Are all the "fan moments" ruining JLU? [Archive]

Drizzt2218

02-03-2005, 04:57 PM

I'm not sure how many here will remember me. I used to post under the name "Larry" a long time ago, both on the old WB Board and way back when this board first started. I even remember the circumstances under which James first created this board. I re-registered awhile ago, but with most of the old guard gone, I haven't been too inspired to get back into posting. However, for the first time in a long time, I finally feel like I have something to say.

Let me start by stating that I am nothing if not a die-hard fan of these shows. I grew up on B:TAS...these are the creators who inspired me to base my career off them, and become a writer, with an eye towards animation. It's easy to tear stuff down, but that's not my intent here. My intent is to be constructive, and politely raise my issues with the direction the "Timmverse" such as it were, has taken.

In the introduction to the screenplay for "Return of the Joker," Paul Dini began by writing this:

"When producers Alan Burnett, Glen Murakami, Bruce Timm and I began developing Batman Beyond in early 1998, we made a conscious decision to downplay much of the lore established in our first animated Batman series. It would have been easy to craft Beyond completely around elements from Bruce Wayne's life, which had resurfaced to confront his young pupil Terry McGinnis, nearly forty years later. After all, who wouldn't want to see our new Uncaped Crusader lock horns with the youthful clone of Catwoman or match wits with a supercomputer programmed by the original Riddler? The notion of going that route for fifty-two episodes was very tempting, which was all the more reason not to do it."

I can't help but feel this sort of edict has been abandoned in JLU. There's no doubt, with apologies for singling him out, fans like GMahler wouldn't have been thrilled by seeing the Son of Man-Bat; but the creators wisely recognized that such fan servicing would detract from the series, and avoided it. The same can be said for B:TAS and S:TAS as well, which focused on simplifying the broad histories of its characters, crafting great stories that could be enjoyed by anyone. It seems like JLU has forgotten what made these shows so magical to begin with.

Though "The Once and Future Thing" is what set this post in motion, my feeling of discontent really started back with "Hawk & Dove," and continued through episodes like "The Greatest Story Never Told." A huge team is an interesting idea in concept, but has basically served to only give fans a moment where they can go "Oh my god! They used Dr. Light 2!" These characters have added nothing to the stories, and in certain cases, having to suspend our disbelief that they wouldn't be called in to help in a situation has hampered the story. Few of them have had any speaking roles, fewer of them personality traits that couldn't be substituted for the established 7 members of the League.

An episode like "Dark Heart" becomes distracting for the non-fanboy viewers when all these characters are around and we aren't so much as given a name for any of them. Who's the guy on the winged horse? How does a cowboy with a six shooter contribute anything to this conflict? If one looks at the show and tries to see it from the perspective of someone not immersed in DC lore, it falls apart as a confusing mess most of the time. A couple episodes have handled the "fan stuff," well, in particular "Ultimatum" and "Wake The Dead." "For The Man Who Has Everything" was absolutely brilliant.

But "The Greatest Story Never Told" was one of the worst things they've ever put to screen. Booster Gold's personality is nearly the same as The Flash's, except that he's a "new" character with no history, no viewer recognition, and frankly, comes off as an annoyingly horny jerk the entire episode. This would be fine if he learned a lesson at the end--but he doesn't. He gets a happy ending, with no character growth. And then he's never seen again in another episode.

I won't even discuss how crude it was to have a scene where Wonder Woman sticks Atom in-between her boobs, or the gratuitous cleavage shots which result. Maybe funny for most male fans, but from the 8-year-old little girl watching the episode with me, all it did was make her say "eewww" and recognize it, perhaps not as being sexist, but even for her it struck her as being downright wrong. I watch JLU with an 8 year old girl, a 4 year old boy, and a 3 year old boy. All of them enjoy Justice League, and the little kids love the dvd sets for B:TAS and S:TAS. The 4 year old watches all my old tapes of Batman Beyond, and cites Terry as being his favorite character. Lately, all of them have been tuning out of JLU, calling it "boring." If the shows are aimed in the very least at capturing the attention of small children, I can say it's failing miserably compared to Teen Titans. And the thing is, it SHOULDN'T be failing. There is no reason for this, and I don't think any of us would want this show to fail. But all the fan servicing is killing the series.

Which brings us to "The Once and Future Thing," arguably the biggest disappointment to come out of these brilliant creators. The story is a mess. It's all over the place. The first half begins with Chronos as the villain, but quickly shuffles him aside for a completely pointless western romp. The western heroes introduced have little personality besides an occasional one-liner, and Jonah Hex is completely wasted. Why do we care about the Native American sheriff and his conflict at the end? We don't. We have no attachment to him. Why are there robot dinosaurs instead of real dinosaurs? Why does the villain have a winged horse at the end? It's mindless, and the story falls apart under any kind of scrutiny. The creators have peppered the series with flirting between Batman and Wonder Woman as well, but with no payoff, that too is distracting in the teaser. And then we have Part Two.

Terry McGuiness had 52 episodes and a DTV. This is more than S:TAS ever got. We haven't seen his character in a while. Fans have long wondered what would happen between a meeting between him and the original Batman in his prime. A time travel story that goes into the BB timeline is SPECIFICALLY tailored to the Batman mythology, or else there'd be no reason to go into this future at all. And yet the first thing that happens is a subplot between Green Lantern and Warhawk that doesn't go anywhere besides a couple one-liners, a villain who has suddenly grown crazy and insanely powerful with no explaination, and a gang of Jokerz that have somehow become powerful enough to destroy the entire League, with vaguely defined powers at best. The story tries to be a lot of things, working in a lot of directions, and yet it fails them all. Static is there, but even he doesn't get a good send-off. Terry is wasted. Worse, we don't even see Batman's reaction--if he even has one--to finding out he has a protege in the future. Batman--a detective--shows no interest in how things turned out. Terry shows no interest in seeing his mentor in his prime; and worse, besides being relegated to a few lines of dialogue, he spends most of the episode being beaten senselessly before he is needlessly killed at the end, and brought back off-screen after everything is fixed. The story even avoids so much as naming BB as the future of the DCU, by casting doubt over this future due to Batman and John "remembering" what happened. In short, a story that should have brought about some massive character development or at least had a real point to it, becomes another mindless romp with no sense of consequence. When time falls apart at the end, it seems like a way to wrap up the story, not a natural conclusion. Batman's cruel actions at the end are treated like a joke, and not a horrible way to dispose of the villain. And Hal Jordan's cameo is both pointless and confusing. Who is he? Why is he there? Worse, if John is gone, why is Warhawk still there? It detracts from the story, not enhances it.

A lot of us are Joss Whedon fans. So let's go with this hypothetical. Imagine in a year or two, a new spin-off is launched. And the series does an episode where Buffy and the gang travel into the past, because Ethan Rayne is trying to kill Angel right after he's been ensouled. We haven't seen the Angel character in a long time, and this story is specifically tailored to him. But instead, the first thing that happens is Buffy learns she is descended from Darla! Then we focus on Ethan some, as he recruits the vampires to help him stop the Scoobies, and empowers them with new magical abilities. Then we focus on the Scoobies misadventures in time, and a lot of pointless fighting. Angel spends the entire episode getting his butt kicked, before he's actually dusted! But it's okay, because the Scoobies stop Ethan from ever traveling back in time, thus preventing the entire story from ever happening. Does that sound like a very satisfying episode to you? No? Me neither. And yet that's exactly what JLU did to Terry and Batman Beyond.

I'm not trying to anger anyone by posting this. I'm not trying to insult this crew, and all their hard work. I hold nothing but respect and admiration towards them. All I want to do is generate some discussion on these issues, and perhaps raise a few valid points about where JLU could be different. Thanks for reading through this, and I look forward to any and all responses.

--Larry

Style

02-03-2005, 05:35 PM

But "The Greatest Story Never Told" was one of the worst things they've ever put to screen. Booster Gold's personality is nearly the same as The Flash's, except that he's a "new" character with no history, no viewer recognition, and frankly, comes off as an annoyingly horny jerk the entire episode. This would be fine if he learned a lesson at the end--but he doesn't. He gets a happy ending, with no character growth. And then he's never seen again in another episode. I'd be hypocritcal here if I didn't answer this. Booster DOES learn a lesson, and DOES experience character growth. He learns that being a hero is more than just fame and recognition. Hey, it's not that deep, but it's better than-(Blatant TOAFT II bashing removed.)

I won't even discuss how crude it was to have a scene where Wonder Woman sticks Atom in-between her boobs, or the gratuitous cleavage shots which result. Maybe funny for most male fans, but from the 8-year-old little girl watching the episode with me, all it did was make her say "eewww" and recognize it, perhaps not as being sexist, but even for her it struck her as being downright wrong. I watch JLU with an 8 year old girl, a 4 year old boy, and a 3 year old boy. All of them enjoy Justice League, and the little kids love the dvd sets for B:TAS and S:TAS. The 4 year old watches all my old tapes of Batman Beyond, and cites Terry as being his favorite character. Lately, all of them have been tuning out of JLU, calling it "boring." If the shows are aimed in the very least at capturing the attention of small children, I can say it's failing miserably compared to Teen Titans. And the thing is, it SHOULDN'T be failing. There is no reason for this, and I don't think any of us would want this show to fail. But all the fan servicing is killing the series. Yeah, Atom in WW's boobies made me wince too, as a 20-year-old heterosexual male. I mean, it was juvenile. And as for-(Blatant JLU vs. TT baiting removed.)

Which brings us to "The Once and Future Thing," arguably the biggest disappointment to come out of these brilliant creators. The story is a mess. It's all over the place. The first half begins with Chronos as the villain, but quickly shuffles him aside for a completely pointless western romp. The western heroes introduced have little personality besides an occasional one-liner, and Jonah Hex is completely wasted. Why do we care about the Native American sheriff and his conflict at the end? We don't. We have no attachment to him. Why are there robot dinosaurs instead of real dinosaurs? Why does the villain have a winged horse at the end? It's mindless, and the story falls apart under any kind of scrutiny. The creators have peppered the series with flirting between Batman and Wonder Woman as well, but with no payoff, that too is distracting in the teaser. And then we have Part Two. Let me go on record as saying I LOVED part one as good clean fun.

[/QUOTE]

EJill34

02-03-2005, 05:42 PM

I can't help but feel this sort of edict has been abandoned in JLU. There's no doubt, with apologies for singling him out, fans like GMahler wouldn't have been thrilled by seeing the Son of Man-Bat; but the creators wisely recognized that such fan servicing would detract from the series, and avoided it.
I'm a bit confused by what you're saying here. It sounds to me like you mean to say that I would have been thrilled to see the son of Man-Bat (I wouldn't have, but that's besides the point) or am I mistaken?

shoujoaifan

02-03-2005, 06:06 PM

Yes.

They're fun for us geeks and Bats needs to loosen up now and then, but JLU, which I love, is a drop in quality from JL, which was far from the greatest thing anyway.

Look at it this way: EVEN THOUGH the DCAU team , at the end of each show, B:TAS, S:TAS, etc., thought they were done and then SURPIRSE!, they get another show-EVEN THEN, this is possibly their last hurrah in the DCAU. WB gave a new crew "The Batman", and they'll probabaly do it with a new Superman show, since you know that's going to happen. And its a GOOD thing. Gives other people a chance. And Timm/The-50,000-Others behind the current DCAU could conceivably get a JLU spin-off, andf they ARE accomplished animators/writers/whatever's. If they don't get something else with WB, even non-DC related, other studios will want them.

(And I've barely read any DC comics;most of my geek fix comes from reading the list of cameos from JLU ep.1 and seeing them on TV and reading up on the other geek stuff in the threads;basically I'm kinda in between a DC comic/animation geek and the normal fan. Meaning I either "get" both sides...or don't know what I'm talking about.)

Mek

02-03-2005, 06:10 PM

Rabi~en~Rose

02-03-2005, 06:17 PM

shoujoaifan

02-03-2005, 06:19 PM

Personally speaking as a fan of just the DCAU -I ain't a fan of DC comics in the slightest- the 'fan moments' in JLU do jack nothing for me. I mean, as someone who grew up with Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS and even to an extent 'Batman Beyond'; am I supposed to even care about who The Question, Green Arrow, Booster Gold and Black Canary are? That's why some episodes are just a major dissapointment for me.

But what do I know? I only grew up with BTAS and such as the only DC thing I remotley liked. (And still do)They need to find balance;its okay to have cameos in the background to feed their geekiness, hell, giant fight scenes like in "Dark Heart" rock, BUT the story was bare-thin.

I don't care if they're are 10,000 characters in the background, do something with the 2 or 3 that's actually being used then it'll COULD work, if written good, since just becuase there's 10,000 guys behind them doesn't mean they have to use the 10,000, even if its distracting at times if not done right, but if they actually TRY to use the 2 or 3, then they need to WRITE those 2 or 3.

Not to say all the episodes sucked;overall, I find JL and JLU to slightly over generic, with JL slightly better and definately easier to care about the slightly better than generic 7 characters, compared to the 12 or so out of 65+ on JLU actually being used.

MrBananagrabber

02-03-2005, 06:28 PM

I agree with the original post. As a kid, I was always a fan of the Batman animated series, and Batman Beyond. They were more down to earth than the other superhero shows, and I liked that. So, as you can guess, I haven't been the biggest fan of Justice League. But I did watch it occasionally, and I did like some episodes. But with this season finale, I agree, it was just poorly executed. The extent that they literally just threw a character on the screen, who then said "I'm Hal Jordan!" and then just disappeared really sums up how pointless these cameos can get. Making nods to the fans of comics is one thing, but once it detracts from the actual storytelling then it's certainly gone too far.

Bud 'n Lou

02-03-2005, 06:32 PM

Excellent points, Drizzt. I agree that "Once And Future Thing" was a very unfocused effort. The simplest way to solve the problem would have been to have both parts take place in the future. Part one was completely and utterly pointless.
First of all, I fail to see what viewership part one was even catering to, even from a "fan moment" perspective. How many viewers were clammoring to see those old west heroes on the screen, let alone knew who they were? And I doubt even a diehard fan of the characters could have been satisfied anyway, because their roles were so limitted and depthless. Most of them didn't even appear until halfway in. This particular issue is not one limitted to this episode, but as Drizzt pointed out, the parade of superfluous cameos has plagued several episodes this season. All it does is add confusion and clouds an episode's focus. Not only that, but such overcrowding is not just an unfortunate underutilization of those guest characters, it winds up a hindrance for character development for the show's regulars as well. By trying to force in "moments" for everyone, you end up wasting all of them. A lack of focus on characters has been a problem with JL since season one to begin with (even with a significant improvement in season two), and all this does is worsen the problem.
Another problem with part one of "OAFT" was that nothing really seemed to happen. The pacing was relatively slow, especially in comparison to part two, which moved at a pace that was definately TOO fast, and seemed to have a million different things happening all at once. The only thing that I was sure would carry over from part one to part two was the relationship between Batman and Wonder Woman, only because so much time was devoted to it in the teaser, which I was obviously proven wrong about. But it was a special two part episode, JLU's first. I figured that, being such a novelty, the stakes would be raised, and the episode would be sort of an "event." If there was going to be any episode this season that would bring this kind of character development and shake up the status quo, I'd have assumed it would be this one. It had all the makings to be a big event, afterall. It was a crossover with Batman Beyond, a milestone that comes with a high degree of excitement, and leaves fans with certain expectations (or perhaps an even better word, from some fans' perspective, would be "requirements"). As Drizzt pointed out, the potential was there for lots of good character development/drama. All of it just sitting there, waiting, rather conspicuosly, to be exploited. The relationships and interactions between present Bruce, future Bruce, and Terry...to me, it seems like the whole point of this episode would be to capitalize on this ripe little prospect. It was like a great big target painted on the side of a barn. Can't miss it. And yet, they somehow managed to do just that. For this reason, the episode was not just a disappointment, it was also a bit...baffling.
Hmm...for all my complaining about JLU having no focus, I have to admit that this has been a pretty unfocused post! I did have some points to make, but I sort of lost my direction and wound up stringing together a bunch of thoughts. I WAS really going somewhere with all this, I promise. :0P

El Zorro

02-03-2005, 06:37 PM

Absolutely. While I still enjoy the show, JLU is the weakest of the DCAU shows. The primary reason for this--as I see it--is that there has been a tendency toward these "fan moments." Fan moments are fine, but they should be used sparingly like a spice. A lot of times JLU comes across as being just a tad self indulgent and too often seems to have more in common with fan fiction than BTAS.

Having said that, I don't think the show is so bad that I don't enjoy watching it. I watch it every week without fail. But I don't enjoy it nearly as much as I did the previous shows (JL included).

Captain Clown

02-03-2005, 06:46 PM

Bud 'n Lou

02-03-2005, 06:59 PM

Captain Clown

02-03-2005, 07:16 PM

Most of the time, the characters in the background don't really serve a purpose though, that's the thing. And if no one bothers to give them a name or personality, why should we even care about them? I just view them as a distraction that takes precious screen time away from the characters we HAVE started to become invested in. I don't see that it hurts anything to have them there, considering the fact that the focus is always centered on just a couple of characters. The JLU's supposed to be a massive force (a plot point or theme in itself) that we see a little more of each week (or most weeks), it's certainly not confusing me any to see some characters that aren't named or haven't been named yet.

And when we do meet a character, their personality is nailed pretty quickly. I know what the Elongated Man is like. I know what Captain Atom is like. I've never read a comic book featuring either (and I know the comic versions are different anyway).

And all the "big event" stuff for OAFT2 came from the audience, there's nothing wrong with the episode. People are just ripping it up for not being the Final Definitive Word on the DCAU, which is ridiculous.

Carrieattheprom

02-03-2005, 07:28 PM

I was introduced to the DCU by BTAS. So whenever I hear mention of Green Arrow, Booster Gold or whomever I always go,"Who?" In fairness the original JL did get me interested in the Flash. After seeing him in the cartoon I started reading the comics. Didn't have too much trouble catching up, especially since my library has the Crisis story. But then again Flash was a developed character who appeared in many episodes, making it easier for me to become interested. If some of these cameo guys could become more developed characters, fans of the cartoon might take interest in seeing them in their original comic book form.

Killtacular

02-03-2005, 07:41 PM

It was a problem with regular Justice League too. Sometimes it seemed like the show was more interested in shocking you with cameos from old series, than telling a decent story.

