Did The Gray Ghost exist before BTAS?

[Russkafin]

I always assumed that "The Gray Ghost" was created for Batman The Animated Series... but, I was re-reading To Kill A Mockingbird (my little brother is reading it for school), and Jem and Scout talk about trading a "Gray Ghost" with Dill if Jem will touch Boo Radley's house. It sounds like they are talking about a book but I'm not sure. Is this a pre-existing character in fiction that the BTAS character was based on, or something completely unrelated?

[FALLEN ELDOR]

I thought the Gray Ghost was BTAS an amalgam of Crimson Avenger and The Shadow...

[The Weed Of Cri]

Back in the 1930's before the image of the costumed superhero really came into popularity, many comic-book heroes drew heavily on the conventions of popular pulp fiction, especially the "hero pulps" like The Shadow, Doc Savage, and Captain Future. The Crimson Avenger, as seen in JLU, is wearing his original "Shadow-ish" costume, very different from the tights-and-cowl look he favored with The Seven Soldiers of Victory. The Gray Ghost is a reference to that type of hero; there were a lot similar-sounding heroes in the pulps and comics: Green Hornet, Black Hood, Red Bee. I think the quote from "To Kill A Mockingbird" is Harper Lee's reference to the popularity of that kind of hero among kids. That could be where the writers for B-TAS got the name (and I admit I'm just speculating, here.)

[El Zorro]

The Crimson Avenger, as seen in JLU, is wearing his original "Shadow-ish" costume,
Not that this has any real impact on what you're saying, but the Crimson Avenger resembles the Green Hornet much more than he does the Shadow. In fact, the comics version is very obviously based on the Green Hornet character, down to his Asian chauffeur/side-kick.

Ok, I'm done being obsessive, I'll go away now...

[BonyT]

I think the quote from "To Kill A Mockingbird" is Harper Lee's reference to the popularity of that kind of hero among kids. That could be where the writers for B-TAS got the name (and I admit I'm just speculating, here.)But that's a very reasonable speculation, I'd say. :)

I had always assumed that the Gray Ghost was in large part a stand-in (perhaps because of copyright issues) for one of the actual major influences for Kane & Finger on Batman's look -- that being your namesake, El Zorro. Specifically, Les Daniels (Batman: The Complete History) cites The Mark of Zorro (Douglas Fairbanks, 1920) as an unquestioned inspiration. (Incidentally, Frank Miller gives a tip-o-the-hat to this in TDKR, although he uses the Tyrone Power version of The Mark of Zorro.)

[El Zorro]

Specifically, Les Daniels (Batman: The Complete History) cites The Mark of Zorro (Douglas Fairbanks, 1920) as an unquestioned inspiration.
Oh absolutely. Zorro--both the film and literary version--was definitely a huge influence on Batman. (Interestingly enough, in the Fairbanks movie Zorro accesses his secret HQ through a door hidden behind a grandfather clock. Sound familiar?). Though I wouldn't discount the influence of the Shadow on Finger and Kane when they created Batman. There were a couple early 70s comics that teamed the Shadow with Batman & it was revealed that the Shadow was a hero of sorts to Bruce. I had assumed that the Grey Ghost story was a nod to these issues, but it very well could be seen as a nod to several of Batman's influences.

http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/batshadow01.gifhttp://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/batshadow02.gif




(Incidentally, Frank Miller gives a tip-o-the-hat to this in TDKR, although he uses the Tyrone Power version of The Mark of Zorro.)
Which makes perfect sense if you think about it. The Tyrone Power movie came out in 1940. Assuming they saw it when it was released, if Bruce was around 10 when his parents died--as he was said to be in the earliest tellings--he would have been born in 1930. In TDKR Bruce is said to be 55 years old, which would place the story around 1985 (the year prior to TDKR's publication), which makes some sense since Ronald Reagan was president in that story.

[BonyT]

(Interestingly enough, in the Fairbanks movie Zorro accesses his secret HQ through a door hidden behind a grandfather clock. Sound familiar?).Yeah -- now that you mention it, I think Daniels actually referred to the Fairbanks Zorro's clock entrance in Batman: The Complete History.

