Will the Once and Future Thing part 2 ruin batman beyond continuity? (spoilers maybe)

[bat313]

Since there was only a threat made that pertained to a guessing game of questions and answers i thought it would be fun to create a thread where we could discuss the possibilites of what might happen in OAFT part 2, and what events might de-cannonize (is that a word?) certain events in batman beyond.

I think if young bruce seems himself as old and cranky, he will try to stop himself from becomming that kind of old man. But i wonder what's gonna happen if Bruce now knows that someday he's going to meet Terry? That would also change "Rebirth" which is a great episode.

I don't think any events in ROTJ will be changed. I have a feeling the Jokerz are just new and improved after Terry humiliated them.

What do you guys think? Will OAFT part 2 mess with our beloved Batman Beyond stories???

[adoptedBatpuppy]

What I'm confused is the events take place before or after ROTJ?

[bat313]

What I'm confused is the events take place before or after ROTJ?
We don't know, I'm just speculating on how OAFT part 2 might change the batman beyond timeline and events.

[Simpler Simon]

Pure Speculation:

Chronos has done something to alter the timeline (hence the subtitle: Time, Warped) ever so slightly from Batman Beyond. Whatever the heroes do will restore it to the way it originally was.

[Dr. Kryptonite]

The way part 1 began with Batman and Green Lantern's talk about their love lives it made me think that maybe this was a setup for part 2's meeting between future Bruce and JLU Bruce. It would be possible that after seeing his future self all alone and with all the regrets he had during Beyond he may reconsider his decisions about Diana. This would then turn Batman Beyond into the possible future that Dini and Timm always said it was.

[Dogbert]

I sure hope it doesn't. It wouldn't be hard though. If even the smallest thing happens to Bruce, things would change.

A slight change in Bruce could mean no Powers corporate take-over, which would mean no death of Terry's father, which would likely mean no future Batman.

[CyberCubed]

The fact that Bruce knows Terry will be the next Batman completely ruins the first episode of Batman Beyond.

Unless they lose their memory or something, things will screw up big time.

[FunTurtle]

Heres a possibility on the Jokerz...

This all takes place pre-ROTJ. Chronos shows up a few months before Batman, WW, and GL. He tries to recruit some villians from his timeline to help back him up. Failing to get any A-List villains to do what he says, he gets the Jokerz. (Like Inque is really going to take orders from him.) To even the odds, he does surgery on the Jokerz...like those wacky kids did in the BB episode "April Moon." Hey, it's the future...they can be half robots or spliced...they can do whatever they want. The JL beat them down in Part 2, and after the episode they reverse the surgery. Then ROTJ happens...so Terrys line about them being a new band of Jokerz isn't wrong. That encounter with them might have been one of the first. Of course, I'm probably wrong, but so is over half the guesses here, so I'm not alone.

[Simpler Simon]

so Terrys line about them being a new band of Jokerz isn't wrong. That encounter with them might have been one of the first. Of course, I'm probably wrong, but so is over half the guesses here, so I'm not alone.
At what point does Terry say he's fighting a new band of Jokerz? I distinctly remember him saying something like "third time that month that particular gangs been after high tech stuff". The fight sequence in the teaser was NOT their first meeting.

[BeastBoyWonder]

The way part 1 began with Batman and Green Lantern's talk about their love lives it made me think that maybe this was a setup for part 2's meeting between future Bruce and JLU Bruce. It would be possible that after seeing his future self all alone and with all the regrets he had during Beyond he may reconsider his decisions about Diana. This would then turn Batman Beyond into the possible future that Dini and Timm always said it was.

This is fanboy-ism and is never going to happen. Batman Beyond is not going to be de-canonized or altered in its position as a "possible future."

[James]

The way part 1 began with Batman and Green Lantern's talk about their love lives it made me think that maybe this was a setup for part 2's meeting between future Bruce and JLU Bruce. It would be possible that after seeing his future self all alone and with all the regrets he had during Beyond he may reconsider his decisions about Diana. This would then turn Batman Beyond into the possible future that Dini and Timm always said it was.
If you check b.t's comments in the recent "Should BTAS be de-canonized?" you'll see I don't think he feels it's a possible future but a logical bookend to the tale of Batman.

