That's it. I'm done with Toon Disney!

[miladycarol]

No more Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, Chip & Dale, Quack Pack, Mighty Ducks, Pepper Ann, Doug, and now they go and drop Goof Troop. Only Talespin at 2:30 a.m.? Then they go and widen Jetix. And those damn morning blocks! Why even call it Toon Disney anymore? That's it! I'm done with them. Done I tell you! :mad:

Sorry, had to vent.

[Classic Speedy]

You forgot Bonkers.

[sag_2002]

Yeah, Toon Disney's starting to become just like its bretheren. Their weekday mini-marathons are boring and repititive (although they DO have Dave the Barbarian now), their classic shows have fallen by the wayside... the only interesting part of TD nowadays is JETIX.But, hey! What's With Andy? starts up on TD tomorrow, and I haven't seen that show in my life, so there's still some things to enjoy on the network.

[Peter Paltridge]

And all these kids who enjoy the stuff Disney makes NOW better tape it, 'cause they're in for the same treatment. I wonder if they realize it.

"I see you grew two inches. Okay, let's kick everything you like off the air. We've got a new batch now!!"

[Czar Gato]

"I see you grew two inches. Okay, let's kick everything you like off the air. We've got a new batch now!!"ROFL! True though, but I guess that's how everything is.

[magicjac]

No more Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, Chip & Dale, Quack Pack, Mighty Ducks, Pepper Ann, Doug, and now they go and drop Goof Troop. Only Talespin at 2:30 a.m.? Then they go and widen Jetix. And those damn morning blocks! Why even call it Toon Disney anymore? That's it! I'm done with them. Done I tell you! :mad:

Sorry, had to vent.
I can't believe it. No more "Goof Troop"? Now I know not very many people actually like that show, but you gotta admit that taking it off of Toon Disney is sad. I'm so pissed right now. It was one thing to remove "Mighty Ducks", "Bonkers", "Quack Pack", "Ducktales", "Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers", "Disney's Doug", "Pepper Ann" and "Darkwing Duck", but now they removed "Goof Troop"? Damn Toon Disney:mad: WTF Are They Doing? I swear whoever is in charge of programming over at TD really needs some sense knocked into them. These "Weekday Bonus Stacks" are killing the only shows they have left on the whole damn channel. I'm about to cry:crying: I REALLY REALLY REALLY miss the good old TD back in 2001, when all of these shows stil laired and the bumpers were GREAT. I wish I wouldv'e made some tapes of these great shows that no longer air, but I never had the chance. It's not fair. I was just watching one of my old purchased "Bonkers" VHS cassettes and realized how much I really miss the show. It was the old out-of-print "I Oughta Be In Toons" tape as a matter of fact, and I'm very thankful I have it. This tape is hilarious, but it's not the same as having the show on Toon Disney. I will never get to see another episode with Miranda again. Atleast I still have my beloved "101 Dalmatians: The Series", but who knows how long that will last?

[One Radical Dude]

Toon Disney should simply be renamed to the Jetix channel (there's a Jetix channel in Mexico).

[Tobias]

Kim Possible and Lilo & Stitch have yet to be added to TD, as well as the upcoming American Dragon and the rest of the new shows that'll be on by the end of the year.

I predict that by the end of 2006, Aladdin, Hercules, Weekenders, Filmore, Garfield & Friends, and any other non Jetix related show will be off the air. Gargoyles might possibly be the only show from the DA era to survive what will come to be known as 'The Cleansing', and even the mighty Goliath might not even be able to fend off the new crap, er, crop of new shows for long.

[shaman_mya19]

No more Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, Chip & Dale, Quack Pack, Mighty Ducks, Pepper Ann, Doug, and now they go and drop Goof Troop. Only Talespin at 2:30 a.m.? Then they go and widen Jetix. And those damn morning blocks! Why even call it Toon Disney anymore? That's it! I'm done with them. Done I tell you! :mad:

Sorry, had to vent.
what??? nooooooooooooooo!! don't let it go!!stupid jetix i like it better on abc family but toon disney!!! blaaaaaah!! :( :( :( :(

[Classic Speedy]

I think we can all agree that any new show to debut on any network, ever, needs to be taped from day one. You never know when it might get plucked from the schedule. Thankfully I've got a good 30-40 Tiny Toons episodes, but I wasn't so lucky with Darkwing Duck & Bonkers.

OT- Whoa Tobias.... could you have picked a more grainy, pixelated avatar? :eek:

[Wolfcruiser]

I'm so glad I don't get Toon Disney NOW. I sure as hell wouldn't watch it.

[Tay the Cat]

I wish I got Toon Disney.

[paf]

No more Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, Chip & Dale, Quack Pack, Mighty Ducks, Pepper Ann, Doug, and now they go and drop Goof Troop. Only Talespin at 2:30 a.m.? Then they go and widen Jetix. And those damn morning blocks! Why even call it Toon Disney anymore? That's it! I'm done with them. Done I tell you! :mad:

Sorry, had to vent.


I am so glad to know I am not alone in this. I have tried to give this new schedule a chance, but the more I try the more angry I become. Don't get me wrong I don't mind Jetix, I actually like Spidermain and have always been a fan of X-Men, but lets face it if they add anymore hours to this line up they might as well just go ahead and change their name to the Jetix Channel and get it over with. Is it too much to hope for that maybe this is what Disney is planning to do, that eventually they will launch the Jetix Channel and this line up will leave Toon Disney, hey they might as well do it, from what I have heard the ratings for Jetix has been pretty good,. So maybe it this happened we could get some of our classic animation back. I miss Ducktales, Talespin, Rescue Rangers, Darkwing Duck, I even miss Bonkers and PepperAnn and I was never really a fan of those but they are a representation of what Toon Disney use to represent. I don't like this bonus stacks, if they show me one more Recess I'm going to scream, it seems like this one is on morning noon and night. Now to top it all off The Proud Family, and Dave The Barbarian are following suit of House Of Mouse and coming over to Toon Disney to take over part of the schedule, while still airing on The Disney Channel. Once again don't get me wrong I don't mind these, but call me a puriest, don't put any Disney Cartoon on Toon Disney until you retire it from The Disney Channel, I take offense to them airing in two places while some of these great classics aren't seen at all. I miss not only these programs but also the programming blocks that Toon Disney stood for, like Chillin with The Villians, @ Toon and now the lastest casualty Hangin with The Heroes. This was what Toon Disney was all about, now they are losing all that made them a channel worth watching and are just becoming a Disney Channel clone/Jetix Channel, If I want to watch The Disney Channel I'll watch it, and I can also see Jetix on ABC Family, so guess what Toon Disney is no longer the special channel it use to be, it just looks like all the rest.

[Wanted]

I'm so glad I don't get Toon Disney NOW. I sure as hell wouldn't watch it.Mine got cut off 3rd December 2004. Heck, I didn't even watch it then. They took Teacher's Pet off! And, the marathons... that's monotony. I could manage a network schedule-wise better. Any of us could.

Well, I may be going too far.

[magicjac]

I am so glad to know I am not alone in this. I have tried to give this new schedule a chance, but the more I try the more angry I become. Don't get me wrong I don't mind Jetix, I actually like Spidermain and have always been a fan of X-Men, but lets face it if they add anymore hours to this line up they might as well just go ahead and change their name to the Jetix Channel and get it over with. Is it too much to hope for that maybe this is what Disney is planning to do, that eventually they will launch the Jetix Channel and this line up will leave Toon Disney, hey they might as well do it, from what I have heard the ratings for Jetix has been pretty good,. So maybe it this happened we could get some of our classic animation back. I miss Ducktales, Talespin, Rescue Rangers, Darkwing Duck, I even miss Bonkers and PepperAnn and I was never really a fan of those but they are a representation of what Toon Disney use to represent. I don't like this bonus stacks, if they show me one more Recess I'm going to scream, it seems like this one is on morning noon and night. Now to top it all off The Proud Family, and Dave The Barbarian are following suit of House Of Mouse and coming over to Toon Disney to take over part of the schedule, while still airing on The Disney Channel. Once again don't get me wrong I don't mind these, but call me a puriest, don't put any Disney Cartoon on Toon Disney until you retire it from The Disney Channel, I take offense to them airing in two places while some of these great classics aren't seen at all. I miss not only these programs but also the programming blocks that Toon Disney stood for, like Chillin with The Villians, @ Toon and now the lastest casualty Hangin with The Heroes. This was what Toon Disney was all about, now they are losing all that made them a channel worth watching and are just becoming a Disney Channel clone/Jetix Channel, If I want to watch The Disney Channel I'll watch it, and I can also see Jetix on ABC Family, so guess what Toon Disney is no longer the special channel it use to be, it just looks like all the rest.Amen! I'm so fed up with TD. I agree with everything you just said:)

EDIT
I have more things to add lol. I completely and utterly agree with everything you said PAF. I despice the new Toon Disney. I mean, what are those TD executives smoking? "Weekday Bonus Stacks"? Marathons KILL cartoons. And with all of the marathons they're showing daily, they're just putting all of the rest of their remaining shows in an early grave. "Recess" is so over-played it's not even funny. I used to love that show, but TD is REALLY shoving it down my throat. The same thing with "The Weekenders" and "The Proud Family". And about "The Proud Family"... WTF?!? Why is this airing on both The Disney Channel AND TD? That's stupid. Why does this deserve to air on 2 channels when are beloved "Ducktales", "Darkwing Duck" and even "MIghty Ducks" doesn't even air on one? That's not fair at all. And the same thing does for "Dave The Barbarian". This doesn't need to air on TD, and I can guarantee that we'll be seeing "Kim Possible", "Lilo & Stitch: The Series", "Brandy & Mr. Whiskers" and "Jake Long American Dragon" on TD within the next few years. Why? Why is Disney torturing us with taking our beloved classics and stuffing them to gather dust in their vaults? WTH?!? And I really miss Chillin' With The Villians, @ Toon and Hangin' With The Heroes. Also, the old TD from 2001 had a special block called "Toons In The House", and it ROCKED! LOL @ Toon replaced it when TD changed its format in 2002.
Chillin' With The Villians disappeared in 2003 when Disney made "Hangin' With The Heroes, @ Toon disappeared when TD infamously changed November 1, 2004 and was replaced by After School, and Hangin' With The Heroes was the latest casualty to disappear due to Jetix. Jetix has ruined TD. Jetix has taken over the whole channel when it already airs on ABC Family. I'm so sick of Jetix and TD altogether. I may like some shows on Jetix, but it has ruined part of my life for good. Also, I thought I could handle all of these changes, that is until TD discontinued "Goof Troop" on January 10. You'd think that cancelling half of the old shows that are the most important thing on TD would be enough, but no, they had to go and expand Jetix once again, and now "Goof Troop" is gone. So my question is... What's next? "Talespin"? "The Little Mermaid"? "The New Adventures Of Winnie The Pooh"? "101 Dalmatians: The Series"? "Aladdin"? "Hercules"? The last straw for me will be when "101 Dalmatians: The Series" is removed. When that infamous day comes, and we all know it's coming, I will lose it. TD better watch us, cuz I know that all of us are not very happy at all. I will always remember November 1, 2004 as the infamous day that changed TD FOREVER

[magicjac]

Mine got cut off 3rd December 2004. Heck, I didn't even watch it then. They took Teacher's Pet off! And, the marathons... that's monotony. I could manage a network schedule-wise better. Any of us could.

Well, I may be going too far.
I thought "Teacher's Pet" aired weekends at 12:00 p.m. to 1:00 p.m.? Maybe it really was discontinued on TD, but I agree with you on the weekday bonus stacks. Those are so... pointless. I'm so angry right now but I have to get off. I have school in the morning but I will post more later! You Can Quote Me On That!:p

[Tintin]

I'm sorry for you guys, that's again the 2004 treatment. But in Canada, "Goof Troop" air again on Family Channel weekdays at 12:37pm eastern time

[Yash]

I'm sorry for you guys, that's again the 2004 treatment. But in Canada, "Goof Troop" air again on Family Channel weekdays at 12:37pm eastern time
12:37 seems kind of... random. What's with the weird time?

[chris3116]

Family Channel in Canada. I know that channel. It's like Disney Channel and Toon Disney together. Disney holds 35% on Family. It's a pay channel.

Family airs Power Rangers Dino Thunder. I never understand why Family has it when Mighty Morphin Power Rangers is banned.

Digimon might be put on that channel too. YTV should have renewed their rights when it was the time.

Family has the rights of Daigunder and Mon Colle Knights. I think that MCK is off the air. They aired that on a wannabe Jetix block called the Power Box.

I watched once Family when Videotron cared it 5-6 years ago.

[RonDrakenfan17]

Few I thought I was the only one who caught the new change and didn't like it. I'm sure when Kim Possible is sadly canncled they'll add that show to Toon Disney taking off another classic show. Toon Disney does indeed suck now, I hate how they keep replacing classic shows with the new canneled Disney shows, that sucks. I was hoping for Toon Disney to air Goof Troops Puppy Love. I haven't seen that episode yet and I've been wanting to see it. I think they should have three separate Disney channles one for classic old Disney cartoons, another for canncled live action Disney shows and one more for the new canncled Disney cartoon shows. Becuase what their doing to Toon Disney just plane sucks.

[Starlioness]

I've always been mad at TOON Disney because it's one of those extra channels *grumbles* not everyone can afford cable/Satelite..etc... and it pisses me off that I can't she my shows because of that.. but then again.. with Disney Censoring and pulling shows out of its schedule... I feel less mad and more annoyed.. though I wonder if they plan on putting any of the DA shows on DVD. at least Gargoyles had the first season...I wonder if the others will be half as lucky..:sad: .

it was kind of folly having Toon Disney at my house when I had it.. our only cable box was downstairs and hogged by my dumbhead roommates *glares*:mad:

yeah, tape your shows now before the censors /executives pluck it.. :crying:

the executives can of Toon Disney can burn in Heck as far as I'm concerned..

[Conan-san]

Toon Disney should simply be renamed to the Jetix channel (there's a Jetix channel in Mexico). Lemme guess, it used to be Fox Kids by any chance?

[One Radical Dude]

Lemme guess, it used to be Fox Kids by any chance?
Not 100% sure, but I think so. When I was in Mexico a few weeks ago, some of my relatives recently got satellite TV (they had Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, Boomerang, Disney Channel, Magic Kids, and Jetix). They do have a website at http://www.jetixtv.com

[Wesyeed]

The jetix disney channels get all the classic shows PLUS some new anime and disney shows all on the same channel given plenty of room to breath. (It's like that now anyway...mumble...mumble...)

I hope no one tunes into toon disney and it dies a slow death, akin to many of disney's classic shows it once treasured.

I have deep inside type feelings that they'll be back. Either on DVD or on another channel, but they'll be back. Well... after disney stuffs its new shows down our throats of course.

Now I'm not so sad I cancelled my subscribtion for toon disney.:zim:

[Jave]

Lemme guess, it used to be Fox Kids by any chance?Short answer: Yes.