Temple Fugate

02-03-2005, 07:47 PM

I agree there have been many in-jokes and references to old series and comic books most fans of the DCAU never read (I only read Detective Comics and an occasional JLA, and never heard of Hawk, Dove, Black Canary, and Captain Atom until JLU). But I figure, this is the last DCAU series that Timm & Co will ever work on. Let them have their fun and enjoy this stuff for as long as it lasts.

But please, no more "Kids' Stuff" episodes. ;)

Fone Bone

02-03-2005, 07:51 PM

Before Once and Future Thing Part 2: What? No! Of course not! What kind of stupid question is that?

After Once and Future Thing Part 2: Maybe.

There isn't an easy answer to this in my mind. OaFT2 was a MESS but I'm not completely sure that had to do with fan-service. If I'm honest I will acknowledge that I have complained on more than one occasion that it was actually a "screw you!" moment for Batman Beyond fans. I'm sure Bruce Timm and Dwayne McDuffie have had discussions that go like this:

Dwayne McDuffie: The fans are that they want to see a whole bunch of different new heroes. They also hate the Flash so we'll downplay his role next year.

b.t.: Those are legimate concerns. Let's do it!

Fans: The new heroes have taken the focus off the the original cast! I miss Flash who is and always has been the greatest character ever!

b.t.: What EXACTLY do you fwickin' geeks WANT?!!

Joss Whedon: Don't give them want they want. Give them what they need.

b.t.: The sad thing is I actually quoted that a couple of years ago.

PeterFries

02-03-2005, 08:07 PM

Style

02-03-2005, 08:13 PM

mahoney

02-03-2005, 08:15 PM

This is such a non-issue to me... you don't have to know the names and origins of all the background characters for them to serve a purpose or to enjoy their presence. I wonder if people would be complaining if there were a huge number of originally-created superheroes in the background of the stories? Actually, to me, these episodes may as well be populated with under-characterized original superheroes, because I don't know enough of the comic book characters to know who any of them are.

It seems as though most people on this board are either long-time comic book fans or fans of DC animated since BTAS and STAS. Either way, you all have a pretty big advantage over me. I've only been watching animation since Batman Beyond was on. Since then, I've gotten into Justice League, Static Shock & Teen Titans. What works about all of these shows, for me, is that they spend time developing the characters - characters I know nothing about except for what the show tells me.

So watching episodes of JLU has been...frustrating. With almost each new episode I'm being asked to care for brand new heroes who are given minimal characterization over the course of about twenty minutes. It's hard to get into for me. Honestly? For the Man Who Has Everything is one of the few eps I've really, really enjoyed mainly because I actually knew *all* of the characters, so the action and events meant something to me.

(And now that I'm thinking about it, that may have been why TOAFT pt. 2 was so big a let-down: I was looking forward to more familiar characters, but instead the main character was Chronos - once again, a guy I knew nothing about and didn't feel I was given sufficient reason to care about. Oh, well.)

And Booster Gold is so not just like the Flash. What a drastic oversimplification.I agree with Booster Gold = Flash. From what I saw, you could have plunked Flash into that role and the story would have been basically the same. (And since Flash is one of my favorite characters, I admit I spent the episode thinking, dude! why didn't they just use Flash??) But then again, like I said, I wouldn't know Booster Gold from...well, Flash.

I feel like every time I've posted here recently I've just ragged, and I apologize for that. I really love the show, and I am still there on Saturday, watching. It's just that I'm glad to have the chance to discuss it here, and to see other opinions, and I'm totally thrilled to see the threads that discuss future episodes. I think that if I can learn from you guys about the characters coming up before I see the eps, I'll really be able to enjoy them more.

James

02-03-2005, 08:55 PM

I agree with Booster Gold = Flash. From what I saw, you could have plunked Flash into that role and the story would have been basically the same. (And since Flash is one of my favorite characters, I admit I spent the episode thinking, dude! why didn't they just use Flash??) But then again, like I said, I wouldn't know Booster Gold from...well, Flash.

I disagree. The nature of Booster Gold being from the future and being so totally and utterly out of touch is what makes him so funny. I cried with laughter at his total inability to be what he wanted.

Flash is totally different. A whimsical character, but the background is as important as the quips. No, if this had been a Flash episode wouldn't have been half as funny from my perspective.

Personally, aside from Batman, I've never been a MAJOR DC fan, so a lot of the cameos fall on deaf ears for me.

They don't offend me, although I am not interested in them like some fans are. If I see Black Canary sitting there it's not a "OMG ITS CANARY!!!!11 WOW!" moment for me. It all comes down to their relevance to the plot. Hal Jordan was pointless and a fun twist but not the ground breaking moment for me as it was for some. Each to their own take. :)

If fans get a kick out of some gratuitous cameos, doesn't really affect me providing the stories are sound. While not a perfect two parter, OAFT was fun, as have been a lot of the JLU.

As long as the cameos don't damage the show I don't mind. I've not really seen much to justify that yet.

adoptedBatpuppy

02-03-2005, 09:00 PM

This is a big mess, I don't think the show is all that bad. But, I don't want to get into the argument with you guys. :rolleyes:

EJill34

02-03-2005, 09:10 PM

I don't know about everyone else, but I watch JLU to have fun. I watch it to indulge my deepest and most geeky fantasies. I know a lot of people expect these great dramas with amazing status quo shake-ups within the course of 22 minutes or huge, sprawling epics to rival The Odyssey, but I don't. I expect to see nice action, solid stories, good dialogue and character interactions and some cool in-jokes. Maybe that's why I rate JLU episodes more favorably than almost everyone else on this board. Even though JLU has rather serious themes I can't help but feel its not really taking itself as seriously as people think (see "Initiation," "Kid Stuff," "This Little Piggy," "The Greatest Story Never Told," "Dark Heart," "The Once and Future Thing, Part 1"--all are pretty fluffy and fun in comparison to the "Let's see how epic we can make this episode" mentality that seemed to be present in JL). Terry just got ripped apart and electrocuted? Cool. Amazo just blew Red Tornado up? Cool beans. Hal Jordan just appeared out of nowhere? Sweet.

JLU is a completely different show than any other one in the DCAU. People expecting uber-serious dramas should go watch their B:TAS sets (that's what I do). When I turn on my TV every Saturday at 8:30 PM I turn my brain off. I'm not suggesting everyone else do this, but just try it. No pre-conceived expectations, nothing. Just say to yourself: "I want to have a good time" and I guarantee you'll have a good time. I used to despise Teen Titans until I realized that if I didn't think about plot holes and how it was departing from the comic versions then I would enjoy it more. And guess what? I did. Of course, I still enjoy the more comedic episodes over the serious ones but I'm finally starting to see why people like the show so much.

That's not to say that JLU doesn't raise interesting questions and doesn't progress its characters because it DOES, but I think we all have a tendency to overanalyze it and that takes away a lot of potential enjoyment we have for the show. Maybe I'm just getting nostalgic for my younger days, but JLU is just great entertainment. Its escapism at its best and I can't praise the show enough for giving me some time to to just relax and see my favorite comic book characters in action.

Revelator

02-03-2005, 09:17 PM

You know what? I think the fans, with their constant niggling, pewling and whining are far likely to sour my experience of JLU than the actual episodes. There's a difference between criticism and the weird mixture of warped nostalgia, factual misreadings, and self-centered requests that endlessly manifests itself on this board.

You know what? I'm pretty much ignorant of 99% of DC's comics, and I'm greatly enjoying JLU. The show's format is obvious: three to four members of the JLU are featured every week, with an occasional emphasis on one hero. Beyond that, minor characters will show up as wallpaper or spectacle, without taking much time out of the episode. Instead of comprehending this, or appreciating some lovely bits of spectacle that take little away from the core of the episode, we get the same old whines from people complaining about how every character they see isn't fleshed out. A standout episode like "Dark Heart" is a procedural that focuses on the league working as a unit, with Atom spearheading a communal operation. The focus is on watching the league in action. Knowing the name of the guy on the winged horse or the bad-ass guy on the motorbike doesn't contribute anything to one's enjoyment of the episode. The episode is meant to show a unit in action, not dawdle over names.
I'm not immersed in DC lore, and the show stands as a unit for me. Nor does it seem to me like a confused mess--perhaps disgruntled viewers might wish to start blaming their own shortcomings rather than the staff.
Worse yet are those foolish words about TGSNT, the best comedic JLU episode. If you think Booster Gold's personality is the same as the Flash, try fitting him into the episode instead and seeing how easy that is. Flash is someone whose heart is actually in heroism, depsite the commercials. Booster Gold is a fraud who's in the game for fame and money, and learns that the satisfaction of actually being of help is payment in itself.
I suppose dirty minds would consider the WW/Atom moment as dirtier than it really is--lightly bawdy humor may strike some viewers that way. But I didn't see Diana shove Atom between her knockers--I saw her place him on the crest of her brassiere.
JLU is plainly designed to capture the attention of older children--it's not structured or written in the same fashion of TT, which is plainly geared toward the younger part of the spectrum. Crying that all this fan servicing is killing the series is a bit ludicrous when the series is currently enjoying very high ratings.

"The Once and Future Thing" I regard as flawed because the second part was compressed into 22 minutes when it plainly required twice that amount of time. But it was plainly meant as a fun romp, not a rumination over the past and present, and what it's getting knocked for is precisely the fact that it didn't give fanservice to the needs of some McGinnis fans, who are comfortable complaining about every other sort of fan service and moan about how JLU is supposedly wasting away when the show is stronger than ever.

I think there are two sorts of people who watch JLU: the sort who complain abou why they should care about all these new characters and the sort who just watch and come away knowing that Green Arrow, Booster Gold, The Question, the Atom and other characters have delineated to the extent that they could hardly be confused with any others, and that extends to even minor appearances, like those of the western heroes, who added a great deal of color and dash to OAFT. JLU has been a success in both ratings and with the majority of the fans. If some people can't handle that, too bad. Go rewatch your BTAS DVDs and come back when your complaints hold more water. Or perhaps 10 years from now JLu will be venerated and Timm's newest DCAU show will be getting the same old flak. As I said, my knowledge of DC comics can fit on the head of a pin. That hasn't stopped me from enjoying JLU.

Rabi~en~Rose

02-03-2005, 09:21 PM

It was a problem with regular Justice League too. Sometimes it seemed like the show was more interested in shocking you with cameos from old series, than telling a decent story.

isn't it better though for them to reference their own series instead of someone elses comics?

Fone Bone

02-03-2005, 09:25 PM

You know what? I think the fans, with their constant niggling, pewling and whining are far likely to sour my experience of JLU than the actual episodes. There's a difference between criticism and the weird mixture of warped nostalgia, factual misreadings, and self-centered requests that endlessly manifests itself on this board.

You know what? I'm pretty much ignorant of 99% of DC's comics, and I'm greatly enjoying JLU. The show's format is obvious: three to four members of the JLU are featured every week, with an occasional emphasis on one hero. Beyond that, minor characters will show up as wallpaper or spectacle, without taking much time out of the episode. Instead of comprehending this, or appreciating some lovely bits of spectacle that take little away from the core of the episode, we get the same old whines from people complaining about how every character they see isn't fleshed out. A standout episode like "Dark Heart" is a procedural that focuses on the league working as a unit, with Atom spearheading a communal operation. The focus is on watching the league in action. Knowing the name of the guy on the winged horse or the bad-ass guy on the motorbike doesn't contribute anything to one's enjoyment of the episode. The episode is meant to show a unit in action, not dawdle over names.
I'm not immersed in DC lore, and the show stands as a unit for me. Nor does it seem to me like a confused mess--perhaps disgruntled viewers might wish to start blaming their own shortcomings rather than the staff.
Worse yet are those foolish words about TGSNT, the best comedic JLU episode. If you think Booster Gold's personality is the same as the Flash, try fitting him into the episode instead and seeing how easy that is. Flash is someone whose heart is actually in heroism, depsite the commercials. Booster Gold is a fraud who's in the game for fame and money, and learns that the satisfaction of actually being of help is payment in itself.
I suppose dirty minds would consider the WW/Atom moment as dirtier than it really is--lightly bawdy humor may strike some viewers that way. But I didn't see Diana shove Atom between her knockers--I saw her place him on the crest of her brassiere.
JLU is plainly designed to capture the attention of older children--it's not structured or written in the same fashion of TT, which is plainly geared toward the younger part of the spectrum. Crying that all this fan servicing is killing the series is a bit ludicrous when the series is currently enjoying very high ratings.

"The Once and Future Thing" I regard as flawed because the second part was compressed into 22 minutes when it plainly required twice that amount of time. But it was plainly meant as a fun romp, not a rumination over the past and present, and what it's getting knocked for is precisely the fact that it didn't give fanservice to the needs of some McGinnis fans, who are comfortable complaining about every other sort of fan service and moan about how JLU is supposedly wasting away when the show is stronger than ever. This is a valid complaint. Part of me resents OaFT2 for being such a fan-job and part of me wishes it had been more of one. I do think it is important to realize that fans may not know exactly what they want but if they don't like what they see, they will identify that more readily. I have been EXTREMELY favorable about JLU's new format so I don't nessecarily think my gripes about ONE episode are that out of line.

I think there are two sorts of people who watch JLU: the sort who complain abou why they should care about all these new characters and the sort who just watch and come away knowing that Green Arrow, Booster Gold, The Question, the Atom and other characters have delineated to the extent that they could hardly be confused with any others, and that extends to even minor appearances, like those of the western heroes, who added a great deal of color and dash to OAFT. JLU has been a success in both ratings and with the majority of the fans. If some people can't handle that, too bad. Go rewatch your BTAS DVDs and come back when your complaints hold more water. Or perhaps 10 years from now JLu will be venerated and Timm's newest DCAU show will be getting the same old flak. As I said, my knowledge of DC comics can fit on the head of a pin. That hasn't stopped me from enjoying JLU.Kay. You sound mad. Ice cream helps but it makes you fat.:)

mahoney

02-03-2005, 09:28 PM

I think there are two sorts of people who watch JLU: the sort who complain abou why they should care about all these new characters and the sort who just watch and come away knowing that Green Arrow, Booster Gold, The Question, the Atom and other characters have delineated to the extent that they could hardly be confused with any others, and that extends to even minor appearances, like those of the western heroes, who added a great deal of color and dash to OAFT. I'm not trying to complain, I'm just talking about it. It was nice to have others who seem to have a similar issue as I do as far as why the huge cast isn't working for me. But I'm glad you and others enjoy it.

Supremus

02-03-2005, 09:31 PM

I've said this before, but I know if I worked on this series and looked forward for months to see what fans thought of the wacky fun to be had in Time, Warped only to check into this board and read post after post immediately complaining about time travel logic or unresolved Batman Beyond fanfiction or whatever, I think I'd give up animation altogether and join the Peace Corps. The positive posters outnumber the negative ones by quite a considerable margin, it's just that the negative posters have a tendency to go on, and on, and on, and on about it, and sometimes it can feel like the balance is shifting in favor of negativity, particular after page 20 of a talkback thread where only the most obsessive fanboys are still hanging in there, and I sometimes count myself among those, but you only need to look at the polls for most episodes to realize that the general reaction is usually overwhelmingly positive.

I think Team JLU would be a little bit surprised, and quite possibly bored, if every message read "Greatest Episode EVER!". Still, there does seem to be quite a lot of these "Are Teen Titans Better Than JLU?" or "Does JLU Suck?" threads popping up, but I have noticed people have in the past started more positive threads praising and thanking Team JLU in more general terms, and more often than not they were closed as they were seen to be attempts at getting the attention of our resident celebrities. Maybe they were, I don't know, I'm just saying Timm & Co don't need to go to bed every night thinking we all hate them and their show. Maybe we should have some more "Are The Fanboys Ruining JLU?" threads?

Back on subject; I don't think the fan-moments necessarily ruin JLU. My favorite JLU episodes have usually been the ones that didn't focus so much on those kinds of things, but you can still have fan-moments in good episodes, it's not really that big a factor in itself. I think there are other problems with the bad episodes, and if it weren't a Hal Jordan or Lobo appearance, it would just be something else that were used to fill the gaps, and it can be pretty disappointing when an episode with tons of potential under-achieves, so to speak, but it's not every single episode, and I certainly wouldn't say the show as a whole is being ruined, as it has been constantly improving since season 1.

raynos

02-03-2005, 10:33 PM

For the record, I'm not a comic fan. Sometimes I read certain issues of JLA and wince, and other times I'm all ra-ra about it. But mostly, my staple of JL has been from JL and JLU, and mostly the creative team has been consistent with keeping up to my tastes.

The gripe that I have about JLU is not really the expanded roster, or the fan moments, but more on /how/ these are used. We have new characters, fine. We have pure fan service moments (Western hero cameos!). We have obscure cameos (waves 'Dr Light 2 fan' placard proudly). But where does this all lead to?

Sadly, not much. I like some of the new heroes, but I think that they shouldn't be always relegated to background status. One of the reasons why I liked Fearful Symmetry so much was because, unlike most of the episodes, it actually /focuses/ on the new characters, rather than having them pop up for things that could be handled by, well, anyone. It didn't have to be Dr Light saving Bats... it could have been another of the other 100 or so heroes. And when stuff like that happens, it really makes you wonder what all those heroes are for.

New characters have been added in well before. I was quite impressed with how they inserted Kyle Rayner into the JL universe, and really, if they could do that with the others, I wouldn't mind at all.

Now, on fan service. Like others have said, it doesn't hurt at all... until it derails the story. Bats singing was fine... the lead-up to it wasn't. What, exactly, was This Little Piggy? We have Circe, we have Zatanna, we have Bats (and WW... sorta) but the story we get is about their various attempts to find Circe and WW the pig getting chased by butchers. There's something about that that's just (can't find another word) so meh about it. Now, for TOAFT part 1, that was partly fan service, but they kept in mind that the most important thing was /not/ Jonah Hex being bad-ass, but the story.

So, no, there's nothing wrong with fan moments and new characters, but they kinda lost sight of the main thing along the way. These should be tools to aid the story, but not THE story.

Drizzt2218

02-03-2005, 10:49 PM

First, thanks to everyone for bothering to read my (admittedly) long winded post, and then post their own thoughts on the subject. I appreciate it, and did not anticipate such a response. I'm glad everyone has (for the most part) kept things polite and civil, too. I don't think anyone takes for granted the hard work and effort that the crew puts into the show, and as I said before, I respect and admire them a great deal. I'm glad we can have this discussion, and all the different replies and viewpoints have made this a great thread to read through this evening. I wanted to make this brief though, lord knows I wrote enough to begin with. Just wanted to thank everyone for their input. I look forward to reading through this thread as the discussion continues.

