Justice League Unlimited "The Ties That Bind" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Bird Boy]

Say it with me: "Oh My God! Flash Returns!"


http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/talkback.jpg (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/)

Episode #15 - The Ties That Bind
Original Airdate - February 12th 2005

The world's greatest escape artist needs help from the Flash in order to break a deadly enemy out of an inescapable prison on an alien planet.

Comments?

[Stewie]

At 7:29 I turned to Cartoon Network to watch Justice League, but instead they are airing a parody of Justice League. When are they playing the real episode, not this joke?

[MJC]

Best. One-liners. Ever.

[Juu-kuchi]

They need a Flash/Booster Gold/Elongated Man focused episode.

It's good to see the Flash again, and boy how much the JLU has become bureaucratic nowadays.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Flash and Elongated Man sitting aorund and complaining about being underutilized was a great scene. Flash is back, and he's kicking assess and taking names on Apokolips.

[Duke]

Ah, Flash, how I've missed you.

*Awaits Matt Wilson's rant against Flash this time.*

"The whole world is a prison you dum-dums!" I never thought I'd hear a serious villian say "dum-dums!"

[Squall]

Flash returns! They mention that Darkseid's been absent since "Twilight"! Granny Goodness! We see Barda in her pre-JLU (Batman Beyond era) days! I absolutely love continuity. :D It enriches stories, especially when part of a large franchise such as the modern DCAU.

Who was this Adolf Hitler-wannabe that tried to take over Apokolips?

The Flash, Kalibak, Barda, Granny Goodness... their characters were all spot-on with all their previous modern DCAU appearances. :)

It was cool to see J'onn in action again! Though his voice doesn't sound quite right for some reason...

Yet another 5-star episode! JLU rocks!

[Killtacular]

I didn't watch this episode, mostly because I know bad when I see it approaching with guns ablazing and all hell's fury that comes from therein. But I'm a little disappointed upon glazing at it, as the animation has regressed back to.. well.. crap. Generic fighting animation, but not just that. Bad character acting in general. And one shot of them running down the corridor just looked all wrong. But next week looks like it's back to the standard presented last week, so here's hoping.

[Mr_Millions]

A very entertaining and engaging episode. I especially liked the beginning-- it reminds me of something the henchmen would say in "The Venture Bros." "No fair, the green guy's arms are longer!"

Not only was this episode a pretty solid return for the Flash, it introduces Mr. Miracle, who I must say seems like a very cool character. Apokolips is always a fun setting for an episode. I can tell whoever created it and the charaters that inhabit it really enjoyed themselves.

Great Ending, too.
"I wanted the green one"

Don't we all

[Batman Fan]

Whoa, great disguise, props to MM. Not a bad episode, seeing Flash was definetly the spotlight of this episode, the little opening scene with Elongated Man was great! I'm glad someone got to slug Granny Goodness, I really don't like her. The ending was cute too, MM wanting to play with Flash and wanting to be the green one:D Good episode, can't wait for next week's.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Flash was great in this episode. Barda too, and especially Mr. Miracle. I liked how they also included all of those flasbhacks in this episode. Granny Goodness was used in a good and interesting way.

Also, Elongated Man comments on having done the superhero thing longer than Flash. I guess that means in DCAU he was around even before Superman, Flash, and possibly Green Lantern were.

[Casey Mack]

i loved this episode very good animation and the characters all were so great together. I give it a 4 out of 5.
________
Zx14 vs hayabusa (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_bike_is_quicker_kawasaki_zx_-14_or_suzuki_hayabusa)

[Strollymonster]

Flash returns, and with the same gripes the fans have..."I was one of the original seven!"

Ha, Battle Robots.

Yikes, Granny's back again.

Who is the Vunderbar dude, and why is he running Apokolips?

Ending was a nice touch.

"I was only going to ask if you wanted to play Battlin' 'Bots."

"Dibs on the green one!"

"...I wanted the green one."

Not awesome, not horrible.

[Juu-kuchi]

Okay. Not exactly the greatest episode, but it's a good standalone episode that brings back Apokolips as well as give dimension to the members of the JLU that hail from that corner of the universe. The ending had a nice twist to it, and maybe this is a foreshadowing of the Flash maybe coming back more often than not.

Ah, the last new episode for a while... Maybe we get speaking roles for the Shining Knight, Vigilante, and the Atom Smasher judging from their prominence in the episode previews.

[Rabi~en~Rose]

wow now thats how a JLU episode should be! this was very really extra good! :)

+ Flash being awesome
+ continuity!
+ Mr Miracle childhood flashbacks
+ goofy wannabe Hitler "dumdums!"
+ Jonn!

- writers trying to make Flash as annoying as possible his one liners in the second segment were bad
- Mr Miracle has no taste or color coordination (for his costume)

[Jack Frenzy]

Who was this Adolf Hitler-wannabe that tried to take over Apokolips? One of Granny's "successful former students," Virman Vundabar.

"The New Gods are power beings -- but on Apokolips their power is maintained by lesser entities! And from these emerge interesting personalities!! Like Granny Goodness, Virman Vundabar..."

Mister Miracle (1st Series) #7

[Phantasm]

and the point of this episode being?:sad: :sad: :sad:

Just a waste of 30 mins and Flash's character. They decide to showcase him after an entirety of a season and this is what we are met with?!:sad: :sad:

Micheal Rossenbuam could make a perfect real-live Flash.Come to think of it, with that costume on Flash practically looks bald and very much reminiscent of Lex.

But even Flash's super lively presence couldn't salvage this episode from making me drown in boredom. :sad:

1.5 stars, but only coz Rossenbuam is so hot.;) :p

oh and the animation was embarrasingly bad!:eek: :ack:

[Kino]

Flash's return and the snappy one-liners made up for somewhat sloppy animation, but do you know what made this episode watchable?

Granny Goodness.

Best Superman Villain Ever, and you can quote me on that.

[Robert McSantos]

Verman Vundabar sprach nicht Deutsches! Nicht sogar mieser Babel Fisch-Deutscher! Ein was für Überbrücker.

[Metallo]

I give this episode 4.5 stars (out of 5), with the extra half star going for seeing the Flash back in action!

About time they got the Flash back into the fray!

Some great one liners (with Jeremy Pivin as Elongated Man was a nice touch). And nice to see even Martian Manhunter gets to leave the Watchtower for a quick bit of action.

Loved how they portrayed Big Barda and Mister Miracle. I liked the sequences from Mister Miracle's past, showing how the adolescent learned some of his escape artist tricks and mentality. Here is hoping we get to see this duo again in the future.

[Doomsday]

Flash gets lines and J'ohn gets out of the watchtower. Not an great episode but not bad. The villian was very corny but I'm sure they tried to make him that way. He seemed like someone James Bond would fight with him destorying his base trying to kill them. Good to see whats going on in Apokolips now Darkseid is gone. Next weeks episode looks awesome. I'll rate this episode later, need to watch it again to give it a fair rating.

[JWangSDC]

I must confess, my favorite part was the preview for next week. Looks like they're using the annihlator as part of the conspiracy against the JLU...

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Holy Kirby tributes Batman! Flash finally shows up too. And Barda too. It was neat but I didn't think the story was all that interesting.

[Nanashi]

A great romp. It was just plain fun (which it seems, to me, like some posters on here have forgotten to HAVE while watching this show).

Flash came back with a bang. I mean, what more could a fan ask for? He was in-character, he kicked ass, and he was more than comic relief. Not only that, but you get a bit of character development in the beginning of the ep.

I'm happy. And I can't find a good enough complaint for this episode to justify giving it anything less than 5 stars.

Not ALL episodes have to be dramatic masterpieces, you know.

(Also: Absolutely LOVED LOVED LOVED when Flash breaks the wall out. Barda yells, "Flash!" and he pops his head back in and replies, "What?" Awesome.)

[Sue]

The Hitler-esque goof reminded me of the Nazi clowns on Hogan's Heroes. Which isn't to say I didn't enjoy this - I did :cool: Mr. Miracle's a babe unmasked, and Barda should go skull-bashing with Wonderwoman, Hawkgirl, and Supergirl sometime. Flash doesn't come to mind when I think of a New Gods team-up, but he worked well here. I liked his "red tornado" trick; it's always neat to see him use his speed for other things besides running.

[Fone Bone]

I'm a little confused as to how Matt Wilson can say this episode was horrible without having watched it.

I liked it though I REALLY wish Flash hadn't been in the same boat as Booster Gold, Wildcat, and Elongated Man. He really ought to be one of the most respected members of the league.

Heh! J'onn want to be the green robot.

Did I mention how much I missed him? Even if he got little respect he used his powers to their full benefit. Maybe b.t. is right about him being too powerful.

Yay! J'onn is on a mission!

Interesting that Darkseid has been missing since Twilight. If they DO eventually bring him back I want an explaination as to where he's been.

It was great they managed to get all the old time DCAU voices back: Farrah Forke, Ed Asner, and Micheal Dorn. One of my biggest gripes with Justice League was all the recasting they did with the voices. Then again Micheal Rosenbaum is a hundred times better than Charlie Schlatter.

I really liked this episode and am glad the Flash is back. I was right that there would be no explaination as to his absense in season one. Take that GMahler!:p :D (joking!)

Score: ****.

[Temple Fugate]

Extra 1/2 star for FLASH!!!!

Mr. Miracle and Big Barda were cool. Though Barda got a tad too obnoxious for my liking. (Not nearly annoying enough as Oboron, though. Glad he was captured for most of this. ;) )

Lots of good dialogue in this episode. I liked how Big Brada first said "I thought you were dead!" in a relieved tone, then she got angry about it. "You insufferable showboat! I thought you were DEAD!" Some of their lines weren't as good as others, but overall I liked the back-and-fourth diatribe.

This episode had a very Lost feel, with all of Mr. Miracle's flashbacks. We don't usually get backstory through flashbacks on JL, to which I'm very glad (flashbacks have become a sort of crutch for mediocre writers who don't know how else to characterize people). But here, Mr. Miracle gets good characterization in the past AND present.

Now, about Flash...DUDE! He was at his best since "A Better World." Great one-liners ("I love smashing robots!"). I forgot he hadn't been to Apokolips yet. "Should have brought my sunscreen." I'm very pleased to see the writers openly dealing with why we haven't seen Flash lately. (Since he's been "sidelined" by the bigger boys, he's spent his time getting good at Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots.) I would have still loved him in this episode even if we hadn't gone through Flash withdrawl last season. "I can't believe I'm the mature one here." I could quote him all night.

The last few minutes of the episode were the best. Once we find out MM was impersonating Kalibak, he owned the situation. And he ended the episode with another great line. "I wanted the green one." Aaaww... :crying: This episode flat-out ruled, first with Flash, then with a bit of MM action.

"Interestink...but futile." Dang, this is a quoteable episode!

Justice League 4x02: "The Ties that Bind" - ****

VUNDERBAR!

[DLM]

Four stars, from me. It was great to see Flash in action again, back complete with snappy one liners. The twist at the end with J'onn impersonating Kalibak actually caught me by suprise, which not many so-called suprise endings on TV do. J'onn quietly mumbling "I wanted the green one" was laugh-laugh-out loud funny. Its amazing how the Apocalypse related episodes always seem to have good writing. Of course, there's always that thought in the back of your mind "How come a guy from Apokalypse has a German accect?" But then again ya just gotta accept that as part of the Kirby world package.

Overall, an enjoyable and fun little episode.

[FunTurtle]

When Flash said "Dibs on the green one!" I laughed, and misheard MMs line of "I wanted the green one." I thought he said "I AM the green one." Either ones funny, but upon rewinding it, I heard it. :p Meh.

[screw on head]

Very entertaining episode. First off, this episode had some awesome backgrounds... not just because they're Kirby style backgrounds, but they really did look particularly cool. I'm surprised that Jim Steranko is actually listed as "Steranko" for story credit :D. That's probably how he'd like to be creditted anyway, but seeing that title always weirds me out a little. Seeing that Jack Kirby based Mr. Miracle on Steranko himself, it's fitting that he'd come up with the springboard for this story, and J.M. DeMatteis did a great job fleshing it out.

It's very cool to see that device that Mr. Miracle locks himself in is almost right out of the comics, which I'm not too familiar with, but I've read enough Kirby collectors to have seen that particular rig a few times. Adding the black shadow to Miracle's cowl was interesting, I was expecting an all red one. Barda's bikini design was cool, as was her armor. Overall, I really enjoyed all the animation, the direction, and the design work, all of it was great.

The story was appropriately straight forward and it moved very smoothly. I loved the 'Rock'em Sock'em Robots' game between the Flash and Elongated Man. Barda and MM looking for Superman but settling on Flash was great. I'm pretty indifferent toward the Flash, but he was great in this story. I was afraid he'd be a little annoying playing off Barda and MM. As soon as they set foot on Apokolips, it was a fun ride. It felt true to form, in keeping with the overall feel of a Kirby story.

I'm glad Mr. Miracle finally has a nice spotlight episode all to himself. Mr. Fantastic (<- weird) did a nice job with his voice, and Barda's VA wasn't quite the same as her BB one for some reason, even though it was the same person. It was nice to hear Ed Asner again. Always nice to get a barrage of Kirby imagery. All in all it was a very fun episode :cool:. (I can't wait to see what becomes of steranko.com... what an enigma that is...)

[TheScarecrow]

We need to see more of The Flash. His one-liners, the use of the powers, and Michael Rosenbaum's delivery, it was all great to have it all back.

That villain was lame though. Right out of the Superfriends. Granny Goodness is pretty evil though. I would be careful if I were her because she might have an Omega Beam in her future.

[creativerealms]

Good but not great episode. It is great to see Flash back and it is nice that the writers can joke about the problems fans have with this show such as the lack of flash and J'onn not leaving the tower.

[Grimlock]

and the point of this episode being?:sad: :sad: :sad:

Just a waste of 30 mins and Flash's character. They decide to showcase him after an entirety of a season and this is what we are met with?!:sad: :sad:


Uh...what is the point of any episode?

Every episode thus far has showcased some new heroes with some old heroes sprinkled in.

How does this one have any less point than the others?

You could say last week's was "just a waste of 30 mins and green arrow's character."

[Dr Crocodile]

FINALLY the Flash returns. About damn time. Overall a decent episode. The Flash was the best part about it of course.

[susan123]

Had to post to celebrate the return of the Flash! We've missed you buddy.

Loved Arte Johnson's voice for Vunderbar--he used that old German soldier he played in Laugh-In and he even said "Verrry interrrresting". Cool!

Also cool was Ioan Gruffudd (how do you pronounce his name?) as Mister Miracle. Looking forward to seeing him in the Fantastic Four flick.

[JLfan4life]

it was alright, not the best story in the world to me but it was nice to see flash again, man i didn't realize how much i missed him until tonight. i love the Flash. I can't wait to see him again. i loved that J'onn switched with Kalibak at the end...and that ending was so sweet....
MM: "i wanted the green one" http://www.jlauniverse.com/board/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif
and he finally got out the watchtower!!!!!!! http://www.jlauniverse.com/board/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif http://www.jlauniverse.com/board/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif
and barda was kicking lots of ***..........i loved how she punched granny at the end!!! granny had that one coming!!!

[dtemplar]

The Ties That Bind

Role Call: The Flash, Mister Miracle, Big Barda, Martian Manhunter

Villians: Kalibak, Granny Goodness, Verman Vundabar

Guests: Elongated Man, Oberon

Spotlight: The Flash, Mister Miracle

Story: We start wher Mister Miracle was doing an escape act on a set of train tracks. Big Barda, and Oberon were helping him. As the train dropped on him, he escaped unhamrmed. But Oberon was missing, and there was one person was behind all of that. Granny Goodness. Granny asked Mister Miracle to head to Apokolips and free Kalibak from the X Pit. Miracle & Barda head to the Watchtower where we see the Flash in a very mad mood. He was playing Rockem Sockem robots with the Elongated Man and said that the league still treats him like a kid. He saw Miracle and Barda getting ready to talk to The Martian Manhunter asking where Superman is. Superman was on a space mission. Flash inadvertantly volunteered to help Mister Miracle and Big Barda rescue Kalibak from Verman Vundabar. They boom tubed to Apokolips where its all a big power struggle since Darkseid "vanished". They head to the X Pit where Mister Miracle once escaped. He had flashbacks of the place, but the design was brand new. Sudden they met Vunderbar's unwelcoming committee, Barda and Miracle took care of the guards while Flash looked for Kalibak. As Kalibak was rescued, they plan thier escape. Suddenly, Mitser Miracle was trapped in a floor full of water, while Barda, Kalibak, and Flash were falling from a trap door. Suddenly, Barda sees both of Mister Miracles, flight discs, and as they head down, they saw Mister Miracle escaped. But suddenly, Vunderbar sent the place to self-destruct and escaped. Granny Goodness, saw the place in ruins, but a Boom Tube came out of nowhere and show our heroes and Kalibak returned. However, Granny was trying to back down on the deal. But the league has a huge trick on their sleeve. Kalibak was really, the Martian Manhunter. And he found out where Oberon is at. Flash rescued him, and as our heroes left. Barda gave Granny a big punch in the face. Flash knows that it was wrong to disobey order. Martian Manhunter really wanted to play Rockem Sockem Robots. Flash said, I got dibs on the green one." Martian Manhunter said, "I wanted the green one."

My thoughts:

1.
Say it with me: Oh My God Flash Returns!
2. Didn't Vunderbar sounded like Artie Johnson from Laugh-In?

3. Ed Asner playing Granny Goodness was a little strange for my taste. I wanted to hear Tim Curry in his Rocky Horror character as Granny.

4. I wonder if Darkseid will ever return.

5. Kudos to the late Jack Kirby for bringing Mister Miracle.

6. Excellent telling of Mister Miracle's origin.

7. The reason why Flash wasn't in last season. Michael Rosenbaum (the voice of Flash) was working on Smallville as well as the upcoming film Cursed which will open February 25, at a theater near you. Rated PG-13.