[Conan-san]

Short answer: Yes.
Yeah, actuly Could I put a heads up on this one. Jetix outside the US, is simply fox kids renamed to siad channel and might not offer much, if any Disney output.

[SuperStantzio]

Amen to that! I don't watch that channel at all either ever since they took off all the good shows and there's hardly any classic shows on there and it's only filled with shows that got recently cancelled. I really wish watch Goof Troop and Bonkers again. :mad: :crying: :mad:

[DTaina]

For years, Toon Disney was one of the only channels I would watch. I could stay up all night watching Gargoyles, Aladdin, Hercules, Darkwing Duck, Bonkers, Goof Troop, Tale Spin... the list goes on and on. I was never very happy with the schedule, since all the good shows aired late at night. Now I wish I had appreciated it more because, in the blink of an eye, and practically OVERNIGHT, most of the shows were GONE for no explicable reason. And now I only tune in to watch Gargoyles. It's all about Jetix now, and if I hear that "JETIX!" thing again, I'm going to scream!

Toon Disney should be about DISNEY TOONS. NOT Power Rangers (which isn't even a TOON). NOT Anime. Is that so hard to understand, Disney?! I can't believe this Jetix thing just took over!

So I guess I'll just try to find the only episode I ever taped of Darkwing Duck, "Dead Duck," which should be around here somewhere, and remember the good old days when Toon Disney was about toons. Hey, I remember taping Gargoyles off Toon Disney and recording all the commercials a few years back. Maybe I'll go look at those... and remember when Toon Disney was about magic and when all those shows were still on.

Rest in peace, Toon Disney... you were great while you lasted.

[Jave]

Yeah, actuly Could I put a heads up on this one. Jetix outside the US, is simply fox kids renamed to siad channel and might not offer much, if any Disney output.They show uncut Gargoyles.

[Conan-san]

They show uncut Gargoyles. I was reffering to our Jetix and the Jetixs (Jetixii?) of other places. Ours shows (In addition to 4-kids shows and Megaman NT Warrior) Super Robot Monkey Team Hyper Force, go!

[magicjac]

For years, Toon Disney was one of the only channels I would watch. I could stay up all night watching Gargoyles, Aladdin, Hercules, Darkwing Duck, Bonkers, Goof Troop, Tale Spin... the list goes on and on. I was never very happy with the schedule, since all the good shows aired late at night. Now I wish I had appreciated it more because, in the blink of an eye, and practically OVERNIGHT, most of the shows were GONE for no explicable reason. And now I only tune in to watch Gargoyles. It's all about Jetix now, and if I hear that "JETIX!" thing again, I'm going to scream!

Toon Disney should be about DISNEY TOONS. NOT Power Rangers (which isn't even a TOON). NOT Anime. Is that so hard to understand, Disney?! I can't believe this Jetix thing just took over!

So I guess I'll just try to find the only episode I ever taped of Darkwing Duck, "Dead Duck," which should be around here somewhere, and remember the good old days when Toon Disney was about toons. Hey, I remember taping Gargoyles off Toon Disney and recording all the commercials a few years back. Maybe I'll go look at those... and remember when Toon Disney was about magic and when all those shows were still on.

Rest in peace, Toon Disney... you were great while you lasted.I agree with you 100%. I REALLY miss the old Toon Disney. The bumpers rocked my world. Those bumpers were awesome and by far the best channel bumpers EVER!!! Honestly without Toon Disney I feel like a part of me is missing. I used to watch NOTHING, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING but Toon Disney. Those were the good old days:crying: It's just not fair. I don't understand why, or even how those damned executives over at Toon Disney could even consider ruining the channel like this. It sickens me:mad: Whta happened to the days when the only thing that mattered were the toons? What happened to their priorities? Honestly this is utter bullsh*t. I shouldv'e known this would happen when Toon Disney changed their bumpers last summer. I thoight those bumpers were so cool when I was watching "The Mighty Ducks", "Bonkers", "Quack Pack" and "Goof Troop". Those trumpets the big bad wolve from "House Of Mouse' played blended well with my nostalgia, but now I hate those damn things:mad: Toon Disney has really gone down the tubes. Seriously. I wish I ran that channel. let me tell you that all of this Jetix nonsense would be put to a close. Jetix should not even air on TD. It already airs on ABC Family, so why does it have to take over TD? That's one of the major reasons why I no longer can see "Disney's Doug", "Pepper Ann" or even "Ducktales" on Toon Disney anymore. Why is "Power Rangers" such a huge priority when it isn't even really a Disney property and is not a damn toon? I feel so sngry with this whole Toon Disney ordeal. I wish I could something, but what can I or anyone else do?

[CookieS]

Man, you all are starting to sound old. Very old. Not liking new shows and wishing old ones would come back? I'm sorry, but am I the only one without the "Nick at Nite" mentality? I don't watch a lot of Toon Disney, but I watch enough to know that the new cartoons are aimed at children and I can accept that. In 10 years there will probably be a group of 20-somethings wishing "Recess" and "Llyod in Space" were back. Disney always had a history with children's programming. You should eiher keep your mouth shut until another hit comes along, or move on.

Running 10 year old cartoons into infinity isn't a good business pratice at all. Don't you realize these have a nastalgia appeal for an increseaing small market? With new programs the network gets a chance to franchise (aka make money). If you want older cartoons either tape them or shell out the cash for DVDs. No network can put all their eggs into a basket that doesn't churn out new product. How can they ever be competitive in the cable market if Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network both have new shows, and Disney is still airing old ones? Old shows are great, but part of keeping their charm is by pulling them off the air. "Gargoyles" only did so well because of a 10 year absence from the air. It made demand grow.

Until you step outside of fan's eye, you'll never understand why these "BIG BAD COMPANIES" keep trying to stick it to you. Cable television is about making money. Its a business. Old cartoons have only so much money to make. You don't like the new ones, fine don't watch. Someone else will, and money can still be made. All I ever hear is negative complaining and not one single postive idea. Even if you don't like programming director's outcomes, you could still construct positive dialogue that might actually get you noticed at an innovator....someone that took the lemons and made the lemonade. Instead you all whine. Keep your WAH WAHS to yourself and move people.

[magicjac]

Man, you all are starting to sound old. Very old. Not liking new shows and wishing old ones would come back? I'm sorry, but am I the only one without the "Nick at Nite" mentality? I don't watch a lot of Toon Disney, but I watch enough to know that the new cartoons are aimed at children and I can accept that. In 10 years there will probably be a group of 20-somethings wishing "Recess" and "Llyod in Space" were back. Disney always had a history with children's programming. You should eiher keep your mouth shut until another hit comes along, or move on.

Running 10 year old cartoons into infinity isn't a good business pratice at all. Don't you realize these have a nastalgia appeal for an increseaing small market? With new programs the network gets a chance to franchise (aka make money). If you want older cartoons either tape them or shell out the cash for DVDs. No network can put all their eggs into a basket that doesn't churn out new product. How can they ever be competitive in the cable market if Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network both have new shows, and Disney is still airing old ones? Old shows are great, but part of keeping their charm is by pulling them off the air. "Gargoyles" only did so well because of a 10 year absence from the air. It made demand grow.

Until you step outside of fan's eye, you'll never understand why these "BIG BAD COMPANIES" keep trying to stick it to you. Cable television is about making money. Its a business. Old cartoons have only so much money to make. You don't like the new ones, fine don't watch. Someone else will, and money can still be made. All I ever hear is negative complaining and not one single postive idea. Even if you don't like programming director's outcomes, you could still construct positive dialogue that might actually get you noticed at an innovator....someone that took the lemons and made the lemonade. Instead you all whine. Keep your WAH WAHS to yourself and move people.There's one thing you don't seem to understand... this is Toon Disney, a channel that is SUPPOSED to air 10 year old cartoons. Look don't come on here and tell us all to stop the whining because no one is whining. So I miss the old Toon Disney, it's a free country. I can whine all I want, and you can't come on here and tell me to move on. I never said anything about Disney making new cartoons, everybody needs money to live. What I said was Disney is ruining TD by adding new shows and taking off the old ones. TD is supposed to be a channel for the toons and nostalgic reasons. Now it's turing into The Disney Channel 2 aka Jetix. And why do we need to keep the Wah Wahs to ourselves? This IS A Messageobard You Know. You shouldn't come on here and try to start flaime-bait messages. Have more respect for the Toon Zone Policy:mad:

[Tommy Lawson]

Until you step outside of fan's eye, you'll never understand why these "BIG BAD COMPANIES" keep trying to stick it to you. Cable television is about making money. Its a business. Old cartoons have only so much money to make. You don't like the new ones, fine don't watch. Someone else will, and money can still be made. All I ever hear is negative complaining and not one single postive idea. Even if you don't like programming director's outcomes, you could still construct positive dialogue that might actually get you noticed at an innovator....someone that took the lemons and made the lemonade. Instead you all whine. Keep your WAH WAHS to yourself and move people.
Ditto, and once again, I submit for your consideration the W.I.T.C.H. sneak preview ratings from December 2004 versus the Toon Disney ratings for December 2003:


The W.I.T.C.H preview on Toon Disney on Sunday, December 19 (8:00 - 9:00 pm) delivered an average of 317,000 Total Viewers and generated triple digit percentage gains in ratings with households and all key demos versus a year-ago: up 100% in Households (0.4/206,000 vs. 0.2/98,000), up 233% with Kids 2-11 (1.0/179,000 vs. 0.3/51,000), up 100% with Kids 6-11 (1.0/110,000 vs. 0.5/47,000), up 83% with Boys 2-11 (1.1/103,000 vs. 0.6/48,000), up 38% with Boys 6-11 (1.1/67,000 vs. 0.8/45,000), up an "infinite" percentage with Girls 2-11 (0.9/76,000 vs. 0.0/2,000) and up 700% with Girls 6-11 (0.8/43,000 vs. 0.1/2,000).
When you earn triple digit and even "infinite" percentage increases, guess what, the network will not change its marketing strategy. Jetix is the future of Toon Disney. You'll just have to learn to deal with it. This is almost the exact same situation happening over at Cartoon Network, which is gettting very high ratings for its programming as well. The shows most of you are complaining about have aired literally thousands of times since 1998! I mean, you did have ample chances to tape them, or at least watch them many times over. While I know that doesn't help you who miss the shows, cable TV isn't a stagnant world where nothing chages. Change is the only constant in the universe you know. Toon Disney has been adding cable systems to its lineup and is the fastest of the 3 next-generation cartoon channels to grow (Boomerang and NickToons being the other 2), and Jetix just helps to convince other cable operators to add the channel.

[Jave]

There's one thing you don't seem to understand... this is Toon Disney, a channel that is SUPPOSED to air 10 year old cartoons. Look don't come on here and tell us all to stop the whining because no one is whining. So I miss the old Toon Disney, it's a free country. I can whine all I want, and you can't come on here and tell me to move on.It's funny how you say no one is whining and the sentence after that you say you are.

I never said anything about Disney making new cartoons, everybody needs money to live. What I said was Disney is ruining TD by adding new shows and taking off the old ones. TD is supposed to be a channel for the toons and nostalgic reasons. Now it's turing into The Disney Channel 2 aka Jetix. And why do we need to keep the Wah Wahs to ourselves? This IS A Messageobard You Know. You shouldn't come on here and try to start flaime-bait messages. Have more respect for the Toon Zone Policy:mad:You are the only one here that is not respecting the TZ policy because you are acting in a very annoying way due to your form of complaining. This might be a Message Board, but that doesn't mean you can rant about anything you want. There are rules and regulations about this and the first step is being polite in your posts.

Unfortunately, when new shows come, they need to get rid of old shows because of scheduling, this is how EVERY NETWORK works, it's not just with cartoons. They just can't magically add more hours to the days of the week so every single show can air. It's how it works, you have to deal with it.

And another thing you don't seem to be realizing: Name in Bold = Moderator. CookieS's name is in Bold. Do the math.

[One Radical Dude]

What Tommy and CookieS are saying is nothing but the truth, even though I miss the stuff that made Toon Disney the channel it once was. Some things do have to change, and change can be for the better or worse. Running the exact same cartoons that are 10+ years old at the present time for the next few decades wouldn't be good for business. If the ratings skyrocket (as they did on Jetix), then the company will not change its ways. I enjoy old stuff and new stuff, and I not only dislike some new shows, but some of the old ones, as well.

There is something I would like to see in the future, and that's to see programs that were once on Toon Disney see DVD releases. It is possible.

[Classic Speedy]

CookieS and Tommy Lawson definitely have a point, and I for one like catching new shows. It's just that very few new shows on Toon Disney have interested me as of late. Super Robot Monkey Team Hyper Force is fun once in a while, and X-Men/Spider-Man are great for nostalgia, but everything else I'm completely indifferent towards (though I might catch W.I.T.C.H.). And I know I'm beating a dead horse, but Power Rangers does NOT belong on the network. It'd be like having a debate show on Food Network.

And as for not having enough room on the schedule once new shows debut: Why couldn't Toon Disney just stick their older shows at a red eye hour? While it may be inconvenient for people to set their VCRs, atleast the shows would still be on the network and not taking up important daytime slots. A perfect example is Tiny Toons on Nick. After it was taken off the 2 PM/1c slot, it was stuck at 6 AM/5c on weekends. Sure it sucked to have to set a VCR, but atleast I was able to see it. That is, until it was taken off and replaced by reruns of GAG! CatDog and Hey Arnold!. You've got two hour marathons on Monday-Friday which seem completely unnecessary- you're telling me that other shows can't be placed in perfectly good spots?

Normally I wouldn't care but I recently got into Darkwing Duck and Bonkers, and just as I start to tape them, they're taken off the air.

[CookieS]

TD is supposed to be a channel for the toons and nostalgic reasons. Ah see, you're mistaken. No where in Toon Disney's press releases, on-air accounements, or package has the words "classic," "nastalgic," or "retro" come up. Unlike Cartoon Netowork's Boomerang channel, Toon Disney is not trying to exclusively cover old cartoons. If I recal correctly, much of their programming is from the late 90s which is pretty new. When a new channel starts, they tend to rely on old programming because its less overall cost to air. Once a channel is established they can invest in new programming. You might think its just a "nice thing" to do for the fans, but it has little to do with the fans and more to do with overhead costs..


Now it's turing into The Disney Channel 2 aka Jetix. And why do we need to keep the Wah Wahs to ourselves? This IS A Messageobard You Know. You shouldn't come on here and try to start flaime-bait messages. Have more respect for the Toon Zone Policy:mad: Flame baiting would mean that I'm making trouble without reason. I think I explained my point pretty well within a few paragraphs. If you think I'm talking just to make you upset, then re-read my comments. As far as whining goes, I call them like I see them. For a while you and others have been chronic complainers about not only the Disney company's operations (prompting a new thread on the subject) but of any change the company makes in general. While the idea of a "golden era" is nice, its hardly ever real considering that at every point in Disney's history there were supporters and opponents to their films and tv shows.