You'd hardly craft a story and concept that you couldn't connect to your previous chapters. I don't think from what he's said, the fact that BB has been hinted at throughout JL and also in SS that there was ever a thought of it being "possible" beyond the fact that "politically" it was the best way to appease those in fandom who couldn't deal with it.

So far, it seems that OAFT is there to canonize rather than decanonize.

As for the issue of it breaking continuity, I find this rather odd. It's the nature of cause and effect. If Bruce does find out about his old self (which I doubt myself - they seemed reluctant to allow SS to discuss the issue with Bruce in "Future Shock") you may find he does try and fight the future.

But that would be the cause, and the result is the effect. Sometimes by fighting something we end up making exactly what we don't want. Bruce may decide the way to stop the future is to make sure that he never excepts a protege and continues being Batman longer than he should... and by doing so he irritates a heart condition and thereby creates the future.

The logic this story is working on (and as with most stories, it's theories are rather mixed) is that this happened in the BB timeline. That GL, BB and WW ALWAYS went into the future. This as apart of what makes BB happen as anything else. We saw in Future Shock (as I recall) Bruce in the future recalling the events that brought Static there. The past makes the future.

a+b=c. Those events in "a" (JL jumping into the future) + events happening prior to BB make BB. So whatever they gleen from the future will be apart of making the future.

That's how I see it anyway.

And anyway, if you make a successful stand alone Batman cartoon, would you want to decanonize it? I certainly wouldn't! I would want to tie it to the legend of Batman! It would be my legacy! I think that's what we've gradually seen in JL and JLU.

[Revelator]

My feeling is that by the end Chronos will be "persuaded" to end up doing something to negate all of his actions, thus making sure this episode never actually happened. Perhaps he will go back in time to stop himself from attempting to steal Batman's utility belt and getting detected on the watchtower.

[bat313]

My feeling is that by the end Chronos will be "persuaded" to end up doing something to negate all of his actions, thus making sure this episode never actually happened. Perhaps he will go back in time to stop himself from attempting to steal Batman's utility belt and getting detected on the watchtower.
i figurd that, or the whole memory loss scenario, but both feel kinda copoutish. If they put together an ending that avoids those two scenarios, but still works, that would rock!!

[Mister Intensity]

The concept that BB continuity would be ruined if it is revealed that it is a possible future sounds a lot like "fanboyism" to me. Here's some comments that I wrote about Hypertime in the one of the DCAU Teen Titans threads, pay particular attention to the last sentence which I will bold in this time:

Universes that exist but have similiar but different characteristics is part of the Hypertime concept. Hypertimelines tend to branch off at some point in time but the point when they branch could be at any point at time from the time of creation to the current moment. As far as how that applies to the DCAU, the universe began then time branched off in different directions, creating an infinite amount of events. What we see on TV are a result of different Hypertimelines:

1. The B:TAS, TNBA, S:TAS, JL, JLU, and SS Hypertimeline (or the DCAU)
2. The Brave New Metropolis Hypertimeline (although alternate realities appeared in "Legends" and "A Better World" they are better described as Parallel Earths, although, "A Better World" seems to operate like a Hypertimeline)
3. The Savage Time Hypertimeline (branching off point, Vandal Savage taking over the Nazi party at some point during WWII). The only Hypertimeline to date that's depicted as a Hypertimeline, which both converged and diverged over the course of that episode.
4. BB and Zeta Project Hypertimeline, which branched off the TNBA Hypertimeline when the Joker mindwarpped Tim Drake who latter killed him (until proven otherwise, its a separate Hypertimeline but this one has a known branching off point; although it may be argued that since Lobo didn't appear in the flashback to "The Main Man" in "The Call" as evidence that it is separate from the main DCAU Hypertimeline).
5. TT Hypertimeline
6. The Batman Hypertimeline (as of now, there's no real that this is part of the TT Hypertimeline)

Hypertimelines may have several things in common but at some point they diverge, even in the smallest way. So while its possible for many things to be the same within each Hypertimeline in terms of characters, situations, events, etc., but there are also some things that are very different.

Hypertime is not a very linear concept, yet, it allows for every possible scenario, including the possiblity for Hypertimes converging back together, in other words, everything happened, yet it didn't happen, or its all just fiction.

