Battlestar Galactica - "Six Degrees Of Separation" Talkback (SPOILERS) [Archive]

James

02-20-2005, 01:10 AM

Eh, it smacked just a bit too much of No Way Out for me, and yeah, I'll complain about the sex--the way it constantly bounces me out of the show grates after awhile, especially now that the series has established itself enough to where it shouldn't need this kind of sensationalism.

There was a good story in the episode somewhere about what the Cylons beleive but it got burried under all the sex and the one millionth revelation that Baltar's Trapped In The Honeypot, a plot thread that seems to become more annoying and tedious the more screentime is devoted to it.

I'm still not getting the gratuitous sex in this show. All the sex scenes were relevant and non explicit. Any nudity or sexual tone is handly stylistically.

I mean, NYPD Blue had at least each cast member's butt at the end of each episode, every other drama that deals with the human condition deals with sex which is, to no surprise, high up there in relation to human interaction.

Battlestar Galactica deals foremost with the human condition over guns and dogfights. How we cope, how we interact, how we survive in hostile enviroments. Sex, is a big one of those elements.

Sex has always been a subversive weapon of war. With Boomer's scenerio being a little ambigious, the nature of Baltar's relationship is not unusual to time of conflict. Sex controls, and has controlled and subverted many men during wartime.

What's happening here isn't sensationalist, it's a part of what we are and what happens during war. I'm suprised it gets so much heat for the sex - no other genre seems to require such purity as scifi does.. :p Sad considering scifi is at foremost a look at human nature away from it's day to day enviroment. Humanity is quite often what scifi is all about, and unfortunately, sex is a BIG part of humanity!

Harley

02-20-2005, 01:14 AM

I don't watch much TV anymore. I really just expect things to stink fro the getgo. But I was genuinely surprised and really find myself enjoying this show.

Supremus

02-20-2005, 02:35 AM

I'm still not getting the gratuitous sex in this show. All the sex scenes were relevant and non explicit. Any nudity or sexual tone is handly stylistically.I couldn't agree more. It's really quite tame compared to many other TV shows, and it doesn't go anywhere near as far as a movie like Starship Troopers, which is quite similar in style. Maybe it's because I am from Europe, where we don't get scared by a little bit of nudity, which in fact Galactica doesn't really have, and it's certainly ridiculous to call it "sensationalism".

Ed Liu

02-20-2005, 09:39 PM

Howdy,

This show drives me and the missus up the wall. We've taken to watching it on tape because the commercials would drive us crazy, and we are ALWAYS left howling at the end of every episode because we desperately want another one.

I found it exceptionally interesting that the entire episode seemed to be a way to introduce faith to Baltar's life. Someone watching the first few minutes could have easily ended up turning it off in disgust, although putting those particular words against religious belief in Baltar's mouth weakens their impact considerably, IMO. In fact, the whole idea that the Cylons have a fervent belief in a god at the root of all their actions is one of the cooler concepts of the show. I'm really curious to see how it all turns out.

Tricia Helfer again impresses with her acting ability. I have to say the casting of the show is mightily impressive across the board.

I really liked the subplot about the Cylon raider, too. I wonder if the thing is still semi-conscious, and only reacting to Starbuck for some reason.

I think the sex part is integral to the Cylons' plans. Number 6 was talking about wanting a baby with Baltar. I think they've been keeping Helo alive because they want him to breed with Caprica Boomer and make a baby. Did it need to be that explicit? Well, maybe not, but I didn't think it was that over the top.

Finally, my wife and I suspected that Galactica Boomer was going to realize she was a Cylon, but grow to the point where she wanted to fight for humanity. Looks like we get our wish next episode (although, knowing these guys, I'm sure it's not what it looks like and is only going to leave us with more questions).

-- Ed/Ace

GMB

02-20-2005, 10:20 PM

I couldn't agree more. It's really quite tame compared to many other TV shows, and it doesn't go anywhere near as far as a movie like Starship Troopers, which is quite similar in style. Maybe it's because I am from Europe, where we don't get scared by a little bit of nudity, which in fact Galactica doesn't really have, and it's certainly ridiculous to call it "sensationalism".

I'm sorry you find my argument that it's sensationalistic, "ridiculous." I don't really care that you think so, understand, but it's unfortunate.

And I don't really care how things in Europe are, either, and I don't weigh the global standards for sex and violence when I make a critique of a show and express an opinion that's just as valid (and slightly more informed because you'll note I didn't have to use cheap dismissals like you did.) as yours. To imply that Europeans have some sort of enlightened attitude toward sexuality (or really, anything) is, frankly, a little insulting.

I find the sex sensationalistic, extraneous, and were it more suggested or alluded to, the show would be a lot better for it. Mostly ti just comes off as stupid and a waste of time that could be better spent.

I don't care that you assume some some puritanical bent unique to SF fans (another dimunition and a dodge to avoid accepting it as a valid criticism). I feel it's done in poor taste are mere titillation, and the rest of the show is good enough that it doesn't need to rely on stunts like that. This is Seven of Nine territory, really, and BSG at its best is above that.

And while I'm bursting balloons, let me address SJJ's point that "It's a fact of life." I must have missed the grand orgies that happened during wartime in my years of scholarship on the world wars. Besides, which, why have we seen all this boot-knocking, and very few deaths from disease or attacks by the Cylons, etc? The most we got in that direction was in "33" and those were offscreen so, who really cared? I would contend that death is far far FAR more integral to a war story than hot-n-juicy sex.

Now as I said before there was plenty in this episode I found fascinating--the ideas of Cylon theology could have stood to be developed a little more, that's what I wanted to see more of. Instead, the same old semi softcore porn aimed clearly at 14 year old kids well into the "sneak up on their right hand to mastrubate" phase of their adolescence that grated all through the miniseries reared its head, wrapped itself in a plot ripped whole and bleeding from a Kevin Costner movie, and sputtered to a halt and had me flipping channels about halfway through.

But apparently the amen corner is unwilling to accept that BSG can have a substandard episode and so my entire argument gets reduced to snotty Euro-centric "Oh those Americans, so tightassed about sex" commentary.

I found it exceptionally interesting that the entire episode seemed to be a way to introduce faith to Baltar's life. Someone watching the first few minutes could have easily ended up turning it off in disgust, although putting those particular words against religious belief in Baltar's mouth weakens their impact considerably, IMO. In fact, the whole idea that the Cylons have a fervent belief in a god at the root of all their actions is one of the cooler concepts of the show. I'm really curious to see how it all turns out.

And that's what I wanted this episode to be. It wasn't what it was, and it was the poorer for it, in my opinion.

Supremus

02-21-2005, 12:23 AM

I'm sorry you find my argument that it's sensationalistic, "ridiculous." I don't really care that you think so, understand, but it's unfortunate.Sounds like you care a little. :)

And I don't really care how things in Europe are, either, and I don't weigh the global standards for sex and violence when I make a critique of a show and express an opinion that's just as valid (and slightly more informed because you'll note I didn't have to use cheap dismissals like you did.) as yours. To imply that Europeans have some sort of enlightened attitude toward sexuality (or really, anything) is, frankly, a little insulting.Oh get over yourself. I was in no way implying that Europeans are better, more enlightened or whatever, but it's a fact that on this side of the pond, we tend not to get as wound up about nudity and sexuality as some Americans seem to do. It wasn't a dig at you or you nationality, just a reflection of my surprise that anyone could consider such mild sexual content to be offensive or some kind of sensationalism.

I find the sex sensationalistic, extraneous, and were it more suggested or alluded to, the show would be a lot better for it. Mostly ti just comes off as stupid and a waste of time that could be better spent.Baltar's sexual relationship with his imaginary friend is, and will be, relevant to the plot.

I don't care that you assume some some puritanical bent unique to SF fans (another dimunition and a dodge to avoid accepting it as a valid criticism).Again, it still sounds a bit like you care. :) Listen, I don't give any sexual content a clean pass just for the sake of it, but in this case it's relevant to the plot, and given the otherwise gritty and realistic nature of the show, I almost think it's too mild. Particularly the uni-sex shower room from the first episode, which had clearly been toned down. Again, I draw comparison to Starship Troopers, which had a far more naked shower scene, and this one seemed a little lame by comparison. They were obviously using that scene to paint a picture of an environment where the genders are equal, and it seemed like a cop-out, and a slight undermining of the message, when nobody was actually naked in there. There was even a guy seemingly showering in his underwear!?!? The same goes for the stupid replacement of a perfectly good swear-word with the ridiculous "frag", which completely ruins the illusion everything else has worked really well to build up.