Overall:
Teriffic episode ****1/2. See you in seven where the ICON meets tall, gray, and butt-ugly for the first time in Doomsday Sanction.

[Dr. Kryptonite]

Overall I enjoyed this episode quite a bit.

It was great to see Barda and Flash, and seeing Mr. Miracle's back story was a treat.
I didn't like the new villain. I thought someone a bit more menacing should be trying to take over from the most ruthless tyrant in the universe.
Also, I realize that he is Mr. Miracle, but it seems like a writing cop out to never show how he gets out of all the traps and such.
Small complaints for a good episode.

[Killtacular]

I'm a little confused as to how Matt Wilson can say this episode was horrible without having watched it.
I didn't say it was horrible. I just knew that if I -had- watched it, then I -would- say it was horrible, because my mind is pretty much made up about any Flash-spotlight episode. I'd rather spare people the whining. I just commented on the brief glimpses I saw of the actual production quality.

[SilverKnight]

Please tell me that bad guy (Vundebar, I think his name is?) reminded anyone else besides me of Colonel Klink. He even said "Vely intelestink." I mean, you can't get more Klink-ish than that. Aside from that, not bad. I'd have to agree with Matt Wilson, the ep was animated poorly, but I liked the interactions kinda. The bit between him and EM was very cute, it made me snicker. Then again, I'm immature.

And for some reason, Flash's line where he said, "Robots! I love smashing robots!" gave me a distinct Megas XLR vibe, though I'm certain several here would take personal offense to the comparison. But hey, I call 'em like I see 'em.

All in all, 2 stars for Flash, 2 stars for Granny Goodness, and -1 for the extremely annoying VA that did Barda's voice. Wasn't feeling it. So, that would be--what?--3 stars? Sounds about right.

[Fone Bone]

I didn't say it was horrible. I just knew that if I -had- watched it, then I -would- say it was horrible, because my mind is pretty much made up about any Flash-spotlight episode. I'd rather spare people the whining. I just commented on the brief glimpses I saw of the actual production quality.I can understand that but it still strikes me as unfair criticism although you probably can't win either way.

On the other hand neither can the creators.;) :p

[Gpoliceman]

Hello my friends,

I thought this episode was good, but not as amazing as last week's "The Cat and the Canary". I'm glad Flash is being disrespected by the other "original" members of the league. That makes things interesting.

Perhaps the conspiracy will involve the government trying to destroy the league. But what happens is this: The non-super powered heroes and disrespected heroes side with the government (so Wildcat, Elongated Man, Booster Gold, possibly Green Arrow). And the rest of the league has to fight their own friends due to hidden grudges. I bet the non-superpowered heroes will actually say Batman is "just as bad as Superman" and turn on him. And the Flash will become the monkey in the middle, having to decide whom he sides with. Does he side with Superman? Or does he join Wildcat and Elongated Man, who feel disrespected just like he was disrespected by his "so-called friends"? The government, meanwhile, will use this split in the league to their advantage.

Yeah, that's probably not what will happen, but I think it would be interesting.

Anyhow, Mr. Miracle was interesting, and I really liked the twist at the end with Jonn. Flash's humor was great in this episode as well.

The only thing I didn't like was Barda. She seems like a clone of Wonder Woman. A physically strong female who has sort-of a chip on her shoulder.

I give this 4 out of 5 stars

Gpoliceman

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

I can understand that but it still strikes me as unfair criticism although you probably can't win either way.

On the other hand neither can the creators.;) :p
Oh don't worry about what Matt says, he's just jealous because when Flash is around, everybody's laughing at his jokes instead of Matt's. :p

[Maxie Zeus]

Well, that was a load of half-assery. What have we got?

A plot that would disgrace a videogame. "You must break into the impenetrable fortress, elude or disable the guards, rescue the MacGuffin, and then get back out while escaping the inevitable traps." Why would I watch that in an piece of ostensible entertainment when I can just watch a friend diddle around with his PlayStation2? Better yet, why can't I diddle around on the PlayStation2 instead of wasting my time with this? Yeah, a lot of action plots are little more than "run the obstacle course," but they're usually a lot more subtle than this. I haven't felt this insulted since Attack of the Clones.

By-the-numbers fight scenes. Speaking of videogames, here's the BASIC code they apparently used in "Ties That Bind": 10 Punch 20 Jump 30 Smack 40 GOTO 10 I guess it can't always be "Cat/Canary" or "Wake the Dead." Which is fine. But there's no point in praising the fights in those eps if you don't call out the weak ones. This was a weak one.

Quips, but no humor. Wunderbar (or whoever) was good for some wtf moments ("Cake" and his momentary channeling of Arte Johnson), but too much of it was just smart-mouthing. Jokes (*coughtbattle-botscough*)were set up for the sake of having a joke. TOAFT pulled humor out of the characters and the situation. All I heard here was the metallic chatter of the Jokebot3000.

Pointless flashbacks. Are all the fan moments ruining JLU? It's moments like these that make pause and wonder "Maybe ..." What was their point? Fine, fine, Mr. Miracle doesn't give up. Fine, fine, he has a history on Apokalips. Does he learn anything useful or helpful by going into these memory flashbacks? Do they stoke his spirit? I see no evidence they do. They interrupt the plot without advancing it. Maybe the more cretinous members of the audience "understand" Mr. Miracle better, but it's an understanding that had nothing to do with the story.

Blatant cheating instead of ingenuity. Excuse me, but what's the point of having an escape artist do his stuff unless you get to see how he does it? It's a desperate writer that puts his characters into an impossible situation and then rescues them without explaining how. Even Superfriends would feint at an explanation for its ludicrous escapes. But "trade secret"? Why not just shout "Look behind you!" and run away when the viewer glances back? It's just as dishonest.

Can you enjoy "Ties That Behind" despite all this? Yeah, I guess. It's got some slick moments and a quasi-nod to Bond. But it's like listening to a third-rate comedian trot out his B material. It's only good if you're feeling really indulgent. "Kids Stuff" was way better.

[Fone Bone]

2. Didn't Vunderbar sounded like Artie Johnson from Laugh-In? Yes because it was.


3. Ed Asner playing Granny Goodness was a little strange for my taste. I wanted to hear Tim Curry in his Rocky Horror character as Granny.
Asner played her in the Superman series too.


[quote=SilverKnight]



All in all, 2 stars for Flash, 2 stars for Granny Goodness, and -1 for the extremely annoying VA that did Barda's voice. Wasn't feeling it. So, that would be--what?--3 stars? Sounds about right.
I like Farrah Forke (probably because I remember her from Wings.) Besides she played Barda in Batman Beyond.

[Spectre]

Kudos to one of the most enjoyable episodes of JLU yet. Sure, it wasn't the powerful drama of "For The Man Who Has Everthing", and it lacked the kinetic artistry of last week's "The Cat and the Canary", but sweet Jebus, it was a fun romp.

Flash seemed about as annoyed at his relative absence from League affairs as we were. Fortunately, he's back, and let us all get down on our knees and thank God for it. It was wonderful to see him in all his glory, his offhand quips, witty remarks, and snappy one liners elevating my enjoyment of this episode immensely. Flash is by far the 'earthiest' of the Big Seven- he laughs loudest, parties hardest, has the most fun. Heck, you watch him, and you can tell he's enjoying himself as he speeds through danger. Yet he also has one of the biggest hearts in the Justice League, as was obvious when he protested Jonn's reticence to aid Mr. Miracle and Barda, and later when he went with them anyway.

And lest we forget, he was a founding member of the JL for very good reason- he's a great superhero. This episode demonstrated that extremely well. I don't think Flash was the 'fall guy' once in this episode, a far cry from the punching bag he sometimes becomes. He also used his super speed powers in clever and entertaining ways; I particularly liked the whirlwind trick he did to suck up the fire and then break through the wall. Flash was at the top of his game here.

Of course, the other characters were fun to watch as well. Having already seen Barda (in some form or fashion) on Batman Beyond's "The Call" two-parter, I'm glad they kept her characterization relatively consistent here. Given how much of a 'Xena' type Wonder Woman's become lately, I wondered briefly how they were going to differentiate Barda from here. Ironically enough, they went in both directions away from that mold. Barda sure loves to fight, and her temper is more explosive than Diana's has ever been; she's like Wonder Woman with permanent PMS. On the other hand, she seems like she can be nicer, kinder, gentler than Diana is typically portrayed as; witness her affectionate welcome back to Oberon.

Mr. Miracle was a new character for me, though I have seen him briefly (along with Barda) in Alex Ross's Kingdom Come. He posessed the cool, optimistic air of a man who's spent his life beating the odds. I liked that we could actually see his eyes under his mask, a nice change of pace for a superhero. The flashbacks scattered throughout the episode made for a nice bit of character development, showing Miracle's connection to Apokolips and Granny Goodness, while also establishing a tension about re-entering the X Pit. Mr. Miracle was as much at war with the Pit itself than with any of his flesh-and-blood enemies in this ep.

Granny Goodness was her usual sinister self. Who does her voice, anyway? It almost sounds like a man. Nice to see Worf- err, Kalibak too. Has Darkseid really been missing since Twilight? Still, I refuse to believe he's actually dead. He's far too great a villain in magnitude to be in only one episode of Justice League- heck, JLU needs him to be alive rather desperately, now that Batman's rogues are off-limits.

Good to see J'onn in action, too. All in all, a very solid 4 star ep.

Heh heh. Flash said 'boob'. :D

[Tzomisx]

** 1/2

The story was alright... I really enjoyed the Flash/Elongated Man conversation while playing Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots - I also liked Mister Miracle's backstory.

I cant stand Granny Goodness, though it was cool to see Kalibak again.

Overall... meh...

[Master Moron]

Well, this gets 5 stars cause it had the return of Flash. Hell, Flash's presence made this the best episode of Justice League Unlimited yet. Of course, I would have preferred if they killed Granny Goodness, I hated her. Hey, couldn't she just kidnap Oberon again if she wanted too? I really didn't understand the whole letting the power struggle continue. I mean, they're the freakin justice league, they should just kill anyone who tries to start a war.

[Fone Bone]

Well, that was a load of half-assery. What have we got?

A plot that would disgrace a videogame. "You must break into the impenetrable fortress, elude or disable the guards, rescue the MacGuffin, and then get back out while escaping the inevitable traps." Why would I watch that in an piece of ostensible entertainment when I can just watch a friend diddle around with his PlayStation2? Better yet, why can't I diddle around on the PlayStation2 instead of wasting my time with this? Yeah, a lot of action plots are little more than "run the obstacle course," but they're usually a lot more subtle than this. I haven't felt this insulted since Attack of the Clones.

By-the-numbers fight scenes. Speaking of videogames, here's the BASIC code they apparently used in "Ties That Bind": 10 Punch 20 Jump 30 Smack 40 GOTO 10 I guess it can't always be "Cat/Canary" or "Wake the Dead." Which is fine. But there's no point in praising the fights in those eps if you don't call out the weak ones. This was a weak one.

Quips, but no humor. Wunderbar (or whoever) was good for some wtf moments ("Cake" and his momentary channeling of Arte Johnson), but too much of it was just smart-mouthing. Jokes (*coughtbattle-botscough*)were set up for the sake of having a joke. TOAFT pulled humor out of the characters and the situation. All I heard here was the metallic chatter of the Jokebot3000.

Pointless flashbacks. Are all the fan moments ruining JLU? It's moments like these that make pause and wonder "Maybe ..." What was their point? Fine, fine, Mr. Miracle doesn't give up. Fine, fine, he has a history on Apokalips. Does he learn anything useful or helpful by going into these memory flashbacks? Do they stoke his spirit? I see no evidence they do. They interrupt the plot without advancing it. Maybe the more cretinous members of the audience "understand" Mr. Miracle better, but it's an understanding that had nothing to do with the story.

Blatant cheating instead of ingenuity. Excuse me, but what's the point of having an escape artist do his stuff unless you get to see how he does it? It's a desperate writer that puts his characters into an impossible situation and then rescues them without explaining how. Even Superfriends would feint at an explanation for its ludicrous escapes. But "trade secret"? Why not just shout "Look behind you!" and run away when the viewer glances back? It's just as dishonest.

Can you enjoy "Ties That Behind" despite all this? Yeah, I guess. It's got some slick moments and a quasi-nod to Bond. But it's like listening to a third-rate comedian trot out his B material. It's only good if you're feeling really indulgent. "Kids Stuff" was way better.I liked the episode but I WILL concede that never showing how Mr. Miracle escaped from his stunts was blatant cheating on the writer's parts. I would feel equally annoyed if Batman had never revealed how he escaped the trap in Riddler's Reform.

[Tyke]

AWESOME EPISODE. FLASH SHOWING HIS TRUE ABILITIES, AND FINALLY HAS GREAT DIALOGUE!

Mr. Miracle--cool! Big Barda--cooler! Hunger Dogs--coolest! Jack Kirby would love this one!

[Fone Bone]

Well, this gets 5 stars cause it had the return of Flash. Hell, Flash's presence made this the best episode of Justice League Unlimited yet. Of course, I would have preferred if they killed Granny Goodness, I hated her. Hey, couldn't she just kidnap Oberon again if she wanted too? I really didn't understand the whole letting the power struggle continue. I mean, they're the freakin justice league, they should just kill anyone who tries to start a war.Don't get DerekPowers started.:ack: :eek:

I still love you DerekPowers!

[Merlin Missy]

J'onn left the Watchtower. And used both his telepathic and metamorphic abilities in useful ways.

Flash lives. And has apparently lost status among the Big Six/Seven. And was useful and optimistic anyway.

Huh.

I was expecting Darkseid to reappear at the end of the episode. Not disappointed that he didn't, just wondering where he's biding his time and if he's busy running Ye Olde Conspiracy.

Fun ep. And now I must go listen to a certain young friend squeal about Wally being back. :D

MM:)

[Spectre]

Houdini never revealed his secrets either...

I'm starting to wonder if, far from actually disliking any episode of any show, Matt Wilson complains because he gets some kind of visceral pleasure out of constantly being a *****.

[Batman Fan]

Originally posted by Fone Bone
I liked the episode but I WILL concede that never showing how Mr. Miracle escaped from his stunts was blatant cheating on the writer's parts. I would feel equally annoyed if Batman had never revealed how he escaped the trap in Riddler's Reform.

I know, what a rip off, I was looking forward to seeing him escape the trap, it was a very good trap. This kinda happended in Harley & Ivy too, where Batman is sinking in the toxic water off screen and then we say the chains float up and Batman swims to land:sad:

[Master Moron]

Don't get DerekPowers started.:ack: :eek:

I still love you DerekPowers!

Who's Derek Powers?

[Fatneck]

Well, this gets 5 stars cause it had the return of Flash. Hell, Flash's presence made this the best episode of Justice League Unlimited yet. Of course, I would have preferred if they killed Granny Goodness, I hated her. Hey, couldn't she just kidnap Oberon again if she wanted too? I really didn't understand the whole letting the power struggle continue. I mean, they're the freakin justice league, they should just kill anyone who tries to start a war. I guess the logic there is that it's better to have the people of Apokolips spend their time killing each other instead of invading other planets.

I hated the fact they didn't show Miracle's escapes as well. I was looking forward to see how Mr. Miracle does his thang. I thought I was going to see some clever writing when he made his amazing escapes. Oh well.

[Maxie Zeus]

Houdini never revealed his secrets either...

Yeah, but magicians are supposed to amaze and mystify. When a writer does it, it's just being a jerk.

* * * * * * *

My comments probably give a harsher impression than I actually felt. The story wasn't a betrayal or anything. [I probably oughta take the "Attack of the Clones" insult out, but it's part of the record now :shrug:] As a Saturday afternoon (or evening) goof-off, it was fun. I'd be happier if it had been more thoroughly in the spirit of Vunderbar's scenes--woulda tipped me more into the "that was fun" camp.

[warmachine04]

With these recent episodes, the second season of Justice League Unlimited looks very promising.
+ The story is pretty straightfoward but still quite fun.
+ Flash is certainly one of the coolest members in the League. Michael Rosenbaum brings out the best of this hero. He might be inmature and brash but has the biggest heart of the team.
+ The concept of Apokalips divided into feuding house works well in this episode.
+ Its good to see Big Barda, Granny Goodness and Kalibak back in the DCAU.
+ Lots of action and humor in this episode.
+ The character of Mr. Miracle was fairly interesting.

[Crow]

Geez, young Matthew didn't need hardly any bait this time, he practically jumped in the boat.

This is one episode which I'll not worry about getting all the info possible before I get to see it, I'm glad I caught this talkback early. Sounds great, thanks for telling me about J'onn more than Flash fellas! Maxie's post was also very interesting, Mr Miracle for me is just another Super Powers toy I had over ten years ago and it seems they didn't do a fair job of him. Oh well.

So what, do they actually flashback to Superman:TAS footage of Granny Goodness?

[superprime]

This was a fun episode. Nothing really amazing, but still pretty good. It was great to have Flash back. His scene with Elongated Man was funny. It's also nice that after all this time Mr. Miracle finally got a spotlight with a speaking part. The fact that we never saw how Miracle got out of the traps was cheap, but oh well. Overall it was a fun little episode and nice return for Flash.

[Style]

I think it's a little unfair for me to post my opinion. Because, I hate Darkseid and Apokolips. I think that concept is over-bloated and over-praised, and it all boils down to generic and uninteresting villainy. If Superman decided to push apokolips into a black hole, killing all his enemies there and countless more innocents, I wouldn't fault him at all. Justified genocide in a fictional context? I say yes.


That said, I did enjoy the Flash, although I disagree with others here, because Flash WAS NOT using his powers to the best of his ability. If you sit and think about the physics involved with him throughing punches at near the speed of light thousands of times a second, you too would come to the conclusion that Flash could KILL Superman, or Darkseid, or Granny Goodness, or anyone but Amazo if he put his mind too it.

Still I had a lot of fun with Flash. (*mumble* and oggling Barda *mumble*) and would put this episode on the Watch-again list. (I archive every episode of DCAU and Teen Titans anyway, so I would eventually anyway.)