--Larry

Beyond Batman

02-03-2005, 10:50 PM

No.

The "fan moments" are not ruining the JLU.

BT and crew are giving fans exactly what the majority of fans are asking for, a show that nods its head to long time comic fans and new fans exclusive to the DCAU universe. So there will be a little give-and-take every now and then.

Overall, the show is great, entertaining, and fun to watch.

Squall

02-03-2005, 11:14 PM

If by "fan moments" you mean episodes like "The Once And Future Thing", "Wake The Dead", and "The Return", then no. Episodes that continue storlyines begun in previous Bruce Timm & Co. DCAU shows (B:TAS/TNBA, S:TAS, JL, BB) are the main reason I watch JLU.

Occasionally JLU hits on a cool new hero, like Green Arrow, or a cool new villian, like Chronos, but many of the random new heroes & villians that have shown up in JLU have done nothing but make me cringe, unfortunately. :shrug:

(Note: I mean 'new' in the sense of being new to the animated continuity, which is completely seperate from anything in the comics.)

Style

02-03-2005, 11:24 PM

"The Once and Future Thing" I regard as flawed because the second part was compressed into 22 minutes when it plainly required twice that amount of time. But it was plainly meant as a fun romp, not a rumination over the past and present, and what it's getting knocked for is precisely the fact that it didn't give fanservice to the needs of some McGinnis fans, who are comfortable complaining about every other sort of fan service and moan about how JLU is supposedly wasting away when the show is stronger than ever.
I've actually been trying to figure out alternate ways to interperate TOAFT II. And while I did consider the "fun romp, nothing more" theory, I had problems with it. compared to other JLU romps like "Kids Stuff," "This Little Piggy," and "Greatest Story Never Told," "TOAFT II" is much weightier with it's threat and the material it deals with. The whole thing feels important, but isn't treated as such. Almost like it's caught between moods, and doesn't know whether to play for pathos or comedy, and for me it's hard to accept it as either. I've written at leangth about it's failings as a drama. But as a comedy, it doesn't pursue it with enough reckless abondon. I don't mean it should go for a Teen Titans tone, but at least what other JLU romps have done.

Ofcourse, there is another possibility: That the whole exercise is a joke at the expense of fanboy expectations, in which case I've provided my services as a rather large butt of said joke. But it seems that they haven't delivered the punchline yet. And if b.t. or Dwayne would, and show me as being utterly rediculous, then that would be great. At least then I could accept the episode at some level...

Revelator

02-03-2005, 11:46 PM

And if b.t. or Dwayne would, and show me as being utterly rediculous, then that would be great. At least then I could accept the episode at some level...
I think we can agree that Stracrossed probably wouldn't have worked as well were it only 44 minutes, and TOAFT would work much better as a three parter. As it is, since both seasons of JLU were ordered together, it's more of an excursion than some sort of epic season finale. (The real season finale will be that awesome-sounding 4 parter). TOAFT is only weightier as a romp than the other episodes you listed in that the consequences of not stopping the villain would be especially dire. The writers were faced with an obvious problem--sure, you can have Warhawk revealed as GL's son, and have Batman meet his future self and McGinnis, but if you go too far in depth the characters will know too much about their future, and the only solution would be the memory-wipe cop-out. I actually think that approach would in the end have worked better. (Just as "Over the Edge" could go hog-wild because everything would ultimately be revoked.)

Then there is the issue of fanboy expectations. Simply put, the fanboys had all these grand aspirations--it'll finally anchor BB in continuity! etc--that the staff obviously didn't share. To them it was a let's-have-our-heroes visit the future story, not the ultimate chance to resolve all unfinished business and focus on interpersonal relations. It wasn't a joke on fanboy expectations, just oblivious of them. I don't believe the folks who post on Toonzone, myself included, are neccesarily representative of the entire audience JLU caters to. Most of the people who watch the show are more casual fans than us, and their demands are neither as specific or as in depth. They may remember BB fondly and simply be happy to see Terry reappear, rather than grouse over very specific details. In other words, while the fervent fans are listened to and catered to by b.t. and company, there is a wider audience that may be satisfied differently. But don't expect b.t. to show you that you're utterly ridiculous. If you can't accept the episode, then that's it. A good many other people did, and in the larger sceme, that's what counts.

Style

02-03-2005, 11:53 PM

I think we can agree that Stracrossed probably wouldn't have worked as well were it only 44 minutes, and TOAFT would work much better as a three parter. As it is, since both seasons of JLU were ordered together, it's more of an excursion than some sort of epic season finale. (The real season finale will be that awesome-sounding 4 parter). TOAFT is only weightier as a romp than the other episodes you listed in that the consequences of not stopping the villain would be especially dire. The writers were faced with an obvious problem--sure, you can have Warhawk revealed as GL's son, and have Batman meet his future self and McGinnis, but if you go too far in depth the characters will know too much about their future, and the only solution would be the memory-wipe cop-out. I actually think that approach would in the end have worked better. (Just as "Over the Edge" could go hog-wild because everything would ultimately be revoked.)

Then there is the issue of fanboy expectations. Simply put, the fanboys had all these grand aspirations--it'll finally anchor BB in continuity! etc--that the staff obviously didn't share. To them it was a let's-have-our-heroes visit the future story, not the ultimate chance to resolve all unfinished business and focus on interpersonal relations. It wasn't a joke on fanboy expectations, just oblivious of them. I don't believe the folks who post on Toonzone, myself included, are neccesarily representative of the entire audience JLU caters to. Most of the people who watch the show are more casual fans than us, and their demands are neither as specific or as in depth. They may remember BB fondly and simply be happy to see Terry reappear, rather than grouse over very specific details. In other words, while the fervent fans are listened to and catered to by b.t. and company, there is a wider audience that may be satisfied differently. But don't expect b.t. to show you that you're utterly ridiculous. If you can't accept the episode, then that's it. A good many other people did, and in the larger sceme, that's what counts.
Well, I didn't mean it quite so ego-centric as it sounded. I suppose I just meant if they revealed it as a joke on fanboy expectations, I could accept it. It would make me look rediculous for having bashed it so hard, but I could accept it.

Figuring out this episode is almost a religious quest for me know. "Is it good?" "Why is it good?" "Who is it about?" "Why?" "Is it funny?" "Is it serious?" "What?" I want to be able to like it, but I just can't.

Revelator

02-03-2005, 11:58 PM

I want to be able to like it, but I just can't.
Well, if you can't, you can't. You shouldn't argue with your gut reactions. Perhaps the four parter, or episodes from the next season, will be more to your liking. In my case, I'm even more excited about the next batch of episodes than OAFT, and I'm looking to new characters like Black Canary and Mr. Miracle receiving the spotlight. As I said, I don't know anything about the comics, so I'm glad to have JLu to ease me into that world.

Crimson

02-04-2005, 12:10 AM

I've made my peace with JLU; I've lowered my expecations and, as such, I can get moderate entertainment value out of it. JUSTICE LEAGUE was a show I loved; JLU is a show I watch. Sometimes it annoys me, sometimes it bores me, and sometimes it entertains me. But, with the sole exception of FTMWHE, JLU has never stayed with me the way most episodes of JUSTICE LEAGUE did. With JLU, I usually forget about it even before I'm finished watching it. I also still inherently dislike the new format; it is essentially an anthology which are, almost by nature, wildly uneven.

The cameos are, for me, pointless. Personally I'm not the kind of fan who is going to pee his pants because of a 4 second cameo by an obscure comic book character (and let's face it -- they're obscure for a reason.) But I don't find myself too distracted by them. They add nothing, but they don't really detract either. They're no more important than the innumerable, unnamed soldiers we see in so many episodes. JLU, unfortunately, has bigger flaws than an overuse of cameos.

DerekPowers

02-04-2005, 12:25 AM

You make a lot of excellent points Drizzt, many of which i totally agree with.

My main problem with JLU has been the lack in story and character development. Does the fact that there are so many heros and so little time have something to do with that? Probably. But i dont think it's so much the "fan-service" as it is just plain, old fashioned, bad writing.

I personally felt that TOAFT part 2 was a step up in quality from the rest of the season. Reading all the complaints about how Terry was wasted in an episode where he should have been the main attraction, i think are valid. It would have been a better episode if Terry had been alittle more in the for-front of the story. BUT I think the reason that episode worked so well was because all the cameos and such worked toward telling a good VILLIAN story. If you have a time-traveling villian, then all these characters and elements kind of work.

I also agree with you about how frustrating it is to have all these characters, and they dont even bother to name them for us. Or they dont even speak. It really is just lame at this point, and I am always left pondering why they take this approach with JLU. Everything about the show is so flat and 1-dimensional. I dont even remember what just happened half the time and the plots are just so thin that i almost cant follow it. Its very senseless most of the time, with so many missed opportunities to tell good stories. Also, i agree with what you said about how, when they should be adding heros to the story to help out, they dont, which i think reflects bad and lazy writing. Its distracting, and just makes you take the show less seriously. FTMWHE is the biggest offender in that regard.

I think the 'fan-boy' cameos arent what is makes it bad, its actually what makes it watchable. Its why its on the air. Its how it sells toys. The inherent problems and overall premise of the show, yeah, makes it hard to tell focused stories, but in theory it should be able to be done. Episodes like TOAFT part 2, The Return, and Wake the Dead, i think, do a decent job at telling fairly good stories, with a lot of characters, all being used interestingly with some amount of development. As far as the other episodes, if it wasnt for the eye candy and bruce timm's beautifull designs fluttering all up in the backgrounds, then there really would be nothing left to remember once the episode ended. You certainly arent going to remember the over-simplified plots or 1-dimensional characters. But you might remember the pretty visuals, so.

anway, i guess the plots and shallow characters are in part due to the influx of all these "fan-servicing" characters, so its kind of a catch-22, but i dont think it is the main culprit of JLU's shortcomings. It's short-comings, imo, really lie in the weak story telling and weak characterizations, and basically, the weak writing.

anyway, welcome back Drizzt. I agree with a whole lot of what you said. And i've felt all along that JLU is the lowest quality "Timmverse" show we've gotten, BUT I am very hopefull it will improve in season 2, like JL did, and if TOAFT part 2 is any indication, i think it will. I know TOAFT part 2 wasnt perfect, but in my eyes is was pretty dang good, because it was a good villian story. And like we've all been saying, story hasnt been JLU's strong point, so i welcomed that with open arms.

The last thing i'll say is JLU is so ambitious, and has such potential energy to it, that i really think once they get it right, its really going to be something special. I just hope we dont have to sit through another season 1 for that to happen. peace.

MJC

02-04-2005, 12:35 AM

I don't see how any "fan moments" could be ruining the show. It's not like they detract from the story or anything (I am a fan though, I could be biased). A show like JLU is going to have a lot of fanservice just because of what type of show it is (50-something DC heroes...what do you expect?).

My only problem is the overuse of certain characters (Batman and Wonder Woman, I'm looking at you) and the underuse of others, which was a problem in JL as well.

Sue

02-04-2005, 12:35 AM

Well said, GMahler. I'm one of those fans who gets the in-jokes and comics references, and while I'm tickled by them, I'm certain I'd still enjoy JLU even if I didn't. Afterall, when I began watching Justice League, I knew very little about cast beyond name recongnition (I hadn't seen Batman or Superman for years at that point, so all that stuff was out of sight and out of mind). Hell, I never even heard of Martian Manhunter and Hawkgirl before then. None of that prevented JL from becoming one of my favorite TV shows.

90'sCartoonMan

02-04-2005, 12:36 AM

JLU is a completely different show than any other one in the DCAU. People expecting uber-serious dramas should go watch their B:TAS sets (that's what I do). When I turn on my TV every Saturday at 8:30 PM I turn my brain off. I'm not suggesting everyone else do this, but just try it. No pre-conceived expectations, nothing. Just say to yourself: "I want to have a good time" and I guarantee you'll have a good time. I used to despise Teen Titans until I realized that if I didn't think about plot holes and how it was departing from the comic versions then I would enjoy it more. And guess what? I did.
That's really true. I started liking Teen Titans the day I stopped calling Beast Boy "Gar".

I'm a comic book fan first and a cartoon fan second. I've been reading comic books for over 10 years, so I do LOVE the fan moments. I nearly squealed when I saw Hal Jordan.

However, I would trade all the "unlimited" members if it meant getting my Flash back. There are things I've come to expect from the DCAU. I want them to get back to the Lex Luthor plot and the government and I expect them to use the characterization they created for Hawkgirl rather than turn her into her comic book counterpart.

All fans have their degree of fickleness. Seeing Hal Jordan was one of my favorite moments of JLU season 1, but at the same time, I like John and want more of John because he's the Green Lantern we've been seeing all this time.

Since this is "Unlimited" and is following what BTAS, STAS, BB, and whatever else built on while at the same time given us an ever-expanding DCAU, there should be a balance between fan moments and continuing what we've been seeing.

Drizzt2218

02-04-2005, 01:07 AM

Derek Powers:

You ued to post way back in the day, didn't you? I recognize your name, and if I recall, we used to all have some fun discussions on Batman Beyond. (Oh, and Powers is one my favorite villains -- I always wished he'd returned sometime during BB's third season -- though Ascension was a great finish to the character.) I saw a familiar name, and felt the need to respond.

I'd like to add that my biggest indicators of whether a cartoon is working or not would be the little kids. They're the target audience, if not for Timm and co., then at least CN and WB. They're the ones who buy the toys, t-shirts, games, cereal, etc.; and as I've said, they are all big fans of B:TAS, S:TAS, BB, Static Shock (whether you want to view it as a DC show or not), Teen Titans, and Justice League. The 4 year old considers Batman Beyond his favorite series, and Terry his favorite character. The 3 year old loves Superman. Even with certain adult themes, all these shows keep them captivated, and inspire their imagination and sense of wonder.

It's not an insult to JLU to say that the show isn't doing that for them -- it's just a fact. They often (even the 8 year old) find themselves confused by the cameos and certain plot elements, which in turn make them annoyed and less eager to watch the show. All 3 of them fell asleep during The Greatest Story Never Told, the first time that's ever happened during Justice League --they usually pass out right after. And whether you think it was in poor taste or not, the 8 year old was disgusted by Atom being in WW's boobs, and being a little girl who thinks of WW as the ultimate kick-butt female, I can't say I blame her. We can discuss JLU to the death and we can all turn into complete fanboys doing it, but the very fact that the 3 little kids in the house find JLU to be the first Timm-show they have mixed feelings about tells me that something isn't working with this show.

I'm looking forward to these next 13 episodes though, and I'm optimistic that the series will only get better.

--Larry

Revelator

02-04-2005, 01:27 AM

[QUOTED: Drizzt2218]
I'd like to add that my biggest indicators of whether a cartoon is working or not would be the little kids....

The fact that Batman Beyond was requested because the suits felt BTAS/TNBA wasn't reaching enough kids is a fair indication that the DCAU series have often appealed to bigger kids even more than smaller ones, and they can be a lucrative target audience as well. Back in the Justice League days Matt Wilson was busy telling us that kids weren't so gung-ho on it. And now you're telling us that kids loved JL but JLU is losing them. Who shall we believe? And to be as blunt as possible, saying that JLU doesn't work just because your kids don't dig it is hardly a conclusive argument. Your family's reaction is worthwhile in itself, but is it representative of the nationwide norm? Does it explain why the finale had terrific ratings? And are you really surprised that a 4 year old wouldn't get much out of the show? As I had to point out earlier, beyond a certain point the experiences of isolated individuals have to make way for the bigger picture. We can debate on tit-for-tat terms endlessly--I know several children who immensely enjoy JLU--but if we're to ask if the show is losing its appeal, we have to go beyond the individual reactions and just saying, "oh, if my kids like it something must be wrong." Tell your kids to watch Teen Titans instead if they're bored. Maybe when they're a bit older they might like JLU more. Who knows?

paulie

02-04-2005, 01:28 AM

JLU has never stayed with me the way most episodes of JUSTICE LEAGUE did.

This is EXACTLY what I've been feeling, too. I don't think there's a reason I can nail down, either...it's not the cameos, it's not the 30-min episodes...it just is.

I've made my peace with JLU; I've lowered my expecations and, as such, I can get moderate entertainment value out of it. JUSTICE LEAGUE was a show I loved; JLU is a show I watch. Sometimes it annoys me, sometimes it bores me, and sometimes it entertains me. But, with the sole exception of FTMWHE, JLU has never stayed with me the way most episodes of JUSTICE LEAGUE did. With JLU, I usually forget about it even before I'm finished watching it. I also still inherently dislike the new format; it is essentially an anthology which are, almost by nature, wildly uneven.

Thanks for posting this--after TOAFT, this is absolutely where I'm at. And after reading (and participating) in the debate about JLU, I think it's the best approach.

Grimlock

02-04-2005, 01:33 AM

I remember you, Larry, from the old bat chat rooms. I went by Bort. I still talk to Kenshin every so often.

I don't think Derek Powers posted a long time ago, i believe he's currently about 15, so 4 years ago (or more), would make him 11, and he probably wouldn't be making the most thoughtful posts at that age :).

I do agree with a lot of what you said, but i also agree with people who are just able to enjoy this show. I know some cameos, but not all, and for the ones i don't, i attribute it to some DC hero, think it's gotta be cool for others to see, and move on. And then i'll usually come on here to see who that character was...you know this is how marvel used to get people into comics by havng random cameos and having people go buy those comics then.

I did like JL season 2 better than JLU, but just like STAS, TNBA, and BB, it got cut too short. A shame too as the writers were just hitting their stride, giving us gems like twilight and star crossed.

I have faith in timm & co., and i have a feeling next season's season finale is going to blow us all away.

And hey, if we're lucky, we'll get ANOTHER season of JLU, and hopefully by then they'll have mastered the art of how to do this, and almost every show will be perfect.

My only wish is that they'd do the "near apocalypse of '09" with Ra's. Come on, b.t., next season will be after batman begins is out, ask if you can just use Ra's, we all want him!!!!!

Enough fan whining for now :).

Drizzt2218

02-04-2005, 01:46 AM

RAINMAN

02-04-2005, 02:46 AM

I'm not sure how many here will remember me. I used to post under the name "Larry" a long time ago, both on the old WB Board and way back when this board first started. I even remember the circumstances under which James first created this board. I re-registered awhile ago, but with most of the old guard gone, I haven't been too inspired to get back into posting. However, for the first time in a long time, I finally feel like I have something to say.