Mister Intensity

[The Master Con]

It would bring a whole new light on the early episodes of Batman Beyond if Bruce knew said events would happen, but purposely allowed them to happen in order to not destroy time.

[James]

The concept that BB continuity would be ruined if it is revealed that it is a possible future sounds a lot like "fanboyism" to me. Here's some comments that I wrote about Hypertime in the one of the DCAU Teen Titans threads, pay particular attention to the last sentence which I will bold in this time:

Universes that exist but have similiar but different characteristics is part of the Hypertime concept. Hypertimelines tend to branch off at some point in time but the point when they branch could be at any point at time from the time of creation to the current moment. As far as how that applies to the DCAU, the universe began then time branched off in different directions, creating an infinite amount of events. What we see on TV are a result of different Hypertimelines:

1. The B:TAS, TNBA, S:TAS, JL, JLU, and SS Hypertimeline (or the DCAU)
2. The Brave New Metropolis Hypertimeline (although alternate realities appeared in "Legends" and "A Better World" they are better described as Parallel Earths, although, "A Better World" seems to operate like a Hypertimeline)
3. The Savage Time Hypertimeline (branching off point, Vandal Savage taking over the Nazi party at some point during WWII). The only Hypertimeline to date that's depicted as a Hypertimeline, which both converged and diverged over the course of that episode.
4. BB and Zeta Project Hypertimeline, which branched off the TNBA Hypertimeline when the Joker mindwarpped Tim Drake who latter killed him (until proven otherwise, its a separate Hypertimeline but this one has a known branching off point; although it may be argued that since Lobo didn't appear in the flashback to "The Main Man" in "The Call" as evidence that it is separate from the main DCAU Hypertimeline).
5. TT Hypertimeline
6. The Batman Hypertimeline (as of now, there's no real that this is part of the TT Hypertimeline)

Hypertimelines may have several things in common but at some point they diverge, even in the smallest way. So while its possible for many things to be the same within each Hypertimeline in terms of characters, situations, events, etc., but there are also some things that are very different.

Hypertime is not a very linear concept, yet, it allows for every possible scenario, including the possiblity for Hypertimes converging back together, in other words, everything happened, yet it didn't happen, or its all just fiction.

Mister Intensity
The problem with this, is you accuse the issue with continuity to being an issue with fanboyism, while Hypertime is just a further extenstion.

It basically comes down to the fact that the persons don't want BB to be a part of DCAU. There is no more or less reason this should be, with as many links and connections to the other series as any other in the set of produced series.

Avoiding fanboyism (if that's the intent) you do this. If it's on TV and they link, it's official.

BTAS, STAS, TNBA, JL, SS, JLU, BB, Zeta are all in the same timeline. No need for "hypertime" whatsoever. It sounds if you don't see ROTJ flashback in JLU there is no way your theory will accept BB, yet you are immediately willing to assume JL is part of BTAS timeline (despite no proof in TNBA/STAS that it should be).

As my girlfriend likes to say, K.I.S.S, James - Keep It Simple Stupid! :D (You don't have to take the stupid part on board, that maybe meant just for me.. ;))

[li_mangaman]

Sorry, I can't read all this.

Anyway I suppose Batman leaves the JL because of Wonder Woman and that's why he doesn't have positive feelings for the league later. Plus what happened to the JLU's huge JL? My guess is that the JL in BB is the Earth base and that everyone else stays on the Watchtower.

Also it seems Terry is in the League full-time now. Plus Static's old. My guees is that this is post-BB. So basically we can, hopefully as well, forget about Wonder Woman and Batman. I wonder if JLU will lead through until BB's time?

[Dr. Kryptonite]

If you check b.t's comments in the recent "Should BTAS be de-canonized?" you'll see I don't think he feels it's a possible future but a logical bookend to the tale of Batman.

You'd hardly craft a story and concept that you couldn't connect to your previous chapters. I don't think from what he's said, the fact that BB has been hinted at throughout JL and also in SS that there was ever a thought of it being "possible" beyond the fact that "politically" it was the best way to appease those in fandom who couldn't deal with it.

So far, it seems that OAFT is there to canonize rather than decanonize.
I sure hope that what you are saying is true. Ive personally never understood those who as you say, "couldn't deal" with Batman Beyond. That show is the only way we will ever see the future of the BTAS universe. It was a quality show with some great momments and we were lucky that we got to see what we did.