Oh, and I felt special tonight because my real name just happens to be Scott.

[Jack Frenzy]

Traditionally, Mr, Miracle always revealed his escape techniques.

It was part of Kirby's conception of the character: a man (well, a New God) with no real superpowers (other than remarkable speed, strength and endurance) defying death with his brains, skill and trick gadgets.

Although Mr. Miracle loved to let his audience sweat a little, he always made it clear afterwards how he performed his escapes, how anyone with the the right preparation and training could have defied death just like him.

In effect, he was demonstrating that the common man could overcome fear, and fear was Darkseid's greatest weapon.

Each successful escape was his way of saying, "Anyone with a little courage and ingenuity can beat you, Darkseid."

Each successful escape explained was his way of saying, "And I'm going to show them all how."

[SilverKnight]

I like Farrah Forke (probably because I remember her from Wings.) Besides she played Barda in Batman Beyond.Maybe there was too much sass in her voice, then. It seemed fine one moment, and vaguely valley girl-ish the next. It grated with me. >shrugs<

[90'sCartoonMan]

It was cool to see J'onn in action again! Though his voice doesn't sound quite right for some reason...
I noticed that too. It was like Lumbly had a cat in his throat or something. Having said that...

Flash! Mr. Miracle! Barda! Oberon to a lesser extent! Darkseid still missing! The Flash/Elongated Man friendship! Ed Asner! J'onn calling Flash "Wally"! Michael Dorn! J'onn out of the Watchtower for the first time on this series! Jason Bateman on SNL! THE FLASH!!!!!!!

I liked the Miracle flashbacks...that blue was just eerie. It's pretty cool that he got so much development, he just took Atom's place on my favorite Leaguers (although he's still behind Dr. Fate, Green Aquaman, Green Arrow, and Black Canary).

I did have a couple complaints. The animation wasn't all that great, and what's the deal with those things over Oberon? They kept changing positions each time we saw them. 4 stars, keep Flash coming!

Hm, Flash is sidelined with the Big Seven...that means none of those chairs in "Ultimatum" belonged to him...

Merlin Missy, about time to change that avatar? :D

[dawnyoshi]

it's nice to see the return feature of the Darkseid characters. and the flash. Seems to be a good episode (15 minutes through).

[Merlin Missy]

^ I brought back the avatar in honor of the ep. I'll nuke it tomorrow. :)

MM:)

[KefkaFloyd]

Just so everyone knows, the name is Wunderbar. Its proper German pronounciation is with the W as a V. Sounds kinda like "Voon-deh-bah."

It's German for Wonderful. The irony of Wunderbar being named as such is incredibly apparent.

[bat313]

jUST AWSOME!!!!! That could have been the season finale for season 1 and i would have been happy! I love flash, he rocks. I have been watching the second volume of batman tas and these episodes of JLU really do blow them out of the water. I guess we rate them so high because of nastalgia and the fact they started it all, but the animation on JLU and character acting and writting is so awsome now its great. A definite step up from Superman tas, where we were introduced to the Kirby characters! I love this show and i hope it lasts forever. 5 stars all the way.

[Terminatah]

The past bunch of JLU episodes, I've really enjoyed. I haven't been saying anything in the talkbacks because by the time I always watch my tape of the episode, the talkbacks are infinity pages long. But I've really been loving the show as of late.

I hope I never get to the point where I'm incapable of enjoying an episode like this. At least I'm positive I'll never come to the point where I don't watch the episode, but still feel the need to come online and tell thousands of people that it sucked.

That would just be silly.

-Terminatah

[Anon190]

Aww! "...I wanted the green one."

You never know how much you miss Flash till he's gone. And then he comes back. And then there was much rejoicing.

Seeing as I know so little about Apokolips, I tried not to wrap my brain too tightly around all the backstory, and instead, watched all the pretty colors and FLASH. Oh, and the capes.

Boob tube. XDDDDD

*cough* Anyway, I was rather surprised that J'onn turned down their request. Yes, he helped out later, and that does re-earn him his points, but it's scary that the League is now choosing not to get involved in things because of politics. It goes to show how, for lack of better word, 'politicized' the League is now. They're in news reports with references to scandals, clashing with governments, hosting WMDs (big lasery stuff), and being nearly ostracized for their metahumans.

Wow. JLU just got back in my good books. Amazing.

EDIT: I totally forgot: DUDE! WORF!!!

[DLM]

Traditionally, Mr, Miracle always revealed his escape techniques.

It was part of Kirby's conception of the character: a man (well, a New God) with no real superpowers (other than remarkable speed, strength and endurance) defying death with his brains, skill and trick gadgets.

Although Mr. Miracle loved to let his audience sweat a little, he always made it clear afterwards how he performed his escapes, how anyone with the the right preparation and training could have defied death just like him.

In effect, he was demonstrating that the common man could overcome fear, and fear was Darkseid's greatest weapon.

Each successful escape was his way of saying, "Anyone with a little courage and ingenuity can beat you, Darkseid."

Each successful escape explained was his way of saying, "And I'm going to show them all how."I went back and forth and back and forth on this whole issue. On the one hand, it seems a bit cheap not to see how he did ANY of his escapes. On the other hand, I understand what they were trying to do, they were trying to create an air of mystery and awe about Scott Free. The ultimate survivor. Idealy I think they should have showed us how he got out of that train car stunt, but kept the rest of his escapes off screen. That way they could have established his character, his ingenuity, and his daring, but kept us wondering "WOW how'd he DO that?!" in subsequent situations. IMO, just that small change might have pushed this episode from the "four star, really good episode" catagory into the "REALLY GREAT EPISODE!!!" catagory.

Edit: Oh and I know we got to see how he got through that corridor filled with laser guns, but that didn't feel so much like a "Mr. Miracle escape" as a standard superhero scene

[Ruffian]

I really enjoyed this episode. Nice to see Mr. Miracle and Big Barda and it was also nice to see Flash and J'onn featured, since they had the least amount of screentime in Season 1. The one liners were great, very Flash. The use of Flash's powers were the best I've seen so far. That thing he did, whirling the energy beams to him and then crashing into the wall... pretty sweet. The Mr. Miracle flashbacks looked great too, nice way of letting viewers in on his backstory. The ending I was so not expecting. Nice job putting J'onn in, and it made me feel better about him too. He's my favorite JL member and I thought his "think of the bigger picture" mentality was cold. No complaints on storytelling and pacing here, everything felt unusually consistant. Good job JLU.

EDIT:

I like Farrah Forke (probably because I remember her from Wings.) Besides she played Barda in Batman Beyond. Wow, didn't know that. I loved Wings, possibly my favorite sitcom of all time. I was even a Tim Daly fan before STAS. That's cool Farrah's Barda 'cuz Alex was tough as nails too.

[paulie]

OK, I have to admit it....I LOVED this episode! It might be my favorite JLU to date...for the first time since WTD, the story just grabbed me and took me along for the ride. I didn't care about the animation, or the voices, or who anybody was, I just loved watching this episode. Maybe I just really like the cheezy-ironic tone (a la TGSNT), maybe I wouldn't have liked it as much if the Flash had actually existed in S1, but man, it was such a fun ride.

Let me be the first JLU-basher to say: for me, it was THE FLASH that was missing...huh, imagine that? The guy is a great character...gave JLU some heart, dagummit...I'm such a geek :p




OK, calmed down now. I actually really, really liked the flashbacks of Mr Miracle. They were short enough not to completely derail the flow of the episode, but added that extra layer to Miracle's character so he wasn't "just another mask". I thought the relationship between Miracle and Barda was sweet.

Flash vs Elongated Man at rock'em sock'em is up there with GA's supermarket scene for best in JLU so far.

On a serious note: J'onn sure is acting "administrative" (read: he's the guy that tells you that no, you CAN'T sign up for this class unless you sign these 32 petitions, pay the required 67 fees, then dance on one foot under a harvest moon.) Glad to see he came around at the end. The League is playing with fire by letting Apokolips have a power vacuum, it's ripe for the taking.

[Alba Aulbath]

Oh snap, it's been a long time since I've posted... but because this is a rare jem in the sea of SUCK that is Justice League Unlimited, and because Flash finally makes his return, I figured I oughta throw in my few words.

HOLY CRAP, Flash makes his return. HOLY CRAP, J'onn didn't just sit on his ass and make orders in this episode. HOLY CRAP, Wonder Woman didn't fly in to make me WINCE IN TERRIBLE PAIN.

Holy Crap. It's about damned time.

What makes me sad about JLU is that there haven't been enough good episodes. There's only a few rare diamonds in the rough, like Booster Gold's episode, or the one with the Question's appearance. Otherwise, I haven't been too terribly fond of JLU, to the point where I didn't care if I really missed it these past few weeks.

Then my friend said the Flash was making his return. About damned time; his personality always sticks out in the JL, ever since he was part of the original seven. He's the funny charming one (in MY opinion, okay?) and still young, still fresh. He's immature, but I love him that way, because he's still developing. He sticks out, and you have to admit to that, even if you hate him or feel mediocre about him.

It's kind of a common thought with Flash: he's immature, and he's treated as a child. Though, he's proven himself again and again that he's not. What I really love was his brief argument with J'onn, and J'onn referring to him as Wally. Something about Flash suggests to me that he tries to keep from getting any 'Wally'ing towards him, but that's my take. It's a bit of a personal blow, and he steps out to go behind J'onn's back. Which the Martian is totally okay with.

The adventuring, not entincing, but interesting enough. Nice to get some Flash in the episode, and nice to see some of the horrors of Mr. Miracle's backstory, and love Big Barda's temper. Though honestly, my favorite parts of the episode had been acts one and three, not so much act two.

Adored the episode, though I fear I won't be getting too many more like this one. Damn it, Flash, get your own animated series! I WILL WATCH IT.

[D.Shaffer]

I mean, they're the freakin justice league, they should just kill anyone who tries to start a war.:eek: ...Uh, you're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding here.

[DLM]

OK, I have to admit it....I LOVED this episode! It might be my favorite JLU to date....Personally I wouldn't go that far but I can totally understand this point of view... simply because the writing was VERY VERY good in this episode. Not perfect, but very very good. The dialouge never really sagged, the plot was solid, and there was an actual suprise ending, which very few shows can pull off. Im not a visual guy so I didn't notice the animation flaws when I watched the show but then again it didn't grab my attention visually either (and I usually DO notice the REALLY amazingly animated episodes) so I will trust those who say the animation was not so great. A few small changes would have made this a truly GREAT episode though from my point of view.

[The Master Con]

I have a feelin that the season 3's or 4's arc will be Darkseid's return.

[paulie]

Personally I wouldn't go that far

Well, give me a few days and I'll be better able to put it in its place compared to the other eppys... ;)


but I can totally understand this point of view... simply because the writing was VERY VERY good in this episode. Not perfect, but very very good. The dialouge never really sagged, the plot was solid, and there was an actual suprise ending, which very few shows can pull off.

Yep yep, I feel exactly the same way. I guess it's all about the writing for me. Again, like in TCATC, the story was pretty simple and gave enough time for everything to fit nicely...


Im not a visual guy so I didn't notice the animation flaws when I watched the show but then again it didn't grab my attention visually either (and I usually DO notice the REALLY amazingly animated episodes) so I will trust those who say the animation was not so great. A few small changes would have made this a truly GREAT episode though from my point of view.

You know, I rarely notice bad animation, but I know when I'm watching something a little special looks-wise...maybe I'm just too much of a fan?

[FunTurtle]

The Flash is officially back.
In celebration of the return of teh Scarlet Speedster, I toddled down to the Hollywood Video and rented a movie, then came home and watched "Ties that Bind." Then I reached in my video bag, and popped it into the VCR...
The Flash live action movie.
Heh.
It's actually not bad, considering it was a DC comics live action show from 1990. It's not as much a movie than the first 3 - 4 episodes of the short lived TV show back to back.
Surprisingly, during the opening credits, I noticed the music credits...
Danny Elfman...
and the second name on there is Shirley Walker. :)
Is there nothing she can't do?
The movie also has Star Labs in it...so it's not just some random crazy show, they have DC stuff in there. Go rent it. It's fun. (It's Barry Allen Flash, not Wally West, so it's not really a celebration of the same Flash...but it's all there is, unless I watch STAS' Speed Demons, and I did that last week.)
Welcome back Flash :anime:

[Rietrofan90]

Pros:

1. Wally's back! The Flash... this is the reason I watch the show.

2. J'ohn calling him Wally.

3. Wally's back with a bag of fresh funny one liners, and other people are amusing too.

4. Granny Goodness, she's voiced by Ed Asner after all...

5. Micheal Rosenbaum doing the Flash makes me a happy girl...

6. Wally explaining that he's as fast, if not faster than Supes. He is THE FLASH afterall...

7. Wally used his powers quite well this episode, bravo.

8. John leaving the watch tower!

Cons: None, anything with Flash is perfection in my book.

[Merlin Missy]

*ponder*

In "Initiation," J'onn warned GL not to get involved in the local politics. The Leaguers with him (specifically GA) did it anyway. Without consequences, as far as we know. The only one to even get a dressing-down was Kara, and that was for doing things without thinking them through first (and reminding GL of his ex, never a good thing).

In "TTTB," J'onn says they can't get involved with the local politics on Apokolips. And he does this in front of Flash, whose thoughts on the matter he can easily read. So once again the League gets involved with the local politics, but not on a "sanctioned" basis. (J'onn can always argue his involvement at the end was merely designed to restore any lost balance of power and rescue an innocent civilian caught up in events.) Wally anticipates getting yelled at but doesn't.

So is J'onn quietly manipulating members of the League into doing what the League really wants to do but can't under their own "charter"?

MM:)

[ced1106]

Part of what differentiates Marvel from DC is how, in the Marvel Universe, pretty much all the superheroes were created by two or three people, while the DC Universe is a mish-mash of superheroes by different creators -- heck, different companies. While in "the comics" DC tries to blend the characters smoothly, it looks as if the JLU basks in the crossover-complex of putting incongruous characters in a plot, and just enjoying seeing what happens.

For those who weren't even reading when Kirby was around, Kirby created the "Fourth World", or some other non-meaning label, for his world of Apocalypse (sp). Highfather (sp) was Good, Darkseid was Evil, yet Kirby added goofy "No way could they get away with this now" characteres, like Granny Goodness, and Baron Vunderbarr.

In the comics world, when the Fourth World became more integrated with the DC Universe, Highfather retreated into the background, with Superman becoming the symbol of Good. Darkseid, probably the only bad guy that was as powerful as Superman **and** had a background development, became the symbol of Evil.

However, at least while I was reading comics, Darkseid was, well, overused. If there was some evil he could barely overcome, it was only a matter of time until Darkseid would appear. Bizarre cult worshipping Superman and gaining powers. Darkseid. Wonderwoman's Paradise Island destroyed. Darkseid. Cat falling out of a tree. Darkseid.

Conversely, Baron Vunderbarr, a not exactly PC character who was inspired by a certain mustached guy from WWII, didn't really go anywhere. I think I last saw him in a couple of panels fighting Captain Boomerang.

So what does JLU the animation do? Toss things on their head. It's Apocalypse, yet Darkseid's nowhere to be found. Baron Vunderbarr barely makes an appearance (not that I was looking for him) in DC comics, yet becomes this episode's main villain. As-strong-as-Superman Kalibak needing to be rescued. And, despite his own series (okay, so I stopped reading Flash when the Korean newscaster stopped looking Korean), the Flash was one of the few DC characters who **didn't** visit Apocalypse. (Hey, even Blue Beetle was there! Or was that Booster Gold. Oh, heck, even Ambush Bug "met" Darkseid...)

I should mention the voice acting. Worf as Kalibak. Ed Asner, known during your father's generation as Lou Grant, newspaper editor from the acclaimed Mary Tyler Moore Show, and voice of J Jonah Jameson from an old Spider Man series. Arte Johnson, known from your **grandfather's** generation as the German speaking ("verrrrry interesting") character from the 60's hit, Laugh-In.

And perhaps that's why not everyone enjoyed the show. JLU has its inside jokes, but inside jokes are only funny if you're in the know. I don't know how the DC Universe is treating Kirby's Fourth World, but even when I was reading its characters, I understand they were a pale version of when Kirby was writing. Arte Johnson is one of **the** most famous comedians of his time, but what other DC character would he play? So I'm filing this as another "fun" episode, alongside Bwana Beast making a cameo, and the Question hardly resembling his Ditko character.

Although Ed Asner playing a woman's voice seriously creeps me out. :D


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

[Cobblepot1982]

Overall, I liked this episode for ONE reason, and ONE reason alone: continuity. I REALLY liked how they continued this from the episode "Twilight", and I LOVE Darkseid's crew. That Stalinist dictator was a nice touch, too. As for the Flash...(sigh)...I think his jokes were too corny for him...he's normally a bit of a wiseguy, but in this, he just acted like a stupid teenager. You guys bash The Batman, but Flash's comedy you loved, even though it was dumbed down in this episode. Ah well, whatcha gonna do...

Seeing Barda punch Granny Goodness- PRICELESS!

I love Jonn J'onzz...ALWAYS have, so he was great in this episode. And the end with him and Flash was sweet, too.

[DLM]

You guys bash The Batman, but Flash's comedy you loved, even though it was dumbed down in this episode. Ah well, whatcha gonna do...
Not in the same ballpark, not even in the same galaxy my friend :)

[Cobblepot1982]

wait...wait...Ed Asner did Granny Goodness? I thought that was William Atherton AKA Walter Peck, from Ghostbusters?

Mr. Miracle's name is Scott Free?.....TELL me you're kidding....

[DLM]

Mr. Miracle's name is Scott Free?.....TELL me you're kidding....Maybe a bit painfull but yes. But again, its part of the Kirby package. Call me crazy but I'll give that mythos a bit of leeway with obvious symbolism and allegory because.. Oh.. I dunno.. .because its been earned?

[PeterFries]

I thought that giant pen knife doodad was the best CG on the series so far.

I loved Wally's heart-to-heart with Ralph. Funny that it turns out that he was lost in the new member shuffle by the other original Leaguers, and not just the writers.