And while I'm bursting balloons, let me address SJJ's point that "It's a fact of life." I must have missed the grand orgies that happened during wartime in my years of scholarship on the world wars.What??? Are you saying the American educational system would somehow have presented you with a sanitized and watered down account of those events??? That's just unbelievable! :)

Besides, which, why have we seen all this boot-knocking, and very few deaths from disease or attacks by the Cylons, etc? The most we got in that direction was in "33" and those were offscreen so, who really cared? I would contend that death is far far FAR more integral to a war story than hot-n-juicy sex. Right, "More death, less sex". If you're concerned about American stereotypes, that didn't help. :)

Instead, the same old semi softcore porn aimed clearly at 14 year old kids well into the "sneak up on their right hand to mastrubate" phase of their adolescence that grated all through the miniseries reared its head, wrapped itself in a plot ripped whole and bleeding from a Kevin Costner movie, and sputtered to a halt and had me flipping channels about halfway through.You actually think anyone is watching, or is drawn to this show, because of the sexual content?

But apparently the amen corner is unwilling to accept that BSG can have a substandard episode and so my entire argument gets reduced to snotty Euro-centric "Oh those Americans, so tightassed about sex" commentary.Sorry if I hit a raw nerve, and just so you don't think I'm just out to bully you, you are absolutely right that it was probably the worst episode of the series so far, but it wouldn't have been any better without all this horrible sex and nudity.

GMB

02-21-2005, 12:56 AM

Sounds like you care a little. :)

No, Faith No More "cares a lot." Get it straight. ;)

Oh get over yourself. I was in no way implying that Europeans are better, more enlightened or whatever, but it's a fact that on this side of the pond, we tend not to get as wound up about nudity and sexuality as some Americans seem to do.

Sure sounded that way. And it's hard to backpedal when your first sentance implores me to get over myself.

It wasn't a dig at you or you nationality, just a reflection of my surprise that anyone could consider such mild sexual content to be offensive or some kind of sensationalism.

But it is, I'm sorry to say. If BSG sold itself more as a more intellectual take on your standard SF opera that would be one thing, but damn near every promo I see for it has a couple all over each other, which when seen in the context of the episode, is some 90-second blip in between plot transitions. The show is better than this. Voyager was not, and yet, I seem to remember it being promoted the same way.

In lieu of being able to say this more directly, it feels like we should be above this kinda thing by now.

Baltar's sexual relationship with his imaginary friend is, and will be, relevant to the plot.

I think the relationship is a way more of delineating the guilt and fear that he'll be caught rather than its own story element and works best (at least for me) when it's used in that light.

Again, it still sounds a bit like you care. :)

Only for puppies and lovely flowers. ;)

Listen, I don't give any sexual content a clean pass just for the sake of it, but in this case it's relevant to the plot, and given the otherwise gritty and realistic nature of the show, I almost think it's too mild.

The problem is, the widespread randiness works against the realism for me. These people are ostensibly fighting for their lives, pursued by an implacable enemies . . .chucking that off for a little "seven minutes in heaven" flies in the face of the other elements on the show that are realistic and are, I should add pretty well-done. When BSG's is "on," it efftively captures the tension of real combat better than some actual shows i've seen about combat. That attention to detail should be spread out a little more.

Particularly the uni-sex shower room from the first episode, which had clearly been toned down.

I didn't sweat it that much. It wasn't that important to the plot.

Again, I draw comparison to Starship Troopers, which had a far more naked shower scene, and this one seemed a little lame by comparison.

But Starship Troopers (the movie) wasn't trying to be a "gritty, realistic combat movie," so your comparison is flawed. Starship Troopers was Verehoeven's parody of Triumph of the Will and 40's era American war movies.

The same goes for the stupid replacement of a perfectly good swear-word with the ridiculous "frag", which completely ruins the illusion everything else has worked really well to build up.

Well, "frag" is actual military slang, I just don't beleive it's used in quite that way.

What??? Are you saying the American educational system would somehow have presented you with a sanitized and watered down account of those events??? That's just unbelievable! :)

Well, the free parts I found a little wanting, sure. But the schooling I paid for later on in life filled in the blanks. One of which was that the upwing in procreation tends to occur after the cessation of hostilites. . .nnot before or during.

To be "realistic," you either hold everything to a strict standard or have no standard. You can't pick and choose and expect to have consistency in the final product.

Right, "More death, less sex". If you're concerned about American stereotypes, that didn't help. :)

Oh yes. Damn me for a fool for expecting a human cost to war. Silly me. When one undermines their own argument re:realism, perhaps one shouldn't stand on it at the time. I'm just saying is all.

You actually think anyone is watching, or is drawn to this show, because of the sexual content?

YES. And it ain't a good thing.

Sorry if I hit a raw nerve, and just so you don't think I'm just out to bully you, you are absolutely right that it was probably the worst episode of the series so far, but it wouldn't have been any better without all this horrible sex and nudity.

Well, sex and nudity isn't horrible, but here it was out of place. It's a sideshow and totally thwarts where the writers want to go as badly as if they had just randomly shuffled script pages prior to filming.

I gave this episode a repeat watch after I posted the aforementioned and I was really surprised by how close they were to really explaining what's going on in Baltar's head. Fear of getting found out has totally isolated him to the point where he has nothing, and utlimately makes a deal with the devil because worse than being caught for him is being alone.

That's characterization, that's way deeper than anything on television in many years, and that's the kind of thing BSG has shown me time and again since "Bastille Day."

But when it's all couched in sex terms, it stays on the surface and for me, doesn't work.

Supremus

02-21-2005, 01:59 AM

But it is, I'm sorry to say. If BSG sold itself more as a more intellectual take on your standard SF opera that would be one thing, but damn near every promo I see for it has a couple all over each other, which when seen in the context of the episode, is some 90-second blip in between plot transitions.I haven't seen any of the promos, but is it possible that they have given you a skewed perspective? Remember, the promos are made by the network and not the producers of the show. It's not difficult to make the show look a lot more naked than it really is.

I think the relationship is a way more of delineating the guilt and fear that he'll be caught rather than its own story element and works best (at least for me) when it's used in that light.The episode was in many ways a wasted opportunity, but I don't think it sacrifices plot and charaterisation for sex. Like I said, the episode would have been just as bad without the sex, which really didn't take up much actual screen time.

The problem is, the widespread randiness works against the realism for me.Naaah, it's a well documented psychological fact that, when under extreme pressure, not only do people tend to become closer and more intimate, but they will tend to do things that make them feel good and safe... bring on the sex! :) As long as they can find the time between battles, it's not at all unreaslistic.

I didn't sweat it that much. It wasn't that important to the plot.No, but it was a temporary lack of guts for an otherwise gutsy show. Maybe it was just because I recently watched Starship Troopers, and the uni-sex showers is such a direct comparison as a tool to establish the roles and balance of gender in their society.

But Starship Troopers (the movie) wasn't trying to be a "gritty, realistic combat movie," so your comparison is flawed.Yes and no. They still went to great lengths to try and preserve a realistic military feel, as opposed to "regular" sci-fi like Star Trek.

Well, "frag" is actual military slang, I just don't beleive it's used in quite that way. Exactly. It's just weird, it doesn't work as an expletive, and the idea of "fragging" somebody just brings up an unplesant mental image.

Well, the free parts I found a little wanting, sure. But the schooling I paid for later on in life filled in the blanks. One of which was that the upwing in procreation tends to occur after the cessation of hostilites. . .nnot before or during.There is a difference between procreation and recreation, and trust me, the second the bombs stop... :)

To be "realistic," you either hold everything to a strict standard or have no standard. You can't pick and choose and expect to have consistency in the final product.Yes, but then we get a problem with spaceships, robots and aliens. Everybody can draw their own lines, I guess. I think BSG for the most part gets the balance right.

YES. And it ain't a good thing.If anybody watched this for the sex, they're just stupid. There are far sexier things on TV, let alone the stuff you can get off the internet without having to sit through 45 minutes of Adama's muttering. I just don't buy that.

I gave this episode a repeat watch after I posted the aforementioned and I was really surprised by how close they were to really explaining what's going on in Baltar's head. Fear of getting found out has totally isolated him to the point where he has nothing, and utlimately makes a deal with the devil because worse than being caught for him is being alone.

That's characterization, that's way deeper than anything on television in many years, and that's the kind of thing BSG has shown me time and again since "Bastille Day."Yep, the characters are absolutely superb, and it all adds up to one of the best - if not the best - sci fi show on TV ever.

But when it's all couched in sex terms, it stays on the surface and for me, doesn't work.I think you might be obsessing. I just went through the episode and checked. The sex/nudity barely adds up to a minute and a half in a 40 minutes+ episode. It might just seem worse to you because of the tone set by the promos and the fact that the episode fell short in a number of other ways.

ManicWebb

02-21-2005, 03:00 AM

I'll give my opinion about the sexual content of this show. Somehow, I've avoided expressing it up to this point.

I think the main problem many people have with the use of sex on this show is that they show it. I think that if we had seen Baltar and Six kiss, then later cut to one of them buttoning up their shirt to leave, there wouldn't be too many complaints. We'd see that their relationship was a sexual one, and that's really the point. You can't say that Baltar and Six's relationship wouldn't have the same impact if they hadn't gotten under each other's skin... literally. Six is Mata Hari. She slept with the enemy, and stole their secrets. It's who she is. It's how she can control Baltar. Baltar's weakness is sex, and Six takes advantage of that as much as possible.