If you chose to complain about anything, how about giving it a constructive spin? The moderators have been really nice to you guys, and I think its time to get out of using words that create a hostile message board. Next time you don't like something, think of a way it could be changed for the better, but still consider the ins and outs of the cable industry. Obviously reverting all programming to mid-90s isn't plausable at this point. I liked the idea of setting aside an hour or so for older shows. Heck, maybe even a weekend block. This is realistic and doesn't reek of the negativity so many have become accustomed to.


And another thing you don't seem to be realizing: Name in Bold = Moderator. CookieS's name is in Bold. Do the math. Actually I'm an Admin...a step above a moderator. That shouldn't matter though since I'm not talking about banning/editing/deleting this conversation. I'm talking about the core of Toon Zone: people, and how we react to things. I don't expect all of you to know everything about the cable industry, marketing, ratings, and how these factors influcence programming decisions, but I do expect the long-standing members to take charge of the general attitudes. Since when is Toon Zone the endless rant website? The most enduring downers here have the biggest ignorance of the people/business they gripe about. Its just very annoying that everyone feels they have the right to air an opinion without really understanding the opposing view.

[Jave]

Actually I'm an Admin...a step above a moderator. That shouldn't matter though since I'm not talking about banning/editing/deleting this conversation. I'm talking about the core of Toon Zone: people, and how we react to things. I don't expect all of you to know everything about the cable industry, marketing, ratings, and how these factors influcence programming decisions, but I do expect the long-standing members to take charge of the general attitudes. Since when is Toon Zone the endless rant website? The most enduring downers here have the biggest ignorance of the people/business they gripe about. Its just very annoying that everyone feels they have the right to air an opinion without really understanding the opposing view.I've always thought that Bold=Moderator and Bold+Italic=Admin... oh well. ;)

I usually do my best to try to keep the Boards in a friendly enviorment so flamewars won't happen. However, I hate what this board in particular is turning into. Sure, you are entitled to like the DA shows, but it seems whenever someone voices his personal opinion that reveals the dislike of a show, he gets attacked because what he said was flamebait. I've seen it happen, it's not something I'm making up.

I also wonder why do people feel it so necessary to hijack threads and talk about Michael Eisner and how Disney is being run, half the time it's not even called for. I suppose that limiting the discussion to only two general threads was the least the mods could have done, but a lot of people seem to still not be listening to the rules. I agree it becomes annoying when people rant about an opinion and feel they do not have to listen to a counter-argument.

In short guys, let's try to keep this board safe. You are entitled to opinions, but all I ask in return is that you respect what others have to say. :)

And now... moving on...

[Tintin]

12:37 seems kind of... random. What's with the weird time?

Family Channel air all shows and movies without commercial programs

[tucsoncoyote]

Alright I take a "Time out" for 2 days... and I come back to yet another unhappy group of Campers... and in fact I'm going to lay it out here..(so Cookies, Tommy, the Rest of you.. please listen to what I have to say...)

First off The "Old School Campers are correct in the fact that Indeed Toon Disney is for Disney Classic Cartoons..(That's a Given...) after all these are the shows that helped make all the New Shows Popular...(such as Super Force Monkey Team Hyperforce Go! and Dragon Boosters...)

However I think that CookieS and Tommy both have a point here.. that New shows are good too...but without the Older shows then the Newer shows are indeed Meaningless...

So Might I make a Proposition here... Compromise...(yes you heard me.. Compromise...)

In short I agree that there should be a Balance here between Older "Classical" Disney Animation that needs to be on, and in fact I also say there should be Newer shows too.. After all Toon Disney does have to have some sort of Balance... But again I don't think we should be pointing our fingers at easch other and blaming the New School for the Old School's Problem and vice versa.. After all, if you really want to point fingers at anyone.. Point fingers at the Programmers and Executives who control Toon Disney, After all they have 48 Half Hour Slots to fill in any given day.. There's more then enough space here to compromise and to in fact Keep Everyone happy... after all That's one reason why I say Disney needs to get out of this attitude of "newer is better " routine and get back to basics.. After all Here's a Good case point where The Walt Disney Company is losing fans left right and center because of one important factor they fail to realize.... All viewers of Toon Disney, Disney Channel, and ABC Family are indeed getting older.. and rather then Catering to just one Group, The Walt Disney Company needs to realize that there are a number of Viewers of Varying ages out there and in fact they need to realize that the Older Fans of Disney's Older Shows need their space too.. (After all It's called Common Sense here.. Frankly I would like to see Toon Disney, Disney Channel, and ABC Family get away from their Silly Policies that state incorrectly that "The Company knows Better.. It does not.. The fans know better here.. and that's all the more reason why fans need to stick together and agree on a compromise of both old and new shows.. (After all, Balanace here is the Key to Disney's Success, but with them completely Vaccilating between Older fans and Newer showers.. there has to be a compromise for everyone to agree upon...)

in short.. Balance here is the key to Disney's Success, and in fact Lack of Balance is what is happening now.. Disney has swung the pendulum too far in one direction, it's time for us, the Fans to speak our mind to the Company and state that A balance must Be maintained.. between Older "Classical Disney Afternoon and Disney Toons" and the Newer Material that they are willing to offer..

In conclusion here... why can't we all just get along and focus on the Problem that is facing Us right now? And that is that Disney is Losing Fans.. And in a big way.. I think if we take our energies and in fact complain to the company causing this problem it would most benefit us all.

That's really All I need to say...

:coyote:

[Elven Moon]

Did they REALLY get rid of all those? No WONDER I haven't seen them on in so long :( That's just not right, I really liked watching them. Now I don't know when I'll ever see them again!

[BrendaBat]

Origionally posted by CookieS
If you want older cartoons either tape them or shell out the cash for DVDs. I think I speak for all whiney fans when I say this: "If Disney Afternoon DVDs were available, I'd NEVER whine about ToonDisney again!" :p



Origionally posted by CookieS
No network can put all their eggs into a basket that doesn't churn out new product. How can they ever be competitive in the cable market if Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network both have new shows, and Disney is still airing old ones? Old shows are great, but part of keeping their charm is by pulling them off the air. "Gargoyles" only did so well because of a 10 year absence from the air. It made demand grow.You make a good point. However, I don't see why any kid would bother watching ToonDisney when the only thing setting it apart from the regular Disney Channel is Jetix and the lack of tween sit-coms.

Personally, I wouldn't mind Toon Disney's mixing new shows in if they didn't can an older show each time without any warning. When Dave the Barbarian was added, I wondered what show would have to go and, just my luck, it was the one DA show that I hadn't gotten around to taping yet (Goof Troop). The Nicktoons channel does a good job of balancing old shows with new shows. I don't see why Toon Disney can't do the same thing.

[Jave]

The Nicktoons channel does a good job of balancing old shows with new shows. I don't see why Toon Disney can't do the same thing.Nickelodeon doesn't have as much cartoons as Disney. I'm willing to bet ten years from now Doug and Aaahh Real Monsters will be completely off the schedule.


First off The "Old School Campers are correct in the fact that Indeed Toon Disney is for Disney Classic Cartoons..(That's a Given...) after all these are the shows that helped make all the New Shows Popular...(such as Super Force Monkey Team Hyperforce Go! and Dragon Boosters..I reiterate what CookieS said... never did Toon Disney advertise themselves as a "retro" network. If that was true they'll be showing the original theatrical shorts as well.

The problem is that some of you guys seem to want Disney to put back on every DA cartoon ever made at a decent schedule. If that's it, well, it's just plain stupid... no network would do such a dumb move of filling the schedule with shows that are over 10-15 years old whose replayability doesn't go over 65 airings (some less, some more). I would agree that a small block (like, 2 hours a day) dedicated to the old shows would probably be nice. However, what you guys are asking for is just too much.

If you love these shows so much, you should have taped them while they were on, and you had the time. Some of these shows were being reruned for years, and even if you didn't taped them, chances are you saw every episode enough times to remember it by heart.

Yes, it sucks that your favorite show gets cancelled, and it sucks even more when it's taken off the schedule for good, but it has happened (to me and everyone else) tons of times, and you just need to move on, along with your tapes and DVDs.

[tucsoncoyote]

Nickelodeon doesn't have as much cartoons as Disney. I'm willing to bet ten years from now Doug and Aaahh Real Monsters will be completely off the schedule.

I reiterate what CookieS said... never did Toon Disney advertise themselves as a "retro" network. If that was true they'll be showing the original theatrical shorts as well.

The problem is that some of you guys seem to want Disney to put back on every DA cartoon ever made at a decent schedule. If that's it, well, it's just plain stupid... no network would do such a dumb move of filling the schedule with shows that are over 10-15 years old whose replayability doesn't go over 65 airings (some less, some more). I would agree that a small block (like, 2 hours a day) dedicated to the old shows would probably be nice. However, what you guys are asking for is just too much.

If you love these shows so much, you should have taped them while they were on, and you had the time. Some of these shows were being reruned for years, and even if you didn't taped them, chances are you saw every episode enough times to remember it by heart.

Yes, it sucks that your favorite show gets cancelled, and it sucks even more when it's taken off the schedule for good, but it has happened (to me and everyone else) tons of times, and you just need to move on, along with your tapes and DVDs.2 Hours Jave? Yeeah Right... Considering that when you take all the animated Shows that Disney has ever Produced or created and put this into half hour shows.. the Total Time of running just 1 show a day for half an hour would total less then 18 hours in any given 24 hour period (That's from Gummi Bears to Brandy and Mr. Whiskers..(and if you add in Jake Long, you would have 17.5 hours dedicated to say All Disney shows that are out there..(35 shows)

so what do you do with the other 6.5 hours? Easy.. That's where Jetix comes in.. After All if you think about it, Jetix has as Many shows...

but What I am Suggesting is more like a 12 hours (Old School) 12 hours (New School) Split.. (In short.. Balance..) that's really what I am suggesting here Jave.. Not where we have it all one way or another.. a Nice Even Split of Classical Disney and of course "The New stuff.. (so in short Yin/Yang)

Also One other point.. what about those who are under say 15 years of age.. and who have never seen these "Older" shows? What about then suggesting a release of DVD's and DTV's of these older shows.. After all Jave, More DTV's of the older shows would in essence give The Walt Disney Company a chance to increase their profit ratings and leave those customer who weren't lucky to "Video Tape' those Older shows, a Chance to purchase them..(After all Some fans who are not yet born won't know in 15 years what Kim Possible, Lilo and Stitch and even American Dragon: Jake Long Now would they?

after all Disney doesn't belong to a select few Jave, it belongs to everyone.


:coyote:

[Jave]

after all Disney doesn't belong to a select few Jave, it belongs to everyone.And where would the classic theatrical shorts go, then?

[Tay the Cat]

And where would the classic theatrical shorts go, then?

That's exactly what I'd like to know.

I'd watch the theatrical shorts over the DA shows any day.

[BrendaBat]

And where would the classic theatrical shorts go, then?They're on the Disney Treasure DVDs. I don't care if TD airs them because, if I can shell out $50, I can see them on DVD. All uncut and everyting :D

Like I said before, the most upsetting thing is that fans can't find the DA shows ANYWHERE now that they've been taken off the line-up. If Disney doesn't want to put them on TV, they could at least put them on DVD so that the people who want to see them can.

And the older shows could draw a young audience if given a chance (my 12-year-old sister loved watching Rescue Rangers when we first got ToonDisney).

[Tay the Cat]

They're on the Disney Treasure DVDs. I don't care if TD airs them because, if I can shell out $50, I can see them on DVD. All uncut and everyting :D



What about the people who are too poor to do that (like me)? How would we watch them? They should be at least on TD, or better yet, on the regular Disney Channel.

[GregX]

Gotta love some of the logic I've been seeing in this discussion. I don't have Toon Disney, my cable company doesn't carry it. I wish it did, and yeah, I'd like to watch many of the old shows.

But, as has been said before, I've seen commercials for Toon Disney, they never billed themselves as a retro station at all. Hell, look at how Cartoon Network started... I remember when it was almost all re-runs. They used to play Batman the Animated series reruns... not anymore.

Now, I am no fan of some of the suits at Disney, but from a business stand point, I understand why they're doing this. Disney is a big corporation, they're all about making money, and let's face it, they've been hit hard these past few years. The Jetix line-up makes a lot of money. More than the retuns did, and yes I'm as unhappy about Power Rangers being on Toon Disney as anyone, but whatcha gonna do.

Who knows, maybe Disney will one day create it's own "Boomerang" station. But we'll have to wait and see. Personally, I have a vested interest in seeing Toon Disney get bigger and increase it's budget for new shows. If "Gargoyles" ever comes back, or a spin-off, it'll most likely be aired on that network. So, what ever they can do to grow as a network, they should do.

Also, to whomever it was that said Disney belongs to everyone? Are you a stockholder? Or has Disney become a communist corporation and I missed that memo.

[Antiyonder]

I understand that they need to take old shows off the air to make room for the new shows, makes sense.

But explain why they need to air the majority of their shows 3-4 times a day. At the most it the shows that have more than 65 episodes (Aladdin, Digimon, Garfield & Friends, etc.) could do with an hour, but the rest should air once per day.

[tucsoncoyote]

Gotta love some of the logic I've been seeing in this discussion. I don't have Toon Disney, my cable company doesn't carry it. I wish it did, and yeah, I'd like to watch many of the old shows.

But, as has been said before, I've seen commercials for Toon Disney, they never billed themselves as a retro station at all. Hell, look at how Cartoon Network started... I remember when it was almost all re-runs. They used to play Batman the Animated series reruns... not anymore.

Now, I am no fan of some of the suits at Disney, but from a business stand point, I understand why they're doing this. Disney is a big corporation, they're all about making money, and let's face it, they've been hit hard these past few years. The Jetix line-up makes a lot of money. More than the retuns did, and yes I'm as unhappy about Power Rangers being on Toon Disney as anyone, but whatcha gonna do.

Who knows, maybe Disney will one day create it's own "Boomerang" station. But we'll have to wait and see. Personally, I have a vested interest in seeing Toon Disney get bigger and increase it's budget for new shows. If "Gargoyles" ever comes back, or a spin-off, it'll most likely be aired on that network. So, what ever they can do to grow as a network, they should do.

Also, to whomever it was that said Disney belongs to everyone? Are you a stockholder? Or has Disney become a communist corporation and I missed that memo.
ActuallY GregX, I said that Disney Belongs to everyone..(After all incase you haven't noted some folks want The Walt Disney Company to be "Communistic" yet There are some of us who believe that just the reverse is true.. Some of us believe that Disney should be a blend of both "Classical and Modern" Disney Animation..(Everything from those animated shorts that Javeman spouts about.). to the Most Modern shows.. (Including the "Tween and Teen Fare..")

Frankly I'm not a Stockholder, but rather a Concerned Consumer.. after all Disney hasn't been turning out what I would deem "Quality Material..."

Let me explain..:

Some of the fans realize the need for both Old and New Disney Shows..(We're not saying "Don't Come out with New Disney Material.. Just Don't come out with it as Often (or did you know Greg that Disney Channel is planning to release some 15 NEW shows over the next 4 years..(This was confirmed by Robert Iger (President of Disney and CEO of ABC) in the 3rd Quarter Statement..