This was the first episode where I realized that J'Onn isn't just switchboard operator and traffic control (not to mention staff psychological touchstone) for the League -- he's apparently the chief decision maker on how, when and why every superhero on Earth is deployed. Wow. That's a heck of a step up from his status in "Secret Origins" as the Area 51 Martian held in a bunker, but I guess it makes sense given that he's had centuries of experience in warfare, tactics, ethical decisions and self-sacrifice. Seems like his nigh-omniscient status might be the single most grating thing to the human military forces who seem bent on finding a way to keep the League in check.

Next episode looks like a blast. I love the shots from the corridor battle on the Watchtower, especially Annihilator tossing Atomsmasher against the glass and Shining Knight parrying away Deadshot's shots with Excalibur. Who is the redhead Suicide Squad member tossing discs at J'Onn?

[tucsoncoyote]

wait...wait...Ed Asner did Granny Goodness? I thought that was William Atherton AKA Walter Peck, from Ghostbusters?

Mr. Miracle's name is Scott Free?.....TELL me you're kidding....and is it me? Or didn't Baron Verman Vunderbar sound Like? Artie Johnson (From the old Rowan and Martin Laugh-in Days? Veddy Interestink! if it was Artie... )after all I swear that was Artie Johnson playing Baron Vunderbar in tonights ep!)

:coyote:

[Grimlock]

7. The reason why Flash wasn't in last season. Michael Rosenbaum (the voice of Flash) was working on Smallville as well as the upcoming film Cursed which will open February 25, at a theater near you. Rated PG-13.


Actually, i'm pretty sure that rumor's been debunked. It's entirely possible to do a few episodes as a voice of an animated character while working on a live-action tv show and a movie as well.

[Batman49]

What's not to like with an episode with Jeremy Piven(I want more Entourage), Flash, and Mr. Miracle. An episode with more Elongated Man wouldn't hurt. Elongated Man and Flash's scene together sealed the deal for this episode, everything else was just extra. :D

[Grimlock]

I didn't say it was horrible. I just knew that if I -had- watched it, then I -would- say it was horrible, because my mind is pretty much made up about any Flash-spotlight episode. I'd rather spare people the whining. I just commented on the brief glimpses I saw of the actual production quality.
That's pretty closed-minded, matt. Did you dislike the brave and the bold simply because flash was spot-lit? If you want people to take your opinion seriously regarding animation, then you can't be so biased about an entire episode based on who one of the main characters is.

And if you didn't even watch this episode like you say, why did you even have it on in the first place, thus providing you with "brief glimpses of actual production quality"?

[Grimlock]

Personally I wouldn't go that far but I can totally understand this point of view... simply because the writing was VERY VERY good in this episode. Not perfect, but very very good. The dialouge never really sagged, the plot was solid, and there was an actual suprise ending, which very few shows can pull off.
I think we can owe most of that to the wonderful J.M. Dematteis who wrote the teleplay for this episode.

They need to get him writing more for this show, he's great.

Oh, and he also did the teleplay for The Man Who Has Everything i believe.

[Grimlock]

You guys bash The Batman, but Flash's comedy you loved, even though it was dumbed down in this episode. Ah well, whatcha gonna do...


Probably because the flash has NEVER made as incredibly lame a joke as "Have an 'ice' evening."

[Revelator]

I'm a little confused as to how Matt Wilson can say this episode was horrible without having watched it. I don't think his ego would allow him to not post as soon as he could with something negative, even if it meant looking like a showboating twerp. But the animation was indeed often awkward, especially that running down the hall scene.

I'd like to see more of Elongated Man--Jeremy Piven, an actor I never took much notice of in real life, has a terrific voice for animation. It feels effortlessly expressive. But the actress playing Barda was stiff.
This episode has gotten a lot of praise for bringing back Flash, but the main reason for this episode's existence--to introduce Mr.Miracle--was flubbed a bit. (Seeing people put aside their usual antipathy to JLU and gush with praise just because Flash appeared was funny in a sick-making sort of way.)
I usually love flashbacks, but here they provided information, rather than also illuminating the character in a non-general way. We kept hearing all those bad lines about hope, but surely it's more apt to say that hope is far too abstract a way to account for Scott's original success? What about the desire to stick it to Granny and get back at her by escaping, or the pleasure shared by many escape artists in excersizing and testing one's ingeniousness? Miracle's character was never developed into the simple but psychologically sound outline that we got for the most notable new characters in JLU. All we see is someone who made an escape as a child and then became an escape artist. But it takes more than a childhood experience to make anyone pursue that sort of thing career, and we never saw enough of a distinct personality to clue us in on what components of it escape artistry appealed to with such strong force.

If Mr.Miracle is such a great escape artist, how come we never once saw him make a great escape? In real life watching an escape artist miraculously appear outside an inescapable trap is a thrill that reduces our need to see how the trick was done. But in animation anything is possible, and it just doesn't cut it to have Mr.Miracle get trapped and all of a sudden pop up free, except if you're a writer looking for cheap shortcuts. What might have been the great pleasure of this episode--seeing Miracle test his ingenuity to the limits against an increasingly more diabolical series of traps--was instead wasted. Watching this episode was like reading a Sherlock Holmes story where Holmes solves the case without ever telling Watson how he did it.
Lest folks think that I wholly share Maxie's outrage, I should say that I still enjoyed this episode and have a mysterious affection for it. Seeing Jonn reappear in force was like getting a visit from an old friend and finding out he'd be spending the day at your place. And Arte Johnson practically smashed the camp-meter with his Wunderbar, who deserved a bit more screen time.

Jonn's end quip was good, but it might have been more compelling to have Jonn, Flash, Miracle and Barda leave Apokalips, thinking it forever doomed to power struggles, only for us to see Darkseid step into the frame and make an ominous comment before the fade to black (or just more conventional perhaps).
Anyway, it's too bad Jack Kirby wasn't alive to see this tribute to his bizarro imagination, since I'm guessing he'd have been pleased, despite the botched escapes.

[lostrune]

1. Whoa, that girl has WW's voice... I guess we won't be seeing WW today.... :eek:

2. Ha! Flash is back! Even acknowledging he's underused for an Original 7. And so not immature. :)

3. Last resort: cake... Mmmmmmm, caaaake.... :p

4. Heh, Boob/m tube... Same old Flash, macking on even the wifeys. :anime:

5. Flash [to Mr. Miracle]: "I'm not that committed (married), but I'm with you." :sweat:

6. Big Barda = Mr. Miracle's cow... Flash the mature one?! :ack:

7. Nice trick, J'onn. "Try not to think where...." :cool:

7b. Figures J'onn would want the green one. :D

8. Kalibak imprisoned on Earth?! Are they trying to invite Darkseid there?! Why not a less populated planet? :shrug:

8b. So today, we had Kalibak, then we had Regis (Megas XLR). Hmmm.... ;)

[Zergrinch]

After watching the Mr. Miracle - Flash romp, I am left with the following questions:

Mister Miracle's performance at the start of the episode -> for whom, and what purpose? He didn't seem to have an audience, or TV cameras at the scene.
Wunderbar set up a nullification field against boob boom tube warps. So why were they able to boom back to the Watchtower in the nick of time?
Are Mister Miracle and Big Barda members of the expanded Justice League?
Tsk. Some guys these Leaguers turn out to be. Bust Kalibak out of a torture chamber only to incarcerate him anew on another planet. Poor brute. What - They're going to justify this based on his actions during "Hereafter"? :D

I was expecting to see the reason for Barda's devotion to Superman (in The Call) expalined here. Oh well. At least, we learn her attitude hasn't adjusted any better in 50 years' time :sweat:

Oh, and please enlighten me. Who is Oberon, and what is his connection to Mister Miracle in the comics?

[Fone Bone]

*ponder*

In "Initiation," J'onn warned GL not to get involved in the local politics. The Leaguers with him (specifically GA) did it anyway. Without consequences, as far as we know. The only one to even get a dressing-down was Kara, and that was for doing things without thinking them through first (and reminding GL of his ex, never a good thing).

In "TTTB," J'onn says they can't get involved with the local politics on Apokolips. And he does this in front of Flash, whose thoughts on the matter he can easily read. So once again the League gets involved with the local politics, but not on a "sanctioned" basis. (J'onn can always argue his involvement at the end was merely designed to restore any lost balance of power and rescue an innocent civilian caught up in events.) Wally anticipates getting yelled at but doesn't.

So is J'onn quietly manipulating members of the League into doing what the League really wants to do but can't under their own "charter"?

MM:)This is a great point and an interesting theory. We'll have to watch J'onn more closely in the future.

I love how in pretty much every episode SOMETHING could conceivably tie into the conspiracy.

[Fone Bone]

Mister Miracle's performance at the start of the episode -> for whom, and what purpose? He didn't seem to have an audience, or TV cameras at the scene.
Ooh ooh, I can answer this one! They said at the beginning that that was a practice stunt and they were just trying it out to see if Scott could do it before going in front of an audience.

[Zergrinch]

So is J'onn quietly manipulating members of the League into doing what the League really wants to do but can't under their own "charter"?Interesting.

This speculation presupposes that Justice League was re-incorporated under a new charter, under the auspices of, say, the United Nations. Perhaps, in addition to Wayne funding, the League is partially being financed by the world governments.

This has severe ramnifications, and may even result in dissension within the ranks. (Ooh, conspiracy!)


Ooh ooh, I can answer this one! They said at the beginning that that was a practice stunt and they were just trying it out to see if Scott could do it before going in front of an audience.Didn't quite catch that one.

Boy, Mr. Miracle must be a very rich guy then. I mean, that train engine didn't look like no ordinary stage prop :D
_______________

Regarding the episode preview at the end, is this all footage of just one episode, "The Doomsday Sanction"? If so, it may lend credance to the theory I've read somewhere here that the Superman-Doomsday fight is fueling the Annihilator.

From the look of things, Batman was really in a hurry (JLU being beaten black and blue in their own watchtower?), pushing two leaguers out of the way, taking a Javelin spacecraft, and immediately racing to what is presumably the arena between Supes and Doomy.

[raynos]

2. Wunderbar set up a nullification field against boob boom tube warps. So why were they able to boom back to the Watchtower in the nick of time?
Actually, I think that they didn't boom to the Watchtower, more likely Flash got them out of there using his superspeed. When Granny Goodness asked them how they got out Miracle pointed to Flash and said, "Ask him." They probably boomtubed out of there after the place was destroyed.



3. Are Mister Miracle and Big Barda members of the expanded Justice League?If Flash is right, no. Although they might consider joining after this. :anime:

[creeper]

I think they handled Mr. Miracle's escapes fine. I'm actually glad they didn't explain. No offense guys but we are extremely geeky. You know if they explain how they did it we're gonna keep tabs on how they do it. And lets say 100 episodes pass and the repeat the same escape method we're gonna be all over it. Not explaining keeps it from getting dull. As long as we still question it, it doesn't get stale.

[Casey Mack]

Great episode though it would of been Legendary if it was setup a different way. If Flash and Superman had gone to Apokolpyse to help Barda and Miracle. It would of been nice to see Superman react to being thier again. Since he was a "Son" of Darkseid and lived thier for awhile. They could have had Superman have Flashbacks, to the fake memories Granny goodness gave him of growing up their.

THiS OFCOURSE WOULD RELATE TO "LEGACY".
________
Arthritis Advice (http://www.health-forums.org/arthritis/)

[BrendaBat]

I loved this episode! Flash was as endearing as I remember and Barda and Mr Miracle were fun characters. I'm glad it didn't go too far with the Kirby references. I haven't read many non-DCAU comics so I get a little peeved when I have to troll the message boards in order to understand an episode.

I also liked the fact that poor, neglected J'onn not only got some great lines; he got to leave the tower and do something superheroic.

Was Oberon in any other Superman or JL episodes? The name sounds familar but the character didn't look familar at all.
Maybe the name only sounds familar because I watch a lot of Gargoyles. :p


Originally posted by Nanashi
A great romp. It was just plain fun (which it seems, to me, like some posters on here have forgotten to HAVE while watching this show).Amen! I didn't really pay attention to the animation quality because I was having so much fun actually watching the episode. If people would just take the sticks out of their butts before JLU comes on I'm sure we would all see more positivity on the board.

Honestly, If you anal-retentive fan-boys don't like a series then just don't watch it! It will open up free time for you to go outside, get a life, and make some off-line friends :p


Originally posted by Nanashi
Flash came back with a bang. I mean, what more could a fan ask for? He was in-character, he kicked ass, and he was more than comic relief. Not only that, but you get a bit of character development in the beginning of the ep.

I'm happy. And I can't find a good enough complaint for this episode to justify giving it anything less than 5 stars.I agree. The episode was fun and didn't get bogged down in references that confuse people who haven't read every DC comic ever made. That merits 5 stars in my book!

[Legionaire]

Not too shabby. Wasn't up to my expectations (which were admittedly high), but lots of fun nonetheless.

I give it 4 stars: 3 for the ep, 1/2 for Flash's return, and 1/2 for animating MM and Barda!

Good Points:



Opening sequence was classic Mr. Miracle--rehearsing an escape. Loved the Kirby-esque deathtrap.
Granny. Love the creepy Ed Asner VA. Plus she's so central to the MM mythos (his comic introduced her, Barda, VV, among many others)
Aerodiscs!
Flash/Elongated Man sequence. Though I may have to rescind my wish to see an episode with the two. Not looking for another "Booster Gold" sad sack ep. Too many fond memories of old Barry/Ralph teamups.
Hunger Dogs!
Arte Johnson. Nice job. I could have done without the "Verry Interresting" and "Dum Dum" homages. Thank god he didn't escape on a tricycle.
"Boob tube". "Bertha". "Can't believe I'm the mature one".
The X Pit! Though not much like the comic version, nor very much of a "pit" actually. Still a nice nod to the comics.
The rock-em sock-em robot undercurrent. "I love bashing robots!"
Barda's characterization was right on.
Cake!
"...and his cow". Such typical Kalibak
Great surprise ending with JJ as Kalibak
"I wanted the green one"
Just loved seeing one of my favorite Kirby creations on the screen. I can't recommend the early issues of his comic enough, if you can find them.
Bad Points:


Oberon's voice. The VA was good, but the voice wasn't what I was expecting or imagined for the character (I have the same problem with Green Arrow)
Virmin Vunderbar. OK as MM villains go, but not the right caliber for a would-be conqueror of Apokolips. Would have preferred someone like Dr. Bedlam. (Ah, MM issues 3-4: "The Paranoid Pill". Now that's a classic deathtrap!)
Flashbacks were distracting. Better to have a single recap of MM's origin than the constant interruptions that added little more than to demonstrate Scott had resolve.
Scott seemed too "superhero-y" at times. That's not what he's been all about.
As others have said, I found the animation flat here.
All in all, a fun ride. Really looking forward to next week also.

[John6777]

Not that great an episode but way better than Teen Titans that came before. I was glad to see Barda back to her old ways but I miss the Furries and Darkseid. I can't help but want to see Darkseid come back. All and All not that bad. Could have been better.

3 Stars

[Toddman]

Overall, I thought this was a pretty tight little episode from STERANKO. Who knew STERANKO could deliver such nice TV script. Good job STERANKO (...freakin' rock star comic book artist...).

Yes, the plot came across immediately as nothing more than the premise to a video game, but I thought the flashback sequences did a lot to raise the level of the story. I wasn't really looking for an explanation to all of Miracle's escapes, but I did expect his final escape from the X-Pit as a child to tie in more closely with his escape in the main story. A detailed portrayal of his final escape would have made the other non-explained escapes come across as a little less contrived.

Great to hear the Flash griping about his lack of screentime along with his fans.

I thought the twist at the end with J'onn was a very clever and unexpected, and seeing that JJ was the character in the story who learned the valuable lesson added strength to the script. (And look! J'onn left the confines of the Watchtower! Talk about your fan service;) !)

Also, it looks like Barda's non-armor costumed appearance was redesigned since her appearance in BB. I wonder if this is Bruce Timm's version of that look. I tought I read in the thread about Barda's previous appearance in BB's "The Call" that a couple of the other members of the crew originally designed the future-JLU characters.


...I'm a little disappointed upon glazing at it, as the animation has regressed back to.. well.. crap. Generic fighting animation, but not just that. Bad character acting in general. And one shot of them running down the corridor just looked all wrong...I'm surprised that I've seen you say in the past that you feel like STAS had the best overall and consistant quality of animation of any of the DCAU shows, yet the more poorly animated episodes of JLU (those not done by DR Movie) are still just as fluid and good looking (if not better) as the more weakly animated episodes of STAS (those not done by TMS).

Also, you usually have pretty well-thought out arguments for your harsh brand of criticism (even if your facts are sometimes wrong), but when you criticize an episode without actually having watched the whole thing, it really hurts your credibility. (I suppose you could casually glance at a show and still post a complaint, but perhaps you shouldn't tell everybody you didn't really watch it...)

Anyway, glad to hear Arte Johnson bring out his patented "Very interestink!" for Vundabarr's portrayal.


Toddman

[Style]

This episode has gotten a lot of praise for bringing back Flash, but the main reason for this episode's existence--to introduce Mr.Miracle--was flubbed a bit. (Seeing people put aside their usual antipathy to JLU and gush with praise just because Flash appeared was funny in a sick-making sort of way.)
You are on to something. You can't complain about useless cameos and then love the episode only for Flash. Flash would be one of those fan pleasers people sometimes complain about. For my part, I've stopped worrying about fan moments ruining JLU, because it's mostly, usually, an unfounded complaint.

And while your statement probably wasn't just directed at me, I personally focused on the fun I had seeing Flash again because I didn't want to complain about the episode, which does have issues. It's kind of my new "focus on the positive" approach.

[screw on head]

Watching it again, I noticed a custom 'flash frame'. During the flashback scene where Granny cracks Scott with her electrified whip, there's a neat 'Kirby dotted flash lines' frame and one bizarro painted frame. They only show up for a second, but it's a cool effect :cool:.