Let me start by stating that I am nothing if not a die-hard fan of these shows. I grew up on B:TAS...these are the creators who inspired me to base my career off them, and become a writer, with an eye towards animation. It's easy to tear stuff down, but that's not my intent here. My intent is to be constructive, and politely raise my issues with the direction the "Timmverse" such as it were, has taken.

In the introduction to the screenplay for "Return of the Joker," Paul Dini began by writing this:

"When producers Alan Burnett, Glen Murakami, Bruce Timm and I began developing Batman Beyond in early 1998, we made a conscious decision to downplay much of the lore established in our first animated Batman series. It would have been easy to craft Beyond completely around elements from Bruce Wayne's life, which had resurfaced to confront his young pupil Terry McGinnis, nearly forty years later. After all, who wouldn't want to see our new Uncaped Crusader lock horns with the youthful clone of Catwoman or match wits with a supercomputer programmed by the original Riddler? The notion of going that route for fifty-two episodes was very tempting, which was all the more reason not to do it."

I can't help but feel this sort of edict has been abandoned in JLU. There's no doubt, with apologies for singling him out, fans like GMahler wouldn't have been thrilled by seeing the Son of Man-Bat; but the creators wisely recognized that such fan servicing would detract from the series, and avoided it. The same can be said for B:TAS and S:TAS as well, which focused on simplifying the broad histories of its characters, crafting great stories that could be enjoyed by anyone. It seems like JLU has forgotten what made these shows so magical to begin with.

Though "The Once and Future Thing" is what set this post in motion, my feeling of discontent really started back with "Hawk & Dove," and continued through episodes like "The Greatest Story Never Told." A huge team is an interesting idea in concept, but has basically served to only give fans a moment where they can go "Oh my god! They used Dr. Light 2!" These characters have added nothing to the stories, and in certain cases, having to suspend our disbelief that they wouldn't be called in to help in a situation has hampered the story. Few of them have had any speaking roles, fewer of them personality traits that couldn't be substituted for the established 7 members of the League.

An episode like "Dark Heart" becomes distracting for the non-fanboy viewers when all these characters are around and we aren't so much as given a name for any of them. Who's the guy on the winged horse? How does a cowboy with a six shooter contribute anything to this conflict? If one looks at the show and tries to see it from the perspective of someone not immersed in DC lore, it falls apart as a confusing mess most of the time. A couple episodes have handled the "fan stuff," well, in particular "Ultimatum" and "Wake The Dead." "For The Man Who Has Everything" was absolutely brilliant.

But "The Greatest Story Never Told" was one of the worst things they've ever put to screen. Booster Gold's personality is nearly the same as The Flash's, except that he's a "new" character with no history, no viewer recognition, and frankly, comes off as an annoyingly horny jerk the entire episode. This would be fine if he learned a lesson at the end--but he doesn't. He gets a happy ending, with no character growth. And then he's never seen again in another episode.

I won't even discuss how crude it was to have a scene where Wonder Woman sticks Atom in-between her boobs, or the gratuitous cleavage shots which result. Maybe funny for most male fans, but from the 8-year-old little girl watching the episode with me, all it did was make her say "eewww" and recognize it, perhaps not as being sexist, but even for her it struck her as being downright wrong. I watch JLU with an 8 year old girl, a 4 year old boy, and a 3 year old boy. All of them enjoy Justice League, and the little kids love the dvd sets for B:TAS and S:TAS. The 4 year old watches all my old tapes of Batman Beyond, and cites Terry as being his favorite character. Lately, all of them have been tuning out of JLU, calling it "boring." If the shows are aimed in the very least at capturing the attention of small children, I can say it's failing miserably compared to Teen Titans. And the thing is, it SHOULDN'T be failing. There is no reason for this, and I don't think any of us would want this show to fail. But all the fan servicing is killing the series.

Which brings us to "The Once and Future Thing," arguably the biggest disappointment to come out of these brilliant creators. The story is a mess. It's all over the place. The first half begins with Chronos as the villain, but quickly shuffles him aside for a completely pointless western romp. The western heroes introduced have little personality besides an occasional one-liner, and Jonah Hex is completely wasted. Why do we care about the Native American sheriff and his conflict at the end? We don't. We have no attachment to him. Why are there robot dinosaurs instead of real dinosaurs? Why does the villain have a winged horse at the end? It's mindless, and the story falls apart under any kind of scrutiny. The creators have peppered the series with flirting between Batman and Wonder Woman as well, but with no payoff, that too is distracting in the teaser. And then we have Part Two.

Terry McGuiness had 52 episodes and a DTV. This is more than S:TAS ever got. We haven't seen his character in a while. Fans have long wondered what would happen between a meeting between him and the original Batman in his prime. A time travel story that goes into the BB timeline is SPECIFICALLY tailored to the Batman mythology, or else there'd be no reason to go into this future at all. And yet the first thing that happens is a subplot between Green Lantern and Warhawk that doesn't go anywhere besides a couple one-liners, a villain who has suddenly grown crazy and insanely powerful with no explaination, and a gang of Jokerz that have somehow become powerful enough to destroy the entire League, with vaguely defined powers at bshows no interest in how things turned out. Terry shows no interest in seeing his mentor in his prime; and worse, besides being relegated to a few lines of dialogue, he spends most of the episode being beaten senselessly before he is needlessly killed at the end, and brought back off-screen after everything is fixed. The story even avoids so much as naming BB as the future of the DCU, by casting doubt over this future due to Batman and John "remembering" what happened. In short, a story that should have brought about some massive character development or at least had a real point to it, becomes another mindless romp with no sense of consequence. When time falls apart at the end, it seems like a way to wrap up the story, not a natural conclusion. Batman's cruel actions at the end are treated like a joke, and not a horrible way to dispose of the villain. And Hal Jordan's cameo is both pointless and confusing. Who is he? Why is he there? Worse, if John is gone, why is Warhawk still there? It detracts from the story, not enhances it.

A lot of us are Joss Whedon fans. So let's go with this hypothetical. Imagine in a year or two, a new spin-off is launched. And the series does an episode where Buffy and the gang travel into the past, because Ethan Rayne is trying to kill Angel right after he's been ensouled. We haven't seen the Angel character in a long time, and this story is specifically tailored to him. But instead, the first thing that happens is Buffy learns she is descended from Darla! Then we focus on Ethan some, as he recruits the vampires to help him stop the Scoobies, and empowers them with new magical abilities. Then we focus on the Scoobies misadventures in time, and a lot of pointless fighting. Angel spends the entire episode getting his butt kicked, before he's actually dusted! But it's okay, because the Scoobies stop Ethan from ever traveling back in time, thus preventing the entire story from ever happening. Does that sound like a very satisfying episode to you? No? Me neither. And yet that's exactly what JLU did to Terry and Batman Beyond.

I'm not trying to anger anyone by posting this. I'm not trying to insult this crew, and all their hard work. I hold nothing but respect and admiration towards them. All I want to do is generate some discussion on these issues, and perhaps raise a few valid points about where JLU could be different. Thanks for reading through this, and I look forward to any and all responses.

--Larry

Good point. I think the biggest problem is how things are being handle. It seem like they are just rushing things or forceing them which make it end up as being halfbacked. The only giant size team ep`s I thougth was needed was the return and that because amazo defeeted the original 7, so they needed all the help they could get going againts a god like being. As for merdo I don`t know if he stronger then amazo, then again he barly got enough screen time. They were so busy whit BG they forgot about the main villain of the ep. speacking of BG I see him as flash from the future too. How can a char get CD in 30 mim is beyond me. Any CD he got in the ep`s was lost once he walkoff into the sunset whit the girl he ben drooling over while marking ebated man. However, I would say BG is the worst of the new faces. That belong to vixen. Her sterotype personalty was so annoying that it made BG look like silver. Now that she invole in this pointless love traingle look like I gonna have to put up whit her more then I need to. I don`t expect every char to have bats or supes type personalty but I don`t want them to have annoying personalties either. I also don`t expect every eps to be some big epic and ground breaking, just good,fun and watchabile. Sadly JLU only had one ep like that.

Captain Clown

02-04-2005, 02:52 AM

I'm still reeling from the fact that people are longing for the good ol' days of JL... the DCAU bottomed out with JL season 1, as far as I'm concerned (tho even that was reasonably cool) and even season 2 was variable and heading towards staleness and repetition.

The funny thing is, I think people wouldn't be quite so put off if the "extraneous" heroes really were just anonymous soldiers. I think it bugs people to think there's a joke out there that they're not getting.

I'm one of these people that don't read the comics. I like the show and I think folks that see all the background characters as nothing more but nods to comics geeks are not fully grasping what they add to the show. But that's JMO, and I think other people have covered this better than I have...

Final note: I really do love the format of the show. It's even more daring than the 1-hour minimovie concept, and the results have generally been better.

Trevor Balena

02-04-2005, 08:51 AM

The funny thing is, I think people wouldn't be quite so put off if the "extraneous" heroes really were just anonymous soldiers. I think it bugs people to think there's a joke out there that they're not getting.
Exactly. If you know who the characters are, then great. You probably get a kick out of seeing them. But if you don't, then just think of them as foot soldiers until they end up getting spotlights. Think of it this way: if the episode doesn't tell you anything about them, it's because you don't need to know anything about them to enjoy the episode.

In my case, I'm a long-time comics fan, and I know all of the background characters. However, after a few episodes of JLU (I think it was around "This Little Piggy") I stopped being thrilled by cameos, and after that I was able to judge the episodes more objectively, I feel. Any you know what? I've enjoyed every episode (some more than others), even episodes like "Dark Heart", which many see as nothing more than cameo-fests. And I didn't enjoy them because of the cameos, but because of the actual merits of the episodes.

It's like after "Ultimatum" aired, people were whining endlessly about how the episode sucked because they didn't know who Amanda Waller and Maxwell Lord were. Well, guess what? Lord was, in all likelihood, a one-shot character, who was mainly there to move the plot along, and Waller was supposed to be mysterious. The writers gave you all the information you needed to enjoy the episode, but because other people seemed to know more about those characters, some people felt like they were left out of the loop.

If those people had been posting back in the BTAS days, they would have complained at the end of "Off Balance" that they didn't know who Ra' al Ghul was, or at the end of "Tools of the Trade" that they didn't know who Darkseid was.

Whew.

End rant.

DerekPowers

02-04-2005, 04:25 PM

Bort! Man, awesome to see you still around! I was just talking to Kenshin the other night--I don't often see him around, but we keep in minimal contact, too. I could swear that there was a Derek Powers back in the day, though. Or maybe someone named Blight? They're the same character, so I could be confusing the two. But there was a Powers fan back then, I know that much. Thanks for posting, I'm glad to recognize another name. I WAS around back then, and i'm NOT 15. :D

There was another poster named Blight too, but he hasnt been around lately. I believe at the time HE may have been like 15, so that could be where the confusion is at.

Anyway Drizzt, here's an interesting point. I too feel that kid reaction is a good way to grasp how a series is doing. I worked as a camp counselor over the summer, and this was when JLU first started airing. I'd always ask them which show was better, JL or JLU, and they almost always said JLU. I'd ask why, and they'd say because there are more heros. I'd ofcourse disagree, but they'd still never agree with me, and even tended to criticize the original JL show. So who knows.

In theory all good art, and i do consider quality cartoons 'art', should be able to touch people of all ages. Good art has no age boundaries. The way i loved BTAS when i was a little kid, I enjoy it now. I liked all the following series for the same reasons i liked the original btas. I liked season 2 of JL the same way, even though i was much older. I find i still like cartoons, and they are USUALLY the same ones that most kids like, like PPG, Samurai Jack, JL, JLU, Fosters, etc. I loved the new Masters of the Univese show. And if you'll notice, good cartoons usually have a following of both kids and adults. They, in theory, have no real boundaries. If its bad, then both kids and adults will react the same way to the same bad elements in it. And that is how i'm responding to JLU. And, despite what my camp kids said over the summer, i dont think JLU is as good as JL.

But i've said this before, but I'll restate it. I think part of the reason my camp kids liked JLU better, as they stated, was because there are more heros. And that makes sense. If you LOOK at JLU, it is really quite stunning, ESPECIALLY the shots with a crap load of heros in them. EVERYONE, it seems, responds to bright colors and simple shapes, especially kids (look at childrens books, especially the really young ones). One a purely visual level, JLU is the most like abstract art, imo, because you are bombarded with simple shapes and bold colors, or, as we know them, Bruce Timm's designs. It opperates on a really primal level, i think, and i as much as i have a problem with the writing and characterizations on the show, i am still dumb-founded about how much i like those shots. It just works in a really weird way that i've yet to nail down. It has somethng to do with the initial response one has to shapes and colors, along with the mythology involved with 'comic book' superheros. Taking the often 'corny' designs of b-list heros, and making them look good, from a basic color and form pespective, allowing the viewer to participate in making them look cool. I dont know, i'm rambling, but like i've said, its something i ponder when i watch the show, and i'll nail it down eventually.

Sooooo, thats not to say a show can be caried by those visuals. I think the weak story elements and weak dialogue is enough to make people, kids especially, loose interest mid-way through and episode, despite the visuals. The visuals may be just enough, though, to sell crap loads of re-painted toys. But imagine if they utalized JLU to it's fullest potential, oh just imagine. Imagine if the story and writing and dialogue were BTAS or STAS quality. Imagine if it tailored itself to those beautifull compositions of colorful heros, creating new and interesting shots rooted in stories we were truely invested in, rather than just sticking them in the backgrounds of shallow stories, oh just imagine. And thats why i'm hopefull. And we'll find out soon enough....

EDIT:

Oh, i forgot to mention light. I think that the designs and colorfull compositions in JLU are powerfull, visually, not just because of color and form, but light as well. If you'll notice, pretty much ALL the heros (and villians for that matter) on JLU have some kind of SHINE to them. All of them. Not only do they have a 'shine', but they all have lights and darks. They have SHADOWS or shaded areas defining thier forms. Bruce Timm's design theory seems to have shine and shadow built into it inherently. And shiny areas and shaded areas all indicate LIGHTING in the situation. Light plays an important part in the designs. And we, as humans, seem to respond VERY strongly to light, in art and life. Artists, from Vermeer to Edward Hopper, from Suerat to Alex Katz, all utalize light in very effective ways, and it's a big reason why people respond so much to their work, ESPECIALLY Vermeer, the master of light. Notice how so many people LOVE impressionist art? Its all about color and light.

We also respond to light in everyday life. I have a theory that it's becaue of the sun and the sun is vital to all life processes on earth. Ever wonder why people like gold so much (besides it being worth a lot)? I have a theory that it's because it reminded ancient people of the sun. Notice how there are so many sun gods and sun symbolizom in mythology and art and religion? I think people have a connection to the sun, and when things mimick the sun, they really respond to it. PEOPLE LIKE SHINEY OBJECTS!!

Notice how you or people you are with respond to neon lights or lighted signs next time you see one. Throw bold colors on top of it and they respond even more. AND throw bold forms on top of that, like simple human shapes, and they really respond. And that, in a nut shell, imo, is what is unique about JLU and is why i feel it has the most potential energy of any Timmverse how. It is all about color, light, and form.

anyway, yeah, i can REALLY go off, and i hope what i said makes any kind of sense. But yea, Drizzt, I was around back then ;), and im fairly sure i remember you. peace.

witness

02-04-2005, 04:38 PM

Wow. After reading all of these wonderful posts, I'm finally understanding what I think of JLU. My response to your question would be a no. I don't think all of the "fanservice" is what the problem with JLU is.

My perspective is mainly from the DCAU, but I have a few trade comics (Rock of Ages, Technis Imperative, D.C. 1 Million, Underworld Unleashed) so I can get a more comprehensive feel than someone who is just coming from the point of I'm not a comic fan.

I personally think that what is difficult for this show is that they have never tried this kind of format before. They have never had to focus on a whole lot of characters at once. JL's first season was sketchy. There were very good episodes and some that weren't so good. The second season was better. Now they've had to go backwards sort of. They've returned to a 22 minute format. This is the reason that they cannot give as much focus to so many different characters. They're trying to relearn how to do a good job of telling a story. Once again, this season is a little rough. (I personally have enjoyed most of this season.) Some of the episodes have felt rushed. They do have their work cut out for them.

However, I'm really not happy about OAFT 2, because it just seemed like a total mess. I guess it should have just had another 22 minutes to flesh it out a little more. I didn't tape it, so I don't know when I'll be able to watch it again. I am a big fan of Batman Beyond, and came in with high expectations. It just felt a little flat to me, that's all. After reading some posts at the official talkback, I've come to understand the episode a little more. I just didn't like it as much as I could have. I also really wonder if this episode, they were thumbing their noses at the suits of WB for making them have to create BB in the first place.

I'm sure that next season will be better than this one. Hopefully, the episodes won't feel as rushed, and they won't have any stories that look like the aftermath of any natural disaster either. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Oh, by the way, Drizzit, yes there once was a poster named Blight as well as Derekpowers. Don't know if he/she is still around or not.

Drizzt2218

02-04-2005, 08:18 PM

DP and Witness: Great posts! I can agree about the idea that perhaps these first 13 episodes have been so rough/uneven because these guys are trying to find their footing again, and certainly, JLU isn't the easiest show to write/craft. Like most series, there are episodes that have done a great job and others that have been some of the worst stories told in the Timmverse, and I think that's part of the problem; there is a real uneven quality not seen since the early days of B:TAS. There's nothing mediocre about JLU, it's either really great or really horrible. Who could argue that "Wake The Dead" was a great episode, for instance? Also, I love the designs, but don't forget to credit the brilliant James Tucker with his share of the work alongside Bruce Timm. I would never try to take away from all the hard work put into the show by these creators, but I can't help but feel, and I'm glad I'm not the only here who feels this way, that there is room for improvement in the series. I am very much looking forward to the next 13 episodes, and I do think we'll see a more even quality emerge within episodes 14-26.

--Larry

raynos

02-05-2005, 02:46 AM

Taking the often 'corny' designs of b-list heros, and making them look good, from a basic color and form pespective, allowing the viewer to participate in making them look cool.Yes, I really like the character designs this season. They are cool.

I wasn't sold on the new format of JLU, but I guess it's OK. At least now, I'd love to see some episodes on the new heroes. I'm actually considering this season as easing into the new style for season 4, which looks good. Yum.

b.t.