Some of us feel that 15 shows in just under 4 years is a bit too much for even Disney to be producing for one channel.. Yet think about this.. 50% of those shows will be most likely animated and in effect those 7 to 8 shows that will be on Disney Channel over the Next 4 years will eventually propigate to Toon Disney in the Next 4 years after that (2008-2012..)

Yet to supposedly make room for those 8 shows.. 8 of the current shows on Toon Disney will have to be removed..(and these include shows that are currently running on Disney channel..)

Now some of the Live action shows are being cut back on Disney Channel, and in fact they have no real business being on Toon Disney (That's a given) but in essence if you took all the shows that have been produced for Disney Afternoon/Disney One/Too, One Saturday Morning, and in fact ABC Kids, and have placed them on a 24 hour schedule there are only 35 shows that Disney has ever produced since 1985..(or roughly 2 shows ever year..) Right now the Current Trend is that the Disney Company Plans to Accelerate this load to one show ever 3 months..(or 90 days). I think Disney corporation in this way isn't being competitive as being too much bravado.. In short they're looking at it as "Let's see how many shows we can slam onto our customers before they get tired of them".. so they make the shows Short (65 Episodes) and quick.. and that's really the wrong attitude.. Shows shouldn't be made for their Quickness. (otherwise why watch just the short run shows anyway.. You can't get used to them.. as soon as One show ends.. three more pop up in their place..

Disney indeed has been having a bad time, but I highly think the fans are not to blame here.. rather poor Disney Management is ... they need to realize that some fans don't get a chance to see all the shows in one showing (Hence the "incessent" re-run factor) and even then you can't see every last show..(Which then comes back to the fact that not all fans will be happy..

In conclusion let me just say that Disney is indeed puttiing new shows on to generate capital, but in converse they actually shorten the shelf life of their characters not lengthen them..(After all Can anyone name all the characters of Doug? Or Maybe Pepper Ann? How about Teamo Supremo? See that's just it.) Fans can't remember not because they don't want to but rather because of the Assembly Line nature of the status at The Disney Company..

after all Some of the current fans who are watching current shows are in 10 years time going to be "Out of the Age Bracket" when it comes to the shows they watched.. yet I am saying they want their kids to enjoy what they watched when they were Kids and Teenagers.. yet where will these shows be? I can tell you where.. They'll be sitting in the Disney Vaults.. Gathering dust.. Making No Money for the Company, even if it is for "The Nostalgia Value" (Disney won't produce the DVD's for these shows, because they don't think they're cost effective.. Yet that's where the fallacy lies..(After all if Disney has "Tons of Money, and they are turning over a profit, why not go out and produce what the fans of Older Disney shows want? After all They deserve the right to enjoy those episodes (even the ones they miss..(After all Javeman I know you say Get on with your life.. but have you ever had a Collection of Comic Books that are missing a few issues? Well that's the same thing fans feel if they miss a few episodes.. After all they're wanting to have a complete set.. Not just broken memories..I think what some of the fans are saying here is this.. If Disney had produced these shows and put them onto DVD, and charged them equitably.. I would go out and buy them..(After all Collectors of Shows Like Star Trek Plunk down their Cash to get the complete series.. why Can't Disney fans.. After all they deserve to have a complete set.. not just those episodes they were Lucky enough to record..


that's really All I need to say..

:coyote:

[tucsoncoyote]

I understand that they need to take old shows off the air to make room for the new shows, makes sense.

But explain why they need to air the majority of their shows 3-4 times a day. At the most it the shows that have more than 65 episodes (Aladdin, Digimon, Garfield & Friends, etc.) could do with an hour, but the rest should air once per day.Ah Now we're getting down to the real problem.. and it is called "Repeatibility.." and Antiyonder's correct on this issue..

Yes Why Indeed must Disney have to run (not only On Toon Disney, but on Disney Channel) shows 3 or even 4 times a day..? After all Why have a show run at 5 PM when you can have a VCR record it.. then rather to have to sit up at 1 AM to watch the Same show again without recording it? and enjoy it? (After all if Disney wasn't playing "Musical Chairs" with it's scheduling, and had each half hour or hour block dedicated to just one show, well then wouldn't it make sense for the lack of Repeatibility ? (After all Doesn't anyone here get tired of seeing the same show 3 or 4 times in a row in a day? Just feel how those 2-6 year olds must feel when they watch 10 hours of Playhouse Disney.)

:coyote:

[GregX]

And once again, who says these shows will never be released on DVD?

The release of the first season of "Gargoyles" proves otherwise. Come February, Disney will go over the sales figures and decide whether or not to release the second season. Who knows, they may also decide that the DVDs of other DA shows will be profitable.

I'm sure you'll get your other shows. I think it'd be fun to have Darkwing Duck on DVD.

After all Can anyone name all the characters of Doug? Or Maybe Pepper Ann?

Um, why would I want to? I didn't care for those shows.

As for the rest of your post, this is how corporations and networks work. There's nothing new there. I don't see anyone complaining about Cartoon Network not airind reruns of Batman or Superman.

[Jave]

Ah Now we're getting down to the real problem.. and it is called "Repeatibility.." and Antiyonder's correct on this issue..

Yes Why Indeed must Disney have to run (not only On Toon Disney, but on Disney Channel) shows 3 or even 4 times a day..? After all Why have a show run at 5 PM when you can have a VCR record it.. then rather to have to sit up at 1 AM to watch the Same show again without recording it? and enjoy it? (After all if Disney wasn't playing "Musical Chairs" with it's scheduling, and had each half hour or hour block dedicated to just one show, well then wouldn't it make sense for the lack of Repeatibility ? (After all Doesn't anyone here get tired of seeing the same show 3 or 4 times in a row in a day? Just feel how those 2-6 year olds must feel when they watch 10 hours of Playhouse Disney.)

:coyote:Having a 24-hour schedule with entire different programming is ridiculous. Why would anyone wake up at 3:00 AM to watch Gummi Bears or Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers?

[tucsoncoyote]

Having a 24-hour schedule with entire different programming is ridiculous. Why would anyone wake up at 3:00 AM to watch Gummi Bears or Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers?True but why have anyone Wake up at 2 AM to Watch Recess or Lilo and Stich.. That's the same logic.. That's why until September 2002, they had on Disney Channel, Vault Disney where they showed Classic Animation and Movies (Like Herbie goes to Monte Carlo..)

but then what is even more ridiculuous is literally what I like to call "Force Feeding" the Viewers shows.. 4 or more times in a day..(After all If you were 6 years old Jave, would you want to watch Stanley on Playhouse Disney 5 times in a row? (After all Seeing a Show 1 time a day for a 2-6 year old is okay.. seeing it 3 times over a 10 hour period isn't... but still the fan who wanted to watch that Chip and Dale's Rescue Ranger show? He could still Video Tape it..(Or better yet, Tivo it..)

PS Jave, Have some cocoa moo, It's soothing.....

:coyote:

[paf]

After all, if you really want to point fingers at anyone.. Point fingers at the Programmers and Executives who control Toon Disney, After all they have 48 Half Hour Slots to fill in any given day.. There's more then enough space here to compromise and to in fact Keep Everyone happy... after all That's one reason why I say Disney needs to get out of this attitude of "newer is better " routine and get back to basics.. After all Here's a Good case point where The Walt Disney Company is losing fans left right and center because of one important factor they fail to realize.... All viewers of Toon Disney, Disney Channel, and ABC Family are indeed getting older.. and rather then Catering to just one Group, The Walt Disney Company needs to realize that there are a number of Viewers of Varying ages out there and in fact they need to realize that the Older Fans of Disney's Older Shows need their space too.. (After all It's called Common Sense here.. Frankly I would like to see Toon Disney, Disney Channel, and ABC Family get away from their Silly Policies that state incorrectly that "The Company knows Better.. It does not.. The fans know better here.. and that's all the more reason why fans need to stick together and agree on a compromise of both old and new shows.. (After all, Balanace here is the Key to Disney's Success, but with them completely Vaccilating between Older fans and Newer showers.. there has to be a compromise for everyone to agree upon...)

in short.. Balance here is the key to Disney's Success, and in fact Lack of Balance is what is happening now.. Disney has swung the pendulum too far in one direction, it's time for us, the Fans to speak our mind to the Company and state that A balance must Be maintained.. between Older "Classical Disney Afternoon and Disney Toons" and the Newer Material that they are willing to offer..

In conclusion here... why can't we all just get along and focus on the Problem that is facing Us right now? And that is that Disney is Losing Fans.. And in a big way.. I think if we take our energies and in fact complain to the company causing this problem it would most benefit us all.

That's really All I need to say...

:coyote:[/QUOTE]

I agree with you 100% as I said in my post I have no problem with Jetix, just hope they don't add anymore hours to it, five is enough. I don't really have any problems with the newer stuff, but as I said in my post I do have a problem with these airing on Toon Disney and The Disney Channel while many of the classics aren't seen at all. What you said about there being 48 slots to fill a day is so true, well actually 38, ten belong to Jetix. There should be plenty of room for the new as well as the old if Toon Disney wanted to schedule it that way. But instead we get these bonus stacks which are just saturations of the same programs. Perhaps if they weren't showing Recess like twenty times a day (okay its not that many it just seems like it to me) as well as showing House of Mouse and the Proud Family about as many times there could still be room for the classics such as DUcktales, Darkwing Duck, Goof Troop, ETC. The new shows aren't the problem, Jetix isn't the problem its the over saturation that the programming excecs are giving us of just a few choice shows. There is plenty of room in this line up for all these shows, provided Toon Disney wanted to give it to us, that's the key.

[Antiyonder]

And once again, who says these shows will never be released on DVD?

The release of the first season of "Gargoyles" proves otherwise. Come February, Disney will go over the sales figures and decide whether or not to release the second season. Who knows, they may also decide that the DVDs of other DA shows will be profitable.

I'm sure you'll get your other shows. I think it'd be fun to have Darkwing Duck on DVD.

"As for the rest of your post, this is how corporations and networks work. There's nothing new there. I don't see anyone complaining about Cartoon Network not airind reruns of Batman or Superman."

1. It's been guessed that Gargoyles got a release, because unlike the other Disney Afternoon programs Gargoyles has an annual convention.

2. The reason why no one is complaining about the lack of Batman and Superman is because Warner Bros is putting them out on DVD. As of January 25 this year, there will be Batman The Animated Series Volume 2 and Superman Volume 1.

[tucsoncoyote]

agree with you 100% as I said in my post I have no problem with Jetix, just hope they don't add anymore hours to it, five is enough. I don't really have any problems with the newer stuff, but as I said in my post I do have a problem with these airing on Toon Disney and The Disney Channel while many of the classics aren't seen at all. What you said about there being 48 slots to fill a day is so true, well actually 38, ten belong to Jetix. There should be plenty of room for the new as well as the old if Toon Disney wanted to schedule it that way. But instead we get these bonus stacks which are just saturations of the same programs. Perhaps if they weren't showing Recess like twenty times a day (okay its not that many it just seems like it to me) as well as showing House of Mouse and the Proud Family about as many times there could still be room for the classics such as DUcktales, Darkwing Duck, Goof Troop, ETC. The new shows aren't the problem, Jetix isn't the problem its the over saturation that the programming excecs are giving us of just a few choice shows. There is plenty of room in this line up for all these shows, provided Toon Disney wanted to give it to us, that's the key.Well that's just my point.. if Disney were to air even 1 episode for Each Old and Modern Disney Show (From say 12 midnight to midnight the next day.. Classical Disney shows (From DA and All those would cover at least an area that would run up to 5:30 PM in the Evening.. then from 6PM On you could have Jetix, and still have an hour left over for Those animated shorts..(and then just repeat the next show in the set over again..(The only problem is that some shows (Ducktales, Recess, Darkwing Duck,Aladdin, and Gargoyles would go slightly beyond the 13 week period of run (But still if you did this some of these shows would repeat maybe 1 or 2 times in a given year.. compared to those that are on a 65 episode footing (which of course would run and repeat every 4 months (13 weeks)

that's the simplistic function there and in fact since fans have VCR's DVD-R's and Tivo, Recording these shows would be easy..(AFter all that's the simplistic Logistics of keeping fans happy.. Give them what they want.. and who would complain?

:coyote:

[paf]

Man, you all are starting to sound old. Very old. Not liking new shows and wishing old ones would come back? I'm sorry, but am I the only one without the "Nick at Nite" mentality? I don't watch a lot of Toon Disney, but I watch enough to know that the new cartoons are aimed at children and I can accept that. In 10 years there will probably be a group of 20-somethings wishing "Recess" and "Llyod in Space" were back. Disney always had a history with children's programming. You should eiher keep your mouth shut until another hit comes along, or move on.

Running 10 year old cartoons into infinity isn't a good business pratice at all. Don't you realize these have a nastalgia appeal for an increseaing small market? With new programs the network gets a chance to franchise (aka make money). If you want older cartoons either tape them or shell out the cash for DVDs. No network can put all their eggs into a basket that doesn't churn out new product. How can they ever be competitive in the cable market if Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network both have new shows, and Disney is still airing old ones? Old shows are great, but part of keeping their charm is by pulling them off the air. "Gargoyles" only did so well because of a 10 year absence from the air. It made demand grow.

Until you step outside of fan's eye, you'll never understand why these "BIG BAD COMPANIES" keep trying to stick it to you. Cable television is about making money. Its a business. Old cartoons have only so much money to make. You don't like the new ones, fine don't watch. Someone else will, and money can still be made. All I ever hear is negative complaining and not one single postive idea. Even if you don't like programming director's outcomes, you could still construct positive dialogue that might actually get you noticed at an innovator....someone that took the lemons and made the lemonade. Instead you all whine. Keep your WAH WAHS to yourself and move people.
What you fail to realize and what many of us including myself feel is the programs like Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, Goof Troop and Rescue Rangeers are timeless. If I had children I would want them to watch these types of great programs, they were fun, entertaining and the stories never got old. Personally I don't care how old they maybe, ten, fifteen, twenty years, they will still stand the test of time, and still be entertaining. I like the new shows like House of Mouse and Kim Possible, and I think they too have a timeless appeal to them. But do I want these other programs forgotten, at the expense of progress, no, after all I'm sure you have heard of a little gem of a sitcom called I Love Lucy, or not as much of a gem but still a cult endeared by many Gilligan's Island, one of these is over fifty years old, the other thirty years old, yet they are still seen in many markets including a cable network called TV Land, and to this day gain new viewers and new fans. So tell me, does good entertainment really get old? I would have to say it never does, good entertainment, including good quality animation never gets old but stands the test of time, and remains timeless. These cartoons are timeless, and deserve to be remembered and brought to new genterations to come.

[GregX]

1. It's been guessed that Gargoyles got a release, because unlike the other Disney Afternoon programs Gargoyles has an annual convention..
Yeah, I know. I'm a regular attendee of the annual convention and was even the Chairman of the 2003 Gathering in New York City.

Greg has said so as well. From an e-mail a while back...