[EJill34]

I really liked this episode and am glad the Flash is back. I was right that there would be no explaination as to his absense in season one. Take that GMahler!:p :D (joking!)That's not the only thing I got wrong. I also predicted that Darkseid would make a surprise appearance at the end. Oh well, I guess its about time I stopped speculating about JLU.

Anyway, I thought it was a really good episode. Nothing groundbreaking, but it was still enjoyable. Mr. Miracle's introduction could have been handled a bit better. He's supposed to be the world's greatest escape artist so I don't think it was fair that we never learned how he escaped the traps he was in.

The previews on the other hand, looked fraggin' amazing. I really can't wait for next week. Too bad its probably going to be the last new episode for awhile.

[Knight]

Also, Elongated Man comments on having done the superhero thing longer than Flash. I guess that means in DCAU he was around even before Superman, Flash, and possibly Green Lantern were.You seem to be jumping the gun. Being around before Flash doesnt automatically mean that he was around before Superman, Green Lantern or anyone else.



8. Kalabak imprisoned on Earth?! Are they trying to invite Darkseid there?! Why not a less populated planet? :shrug:
1. Darkseid is dead so it really doesnt matter.

2.This isnt the first time Kalibak has been imprisoned on Earth (Hereafter) so this will actually be the second time since daddy Darkseid has been dead that he has been doing time on Earth.


After watching the Mr. Miracle - Flash romp, I am left with the following questions:

Oh, and please enlighten me. Who is Oberon, and what is his connection to Mister Miracle in the comics?The same as it was in this ep which is esentially a assistant.Oberon was also a fixture in the Justice League comic during the Keith Giffen era of which he served on the team as more of a administrator.




Not the best ep but it had some good points.

Darkseid is still "dead" which is good

Mr. Miracle is not a member of The League. (Glad to see that there are some people who didn't join.

Michael Dorn as Kalibak rules. I loved his dialog in the ep.

J'onn not only gets out of the tower but uses his powers morphing and extracting info from Granny's mind. The voice did seem different somewhat though.

I wasnt a big "where's Flash" guy but it was nice to see him in a ep and kicking lots of butt to boot. I swear The Flash has Sean William Scott written all over him. I enjoy the humor he adds.

I'm going to give the ep a generous 3 stars because the animation wasn't that great and I just didn't care for the Mr. Miracles flashback all that much. But im sure it helped those who don't know about him already.

The most anticipated ep for me is next weeks battle royal.

[Casey Mack]

[QUOTE=Knight]You seem to be jumping the gun. Being around before Flash doesnt automatically mean that he was around before Superman, Green Lantern or anyone else.

Well since Flash has been around as long as Supes in DCAU, i would say Eloganted man could of been around as long as Batman.
________
Hot box vape (http://hotboxvaporizers.com)

[The Master Con]

They've really downgraded Apokolips. What used to be a mighty force that seemed that only the greatest in the universe could even contend with is now nothing more than a generic alien world that was used for a comedic episode. I didn't have the same amount fear that I had when we visited Apokolips in STAS. I mean a parody of Hitler was able to not only muster an army but contend for ruler of Apokolips? From which his entire army was beaten by 3 superheros and one supervillain? Sorry but I find it hard to ever respect Apokolips again.

The concept of the Justice League's interference on Apokolips' Civil War and Miracle having to return to his homeworld was a great idea, that was unfortunantly poorly executed and used as nothing more than a backdrop for Flash's return.

[thanos28542]

I thought it was a great episode! 2 things that I noticed were Martian Manhunter VA sounded different, was that Carl Lumbly or not? The animation was not as fluid as the previous week, did a different studio animate this one? It sucks that after next weeks episode we have to wait till mid April if not later to see a new JLU episode. Maybe Mr Miracle uses a transportation device to escape his traps cuz that's the only way I can think of that he escaped the 1st one where the train lands on him.

[WonderRaver]

I enjoyed this episode a great deal. Not 5 stars great, but great nonetheless. I enjoyed all of the characters. Mr. Miracle was stylin' with that hair in the opening wasn't he? I would've liked a little more Oberon, but he got a few good lines in. I loved Barda, yet she made me a little upset at the same time... a little more on that in a bit. Granny Goodness, Vunderbar and Kalibak were all perfect; in character and VA. Finally, FLASH!!! I must admit, he ain't my favorite JLer... or even my second or third. But I've missed the bugger. This episode made it seem like he hadn't been gone at all.

Back to Barda... I really did like her, but as someone said earlier on this board, she was almost too close to Wonder Woman. Now, as a WonderFan, it doesn't sit too well with me. But my problem isn't with Barda, so much as how Diana is inconsistantly written. I won't go into it here (as I've griped about this elsewhere). I'll just say that Barda was spot on. This is how Barda should be written.

-Matt

[BillA1]

This was an episode that I really enjoyed probably for all the wrong reasons. I didn’t realize how much the Flash brought to the JL until I saw him in this program. And he was right. He is no sidekick or comic relief - just a solid hero in his own right.


On a side note I am somewhat disappointed that the two most adamant defenders of Shayera relative to her re-admission to the league have been relegated to administrative functions or put on ignore.


Big Barda made this episode for me. I thought she was well characterized. She was shown as focused on her mission, caring for her mate and fierce in battle. In short, she was a “Fury.” When the armor came on, I thought to myself “This is what Wonder Woman should be like everyday.” I hope we see more of Big Barda and Scott Free. They are a good couple together.


I thought all of the voice acting was good but I admit that I am one of those who can listen to Michael Dorn read a grocery list and think he did it well. His voice has that flair, that pop, to me that Raymond Burr’s voice had. Distinctive and turns heads.


Nice job on this episode. Very nice job.

Bill:cool:

[Fone Bone]

On a side note I am somewhat disappointed that the two most adamant defenders of Shayera relative to her re-admission to the league have been relegated to administrative functions or put on ignore.


I never thought of it that way, but that is a VERY interesting point. True, J'onn is pretty much the boss now but I can't help wonder why Flash was relegated to the Watchtower. Anyone who thinks the only thing he can do is run real fast has never seen him at his best.

But the connection of J'onn and Wally being Shayera's staunchest defenders never really dawned on me until you mentioned it. It IS kind of suspicious.

[Knight]

[QUOTE=Knight]You seem to be jumping the gun. Being around before Flash doesnt automatically mean that he was around before Superman, Green Lantern or anyone else.

Well since Flash has been around as long as Supes in DCAU, i would say Eloganted man could of been around as long as Batman. We dont know how long Wally has been Flash or if he debuted before or after Superman in the DCAU. The only thing we know from his first appearance in STAS "Speed Demons" is that Flash had made a name for himself by the time he and Superman raced.Thats not really saying much on who was here first though.

[Pyro]

I don't think this episode was anything to complain about. I rather enjoyed it. I like that JLU gives us episodes with distinctive tones. Much more variety than the first two seasons, but I still like them both.

This episode was very Jack Kirby. I've never read his writing, but I know much of it was based on his creations. And I was surprised how much this episode resembled his art, without deviating from the regular Timm style. Interesting.

I never really knew much about Mr. Miracle, but I liked him in this episode, and I think I have a understanding of his character because of it. The flashbacks didn't seem pointless to me. They told us about his past, what Granny did to him and the rest of them, how escaping is what he does. I thought they served their purpose.

It was nice to see Flash in a new episode, he did seem a little out of place, but not so that the episode didn't work.

I thought the story was solid, and gave each character good time. The animation wasn't as noticably awesome as last week's ep, but I didn't think it was bad. There were a few flaws, but for the most part it was good. Very nice episode.

[Maxie Zeus]

It's a nitpick, but ...


a parody of Hitler

No, he was not a parody of Hitler. Not every German accent = Hitler. Both in terms of design and attitude Vunderbarr was clearly modeled on the stereotype of an aristocratic Prussian field marshal; Erich von Falkenhayn, for instance:

http://www.milex.de/f/falkenhayn.gif

[Legionaire]

The previews on the other hand, looked fraggin' amazing. I really can't wait for next week. Too bad its probably going to be the last new episode for awhile. I had thought so too, but there's a TV Tome entry that indicates there's one more to come.
Double Date the week after The Doomsday Sanction.
Do they know something we don't?

Say, what was the "extra" meaning about the title "The Ties that Bind" that b.t. mentioned anyway? Simply the Barda+Scott and Scott+Granny and "escape artisty" links that everyone had suspected? Or was there some other reference I missed?

[The Master Con]

It's a nitpick, but ...



No, he was not a parody of Hitler. Not every German accent = Hitler. Both in terms of design and attitude Vunderbarr was clearly modeled on the stereotype of an aristocratic Prussian field marshal; Erich von Falkenhayn, for instance:

http://www.milex.de/f/falkenhayn.gif
Yes, yes. I know. I was using the term as a figure of speech.

[WonderRaver]

But the connection of J'onn and Wally being Shayera's staunchest defenders never really dawned on me until you mentioned it. It IS kind of suspicious.
I don't think it is so much suspicious as it is coincidental. Remember that Superman voted for Shayera. And I wouldn't say that John was a "nay" just because he abstained from the vote.

-Matt

[KuwabaraTheMan]

We dont know how long Wally has been Flash or if he debuted before or after Superman in the DCAU. The only thing we know from his first appearance in STAS "Speed Demons" is that Flash had made a name for himself by the time he and Superman raced.Thats not really saying much on who was here first though.
But we know that Superman hadn't been around for THAT long at the time of "Speed Demons". And if Ralph says he's been around longer than Wally, he probably means at least a few years, not that he debuted the month before him. So it puts him as debuting around the time of Batman: TAS, or maybe even a couple years before then.

[EJill34]

I had thought so too, but there's a TV Tome entry that indicates there's one more to come.
Double Date the week after The Doomsday Sanction.
Do they know something we don't?Never trust TV Tome. 2/26 will be a repeat of "TGSNT." CN just released their schedule through April 4th and JLU is all repeats, with the April 2nd episode being "TOAFT, Part 1." Expect repeats for the rest of April with new episodes probably resuming in May (because its a sweeps month and the JLU crew probably doesn't have any episodes past "Doomsday Sanction" completed).

The schedule will probably look something like this:
May 7th - "Episode 17"
May 14th - "Episode 18"
May 21st - "Episode 19"
May 28th - "Episode 20"
June 4th - "Episode 21"

They'll probably save the 4-part finale for a little later.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

It's funny how initial expectations can color your opinion of an episode. I was listening to this episode while fussing around in the kitchen last night, and thought to myself, "No offense to Jack Kirby, but New Gods can be really cheesy sometimes."

Then I watched the episode this morning. A villain named "Virman Vundabar," complete with the same accent and menace as Colonel Klink, and a supervillain hideout complete with deathtraps right where they're needed and super-auto-destructo device (BTW, for those who still care, that is how Kirby spelled it, bad German phoneiticization and all). I still have a hard time taking "Granny Goodness" seriously. This episode was not just cheesy, it was REALLY REALLY cheesy. It was cheesier than these guys (http://www.ilovecheese.com). You could probably end world hunger with the cheese from this episode.

And yet, I loved it, precisely because it was so unapologetically, unrelentingly cheesy. Sometimes you want something deep and meaningful that works on a lot of different levels, and sometimes you just want a lot of puncheminnaface with bright colors and a nice, easy way to tell who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.

It's also a great episode to bring the Flash back with, since he never seems to take himself all that seriously. I think this would have been a dramatically different episode if they HAD managed to score Superman, and I don't think it would have been for the better. It wasn't until he started talking that my wife and I both said how much we really missed having him around.

Other random notes:

- Was it just me, or was Oberon's design another quiet nod to Kirby himself?

- "Cake." Bwah-hah-hah-hah-hah! I think this was the moment when the cheese factor won me over fully.

- I hate to say this, but Barda is SOOO much cooler than Wonder Woman right around now.

- The water trap escape. Mister Miracle grabs his last breath and then visibly takes a second to look at the big vent where the water is coming into the chamber. I think his escape was to wait until the chamber was full and then swim up through the hole (maybe with the help of his little flying disc things) and find his way out from there. Didn't seem like as much of a cheat to me. The only unexplained escape was the one at the start, which was so ridiculously over the top that I didn't really need one. It's less a "how did he do that" trick as much as a "yes, he really is the world's greatest escape artist" trick.

- The fighting scenes were OK. The first one with Flash, Barda, and Mr. Miracle was a blast, but the second one with Barda and Kalibak tearing into Apokalips bots didn't seem to have the gleeful bone-crunching zest some of JLU's best fight scenes did.

So call it four stars for fully embracing the cheese in the concept and running with it way farther than you'd think it would go.

-- Ed/Ace

[adoptedBatpuppy]

Flash was Great in this Episode. His jokes are funny, and the story wasn't too bad. I didn't know Mr. Miracle and Big Barda were married? How come they are not part of JLU? I thought, I saw them in the episode "Initiation" :sweat:

[bobspoland]

Never trust TV Tome. 2/26 will be a repeat of "TGSNT." CN just released their schedule through April 4th and JLU is all repeats, with the April 2nd episode being "TOAFT, Part 1." Expect repeats for the rest of April with new episodes probably resuming in May (because its a sweeps month and the JLU crew probably doesn't have any episodes past "Doomsday Sanction" completed).

The schedule will probably look something like this:
May 7th - "Episode 17"
May 14th - "Episode 18"
May 21st - "Episode 19"
May 28th - "Episode 20"
June 4th - "Episode 21"

They'll probably save the 4-part finale for a little later.
remenber b.t said that there was going too be breaks inbetween some of the new epsiodes as they werent finished yet.

anyways too the epsiode. it was funny, i love seeing flash back. Brada reminds me of someone.....mood swings, alot of anger...wait thats wonderwoman :p 2 questions though. what happen too Jonn voice at the end?? and keeping Kalibak on earth, bad idea......darksied will return for him.... 3 and half stars

[Supremus]

Not a classic, but far better than a running-the-Apokolips-gauntlet should have been.

That's really all I have to say about that. :)

[EJill34]

remenber b.t said that there was going too be breaks inbetween some of the new epsiodes as they werent finished yet.
I'm sure that YTV will air a few new episodes before us so that will help people (like me) dying for new JLU during those breaks. Though, I swear I'm going to stay away from JLU spoilers from now on. Really.

[Knight]

- I hate to say this, but Barda is SOOO much cooler than Wonder Woman right around now.


What makes her cooler than Diana? Barda has perhaps the worst attitude out of all the female heroes in the animated DCU. She seems to have this inherent need to smash things and beat up people every time something doesn't go her way. True to form she was this annoying in The Call as well. I was half hoping that she would have went ahead and hit J'onn after he told her they weren't going to help just so he could mop the floor with her. I don't find her walking around calling people cowards and getting ready to beat people up at the drop of a dime "cool".

Give me Wonder Woman any day.

[WonderRaver]

A big problem in my opinion is how all of the women in the JLU are very similar. The word that comes to mind is headstrong. Diana, Shayera (before Starcrossed anyway), Barda, Supergirl, Vixen, and even Black Canary. (Zatanna, not so much). I like my heroines confident, but not so Xena-like. Is it because of Xena's success that we got this caricature for women?

I love Starfire in TT because of her attitude. I would have loved that fresh attitude (a little more mature though) for WW, since she was fresh from the island and all.

Anyway, the Xena attitude is great for Barda, but a little variance would be nice for everyone else.

-Matt

[Captain Clown]

I agree with Maxie. Pretty much everything that can go wrong with a JLU episode did, and it came down to being series of average action scenes revolving around boring characters. Without seeing how Mr. Miracle is getting out of those traps, he's just another guy in a goofy costume smashing things.

Well, at least Flash was in it.

[Stu]

I really enjoyed it. Whilst it's not quite as good as last week's episode, I don't think it was ever intended to be. It's always cool to see Flash, and to honest, I find his childish, stupid jokes to be very amusing, and always have done. And there you have Amazing Spidey's secret shame. :)

One thing that did bug me, was Mr. Miracle's eyes. They screamed "LOOK AT ME!" more than Chronos from last season's finale. I've always dug the characters having white slits for thier eyes (I swear, I can barely look at The Atom or The Flash in the comics, they're that damn distracting!) and here they just seemed odd. As in, "now this shouldn't be!" odd :D

It was simply fun. It worked on some levels, like Flash's return, but failed to capture any mystery from Mr. Miracle. His voice, whom I will soon become to call Reed Richards himself (or, rather, for the love of God I hope I will :sweat: ) was great. Say what you will about the show's animation, dialouge or even it's stories, but good God it's got a great cast.

I'm in no great rush to see Mr. Miracle again, but don't loathe the idea of him appearing again. I've gotta say "Miracles Happen" would've been a much better title than "Ties That Bind". I get how the ties titles leads into the blackmailing angle from Granny, but it still seems a little naff. (That's British for you ;) )

One question, was the little dude voiced by the same guy who played Dan Turpin? Another Kirby reference perhaps?

[Supremus]

A big problem in my opinion is how all of the women in the JLU are very similar. The word that comes to mind is headstrong. Diana, Shayera (before Starcrossed anyway), Barda, Supergirl, Vixen, and even Black Canary. (Zatanna, not so much). I like my heroines confident, but not so Xena-like. Is it because of Xena's success that we got this caricature for women?I agree it would be interesting to see different kinds of personalities, but I don't think it's really JLU's, or even Xena's fault that we don't get that much female variety on the show. Barda, Wonder Woman, etc, are pretty faithful to their comics versions, but JL(U) sometimes still manage to sneak in a bit of subtlety from time to time, within the constraints of being an action show, and seeing Barda's softer side at the end of TTTB is something that would be rare even in the comics, even though they have had decades to flesh out the character rather than just a couple of episodes, if you count "The Call".

Because the Justice League heroes are supposed to be iconic and majestic, there isn't as much room for fun little character quirks like you see on Teen Titans.

[Maxie Zeus]

Yes, yes. I know. I was using the term as a figure of speech.

Ah.

And, actually, I wasn't aiming my comment so much at you. :) "Hitler" has shown up a couple of times in this thread, and your post was the most recent, so that was the one that I grabbed for a quote.