02-08-2005, 11:59 PM

one point to consider:

going all the way back to the justice society comics in the '40's, the "superhero-team" concept has always been the very definition of "fan-service"....having all your favorite heroes teamed-up in one supergroup is the ultimate example of "wouldn't it be cool if...."

so, featuring all those extra heroes and nifty cameos, whether they're episode-centered spotlight appearances or "red-shirt" wallpaper walk-ons, is just an extension of that same basic premise...

saying JLU is guilty of blatant fan-service is therefore kinda redundant, seems to me...

as for BATMAN BEYOND, though it was in part a continuation of BTAS and TNBA, the series centered on a brand new character (terry), therefore we felt it was very important to give him his own group of "rogues gallery" villains, and not just have him fight bruce wayne's old ones....so yes, we did avoid taking the easy "fan-service" way out there....however, having barbara grow up to be the new "commissioner gordon" was a TOTAL "fan-service" bit, but it felt like the logical thing to do...it gave terry his own unique "hero/cop" dynamic, distinctly different than bruce and jim gordon's, and also allowed us to utilise a pre-existing supporting character from BTAS in a fresh role....

just my two cents....

sKorpia

02-09-2005, 02:00 AM

Sue

02-09-2005, 02:11 AM

Come to think of it, these "fan service" complaints are rather strange. If JLU really did cater to the fans' every wish, why complain? As for as cameos and in-jokes go, I don't see any harm in it.

efumf

02-09-2005, 02:36 AM

Why is it whenever a pointless, silly thread like this is made just so trolls can crap on JLU, it stays open for days, but when a negative thread is made about "The Batman", it's closed instantly?

I'm not going to read all this thread because my IQ is low enough as it is after plowing through Supremus's post history ;) - But you "fans" need to get over yourselves. If you don't read the comics, then you're going to miss some in-jokes when watching a superhero show - it's inevitable. So either open yourself up to another creative medium (one that JLU relies on as source material, I might add) or just accept that you're ignorant and enjoy all the colourful heroes in the background as just that. You don't need to know every facet of every character to enjoy an episode of JLU. In fact, this show appeals to children perhaps better than any DCAU show, and everyone knows kids don't read comics. So I guess the creators are doing something right.

Road to Gotham

02-09-2005, 02:50 AM

I love JLU. It's a FUN way to spend a half-hour.

All the cool cameos of 2nd and 3rd stringers. I love those guys & gals.

Maybe the story lines don't always make sense.
But, So What!
Relax, put your feet up. Have some munchies and let your imagination run wild
with all these colorful characters.

:D

Revelator

02-09-2005, 03:37 AM

Knight

02-09-2005, 07:18 AM

Love the "fan service" you will get no complaints from me. Keep it coming.

Casey Mack

02-09-2005, 07:27 AM

This buy far the dumbest topic to ever come up. I assumed we were all fans of JLU, and if people have problems with 30 mins episodes. Then look around people, how man mins do other animated shows have. Gargoyles,BTAS,STAS, and nearly every other animated show that was great, was 30 mins. You people act like youve never seen a 30 min super hero CARTOON SHOW.....peace.
________
Kitchen Measures (http://kitchenmeasures.com/)

El Zorro

02-09-2005, 10:01 AM

The only people who complain about fan service are fans angry that other fans besides themselves are being serviced. As far as I'm concerned they can whine into perpetuity: JL season one was legitmately whine-worthy, but the show has been getting better ever since.
Sorry, but that's just not true. I, for one, have issues with some of the "fan service" in JLU, but it has nothing to do with me jealously wanting different "fan service." These fan-momets are not a bad thing in and of themselves, its just that when they're done too much they can be detrimental to the stories being told (or not told). When I tune in to JL(U) I want to see an entertaining story. I don't tune in to see how many character cameos the creators can cram into 30 minutes or how many comic stories can be referenced. The cameos and references are nice, and add some spice to things. But its when these fan-moments become destracting and become more important than the story that we have a problem. For the most part I don't think JLU has been "ruined" by the fan-moments, BT and co seem to be adept at being able to tell good stories and spice them up for the fans. However, the first season of JLU has seen the creators become more self-indulgant in these matters than they've ever been in previous DCAU shows & that could easily snowball and seriously damage the show.

I really don't see why some here are getting so hostile. Why is it wrong to offer constructive criticism?

efumf

02-09-2005, 10:32 AM

Because criticising the creators of a show for pleasing the fans is frigging pathetic. This is truly the most idiotic thread I've ever seen - there's nothing "constructive" about it.

El Zorro

02-09-2005, 10:51 AM

Because criticising the creators of a show for pleasing the fans is frigging pathetic. This is truly the most idiotic thread I've ever seen - there's nothing "constructive" about it.
"Never give the fans what they think they want." - Stan Lee

Supremus

02-09-2005, 11:11 AM

"Never give the fans what they think they want." - Stan LeeYeah, but..."Let's make a cartoon with Pamela Anderson as a suprhero." - Stan Lee.

Hero Supreme

02-09-2005, 11:34 AM

Yeah, but..."Let's make a cartoon with Pamela Anderson as a suprhero." - Stan Lee.
to be fair, i never thought i wanted that.

El Zorro

02-09-2005, 11:52 AM

Yeah, but..."Let's make a cartoon with Pamela Anderson as a suprhero." - Stan Lee.
Yes, because *that* is representative of Stan's entire career.

SuperChicken

02-09-2005, 12:21 PM

Yes, because *that* is representative of Stan's entire career.

Maybe not -- but the guy is making a cartoon with Ringo Starr as a superhero, so he's certainly scaring me lately.

bat313

02-09-2005, 03:21 PM

Because criticising the creators of a show for pleasing the fans is frigging pathetic. This is truly the most idiotic thread I've ever seen - there's nothing "constructive" about it.
Start at the beggening and READ the comments in this thread b4 you make another ingnorant comment.

bat313

Supremus

02-09-2005, 03:39 PM

Yes, because *that* is representative of Stan's entire career.Do you think his other quote was?

efumf

02-09-2005, 06:45 PM

Start at the beggening and READ the comments in this thread b4 you make another ingnorant comment.

bat313 What makes you think I didn't? I read more than enough. It was quite painful. :sweat:

Much like your spelling. ;)

And your understanding of the basic concept of ignorance seems to be misguided - Nothing I've said in this thread was ignorant in any way, shape or form. When a writer adapts something for screen, he needs to respect the original source material, its creators and its fans. Why is that so hard to understand? Would you prefer if JLU was renamed "Ultra Law Men of Outer Space" and featured "Batdude", "Superteen" and "Zat the witch"? Perhaps then you wouldn't feel like you're missing anything?

If anything, JLU will convince more people to pick up a comic (or at the very least, the DC Encyclopedia) so I applaud the creators for not going into too much detail about every character that appears on screen. Way to go!

mahoney

02-09-2005, 07:44 PM

And your understanding of the basic concept of ignorance seems to be misguided - Nothing I've said in this thread was ignorant in any way, shape or form. When a writer adapts something for screen, he needs to respect the original source material, its creators and its fans. Why is that so hard to understand? Would you prefer if JLU was renamed "Ultra Law Men of Outer Space" and featured "Batdude", "Superteen" and "Zat the witch"? Perhaps then you wouldn't feel like you're missing anything?But this misses the point of what I, at least, was saying. I can't speak for others who critique the comic-fan-specific moments, but for myself, it's not that I feel like I'm missing anything, it's that I don't *know* that I'm missing anything, and all I *do* know is what I see on the screen, and that the characters appear to me incredibly two-dimensional. According to speculation in this thread, it sounds like characterization is left by the wayside because either 1) there is not enough time in each short episode to do them justice or 2) it's assumed the viewer knows enough about the character from the comics.

Assuming either of those hypotheses is true, if the fan base should *only* be comic fans, these are not flaws at all, obviously. But one of the things successful movies like X-Men and Spider-man, and even movies like Daredevil and Hellboy, did was to reach out to all audiences, comic fans and non-comic fans. I could go to those movies and be given enough information about the characters to make them meaningful to me, allowing me to enjoy the movie even though I wasn't a comic fan. And from what I've heard, comic fans could go to those movies and see elements of their comics come to life. Happiness all around, right?

My criticism of this season of JLU is that the new characters being introduced in each episode aren't given enough characterization to make them meaningful to me, to the point that unless an upcoming episode looks like it will focus on a character who has already been fleshed out for me in the two seasons of JL, I don't necessarily care if I catch the ep. I generally remember to record it, but I'm not terribly hyped to watch it, and when I do, I tend to feel dissatisfied.

So should I stop watching, because the show is designed only for fans of the comics? I'm *not* going to go out and read comics. With very few exceptions, I don't enjoy comics. I'm not going to go out and read them just so I know who's who on JLU. I didn't have to do that for JL - the characters were given enough screen time over the two seasons to make me care about them. This is why I consider the lack of characterization in JLU a valid point to critique, from a non-comic fan point of view. I'll still watch, for a while at least, because the animation is for the most part really fantastic, because I love the universe that was created in JL, and because the more mature themes are a nice change from what I generally see in cartoons. But I'm kind of a character-oriented type of person - I like character over action, even character over plot at times. So I don't know how long I would continue watching if the characters continued to be so lacking in dimension for me.

This isn't a slam, either. I'm not trying to dictate how the show should be written. But if the show is written for comic fans, and someone tries to explain why this should satisfy all viewers, including non-comic fans, to me that sounds like an opportunity for discussion. I won't change the way the show is written, but I do like to discuss.

Captain C

02-09-2005, 08:03 PM

Yeah, now that you mentioned it, they could work more on plots and action than where they can fit in a cameo.

Revelator

02-09-2005, 11:02 PM

[QUOTED: El Zorro]
Sorry, but that's just not true.

I interpret fan service literally, as pleasing the fans. Some aren't pleased that others are, and believe pleasing those people will somehow weaken the show. No doubt they'd prefer to be pleased instead.

These fan-momets are not a bad thing in and of themselves, its just that when they're done too much they can be detrimental to the stories being told (or not told).

If the stories were just an excuse to showcase cameos I'd understand I'd
complain, but no episode has truly been so. The cameos are background elements that take up hardly any time. And an episode like "Dark Heart" is a procedural meant to showcase the league working as a unit. Perhaps I'm just not the sort of person to get distracted by brief cameos and neat bits of spectacle, especially since the vast bulk of the episodes have focused on small 3-4 person teams.
As for referencing old comics, every Timm series has done so. Considering that JLU is far more tightly written and plotted than the often inflated two series that followed it, all I can say is that such "self-indulgence" should continue.

I really don't see why some here are getting so hostile. Why is it wrong to offer constructive criticism?

Because many would view it as baseless complaint. I'm betting you're several thousand times more familiar with the comics than I am, so why do I and many other people with a similiar lack of knowledge enjoy the show? Why are the ratings better than ever? As for another poster's complaint on characterization, let me say this: Green Arrow, the Atom, Black canary, the Question, Booster Gold, and Vixen have all emerged with personalities as distinct as the core seven (despite two seasons of developing that group, though very little or very clumsy character development occurred during season one, and of the big seven, only Batman is more than a filled-out type), and impossible to confuse with each other. If one can't get excited about an upcoming episode unless will focus on a character featured in the two seasons of JL, that's a personal problem I'm glad I don't share. I've looked forward more to episodes featuring new characters far more than ones with the basic seven. I enjoy learning about them and seeing them in action, and I know I'm not the only one. The only failed attempt at introducing new heroes has been "Hawk and Dove," and who knows, with JLU's current success rate perhaps we'll be made to care about them one day.

El Zorro

02-10-2005, 12:14 AM

Revelator,

Thank you for the well thought out reply. You make some very good points, some of which I hadn't taken into consideration before. Its always great to get a different perspective on things such as this. Thank you.

Revelator

02-10-2005, 01:36 AM

Revelator,
Thank you for the well thought out reply.
Thank you for your sarcasm. I'm deciding what to do with it.

El Zorro

02-10-2005, 01:38 AM

Thank you for your sarcasm. I'm deciding what to do with it.
I wasn't being sarcastic, I meant what I said.

Revelator

02-10-2005, 01:51 AM

I wasn't being sarcastic, I meant what I said.
In that case I offer my sincere apologies for so badly misconstruing your post. I can be a bit of a paranoid ass sometimes. Well, more like all the time....

DerekPowers

02-10-2005, 02:00 AM

DP, I agree with you on one thing. What really hampers JLU has mostly been the writing for me. Not just the dialogue. The way that the story is laid out, the storyboarding, the camera work (or lack therof) all could use some work. There haven't been very many episodes that actually felt like they fit into a 22-minute span of time. It's either a 5-minute story that's stretched or a 32-minute story that's compressed. Each comes with its own host of resulting plot issues. Some reveals or story elements could have been more effectively shot, heightening tension and suspicion instead of making the viewer wonder, "Erm, am I supposed to be getting something here?" The fight scenes, though uneven, have shown a bit of "mixing it up" with the types of camera shots and effects used.

On the issue of light, however, I have to disagree. I mourn the loss of change in lighting. Whenever I think of JLU, it's all very shiny -- plastic-looking. It reminds me of Onegai Teacher, where everyone has that unnatural sheen to them. I miss shadows on the face, indicating contours. I miss detail. I miss contrast! Even the nighttime is bright in JLU. Maybe it's just personal preference. It's just . . . so plastic feeling.

I tune in to see if anything's changed. There've been improvements. For the life of me though, nothing seems to stick with JLU or JL. For the heroes I know, I get that giddy "eek!" moment when I see Black Canary or Hal Jordan (and I'm not much of a DC comic fan either), but those moments don't make up for what could be improved in presentation. I just end up walking away with a "meh" feeling.
I agree with most of what you said (except the light part ofcourse), BUT the shadows are still on the faces in JLU, defining the contours. that is something i loved about btas, tnba, stas, and bb, and it remains in JLU. it may not be as apparent as in, say, tnba, but theyre still there.

To go back to the whole color thing, one color element i HATE on JLU, and JL for that matter, is Superman's blue. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, b. t., change his blue, or atleast change his night-time blue. It is WAY too purple. I know it depends on the tv your watching on, but it still falls more on the purple side than the STAS night-time blue did, which ALWAYS appears dark blue, no matter what screen you watch it on. Seriously, purple superman has got to go, he just is so much weaker in that shade. Visually, imo, its not as bold, and he winds getting up-staged by the other heros, and appears much weak, since purple doesnt resonate w/ the eye the way blue does (i'm not sure of the science behind it, but it has to do w/ the wave-lengths of the colors, and blue is able to be picked up by the eye much easier than purple. Also, on an even more basic level, blue is a primary color, which is just louder and bolder). This is all just my opinion, btw, and I'm sure others will disagree with me, especially if you have a newer tv than i do ;).

So, anyway, sKorpia, great post on the writing of JLU. I agree 100% on that topic. but season 2 is off to a good start, and toaft part 2, imo, was GREAT (by JLU standards OFCOURSE), so maybe the worst is behind us. peace.

efumf

02-10-2005, 09:56 AM

Revelator, you took the words right out of my mouth - There's nothing wrong with the characterisation in this show. Just look at the most recent episode - it featured 3 characters - Green Arrow, Black Canary and Wildcat. In 20 minutes, they not only managed to give us what very well could be the best action scenes in the history of the DCAU, but they also made us fall in love with each of these characters and their relationships with eachother. Who doesn't want to see more of Arrow and Canary's romance? Who didn't feel for Wildcat and his unique addiction? His overcompensating for not having superpowers? Who couldn't feel Canary's love for him as a father figure?

And not only that, but we learned that Arrow sold his company and pocketed billions, that Wildcat trained a lot of JLUers, a Batman reference got thrown in, and we were treated with some cool eye-candy in the form of supervillain cameos in the ring. Did these cameos distract at all from the episode?

So again, this thread is whiny, redundant and generally nonsensical.

Drizzt2218

02-10-2005, 02:45 PM

You know, I have to say it's funny how anyone offering an actual critique of the elements they don't like/problems they've had with the overall series has posted with thoughtful, intelligent, and above all else, very civil discussion. And yet a lot of people "defending" the show (defending it from what? We're all fans here. We all watch the show each weekend. And we all have episodes that we've loved. I don't see a single post saying "Bruce Timm suckz! JLU is crap!!" around here.) seem to feel the need to be rude, insulting, and downright hostile. As if to be a fan, one cannot be critical of the series.

And yes, I thought "The Cat and the Canary" was excellent.

It was also everything we've talked about here on this thread. The plot was simple enough, the cast was small, the emphasis was on the characterization, the villain had motive...it was the sort of mini movie masterpiece that has come to define the work Mr. Timm and his amazing crew have done in the past, and the reason we are all fans to begin with.

There's no reason the 50+ other characters can't receive the same treatment on this show. There's a tremendous opportunity with JLU to give a definitive take on the DC Universe in the same way they offered definitive versions of Batman, Superman, and a future vision of the Dark Knight's world that rivals, if not outright surpasses, classics such as "The Dark Knight Returns." The way I see it, if every character got the same treatment as Wildcat, Green Arrow and co. did, the storytelling would be limitless. How about a story using the JSA members - Stargirl, Atom Smasher, Mr. Terrific? Or the Justice League International team - Booster, Elongated Man, Fire & Ice? The Seven Soldiers of Victory -- we've already seen Shining Knight and Vigilante in the background. JLU seems, from the very concept, to be about expanding the animated universe. But if most of these characters never even speak, how does that do justice to the idea of a League with an unlimited number of heroes?

JLU introduced an interesting concept and a great way to spotlight the lesser characters of the DCU and give them the same treatment that Mr. Timm always has: Take what works for a character, get rid of what doesn't, and expand from there. It's led to versions of these characters that are often times better than any version seen in the comics, and with one-off spotlights on many of these new characters, there'd be a real chance to do the same for them.

My complaint about "fan service" isn't that we have all these characters running around, it's that we have all these characters running around and they contribute nothing to the stories being told.

JLU's first season spent way too much time with the established characters, and relegated the very concept of this new show, as introduced in "Initiation," to mainly a bunch of characters sitting in the background who are called in during a "big" story and then conveniently forgotten about when it doesn't suit the story. An "Atom" spotlight spent far too much time on the larger action (wherein we had a bunch of characters firing energy bolts and swinging blades and whatever else they did -- but not one of them spoke a word or showed any personality whatsoever), and we only got a glimpse of who The Atom is. Zatanna had a lot more characterization and backstory in her B:TAS appearance than she did in her JLU appearance, where she was overshadowed by the need to save WonderPig. Hawk & Dove were thrust into a Wonder Woman story - which, by the way, given the threat of warfare don't you think more JLU members would have been called in?