Thanks. And congrats to all of you as well. IT WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT THIS AMAZING FANDOM. And you can tell everyone I said so.

He also said that if the DVDs for Gargoyles do well, Disney would consider releasing some of their other series on DVD as well.

I'm confident it will happen. Just cause you don't have it now doesn't mean it won't happen.


2. The reason why no one is complaining about the lack of Batman and Superman is because Warner Bros is putting them out on DVD. As of January 25 this year, there will be Batman The Animated Series Volume 2 and Superman Volume 1.
But no one complained before those series were announced for DVD sets either.

[tucsoncoyote]

What you fail to realize and what many of us including myself feel is the programs like Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, Goof Troop and Rescue Rangeers are timeless. If I had children I would want them to watch these types of great programs, they were fun, entertaining and the stories never got old. Personally I don't care how old they maybe, ten, fifteen, twenty years, they will still stand the test of time, and still be entertaining. I like the new shows like House of Mouse and Kim Possible, and I think they too have a timeless appeal to them. But do I want these other programs forgotten, at the expense of progress, no, after all I'm sure you have heard of a little gem of a sitcom called I Love Lucy, or not as much of a gem but still a cult endeared by many Gilligan's Island, one of these is over fifty years old, the other thirty years old, yet they are still seen in many markets including a cable network called TV Land, and to this day gain new viewers and new fans. So tell me, does good entertainment really get old? I would have to say it never does, good entertainment, including good quality animation never gets old but stands the test of time, and remains timeless. These cartoons are timeless, and deserve to be remembered and brought to new genterations to come.'

And that's why some of us are fighting for that right paf. We realize what you have all along.. that Countless Generations yet to come have the right to enjoy this same Quality entertrainment that we have come to enjoy and love, (and yes Like you said it's timeless quality. That's the reason why I keep stating.. Disney isn't for a Select Few Collectors of Disney Movie Shorts and animated featureetts, Television Animation and Feature Length movies.. I think Walt Disney Summed it up best with this quote.. and this is where we should leave this be..


When Walt saw one of the conductors on the railroad line handle some guests rudely, he went to the man's boss.
"See if you can't give that fellow a better understanding of the kind of business we're in. See if you can't cheer him up. If he feels sour, he shouldn't work here. We are selling happiness here." Now put this in the same perspective of any Disney fan that would like to have these shows on DVD.. Has Disney treated the fans of these shows with fairness? No they have not. Have they treated us with Kindness? No they have not.. So should the folks that are running the Programming and DVD Releases be working here.. Apparently not.. After all they have not really left the fans happy and content, and that's still part of The Walt Disney Company's Business. Wheter it's treating it's customers at any of it's Disney resorts with Kindness or Caring, or giving Disney fans what they want and desire.. After all paf, you as a Fan of Disney and your children yet to come deserve the richness that is Disney Quality enterrtainment, not just a select few folks who can afford it.. After all The Walt Disney Company is in fact a Customer service company.. we are the ones who spend our money for the soul purprose of being happy.. and by doing so we're making the Disney Company happy, by letting them do what they need to do best.. and that is giving us quality entertrainment not only to ourselves.. but also to future generations who haven't seen these shows..

If that's what Disney is all about.. then Maybe Walt Taught me a good lesson.. Always treat your customers with respect and they come back again and again..

:coyote:

[KingMinos]

'


If that's what Disney is all about.. then Maybe Walt Taught me a good lesson.. Always treat your customers with respect and they come back again and again..

:coyote:
Tucson... I believe Walt did indeed teach you a good lesson. One I think quite a few learn...

And since we're the customers - we deserve no less than respect from Disney (on DC, TD, or even on DVD!).

[Jave]

but then what is even more ridiculuous is literally what I like to call "Force Feeding" the Viewers shows.. 4 or more times in a day..(After all If you were 6 years old Jave, would you want to watch Stanley on Playhouse Disney 5 times in a row? (After all Seeing a Show 1 time a day for a 2-6 year old is okay.. seeing it 3 times over a 10 hour period isn't... but still the fan who wanted to watch that Chip and Dale's Rescue Ranger show? He could still Video Tape it..(Or better yet, Tivo it..)There's no such thing as "force-feeding" in television. No one is telling you what or what not to watch.


PS Jave, Have some cocoa moo, It's soothing.....Cocoa Moo has been proven to have poisonous components among its ingredients that make people dizzy and nauseous. It also induces migraine and tummy aches and in some cases it even provokes side effects such as seeing everything with a blueish tone. It's being taken off the market as we speak.

[tucsoncoyote]

There's no such thing as "force-feeding" in television. No one is telling you what or what not to watch.But then you forget about the Simpsons.. Fox has literally shoved that show down People's throat for 16 years straight.. and in fact if you look over at General Animation even some real die hard Simpsons fans are getting tired about the old hat that is being handed them..(After all Disney fans are a bit more savvy then that..) they want what they enjoy.. not what is given to them even if the show has been literally force fed them..(16 years is way to long for the Simpsons..) and frankly some fans do literally force feed themselves..(sadly though you're starving for attention Jave, and frankly a lot of Disney fans just want their due..they don't want to hear mumbo jumbo like you're spouting.) They want the Disney Company to give them Answers.. But The Disney Company doesn't even want to give it's fans the time of day and want to answer some rather what I call "Serious" questions here.. especially about Toon Disney..That's just not force feeding here.. it's Ramrodding.. and the fans have the right to know..)



Cocoa Moo has been proven to have poisonous components among its ingredients that make people dizzy and nauseous. It also induces migraine and tummy aches and in some cases it even provokes side effects such as seeing everything with a blueish tone. It's being taken off the market as we speak.Frankly Jave I'm going to ignore that last Comment.. Frankly Chocolate milk (Cocoa Moo) is nutritious and Delicious.. but we're not talking cocoa moo here.

Frankly What we are talking here is what the fans want.. and what fans need from Disney (Especially Toon Disney is what I call "Customer confidence.."

I mean today I saw something that made me ponder... A DVD Boxed Set of MacGuyver..(that's right Laugh Jave if you want) but they were offering it to those fans who wanted it.. after all MacGuyver is one of those shows that was quality in nature.. and in fact the show lasted 7 seasons on ABC.. and it had good ratings...

now the point is this.. Shouldn't Disney fans of DA Afternoon shows really want what they deserve? I think they do.. After all Jave, they have voiced their Opinions and they are unhappy. They want to be happy. They don't want someone like yourself telling them what they can and Can't watch..(After all they have choices too..)

but the bottom line is this.. if they wanted to pick and choose, they could and they should be able to .. Not what some company dictates.. but rather what they choose. After all This is a Democracy here Jave, not a Communistic Dictatorship on what Disney wants.. Disney is an American Icon.. and it should have American Values.. Yet as of Late, Business has become more "Dictator Like" and in fact the fans don't have a say here.. and that's what is leaving them unhappy. They want what they deserve.. Paf is a good example here... He wants to have those Classical DA Shows so that he can have his Children enjoy them..(After all Paf's got the right idea.. Those shows that were on, should be enjoyed by the Generations yet unborn..(After all, it's his children's right to view what they want.. and if they want to watch Darkwing Duck, Ducktales, or even Aladdin, I say, Give them what they want..)

After all Jave, you're looking a bit Astigmatically here.. You're not looking at the "Long Term scope of the problem.. just the short term.. and it's this short term thinking that usually gets businesses and people who comment like this into trouble.. After all they don't see the cliff till they have fallen off of it..

but as for those fans who want those Classic DA Shows, I say to Disney, Let them have them.. They have been faithful to you.. they've spent their time enjoying the show, and in fact they want to spend their hard earned cash to have a part of Disney history that will be remembered not tossed aside like yesterday's diaper..

(I think I have summed it up here when I say it best.. Disney belongs not to just a select few, but rather to everyone and their future generations to come.)

(And that's really all I need to say.)

:coyote

[tucsoncoyote]

Tucson... I believe Walt did indeed teach you a good lesson. One I think quite a few learn...

And since we're the customers - we deserve no less than respect from Disney (on DC, TD, or even on DVD!).I agree there KingMinos, Read anything that Walt has to say about Disney and he's not talking about making money here... he's intereted in one thing.. and one thing only... The happiness of the Disney fan...

That's a Valued lession that The Present Day Disney Company has failed to keep. They've failed to listen to their fans.. they've failed to listen to what they want.. (and I think that Hollywood reporter article from Last month was written just to make Disney look like they were listening to us.. Apparently they're listening to no one but the Ka-Ching ka-Ching of their Bling Bling..(Wallets)

Frankly Disney needs a leader that is more open and empathetically listening... Walt in fact went out into the hordes of Fans at Disneyland (when he was able and listened to their complaints.. they told. Mr. Disney what the problems were.. and Mr. Walt Disney did indeed fix them..

yet in today's world of Disney they (The Walt Disney Company) doesn't listen. to it's customers.. after all they're the ones paying the money here..(Not the Company) and in fact Disney needs to listen to it's fans.. after all I know if I were in Mr. Eisner's Position, I wouldn't be looking at just the short term aspect, but the long Term as well (Walt Disney always looked at the long term aspect and he wanted things to be good for the fans now as he did for their Children..(Paf's example is a good one.. He wants to buy these shows for his kids.. they should have a right to enjoy them.. Isn't Disney living up to the "Long Term aspect" of this? Apparently not.)

that's why Disney needs new Creative ideas and New Fresh people in its' midst.. they need to be more receptive to the fans that are out there.. and they should be listening.. after all Good Customer service comes from those who listen.. Anything else, and you're just hearing what you want to hear..)

And this one's to Jave, If you are such an Economic Wizard.. if the Customer is always right, do you tend to ignore them and hear what you want to hear? or what they really have to say..? After all this is about Customer happiness and good customer service here, not Profit and Loss Margin (That's Economics 201, and that's down the hall to the right..)

:coyote:

[GregX]

Okay, not debating this anymore. Someone needed to be the cold, hard voice of reality. Not going to get into this anymore with people who have no idea how large corporations and networks want. I'm going to tell you what is, not what you want to hear.

You want the old shows played all the time, and say that's what the fans want. Unfortunatly the Jetix blocks are getting higher ratings than the old reruns can.

And as for DVDs, I keep telling you people what you need to do. It worked for "Gargoyles", but no you don't want to listen. You'd rather just sit at your computers and whine all day. We wanted our DVDs and we didn't whine all day, we got organized and we did something about it. And it worked. It worked very, very well.

So, nope. You get no sympathy from me.

[Jave]

Okay, not debating this anymore. Someone needed to be the cold, hard voice of reality. Not going to get into this anymore with people who have no idea how large corporations and networks want. I'm going to tell you what is, not what you want to hear.

You want the old shows played all the time, and say that's what the fans want. Unfortunatly the Jetix blocks are getting higher ratings than the old reruns can.

And as for DVDs, I keep telling you people what you need to do. It worked for "Gargoyles", but no you don't want to listen. You'd rather just sit at your computers and whine all day. We wanted our DVDs and we didn't whine all day, we got organized and we did something about it. And it worked. It worked very, very well.

So, nope. You get no sympathy from me.I agree.

Quite frankly, it's getting not just ridiculous but just annoying to try to state an opinion in this thread. You state what happens to be an opinion or a personal POV, you get countered by a long rant that does nothing but repeat the things that have been stated so far over and over again, which are nothing but complains.

Geez, tucson. You make a joke about this whole "Cocoa Moo" thing aimed directly at me and when I make another one aimed at you, you get all offended because apparently, my comment offended chocolated milk. Then you say we're not talking about that here, when it was you who brought into the conversation.

Repeat after me: "The Customer is Always Right" is a policy, NOT A FACT, NOT A RULE. No company has that phrase written on paper as part of their rules. True, they use it as a lever to get to costumers to prefer, but having it written on a sign on a wall is not the same to actually practizing it. If they did have it written as a rule, chances are people will take advantage of it and sue the company for millions. But if you go to court and all you have to defend yourself is "The Costumer is Always Right"... you have nothing. Nada. Zero. Zilch. NOTHING.

Like GregX, I'm out of this thread. Trying to argue with someone whose logic and reasoning doesn't listen to the facts of reality is pointless. So there's really no need for me to speak anymore here. Bye.

PS tucson: I never called myself an economic wizard, you're putting words in my mouth.

[paf]

Okay, not debating this anymore. Someone needed to be the cold, hard voice of reality. Not going to get into this anymore with people who have no idea how large corporations and networks want. I'm going to tell you what is, not what you want to hear.

You want the old shows played all the time, and say that's what the fans want. Unfortunatly the Jetix blocks are getting higher ratings than the old reruns can.

And as for DVDs, I keep telling you people what you need to do. It worked for "Gargoyles", but no you don't want to listen. You'd rather just sit at your computers and whine all day. We wanted our DVDs and we didn't whine all day, we got organized and we did something about it. And it worked. It worked very, very well.

So, nope. You get no sympathy from me.
At least I don't think I am I'm just trying to state my case that we shouldn't sacriface the classics to for the sake of progress. Did I at any time say get rid of Jetix, no I am with you on this Jetix gets great ratings, as I said in my original post perhaps Disney should consider giving Jetix its own channel since it has been so successful. Have I said get rid of the new stuff, no but tell me something how much ratings could these porssibly be getting for TD when their also airing on The Disney Channel at the same time, unlike Jetix this doesn't seem like a huge ratings grabber. As for these classics being placed on DVD why is it so out of the question, I've been to Amazon and guess what several of the episodes of Ducktailes, Rescue Rangers, Gooftroop and others can be found on VHS, if Disney can take the time to put episodes on VHS why is DVD so out of the question. Just a thought to keep in mind, from what I have seen here there would be a definate market if they chose to do so. Just my opinion.

[CookieS]

I've been to Amazon and guess what several of the episodes of Ducktailes, Rescue Rangers, Gooftroop and others can be found on VHS, if Disney can take the time to put episodes on VHS why is DVD so out of the question. Just a thought to keep in mind, from what I have seen here there would be a definate market if they chose to do so. Just my opinion.

Now we're talking about two different things: DVDs and television airings. DVD releases are planned only if there is a viable market for such things. The question as to if recent "classics" have a big enough market is debatable. Afterall, compare the amount of people willing to purchase a Mickey Mouse black & white anthology to the range willing to buy a season's worth of Rescue Rangers. My guess is that more people will by the Mickey DVD because it has had longer exposure. When we talk about an 80s-90s cartoon that aired in the afternoon, when most people over 18 were not watching, you can see the very limited exposure some of these shows got. Replays on Toon Disney (a channel that has yet to be in every basic cable market) isn't exactly going to push it into the limelight again either. Don't get me wrong. I'd love for Disney to have a running collection of their original television series, but its a risk for the company finicially. Most of these shows would call for multi-disc sets, and those are expensive to make and harder to sell that single disc movies. They're more than likely going to see a made-for-TV or DVD-direct movie than a complete series.