Also, how about the Phantom (the Ghost Who Walks, not the Stranger)? Did he exist in some form before Batman, perhaps in newspaper strips? I was thinking I read (perhaps in Daniels -- it's been a while, so I can't be sure) about his look being an influence on Kane & Finger as well. His costume is depicted as a fairly distinct purple nowadays, but in the oldest examples of him that I've seen, in that limited color palette that was used in newspaper comics, the color is indistinguishable from the "gray" color of the oldest Batman costumes. The Phantom also has those blank white eyes traditionally used (aside from Ross) for Batman.



Which makes perfect sense if you think about it. The Tyrone Power movie came out in 1940. Assuming they saw it when it was released, if Bruce was around 10 when his parents died--as he was said to be in the earliest tellings--he would have been born in 1930. In TDKR Bruce is said to be 55 years old, which would place the story around 1985 (the year prior to TDKR's publication), which makes some sense since Ronald Reagan was president in that story.Heh, heh -- guess it's my turn to return a nitpick here, El Zorro ;) . Miller actually establishes, in Batman: Year One and TDKR, that Bruce is 6 years old the first time he accidentally falls into the cave, and that 2 years later (age 8) is when his parents are murdered. ... I'm not sure if Miller is the one who kind of set that age figure in stone, but it seems to me that he's the first one I saw state that figure (but I'm not a big comics reader in general); and it seems like the times I've seen it specified since then, it was always that same age 8.

[El Zorro]

Also, how about the Phantom (the Ghost Who Walks, not the Stranger)? Did he exist in some form before Batman, perhaps in newspaper strips?
The Phantom debuted in 1936, so he could likely be an influence as well.



Heh, heh -- guess it's my turn to return a nitpick here, El Zorro ;) . Miller actually establishes, in Batman: Year One and TDKR, that Bruce is 6 years old the first time he accidentally falls into the cave, and that 2 years later (age 8) is when his parents are murdered. ... I'm not sure if Miller is the one who kind of set that age figure in stone, but it seems to me that he's the first one I saw state that figure (but I'm not a big comics reader in general); and it seems like the times I've seen it specified since then, it was always that same age 8.
DOH! And I knew that too... well, it sounded good for something I pulled out of my rump! :) ... I do find it interesting that Bruce's age at the time of the murders has been so fluid over the years, fluxing between about 6 and 10 depending on who's telling the story.

[BonyT]

DOH! And I knew that too... well, it sounded good for something I pulled out of my rump! :) And certainly your point about Miller's use of the Tyrone Powers' Zorro is a good one, regardless of Bruce's exact age. :)

I think, though, that Zorro is probably the most obvious influence on Batman's look: the black color in general, the mask on half of the face, and of course the long, flowing cape.

... Btw, as I'm sure you already know, Kane's original vision of Batman involved a black and red costume and a large fixed-wing glider on his back, inspired by Leonardo da Vinci's "ornithopter," which does closely resemble bat wings. (It was Finger who convinced him that, while the ornithopter would indeed allow Batman some form of flight, it would be terribly cumbersome once he landed, precluding any real ability to move and take action; and so Kane was persuaded to go with the cape -- which still appears wing-like in some of the earliest drawings. Finger also famously pulled out a dictionary and showed Kane an illustration of a bat, convincing him to add the bat "ears" to the side of the cowl.) I've always wondered if perhaps the look used for the costume in Batman Beyond, with the red Bat symbol and the retracting wings, was a bit of a nod to Kane's original design ideas. ... Hey, maybe b.t. could tell us, if he sees this. :)

[The Weed Of Cri]

Not that this has any real impact on what you're saying, but the Crimson Avenger resembles the Green Hornet much more than he does the Shadow. In fact, the comics version is very obviously based on the Green Hornet character, down to his Asian chauffeur/side-kick.

Ok, I'm done being obsessive, I'll go away now...For the record, The Shadow had a chauffeur, too. His name was Shrevie. He was more popular on the radio show than he was in the pulps, but he did pop up in the prose stories from time to time.