That same critique can be leveled against Wake The Dead, too. Grundy's beating on Superman, and yet only a few characters show up to help? All it would take is a brief explaination, instead of not addressing the issue altogether. Kids Stuff was fun -- but if you have to save the world, why wouldn't you round up a larger cast? The very concept of the show is ignored when it doesn't suit the story being told. Episodes like "Initiation," "Fearful Symmetry" and "The Cat and the Canary" each explained why we didn't see a larger cast - the rest of the JLU couldn't be reached, and in the latter two, a personal problem kept the characters from reaching out for more help.

Anyway, those're just my 2 cents on the matter. Sorry to write out such another long post.

--Larry

batmanbeyond13

02-10-2005, 05:02 PM

http://futpt2-04 I don't think all those characters are ruinig the show. It's great as it is. But I think, as much as I love the show, that this conspiracy story line will and may end this show. There's no way of topping this storyline.

Casey Mack

02-10-2005, 05:40 PM

Bruce Timm once sent a truckload of pudding pies to my house. I resent him because now I'm fat.
:sad: anyway Fonebone, am i the only one who thinks "The dark Knights returns" sucked really bad. i mean its a nice story,but its just dumb. i don't want to go into why its overrated, but i think some people will understand where im comeing from.
________
Corvette stingray (concept car) (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Corvette_Stingray_(Concept_car))

SuperChicken

02-10-2005, 06:03 PM

And yet a lot of people "defending" the show .....seem to feel the need to be rude, insulting, and downright hostile. As if to be a fan, one cannot be critical of the series.

Take this for what it is, but I kinda resent the broad stroke you're painting us 'defenders' with. I feel as though I have tried, in the few times I have posted, to keep it civil and acknowledge that my opinion is not the only one and that there is rarely a right or wrong.

Sure there are some who have been a little harsh - but aren't there always?

Overall, I feel that most of the people on BOTH sides have done the same. So I guess I just don't get where you're coming from.

Anywho -- I do agree with the point you made that the mere presence of so many characters does not prevent the show from doing solid characterizations and also that with so many characters, there is much material to be mined. As I have stated previously in another thread, the way you use the tools are what's important, not the tools themselves. Even with one character, ths show could have problems. And even with 50 characters, they can have a great show. It's all in how they use what they have.

First season was a little inconsistant, but the second appears to be off to a roaring start.

Revelator

02-10-2005, 09:08 PM

JLU seems, from the very concept, to be about expanding the animated universe. But if most of these characters never even speak, how does that do justice to the idea of a League with an unlimited number of heroes?

If you have 50+ members of the league, chances are that by the time everyone gets significant speaking roles you'll be on season four, which we'll hopefully reach. Having a large bank of characters means precisely that: having a bank. You don't have to withdraw all your cash at once, nor your heroes.

JLU's first season spent way too much time with the established characters...

I feel sorry for the creators, who are in lose-lose territory no matter how hard they try. When JLU came on tons of people were whining about having to sit through adventures about "obscure" or "3rd rate heroes." When the show switches gears people whine about the core seven being overused.

An "Atom" spotlight spent far too much time on the larger action (wherein we had a bunch of characters firing energy bolts and swinging blades and whatever else they did -- but not one of them spoke a word or showed any personality whatsoever)

"Dark Heart" was a procedural--the only one of the season--that focused on the League working as a large unit, with Atom simply working on a more prominent scale, along with the big three. Frankly, the episode would have been improved in no way had Shining Knight or Vigilante spoke or had spent time displaying their personalities. (What counts is that their scenes together provided kick-ass visuals.) Dark Heart was action-oriented procedural that's heavy on the spectacle. If some people are incapable of enjoying the episode for what it is, they should be thankful it's not the standard template for a League episode, though "The Return" is slightly similar.

and we only got a glimpse of who The Atom is

He's brilliant college professor who can shrink himself--that's who he is and all we needed to know. Beyond that, what really counted was that we see he had a distinct personality and character, and we saw that. He's a self-drepecating man with a professor's oddball sense of humor, a man of science capable of being so engrossed in his love of the subject that he can be slightly oblivious to the bigger picture. Beyond that he's resourceful and chatty with a fine sense of obligation.

Zatanna had a lot more characterization and backstory in her B:TAS appearance than she did in her JLU appearance, where she was overshadowed by the need to save WonderPig.

And why shouldn't she be? There wasn't time for a lengthy flashback, which was the sole highlight of "Zatanna," an episode which established her character at the expense of a compelling plot or villain. I don't see what else needed to be added to Zatanna's characterization either--she's nowhere as kittenish as she was in BTAS, and that's a good thing.

Hawk & Dove were thrust into a Wonder Woman story

I'm still waiting for you to cite the episode that demonstrates how the concept of the show has been dumbed down to mainly a bunch of characters sitting in the background who are called in during a "big" story and then conveniently forgotten about. Because Hawk & Dove, dramatic failure it may have been, as an episode belonged just as much to the brothers as Diana. And if you're going to cite TGSNT, need I say that the episode featured Booster Gold, and all those JLU members were deliberate background material used to emphasize the threat of Mordru in what was a side story?

All it would take is a brief explaination, instead of not addressing the issue altogether.

Three leaguers went up against a Grundy who they presumed far less powerful than he really was, and were eventually joined by three other leaguers. By the time they might have felt the need for more, Grundy was already dead. Why waste precious dramatic time on an explanation so one viewer can nitpick? (You're the first one to pick on the episode for that reason.)

Kids Stuff was fun -- but if you have to save the world, why wouldn't you round up a larger cast?

Because four JLU members happened to be in one time and place when Morgana needed them. We were fortunately spared scenes of Morgana traveling around the alternate dimension trying to locate other leaguers. And the episode would have been overcrowded with just a few other characters.
You know, this niggling line of argument could just as easily be applied to FTMWHE and beyond. The facts are that unless the show is doing a procedural, a multi-parter or needs to emphasize the threat of a villain, as in "The Return," it's best off sticking to a core group of 3 to 4 heroes, with the occasional spotlight on one, even if there's an occasional incongruity. Calling for more heroes when they aren't dramatically justified would be what actually leads to superfluous heroes running around the place and contributing nothing. There's a limit to the amount of characters one can offer in depth within 22 minutes.

I have to say it's funny how anyone offering an actual critique of the elements they don't like/problems they've had with the overall series has posted with thoughtful, intelligent, and above all else, very civil discussion. And yet a lot of people "defending" the show seem to feel the need to be rude, insulting, and downright hostile. As if to be a fan, one cannot be critical of the series.

Oh God, now comes the martyr act... Why don't you stop genteely patting yourself on the back and take note that what you and others have offered is not criticism but nit-pick swapping, and that your supposed criticisms strike some folks as unjustified, misguided and about as cogent as an offer to buy the Brooklyn Bridge? I see little point in treating criticism that one feels has little worth with tea-party manners. If you don't feel you're being treated the way you should, tough.

DerekPowers

02-10-2005, 10:21 PM

My complaint about "fan service" isn't that we have all these characters running around, it's that we have all these characters running around and they contribute nothing to the stories being told.

That same critique can be leveled against Wake The Dead, too. Grundy's beating on Superman, and yet only a few characters show up to help? All it would take is a brief explaination, instead of not addressing the issue altogether. Kids Stuff was fun -- but if you have to save the world, why wouldn't you round up a larger cast? The very concept of the show is ignored when it doesn't suit the story being told. Episodes like "Initiation," "Fearful Symmetry" and "The Cat and the Canary" each explained why we didn't see a larger cast - the rest of the JLU couldn't be reached, and in the latter two, a personal problem kept the characters from reaching out for more help.

--Larry
I agree COMPLETELY (but in "Wake the Dead" i didnt think the 'not calling in more heros' was a problem. the mercy killing, THAT was a problem). You've basically just stated the main reasons why i've been so let down by JLU season 1. And these same reasons are why "For the Man Who Has Everything" bugged me so much. They establish 'rules' to this show, laid out in 'Initiation', then COMPLETELY ignore them when they dont feel like actually taking the time to write a well-thought out story. It just makes you take the show less seriously, period. It makes it all less believable and deminishes any investment you might have had in the plot to begin with.

Again, Drizzt, i agree. Very clearly stated and to the point, which i find i have trouble doing sometimes, so i'll just agree. peace.

b.t.

02-10-2005, 11:12 PM

That same critique can be leveled against Wake The Dead, too. Grundy's beating on Superman, and yet only a few characters show up to help? All it would take is a brief explaination, instead of not addressing the issue altogether. Kids Stuff was fun -- but if you have to save the world, why wouldn't you round up a larger cast? The very concept of the show is ignored when it doesn't suit the story being told. Episodes like "Initiation," "Fearful Symmetry" and "The Cat and the Canary" each explained why we didn't see a larger cast - the rest of the JLU couldn't be reached, and in the latter two, a personal problem kept the characters from reaching out for more help.
--Larry

we figured it was pretty self-explanatory that the jlu has multiple missions happening simultaneously all over the planet...sometimes even OFF-planet....not only are reserve members not even AVAILABLE to be called in sometimes, because they're already occupied (except in the dreaded "omega level" emergency situations), but also, dramatically, we really wanted to restrict the usage of our guys calling for back-up too often, as it kinda punks them out a bit...in every single situation that you've cited, it's significant that the jlu HAVE managed to triumph without calling for back-up....so, honestly, i don't see it as a problem...it's just possible you're over-thinking it a bit....

another thing:if we had to stop and explain every time why our guys don't call for back-up, it would just slow down the show unnecessarily...seems like unnecessary exposition to me...i'd rather use those precious few seconds of screen time to do something ENTERTAINING...

i'm kinda confused: you seem to be criticizing us for not having the characters call for back-up more often....but i thought you didn't LIKE it when we've had armies of "red-shirt" superheroes showing up to kick characterization-free ass? revelator's absolutely right about one thing: no matter what we do, we can't win....

Maxie Zeus

02-10-2005, 11:13 PM

JLU's first season spent way too much time with the established characters...

I feel sorry for the creators, who are in lose-lose territory no matter how hard they try. When JLU came on tons of people were whining about having to sit through adventures about "obscure" or "3rd rate heroes." When the show switches gears people whine about the core seven being overused.

This is a solid, irrefutable point. The format of JLU gives the producers maximal freedom to do whatever they want. But everyone sees that, so every time they make a choice in a particular episode (whether it's going for intense, tightly focused drama ("The Cat and the Canary") or intense, over-the-top action ("The Once and Future Thing"), someone will ask "Why didn't they make [insert some other choice]." Uh, because they didn't want to do that now; maybe they'll do it with another episode.

EDIT:

i'm kinda confused: you seem to be criticizing us for not having the characters call for back-up more often....but i thought you didn't LIKE it when we've had armies of "red-shirt" superheroes showing up to kick characterization-free ass?

To give the devil his due ... I think Larry might be complaining that the presence/absence of extra JLers is, um, "too convenient." It's kind of like with the red shirts in Star Trek, who always are the ones getting eaten/shot/fatally loved up by the Space Gorgon, etc., while Kirk or Spock always manage to walk away. As a viewer, you know that the story requires it, but it sometimes gets a little funny. In JLU, when the story needs a lot of JLers around, the extras pop up. When it requires that the JL be short-handed, they don't.

Well, maybe. This kind of thing doesn't bother me, but I accept it as part of the genre, and I also accept what you say about the JL operating as small teams except in cases of clearly indicated omega situations (or whatever they're called) as in "The Return." That seemed pretty obvious to me, so I have to use my imagination to try to figure out why other viewers might be kind of irritated by the fluctuating numbers, and maybe I haven't got Larry right ...

b.t.

02-10-2005, 11:23 PM

The Master Con

02-10-2005, 11:40 PM

I believe the Cat and Canary is a perfect example of how the JLU should be played. I have always enjoyed the smaller scale events more than the epic battles. I feel that a storyline dealing three small time superheros working on missions that works on a personal level is more appealing than seeing a 40 superheros led by Superman/Batman against a massive enemy. I'd love in the future seeing the small timers going out on small missions, missions that could dwelve into the character's past history in a similar way to how so many of the BTAS worked out. Even if its only for one or two episodes we see the said characters spotlight, it adds a certain amount of connection between us and them when we see them fighting in the epic battles.

Jade_GL

02-10-2005, 11:51 PM

Coming to the thread late, it's the greenest girl in the room... JADE_GL!

Ok, just had to get that out of the way. I feel kind of lame for overlooking this thread for so long and not offering to add anything, since I do have some things to say about the matter.

I, for one, think that the format is fun, refreshing, and I don't think that the amount of heroes or the amount of so-called *fan moments* are detracting from the viewing experience. In fact, I quite enjoy the show, and I think it has been getting better with every episode. Sure, there have been some bumps along the way, but aren't there in every show on TV? I mean, I think CSI is genius, but they've had at least 4 stinkers that I can think of in the past 5 years on their show. Also, X-Files was brilliant TV, but they had their fair share of bad episodes. So, that's to be expected, especially when people's expectations are somewhat unrealistic.

I myself love the fan moments. I consider myself a huge comic book fan, but I was introduced to Batman and DC heroes through the animated continuity, not the comics. I came to those when I was in high school. I would watch BTAS every afternoon with my older brother, which is kind of funny, seeing as he was a middle/high schooler and I was 6 years younger. :) Anyway, I have very fond memories of the show, and I know that it made me like appreciate animation and, when I came to it, the comic books as well.

But BTAS had it's bad moments (Moon of the Wolf, I am looking squarely at YOU) and I think that much of my opinion of the show is colored by the pure nostalgia factor. I think nostalgia is what is making it hard for some people to look at JLU totally impartially.

But remove the baggage and what do you have? A fun show that is doing great. It has good ratings, a good fanbase, and it's continuing the DCAU legacy. It's brought us old and new heroes, dredged up interesting story threads from past shows, and tried to do something new and different with the entire thing. I find that new direction interesting and the creators were brave to try this type of show.

So what do they get for trying something new? Well, I think that people are way too critical of things that aren't even a factor in the overall composition of the show. Ok, so we get a few cameos in big fights scenes and they don't carefully introduce everyone. In a big fight, that's impossible and would just slow the action down to a crawl. When we do get a spotlight on a new character, some complain that said character isn't interesting enough, or that they wanted more of the original seven team members. Then, on the other hand, when you get an episode featuring only the original seven, there are complaints that no new people were used.

ARE WE ALL SCHIZOPHRENIC? Or am I just reading this wrong? :)

I think that the main thing is that we have to remember that it's a show, it's a cartoon, and it's supposed to be different from the same old, same old. I enjoy seeing new and different things, and I think that I would like these shows even if I didn't know who Wildcat and Vigilante were.

I say keep the fun coming. It's the best thing on Saturdays right now besides reruns of Antiques Roadshow....

I keeeeeeed, I keeeeeeed. :D

Kazuya

02-10-2005, 11:52 PM

<---FanBoy that luv's "fan moments"

konakazi

02-11-2005, 12:42 AM

The only people who complain about fan service are fans angry that other fans besides themselves are being serviced. As far as I'm concerned they can whine into perpetuity: JL season one was legitmately whine-worthy, but the show has been getting better ever since.
I whole heartedly agree. If there are moments that you think are escaping you, just keep watching! Heck, I didn't know who the cowboy on the pegasus was either but it's just fun to have some cavalry show up some times.

In "Once And Future", it was awesome to see Jonah Hex! His lines were great. Made me smile. And having the modded Jokers show up was amazing.

I agree with BT that the notion of a supergroup is in and of itself "fan service". I mean the basic notion of the show being "unlimited" and touching on heroes over the ages of DC is outstanding. How else would I ever be introduced to Vixen? Or get the cute dynamic of her and GL?

This show's small moments can often make me smile more than the CRASH BOOM moments and that's remarkable. :anime:

Drizzt2218

02-11-2005, 02:33 AM

first of all, i DON'T think this thread is pointless or insulting, i think it's a fair question....

but while it's true that some of the "defenders" have used language that's a bit strident perhaps, look at how you titled this thread....you yourself have said nice things about JLU, here and in other threads, so you obviously enjoy the show to a degree, yet "fan moments are RUINING jlu"...? the hyperbole blade cuts both ways :)....
You're right there. I may have been a tad...overdramatic in my phrasing. I'm a writer, it's what I do. ;) Seriously, I know I should have titled this thread something else, and for that, I'll offer my apologies. I've said it here and I'll say it again, without you guys I either wouldn't have chosen writing as a career, or I'd of given up on it a long time ago. I don't enjoy your work to "some degree," I owe your work just about everything.

SUPERCHICKEN (sorry for all caps, but I can't figure out how to quote more than one person...the board never used to be this complicated back in 1998/1999.) I didn't mean to paint a broad stroke there. It's why I avoided saying "everyone" in my statement...I've read a lot of very good comments from people about why they don't think these moments are detracting from JLU, too. I'm sorry about that. (Geeze, I'm all apologies here!)

MAXIE, you're right about that (though I resent being called the "devil"! You coulda least called me "Hades." ;D) Mr. Timm puts up a good argument, but as a writer, I don't think it's fair to believe the audience will "assume" anything in a story. See it, say it, show it. It's hard to just assume that all the other heroes are away when a story calls for it, and are hanging around the watchtower getting lunch when an "omega level" event happens. All it would take is a single line in a story..."Communications are jammed." "J'onn is assembling a team...it'll take time...time we don't have...." "I want to keep the others out of this." And so on.

It's also the idea of all these characters as just being "red shirts." Clearly they aren't red shirts...I rarely recall the red shirt characters getting recurring spotlight treatments on Star Trek. Each of these characters has an interesting personality and story waiting to be exploited on this show. One episode they may be in the background, but the next they may be the central character. My complaint (if you want to call it that), is that of these 50+ new characters, only a handful of them have spoken so far. I have no problem with all these heroes being on the series, in fact I think it's a neat idea, and a brilliant way to diversify/expand the DCU--almost like a "Showcase" in a way (for those who remember the comic.)