I also empathize with tuscancoyote's mention of Walt's vision. Walt was the true imagineer and he wasn't about making money...but his lawyers and sales department was. The are lots of poor people with great ideas and ideals, but unless you can use your talents to make the money, you'll fail as a buiness. Disney is a business. While it does try to keep customers happy, the goal of the company is to earn money. Programming decisions are usually made by people who are not fans or animators. In those cases, changes are made based on statistics. To people like us, that have a respect for animation, its hard to understand how such heartless things can be done. I'm not defending Disney's programming decisions, but I have to say that approaching this through the eyes of an animation fan is just going to make you angry and annoyed.

[tucsoncoyote]

Now we're talking about two different things: DVDs and television airings. DVD releases are planned only if there is a viable market for such things. The question as to if recent "classics" have a big enough market is debatable. Afterall, compare the amount of people willing to purchase a Mickey Mouse black & white anthology to the range willing to buy a season's worth of Rescue Rangers. My guess is that more people will by the Mickey DVD because it has had longer exposure. When we talk about an 80s-90s cartoon that aired in the afternoon, when most people over 18 were not watching, you can see the very limited exposure some of these shows got. Replays on Toon Disney (a channel that has yet to be in every basic cable market) isn't exactly going to push it into the limelight again either. Don't get me wrong. I'd love for Disney to have a running collection of their original television series, but its a risk for the company finicially. Most of these shows would call for multi-disc sets, and those are expensive to make and harder to sell that single disc movies. They're more than likely going to see a made-for-TV or DVD-direct movie than a complete series.

I also empathize with tuscancoyote's mention of Walt's vision. Walt was the true imagineer and he wasn't about making money...but his lawyers and sales department was. The are lots of poor people with great ideas and ideals, but unless you can use your talents to make the money, you'll fail as a buiness. Disney is a business. While it does try to keep customers happy, the goal of the company is to earn money. Programming decisions are usually made by people who are not fans or animators. In those cases, changes are made based on statistics. To people like us, that have a respect for animation, its hard to understand how such heartless things can be done. I'm not defending Disney's programming decisions, but I have to say that approaching this through the eyes of an animation fan is just going to make you angry and annoyed.Very good logic there CookieS, and in fact though I do want to point out one thing... Disney could take a Calculated risk with these Afternoon shows..(After all They could just as Easily take these shows and in fact put them out in "Boxed sets (Much like MacGuyver, The Flintsonts, The simpsons, or any Television show..(After all we are talking about "renewed Capital Here.."

But Yes Thank you for Realizing that Walt was indeed the Imagineer here.. but you also have to remember that back in the 1950's, 1960's and even 1970's before DA, Walt kept a fine balance between "Imaginative Creations" and "Business Practices." He never tried to mix the two..(He let the Business aspect indeed run the Programming, and stuff like that.. while he and his animators focused on the "Creative side" of this equation..

However in the last 7 years, though this edge at Disney has been sort of lost here.. and that's really where the Heart of the matter lies.. (After all In today's world of "DVD and VHS" Disney needs to take some (and I emphasize some) financial risk and release these shows either back onto another channel, or better yet, release those DA Shows out onto DVD (either/Or). After all Disney does have a major stake here when it comes to DVD and VHS Sales. and in fact it's a simple common sense thought that wouold be a Win-win Situation for everyone if Disney did either of these things..

But apparently some folks don't (or woruld rather not) like these things to happen CookieS, and it's these folks who are a bit short-sighted here..(Astigmatic as I call them) in the fact that Disney is actually sitting in a Positive situation right now, they need to make it more positive for the fan.. and Enjoyable too..

That's why some of us fans are banding together.. to express our Disapproval of what is going on.. and in fact not one fan can change a company.. but millions and millions can..(After all I work with other Disney-related groups and in fact we know what is really going on.. but we need to do more, to change Disney for the better.. so that everyone can be happy.. After all CookieS, there are a lot of Angry fans out there.. and I am just one of many...

also as a Side note to Javeman, who has decided to give up on trying to say we're not being realistic here? And that I put words into his mouth? Need I remind him of this Particular post (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1544650&postcount=31)(Paragraph 2 comes to mind) :


Most of what you said is completely bogus in business terms. I study economics, so I know about these things. You can't define "people that like a show" because it is a number that can vary from a few to millions and millions of people. A show you may think sucks on its first season, others might think it's a masterpiece. So you can't speak for all of us.Well Jave you may not be a financial wizard or an economics wizard.. that's true, but have you ever thought of becoming a "People's Wizard?" That's what I am.. I understand people, I understand their frustrations.. when things don't go their way (After all I've work probably a harder job then most folks realize.. (I worked dealing with Customers.... and Rule one of the Customer is ... The Customer is always right even when they are wrong..) You can't change that rule.. that's a given.. but Rule 2 of the Customer's Rights reads..."While the Customer might not be right, the Person helping the customer must try to help them understand why this is ..." that's a very important rule in my book, after all I am both a Customer, and a consumer and a fan of the Walt Disney Company.. I can empathize with what is going on here.. and that in short, makes me understand how the fans feel.. Angry, upset, frustrated.. And the bottom line is this.. No amount of Money that a Business has, is going to leave a fan (or Customer ) happy unless you meet Rule 1... and leave them happy... That's something That Walt Disney Company hasn't done.. but needs to do.. After all sure it's a calculated risk, but It's a risk Disney should take.. after all they don't want to go out of business now do they?

I think not.. and I rest my Case..

:coyote:

[BigKPFan76]

All I gotta say is, if a company treats me like trash, they aint gettin one red cent out of me! It's safe to say that Disney has crossed that line, IMO. They just keep screwing up by refusing to renew popular shows and continue to bring more trash on the airwaves. If a company wants to suceed, they BETTER treat their fans and customers right...it may not be a written rule...but by golly.........It's just the right thing to do!

[Tay the Cat]

All I gotta say is, if a company treats me like trash, they aint gettin one red cent out of me! It's safe to say that Disney has crossed that line, IMO. They just keep screwing up by refusing to renew popular shows and continue to bring more trash on the airwaves. If a company wants to suceed, they BETTER treat their fans and customers right...it may not be a written rule...but by golly.........It's just the right thing to do!

Don't blame Disney the company. I'd tell you who to blame, but I'd be breaking the rules.

[BigKPFan76]

Don't blame Disney the company. I'd tell you who to blame, but I'd be breaking the rules.
I'm not blaming Disney the company, I'm blaming the people who run the company...........It saves me from having to mention names.

[Jave]

Guys... have you stop and think about the good thing about this change?

Hear me out. Shortly before the Disney Treasures were announced, Disney removed the classic shorts from their schedule. Looney Tunes were permanently removed from CN shortly before the LTGC DVDs were released. Futurama and Family Guy were both released on DVD shortly after the series were cancelled or announced their cancellation... you see the pattern here?

The fact that they removed the shows from the schedule might actually mean they are planning a release of some of these shows. It's not something too far-fetched, because the logic of "Now that this show is getting a DVD, there's no need to keep it on the schedule" is something that invades lots and lots of companies.

Of course, this is just a personal theory, but think about it... this might be GOOD...

[Tay the Cat]

Guys... have you stop and think about the good thing about this change?

Hear me out. Shortly before the Disney Treasures were announced, Disney removed the classic shorts from their schedule. Looney Tunes were permanently removed from CN shortly before the LTGC DVDs were released. Futurama and Family Guy were both released on DVD shortly after the series were cancelled or announced their cancellation... you see the pattern here?

The fact that they removed the shows from the schedule might actually mean they are planning a release of some of these shows. It's not something too far-fetched, because the logic of "Now that this show is getting a DVD, there's no need to keep it on the schedule" is something that invades lots and lots of companies.

Of course, this is just a personal theory, but think about it... this might be GOOD...

You just might be correct.

[Tommy Lawson]

And the "Jetix is staying on Toon Disney" argument just keeps getting stronger, from the ratings release about the actual series premiere of W.I.T.C.H. on Monday:


The series' Monday debut on Toon Disney garnered double- and triple-digit gains versus year ago numbers with all key demographics including kids 2-11 (+120%, 1.1/210,000 vs. 0.5/83,000), kids 6-11 (+160%, 1.3/147,000 vs. 0.5/53,000), boys 2-11 (+143%, 1.7/164,000 vs. 0.7/61,000), boys 6-11 (+80%, 1.8/114,000 vs. 1.0/53,000), girls 2-11 (+67%, 0.5/45,000 vs. 0.3/22,000) and girls 6-11 (0.6/33,000 vs. 0.0/0). The "W.I.T.C.H." premiere on Toon Disney was also up over the prior four week average with kids 6-11 (+30%, 1.3/147,000 vs. 1.0/110,000), boys 2-11 (+13%, 1.7/164,000 vs. 1.5/147,000) and boys 6-11 (+50%, 1.8/114,000 vs. 1.2/76,000).

[tucsoncoyote]

Guys... have you stop and think about the good thing about this change?

Hear me out. Shortly before the Disney Treasures were announced, Disney removed the classic shorts from their schedule. Looney Tunes were permanently removed from CN shortly before the LTGC DVDs were released. Futurama and Family Guy were both released on DVD shortly after the series were cancelled or announced their cancellation... you see the pattern here?

The fact that they removed the shows from the schedule might actually mean they are planning a release of some of these shows. It's not something too far-fetched, because the logic of "Now that this show is getting a DVD, there's no need to keep it on the schedule" is something that invades lots and lots of companies.

Of course, this is just a personal theory, but think about it... this might be GOOD...Well that may be true Jave, but then I must direct you to this article (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/entertainment/story.asp?j=131051956&p=y3yx5z66z)I found today courtesy of Disney...

and in fact this comes back to the issue of at least one Toon Disney show.. (The Legend of Tarzan) , and you'll see how this will affect this..






Disney bosses scrap tsunami-related projects
01/20/2005 - 18:07:58

Disney bosses have scrapped work on the upcoming Johnny Tsunami movie out of respect for the victims of the December 26 Indian Ocean disaster.

The sensitive studio executives have also axed all shows that feature earthquakes or scenes of tidal waves so as not to offend those still traumatised by the real-life disaster, which left more than 200,000 dead.

These include an upcoming episode of Lilo & Stitch: The Series on the Disney Channel, which features an earthquake.

Meanwhile, CBS bosses have scrapped plans to run a repeat of hit show CSI: Miami, which features a tsunami.
The original episode ran a month before the tsunami hit.

Now How does this relate back to The Legend of Tarzan? Well if you check the actual stories.. there is one episode that involves an Earthquake (and Subsequent Tsunami) and in fact Disney will have to remove that episode as well..(In order to keep with their Policy that has been stated above..

So out of the Goodness of their Hearts, the Walt Disney company has taken at least 1 movie, and two episodes of two different shows (one of them being on Toon Disney) just because they feel to be "respectful". (But eventually (Some six months later, that episode will air.. after the news has been forgotten. )

Well Sadly if that is the Case, then anytime a disaster strikes shouldn't Disney not run a show? (Actaully I can cite at least one other case of why a Disney show was "Delayed" for at least 2 months due to an "Accident"), but beyond that.. is it really economical to really cut shows out for a time, just because a Disaster occurs? If that was the case, well then Every time there's a Tornado Strike occurs in the United States, Disney shouldn't run that old Epic which includes a tornado..(Mickey's Little Dust Devil) and "The one show that has "The Storm" Sequence in which a tornado hits during a musical concert?) After all shouldn't they do that out of the "respect" for those unlucky folks?

if that was the case, then these shows shouldn't air at all..(After all that's something that could work against the Walt Disney company.. and could hurt them..

:coyote:

[KingMinos]

Okay, not debating this anymore. Someone needed to be the cold, hard voice of reality. Not going to get into this anymore with people who have no idea how large corporations and networks want. I'm going to tell you what is, not what you want to hear.

You want the old shows played all the time, and say that's what the fans want. Unfortunatly the Jetix blocks are getting higher ratings than the old reruns can.

And as for DVDs, I keep telling you people what you need to do. It worked for "Gargoyles", but no you don't want to listen. You'd rather just sit at your computers and whine all day. We wanted our DVDs and we didn't whine all day, we got organized and we did something about it. And it worked. It worked very, very well.

So, nope. You get no sympathy from me. Well GregX... I hear you. And as someone who with another large group of fans fought a much larger corporation than Disney (the BBC actually), I can say I understand how it works - perhaps better than anyone here (15 years of fighting).

Oh, and we won - and the Beeb is way more cold and way larger than Disney could/can ever be. We got our show back - minimum 5 year commitment and DVD's for the next 16 years at least (including incomplete stories)!

As for the older shows - and I gather you mean the One Saturday Afternoon shows - well, maybe the fan-base is limited (something I'd like to know for sure actually). I've got an article on Mickey News playing out over the next few weeks that deals in part with TD/Jetix and mentions a more balanced approach that would appeal to all.

But if they don't show up with some better numbers - or at all - I would agree that Jetix will always do better than the old shows and maybe that balanced approach isn't even necessary(?).

Otherwise - like I said before elsewhere - your right. You got your DVD's. I imagine if other fans of other series got up and got busy - they'd get theirs too (maybe even keep their shows or see them once again at least).

But being one of those helping fans of a more recent series, believe me - they're not whining - they're just getting fired up. No sympathy required. :D

[CookieS]

Let me remind everyone this thread is about Toon Disney and its shows. Please steer clear of talking about the company since we have a thread specific to that. I'm partly to blame for the divergence, so let's all get back to the issues. :)

I want to comment on what Javeman brought up. That TV absence might actually mean a DVD release. They do it all the time, mainly becuase they need to create the demand to purchase. Who's gonna buy something they can watch on TV everyday? Most companies pull it off the air or serverly limit airings. I think the best way to show the company there is interest is to generate a buzz about it. Obviously shows like Gargoyles had a cult-like following. If there was an equal following to a show, I'm sure Disney would like to ride that wave as well.

They're not as non-responsive as you think. The idea of Jetix obviously grew out of the demmand for action shows. Think realistically, do people outside of Toon Zone REALLY want these DVDs? How common is that? How many people watched the original runs or the Toon Disney runs? Even a caculated risk or a potiental DVD release failure as to start as a means to meet demmand. If we are loud enough, there will be a response...but our "noise" my be very specific and not just "every show you made within this decade." Pick a show, get people involved, start a movement. Sure, its been done before, but most petitions and such fail simply because the momentum to move them isn't there. A petition is only the first step (and in my opinion a weak one). There needs to be more than promises, there needs to be action. A convention on one show was a HUGE action that let the company know they were serious.

[hobbyfan]

Amen! I'm so fed up with TD. I agree with everything you just said:)

EDIT
I have more things to add lol. I completely and utterly agree with everything you said PAF. I despice the new Toon Disney. I mean, what are those TD executives smoking? "Weekday Bonus Stacks"? Marathons KILL cartoons. And with all of the marathons they're showing daily, they're just putting all of the rest of their remaining shows in an early grave. "Recess" is so over-played it's not even funny. I used to love that show, but TD is REALLY shoving it down my throat.