[Revelator]

http://www.milex.de/f/falkenhayn.gif
That picture is the best thing to appear on this thread. There should be an entire website called "Pictures of Aristocratic Prussian Field Marshals (and the women who love them)." Anyway, I'm in agreement--an over-the-top German accent doesn't neccesarily connote Hitler at all. Had Vundebar ranted and screamed at the top of his voice, like John Cleese in Monty Python's "Hilter" sketch, then the comparison would be justified, but as the similarity between Vunderbar and von Falkenhayn's uniforms suggests, Vundebar is a parody of the ram-rod straight, iron-heeled German old-guard military men who have given the world endless amusement. While I'm on the topic, let me say how perfect Arte Johnson was in the role. Delicious voice work.

[Alex Weitzman]

My thoughts on The Ties That Bind:

Magicians and escape artists, by the nature of their trade, require the grandest level of willing suspension of disbelief. We know it's a show. They only do these "magical" things on a stage, where we know there's plenty of tools and tricks for them to achieve their illusions. It's the art of misdirection, not magic. For Mr. Miracle, we are to assume that he is greater than this, because he doesn't confine his abilities to a stage. The opening scene toys with us just the same as David Copperfield might, but it's acceptable because it's meant for a show. On the other hand, his later escape from the water trap is no mere entertainment, and that's where the episode sadly fails. Sorry, pal, but you don't quite have the cred yet to pull the ol' switcheroo on the audience. When the Flash says, "Trade secret," we can hazard a pretty good guess as to what that secret is. When Mr. Miracle says it, it's just a copout.

Lesser episodes of JLU like Hawk and Dove and Dark Heart, even with their various shortcomings, managed to effectively showcase and/or introduce JLU's new heroes, characters heretofore unseen in the DCAU. Mr. Miracle has the ignominious position of being JLU's first real weak showing for a new hero. Based on this episode alone, Mr. Miracle exhibits one of the blandest personalities yet presented in the League (even if he doesn't officially belong). The one instance where he could have presented a side of himself that was less square-chinned-hero - his refusal to let Barda and Flash accompany him - was rendered moot by his inability to actually argue the point. The scene boiled down to: "Don't come with me." "No, we're coming." "Okay, let's go!" Some of this may be due to the idea of Miracle being some sort of beacon of hope (it's the only thing his flashbacks seem to be saying). The only way that would be effectively portrayed is if the rest of The Ties That Bind, cast and atmosphere and plot all in one,is a paragon of hopelessness. This is most obviously not the case, as the episode is far too willfully silly to present a dark place that Scott Free can shine through.

There are other problems with The Ties That Bind, like weaker animation and less-interesting fights(save one element that will be mentioned later), but DCAU fans are used to these problems sometimes popping up, even in great episodes like Mad as a Hatter. When it comes to pointing the finger at why this episode disappoints, it can fall squarely on Scott. Why did they have to take him in this yawn of a direction? According to my comic-knowledgeable buddies, Mr. Miracle was known as something of a wild card amongst the New Gods, even a preening showboater. Frankly, I'd have preferred seeing his characterization go even farther with that. He's an escape artist, so let's get some Vegas into his personality, for chrissakes. Make him hot-to-trot, and not only do you have a more intriguing schmuck that would be worth watching, but you'd also have a character born to create friction between himself and the other characters. Friction is what was sorely lacking. A goofy non-villain like Vermin Vunderbarr will work fine if the heroes themselves can provide enough conflict without his input. That's why Vermin makes far less of an impact in this episode than Granny Goodness, a character that just oozes friction by virtue of both history and characterization. If Mr. Miracle had some Siegfield and Roy in him, then just imagine what fun his interactions with Barda and Flash could've been.

Still, the episode is not a total loss. It is a weak showing for JLU, because Miracle is the episode's driving force and he is the main faltering element. But like Pretty Poison, the episode manages to assist another characterization while missing the point of the main one. Here, Mr. Miracle's loss is the Flash's gain. It's refreshing to be brought back into the world of Wally West, a superhero that manages to earn both respect and disrespect in almost the same breath. He's been one of the League's strongest characterizations from the very beginning, and Wally was in fine form here. The one time the fighting got good for me was when Wally let loose on their initial arrival at Apokolips. He's also still the funniest League member. And despite it essentially being a subplot, the Flash's arc in the episode proves to be The Ties That Bind's most insightful and interesting quality. Like in A Better World, we once again see that the Flash is a crucial member of the League by virtue of his relentless humanity, something that may be lost in the grand design of the new League support system, which J'onn most clearly represents. Wally's willingness to break protocol to help Miracle and Barda speaks volumes, and it's heartwarming to see that J'onn is still open to this alternate viewpoint, as seen in the end. The Ties That Bind doesn't do much for its new characters, but for those two old regulars, it's a welcome return.

[DLM]

Actually its a very strong showing for JLU, probably the strongest since Wake the Dead. Unlike last week the dialouge moved along, and there were no embarasing drop offs in the plot. It was a great action adventure from start to end. I will agree that Mr. MIracle needed a little bit more oomph to his debut. The flashbacks were well done I thought, but I maintain that it we have started the episode off with an escape where we saw EXACTLY what he did, some really impressive feat, and then were left wondering how he did all the rest of his escapes in this episode, all the flaws would have gone away. Still, I like this episode much more than Cat and Canary.

[Revelator]

Congrats Alex--you managed to articulate every criticism of this episode that I did and didn't notice much better than I could. You pointed out the major flaws in depth--the cheated traps, the blandness of Miracle's character and what could have been, etc.--without dismissing this episode as a whole, but instead also noting its major strength.
Toonzone should put your review on the upcoming World's Finest page for this episode, because a better one won't arrive any time soon.

[VivatGrendel]

I'll echo everyone else's comments - God, it's good to have the Flash back. Hoepfully, we'll see him alot more often.

Mister Miracle, Barda, and Oberon - As a fan of JL comics for the past 15 years, it was great to see them, too. Well handled, as well.

And the guests - Kalibak - and Granny Goodness - Very cool.

The story was alittle flat, I'll give that. The flashbacks were a nice touch though.

Overall, a very pleasing ep.

Matt

[William C. Maune]

Others have already said the reasons better, but I thought this was probably the weakest JLU episode yet (that being said I have enjoyed all the episodes to an extent, I liked "Hawk and Dove"). I hate to use the term "bad" because there were elements of the episode I liked and thus it wasn't a total loss by any means. for an episode that was largely about Mr. Miracle, he came off as very bland and thus most of the parts with him were just rather boring and didn't do it for me. The only thing I really got out of the flashbacks was more chances to hear some great lines by Ed Asner. Most characters I look forward to seeing again. However, Elongated Man's excellent little scene did more for me here than Mr. Miracle.

That being said, Flash and Martian Manhunter were pretty good here. It wasn't so much b/c Flash had been gone for awhile, there's been a lot of other characters to focus on and I bought the reason for his absence, but I just thought Flash was handled well in this episode. Anyway, you can't win them all and I can't complain too much after a really good episode with "The Can and the Canary" and an extremely cool episode with TOAFT: Part 2.

[WonderRaver]

I agree it would be interesting to see different kinds of personalities, but I don't think it's really JLU's, or even Xena's fault that we don't get that much female variety on the show. Barda, Wonder Woman, etc, are pretty faithful to their comics versions....
I disagree. I guess since I am an avid fan of Wonder Woman, I see major differences between the cartoon character and the comic one, which I won't go into here. Just to be clear though, I am talking personality-wise, not power-wise. Sure, Barda is pretty much like her comic counterpart. And Hawkgirl, I guess, was closest to the "Hawkworld" Hawkgirl. But, I have a feeling that Gail Simone's Black Canary will be different from the one last week. The point is, there are differences in the comics; why not in the show.

Oh, and if majestic is the reason for not being fleshed out personality-wise, then get rid of majestic.

Not trying to argue with you Supremus, just trying to get my (loud) opinion out there. :D

[CPI Guy]

First off...GREAT to see Flash! He has been missed, and I felt he was used pretty well in this episode. Hopefully he'lll be back!! Secondly, this was not the worst show of JLU, but it wasn't the best either...Mister Miracle and Barda are good characters...I guess maybe it felt rushed! Also-thought we might see the return of Darkseid...not to be yet ! I am looking forward to this Saturday's episode with Superman & Doomsday!

[Fone Bone]

One question, was the little dude voiced by the same guy who played Dan Turpin? Another Kirby reference perhaps?Joseph Bologna played Dan Turpin while Dick Miller (Gremlins) played Oberon.

Miller also played Chuckie Sol (the first baddie offed by Phantasm) in Batman: Mask of the Phantasm.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


What makes her cooler than Diana? Barda has perhaps the worst attitude out of all the female heroes in the animated DCU. She seems to have this inherent need to smash things and beat up people every time something doesn't go her way.
Well, mostly I'm thinking Barda is cooler than Diana because she DOES make an impression on you. She may be two-dimensional and predictable and about as subtle as a rhino painted in neon-green polka dots blaring two air-horns, but I feel like that gives her about one dimension more than we've seen in the Animated Age Wonder Woman on far too many occasions.

I've babbled at length about where I think WW belongs amongst the trinity, but I ain't writing the show and that's a topic for another time, really.

-- Ed/Ace

[I-Am That Is]

My thoughts:

I liked this ep, cuz it was fun.

Nowhere near as good as TCATC, but well, that's to be expected.

[GF2814]

How come Michael Dorn did Kalibak this season and in season 2, but didn't do Steel in The Return? (I think Phil LaMarr took over)

Other than that it was Ok. I thought Barda was too stiff though and I was really dissappointed to not see the secrets of Scotts escapes. The Riddler eps in B:TAS would have been alot worse had some of the puzzles and traps gone unexplained, IE Riddlers Reform.

[Supremus]

I disagree. I guess since I am an avid fan of Wonder Woman, I see major differences between the cartoon character and the comic one, which I won't go into here. Just to be clear though, I am talking personality-wise, not power-wise. Sure, Barda is pretty much like her comic counterpart. And Hawkgirl, I guess, was closest to the "Hawkworld" Hawkgirl. But, I have a feeling that Gail Simone's Black Canary will be different from the one last week. The point is, there are differences in the comics; why not in the show.Like they did with BTAS and STAS, I guess Team JLU is trying to use what is considered the definitive and popular versions of the characters. Of course there will be certain variations in the comics depending on who's writing them, and although I can't pretend to have been keeping that close an eye on Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl/Woman over the years, they are pretty much the way I expected them to be, as were Barda and Black Canary, and it's not my impression that the Wonder Woman comics tend to do particularly well when they try to do different things with the character. Every now and then she has a reboot and stays popular while she is still true to the fundamentals, but then the writers stray and sales go right out the window. That's not the only reason, of course, but still...

This kind of feels like the "do all the women look the same" discussion, and just like the DCAU woman all are variations on the cat-eyed hourglass figure, I would agree that there is a Xena'esqu personality aspect to many of them, but they are superheroes, so it's hard to get around that.


Oh, and if majestic is the reason for not being fleshed out personality-wise, then get rid of majestic.I don't think it gets in the way of fleshing them out as characters, it's just that some of them wouldn't seem like themselves if they were too jolly or playful. Supergirl is an example of a character that doesn't quite fit that mould, and she is much closer to someone like Starfire, but without being annoying. I actually went from hating Hawkgirl to her becoming my favorite character over the course of the series, and she has certainly had plenty of "fleshing out" even if she didn't end up being a goofball with a schoolgirl crush on Robin as a result. :)

Again, I am not opposed to seeing different personalities emerge, but I still think they have done a good enough job with the women we have seen so far. Maybe if (when?) we get a chance to see Star from Star & S.T.R.I.P.E, or some of the other female members, perhaps we will get to see something else.


Not trying to argue with you Supremus, just trying to get my (loud) opinion out there. :DNothing wrong with a good argument. Here's one: Maybe you just have issues with powerful and assertive women? :)

[RAINMAN]

I`m so happy flash is back I can cry.:crying: That was a nice ep`s althougth I hope to see how MR. mircal got out of those traps but i guess it`s like he say, there trade secerts.

[Vixen]

Kind of late posting, but that's what happens when you get a power outage.

First, I hope that the Flash fans are happy.
Second, this episode was B O R I N G. I didn't miss the Flash, & stories about Apokolips never really interested me. (Sorry, I never saw Twilight.)
Third, next week's episode looks very promising. I hope it is.

[Teo]

I have to say I'm surprised this episode hasn't gone over well and some others have. I really enjoyed it! It took care of most the problems I thought JLU has had; there was no Batman, there was a small cast, and it had the Flash! The Flash was actually shown as competent (no running really fast and getting knocked down), he stuck it to the bureaucracy that is JLU, and he earned the respect of Manhunter. And Manhunter actually seemed interesting and likeable at the end there, not to mention he was able to use his powers well too. Manhunter and Flash were the two most neutered characters on the show so seeing them pull off the cool stuff is satisfying. As far as entertaining episodes of JLU go, there aren't many better than this.

[stwasm]

Was it just me, or did Vunderbar remind me a lot of Baron Von Butcher from the old "Lancelot Link: Secret Chimp Hour?"

[Dens Maris]

Just a really, really fun episode. While the real star of the show was supposed to be Mr. Miracle, it ended up being The Flash. Really funny, really entertaining, and...why did I find Big Barda hot...:sweat:

Next week's has me shivering.

[Outlander00]

Overall it was a solid episode... It wasnt suppose to be an epic type of story but a fun release. Nice to see Flash back (and yes... Granny too to an extent :p) as well as intro of Mr. Miracle and Berda! It wasnt a GREAT story but it was enjoyable none the less. :)

[creeper]

Is it going to be revealed that Mr. Miracle possesses the
anti-life equation ?

[EJill34]

Is it going to be revealed that Mr. Miracle possesses the
anti-life equation ?
Well, Mr. Miracle will most likely appear again later this season so its possible.

[Knight]

he stuck it to the bureaucracy that is JLU, and he earned the respect of Manhunter.Did Flash really stick it to the bureaucracy? J'onn had a legit reason for not going into Apoklips although I will admit that I didn't completely agree with his decision however he did have some strong points.

J'onn' s main concern was about helping a new power come into affect on Apokalips by assisting Mr. Miracle in helping Granny Goodness achieve her goal. The League doesn't want to do that. They don't want to help the forces of Apokalips become organized for the possible threat of them striking out at other planets. They say the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few sometimes and J'onn felt it best for the League to remain neutral even though it might cost someone (Oberon) their life.

I think J'onn would have really tried more and would have if it had been someone else. Does anyone think J'onn have made this same decision if it had been a member of the League being held captive? I think not. The League would have went in 10 or 20 strong if necessary or would have atleast played along until they found their imprisoned comrade. The only thing I fault J'onn for is not even attempting to come up with a reasonable plan to try and helpMr. Miracle.

As far as Flash I think he did earn some respect from J'onn. He went against orders and boldly told him he would do it again under the right circumstances. But was Flash completely right in doing what HE did? If things had played out the way Granny wanted them to I would say "no" because she would have had Kalibak and possibly control of Apoklips. Possibly allowing the planet to become a threat to others just as J'onn theorized could happen.

So I think everyone had a legitimate angle to this dilema fortunately things worked out for all the good guys. They get J'onn to step in. He reads Granny's mind, they rescue Oberon and they take the recently rescued Kalibak and imprison him on Earth. A Happy ending for most I would say. .

[LightAngel]

It was just so great having Flash and J'onn back, and with an actual purpose! Flash's little dialogue with that other guy, who's name escapes me, made me very happy. I just liked that his absence was at least acknowledged just a little. I knew nothing about Mr. Miracle or this Barda person, but I really enjoyed their presence in this episode. I wouldn't even mind seeing them again. I was also actually surprised that Kalibak was actually J'onn at the end. I like it when I'm surprised!

[FunTurtle]

I thought I saw something fishy in this episode.

When the self destruct sequence goes off, and the camera pans out and you see that silly man flying off in his Neutrinos car from TMNT, you see the place explode, and JUST as the scene starts to fade away, this red blur wipes over the screen. Could be nothing, but it could be the Flash running them out of there. It was obviously Flash that did it, because he said "Trade Secret" at the end, and they couldn't use boom tubes. I'm too lazy to go pause it, maybe later.

[Fone Bone]

Is it going to be revealed that Mr. Miracle possesses the
anti-life equation ?Comics spoiler so I peeked. Could someone give me a run-down on the Anti-Life Equation in DC Comics? I know people have said that even Jack Kirby didn't know exactly what is was but I could've swore I heard on this board that it was the power to get people to do exactly what you say and that's why Darkseid wanted it so bad. I remember reading that it was possessed by a samurai in the DC universe a while back who was a good guy and a gangster in the modern age. How does Mr. Miracle possess it in the comics? Is it the same deal with him? If he does possess it why didn't he just order Granny to give back Oberon on the show?

[WonderRaver]

Maybe you just have issues with powerful and assertive women? :)
Nah, I just have issues with people not immediately loving my favorite heroine! :D

-Matt

[Jade_GL]

I personally liked the episode. Didn't love it completely, but it had some snappy one liners, an ok plot to hang action on, and I got to see my favorite New Gods, Mr. Miracle and Big Barda.

Big Barda is awesome. I don't care what anyone says. The characterization was perfect, I liked the mention of her Apokolips backstory, and her loving moments with her husband and Oberon, which contrasted nicely with her blood lust approach to fighting. Man, I couldn't get enough of Big Barda and I hope this won't be the last of her.

In fact, I think I may actually have a new avatar that isn't featuring a certain green-skinned lady soon... Just a hunch.

The animation wasn't as stunning as last week, and the fights weren't as kinetic, but I thought the sharp one liners and new and interesting characters made up for that in spades. Also, we got two of the big 7 that haven't seen barely any (or no) action, so that's always a plus. :D

[I-Am That Is]

Questions I've thought of, all revolving around Orion:

1. Why isn't Orion taking advantage of Darkseid's disappearance? I mean, the treaty was between Darkseid & Highfather. W/ Darkseid gone, there's no reason for Orion not to launch an invasion or something.