Now, what we're dealing with here are "graphic" sex scenes. Six and Baltar's relationship could've had the same impact if we hadn't seen Six actually climb on top of him and strap herself in for the ride. You don't see that kind of sex scene on TV too often. You might see the foreplay or the snuggling/conversation afterward, but something most Americans aren't used to on TV drama is rhythm. Especially sci-fi drama. It's shocking, and even a little off-putting, for some. That's why it comes off as a cheap shock-value device to get viewers.

But then, maybe we should see it to understand the plot. After all, why do Six's and Boomer's backs glow while they have sex?

I don't mind seeing the Six in Baltar's mind seduce him. It's his weakness, and it's what she's good at. It's the basis of their relationship. It's how she controls him, and I get that. But the actual sex scenes? It feels a little like I've walked into a porno when that happens. It's a little shocking, and I sorta get the feeling they could've done without it.

Is having sex in their situation even realistic? I think so. When Boomer and Helo bumped uglies, I wasn't surprised. I knew it was coming. They had sexual feelings for each other, no military regulations preventing them from going through with it, and they were in a situation where they needed to feel (even if temporarily) safe. It's the same with the crew of the Galactica. Baltar is practically a man-nymph by character, so what can you do there?

So yeah, I guess the sex in Battlestar Galactica is pretty necessary. It's the degrees in which they show it that I find a tad questionable. But let's be honest-- the human race has a population roughly equal to that of a small city. If they didn't start trying to multiply, I'd be a little worried.

halinar

02-21-2005, 08:43 AM

I don't give a flying (insert random word here) about the showing of sex on a tv show. I love the shield and rescue me so that's not a problem. The thing that bugs me is that it's just such a crutch. They know they are marketing to the male population who is stuck home on a friday night.... I can't call them cylons.. they were evil robots. These are just plug in sex toys.

GMB

02-21-2005, 12:00 PM

I haven't seen any of the promos, but is it possible that they have given you a skewed perspective? Remember, the promos are made by the network and not the producers of the show. It's not difficult to make the show look a lot more naked than it really is.

Uhm, not to be obvious, but yeah, they probably have, because that's what advertising does. It skews one's perspective.

The episode was in many ways a wasted opportunity, but I don't think it sacrifices plot and charaterisation for sex. Like I said, the episode would have been just as bad without the sex, which really didn't take up much actual screen time.

Well, I do. Unfortunately we're not gonna come to an accord on that. I feel like there was another, more effective way to do this, and that's not the way they took.

Naaah, it's a well documented psychological fact that, when under extreme pressure, not only do people tend to become closer and more intimate, but they will tend to do things that make them feel good and safe... bring on the sex! :) As long as they can find the time between battles, it's not at all unreaslistic.

It's also been documented that under extreme pressure people will eat one another, so really, we should be getting some cannibalism in between these battles too, shouldn't we?

No, but it was a temporary lack of guts for an otherwise gutsy show. Maybe it was just because I recently watched Starship Troopers, and the uni-sex showers is such a direct comparison as a tool to establish the roles and balance of gender in their society.

Uh . . .huh. You're reading a hell of a lot into one shower scene in Starship Troopers man.

Yes and no. They still went to great lengths to try and preserve a realistic military feel, as opposed to "regular" sci-fi like Star Trek.

Ehhh. . .well, I think for all the things they try to do "different," they come dangerously close to being like every other damn SF show out there, but that's another discussion.

There is a difference between procreation and recreation, and trust me, the second the bombs stop... :)

. . .You climb up out of the bomb shelter.

If anybody watched this for the sex, they're just stupid. There are far sexier things on TV, let alone the stuff you can get off the internet without having to sit through 45 minutes of Adama's muttering. I just don't buy that.

Well, let me ask you this. . .if people weren't watching it for the sex, then they wouldn't promote the show based on the sex, would they? Remember when Enterprise always had some lurid eye-catch in the promos? Well, once that quite being an effective draw, they started promo'ing more in a way based on the episode in question.

I think you might be obsessing. I just went through the episode and checked. The sex/nudity barely adds up to a minute and a half in a 40 minutes+ episode. It might just seem worse to you because of the tone set by the promos and the fact that the episode fell short in a number of other ways.

And I ask you, "in what parallel universe does pomotion not influence perception?"

This was a weak episode and as such probably did contribute to stronger reactions because there was nothing to take my mind off of the flaws, I'll give you that. But this whole business of "oh, the sex is realistic, the people who complain are prudes, shut up." misses the point by a mile or so.

It's not that it's realistic. People are having babies and making babies--thousands as I type these words. Doesn't mean I want to see it. The issue I've taken with the sex (and will continue to take) is that it's unneccessary, tacky, out of place with the rest of the tone of the show, and most of all . . .ain't sexy. And yes, it annoys me, because the rest of the show is good and I want the whole show to be that good.

Supremus

02-21-2005, 01:58 PM

Uhm, not to be obvious, but yeah, they probably have, because that's what advertising does. It skews one's perspective. Yes, but I haven't seen the promos, so I'm just seeing what little sex is in the show, and not what's jam-packed into these alleged 60 second, steamy, soft-porn promos produced by the network and not the producers of the show. With that in mind, you might say I see things more clearly with my un-skewed perspective.

It's also been documented that under extreme pressure people will eat one another, so really, we should be getting some cannibalism in between these battles too, shouldn't we?That's just nonsense. You are confusing extreme pressure with lack of food. There is plenty of food around, and with the exception of various German sex cults, canibalism tends to be out of extreme neccessity, not for recreational purposes.

Uh . . .huh. You're reading a hell of a lot into one shower scene in Starship Troopers man.Oh that's right, it was just there for titillation, of course. How silly of me.

. . .You climb up out of the bomb shelter.... and start boinking. :)

Well, let me ask you this. . .if people weren't watching it for the sex, then they wouldn't promote the show based on the sex, would they?For one thing, I don't know that they do promote it like that. For all I know they may have shown a brief glimpse of a glowing spine, and you were off to call the FCC.

I don't really watch promos, and I am certainly not denying there could be a few slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging, tobacco-chewing dimwits out there that find the prospect of seeing the side of a boob on TV immensely interesting, and are prepared to sit through 40 minutes of boring dialog and confusing pseudo-religious nonsense to see it, but if you did a survey of the people who actually do watch the show, I am quite confident you can count those who watch it for the sex on one hand.

It's not that I want hardcore sex and nudity all the time, I just always find it insulting to the viewers' intelligence when a TV couple is seen practically fully clothed after an off-screen sex scene. Now, I am certainly no expert on the subject, but according to the instructions I have downloaded off the internet, one of the first steps is to remove the woman's bra. It doesn't mention putting it on again afterwards, but maybe I am missing some pages? :) I think if you're going to deal with sex and nudity, there are still ways you can cover it up without pussyfooting (no pun intended) around the subject, and if anything, I think BSG tones it down too much. It seems odd that we can show people killing each other, but we can't see them having sex, because God forbid the kids should get any crazy ideas.

Remember when Enterprise always had some lurid eye-catch in the promos? ... no.

Well, once that quite being an effective draw, they started promo'ing more in a way based on the episode in question.So, again it's it a case of you being led to believe there was some sort of sexual content. Suddenly the results of your last few elections are starting to make more sense to me. :)

And I ask you, "in what parallel universe does pomotion not influence perception?" I will answer that with "in what parallel universe is perception considered reality?". The show is what it is, regardless of what a misleading promo has made you believe. Just because a soft drink suggests drinking it will make you more attractive to the opposite sex doesn't neccessarrily mean that's a reflection of reality. Believe me, I learned that the hard way. Damn you, Snapple, you false prophet.

This was a weak episode and as such probably did contribute to stronger reactions because there was nothing to take my mind off of the flaws, I'll give you that. But this whole business of "oh, the sex is realistic, the people who complain are prudes, shut up." misses the point by a mile or so.It's not so much that you are missing the point, like I said, I just found the reaction a little surprising, and I wonder if similar sexual content in the context of a far better episode would have been much of an issue. When I read complaints like these, I immidiately draw comparisons to the Janet Jackson NippleGate fiasco, and how incredible I thought the response to that was.

The issue I've taken with the sex (and will continue to take) is that it's unneccessary, tacky, out of place with the rest of the tone of the show, and most of all . . .ain't sexy.Huh? If it's not sexy, how can you say people are watching it for the sex? Surely, there would be more satisfying sexual content elsewhere?

I think what we've learned here is that you should stop watching the promos. :)

Ed Liu

02-21-2005, 04:39 PM

Howdy,

Before this gets too out of hand (some would argue it already has), let me point out that I thought the sex scenes in the mini-series right at the very start were gratuitous and unnecessary, until the Big Twist at the end when I realized that they were foreshadowing. Having Boomer jump the Chief at the start was the first hint that she wasn't human.