ABC used to show 2 episodes of Recess every week, even after they stopped making new eps, until it was taken off the schedule at the end of last season. Now, it airs on Disney Channel at least twice a day, maybe also overnight, same as Toon Disney. TD is on digital cable where I live, and I don't have digital. TD is like a lot of cable networks in that it'll take at least one show, and shove it down everyone's throats. FX does it with Fear Factor & King of the Hill. Spike does it with reruns of Fox's old Police Videos. Sci-Fi & TV Land both have blocks of shows running weekdays. It's all about the ratings, the dolla-dolla bill, y'all.

The same thing with "The Weekenders" and "The Proud Family". And about "The Proud Family"... WTF?!? Why is this airing on both The Disney Channel AND TD? That's stupid. Why does this deserve to air on 2 channels when are beloved "Ducktales", "Darkwing Duck" and even "MIghty Ducks" doesn't even air on one? That's not fair at all.

Actually, it's 3 for Proud, as it's also on ABC on Saturdays.

And the same thing does for "Dave The Barbarian". This doesn't need to air on TD, and I can guarantee that we'll be seeing "Kim Possible", "Lilo & Stitch: The Series", "Brandy & Mr. Whiskers" and "Jake Long American Dragon" on TD within the next few years. Why? Why is Disney torturing us with taking our beloved classics and stuffing them to gather dust in their vaults? WTH?!? And I really miss Chillin' With The Villians, @ Toon and Hangin' With The Heroes. Also, the old TD from 2001 had a special block called "Toons In The House", and it ROCKED! LOL @ Toon replaced it when TD changed its format in 2002.
Chillin' With The Villians disappeared in 2003 when Disney made "Hangin' With The Heroes, @ Toon disappeared when TD infamously changed November 1, 2004 and was replaced by After School, and Hangin' With The Heroes was the latest casualty to disappear due to Jetix. Jetix has ruined TD. Jetix has taken over the whole channel when it already airs on ABC Family. I'm so sick of Jetix and TD altogether. I may like some shows on Jetix, but it has ruined part of my life for good. Also, I thought I could handle all of these changes, that is until TD discontinued "Goof Troop" on January 10. You'd think that cancelling half of the old shows that are the most important thing on TD would be enough, but no, they had to go and expand Jetix once again, and now "Goof Troop" is gone. So my question is... What's next? "Talespin"? "The Little Mermaid"? "The New Adventures Of Winnie The Pooh"? "101 Dalmatians: The Series"? "Aladdin"? "Hercules"? The last straw for me will be when "101 Dalmatians: The Series" is removed. When that infamous day comes, and we all know it's coming, I will lose it. TD better watch us, cuz I know that all of us are not very happy at all. I will always remember November 1, 2004 as the infamous day that changed TD FOREVER
Jetix generates the most ratings for Toon Disney, I would think, and that's why it keeps expanding. Unfortunately, the program directors don't know how to properly manage its "golden goose". Since you're not happy with their product, why not let them know about it, via letter or e-mail?

[tucsoncoyote]

Jetix generates the most ratings for Toon Disney, I would think, and that's why it keeps expanding. Unfortunately, the program directors don't know how to properly manage its "golden goose". Since you're not happy with their product, why not let them know about it, via letter or e-mail?and that's a good Idea Hobbyfan, in fact if they just clck on the link on the bottom of my sig, (the SaveDisneyshows one ) they can get to a page which has all the data they need to contact whomever they want at Disney (After all we've been compiling a Database of all the potential people you can contact within the Walt Disney Company. and in fact that's what fans need to do when it comes to complaints. After all Fans should be seen AND heard. after all this is Disney's Business to listen.

or better yet, they can go directly here (http://help.savedisneyshows.org/). After all They want answers? We'll give them the answers..

:coyote:

[fanboy]

I can't stand Toon Disney now. DuckTales, Darkwing Duck, Goof Troop, Quack Pack, Pepper Ann, Disney's Doug and Chip 'n' Dale's Rescue Rangers are all gone, and Hercules, Aladdin, 101 Dalmatians, The Weekenders, TaleSpin, Buzz Lightyear, Sabrina, Lloyd in Space, Timon and Pumba and the House of Mouse all air at horrible time slots. And its all jetix's fault. Now they what they only air is Jetix, Recess, Dave The Barbarian and that stupid marathons. Toon Disney was so much better in 2002.

[Wanted]

Guys... have you stop and think about the good thing about this change?

Hear me out. Shortly before the Disney Treasures were announced, Disney removed the classic shorts from their schedule. Looney Tunes were permanently removed from CN shortly before the LTGC DVDs were released. Futurama and Family Guy were both released on DVD shortly after the series were cancelled or announced their cancellation... you see the pattern here?

The fact that they removed the shows from the schedule might actually mean they are planning a release of some of these shows. It's not something too far-fetched, because the logic of "Now that this show is getting a DVD, there's no need to keep it on the schedule" is something that invades lots and lots of companies.

Of course, this is just a personal theory, but think about it... this might be GOOD...Brilliant!

[Divbid]

You forgot Bonkers.
how can you forget bonkers!! :sweat:

[ChristineFreak]

I hate what Toon Disney is becoming! They're being rediculous! I mean, if The Proud Family and Dave the Barbarian are still on Disney and Jettex is on another channel, then why the heck do they feel the need to not only put these shows on Toon Disney, but shove out the old ones? It's rediculous! From 9 to three, there are nothing but two-hour marathons of the same shows, and the same episodes, all of the time. I think they can bare to ditch these "bonus weekly block" things. I mean, I'm sorry, but I do not want to see the same show 5 or more times every single day, so I don't know where people get "Oh there's no room for the old shows anymore", because that's not true. I don't care what time these shows are on. I will wake myself up at 3:00 in the morning on a school night to watch these shows if I had to. I mean, most of us kids have school during the day, so why can't they have like an old-school afternoon thing or something? I mean, I can always figure out some way of taping it. As for the whole "You should've taped your shows when you had the chance" excuse? Could it be possible that maybe some of us have only recently been introduced to these old shows and didn't get the opportunity to tape them? I mean, I never even heard about Darkwing Duck or 101 Dalmatians: The Series or Hercules until about three years ago, and I only recently got digital cable so I haven't seen all of the episodes. I know 101 Dalmatians is still on the air, but who knows how much longer that'll last? Anyway, point is, I have been trying to tape shows, but I haven't been able to tape everything I've wanted to, and it's not my fault. Toon Disney needs to bring back the shows that are the reasons that I personally started watching the channel. I didn't beg for Toon Disney to see a clone of Disney/Nickelodeon. I wanted it so that I could see all these shows that everyone was talking about, and guess what? I liked them, and I'm sure other kids in the future would like them too. If you want to tell me I'm "Whining", fine. I don't care. It is *my* opinion and I'd hope that people could at least respect it.

*Whew!* That was long. *pants*

[Fan of Sponge]

Kids want to see the new cool shows not the old eight animated features that your grandparents used to watch. However, I don't like everday at 5pm they show a movie. They can show that on the weekends. Plus most cartoon channels don't show movies anymore unless on special holidays or your in the mood for Land Before Time. I have to say that they need to bring back @Toon, get rid of the mini marathons, limits the times of shows Jetix puts on like X-Men on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, puts all new episodes of Jetix on Mondays, get rid Power Rangers (its now even a cartoon for goodness sake), and buy Sailor Moon. It would be a good for Jetix.:anime:

[PowerZord]

Kids want to see the new cool shows not the old eight animated features that your grandparents used to watch. However, I don't like everday at 5pm they show a movie. They can show that on the weekends. Plus most cartoon channels don't show movies anymore unless on special holidays or your in the mood for Land Before Time. I have to say that they need to bring back @Toon, get rid of the mini marathons, limits the times of shows Jetix puts on like X-Men on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, puts all new episodes of Jetix on Mondays, get rid Power Rangers (its now even a cartoon for goodness sake), and buy Sailor Moon. It would be a good for Jetix.:anime:

What did you mean by our Grandparents used to watch? I'm only 19th and I want The gummi bears, Chip and dale and many others that were cancelled.

[SuperStantzio]

Yeah I'm also 19 and I do wish Bonkers, Goof Troop and all the older shows come back. Those I would like to see again.

[Ekkostar]

There will always be a place for Disney's older stuff. The shows might turn up on ABC Family or some other obscure digital channel.

[tucsoncoyote]

Kids want to see the new cool shows not the old eight animated features that your grandparents used to watch. However, I don't like everday at 5pm they show a movie. They can show that on the weekends. Plus most cartoon channels don't show movies anymore unless on special holidays or your in the mood for Land Before Time. I have to say that they need to bring back @Toon, get rid of the mini marathons, limits the times of shows Jetix puts on like X-Men on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, puts all new episodes of Jetix on Mondays, get rid Power Rangers (its now even a cartoon for goodness sake), and buy Sailor Moon. It would be a good for Jetix.:anime:I hate to say this Fan of Sponge, but in the real world sitch there are a lot of fans under 20 who've NEVER seen some of these shows before..(and in fact PowerZord's Comment brings it out..)

Now I'm 42, Fan of Sponge, and I've seen all the series Disney has had to offer (From Gummi Bears to American Dragon: Jake Long) and I can tell you one thing.. Shows like these aren't just for Kids or they aren't just for Grandparents.. They're for everyone...

Frankly I would love to see a Disney Channel (or a channel similar to this..) that is equally balanced between New and Old shows.. and in fact each show Disney Produces shouldn't be thought of in a New or Old Context.. They're all Disney..

Now as for Jetix.. (Which I might add is a Channel that is supposedly targeted to boys from 7-15, may I ask a question? Why is W.i.t.c.h. place on Jetix? and then you have to ask another question.. Why Is American Dragon Jake Long placed on Disney channel (Who's Main Targeted ages and genders are of the 7-15 female set?) *Scratches Head* That doesn't sound like the Disney Channel is follwoing the formula here.. (Also just today.. Why is Disney Channel running a Classic Movie (Dumbo) when it's supposed to be really as you state, to be just for Teens or Tweens..

Acutally it comes back to this.. Disney isn't about "old School" or "new Shcool" It's about Disney pure and simple.. Frankly if I had kids or if I'm going to have kids, I would want them to enjoy the best of both the older and more classical material, alongside the newer and more "hip" shows (Like Kim Possible, W.i.t.c.h, and American Dragon Jake Long.)

Frankly It all boils down to this.. Disney isn't meant for any one group of people. it's meant for the young, and the young at heart.. and in fact right now Disney itself is so far out of balance it has lost sight of who should be viewing it's channels.. it should be everyone..

What will happen when Disney channel starts to ignore it's younger viewers then? What then? Well I can tell you.. Some of the fans will just outright leave.. throughly disgusted at what Disney has to offer..(Frankly again I stress that Channels Like Disney Channel (DC) and ABC Family (ABCFam) and Jetix need to be balanced.. to bring in the widest variety of viewers possible.. As it is right now.. Disney is losing viewerships and it's because they don't maintain these balances between old and New school. once things get back to normal and if we can get a consensus here.. I think a lot of fans want both the older "Classical" material as well as the Newer stuff as well..(it's after all a balance.. a balance Disney Channel has failed to maintain.. It's time for some of us to tell it like it is.

and with that.. that's really all I need to say.

:coyote:

[tucsoncoyote]

Guys... have you stop and think about the good thing about this change?

Hear me out. Shortly before the Disney Treasures were announced, Disney removed the classic shorts from their schedule. Looney Tunes were permanently removed from CN shortly before the LTGC DVDs were released. Futurama and Family Guy were both released on DVD shortly after the series were cancelled or announced their cancellation... you see the pattern here?

The fact that they removed the shows from the schedule might actually mean they are planning a release of some of these shows. It's not something too far-fetched, because the logic of "Now that this show is getting a DVD, there's no need to keep it on the schedule" is something that invades lots and lots of companies.

Of course, this is just a personal theory, but think about it... this might be GOOD...That's one comment that I have to be skeptical about jave.. and for good reason.. After all if they took off these shows to produce these DVD's for said shows..(Even as much as a boxed set compilation) wouldn't the folks here at TZ have heard such rumblings of this happening? I've been all over this board and other then the Gargoyle's Compliation for the first season.. so far, Disney hasn't released as much as an Iota of it's shows..(After all there are 34 animated Series as of 2004, and in fact Jake Long makes it 35..

but the point is this.. if they are wanting to do this Jave, why haven't they done so in the last 2 years? (After all this last year was Chip and Dale's Rescue Rangers' 15th Anniversary.. This year it's Darkwing Duck's 15th..

so my question is this.. what Exactly is The Company doing with their "Intellectual Properties?"

that's my major question.

:coyote

[Jave]

That's one comment that I have to be skeptical about jave.. and for good reason.. After all if they took off these shows to produce these DVD's for said shows..(Even as much as a boxed set compilation) wouldn't the folks here at TZ have heard such rumblings of this happening? I've been all over this board and other then the Gargoyle's Compliation for the first season.. so far, Disney hasn't released as much as an Iota of it's shows..(After all there are 34 animated Series as of 2004, and in fact Jake Long makes it 35..

but the point is this.. if they are wanting to do this Jave, why haven't they done so in the last 2 years? (After all this last year was Chip and Dale's Rescue Rangers' 15th Anniversary.. This year it's Darkwing Duck's 15th..

so my question is this.. what Exactly is The Company doing with their "Intellectual Properties?"

that's my major question.

:coyoteWe don't know what's going to happen, that's a given. Sometimes projects are kept secret because other people's jobs are at risk. It's possible that they are planning these DVDs, but maybe they're not. I don't know, you don't know, noone from this board knows unless they're a mole from Disney.

Tucson, it seems to me that you're focusing so hard on the bad aspects of this that you're refusing to believe that this might turn out good. I respect your opinion, but you need to open yourself to the other possibilities.

And the next time, use the edit feature, don't double post.

[ChristineFreak]

>There's no such thing as "force-feeding" in television. No one is telling you what or what not to watch.

In a sense, they're telling us not to watch the old shows by taking them off the air and not making them available to us.

>Kids want to see the new cool shows not the old eight animated features that your grandparents used to watch.

Oh no? Don't speak for people. I love a lot of the older Disney cartoons more than the newer ones, and I know other kids younger than me who love them, too.

>However, I don't like everday at 5pm they show a movie. They can show that on the weekends.

I agree.

[PowerZord]

I'm 19 years old,(20 on March 29th) I grew up watching on my local channels Talespin, Chip-dale Rescue rangers, Darkwing duck, Gummi bears, Bonkers, Goof troop, Gargoyles, and all others you can imagine. I saw them all spanish dubbed.

Altough here in Puertorico, Gummi bears was the first one to go, Most of them stayed till around 1996 where they got rid of them. Then on 1998 i get cable Tv, Yay for me at that time, finally able to see American channels. For my deception, Disney I think only aired Bonkers at that time(Not sure.) then on 2001 i get digital cable, I was finally able to see Digital channels like Toon disney. I was happy that I could see Gummi bears and the others, but right at the end of 2002- beginning 2003 Gummi bears and most of these shows were gone. Altough I haven't seen Toon disney since 2003(My dad decided to drop the digital channels and stay with basic cable.) For what I been reading here at toonzone, all cartoons from our Golden era are gone. Cartoons from times where they could get away with punching and stuff.