[Squall]

Anyway I suppose Batman leaves the JL because of Wonder Woman and that's why he doesn't have positive feelings for the league later. Plus what happened to the JLU's huge JL? My guess is that the JL in BB is the Earth base and that everyone else stays on the Watchtower...
The building on the ground in Metropolis on Earth is the JLU Watchtower in Batman Beyond's time. My gut feeling tells me that the JLU in Batman Beyond's time is larger than the 6 members we saw in "The Call" -- like 15-20 members, perhaps, smaller than the JLU in its prime on its own show, but still bigger than we've seen. We just saw those 6 members in "The Call" is all.

Personally, I think that Batman (Bruce Wayne) will meet Batman (Terry McGuiness), but that he won't meet his older self, and Terry won't tell the younger Bruce anything that he doesn't need to know. Actually, if you look at the preview in the credits, it appears that Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Warhawk, Static, and Terry meet the elderly Bruce Wayne, while the young Bruce Wayne spends most of his time in the future Gotham on his own solo adventure...
:evil:

[James]

I sure hope that what you are saying is true. Ive personally never understood those who as you say, "couldn't deal" with Batman Beyond. That show is the only way we will ever see the future of the BTAS universe. It was a quality show with some great momments and we were lucky that we got to see what we did. That's my take.. and what I took for b.t's comments. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, I feel a little uncomfortable paraphrasing a guy who posts a lot here.. it seems to be a subject he keeps his head down on which is vaguely understandable.

"Couldn't deal with it" was rather harsh of me. I didn't notice that till you referred to it. "Those who didn't want to accept that perspective", would probably better. I do think from what's been said from b.t and simple empathy with people who spend several years intensively on a show that is their extension of their favourite superhero, that it has always meant to be canon. If you don't like that, that's up to the individual and I think they distance the creators keep from this question is to allow people to form a different scenerio. Nevertheless, I think it's always been canon. From the small comments in JL to the big connection made in ROTJ.. I don't think they'll ruin that canon they've been slowly forming with JLU in this two parter.. it doesn't flow with their ideology! :)

[bat313]

Hey guys, this thread in getting really interesting but keep in mind it's not on argument about whether or not batman beyond is connon.....it's more like a "what kinda impact" do you guys think this ep will have on what we know already know about batman beyond. Just young bruce seeing old bruce would have many reprocussions i think.
It's defenitly gotta affect GL. I mean, come on, the guys just found out he's gonna have a son, now he has to make sure he goes back home and "does the deed" with hawkgirl, unless they already have ...:evil: of course, he could go back in time and not have a good now too.... some crazy things could happen to the future if GL, Batman, or WW find out too much.

[DLM]

I have this weird feeling that the JLU universe is the "warped" one, and already has been altered and TOAFT II (wasn't that cold war treaty? :) ) will have a twist that the events in that episode actually "correct" the alteration and set Batman Beyond reality to the "real" one, or the "correct" one. I posted in the TOAFT I talkback about how Batman (JL version) is acting suspicious and playing possum, at the end of that episode. Its possible that he knows more whats going on with Chronos and the BB future than we think.

[Mister Intensity]

Hypertime babble is just a fancy way of saying that its all fiction and anything that want to happen has happened, hence the last phrase. It was Mark Waid's textual attempt in The Kingdom mini-series of telling fans not to take continuity too seriously, in light of DC's continuity inconsistencies after Crisis, despite telling fans that "Post-Crisis continuity" is the only continuity.

It's not so much that the consensus is that BB is "in continuity" that bothers me, its that it sometimes seems that some of you predicates their enjoyment of the show based on whether or not it is "in contiunity." Look at that the very title of this thread, to even suggest that if BB is taken out of continuity would "ruin" something that you profess to like is some type off twisted logic. The possible revelation that its not continuity would not change the quality or anything else about BB. Its still the same show and everything that ever happened to the characters still happened to the characters. Heck the BB world stil experienced everything that took place on the other shows, all that really changes is that the JLU, which is still in production, isn't restricted by the events of BB, which ended production years ago. It frees up the creators to tell whatever stories they want without , which is ultimately what the Hypertime concept is about, a device that allows any story to be told and allow continuity to evolve in different directions.