So far, every instance of sex that's been depicted on screen has involved a Cylon on one side. We've also seen that glowing red spine thing happen twice. In the mini-series, I looked at that as a way to tell that Number 6 was Not Human, but we knew Caprica Boomer is Not Human already. I think there's another reason why we're seeing it, and I'm even wondering if the sex is there as deliberate misdirection.

Everything I've seen in the series so far tells me that the producers aren't into doing things gratuitously. We don't get information on the show without cause, and we definitely don't get told things more than once without some reason behind it. For the moment, at least, I'm willing to just sit through the sex scenes and assume that there's going to be some reason for it all by the end of it.

Are they going farther than most other sci-fi shows do in depicting the deed? Yeah, probably, and I can understand if that bothers some people. However, if you think the show is otherwise too good for you to just stop watching, it might be wise to give the creators the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

As a side point, I find it equally interesting that the Cylons are so vividly embracing sex and religion, which are two things that are definitely not the sorts of things that you associate with machines.

-- Ed/Ace

DarkAngel

02-21-2005, 04:45 PM

Everything I've seen in the series so far tells me that the producers aren't into doing things gratuitously.Agreed. I've been watching the show, I've seen the promos, and honestly, sex is the last thing that comes to mind when I think of the show. Just on that level, I dont' think there's a problem. The sex aspect simply isn't standing out to me. It fits well with what they're doing.

James

02-21-2005, 07:19 PM

As a side point, I find it equally interesting that the Cylons are so vividly embracing sex and religion, which are two things that are definitely not the sorts of things that you associate with machines.
-- Ed/Ace Okay, first off, I think we all need to cool down, as patronizing as it sounds. I'm afraid I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't say that.

Secondly, I just want to address one comment:

And while I'm bursting balloons, let me address SJJ's point that "It's a fact of life." I must have missed the grand orgies that happened during wartime in my years of scholarship on the world wars. Besides, which, why have we seen all this boot-knocking, and very few deaths from disease or attacks by the Cylons, etc? The most we got in that direction was in "33" and those were offscreen so, who really cared? I would contend that death is far far FAR more integral to a war story than hot-n-juicy sex. Okay, first off, the reason we don't see disease and attacks - based on the story up to this point - is that the battle here seems to be more about ideology rather than destruction. The Cylons appear to have had the ability on both Caprica and in space to kill the humans all at a whim, but haven't. This story has been designed to flesh out (excuse the pun) a more emotional and less clear cut war. A war where the ambiguity seems to lie in perception than domination.

As for the point about ""It's a fact of life." I must have missed the grand orgies that happened during wartime in my years of scholarship on the world wars". I'm actually VERY shocked you said that. Sex, and control through sex has ALWAYS been a lynch pin of human struggle. It's been there subverting thrones and monarchs, it's been their controlling enemy officers and providing information to underground movements. All you need to do is look at WWII and you'll see how many wifes had to sell their bodies to get into the beds of officers to obtain hidden information to send back to the underground movements. This is all before we look at how sex controls politics...

Sex sells, controls and quite often conquers as it preys on human fragility. That's it's use in wartime and by the looks of it that's how it's used there.

Manicweb's point that we see more than we maybe should visually... I think you need some of the visuals. I think you need to see the "need" these people have. They have NOTHING. They have no hope, no future. Soldiers, whether they signed on or not.. they are fighting for their lives.. civillians, miltary alike. They are fighting against odds where there is little hope.. these brief moments of release are very real to people in these situations. People who had everything like Baltar, now have nothing.. how that affects someone and their ability to cope and adapt I personally think is fascinating. I find Baltar's head world, with it's mix of rich living and lust shows just that schism.

As for the European issue. Trust me GMB, Europeans are far less hung up on sex. Having lived in the US for a little while, lived in the UK and occasionally ventured onto the European continent, mainland Europe is far less worried about sex and it's visuals. UK sits somewhere in the middle and the US at the other extreme. I don't think Supremus meant to insult you, but there is a vast difference in the perception of sex, particularly on TV. You shouldn't be surprised that Europeans find the argument that this is gratuitous to be puzzling as for Europeans it is. :p Likewise, Europeans have to be careful not to presume that their attitudes are the only attitudes and appreciate that some aren't so laid back on the topic and bear that in mind when it comes to debating!

Happy families peeps!

GMB

02-21-2005, 11:36 PM

Okay, first off, I think we all need to cool down, as patronizing as it sounds. I'm afraid I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't say that.

Well, we're at loggerheads on this point, and it's clear that I'm just not in lock-step with this and we're sure as hell not gonna persuade one another so . . .yeah, we are sorta dancing in circles.

Now, working backwards . . .

Everything I've seen in the series so far tells me that the producers aren't into doing things gratuitously.

In the SERIES, I'd say "yeah, except for the Cinemax sex.". If you include the mini, then I call BS.

With that in mind, you might say I see things more clearly with my un-skewed perspective.

Or unable or unwilling to see the problem. Y'know, whichever.

That's just nonsense. You are confusing extreme pressure with lack of food. There is plenty of food around, and with the exception of various German sex cults, canibalism tends to be out of extreme neccessity, not for recreational purposes.

Have you ever read accounts of cannibalism? Most of them involve near-starvation, suffering due to adverse weather conditions jamming right up against the human will to survive . . .if that ain't "extreme pressure," I would be most interested in just how you define it.

Oh that's right, it was just there for titillation, of course. How silly of me.

You're thinking of Showgirls now. ;)

For one thing, I don't know that they do promote it like that. For all I know they may have shown a brief glimpse of a glowing spine, and you were off to call the FCC.

Because everyone who disagrees with you is a prudish crank, I see, I was on the phone to my friends in the PTC. Uh-huh. Sure.

I don't really watch promos, and I am certainly not denying there could be a few slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging, tobacco-chewing dimwits out there that find the prospect of seeing the side of a boob on TV immensely interesting, and are prepared to sit through 40 minutes of boring dialog and confusing pseudo-religious nonsense to see it, but if you did a survey of the people who actually do watch the show, I am quite confident you can count those who watch it for the sex on one hand.

Hopefully not that hand, but I gotcha. The problem is, the core fanbase isn't enough to sustain a show and they have to constantly branch out, and in this post-reality age, people will watch the most godwaful crap in the name of the mere possibility of seeing some booties being busted. I wish it were different, but that's how it seems to be.

I just always find it insulting to the viewers' intelligence when a TV couple is seen practically fully clothed after an off-screen sex scene.

Well, yeah, but even American TV has progressed beyond those days. Now they're mostly holding their sheets in scenes like that.

Now, I am certainly no expert on the subject, but according to the instructions I have downloaded off the internet, one of the first steps is to remove the woman's bra.

I thought it was "remove your skis." You've got version 5.2, yeah?

Manicweb's point that we see more than we maybe should visually... I think you need some of the visuals. I think you need to see the "need" these people have. They have NOTHING. They have no hope, no future. Soldiers, whether they signed on or not.. they are fighting for their lives.. civillians, miltary alike. They are fighting against odds where there is little hope.. these brief moments of release are very real to people in these situations. People who had everything like Baltar, now have nothing.. how that affects someone and their ability to cope and adapt I personally think is fascinating. I find Baltar's head world, with it's mix of rich living and lust shows just that schism.

Well, put that way, my problem is that if a quickie in a toolshed is all you have to look forward to, that's a problem. In the original series, there was at least the implication that the fleet's quest for survival was rooted more in a spiritual context--goofy as it sounds, they were looking for a better world, and just happened to have polished chrome with guns on their butt while they did it. I realize in this new century we're all supposed to be hard-bitten and realistic and scoff at idealism on that level, but if they're enduring all this just for sex . . . ah well, it's kind of a letdown from a character standpoint.

As for the European issue. Trust me GMB, Europeans are far less hung up on sex.

There's more of it on their TV,sure, but that's a rather sweeping generalisation to make. Besides which, it's counterpoised by their phobia about violence. Whole other argument, that.

Likewise, Europeans have to be careful not to presume that their attitudes are the only attitudes and appreciate that some aren't so laid back on the topic and bear that in mind when it comes to debating!

Which brings us back to the fact that essentially we're at loggerheads on the "gratuitous, yes or no?" question. It's one of those things we're really not gonna see eye to eye on, I fear.

Supremus

02-22-2005, 01:32 AM

Well, we're at loggerheads on this point, and it's clear that I'm just not in lock-step with this and we're sure as hell not gonna persuade one another so . . .yeah, we are sorta dancing in circles.And what a sexy, sexy dance it is.

Or unable or unwilling to see the problem. Y'know, whichever.Sorry, I win this one. You said promos skew your perspective, and with less than 2 minutes worth of sex/nudity in the episode in question, the jury finds in favor of Supremus. Case closed. Bailiff, remove the prudish crank. :)

Have you ever read accounts of cannibalism? Most of them involve near-starvation, suffering due to adverse weather conditions jamming right up against the human will to survive . . .if that ain't "extreme pressure," I would be most interested in just how you define it.Let's keep this in context, shall we? By extreme pressure, I was obviously only referring to what they have to endure on the show. There is no real shortage of food, and there would be no need to eat each other (spot the pun).