2. Why did Mr. Miracle & Barda go to the League for help, rather than their fellow New Gods?

3. So, if Orion is in the League, how come Barda & Mr. Miracle aren't? After all, they have a much bigger attachment to Earth than he does.

[b.t.]

How come Michael Dorn did Kalibak this season and in season 2, but didn't do Steel in The Return? (I think Phil LaMarr took over)

the only reason we didn't have michael back as steel was purely budgetary...we have a ceiling on how many actors we can use per episode, and maxed-out on "the return".......with episodes that require extra-large casts, we're often forced to have our actors play multiple parts (s.a.g. rules allow us to have each actor voice up to three different characters per episode)...just one of the many reasons why people like phil lamar and jennifer hale are worth their weight in gold...

[Squall]

Questions I've thought of, all revolving around Orion:

1. Why isn't Orion taking advantage of Darkseid's disappearance? I mean, the treaty was between Darkseid & Highfather. W/ Darkseid gone, there's no reason for Orion not to launch an invasion or something.

2. Why did Mr. Miracle & Barda go to the League for help, rather than their fellow New Gods?

3. So, if Orion is in the League, how come Barda & Mr. Miracle aren't? After all, they have a much bigger attachment to Earth than he does.
You have excellent questions! I think I have a possible answer for the third question though -- maybe Big Barda & Mr. Miracle don't yet have a strong attachment to Earth, in animated continuity (which is totally seperate from the comics, as I'm sure you already know).


...(s.a.g. rules allow us to have each actor voice up to three different characters per episode)...
Why does the Screen Actor's Guild have stupid rules like that? What purpose are rules like that supposed to serve?

[Fone Bone]

the only reason we didn't have michael back as steel was purely budgetary...we have a ceiling on how many actors we can use per episode, and maxed-out on "the return".......with episodes that require extra-large casts, we're often forced to have our actors play multiple parts (s.a.g. rules allow us to have each actor voice up to three different characters per episode)...just one of the many reasons why people like phil lamar and jennifer hale are worth their weight in gold...Does this mean he could potentially be back as Steel in the Future? Or is Phil Lamarr Steel's new permanent voice? (I like Micheal Dorn.)

[Teo]

2. Why did Mr. Miracle & Barda go to the League for help, rather than their fellow New Gods?
I figure that their mission would be even more controversial with the New Gods than with the JL. And they were basically looking for Superman so it was the right way to go.


Also, we got two of the big 7 that haven't seen barely any (or no) action, so that's always a plus. No kidding! Manhunter actually stepped outside the watchtower! How is this episode not getting more 5's?

---
Gunnm

[DerekPowers]

Ok, I finally get around to reviewing this ep. Here's what i thought:

I liked ALL the stuff in the Watchtower. Loved it actually. I think the stuff between Flash and J'onn was spot on, and i loved the JLU politics. The show needs more of that stuff.

The Flash was awesome. I liked his dialogue, his 'making friends' with Barda, the way he used his powers, everything. He was great in it.

I loved how J'onn helped out on a mission, finally. He used his powers well, and i'm glad he decided to help, or else he'd have come off as a total ass.

I loved the ending. Flash's speech to J'onn was perfect, and J'onn wanting to play that game was really cute. "I wanted the green one". Gotta love it. What a great ending.

Okay, now what i didnt like:

I thought Barda was indistiguisable from WW. Sorry, she was a total WW clone.

Mr. Miracle, i also thought was alittle 2-d. Infact, I didnt like both Barda or MM's development in this episode, especially compared to BC and WC's last week. They were just flat, dull, and nothing special. I would have liked it if they developed his whole 'escape artist' angle alittle more, instead of just in the opening. I personally had no real knowledge of MM up till this ep, and i didnt feel like it was a very good intro to him. I didnt get what his powers were, i wasnt buying him and Barda as 'show folk', i just felt they could have been developed better.

The bad guy: Oh GOD, what the hell was that???? He was SO CORNY!!! This type of campy, giggly, cliche, hitler-esque, 'super' villian really doesnt fit JLU's style. He was so freaking corny. I couldnt believe it. "The only way to stop them is to BLOW UP the entire compound". :sad: god, i NEVER want to see this lame-ass guy again. give me a break. After great villians like Chronos and Roulette, we get this corn-ball. :shrug:

The plot was weak, i thought. All the stuff in the compound was corny and boring. I definately got alittle bored during this episode.

The big 'swiss army knife of death' was also corny.

Here's what i would have done: I'd have made them rescue Oberon after the first battle, and dedicate the rest of the episode to the heros vs. Granny Goodness and the Female Furies. I SO wanted the FF to appear, but oh well. Instead we get that corny hitler goof-ball. :sad:

Overall, though, i did enjoy this episode. The Flash made the ep, imo, as well as the Watchtower scenes, and J'onn as well. Its too bad all the stuff w/ Barda and MM, and the whole part in the 'compound' wasnt nearly as interesting. But overall, the format and pacing was a lot better than usual, but then again the villian was more campy and chessy than usual, so its got its highs and its got its lows. peace.

[Squall]

Here's what i would have done: I'd have made them rescue Oberon after the first battle, and dedicate the rest of the episode to the heros vs. Granny Goodness and the Female Furies. I SO wanted the FF to appear, but oh well...
That's an awesome idea! :eek: :cool: I actually like your idea better than the episode as it was! Imagine the jokes Flash could make while fighting the Female Furies! :p

[b.t.]

Why does the Screen Actor's Guild have stupid rules like that? What purpose are rules like that supposed to serve?

what's "stupid" about it? seems perfectly reasonable to me....

if we could only get one voice per actor, the cost of doing animation here in the states would be even more expensive than it is now (and there'd be even more "runaway" productions getting all their voice work done in canada)....if we could get MORE than three voices per actor (as apparently was the case years ago), s.a.g. feels that the production would be taking unfair advantage of the actors...

[DLM]

1. Why isn't Orion taking advantage of Darkseid's disappearance? I mean, the treaty was between Darkseid & Highfather. W/ Darkseid gone, there's no reason for Orion not to launch an invasion or something.

Orion wouldnt even CARE that much about the fate of Apokolypse if Darkseid isn't there.



The bad guy: Oh GOD, what the hell was that???? He was SO CORNY!!!
Yeah, you have to just accept it as part of the Kirby world and "embrace the cheese" as a previous poster pointed out. Personally, I thought Vunderbar was kinda fun.


The plot was weak, i thought. All the stuff in the compound was corny and boring. I definately got alittle bored during this episode.
NOOOO.. I thoroughly disagree. It certainly wasn't any thinner than last week.

[Squall]

what's "stupid" about it? seems perfectly reasonable to me....

if we could only get one voice per actor, the cost of doing animation here in the states would be even more expensive than it is now (and there'd be even more "runaway" productions getting all their voice work done in canada)....if we could get MORE than three voices per actor (as apparently was the case years ago), s.a.g. feels that the production would be taking unfair advantage of the actors...
Maybe I'm thinking about this an an engineer, and not an artist. I just don't understand why there would be any restrictions at all on how many actors a company can hire for episode x of TV show y -- can't the actors decide if they're being taken advantage of? Can't the producers decide if the cost of z actors is worth it? I never meant to imply that that a restriction of one voice per actor should be implemented -- quite the opposite, in fact. I just found the limit of three voices per actor to be a very strange rule. :confused:

P.S. -- Bruce Timm himself is replying to my posts on multiple threads! I can go to work tomorrow and brag about this! :p :sweat:

[I-Am That Is]

Orion wouldnt even CARE that much about the fate of Apokolypse if Darkseid isn't there.I'm not so sure about that. He hates Darkseid, yeah, but he also loves New Genesis, & I just don't understand why he wasn't taking any steps to ensure that Apokolips is removed as a potential threat to his adopted home forever.


I figure that their mission would be even more controversial with the New Gods than with the JL.Eh? How so?


You have excellent questions! I think I have a possible answer for the third question though -- maybe Big Barda & Mr. Miracle don't yet have a strong attachment to Earth, in animated continuity (which is totally seperate from the comics, as I'm sure you already know).Oberon's from Earth.

[Teo]

Did Flash really stick it to the bureaucracy? J'onn had a legit reason for not going into Apoklips although I will admit that I didn't completely agree with his decision however he did have some strong points.

J'onn' s main concern was about helping a new power come into affect on Apokalips by assisting Mr. Miracle in helping Granny Goodness achieve her goal. The League doesn't want to do that. They don't want to help the forces of Apokalips become organized for the possible threat of them striking out at other planets. They say the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few sometimes and J'onn felt it best for the League to remain neutral even though it might cost someone (Oberon) their life.

I think J'onn would have really tried more and would have if it had been someone else. Does anyone think J'onn have made this same decision if it had been a member of the League being held captive? I think not. The League would have went in 10 or 20 strong if necessary or would have atleast played along until they found their imprisoned comrade. The only thing I fault J'onn for is not even attempting to come up with a reasonable plan to try and helpMr. Miracle.

As far as Flash I think he did earn some respect from J'onn. He went against orders and boldly told him he would do it again under the right circumstances. But was Flash completely right in doing what HE did? If things had played out the way Granny wanted them to I would say "no" because she would have had Kalibak and possibly control of Apoklips. Possibly allowing the planet to become a threat to others just as J'onn theorized could happen.

So I think everyone had a legitimate angle to this dilema fortunately things worked out for all the good guys. They get J'onn to step in. He reads Granny's mind, they rescue Oberon and they take the recently rescued Kalibak and imprison him on Earth. A Happy ending for most I would say. .It turned out well in the end for sure, but even Flash took care of that too(he knew not to trust Granny). It's just with JLU becoming so much more regimented, I'm glad it was the Flash who really broke ranks and showed he could still act autonomously. I don't love the JLU hierarchy angle that's developed so it's nice to see someone break it down a bit. It was a good way to characterize him because he doesn't seem to be at the top rank like the other originals but he doesn't really have to answer to them like anyone else might. In the sense that he acted without JL sanction and even in defiance of the JL, (not to mention handling the mission from start to finish and even coming up with a backup plan) I like to think he stuck it to them.

[Supremus]

It turned out well in the end for sure, but even Flash took care of that too(he knew not to trust Granny). It's just with JLU becoming so much more regimented, I'm glad it was the Flash who really broke ranks and showed he could still act autonomously. I don't love the JLU hierarchy angle that's developed so it's nice to see someone break it down a bit. It was a good way to characterize him because he doesn't seem to be at the top rank like the other originals but he doesn't really have to answer to them like anyone else might. In the sense that he acted without JL sanction and even in defiance of the JL, (not to mention handling the mission from start to finish and even coming up with a backup plan) I like to think he stuck it to them.Discipline seems to be an issue this season on JLU. We are 2 for 2 when it comes to episodes where members engage in "unsanctioned" activities.

[KefkaFloyd]

Maybe I'm thinking about this an an engineer, and not an artist. I just don't understand why there would be any restrictions at all on how many actors a company can hire for episode x of TV show y -- can't the actors decide if they're being taken advantage of? Can't the producers decide if the cost of z actors is worth it? I never meant to imply that that a restriction of one voice per actor should be implemented -- quite the opposite, in fact. I just found the limit of three voices per actor to be a very strange rule. :confused:

P.S. -- Bruce Timm himself is replying to my posts on multiple threads! I can go to work tomorrow and brag about this! :p :sweat:
When you're a member of a union, you need to abide by the rules. Kinda funny how that is.

[Teo]

Discipline seems to be an issue this season on JLU. We are 2 for 2 when it comes to episodes where members engage in "unsanctioned" activities.Yeah, it's a direction I like. I rather hope that whatever catastophe happens to end season 2 breaks the league up some. Just enough to make them a slightly smaller scale and more mysterious (and organized less like Star Trek).


Eh? How so?I'm not best educated, but I always thought the New Gods seemed a little stodgy and inflexible. Maybe they're happy with the civil wars and what not and freeing Kalibak wouldn't be an appealing idea. Or maybe they just figured Superman would do it no matter the circumstances. Honestly though, I'm not so sure why J'onn was so opposed. Had they just done what they did at the end at the begining (Have J'onn pose as Barda for instance), they could have accomplished everything right up front--except of course the setup of the inevitable invasion of Earth by Darkseid when he comes looking for his son. Plus, it was a wicked cool Flash episode, so whatever anyone's reasons were, it turned out for the best.

[RAINMAN]

It turned out well in the end for sure, but even Flash took care of that too(he knew not to trust Granny). It's just with JLU becoming so much more regimented, I'm glad it was the Flash who really broke ranks and showed he could still act autonomously. I don't love the JLU hierarchy angle that's developed so it's nice to see someone break it down a bit. It was a good way to characterize him because he doesn't seem to be at the top rank like the other originals but he doesn't really have to answer to them like anyone else might. In the sense that he acted without JL sanction and even in defiance of the JL, (not to mention handling the mission from start to finish and even coming up with a backup plan) I like to think he stuck it to them.


Another good reason why it was a good eps. The founders fell like they can do whatever they want,and it time someone put them in their place. I also would not be surprise if jonzz feels the same way as flash does.

[DLM]

I think what he's trying to express is that Flash took the initiative. He is one of the 7 greatest heros on planet earth and he made a decision, followed through on it on his own recognizance and ended up with a victory. Good for Wally!!

[Knight]

Questions I've thought of, all revolving around Orion:

1. Why isn't Orion taking advantage of Darkseid's disappearance? I mean, the treaty was between Darkseid & Highfather. W/ Darkseid gone, there's no reason for Orion not to launch an invasion or something.The treaty was between two worlds not two people and just because the dictator of a former waring country is now possibly dead doesnt give any outside nation the right to launch a invasion.

The peace treaty between New Genisis and Apokalips is still in affect and should be honored until someone decides they want to break it. Orion suddenly launching a attack against the planet would be concidered a Act of War.




Another good reason why it was a good eps. The founders fell like they can do whatever they want,and it time someone put them in their place. .Im not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying The Flash put The League in its place by basically going off and doing whatever he wanted? If he is doing the same thing as them how is that putting them in their place? Its more of a "if you can do it I can too situation going by that.

[Alex Weitzman]

Maybe I'm thinking about this an an engineer, and not an artist. I just don't understand why there would be any restrictions at all on how many actors a company can hire for episode x of TV show y -- can't the actors decide if they're being taken advantage of? Can't the producers decide if the cost of z actors is worth it? I never meant to imply that that a restriction of one voice per actor should be implemented -- quite the opposite, in fact. I just found the limit of three voices per actor to be a very strange rule. :confused:
Effectively, what SAG means when it stresses the "three voices per actor" rule is that you can use that voice actor for up to three voices without being forced to pay them extra cash. SAG isn't against the idea of using a single voice actor for more roles than that, but as a union protection, they insist on a boost to the salary for such extended work. Three, the magic number, was agreed upon as a fair amount to ask of voice actors without asking them to do too much for a single fee.

From a money-saving perspective, it would be a real stretch to bring in Michael Dorn for a few lines in The Return and not take advantage of Phil LaMarr having an extra role he can take on by SAG rules. That's a fixed fee that you'd have to pay Dorn, in addition to still having to pay Phil the same amount. It's not a matter of unfairness on the union's part. It's just that The Return managed to include Fate, Shayera, Rayner, Amazo, Luthor, Atom, Supergirl, Steel, Stewart, and so forth. How much cash can they really spend on actors for a single episode, especially since some of these folks only say one or two lines?

[efumf]

That's a fair rule.

I wonder if they have the same rule for live action actors? Like when Boreanaz plays Angel and Angelus in the same episode, or when Amanda Tapping plays Sam and Evil Sam on Stargate? :p

Did we even find out who voiced Hal? Was is Adam Baldwin?

[Victor Shade]

But for the life of me I don't understand why people take matt wilson seriously, he's just a cartoon viewer just like the rest of us.:shrug:

[efumf]

I don't think anyone does take him seriously :p

[Gillespee]

I finally saw the episode and I absolutely loved it. Barda! Mr. Miracle! Flash! It was all just very well done. I liked how they tackled a small problem in a small group. All around good fun.

[Justice League 2000]

Yes the return of Flash and Big Barda and Granny Goodness too :) This episode Kick Butt. Glad to see Mr. Miracle.

[Doomsday]

I actually like watching thing the second time more than the first. I guess I know whats coming up the second time. A villian who makes Superfriends look serious. It's funny because I didn't see it coming but I think it made Apokolips a joke, and it is going to be tough for them to fix that. I hope Darkseid comes back ands Kills the German guy because that 007 villian/Superfriends villian has no right to be an villian on Apokolips and able to take control of it as well. He needs to become a slave or just die, worst villian ever. I thought they were not going to make a comedy episode this season, not saying it isn't bad, I just like serious better for JLU. Animation was mostly awful, but the Flash made up for that. Him, EM, and J'ohn had some great lines in this episode. Music was alright, nothing special. I didn't mind them not telling how Mr. Miracle got out of the trap at the beginning, but the last trap he got out of I would like a flashback, they were already showing them of his early past so why can't they show one like 2 minutes earlier. Well the episode would be a 2.5 for me but with Flash being in got to add 1 and J'ohn getting out the watchtower gets a .5. 4 stars, not really that great but can be better. Flash hopefully be put in a more serious. Now next week looks awesome, yey Doomsday.

[Animelee]

A nice, hilarious episode that let us see some of the neglected characters like Flash and Martian Manhunter after a while. :) Bert... Barda and Mister Miracle were interesting characters too, and I was glad we got to see Mister Miracle's past -- just wish we could learn more about Granny and her motives, though. The animation was a little generic and repetitive in some of the action scenes, but other than that, it was a great episode. :)

[Jack Frenzy]

Comics spoiler so I peeked. Could someone give me a run-down on the Anti-Life Equation in DC Comics? I know people have said that even Jack Kirby didn't know exactly what is was but I could've swore I heard on this board that it was the power to get people to do exactly what you say and that's why Darkseid wanted it so bad. I remember reading that it was possessed by a samurai in the DC universe a while back who was a good guy and a gangster in the modern age. How does Mr. Miracle possess it in the comics? Is it the same deal with him? If he does possess it why didn't he just order Granny to give back Oberon on the show? Wow, someone remembered my old post on the Anti-Life Equation. I'm flattered.