Mister Intensity

[El Zorro]

Hypertime babble is just a fancy way of saying that its all fiction and anything that want to happen has happened, hence the last phrase.
I just don't understand the need for an in story explaination for this. The whole "hypertime" thing has always struck me as needlessly complicated, pretentious and far too disconstructionistic for my taste. To me this sort of concept really over-thinks things. Why is it so hard to just say, "its make believe" and understand that things won't always fit as well as one might prefer. Its to much of looking at the man behind the curtain and not enough of enjoying the magic.

Of course, I could just be cranky.

[James]

I just don't understand the need for an in story explaination for this. The whole "hypertime" thing has always struck me as needlessly complicated, pretentious and far too disconstructionistic for my taste. To me this sort of concept really over-thinks things. Why is it so hard to just say, "its make believe" and understand that things won't always fit as well as one might prefer. Its to much of looking at the man behind the curtain and not enough of enjoying the magic.

Of course, I could just be cranky. Precisely my feelings and I'm tired not cranky. :) All good if that's what one needs to justify the timeline for any errors or dislike for a particular show, but personally I see it as unnescessary. I don't think OAFT will alter anything to create the need for it. I don't think any revelation to the characters will affect the future other than make the future. :) That's the sort of twist that makes time fun!



It's defenitly gotta affect GL. I mean, come on, the guys just found out he's gonna have a son, now he has to make sure he goes back home and "does the deed" with hawkgirl, unless they already have ...:evil: of course, he could go back in time and not have a good now too.... some crazy things could happen to the future if GL, Batman, or WW find out too much. How do you know it's the future that brings GL and Hawkgirl together? As I said, the future is there, going to the future was part of the past and that past constructs the future.. so if the future has any effect on the past selves, that affect will help build that future. That's the nature of time travel. So maybe his son will intensify the interest he has in Hawkgirl... or maybe they'll have their minds wiped. :)

[DLM]

It's not so much that the consensus is that BB is "in continuity" that bothers me, its that it sometimes seems that some of you predicates their enjoyment of the show based on whether or not it is "in contiunity." Look at that the very title of this thread, to even suggest that if BB is taken out of continuity would "ruin" something that you profess to like is some type off twisted logic. I think you are twisting, or at least misunderstanding the feelings of those who stand up for BB's place in the DCAU continuity. At least for me, its not so much that my enjoyment of BB is predicated on its in-continuity status. Its just that I think that the BB is a great coda for the animated Batman and the DCAU. I think the DCAU would be diminished by taking BB out of continuity, not the other way around. If TOAFT retcons or otherwise disposes of the BB series is it going to stop me from enjoying ROTJ, Disappearing Inque, or anay other of the individual episodes that were damn good stories if I watch them? Of course not. Will the DCAU as an epic wholesale fantasy universe be less enjoyable overall? Yes. Because BB adds alot to the characters of Bruce Wayne, Tim Drake, Barbra Gordon, and introduces at least one character who is as interesting as any DCAU character in Terry McGuiness, and arguably many more (Blight, Shreik, Ten, K9 Ace, Inque maybe even Max if you pick and choose your episodes).

EDIT: I note you did say "SOME people predicate" .... so I realize you aren't making a sweeping generalization, just presenting my point of view.

[ClockStomper]

I don't think they're the same Jokerz.


The clips from the ending howed THREE Dee-Dees. So it's probably an army of robots or clones.

[Teo]

I think the DCAU would be diminished by taking BB out of continuity, not the other way around.I think that's the best argument for leaving it in continuty I've heard. Plus, shows with time-travel that end up un-doing the events that happened in that very show (or other related critical events) always feel like a waste. Why tell part of a continuing story if it affects nothing or ruins something else? I'm pretty sure the creators wouldn't screw up too much anyhow, like showing Batman from the future and then having him never exist.

I agree though with what other people said about the nonsense of Hypertime and other continuity what-have-you. It's silly to have to account for every inconsistency in a fictional universe by codifying the real-world process of making the show/comic into some confusing pseudo-explanation. I say make up whatever explanation that lets you sleep at night but don't kill yourself trying to make the pieces fit perfectly when you know they don't. Enjoy the show for what it is. Peace out.

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Gunnm