You're thinking of Showgirls now.I am sooo trying not to. Now there's a movie where I would have preferred everybody kept their clothes on.

Because everyone who disagrees with you is a prudish crankOn this subject, yes, probably. I'm sorry, but if you come out this hard (leave it) against sex and nudity, you sort of put yourself in that category. Maybe not so much the crank category, as that's a slightly derogatory term, and you seem to be taking my abuse in a reasonably good spirit, but "prude" is a fairly neutral and descriptive term. I am always happy to yield to a good argument, but it seems like you are mostly attacking this based on a general dislike of sexual content. You have in no way successfully argued that it isn't necessary or relevant to the plot or the situation they are in.

The problem is, the core fanbase isn't enough to sustain a show and they have to constantly branch out, and in this post-reality age, people will watch the most godwaful crap in the name of the mere possibility of seeing some booties being busted. I wish it were different, but that's how it seems to be.I'm sure that's true for a very small minority of people, but I hardly think the Sci Fi channel is what immediately springs to mind when those people go boob-surfing through the channels, and it's a moot point anyway, if the promos don't accurately reflect the tone of the show.

Well, yeah, but even American TV has progressed beyond those days. Now they're mostly holding their sheets in scenes like that."Progressed" is the key word here. A continued acceptance of these things is inevitable. I could get into a long rant about exactly what is behind people's fear or sex and nudity, but that would be boring. I am all in favor of sheet-holding, btw. I don't need to see bits dangling in the wind, but I think they need to do what's appropriate for the tone of the show, which is why I think BSG is toning it down too much. Like someone else mentioned, the sexual content of a show like The Shield is far more appropriate to the kind of realism it's otherwise trying to get across.

Well, put that way, my problem is that if a quickie in a toolshed is all you have to look forward to, that's a problem.That's not the case. I don't need the sex and nudity for any personal gratification. If that were the case, there are far better outlets for that sort of thing, but I really do understand what some movie producers mean when they say it's integral to the plot or the type of movie they're doing, while some will dismiss such an explanation as just an excuse for some sort of personal perversion. If you compromise or tone it down too far in the context of a story where it's relevant, you lose the realism and the ability to tell the story in a credible way.

In the original series, there was at least the implication that the fleet's quest for survival was rooted more in a spiritual context--goofy as it sounds, they were looking for a better world, and just happened to have polished chrome with guns on their butt while they did itI'm all for idealism. If that's the kind of show you're doing, by all means leave out the sex. The original series was far more adventure based. BSG is trying to show the reality and the human side of this particular story. Humans have sex, and it has historically been used by women to get what they want, which is what Six is doing with Baltar. That element of the story simply would not be credible if we didn't see a least a little bit of them going at it, and again, less than 2 minutes barely even amounts to "a little bit". Much like we saw Baltar cheat on Six, getting his libido across (oh dear) is necessary to establish how this supposed genius could be exploited by such a weakness.

I realize in this new century we're all supposed to be hard-bitten and realistic and scoff at idealism on that level, but if they're enduring all this just for sex . . . ah well, it's kind of a letdown from a character standpoint.Oh come on, you are painting a completely misleading picture. For one thing, having sex is not the goal of their mission, it's a tool being used by the Cylons. There are two or three couples on the show, and only Baltar and Six really get any sexual screen time, and it's not even all that much.

There's more of it on their TV,sure, but that's a rather sweeping generalisation to make. Besides which, it's counterpoised by their phobia about violence. Whole other argument, that.Phobia about violence??? Now you're just making stuff up. Again, at the risk of generalising, we tend to have a more realistic view on violence, but we don't shy away from it. In European movies, people lose teeth when punched, and more often that not, they even die from gunshot wounds. In short, for the most part we treat violence responsibly and show its consequences. In most American movies, people often get into big macho-fights where a right-hook to the jaw usually produces a sound similar to hitting a tree with a baseball bat, and the effect is promptly shaken off and followed by a series of punches back and forth that would have induced coma in the real world. Some people might suggest that most Americans wouldn't have much of a reaction to being punched in the head, but I would strongly discourage and distance myself from such rhetoric. :)

And for the record, I do like a good American Hollywood fight, but let's not assume that Europeans are pansies just because we can't take a punch as well as you guys.

Which brings us back to the fact that essentially we're at loggerheads on the "gratuitous, yes or no?" question. It's one of those things we're really not gonna see eye to eye on, I fear.Well, then I'm going to have to remind you that it's against the forum rules to disagree with me on major issues such as sex, violence, and anything involving spaceships. Mods, remove the prudish crank. :p

See ya next week for the big debate on gratuitous violence.

Ed Liu

02-22-2005, 10:41 AM

Howdy,

Okay, first off, I think we all need to cool down, as patronizing as it sounds. I'm afraid I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't say that.
Sorry...I geniunely didn't mean to be offensive or inflammatory with my latest round of comments, but I can see how they could be taken that way. Let's just say that the Cylons aren't your average robots with a Pinocchio complex and leave it at that.

I am curious why I can't include the mini-series in considering the overall arc of the show, though, since they were made by the same people and the first episode of the show pretty much picks up straight where the mini left off. I'd even say that the show makes little sense without the mini.

The latest round of Q&A with Ron Moore (http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/02/index.html#a000020) is up at SciFi.com, which obliquely addresses some of these questions, along with the news that Season 2 is confirmed and they're working on the next six episodes. Unfortunately, he won't talk about the direction of S2 until all the episodes have aired in the US, so the European contingent is out of luck there.

There's also one humdinger of a coincidence in there about Helo, but that's neither here nor there.

(And, BTW, it's "frack" or "frak," not "frag." Fragging comes from "fragmentation grenade." During Vietnam, it took on the meaning of using one in a staged accident to eliminate an excessively gung-ho commanding officer, and has since been adopted by the on-line gaming community to mean a particularly noteworthy kill.)

-- Ed/Ace

GMB

02-22-2005, 01:08 PM

Sorry, I win this one. You said promos skew your perspective, and with less than 2 minutes worth of sex/nudity in the episode in question, the jury finds in favor of Supremus. Case closed. Bailiff, remove the prudish crank. :)

. . .I'm sorry, the Night Court talkback is a few pages down.

Let's keep this in context, shall we? By extreme pressure, I was obviously only referring to what they have to endure on the show. There is no real shortage of food, and there would be no need to eat each other (spot the pun).

Context is at the very heart of my beef with the sex scenes, so beleive me, I'm keeping my eye firmly fixed upon it. Nevertheless--extreme pressure is extreme pressure. Cannibalism and excessive horniness are effects, the pressure is the cause, but as both causes are equally valid . . .why is one valued over the other?

I am sooo trying not to. Now there's a movie where I would have preferred everybody kept their clothes on.

True that. Still, it was the best episode of Saved By The Bell like, ever.

On this subject, yes, probably. I'm sorry, but if you come out this hard (leave it) against sex and nudity, you sort of put yourself in that category. Maybe not so much the crank category, as that's a slightly derogatory term, and you seem to be taking my abuse in a reasonably good spirit, but "prude" is a fairly neutral and descriptive term. I am always happy to yield to a good argument, but it seems like you are mostly attacking this based on a general dislike of sexual content. You have in no way successfully argued that it isn't necessary or relevant to the plot or the situation they are in.

Eh, I wouldn't say I'm a prude (if you knew my actual occupation you'd find the juxtaposition somewhat amusing) but I do have specific notions of where sexual content does and doesn't belong. If this sort of stuff was in, say a Bond film, I wouldn't complain because it fits comfortably into that milieu--it's 007, there's supposed to be risque sex and violence in equal measure. It's part of the ride you bought the ticket for.

When in BSG, which is otherwise (let's be honest) a fairly downbeat and hard-bitten show where most of the characters are portrayed as very restrained people trying to keep together an inherently unstable situation, and then there's this ba-chikka-wa sex scene jammed in the middle of it working totally opposite to what surrounds it . . .well, it feels really out of place.

Again, we're talking about context here.

I'm sure that's true for a very small minority of people, but I hardly think the Sci Fi channel is what immediately springs to mind when those people go boob-surfing through the channels, and it's a moot point anyway, if the promos don't accurately reflect the tone of the show.

I'm willing in good faith to concede the "promo" question, as it's not limited to the SciFi channel, and besides which, in earlier days the promos for "Farscape" hardly mentioned the sexual content of the show very much at all, because I think the argument re: context is the real point of all this.

"Progressed" is the key word here. A continued acceptance of these things is inevitable. I could get into a long rant about exactly what is behind people's fear or sex and nudity, but that would be boring. I am all in favor of sheet-holding, btw. I don't need to see bits dangling in the wind, but I think they need to do what's appropriate for the tone of the show, which is why I think BSG is toning it down too much. Like someone else mentioned, the sexual content of a show like The Shield is far more appropriate to the kind of realism it's otherwise trying to get across.