For reference, here it is: 1558375.

As for your new questions:

In the final issue of the excellent Orion series (not by Kirby), Orion discovers that Scott Free possesses the Anti-Life Equation.

Scott confides in him that once when he was sneaking out of Granny's orphanage, he came upon some guards beating Hunger Dogs (poor class of Apokolips). Horrified, he yelled out, "STOP!" and everyone within earshot died. He realized that he possessed the Equation and swore never to use it again. Since then, it's been his dark secret, even from Barda.

Orion suspects that Scott may possess the equation because he's the New God who believes most strongly in personal freedom. He would never intentionally use it, and so is its natural keeper.

[Knight]

I know I criticized Bard when I first watched this ep but after several viewings she has grown on me and now I actually like her. I picked up other sides of her and noticed that even though she wants to beat up people she does have a more tender and caring side that I never paid attention too the first time around. She is extremely loyal to her friends and those that fight by her side. Her concern for Flash when she thought he had been hurt and her hugging Oberon were reflections of that. I know I like her appearance her more so than "The Call" now want to see her again now.

[Salvor]

sigh why do I always happen to like the episodes that everyone else seems to hate? I, for one, kindda liked this one. Granted the plot was predictable. Granted the villain embodied LAMENESS. And yeah, the animation was a bit flat. YET it was a nice little New Gods tie-in, with some cool characterization for Scott, Barda and Kalibak, some nice action scenes, especially the first time Flash, MM and BB charge, some cool Flash lines, some cool backgrounds... JLU has definately become a decent show, which is WAY more than I can say for the original JL series...

[efumf]

I wouldn't say everyone else hates this episode, just the usual naysayers who hate everything and feel the need to tell us about it week after week. The poll results show it's pretty much a 4/5 episode.

I love Kirby's DC world (easily the best thing about STAS), and hope they show us more of it soon. The only issue I (and most everyone else) can put forward is the lack of any explanation as to how Scott (and later Flash) got out of all those traps - That was pretty cheap.

Wish JMD would chime in with his reasons for that - I'm familiar enough with his writing to know it wasn't just laziness. :confused:

[Fone Bone]

Wow, someone remembered my old post on the Anti-Life Equation. I'm flattered.

For reference, here it is: 1558375.

As for your new questions:

In the final issue of the excellent Orion series (not by Kirby), Orion discovers that Scott Free possesses the Anti-Life Equation.

Scott confides in him that once when he was sneaking out of Granny's orphanage, he came upon some guards beating Hunger Dogs (poor class of Apokolips). Horrified, he yelled out, "STOP!" and everyone within earshot died. He realized that he possessed the Equation and swore never to use it again. Since then, it's been his dark secret, even from Barda.

Orion suspects that Scott may possess the equation because he's the New God who believes most strongly in personal freedom. He would never intentionally use it, and so is its natural keeper.Wow. Fascinating stuff. Comics So are these the only three people in the DCU to have the Anti-Life equation? Or have others more recently surfaced? Did they ever resolve the fact the Mr. Miracle had it? Do you think he will ever tell Big Barda?

sigh why do I always happen to like the episodes that everyone else seems to hate? I, for one, kindda liked this one. Granted the plot was predictable. Granted the villain embodied LAMENESS. And yeah, the animation was a bit flat. YET it was a nice little New Gods tie-in, with some cool characterization for Scott, Barda and Kalibak, some nice action scenes, especially the first time Flash, MM and BB charge, some cool Flash lines, some cool backgrounds... JLU has definately become a decent show, which is WAY more than I can say for the original JL series...Actually this is the first Justice League episode since Starcrossed to not have any votes in the lowest rating option. It got one SECOND Lowest option (1/2) but that's not bad for JLU.

[Captain Clown]

For whatever reason there hasn't really been much of a negative response the past two weeks, at least as far as I've noticed. I thought this was one of the weakest JLUs so far, but I'm not exactly a "usual naysayer".

[efumf]

No, but you're hardly representative of the majority. Not even close.

[Victor Shade]

I think that the creators are attempting to show us that the DCU has more to offer than just the usual heros. I honestly was never a fan of wildcat, black canary, barda, or mr m. but this show has made these guys halfway decent. It's kinda refreshing that we see how the other side lives, only one problem though....the shows are about 30 minutes too short!:sweat:

[Jack Frenzy]

[QUOTE=Fone Bone]Wow. Fascinating stuff. Comics So are these the only three people in the DCU to have the Anti-Life equation? Or have others more recently surfaced? Did they ever resolve the fact the Mr. Miracle had it? Do you think he will ever tell Big Barda?

Many people (mostly regular humans) have been identified as having fragments of the Anti-Life Equation, but as for the complete Equation...

The only other one I can think of is Orion. His series of a couple years back was basically the saga of how he gained possession of it, abused it, relinquished it, and eventually redeemed himself.

It was Orion's past possession of the Equation that allowed him to percieve Scott had it. Scott told him his story, both to unburden himself and to give Orion some helpful advice.

Orion was grateful and helped him out when the amoral New God scientist Metron tried to blackmail Scott into giving him the Equation. Orion also convinced him to share his secret with Barda.

[DerekPowers]

Does anyone remember if Barda and Mr. Miracle were in the hero's pan in "Initiation"? I found it strange that they were not yet part of the League, and didnt join it at the end.

Can someone give me some background info on Barda. Please, dont just paste her discription from the Bios section of this website. I already read it. I want to know more about her powers, how she got them, and if she's immortal. In "The Call", she didnt seem to age at all. And if she simply ages slower, she even aged a lot slower than superman.

Also, what exactly are MM's powers? I know he's an escape artist, but does that involve a greater power?

thanks yall.

peace.

[Casey Mack]

Does anyone remember if Barda and Mr. Miracle were in the hero's pan in "Initiation"? I found it strange that they were not yet part of the League, and didnt join it at the end.

Can someone give me some background info on Barda. Please, dont just paste her discription from the Bios section of this website. I already read it. I want to know more about her powers, how she got them, and if she's immortal. In "The Call", she didnt seem to age at all. And if she simply ages slower, she even aged a lot slower than superman.

Also, what exactly are MM's powers? I know he's an escape artist, but does that involve a greater power?

thanks yall.

peace.

Well if you read the Superman animated series bio on Barda, then you know all you need to know Mr.Powers. Barda was a fury for Darksied, but with the help of Scott free[Mr. Miracle] she rebelled against granny and Darkseid. Barda is not a "NEW GOD" but she ages very slow. oh and Mr.Miracle has no powers per say. Scott uses his mind and tricks to escape any impossible situations. Hey maybe someone has more basic facts about them.
________
Cheap Crosman Super Point Caliber Pellets (http://airsoft-shop.info/p/crosman-super-point-caliber-pellets/)

[Toddman]

Does anyone remember if Barda and Mr. Miracle were in the hero's pan in "Initiation"? I found it strange that they were not yet part of the League, and didnt join it at the end.

Mr. Miracle and Barda were not in any of the shots during "Initiation." On a similar note, I thought for sure that Lightray would have made it onto the team.

I think there were only 55 seperate characters that could be positively identified. It looks like there was a bigger number in the first wide shot after the intro, but some of the characters were doubled up (just to fill up space, I guess).

Toddman

[Thorn]

Coming in late to the party. It was an okay one, though the stiffness of the animation was distracting. I kinda spaced out during the action sequences, which isn't something I do normally. I wasn't really feeling the Scott Free flashbacks either, but I'm not sure why. I however, like the dialogue very much. So good to see and hear Flash, Elongated Man, and Granny Goodness again. Oh Jeremy Piven, I heart him so. And Ed Asner's Granny still creeps me out after all this time. I love that J'onn made a funny at the end. He should do that more. Think it's sugar from the Oreos cheering him up?

[DLM]

I don't think anyone does take him seriously :pI sometimes take him seriously, because sometimes he has very valid points to make, and sometime has good arguments even when I don't agree with them. But comments like this will just feed his persecution complex.

[Victor Shade]

I don't get him.:sad:

[Fone Bone]

[QUOTE=Fone Bone]Wow. Fascinating stuff. Comics So are these the only three people in the DCU to have the Anti-Life equation? Or have others more recently surfaced? Did they ever resolve the fact the Mr. Miracle had it? Do you think he will ever tell Big Barda?

Many people (mostly regular humans) have been identified as having fragments of the Anti-Life Equation, but as for the complete Equation...

The only other one I can think of is Orion. His series of a couple years back was basically the saga of how he gained possession of it, abused it, relinquished it, and eventually redeemed himself.

It was Orion's past possession of the Equation that allowed him to percieve Scott had it. Scott told him his story, both to unburden himself and to give Orion some helpful advice.

Orion was grateful and helped him out when the amoral New God scientist Metron tried to blackmail Scott into giving him the Equation. Orion also convinced him to share his secret with Barda.Wow, that's just great. Thank you so much. It will make me enjoy the episode even more when I rewatch it.

[Krypton_Knight]

All in all, an average, unremarkable episode, largely redeemed by anothe rnifty performance by Ed Asner as that creepiest of all Superman/Fourth World villains, Granny Goodness.

Okay what the heck happened to Kanto? Surely Apocalips can do better for an interim leader than a second rate Major Hochstetter clone.

Nice to see Flash again. I'm surprised the League's relegated Wally to the second tier.

KK

[Brainiac]

Wow. I was wholly disappointed in this episode for the most part.

The Good
-FLASH RETURNS! HUZZAH! I was very happy to see him again.
-Granny Goodness and her creepy Ed Asner voice!
-Allusions to Darkseid's disappearance
-An active Martian Manhunter

The Bad
-Barda...can somebody say Wonder-Clone? And her voice acting was pretty terrible.
-Mr. Miracle...was okay. I guess he wasn't bad. But...again, the VO was just a bit off.
-Speaking of off, what happened to J'onn's voice? He sounded like a different voice actor. But it was credited as Lumbly. Was he sick?
-Storyline was a bit boring.
-Virman Vunderbar...was comic relief? Was a lame villain? Was...annoying like no other?

The Ugly
-The animation seemed off to me. I could be alone in this.
-Mr. Miracle's costume. Yeesh. Poor guy.

**1/2 stars...but it's been awhile since I've disliked an episode.

-Brainiac

[StClair]

Everything else has been said already, but I just wanted to mention how tickled I was by J'onn using the "don't think of a zebra" trick.

[Knight]

Everything else has been said already, but I just wanted to mention how tickled I was by J'onn using the "don't think of a zebra" trick.
Yeah, J'onn telling her not to think about it most likely made her think about it making it a easier mind read. That J'onn's a smart guy.

[Fone Bone]

Everything else has been said already, but I just wanted to mention how tickled I was by J'onn using the "don't think of a zebra" trick.That WAS pretty awesome.:D

[StClair]

Yeah, J'onn telling her not to think about it most likely made her think about it making it a easier mind read. That J'onn's a smart guy.Well, it's a classic example in psychology (as well as a telepathic interrogation technique). You DID think of a zebra when you read my post, right?

[D4rkn1ght]

This episode didn't do anything for me with exception Flash. I think the direction was too cliche. The way the villain was acting was horrible.

I was expecting GL to be with Flash in this episode. Those two are great together! ;)

This only gets three stars because of Flash. One if it were without him.

[maxnugget]

I actually kinda feel bad for Granny. She's all alone up there on Apokolips, left to face Virman Vunderbar all by herself, not to mention being further bullied by the mega-powerful League, whom she doesn't stand a chance again.

When Darkseid was around, he was their protector (Granny and everyone else on Apokolips). Sure, you had to fear Darkseid, but he protected you from the cruelty of everyone else (the League, New Genesis, Virmin Vunderbar, Brainiac). Darkseid was like the bully that protected them from other bullies.

And even Kalibak's been taken away from her. Desaad's dead (or vanished).

She tries to reach for a tiny crumb of power and protection (Kalibak) and the League proceeds to put the beatdown on her. And then she gets sucker-punched by Barda! Have you no heart, b.t.?????

the Apokoliptian Empire has crumbled...

...and poor Granny is left to fend for herself in a harsh, cruel DCAU world. :(

[Fone Bone]

Considering what Granny put Superman through in Legacy and Scott Free in this episode I don't feel the least bit bad for her.

I WILL admit to some sympathy for Kalibak. Dude couldn't even get a piece of cake.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

Does Kalibak have a brother? He could run the Apokolips. :p

[I-Am That Is]

Does Kalibak have a brother? He could run the Apokolips. :pHmm, you know, they might bring in Grayven, but I doubt it.

We already discussed Orion.

[GF2814]

the only reason we didn't have michael back as steel was purely budgetary...we have a ceiling on how many actors we can use per episode, and maxed-out on "the return".......with episodes that require extra-large casts, we're often forced to have our actors play multiple parts (s.a.g. rules allow us to have each actor voice up to three different characters per episode)...just one of the many reasons why people like phil lamar and jennifer hale are worth their weight in gold...
Gotcha! That explains alot of things I've wondered about in terms of VA's and recasting. No point in bringing in a VA for 1 line, such as many of the villians in Hereafter, I do have to admit I was disappointed to not here Malcolm McDowel and Lori Petti. Phil Lamar is great though, I never knew he did Static AND GL they sound SO different and I'm pretty decent at picking out VA's.

[Merlin Missy]

Someone please explain how I missed Big Barda referring to Granny Goodness (aka Ed "Hudson of Clan Wyvern" Asner) as an "old gargoyle?" 'Cause that's awfully funny if you're me.

And why didn't Barda and Scott ask Orion for help when they approached the League? You'd think he might have a stake in this.

Shutting up now.

MM:)

[Yojimbo]

Someone please explain how I missed Big Barda referring to Granny Goodness (aka Ed "Hudson of Clan Wyvern" Asner) as an "old gargoyle?" 'Cause that's awfully funny if you're me.

And why didn't Barda and Scott ask Orion for help when they approached the League? You'd think he might have a stake in this.

Shutting up now.

MM:)
Good question, Orion 'disappeared' from jlu appearances since "the return".

[Toddman]

Good question, Orion 'disappeared' from jlu appearances since "the return".
Having Orion help out might have brought up some kind of Apokolips/New Genesis treaty violation. And given Superman's success of invading Apokolips, they may have felt like he was the safer choice.

Toddman

[Fone Bone]

Someone please explain how I missed Big Barda referring to Granny Goodness (aka Ed "Hudson of Clan Wyvern" Asner) as an "old gargoyle?" 'Cause that's awfully funny if you're me.

And why didn't Barda and Scott ask Orion for help when they approached the League? You'd think he might have a stake in this.

Shutting up now.

MM:)Old gargoyle! Ha! Can't believe I missed that!

I love you Merlin Missy!

[Manhunter]

I WILL admit to some sympathy for Kalibak. Dude couldn't even get a piece of cake.
But he did get to go to town on Vundabar's robots, which is refreshing considering the number of times I saw him get owned on STAS.

[Fone Bone]

But he did get to go to town on Vundabar's robots, which is refreshing considering the number of times I saw him get owned on STAS.Don't forget JL's Hereafter. Lobo made his say uncle and Superman told him BATMAN could have defeated him. Ouch.

[MilkManX]

Just saw this episode last night. Great. I loved it. I am a huge Kirby fan though and I love when BT and crew give the fanservice to fourthworld.

Flash was great and seeing Mr Miracle and Barda was awesome.

So far this is in my top 5 JL/JLU episodes.

[Crow]

Now after all this time I've seen this, I have to say yes I'm in the boat with the people more happy to see Flash than Scott Free.

The main story was pretty good but I agree with the early posts that seeing as how we don't know how he escaped, we are cheated out of a few things.

Vunderbar was okay, considering the context of everything in the episode. This was my first taste of the DCAU Granny Goodness as well. And I like her.

J'onn in this episode was too cool, as I knew he would be!

[ShadowStar]

Where did the beginning of this episode take place? New Genesis or Earth? Just curious...

[Neo Ultra Mike]

New Genesis since Mr. Miracle and Big Barbara wouldn't be praticing on earth for no reasons since it's not they're planet. Also thinking about since most of the action is on Apokalipis and we only get scenes otherwise in New Genesis/Watchtower, I don't think any of this episode actually takes place on earth truthfully.

[Yojimbo]

New Genesis since Mr. Miracle and Big Barbara wouldn't be praticing on earth for no reasons since it's not they're planet. Also thinking about since most of the action is on Apokalipis and we only get scenes otherwise in New Genesis/Watchtower, I don't think any of this episode actually takes place on earth truthfully.

I disagree. Historically, when Scott Free originally escaped Apokolips, he ended up on Earth and met a performing escape artist named Mr. Miracle named Thaddeus Brown and his manager, Oberon (who is kidnapped in this episode). Brown is murdered and Free hunts down his murderers as Mr. Miracle. Ever since then, he and Barda return to Earth every now and then to practice stunts with Oberon, a close friend.

[Wonderwall]

Also, I dont think New Genesis has trains.

[ShadowStar]

One thing really irks me about this episode: the X-Pit is destroyed, thus killing hundreds of prisoners trapped inside... and the League don't even bat an eyelid. Don't tell me Kalibak was the only living prisoner in there...

[Bobbywoodhogan]

This episode was superb, it was so great seeing Dr Miracle and Big Barda. The plot was brilliant and the Flash added the right amount of comic relief. 4.5 out of 5

[Yojimbo]

This episode was superb, it was so great seeing Dr Miracle and Big Barda. The plot was brilliant and the Flash added the right amount of comic relief. 4.5 out of 5Mr. Miracle. He's only a master of escapology. Still working on the doctorate. ;)

[Bobbywoodhogan]

Mr. Miracle. He's only a master of escapology. Still working on the doctorate. ;)

Ha ha I didnt realise I'd put that :D