But it just seems like instead of giving these characters their due, most of them are being used as pointless cameos. Episodes like "The Cat and the Canary" "Initiation," "Fearful Symetry" and even mixing up the cast of "Wake The Dead" by tossing a newbie like Vixen into the mix, show me that all these new characters are just waiting to be exploited. "Ties That Bind" is going to be brilliant, too. These characters don't have to be pointless cameos...and if fans watching from the start feel a connection to them, "big" episodes like The Return and Dark Heart would have just that more tension to them when you're afraid a smaller character you've come to like may not make it out alive. Make us care for all these characters.

Oh, and thanks to everyone for making this such a lively discussion. I rarely post at message forums, but this has been a fun experience. I'm definitely going to keep posting here...I really owe James my thanks for urging me to contribute again. I hope we see this discussion continue, too. Take care, all.

--Larry

Teo

02-11-2005, 03:52 AM

I actually don't mind that fan service in the show, which suprises me because I thought my opinion was the opposite until I wrote this. There are a few inherent weaknesses to having such a vast membership to the JL but I've never been irritated solely for showing all the characters fighting or anything like that. I guess what I don't like is how regimented the JL became. The idea that there's this massive occupied space station with dozens of heroes stationed there kind of takes away from all them individually. If they were just being called in to help during bad situations it would be more natural than having them work shifts or live or whatever it is that they do at the Watchtower.

Because the JL seems so formal (Starfleet?) some of the mystery and autonomy of characters is hurt a little. Having many characters in the show is fine but it'd be better if they were treated more like freelancers who could help when needed and less like members of an army. Batman chewing out Booster Gold sound like a boss yelling at an employee--who the hell is Batman to talk down to another hero? (Yes, the concept was essential to the episode, and I respect it for that, but I still don't like the idea). In all the Superman crossovers the heroes were equal basically and there was no hierarchy where it was Superman plus a sidekick. As much as I love the Booster Gold episode (which I do!), I hated the way the JL appeared as an organization. It was better in Cat and Canary where it was a little more like being a card carrying member of the JL who still ran their own life. Maybe I just miss the old quiet Watchtower without a locker room, dozens of non-super employees, and a cafeteria (although I have to recheck that Static episode to be sure about the last one).

And things like the appearance of Hal Jordan, while doing nothing for the plot, just show how much b.t. and company love their audience. I mean, there was no other reason on Earth to do that other than making viewers happy. Accept the love, people!

---
Gunnm

Fone Bone

02-11-2005, 08:28 AM

b.t.

02-11-2005, 11:04 AM

I don't think it's fair to believe the audience will "assume" anything in a story. See it, say it, show it. It's hard to just assume that all the other heroes are away when a story calls for it, and are hanging around the watchtower getting lunch when an "omega level" event happens. All it would take is a single line in a story..."Communications are jammed." "J'onn is assembling a team...it'll take time...time we don't have...." "I want to keep the others out of this." And so on.

--Larry

we actually HAVE done that occasionally, when we felt it was absolutely necessary (again, i apologize if i can't point to a specific instance, it's probably in an episode that hasn't aired yet...the shows really ARE all blurring together for me at this point)...my point is, usually i think it ISN'T important to explain things like that, anymore than i think it's important to explain why joker didn't die in his previous appearance every time ("how did he survive being eaten by the 'laughing fish' shark?" or "i thought he died in that 'mad love' industrial smokestack!")....people were giving us hell about bizarro being on earth in "ultimatum", but for pete's sake, that was YEARS ago, he could have gotten off bizarro world any NUMBER of ways, and bottom line, it's not important to the present story to know how he did....if a bit of explanation can be tossed off succinctly and smoothly without interrupting the flow of the story, we'll do it if we feel it's necessary....

already we're seeing grumbles about granny goodness returning in "ties that bind"...."they better explain what happened after 'legacy', she got brain-fried during it!"....oops....gonna be a lot of public teeth-gnashing saturday night....

obviously, grundy's case in "wake the dead" was different...how and why he came back was VERY important to the story, in fact it WAS the story...and if we ever bring darkseid back, obviously we can't just have him show up without some kind of plausible explanation...

over the last 20 years or so, there's been an overall increasing trend in the various media to EXPLAIN things to the audience that really don't need to be explained...."where did the shadow get his mysterious powers? well, when he was a white drug lord in tibet yada yada yada"....and "how did conan get to be so strong? he pushed a giant grain mill for fifteen years!" (aaaarrrgggh! how i HATED that one)...i don't know if it's the influence of role-playing games or what, but i find it kinda irritating....obviously if something in a character's backstory is important to the story being told, then it needs to be spoken or dramatized, but if it isn't pertinent, fine, leave it out, get on with the story....

dwayne mcduffie once said that what we're doing is the "princess bride" school of storytelling, and i think that's really true...22 min. isn't a lot of time to tell a story, and i'll be the first to admit we've sometimes tried to pack too much story into too small a space....we do what we can....

konakazi

02-11-2005, 11:41 AM

we actually HAVE done that occasionally, when we felt it was absolutely necessary..22 min. isn't a lot of time to tell a story, and i'll be the first to admit we've sometimes tried to pack too much story into too small a space....we do what we can....
And you do it well. :)

BlueRocketBoy

02-11-2005, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by b.t.
dwayne mcduffie once said that what we're doing is the "princess bride" school of storytelling

"In-con-CEIVABLE!" :)

SuperChicken

02-11-2005, 12:32 PM

over the last 20 years or so, there's been an overall increasing trend in the various media to EXPLAIN things to the audience that really don't need to be explained...."where did the shadow get his mysterious powers? well, when he was a white drug lord in tibet yada yada yada"....and "how did conan get to be so strong? he pushed a giant grain mill for fifteen years!" (aaaarrrgggh! how i HATED that one)...i don't know if it's the influence of role-playing games or what, but i find it kinda irritating....obviously if something in a character's backstory is important to the story being told, then it needs to be spoken or dramatized, but if it isn't pertinent, fine, leave it out, get on with the story....

.

I think it's because there is a section of Hollywood which thinks they are dealing with unintelligent viewers. Be it in movies or TVs, they seem to think every little thing needs to explained, showed or explained. They leave very little to the imagination, I think because they are afraid someone will not 'get it', become frustrated and tune out.

Like you said sometimes an explanation can enrich a story - if done well, maybe the background on the Shadow's powers COULD be interesting. I'll agree with you it WASN'T terribly interesting - and Conan's grain mill fitness plan was pretty silly, even to a little kid, which I was when I first saw it.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in this summer's Batman origin movie --because it's ALL how Bruce becomes batman -- which could be boring....

Overall - I much prefer having it left to my imagination - sometimes it needs to be explained. Sometime it doesn't. I haven't had a problem with your, McDuffie's or anyone else on the show's choices in that regard yet.

efumf

02-11-2005, 12:57 PM

I think because they are afraid someone will not 'get it', become frustrated and tune out. But wouldn't an equal amount of people tune out because of redundant over-explaining that assumes people are morons? I know I instantly tune out of shows that are obviously catering to the lowest common denominator.

If it wasn't for JLU, the kids of today would all grow up stupid. And the entertainment of the future would make us all tune out when we're old and senile.

I love how this show really pushes your imagination into overdrive.

Drizzt2218

02-11-2005, 01:40 PM

we actually HAVE done that occasionally, when we felt it was absolutely necessary (again, i apologize if i can't point to a specific instance, it's probably in an episode that hasn't aired yet...the shows really ARE all blurring together for me at this point)...my point is, usually i think it ISN'T important to explain things like that, anymore than i think it's important to explain why joker didn't die in his previous appearance every time ("how did he survive being eaten by the 'laughing fish' shark?" or "i thought he died in that 'mad love' industrial smokestack!")....people were giving us hell about bizarro being on earth in "ultimatum", but for pete's sake, that was YEARS ago, he could have gotten off bizarro world any NUMBER of ways, and bottom line, it's not important to the present story to know how he did....if a bit of explanation can be tossed off succinctly and smoothly without interrupting the flow of the story, we'll do it if we feel it's necessary....

already we're seeing grumbles about granny goodness returning in "ties that bind"...."they better explain what happened after 'legacy', she got brain-fried during it!"....oops....gonna be a lot of public teeth-gnashing saturday night....

obviously, grundy's case in "wake the dead" was different...how and why he came back was VERY important to the story, in fact it WAS the story...and if we ever bring darkseid back, obviously we can't just have him show up without some kind of plausible explanation...

over the last 20 years or so, there's been an overall increasing trend in the various media to EXPLAIN things to the audience that really don't need to be explained...."where did the shadow get his mysterious powers? well, when he was a white drug lord in tibet yada yada yada"....and "how did conan get to be so strong? he pushed a giant grain mill for fifteen years!" (aaaarrrgggh! how i HATED that one)...i don't know if it's the influence of role-playing games or what, but i find it kinda irritating....obviously if something in a character's backstory is important to the story being told, then it needs to be spoken or dramatized, but if it isn't pertinent, fine, leave it out, get on with the story....

dwayne mcduffie once said that what we're doing is the "princess bride" school of storytelling, and i think that's really true...22 min. isn't a lot of time to tell a story, and i'll be the first to admit we've sometimes tried to pack too much story into too small a space....we do what we can....I think there's a big difference between explaining what happened in a previous appearance (i.e. how did he get off Bizarro World? Why isn't Joker dead? Why isn't Granny brain-fried?) and explaining something that is *currently* happening in an episode. See, I don't think it's stupid to offer an explaination for why more heroes aren't being called in and I don't think it's assuming the audience is stupid, either; it feels like taking the audience for granted to *ignore* the very rules laid out Initiation. That was my only gripe with "For The Man Who Has Everything," a beautifully written adaptation of an Alan Moore story that rivals Mr. Dini's own adaptation of "The Laughing Fish" in terms of greatness. The only problem with it is that it ignored everything laid out in the previous episode. All it would have taken is a single line stating that Mongul blocked communications in the Fortress, and all of a sudden the situation seems that more desperate. "We're all alone..." But without that bit, anyone left thinking about it for more than a minute has to wonder why someone didn't phone in the League to come kick Mongul's behind.

I'll give you the Shadow bit, but don't knock "Conan" buddy! That movie is awesome, and one of my favorite examples (along with Die Hard, Predator, Rambo & Road Warrior) of why the action films of the '80s are far superior to the action films of today. Conan's survival on that wheel, his quest for vengeance...well, I've always been a sucker for characters who lose their families, forge their mind and body into weapons, and seek vengeance. Yeah, I know that isn't his origin in the novels...I actually have all of the "original" Conan books by Howard and De Camp...but for the film version, I think it works wonderfully injecting a little "Batman" tragedy into his background. (Talk about a tangent!)

Oh, and I love the Princess Bride reference...I can see what you mean in terms of that storytelling technique...the general pacing. I wouldn't say you've packed too much story into 22 minutes, but most gripes can be fixed with 10 seconds of dialogue. However, I do really wish you guys would move beyond the core seven and start giving stories to all these cameo heroes. The first 13 episodes only touched the surface of all this series is capable of, and the conspiracy sounds like it's going to dominate much of these next 13 even as it does sound like you're expanding the series. With that 3rd season renewal you guys have gotten, I'd hope we'll see a lot less of the core seven and a lot more of the not-so-core 45.

--Larry

BlueRocketBoy

02-11-2005, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Drizzt2218
That was my only gripe with "For The Man Who Has Everything," ... The only problem with it is that it ignored everything laid out in the previous episode. All it would have taken is a single line stating that Mongul blocked communications in the Fortress, and all of a sudden the situation seems that more desperate. "We're all alone..." But without that bit, anyone left thinking about it for more than a minute has to wonder why someone didn't phone in the League to come kick Mongul's behind.
Perhaps Superman's Fortress of Solitude or its location (not unlike his secret identity) is something he's chosen not to share with the League at large. Bearing that in mind, Batman and Wonder Woman would be bound on some level to maintain that secret/trust unless there was truly no way to handle Mongul on their own. That, and the immediacy of the moment required them to act/fight without a lot of thought.

Jade_GL

02-11-2005, 03:57 PM

Perhaps Superman's Fortress of Solitude or its location (not unlike his secret identity) is something he's chosen not to share with the League at large. Bearing that in mind, Batman and Wonder Woman would be bound on some level to maintain that secret/trust unless there was truly no way to handle Mongul on their own. That, and the immediacy of the moment required them to act/fight without a lot of thought.
Not only that, but Batman knew (I believe) that Superman was the only one who could really beat Mongul in hand-to-hand combat. Imagine calling in a bunch of third-stringers like Vibe and seeing them get decimated by uber Mongul. Not a very nice idea.

Superman is, I believe, considered the strongest and most powerful hero in the JLU, and is looked up to by almost everyone. I think Batman and Wonder Woman knew that he was the one who could handle the threat, and therefore they had to wake him up so he could neutralize it.

EJill34

02-11-2005, 04:42 PM

...and if we ever bring darkseid back, obviously we can't just have him show up without some kind of plausible explanation...
Does that rule out a Darkseid appearance in Season 4? If so, that wrecks all my theories in the rum--I mean...speculation thread. Darn.

batmanbeyond13

02-11-2005, 05:01 PM

What's this about a third season renewal? Is the show really going on? what's up? What'sthe official word? It's my birthday and I would like to know? If the show is going on, I woulds like to see more spotlights on other characters besides what we've seen. Then it wouldn't officially be a thread like this, because people would get to know other characters in D C U.

Drizzt2218

02-11-2005, 05:02 PM

Does that rule out a Darkseid appearance in Season 4? If so, that wrecks all my theories in the rum--I mean...speculation thread. Darn.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we're getting a Darkseid return! I'm going to have to go check out that rum...er...speculation thread now, see what you guys have been discussing the last day. Note he said if Darkseid returned they'd explain it...which doesn't necessarily rule out his return, I'd say. We need more of Michael Ironside's amazing vocals.

bobspoland

02-11-2005, 05:03 PM

22 min. isn't a lot of time to tell a story, and i'll be the first to admit we've sometimes tried to pack too much story into too small a space....we do what we can....
bring back 2 parters for epsiodes that u have packed up with too much story :)

EJill34

02-11-2005, 05:10 PM

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we're getting a Darkseid return! I'm going to have to go check out that rum...er...speculation thread now, see what you guys have been discussing the last day. Note he said if Darkseid returned they'd explain it...which doesn't necessarily rule out his return, I'd say. We need more of Michael Ironside's amazing vocals.
He's just got to appear. We haven't seen him in around 40 episodes.

JackKnight

02-11-2005, 06:24 PM

I bloody love the "fan stuff" in JLU. I am indeed a giant comic fan, and it is quite awesome to see all these heroes on screen, but I don't think they're presence takes anything away from the story. They play the part they need to play, sort of like a grown up Legion of Super Heroes. I can also say without question that it doesn't bother the kids, or at least the one closest to me. For some reason, adults seem to be a liitle bit bothered by not knowing who the heck a certain hero is, but for my 4 year old nephew it is heaven on a stick. Because he asks me, my litttle nephew now knows every league member thats appeared on screen(including Vibe :eek: ) on JLU. He goes around with a bandana and a cowboy hat on with a toy ray gun saying he's Vigilante. He has so much fun watching the show, as do I and even my folks.
-K

Fone Bone

02-11-2005, 07:28 PM

b.t. I assume if you follow The Princess Bride logic you only used the "Good Parts" version.
What's this about a third season renewal? Is the show really going on? what's up? What'sthe official word? It's my birthday and I would like to know? If the show is going on, I woulds like to see more spotlights on other characters besides what we've seen. Then it wouldn't officially be a thread like this, because people would get to know other characters in D C U.Happy Birthday!

Russkafin

02-11-2005, 07:47 PM

already we're seeing grumbles about granny goodness returning in "ties that bind"...."they better explain what happened after 'legacy', she got brain-fried during it!"....oops....gonna be a lot of public teeth-gnashing saturday night....

obviously, grundy's case in "wake the dead" was different...how and why he came back was VERY important to the story, in fact it WAS the story...and if we ever bring darkseid back, obviously we can't just have him show up without some kind of plausible explanation....
Well as long as we're on the subject, how the hell did The Riddler get out of the Virtual Reality World after "What Is Reality?" Eh? Eh? Eh?

DerekPowers

02-11-2005, 10:23 PM

we figured it was pretty self-explanatory that the jlu has multiple missions happening simultaneously all over the planet...sometimes even OFF-planet....not only are reserve members not even AVAILABLE to be called in sometimes, because they're already occupied (except in the dreaded "omega level" emergency situations), but also, dramatically, we really wanted to restrict the usage of our guys calling for back-up too often, as it kinda punks them out a bit...in every single situation that you've cited, it's significant that the jlu HAVE managed to triumph without calling for back-up....so, honestly, i don't see it as a problem...it's just possible you're over-thinking it a bit....

another thing:if we had to stop and explain every time why our guys don't call for back-up, it would just slow down the show unnecessarily...seems like unnecessary exposition to me...i'd rather use those precious few seconds of screen time to do something ENTERTAINING...

i'm kinda confused: you seem to be criticizing us for not having the characters call for back-up more often....but i thought you didn't LIKE it when we've had armies of "red-shirt" superheroes showing up to kick characterization-free ass? revelator's absolutely right about one thing: no matter what we do, we can't win....
Well, i dont think that Drizzt's last few posts are only about the whole 'calling for backup' thing. He raises a lot of valid points about JLU's first season.

One was about having all these characters in the backgrounds, without any dialogue, names, or anything important to contribute to the story.

While the not calling for back-up thing can be distracting in JLU, i think it is merely a symptom of bigger problems with the writing and format of the show.

At this point i will say to b. t. (if he actually reads my posts anymore :p ) that i have nothing but respect for you and the whole creative team. Dwayne McDuffy, you too (you wrote my absolute favorite episode). I love JLU, and yeah, i do hold it to higher standards than other toons. b. t., you got a loyal fan here who will watch and read whatever you work on. Sooo, having said that:

I think the 'not calling for back-up', is a symptom, like i said. JLU season 1, imo, didnt feel like it had any direction. The show often felt very generic, with very 2-dimensional characters and very low on plot. To me, most of the episodes didnt feel like they belonged to a larger series, and part of that has to do with many episodes just leaving out lots of the characters that you'd think should be there.

For example, BTAS usually ended w/ Batman walking away from the scene, or a pan up to the gotham skyline with Batman swing by, you know what i mean. the stories and episodes usually seemed like they all fit within the same series. Each had a certain amount of set-up, characterizations, scene with Alfred, a climax, etc, yet still felt unique to its own story. They all had that mini-movie feel to them. Each episode, more or less, was able to sort of capture the essense of the series. You could watch any episode and say, okay, THIS is what btaSERIES is all about. I get it. I get what they're doing.