Yeah, but again, we're back to context. I can cut Shield slack for its content because I go in knowing that in that milieu, it's to be expected, and for the story it's trying to tell, it's appropriate to character. In the same fashion, the harshness or outright torture of a show like "Deadwood" or "OZ" is appropriate within its milieu, simply because, it's approprate to its element. You buy the ticket, take the ride, as the good Doctor said.

That's not the case. I don't need the sex and nudity for any personal gratification. If that were the case, there are far better outlets for that sort of thing, but I really do understand what some movie producers mean when they say it's integral to the plot or the type of movie they're doing, while some will dismiss such an explanation as just an excuse for some sort of personal perversion. If you compromise or tone it down too far in the context of a story where it's relevant, you lose the realism and the ability to tell the story in a credible way.

Again, but it's all down to context once again, isn't it? Sexual content is neccessary in some movies, in others, much less so. If your movie is about infidenlity and the effects of it on a marriage and family (like, let's say American Beauty) yes, a certain amount of sexual content is justified. In much the same way it wouldn't be justified in say, a Rugrats movie.

I'm all for idealism. If that's the kind of show you're doing, by all means leave out the sex. The original series was far more adventure based. BSG is trying to show the reality and the human side of this particular story.

In a sense, yes it was. The original (at its best, which was all too rare, but again, another thread entirely) has other elements beyond just being "shoot em up of the week" at least in terms of concept. Thing of it is, the idealism and religious/spiritual context, kept the more downbeat elements of the show at bay.

Humans have sex, and it has historically been used by women to get what they want, which is what Six is doing with Baltar.

Ahhhh. . .but only sometimes. Sometimes Six will simply just bully or shame Baltar into doing what she wants, playing on his guilt or his vanity, which is a little outside merely yanking him by his todger, and far more interesting and watchable, in the same ways as the Crichton/Scorpius relationship was in "Farscape," to compare.

That element of the story simply would not be credible if we didn't see a least a little bit of them going at it, and again, less than 2 minutes barely even amounts to "a little bit". Much like we saw Baltar cheat on Six, getting his libido across (oh dear) is necessary to establish how this supposed genius could be exploited by such a weakness.

But Baltar has other weaknesses than his libido, tho. Had it been emphasized in the mini and maybe alluded to later on, I coulda let it slide, but every time it roils back to the surface it feels . . .well, tired.

Oh come on, you are painting a completely misleading picture. For one thing, having sex is not the goal of their mission, it's a tool being used by the Cylons. There are two or three couples on the show, and only Baltar and Six really get any sexual screen time, and it's not even all that much.

But it bothers me in that the sex is just sorta there. Yes it's a tool by the Cylons, but why? So far it's only been on the surface, hence me complaining about it. If the sex has to be there and is justified by the show's mandate, well, show me.

Phobia about violence??? Now you're just making stuff up. Again, at the risk of generalising, we tend to have a more realistic view on violence, but we don't shy away from it. In European movies, people lose teeth when punched, and more often that not, they even die from gunshot wounds.

And yet, and admittedly this is reaching back a little, a movie like the original Dawn of the Dead which takes violence to ridiculous extremes was severely cut in some places. I'll admit that not all Europe is in lock-step on this--no continent that came up with the giallo film can be that phobic, so I'll concede that it's as much of a generlisation as, well, you thinking I'm a prude.

Some people might suggest that most Americans wouldn't have much of a reaction to being punched in the head, but I would strongly discourage and distance myself from such rhetoric. :)

We save that for the David Lynch movies, mostly. ;)

And for the record, I do like a good American Hollywood fight, but let's not assume that Europeans are pansies just because we can't take a punch as well as you guys.

Never said y'all can't. :) See Giallo reference above.

Well, then I'm going to have to remind you that it's against the forum rules to disagree with me on major issues such as sex, violence, and anything involving spaceships. Mods, remove the prudish crank. :p

Yes, but you invoked that rule in the boomerang zone, which means all the powers of metaphysical certitude are actually mine and hence, it is you who must be removed. ;) It's amazing how much TZ is like Calvinball. A-F'N-Mazing.

Duke

02-22-2005, 01:29 PM

I thought we were dropping this...

Supremus

02-22-2005, 01:38 PM

Context is at the very heart of my beef with the sex scenes, so beleive me, I'm keeping my eye firmly fixed upon it. Nevertheless--extreme pressure is extreme pressure. Cannibalism and excessive horniness are effects, the pressure is the cause, but as both causes are equally valid . . .why is one valued over the other?Apart from the fact that starting to eat each other would be pretty counter-productive to their overall mission, seeing as there are less than 50.000 of them left, that would be a pretty unlikely result, despite the pressures they are under.

Now, there are very few studies that deal with the psychological effects of near-annihilation of an entire species, so I can't really offer any reference material here, but the BSG people seem to have made their peace with it, and their main concern is the Cylons on their tail. There is absolutely now way that sort of pressure would lead to cannibalism, unless there was an acute shortage of food. You have been following the lib'ral media too closely if you think that's what the pressures of war do to people.

Eh, I wouldn't say I'm a prude (if you knew my actual occupation you'd find the juxtaposition somewhat amusing)I can only go by your comments here, but maybe I will emphasise "crank" over "prude", then. :p

When in BSG, which is otherwise (let's be honest) a fairly downbeat and hard-bitten show where most of the characters are portrayed as very restrained people trying to keep together an inherently unstable situation, and then there's this ba-chikka-wa sex scene jammed in the middle of it working totally opposite to what surrounds it . . .well, it feels really out of place.

Again, we're talking about context here. Not all the characters are the same, in fact Baltar is quite different from most of them in many ways, and when it has been established throughout the series and the mini that he is suffering from IPS (Itchy Pants Syndrome), I find it to be perfectly fine and relevant to what Six is trying to achieve.

I'm willing in good faith to concede the "promo" question, as it's not limited to the SciFi channel, and besides which, in earlier days the promos for "Farscape" hardly mentioned the sexual content of the show very much at all, because I think the argument re: context is the real point of all this.That's just because the religious right would've thrown a hissy-fit if you had promos for muppets having sex. :)

I haven't actually seen Farscape, so I can't comment on or compare any of its sexual content.

But it bothers me in that the sex is just sorta there. Yes it's a tool by the Cylons, but why? So far it's only been on the surface, hence me complaining about it. If the sex has to be there and is justified by the show's mandate, well, show meWait and see. I guarantee you it's coming, but I can't tell you without spoiling it.

Yes, but you invoked that rule in the boomerang zone, which means all the powers of metaphysical certitude are actually mine and hence, it is you who must be removed. It's amazing how much TZ is like Calvinball. A-F'N-Mazing.[/... I will get back to you on that one, but you get a point for invoking Calvinball rules. You're still trailing, though :-)

James

02-22-2005, 03:54 PM

I thought we were dropping this...
Hehe, as long as they can keep nice I don't think there is a problem, it's pretty on topic still, just keep it respectful to each other guys.. it went a little nasty early on so as long as it remains mutually respectful and on topic, I think the debate is a welcome and relevant one.

And Ed, I wasn't referring to your comments going a bit off base.. more the two others who won't be named (simply because you'd have to be blind to not see where the debate was in here.. ;))

GMB

02-22-2005, 11:43 PM

I thought we were dropping this...

Now that I know it annoys you so, I personally have new vigor to continue. Thanks for contributing so much to the debate! :)

Apart from the fact that starting to eat each other would be pretty counter-productive to their overall mission, seeing as there are less than 50.000 of them left, that would be a pretty unlikely result, despite the pressures they are under.

Nevertheless, assuming that both sex and cannibalism are both reactions borne of extreme stress, if we're assuming one is realistic . . .why not the other?

Now, there are very few studies that deal with the psychological effects of near-annihilation of an entire species, so I can't really offer any reference material here, but the BSG people seem to have made their peace with it, and their main concern is the Cylons on their tail. There is absolutely now way that sort of pressure would lead to cannibalism, unless there was an acute shortage of food. You have been following the lib'ral media too closely if you think that's what the pressures of war do to people.

Liberal, shmiberal. ;) That's a bigger myth than homical horny Cylons, but, again, another debate for another time. Well, we've sorta seen what happens in the midst of a water shortage thus far . . .I'm just offering an example is all.

I can only go by your comments here, but maybe I will emphasise "crank" over "prude", then. :p

I prefer "Jacobean Malcontent," but that's a lot to ask someone to type, really.

Not all the characters are the same, in fact Baltar is quite different from most of them in many ways, and when it has been established throughout the series and the mini that he is suffering from IPS (Itchy Pants Syndrome), I find it to be perfectly fine and relevant to what Six is trying to achieve.

Well, I think there's a deeper dimension to what's wrong with Baltar than merely he's led by his groin. One of the things I most enjoyed about the miniseries was how completely we got a picture of what an arrogant egotist he is. In fact, there was some of that in the episode (his reaction to the idea of a "god" f'rinstance) but I feel like the "IPS" (which, credit where it's due, is a hatefully nasty term I learn to enjoy as the seconds tick by) is a cop-out and keeps things on the surface to the detriment of the story they're trying to tell.