The Shadow, who made his debut in 1931, actually predates mostly every one of the characters discussed in this thread except Zorro, whose first appearance was in a pulp novella called The Curse Of Capistrano, written by Johnston McCulley in 1912. Zorro is probably the most seminal example of what we now accept as the pop-fiction "superhero", although one might also make a credible case for Sherlock Holmes: he was an oddball character who worked outside the law, fought crime, was possessed of extraordinary mental and physical talents, and even had a distinct "costume" of sorts with his deerstalker cap and Inverness cape.

[El Zorro]

For the record, The Shadow had a chauffeur, too. His name was Shrevie. He was more popular on the radio show than he was in the pulps, but he did pop up in the prose stories from time to time.
Ah, true. But the Shodow had a large number of operatives working for him. While both the Green Hornet and The Crimson Avenger had a single sidekick, both of whom were Asian and were the hero's chauffeur in thier civilian ID (I could be wrong, but I think Shrevie was a Taxi driver and not Lamont Cranston's chauffeur) That was the similarity I was getting at. The Green Hornet with Kato in turn had been a (then) modern take on the Lone Ranger and Tono, both having been created by the same people & the Green Hornet being established as the Lone Ranger's grand-nephew.



The Shadow, who made his debut in 1931, actually predates mostly every one of the characters discussed in this thread except Zorro, whose first appearance was in a pulp novella called The Curse Of Capistrano, written by Johnston McCulley in 1912.
Hmm I would have to look it up, but I seem to recall that The Curse of Capistrano was first published in serial form around 1918/1919. I know the Fairbanks movie was made very shorty after it first appeared. But that's still over a decade prior to the Shadow's debut, so I guess its not that important.

[Arsenal]

Did a little research, and the only "Gray Ghost" I can find was a Confederate soldier named Col. John S. Mosby who led guerilla raids against Yankee troops. I doubt this correlates with the Batman character, but it might have something to do with the initial comment in "To Kill a Mockingbird." Perhaps Gray Ghost was southern slang for something.

[Anthonynotes]

The Phantom debuted in 1936, so he could likely be an influence as well.


DOH! And I knew that too... well, it sounded good for something I pulled out of my rump! :) ... I do find it interesting that Bruce's age at the time of the murders has been so fluid over the years, fluxing between about 6 and 10 depending on who's telling the story.

In most versions I've read, Bruce was 8 when his parents were killed.

For the Golden Age Batman, per my 1986/87 copy of "Secret Origins" retelling his origin, Bruce's parents were killed in the mid-1920s, with Bruce and his family having seen the Fairbanks version of Zorro...

The Silver and Modern Age Batmen probably just saw a re-release of the version mentioned above, or some just-released version of a Zorro film with actors unique to Earth-1/the post-Crisis DCU, given the floating timeline-thingies in place in the Silver/Modern Ages...

-B.

[FALLEN ELDOR]

When was the green Hornet first introduced? Also Don't you think that the Lone Ranger was an early example of the costumed hero?

[titanic_sux]

according to the mythology Green Hornet and Lone ranger are related

[Tim Drake]

According to JLU Kids Stuff

Batman: I haven't been a kid since I was eight years old.

Just more to confirm Batman lost his parents at 8.

[PuppetMaster21J]

According to JLU Kids Stuff

Batman: I haven't been a kid since I was eight years old.

Just more to confirm Batman lost his parents at 8.
Also, in JL "A Better World", Lord Batman mentioned that "...no eight-year-old kid will ever lose their parents because of some punk with a gun."... but I believe I found a comic reference somewhere that said he was 10... I'll find out tomorrow, methinks...

~Joe

[90'sCartoonMan]

Funny, my mom always told me the Gray Ghost was one of the teachers she had in high school.

[Michael24]

(I could be wrong, but I think Shrevie was a Taxi driver and not Lamont Cranston's chauffeur)
Yeah, Shrevie was just a cabbie. He didn't spend his free time hanging around the Cranston Estate, he was out like any other cabbie, but would return to assist Lamont whenever he needed a lift somewhere. (Also because Lamont had some of his costumes and gadgets stored in hidden compartments in the back seat. :) )