With JLU, not only did I rarely get the min-movie feel, but i just never felt any cohesive vibe or feel to the series. And one of the reasons is the lack of heros, who you'd think would be in a show about a superhero team. I mean, in JL we always had atleast 5 heros per show, but we didnt even get that in JLU. I mean, why call it JLU then? It didnt feel like a 'team' show half the time, and half the time they just stuck in heros in the background to justify calling it one. You know what i'm saying? And the fact that one week they're all chating on com-links, and the next they make no indication that theyre part of a larger team, even when they could obviously use the help of other heros, contributed to the generic, un-focused, feel to the show. And i'm SO not talking about just dropping a line here or there. I'm talking about the stories and the feel to the show. The stories just didnt seem to be writen for a team of superheros, and by having them not be in communication with the Watchtower at certain times and moments in the story, it just felt lazy, and felt like a blatent disregard for the overall premise of what a team show should be.

So its NOT just about them not calling for back-up. Its also about the fact that in JLU as a show, the Watchtower doesnt play a bigger role. Its about the fact that J'onn Jonzz doesnt play a bigger role. Its about the fact that nothing feels consistant and there is no defining elements within the series. Its also about how we dont see much interaction between the heros, who are SUPOSE to be a team. We rarely see them stratagizing, we rarely see them crossing paths, you know? The stories and writing just dont seem to be written for the PREMISE of such a show, and it winds up feeling empty and 2-dimensional, half the time, because of that. yeah, there are technically lots of heros (in the bgs who dont speak :sad: ), but they dont factor into the stories or STRUCTURE of the show, episode to episode, that would give JLU more direction and a more united feel.

Now, to briefly talk about certain eps. You all know how i feel about FTMWHE, so i wont even go there, except to re-iterate what Drizzt said about Batman's despiration being more believable (and not nearly as melo-dramatic to boot) if there was a REASON why he couldnt contact the league.

As far as "Dark Heart", i felt it was a great example of the league actually WORKING TOGETHER, except that it was mainly the big 3. I liked that they all took a specific role in the battle, but the overall episode was hindered by having the other heros not speak, or contribute any really interesting stuff to the story. They shot beams. that was really it.

"Wake the Dead", i felt, DIDNT need to be in-communication w/ the Watchtower, mainly because all the big guns were already there, and if they couldnt stop Grundy, then who was gonna? Hawk and Dove? (who i really liked, btw, and hope they appear again, with speaking lines, ofcourse ;) ). All the heros used their powers in interesting ways, and all contributed something to the story, AND there was enough of them that you got the feeling that, yeah, this is a superhero TEAM show.

"The Once and Future Thing" part 1, i felt, suffered from the bland, 2-dimensional, background character syndrom. all the westerners werent used interestingly at all, and while it may have been cool as a 'fan-moment', on a plot, story, dialogue, and character level it just fell really short, and is a good example of JLU's often generic feel (this episode was hardly the worst offender in this regard though).

"Hawk and Dove", imo, is SO very under-rated. Yeah, WW was very pissed off, but still, the episode still gave the viewer the feeling that they were part of a larger team, through the scenes where they communicated w/ the watchtower, we still had a fairly good intro to these un-known, obscure dc characters, there was good action, there was time to visit hespestis, time to give Ares some character stuff and motivation, and over all wrapped up pretty nicely, not feeling very rushed, and having some-what of a mini-movie feel.

"TOAFT" part 2, okay, you all probably know how i feel about this episode as well, so i wont go into it that much, BUT i feel this is what JLU should strive for. Good dialogue, good characterizations, villian motivation and origin, good story directly tied to the villian's appearence, good amount of heros w/in the episode, who played well off eachother, etc. The writing was just overall better, and it definately had a mini-movie feeling, because you were actually invested in the plot and characters. And the 'calling for back-up' issue was resolved w/in the plot.

SO, i know i just ranted like crazy, but i do hope that someone reads it, because i think that by merely saying that you'd rather have 'something entertaining' than boring moments explaining why the rest of the league isnt there, really is missing the core of the complaint to begin with. I WOULDNT want boring, obligatory, repetitive lines dropped about that. But i'd love to see the episodes written AS team shows to begin with, rather than 'team-up' shows.

Basically, i think what we're saying is, the show just doesnt feel like it is a JLU show, and if the rules established in 'Initiation' were weaved more effectively into the actual plot (rather than just being tacked on, which you seem to sugest we're suggesting), the show would benefit overall, and start to have a distinct feel to it, and start to capture that essense, that BTAS, STAS, and even BB had, episode to episode, inherent in the format, structure, and premise of the show to begin with. And, if the last 2 JLU eps are any indication (toaft 2 and the cat and canary), this may already be starting to happen.

and BTW, I wont complain one bit about Granny's return. ;) It has been long enough to start using your own form of 'closuer'.

and btw, i only criticize because i love. seriously, do you think i'd deconstruct a show so much if i didnt really like it? Again, JLU creative team, i hold you in the highest regards and hope you can read this post w/out getting offended, because i most certainly dont mean it to be.

last thing--before anyone has the chance to point it out, yes, i repeat myself, in a very long-winded fashion too. Deal with it. :D :p :)

PEACE.

Kazuya

02-12-2005, 03:08 AM

revelator's absolutely right about one thing: no matter what we do, we can't win....You win every week with me, I luv everything you have done and have never missed an Ep.

Well everything but that damn WonderWoman pig story in Jlu:D ;)

Kewpie

02-12-2005, 04:18 AM

I totally agree--I love all these superhero shows and superheros in general. I loved JL and Hawkgirl was my favorite and I watched a few episodes of the new show and couldn't stand it. For one, the whole 500 characters that can certainly never be truly developed thing is a huge turnoff. Besides that, the original characters have this weird need to shirk everyone off or act disciplinary towards them, which made me think, if I was a superhero I'd tell them to go take a long walk off a short pier and not put up with being treated so condescendingly. (The thing with Booster Gold really irritated me).

In particular in that episode, stuff was going on that was OBVIOUSLY crazy, yet Booster Gold's relegation to crowd control could not POSSIBLY have been interupted by some pressing need? What the heck would be so unbelievable about that?

And why wouldn't Richie still be around in the future with Static? I didn't actually see the continuation, only saw the first part, but I was expecting all the things you mentioned in the second part--with BB and Batman in his youth. . .

On an off topic note, I really wish Static Shock wasn't cancelled. :crying:

DLM

02-12-2005, 04:46 AM

Now, to briefly talk about certain eps. You all know how i feel about FTMWHE, so i wont even go there, except to re-iterate what Drizzt said about Batman's despiration being more believable (and not nearly as melo-dramatic to boot) if there was a REASON why he couldnt contact the league.

.DP. Im not gonna argue about most of your points, cause there are some decent ones but ... man... Its The fortress of .... m f'n ... everyone knows the name... lets all sing along... Everlovin ***SOLITUDE***
I'll buy that there's some story problems with a big league that doens't show up en masse to cruch any problem, but NOT IN FTMWHE.

Outlander00

02-12-2005, 11:24 AM

Okay as a relative newcomer to these here parts... ;)

I really think commenting about the shows "fan-service" when the show thrives on that fact kinda makes you scratch your head a bit, being a creative person myself... and Ill explain why.

The shows big appeal (and to a point its biggest challenge to do it along with appealing to the general demographic) is the fact you have all these different heros that you already familar with in JL, but also from DC comic universe as well and having them interact. I enjoy the eps where the old JL guard interact with the new members (Okay, except with maybe the exception of Hawk & Dove :p) just as much seeing the old gaurd together (ie "Kids Story") once and a while. I think the team has done a great job in writing this series for the most part. Yeah, there are growing pain/story lines that dont work, but name one show that DOESNT have that.

I agree with Dini's and b.t.'s comments and views regarding Batman Beyond because to a certain extent it required that to make the show work. JL and JLU require a) fans know the characters and b) doing fan service, in jokes, etc. to work. Just like TT requires a different set of writing and style to appeal. Different circumstances require different scenarios.

So commenting on JLU's "fan-service" is REALLY unfair to judge the show on that basis.

As far as other types of fan service (like the Atom/WW clevage thing) well... I see it like this: if it doesnt over take the story or blatant (which that example wasnt because I did not associate the two when I saw it), who cares?

Fone Bone

02-12-2005, 12:09 PM

Does that rule out a Darkseid appearance in Season 4? If so, that wrecks all my theories in the rum--I mean...speculation thread. Darn.Are ANY of your theories right? :p If not what are spoilers good for anyways?:p

Fone Bone, Once and Future Thing Part 2 Speculation Game Winner, spoiler free and lovin' it!:D

DerekPowers

02-12-2005, 02:57 PM

DP. Im not gonna argue about most of your points, cause there are some decent ones but ... man... Its The fortress of .... m f'n ... everyone knows the name... lets all sing along... Everlovin ***SOLITUDE***
I'll buy that there's some story problems with a big league that doens't show up en masse to cruch any problem, but NOT IN FTMWHE.
Honestly, i really dont understand why so many people bring this up. First, youd think WW's life would be alittle more important than preserving the fortress's location. Second, if WW AND Batman knew about the location, your telling me Superman would really care that much if MM was let in on it? You dont have to announce it's location to the whole league, and i'm sure superman would understand the need to call in a few more people, like J'onn. Superman has basically known Jonn and GL the same amount of time as WW, so if she knows, you know what, either they know too, or he really should and wouldnt have had a problem w/ them going, considering the circumstances. Just my opinion, ofcourse. peace.

Casey Mack

02-12-2005, 03:14 PM

Honestly, i really dont understand why so many people bring this up. First, youd think WW's life would be alittle more important than preserving the fortress's location. Second, if WW AND Batman knew about the location, your telling me Superman would really care that much if MM was let in on it? You dont have to announce it's location to the whole league, and i'm sure superman would understand the need to call in a few more people, like J'onn. Superman has basically known Jonn and GL the same amount of time as WW, so if she knows, you know what, either they know too, or he really should and wouldnt have had a problem w/ them going, considering the circumstances. Just my opinion, ofcourse. peace.
To believe MM would or anyone would be free considering how busy the League is is dumb. Like regular viewers i saw this was a amazeing episode focused on 3 characters, the big 3 actually. so Batman calling for help [if any was available] would ruin the idea of this episode. The shows about 60 super powered beings who protect earth, and with all this you spend your days wondering why Batman[ a man dressed in a Batsuit mind you] didn't call for help?! Im sorry Derek, not even Ebert and Roeper would spend time discussing this....peace please.
________
Nevada dispensary (http://nevada.dispensaries.org/)

James

02-12-2005, 03:49 PM

I think the irony of this thread is that the issue of "fan moments" ruining JLU is only an issue for.... the fans.

I've always been a mainstream DC fan. I used to read the comics as a child in the 80s before becoming a Marvel fan in the 90s and then a DC fan again in the 2000s.

Most of these cameos mean nothing to me. And characters who appear in stories who are a little more than cameos (say in OAFT part 1, Hawk/Dove, Booster Gold) are taken as what is given.

Those who aren't massive DC fans like I accept them for what the show offers and I have never felt that the show - in JLU form or any other - has either not given enough background for such characters or given too much.

If you watch the show without a fan eye, it flows fine. One doesn't question in the same ways fans do. So in a way, the question to whether fan moments ruin JLU becomes moot as those who appear to have an issue with it are the fans themselves, who as a group are a little more pedantic than the casual viewer.

I really can't see how it's ruining JLU since IMO JLU has been fairly consistent in it's mandate to offer space to old and new characters. With a 20 min format it's going to mean that sometimes the show will have stories where they can only cameo smaller characters, and are dominated by the traditional ones. You have to bear in mind that people watching JLU aren't all massive DC fans and like I, watch it for the established one. I do enjoy it when we see some shows devoted to minor characters, but essentially, this is a mainstream kids show and not a show devoted to long term DC followers.

If you aren't a long term DC follower, then I don't think this issue comes up. You see it as Justice League with a mandate to show off some different superheroes (and you possibly don't realise they are established comic heroes) in an action/light entertainment drama.

Writing a 20 minute show which an emphasis on action is tough and fans must remember that they aren't the sole focus of the show. All these questions and explanations about minor points are superfluous. It's fiction, you don't need to told how Joker/Grundy whatever escaped UNLESS it's story relevant. Fiction is totally open, accept what you see and don't question it. As people have said, you are living a fantasy world where people fly and rise from the dead, how does the appearance of x character require extra background info - be it about their last appearance or their personal origin UNLESS relevant to the story? 20 minutes people? Explanations can tie up 30-60 seconds. .. that's a large proportion of your time... fans have to bear in mind the constraints of format as much as relevance when it comes to judging a show.

As said earlier (and so true) people were complaining when it started that it would be too small hero orientated.. that rumour had it Batman would be in like, 3 episodes as a cameo... now we see it's far more balanced, and fans are still complaining...

Like with Batman Beyond and the recent U-turn fandom has on that. I hate it when I end up voicing the same comments as others, but it does seem "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Jade_GL

02-12-2005, 06:31 PM

I think that people tend to overanalyze things, like why a certain character wasn't there, or why a certain character didn't do such and such.

Really, I haven't seen any instance in this show that screams for extra exposition. I get everything just fine, and extra exposition would only drag down the flow and speed of the show, which I believe is essential. This show is fast and fun, why have some guy blab on for a minute about who is and why he's there?

Man, my least favorite part of Girl Scout's was the circle game where you would have to learn everyone's name and their favorite food, I don't need that being relived in my cartoon, thank you! :)

The fan moments are fun, and I haven't seen any that interupt or ruin the show. When I don't know a character, I don't dwell on it (though I do know most of them, yippee for me) but I sit back and watch the show. If the main action is fun and makes me happy, I don't tend to think about who the guy in the funky hat was, I just think about the merits of the main story and if it worked for me. And most times, it does.

If anything, I think the show is steadily improving and getting better and better every week. *The Cat and the Canary* was a wonderful episode featuring three lesser known characters in a character-driven story. It was great! I think this was one of the best put together shows so far, and I think it worked beautifully. I didn't need a big seven character, I didn't need Green Arrow's actions specifically drawn out, and I didn't need to know who all those bad guys were. It worked and worked well. :)

I hope the shows keep coming and keep giving us little fan moments. I enjoy the show as it is, since it seems to be getting better every week I tune in. I'm a happy fan, and I think that the only thing that gets me down about the show is the nitpicking that happens for every single moment of every single episode. I mean, I understand constructive criticism, but this isn't an exercise in helping people with their show, it just seems to get a bit petty when all is said and done, and in the end, most of the complaints don't make sense within the context of the show's storyline and action in a given episode.

Now, I complain about things, so I include myself sometimes, of course. But there are literally people who complain about darn near every moment, and that is killing my mood. :D

Especially when good criticism gets drowned out by what I would call silly criticisms.

Maxie Zeus

02-13-2005, 12:36 AM

I don't think it's fair to believe the audience will "assume" anything in a story.

:blinks:

Look, Superfriends went for this style. "Great Scott! I've got to use my heat vision to evaporate that tidal wave threatening Metropolis, and I've got to explain this out loud because it's not fair to believe the audience will assume anything about what I'm doing!"

Is that a caricature of what you're saying? Probably. More seriously, don't forget the general advice to mystery writers: The reader is smarter than you think. Now, how can the reader/audience be smart enough to typically outguess a mystery writer (which they usually are) but too stupid to fill in narrative holes that a story will introduce in the interest of entertainment and efficiency?

All it would take is a single line in a story..."Communications are jammed." "J'onn is assembling a team...it'll take time...time we don't have...." "I want to keep the others out of this." And so on.

:wince: I'll only mention in passing that each of these lines is an awful cliché. It's more important to note that these lines--in fact, any attempt to explain that the cavalry won't be arriving--only highlight the problem you think they solve. If help isn't at hand, it's for one of two reasons. Either the writer has figured out and shown us a clever way of sealing off our heroes (in which case a spoken explanation is redundant). Or he has sealed them off as a convenient plot point, and the line is just there to salve his bad conscience at cheating. Star Trek: TOS did this all the time by having the aliens always take the landing party's communicators. Yeah, it was an explanation, and it was at least as good as what you propose. And it became a running joke among viewers. Having small teams of JLU members constantly "out of communication and running out of time" and consciously remarking on the fact is just silly.

One episode they may be in the background, but the next they may be the central character.

I don't understand. How is this different from what JLU is doing how? (See Black Canary in "Initiation" and "The Cat and the Canary.")

So its NOT just about them not calling for back-up. Its also about the fact that in JLU as a show, the Watchtower doesnt play a bigger role. Its about the fact that J'onn Jonzz doesnt play a bigger role. Its about the fact that nothing feels consistant and there is no defining elements within the series. Its also about how we dont see much interaction between the heros, who are SUPOSE to be a team. We rarely see them stratagizing, we rarely see them crossing paths, you know? The stories and writing just dont seem to be written for the PREMISE of such a show, and it winds up feeling empty and 2-dimensional, half the time, because of that. yeah, there are technically lots of heros (in the bgs who dont speak ), but they dont factor into the stories or STRUCTURE of the show, episode to episode, that would give JLU more direction and a more united feel.

This is a red herring. If the JLers don’t feel like a team (and maybe they don't, but that's not a point I want to touch on here) it's because of they way they cooperate on the ground. All you are asking for, if I take this complaint at face value, is the addition of scene (in every episode) that has the Trouble Alert going off, followed by a small conference in which J'onn hands out assignments. Aside from the fact that this is very Superfriends-ish, why is it better to see a little committee meeting instead of some extra bad-guy whomping?

over the last 20 years or so, there's been an overall increasing trend in the various media to EXPLAIN things to the audience that really don't need to be explained.......i don't know if it's the influence of role-playing games or what, but i find it kinda irritating....obviously if something in a character's backstory is important to the story being told, then it needs to be spoken or dramatized, but if it isn't pertinent, fine, leave it out, get on with the story....

Reckless speculation: In fantasy/sci-fi, I'd tend to lay it at the feet of Tolkien and his idea of a complete and consistent "Secondary World" as the setting for a fantasy story. I love Tolkien, but his style is definitely more suited for sprawling works of prose than for cinematic works. There might be a deeper cultural shift, though, too. I read recently that sales of histories and biographies are running much stronger than works of fiction, and there may just be a general hunger out there for "stories" that are rooted in "thick" backgrounds.