That's just because the religious right would've thrown a hissy-fit if you had promos for muppets having sex. :)

Nahh, just the Muppet nipples. That's why they cancelled Fraggle Rock y'know. Damn nekkid Doozers ruined it for everyone.

I haven't actually seen Farscape, so I can't comment on or compare any of its sexual content.

It was pretty blatant in terms of implied sex They didn't show as much as often as BSG seems to, but who was doing whom was a fairly active plot-thread. Where it parts ways with BSG was that it worked within the milieu and seemed to be grounded in some sort of context.

Wait and see. I guarantee you it's coming, but I can't tell you without spoiling it.

OK then. I'll make you a deal. If when this revelation comes and it turns the key, I will publicly retract my criticism of the overt sex. I don't mind being proven wrong, I'm just releived the attempt will be made to contextualize the sex in relation to the rest of the show.

... I will get back to you on that one, but you get a point for invoking Calvinball rules. You're still trailing, though :-)

I thought the score was now oogy to boogy, and I already had oogy. ;)

And Ed, I wasn't referring to your comments going a bit off base.. more the two others who won't be named (simply because you'd have to be blind to not see where the debate was in here.. )

Oh SJJ, you know I'm your hero. ;)

Supremus

02-23-2005, 01:09 AM

Now that I know it annoys you so, I personally have new vigor to continue. Thanks for contributing so much to the debate!Yep, that seems like as good a reason as any to keep going.

Nevertheless, assuming that both sex and cannibalism are both reactions borne of extreme stress, if we're assuming one is realistic . . .why not the other?I never said cannibalism wasn't realistic, but it's simply not relevant to their situation. Sex is a far more common occurrence under various circumstances, and theirs are certainly no exception.

Unpleasant as it is, war and the danger of being killed by some sort of attacker is actually a daily issue for a lot of people around the world at the moment, but it's a situation where you have options. You can run, you can fight, you can gain protection by others, etc, etc. Suddenly finding yourself in a situation with no food, and the only way to survive is to kill and eat one of your own, is an extremely rare scenario, and the lack of options makes it a completely different and almost unimaginable kind of pressure. I am not saying there isn't a good story to be told with such circumstances, and it would certainly be an interesting scenario given their already dwindling numbers, but in their current situation, there is no way it could be used to the same extent as sex.

Well, we've sorta seen what happens in the midst of a water shortage thus far . . .I'm just offering an example is all.Sure, but that's still very different. Despite what my girlfriend would have you believe, extreme pressure and the threat of dying are not the only factors that can compel people to have sex. Cannibalism would be a last resort in an end-of-the-road scenario, while sex is just something you do when there is nothing good on TV.

Well, I think there's a deeper dimension to what's wrong with Baltar than merely he's led by his groin. One of the things I most enjoyed about the miniseries was how completely we got a picture of what an arrogant egotist he is. In fact, there was some of that in the episode (his reaction to the idea of a "god" f'rinstance) but I feel like the "IPS" (which, credit where it's due, is a hatefully nasty term I learn to enjoy as the seconds tick by) is a cop-out and keeps things on the surface to the detriment of the story they're trying to tell.There is no doubt Baltar has a lot of issues, and if you actually start adding it up, most of those have actually gotten considerably more screen time than his IPS. The one thing that bothers me most about the guy is that he is supposed to be this legendary genius, and he doesn't come across as being particularly smart.

Nahh, just the Muppet nipples. That's why they cancelled Fraggle Rock y'know. Damn nekkid Doozers ruined it for everyone.Ok, so you have now succeeded in destroying my innocent childhood memories of Saved By The Bell and Fraggle Rock. Wanna take a stab at The Smurfs too?

OK then. I'll make you a deal. If when this revelation comes and it turns the key, I will publicly retract my criticism of the overt sex. I don't mind being proven wrong, I'm just releived the attempt will be made to contextualize the sex in relation to the rest of the show.Deal. In the meantime, let's agree that even if you find the sex unnecessary and inappropriate for the tone of the show, and even if SciFi use as promotional tool, it's a stretch to describe it as "sensationalist". For that to be the case, it would have to push some boundaries and have a degree of shock value. You might not like it, but it's still relatively mild.

I thought the score was now oogy to boogy, and I already had oogy.That's because you're still not counting my obvious landslide victory on the cannibalism subject.

GMB

02-23-2005, 01:40 AM

Yep, that seems like as good a reason as any to keep going.

Considering enough of these posts (yes, even the ones that aren't mine) are motivated by some brand of anger, indignation, rage, or mild irkishness, beleive me, it's as good a reason for anything on TZ. A little known fact about TZ is it's powered by VBulletin, piss, and vinegar, in that order.

I never said cannibalism wasn't realistic, but it's simply not relevant to their situation. Sex is a far more common occurrence under various circumstances, and theirs are certainly no exception.

Problem being, your motivation for saying so hinges on "these are extreme circumstances," under which a LOT of things can happen, not just sex. So if you accept one extreme manifestation as possible, you have to accept the others, even if they may be less likely.

Unpleasant as it is, war and the danger of being killed by some sort of attacker is actually a daily issue for a lot of people around the world at the moment, but it's a situation where you have options. You can run, you can fight, you can gain protection by others, etc, etc. Suddenly finding yourself in a situation with no food, and the only way to survive is to kill and eat one of your own, is an extremely rare scenario, and the lack of options makes it a completely different and almost unimaginable kind of pressure. I am not saying there isn't a good story to be told with such circumstances, and it would certainly be an interesting scenario given their already dwindling numbers, but in their current situation, there is no way it could be used to the same extent as sex.

Probably not, but again, if one is possible under the circumstances, you still have to accept the other, again, the difference hinges soley on the likely probability of one over the other.

Sure, but that's still very different. Despite what my girlfriend would have you believe, extreme pressure and the threat of dying are not the only factors that can compel people to have sex. Cannibalism would be a last resort in an end-of-the-road scenario, while sex is just something you do when there is nothing good on TV.

But. . .against the TV, surely the cable box is forever jamming into the small of your back. I'm not disputing the option, mind, I'm just saying . . .there are pillows, surely.

There is no doubt Baltar has a lot of issues, and if you actually start adding it up, most of those have actually gotten considerably more screen time than his IPS. The one thing that bothers me most about the guy is that he is supposed to be this legendary genius, and he doesn't come across as being particularly smart.

Smart, well, yeah, he is. The flaw in his character is that he's nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is. To compare him to another s/f character he most resembles DS9's Dukat in that he's constantly failing to live up to the image he projects--he thinks he's great, so what's your problem, he seems to say.

Ok, so you have now succeeded in destroying my innocent childhood memories of Saved By The Bell and Fraggle Rock. Wanna take a stab at The Smurfs too?

I'll just ask this: "Smurfs. Mammals or egg-layers?"

Deal. In the meantime, let's agree that even if you find the sex unnecessary and inappropriate for the tone of the show, and even if SciFi use as promotional tool, it's a stretch to describe it as "sensationalist". For that to be the case, it would have to push some boundaries and have a degree of shock value. You might not like it, but it's still relatively mild.

Done and done. Now, on my side of this, if the explanation turns out to be really cheesy and facile, then I get to call a spade a spade and pillage and burn. I'm giving it a chance here, and will hold my tongue until the facts are in. But they better be mightily impressive and logical facts. :)

That's because you're still not counting my obvious landslide victory on the cannibalism subject.

Supremus, you know as well as I do when it comes to cannibalism, nobody wins. ;)

Supremus

02-23-2005, 02:29 AM

Problem being, your motivation for saying so hinges on "these are extreme circumstances," under which a LOT of things can happen, not just sex. So if you accept one extreme manifestation as possible, you have to accept the others, even if they may be less likely.Maybe we got our wires crossed here, but a few posts back it seemed to me like you dismissed the sex as being unnecessary under the circumstances, and said that if the pressures they were under caused them to have sex, they should also be eating each other. That just didn't work for me, as it's not strictly speaking the pressures that are driving them to sex, I was only saying it wasn't unrealistic, and that it was also historically a tried and tested way for certain people to acquire information.

Now, the writers could come up with any number of scenarios where cannibalism became relevant, but they haven't, and we can only go by what we've got so far, anything else is just hypothetical and irrelevant, and the fact that some of them develop sexual relationship is perfectly reasonable under the circumstances.

Smart, well, yeah, he is. The flaw in his character is that he's nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is. To compare him to another s/f character he most resembles DS9's Dukat in that he's constantly failing to live up to the image he projects--he thinks he's great, so what's your problem, he seems to say.The thing is, Baltar must be an almost Einstein, Hawking or Supremus level genius since a grunt like Helo recognised him and thought he was so crucial to the survival of the species that he was prepared to give up his seat to save his life. Then again, in the mini-series, we found out that Six helped him with a lot of his work, some of which actually exceeded his abilities, so maybe he has been bluffing his way to genius status.

I'll just ask this: "Smurfs. Mammals or egg-layers?"Oh dear.

