene with the missle, even though I knew that Bats wouldn't be killed.
-The Magnificent 7's reaction to The Question.
-Doomsday's sentencing. The Justice Lo--er League is looking a bit darker now.
-"There's always that Kroptonite you carry around."
-Superman trying to lobotomize Doomsday--even though "our" Superman would never do that. Uh-oh :sad: .

Cons:
-Superman's cop-out comeback at the end of the Doomsday fight. The whole time Doomsday was creaming Supes--and he gets taken down by a four punch combo?! :mad:
-How was that little bit of molten rock supposed to hold Doomsday?! He and Superman were flying thru the walls of the Volcano like they were paper, and the molten lava was like water to them--but a bit of molten rock is supposed to hold him? Sure,the volcano exploding could've stunned him long enough for the League to recover him--but shouldn't they have put some actual restaraints on him?
-Bad CG makes baby Jesus cry...

Notes:
-Diana didn't give some TLC to her psuedo-boyfriend--instead, she left the room with Supes--whassupwitdat?!
-Bruce's exchange with Superman rang true. He would've killed Darkseid, and almost killed Mongul so it's not much of a stretch for him to deep fry Lex if he was pushed far enough.
-In the comics, the Kryptonians considered the Phantom Zone a punishment worse than death, and the League didn't even try to turn Doomie over to the Feds, they just took the law into thier own hands--much like the Lords *dun dun dunnn!*. I'm guessing that's why Bats was so PO'ed. Waller's comments have really gotten to him.
-I smell "President Lex","Tower of Babel" and/or "Our Worlds at War".
-I know Doomsday is gonna get free in time for the finale( I'm guessing Hamilton may have created a Phantom Zone projector considering he spent time around Supe's), but will Jox and Mala get sprung with him?

Jaxa and Mala got sucked into a Blackhole in "Absolute power" episodes of Superman the animated series. why would the league turn Doomsday over to the feds did you not see the entire point of this Episode?!

[The Master Con]

why would they defect, what has the League saved to many lives or beaten to many badguys? Or has the League given their own lives to many times for the safety of the world? What Batman was saying was rather dumb in my mind. How many times has the League helped the earth, i see no point in "Civil" war breaking out for no reason. Amanda waller wanted to kill superman for the simple reason they fear him, they are scared of them thats all. Batman fears superman and keeps Kryptonite around its that simple. Superman is not worried cause he was raised by two kind hearted people, and sees no reason why he would just completly change his idealls.
I realize that. That's why no matter what happens myself and the viewing audience will be rooting for Superman, and the Justice League itself, over Batman, and the government itself. For years people have viewed the Justice League as having two leaders or main heros, Batman and Superman. The difference between the two is one is in actuality the difference between night and day. Superman the great idealist, never willing to kill, always fighting for the little guy, always happy and joyful. The true product of the American son, growing up on a farm between two loving parents in Smallville, USA. Batman on the other hand is a realist. A darker figure who fights not out of love but from the pit of his own insanity and dark revenge. The closest thing he ever had to a father was Alfred but even at that he made himself what he is. He did what he did on his own and was willing to get what he felt had to be done no matter the cost towards others. And the only reason these twos were ever put together was due to their common goal of "good." But now that has changed. With many villains defeated it is both human and alien nature to make enemies out of themselves. Batman realizes what is happening and sees the possibility of Justice Lord rule. Although it still remains a possibility it is an outcome that is too great for it to left to chance. He sees the present as his only chance to stop the Justice League before they become too powerful and take rule of earth. And he is willing to prevent this by any means he deems needed. Is what he is doing of a villain or evil nature? Yes in the same way Mr. Freeze's actions were. The writers are purposely making the other side more and more heroic in attempt to bring justification for Batman's future actions. We've seen characters like Hawkgirl turn against good but we didn't know her that well. Batman we have followed since the very creations of the DCAU. He has always been on the right side of things. Even in A Better World he was the only Justice Lord to commit the right course of actions. And we have never seen him brainwashed in commiting a wrong deed... Ever. Now this disrupts everything we have ever felt about him. The hero that we have always known has now followed an evil and darker path.

[Casey Mack]

I realize that. That's why no matter what happens myself and the viewing audience will be rooting for Superman, and the Justice League itself, over Batman, and the government itself. For years people have viewed the Justice League as having two leaders or main heros, Batman and Superman. The difference between the two is one is in actuality the difference between night and day. Superman the great idealist, never willing to kill, always fighting for the little guy, always happy and joyful. The true product of the American son, growing up on a farm between two loving parents in Smallville, USA. Batman on the other hand is a realist. A darker figure who fights not out of love but from the pit of his own insanity and dark revenge. The closest thing he ever had to a father was Alfred but even at that he made himself what he is. He did what he did on his own and was willing to get what he felt had to be done no matter the cost towards others. And the only reason these twos were ever put together was due to their common goal of "good." But now that has changed. With many villains defeated it is both human and alien nature to make enemies out of themselves. Batman realizes what is happening and sees the possibility of Justice Lord rule. Although it still remains a possibility it is an outcome that is too great for it to left to chance. He sees the present as his only chance to stop the Justice League before they become too powerful and take rule of earth. And he is willing to prevent this by any means he deems needed. Is what he is doing of a villain or evil nature? Yes in the same way Mr. Freeze's actions were. The writers are purposely making the other side more and more heroic in attempt to bring justification for Batman's future actions. We've seen characters like Hawkgirl turn against good but we didn't know her that well. Batman we have followed since the very creations of the DCAU. He has always been on the right side of things. Even in A Better World he was the only Justice Lord to commit the right course of actions. And we have never seen him brainwashed in commiting a wrong deed... Ever. Now this disrupts everything we have ever felt about him. The hero that we have always known has now followed an evil and darker path.
well said my good man or woman well said indeed. But, though Amanda waller and her group want to kill the League, and im sure Batman will not be in for all that.

[Knight]

I guarentee you him and other human members of the Justice League are going to defect and Civil War will break out between the two sides within the Watchtower.
I dont think thats the issue at all . Batman isnt upset at people who have super powers. He is upset by what he sees as the Justice League making its own rules. Setting themselves up as a higher authority and dealing with individuals as they feel. Thats what he is worried about. That the team is making itself above the law.

By the end of the ep Batman realized that Amanda Waller had some legit concerns. Its not really a superpower vs non super power thing. Its The League's policys that are at the heart of the problem.

[Enemy Ace]

Good 'ol Hugo Strange. If Waller really does know who Batman is, I guess this must be how (If Bats didn't confuse him as badly as he hoped back in BTAS)