Done and done. Now, on my side of this, if the explanation turns out to be really cheesy and facile, then I get to call a spade a spade and pillage and burn. I'm giving it a chance here, and will hold my tongue until the facts are in. But they better be mightily impressive and logical facts.Oh, so now we're raising the bar, eh? :) I don't think sex needs to be justified by some sort of earth-shattering revelation. I'm not saying that we will or won't have such an event, just that I think the case for it has already been made, but we will see what you think about the events as they unfold.

GMB

02-23-2005, 11:39 AM

Maybe we got our wires crossed here, but a few posts back it seemed to me like you dismissed the sex as being unnecessary under the circumstances, and said that if the pressures they were under caused them to have sex, they should also be eating each other. That just didn't work for me, as it's not strictly speaking the pressures that are driving them to sex, I was only saying it wasn't unrealistic, and that it was also historically a tried and tested way for certain people to acquire information.

I'm just saying if you allow that one is possible under extreme stress, then so is the other, the only question is which is more likely. As for using seduction and other forms of sexual coercion, that's a whole other agrument and really falls more under the rubric of "torture," even though it's pretty far from the "car battery connected to the nipples" school we often think of torture as.

Now, the writers could come up with any number of scenarios where cannibalism became relevant, but they haven't, and we can only go by what we've got so far, anything else is just hypothetical and irrelevant, and the fact that some of them develop sexual relationship is perfectly reasonable under the circumstances.

Well, maybe so. I come back to context on this, again. Every other part of the show seems to have this steely-eyed realism and resolve, and yet the sex kinda . . .sticks out. (so to speak ;) ) It seems like it belongs in a wholly different show. It's a matter of conext, if it sticks out and seems like it doesn't belong, then I label it "sensationalistic." Just to clarify that point.

The thing is, Baltar must be an almost Einstein, Hawking or Supremus level genius since a grunt like Helo recognised him and thought he was so crucial to the survival of the species that he was prepared to give up his seat to save his life. Then again, in the mini-series, we found out that Six helped him with a lot of his work, some of which actually exceeded his abilities, so maybe he has been bluffing his way to genius status.

Baltar's gift, I always figured from what we saw in the mini, had more to do with his skill at self-promotion than with actual genius--sure, he was reasonably intelligent, but managed to make himself seem even more of a find by being a canny publicist. One of the reasons I feel like his bugged-out borderline madness stems more from a fear of being found out--about his role in the genocide, about the fact he's not that much of a genius after all, and that he only gets off with really sexy toasters. That's how I read it, anyways.

Oh, so now we're raising the bar, eh? :)

Well, maybe just giving people hope I'll shut up eventually. Whichever works best for you. :)

I don't think sex needs to be justified by some sort of earth-shattering revelation. I'm not saying that we will or won't have such an event, just that I think the case for it has already been made, but we will see what you think about the events as they unfold.

Well, you know, an explanation that makes sense will do, as there's an awful lot about the Cylons that haven't been filled in yet (there's still more than a few of the 13 models to be seen, the question of why their fighters have organic components, etc.) and some of that needs to be explained before long. So any forward motion on that that maybe at least makes a token effort to make me see "Yeah, I guess they did need all the sex after all," then I'll withdraw my objection. :)

Supremus

02-23-2005, 12:14 PM

I'm just saying if you allow that one is possible under extreme stress, then so is the other, the only question is which is more likely.SEX!!! SEX, DAMMIT!!! :) It takes very little pressure to facilitate, it's quite normal in many situations, cannibalism is not.

Well, maybe so. I come back to context on this, again. Every other part of the show seems to have this steely-eyed realism and resolve, and yet the sex kinda . . .sticks out. (so to speak ;)) It seems like it belongs in a wholly different show. It's a matter of conext, if it sticks out and seems like it doesn't belong, then I label it "sensationalistic." Just to clarify that point.I thought Baltar's entire little fantasy world stuck out, actually, but I guess that's the point, as it's his escape from the dark, gritty, shaky-cam reality he otherwise has to put up with.

Baltar's gift, I always figured from what we saw in the mini, had more to do with his skill at self-promotion than with actual genius--sure, he was reasonably intelligent, but managed to make himself seem even more of a find by being a canny publicist. One of the reasons I feel like his bugged-out borderline madness stems more from a fear of being found out--about his role in the genocide, about the fact he's not that much of a genius after all, and that he only gets off with really sexy toasters. That's how I read it, anyways.You read it correctly.

Well, maybe just giving people hope I'll shut up eventually. Whichever works best for you.I thought we were doing this to annoy Duke?

Well, you know, an explanation that makes sense will do, as there's an awful lot about the Cylons that haven't been filled in yet (there's still more than a few of the 13 models to be seen, the question of why their fighters have organic components, etc.) and some of that needs to be explained before long. So any forward motion on that that maybe at least makes a token effort to make me see "Yeah, I guess they did need all the sex after all," then I'll withdraw my objection. :)I thought the lack of emphasis on the Cylons from the mini to the actual series was a little strange, and what happened to their ability to deactivate the enemy's ships? I vaguely seem to remember something about Galactica running on Duracels, or their computers weren't networked, but I am not sure we ever got a real explanation.

raykremer

02-23-2005, 02:48 PM

Geez Louise. This epsiode with a big Twilight Zone-ish "Was the Six in Baltar's head actually walking around the ship interacting with everyone?" conundrum, and you people are hung up on the sex? Grow up.

The same goes for the stupid replacement of a perfectly good swear-word with the ridiculous "frag", which completely ruins the illusion everything else has worked really well to build up.
"Frak," you mean? That's no worse than what Farscape did. I think fictional swear words is genius.

James

02-23-2005, 06:44 PM

"Frak," you mean? That's no worse than what Farscape did. I think fictional swear words is genius.
Not so sure on that myself. I commend the attempts, but rarely do they help a scene, more hinder them. The worst was Babylon 5's brief attempt to introduce "stroke" as a futuristic version of a popular word in our common tongue... "stoke off" was heard a couple of times... or "get your stroking butts out of here.." and the ilk.. not good.

Personally I'd rather they just kept the swearing to TV minimum and just have the "hells" and "damns" than make up more profane words which stick out like a sore thumb..

GMB

02-23-2005, 11:56 PM

Geez Louise. This epsiode with a big Twilight Zone-ish "Was the Six in Baltar's head actually walking around the ship interacting with everyone?" conundrum, and you people are hung up on the sex? Grow up.

Uh huh. A plea for maturity on a board named "Toonzone." In a thread discussing a show about robots and spaceships. Yeah. Thanks for reminding me of the total lack of irony stalking the world in this Year of our Lord 2005. :)

SEX!!! SEX, DAMMIT!!! :) It takes very little pressure to facilitate, it's quite normal in many situations, cannibalism is not.

Except in zombie movies. Hey, being stalked by the hungry undead is pretty damn stressful if you ask me, and they're forever interrupting tender moments. You ever tried to bash some ghoul's brains in with a shovel while your pants are around your ankles and a hot redhead waiting in your El Camino?

No, neither have I. Moving on.

I thought Baltar's entire little fantasy world stuck out, actually, but I guess that's the point, as it's his escape from the dark, gritty, shaky-cam reality he otherwise has to put up with.

I can relate to needing a break from the shaky-cam myself. That thing's the live-action version of Squiggle-vision . . .migranes from the driveway to the highway.

You read it correctly.

And when it's down to that, it's pretty good. Callis has a hard row here for an actor--too much and he's over the top (too much above too much and he's Brian Blessed, but again, another discussion for another thread) too little or indicating the wrong thing and the reason for his psychosis (and really, that's what it is by this point) becomes inexplicable.

I thought we were doing this to annoy Duke?

Why stop with just one person? If the Death Star taught me anything, man, it's to think BIG.

That, and a big well-lit sign that says 'Please Do Not Deposit Flaming Articles In The Death Star.'

I thought the lack of emphasis on the Cylons from the mini to the actual series was a little strange, and what happened to their ability to deactivate the enemy's ships? I vaguely seem to remember something about Galactica running on Duracels, or their computers weren't networked, but I am not sure we ever got a real explanation.

Clearly, Galactica has the N-Jammer Canceller, and that thing can do ANYTHING, man. ;) No, really I don't know either. I vaguely remember when I watched the miniseries that the Cylon control method was a lot like the Blaster worm--it devastated higher-grade systems but an older OS (like Windows 95) could survive an attack unscathed.

The thing about their computers not being networked does sound familiar though, so that's probably the more canonical answer than my rather specious comparison. ;)

As for the whole thing with the fake swear-words, yeah, B5 tried it for awhile in the first 2 or 3 seasons, then just stuck with "damn" and "hell." I don't see it as a big deal--there's already a certain amount of suspension of disbeleif, considering as a viewer you buy that they're all speaking English (even though on some subconscious level, they're not) or in the case of Doctor Who BBC-approved Queen's English.

. . .and I'm disappointed in ALL OF YOU that no one has yet mentioned "Felgercarb." ;)