No, it's not about being entirely of the same cartoons. it's about Balance. If i ever get Toon disney back, I don't want to see the same stupid cartoons we see on ABC FAM or Disney. Today's cartoons, i dunno.. They lacked quality and inteligence. Altough I liked Proud family, It was full of stupid Stereotypes.

Disney hasn't release any copies of their shows into DVD or at least VHS, So instead of cancelling, Release them on single dvd's and test it out. if it buys as single dvd's then gives us a Box set.

I'm willing to fight till the end till we see Some respect for our favorite cartoons. That's why I joined the Yahoo group preserve the magic.

Well.. Here from PR I can't do much, but you guys who are in U.S you can be of more help.

This is the end of my rant and story

[tucsoncoyote]

I'm 19 years old,(20 on March 29th) I grew up watching on my local channels Talespin, Chip-dale Rescue rangers, Darkwing duck, Gummi bears, Bonkers, Goof troop, Gargoyles, and all others you can imagine. I saw them all spanish dubbed.

Altough here in Puertorico, Gummi bears was the first one to go, Most of them stayed till around 1996 where they got rid of them. Then on 1998 i get cable Tv, Yay for me at that time, finally able to see American channels. For my deception, Disney I think only aired Bonkers at that time(Not sure.) then on 2001 i get digital cable, I was finally able to see Digital channels like Toon disney. I was happy that I could see Gummi bears and the others, but right at the end of 2002- beginning 2003 Gummi bears and most of these shows were gone. Altough I haven't seen Toon disney since 2003(My dad decided to drop the digital channels and stay with basic cable.) For what I been reading here at toonzone, all cartoons from our Golden era are gone. Cartoons from times where they could get away with punching and stuff.

No, it's not about being entirely of the same cartoons. it's about Balance. If i ever get Toon disney back, I don't want to see the same stupid cartoons we see on ABC FAM or Disney. Today's cartoons, i dunno.. They lacked quality and inteligence. Altough I liked Proud family, It was full of stupid Stereotypes.

Disney hasn't release any copies of their shows into DVD or at least VHS, So instead of cancelling, Release them on single dvd's and test it out. if it buys as single dvd's then gives us a Box set.

I'm willing to fight till the end till we see Some respect for our favorite cartoons. That's why I joined the Yahoo group preserve the magic.

Well.. Here from PR I can't do much, but you guys who are in U.S you can be of more help.

This is the end of my rant and story Now first off I empathize with you here PowerZord, and in fact I really understand the conundrum here.. you're barely 20 years old, and I understand how you feel about Disney Channel and in fact about how even toon Disney has gone downhill (And believe me, I feel your pain. After all there are a lot of fans who feel the exact same way. We're angry, frustrated, and in fact tired of the "many Open ended Promises made to us by the Walt Disney Company about releasing DVD's or returning certain shows back onto Disney Channel/Toon Disney, and yes the Golden Age of Disney Television is indeed truly Gone..After all it's not the fans fault for this issue.. but rather instead something that is how can i say this.. rather unique.. it's the Company failing to listen to what the fans Really want..

For we're dealing here with a Corporation that has gotten so huge, and so cumbersome and unwieldly , that rather then focusing on the the sole purpose of Animation (Even Television Animation), This has now been diversified what I consider too far..especially when it involves things that aren't even animated related..(Video Games, Diaper, and even computers).

now switching gears and in regards to your comment Javeman:


Tucson, it seems to me that you're focusing so hard on the bad aspects of this that you're refusing to believe that this might turn out good. I respect your opinion, but you need to open yourself to the other possibilities.Now as for that Jave I have to say this.. Frankly I have looked at the possibilities, I've talked to the fans, I've read countless angry and frustated emails, and You think I should ease up? Hardly.. I should work smarter not harder, but when you run into the roadblocks and frustations I have Jave, you have to say something negative (After all what positiveness is there with 4 cable channels, who's schedules are all mucked up, and listening to thousands of fans complain about this. What do you do? You empathize with them. and you develop a wider open mind.(And believe me I've got a mindset so open Jave, it looks at countless ways to handle things.

But then I would also Like to bring up something that was mentioned in another thread.In fact Jave, you said it yourself, and again I catch you talking out both sides of your mouth here..(and yet aren't you the one saying I'm talking out both sides of the mouth?) Well if not then I direct you to this exact post. (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1571589&postcount=153)


I agree with GregX on the fact that you guys need to be realistic about these releases. I'm not against Disney releasing these shows on DVD, but it's blatantly obvious that if Disney decided all of a sudden to release these shows, they will probably sink in debt and the company will go bankrupt due to bad sales. I doubt that anyone in this board will be even capable of affording them all. The only DA show I see doing well in sales is Ducktales, but most of the other shows do not have fandoms big enough to guarantee a profit for the company.Now my question is here Jave, is how long should the fans be forced to wait for these shows to appear eiher to return on Television or appear in the form of Boxed DVD Sets? 10 years? 15 years? 20 years ? or even 25 years? Frankly most of the young folks who are under 20 don't even Know about these wonderful Disney Afternoon Shows that ran on Syndication/ABC/Disney Channel between 1985 and 1994.. in fact the Majority of these shows now are residing in Disney's Vault Gathering dust.. Making No profit either on Cable or on DVD slaes.. and yet all Disney has to do is open it's own mind up a little and explore these possibilities..I've already done so and I can tell you that if Disney did that.. Their Viewership on their Channels would increase.. Not decrease as it has been doing over the last 3 years.


Frankly You say I am "Narrow Minded" Jave? That I'm thinking Negatively.. Not True.. I'm Thinking Realistically here with good ol' Fashioned Common sense, and with the Disney Fan's Interest in mind.. (After all some of them have seen the shows already.. they want these shows to be part of their collections, and those who haven't seen them haven't really experienced what they're missing perhaps once they see a few of these shows (Either on TV or On DVD) would they realize that There is no difference here between "New School Disney" and "Old School Disney" in fact Disney I again reintereate means one thing to me, Jave, "Quality Family Entertainment." (And it's the gift that keeps on Giving as these collections are handed down from generation to generation. (After all Even 50 year old Grandparents should be able to enjoy the newer shows just like the 12 year old who would love to enjoy "Gummi Bears..) (and that's the realism here.. Disney isn't for just the young..but rather "The Young at heart").

Frankly all I'm asking is that Disney needs to start listening a bit more to the fans in general here.. after all What's rule 1 of Customer service? The Customer is always right.. (and Rule 1a is that Customer know what they want, even when you say they don't know what they want.) and in fact the real question here since these are old Disney shows that would be released.. is this.. "Who's Jobs are being put at risk here? " (Just to keep the wraps on a project?

After all Jave Fans should have a right to know what's coming out, or what's available in terms of options here..(Fans have the right to choose or not choose what they want.)

now then I think Iv'e said enough.. That's it.. I'm finished talking.. Let common sense thinkers prevail. After All the fans are perhaps the best people who know what they deserve and want. and it should be them who controls this action, and not the company. After all there is a thing called "Ratings" and another thing Called "Sales" don't you know.

:coyote:

[Jave]

The second quoted post of mine in your last post was done before the change in the schedule, which means that I didn't realize that possibility until that particular move from Disney, so it's not like I'm actually contradicting myself. Also, there are facts that seem to be an asset to my last theory, like the fact that "Ducktales: Treasure of the Lost Lamp" is being released soon on DVD.

As for "How long should the fans wait". That's not something we get to decide, sadly. There are tons of shows I want on DVD that their companies won't release, shows that are 10 times better than the Disney TV cartoons, but they won't release them.

I am being realistic when I say you shouldn't get your hopes too high with this, because while removing shows from the schedule MIGHT mean DVD releases, it may also mean squat.

I mean, what do you really want, tucson? I seems to me you want your favorite shows back on the schedule, along with them being released on DVD, and for them to make more, new episodes. If that's all you want, you're asking for way too much. Disney's management isn't anything different than CN, or even Nickelodeon. They all get an initial contract of a determined number of episodes, and after that, unless the rating are REALLY huge, they get renewed.

Yes, people have a right to get mad when their favorite show is off the air, but they all need to move on. You shouldn't revolve your life around something that you have no control about, because it's pointless. Maybe Disney will release the shows on DVD to please the fans and make them happy. But if they don't, it's when you need to realize... it's over.

[BigKPFan76]

I mean, what do you really want, tucson? I seems to me you want your favorite shows back on the schedule, along with them being released on DVD, and for them to make more, new episodes. If that's all you want, you're asking for way too much. Disney's management isn't anything different than CN, or even Nickelodeon. They all get an initial contract of a determined number of episodes, and after that, unless the rating are REALLY huge, they get renewed.

Yes, people have a right to get mad when their favorite show is off the air, but they all need to move on. You shouldn't revolve your life around something that you have no control about, because it's pointless. Maybe Disney will release the shows on DVD to please the fans and make them happy. But if they don't, it's when you need to realize... it's over.
Well, why are you fighting so hard in the OPPOSITE direction, with every chance you get....you seem to want to deflate us (the people who want to save their favorite shows from deletion) and our movement. You must have something to gain by trying to convince us that our movement is futile. Otherwise, you wouldnt be working so hard to tell us to quit trying to save our favorite shows. Or accuse us of spamming. (and if it is ToonZone's policy to stiffle our opinions...well there must be a First Amendment issue here somewhere)

So having said that, I suppose the executives at Disney, Nickelodeon, and Cartoon Network are doing things on their own...without regards to the fans or viewers or anyone else. Even though we are the supreme ones here...we watch the shows and buy the products, IOW we pay their salaries. If thats the way they want it....just fine by me, I'll get over it....but I hope they enjoy watching their ratings and sales plummet down the core of the earth...cause I sure as heck wont be watching anymore.

Point is.......the fans are the ones who should make a determination about how long a show goes on.........NOT some big wig.

[Jave]

Point is.......the fans are the ones who should make a determination about how long a show goes on.........NOT some big wig.No.

The creator of the show should be the one that determines when the show ends. Not the fans nor a network executive that knows nothing about cartoons.


I'm tired of repeating this: you guys have every right to be mad, just please, don't take every single thread and hijack it to talk about this. It gets annoying, which is why a thread was made entirely for this topic.

Enough, already.

[tucsoncoyote]

No.

The creator of the show should be the one that determines when the show ends. Not the fans nor a network executive that knows nothing about cartoons.


I'm tired of repeating this: you guys have every right to be mad, just please, don't take every single thread and hijack it to talk about this. It gets annoying, which is why a thread was made entirely for this topic.

Enough, already.Actually Jave, You're the one sidetracking this and stating that we're "Hijacking this thread.." Such bold brave words in a world full of terrorism.. and believe me there is terrorism and then there is "Reverse Terrorism.."

but to get back on track here.. again I must Reinterate my last comment here.. and in fact it seems no one here can give a viable answer.. but Let me rephrase this for you.. so maybe you can under stand..

and it will be in the form of Multiple questions..

1. if the Creators wanted to make more shows, then my question to them is this.. Why don't they do it? (Are they afraid they'll get fired for going against orders of some higher up (There's that risk you are talking about Jave..)

2. And how long do the fans have to wait to get a DVD Set from Disney? The Gargoyles Boxed Set of 13 episodes took 8 long hard years of the Fans Nagging Disney to do this.. after all I see a lot of fans wishing to have Disney make their favorite show into a boxed set or a series of DVD's but My question which remains unanswered is this.. How long do these fans have to wait to get what they deserve? After all Jave, that's the initial quesion that a lot of fans are asking. "Why did they take these older shows off the air? And what are they planning to do with them? Let them sit in a vault making no profit or even happiness here? Apparently this is the main sticking issue.. After all we've come back to this question of Open-mindedness here.. I say if Disney wanted to they could make a "Limited " run of a series of DVD's and release them out to the public, let the sales figures decide if the series is popular or not.. after all it comes back to this exact Post (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1571589&postcount=153)that you stated.. (And again I throw this up to you ..



I agree with GregX on the fact that you guys need to be realistic about these releases. I'm not against Disney releasing these shows on DVD, but it's blatantly obvious that if Disney decided all of a sudden to release these shows, they will probably sink in debt and the company will go bankrupt due to bad sales. I doubt that anyone in this board will be even capable of affording them all. The only DA show I see doing well in sales is Ducktales, but most of the other shows do not have fandoms big enough to guarantee a profit for the company.again this comes back to the issue at hand.. why not have the company make "limited Runs" on these series? (Make say 200,000 copies) if the copies sell out then make more..(After all REproducing a series with a set of Master DVD's or Videos is easy.. after all they do that for books, so in terms of Disney's issues for the fans of Disney Afternoon shows, why not make "limited run sets and release them at a rate of say.. 1 every 90 to 150 days?

Your thoughts on this.?

:coyote:

[BigKPFan76]

No.

The creator of the show should be the one that determines when the show ends. Not the fans nor a network executive that knows nothing about cartoons.I didnt know the creators sat around and watched their own shows.

I dont think KP has 80 million creators...nope........thats FANS. Toons are made for fans...US.....not anyone else.

[Jave]

I didnt know the creators sat around and watched their own shows.

I dont think KP has 80 million creators...nope........thats FANS. Toons are made for fans...US.....not anyone else.If you wrote a book, would you like other people telling you when you should finish it?

[PowerZord]

If you wrote a book, would you like other people telling you when you should finish it?

It happened with DBZ

[Jave]

It happened with DBZYeah, and people hated it.

[CookieS]

1. if the Creators wanted to make more shows, then my question to them is this.. Why don't they do it? (Are they afraid they'll get fired for going against orders of some higher up (There's that risk you are talking about Jave..)
Because making a show cost money. If a creator had the money to privately fund more episodes, most of the time it wouldn't work because they don't own the legal rights to release more shows themseleves. Sure, a creator can make a five year plan and hope the show hangs on that long, but the truth is, they really don't have much power in the process. It comes down to having competitive ratings, which is the same reason why some of the best shows on television only lasted one season or less.


2. And how long do the fans have to wait to get a DVD Set from Disney? The Gargoyles Boxed Set of 13 episodes took 8 long hard years of the Fans Nagging Disney to do this.. after all I see a lot of fans wishing to have Disney make their favorite show into a boxed set or a series of DVD's but My question which remains unanswered is this.. How long do these fans have to wait to get what they deserve?
Oh give me a break with this self-righteous "if we build it, they will come" stuff. Disney saw the convention and the large collection of fans and figured the market is big enough to sell the DVDs. I have yet to see anything mirror that for any other of Disney's television series.


After all Jave, that's the initial quesion that a lot of fans are asking. "Why did they take these older shows off the air? And what are they planning to do with them? Let them sit in a vault making no profit or even happiness here? Apparently this is the main sticking issue.. After all we've come back to this question of Open-mindedness here.. I say if Disney wanted to they could make a "Limited " run of a series of DVD's and release them out to the public, let the sales figures decide if the series is popular or not.. after all it comes back to this exact Post (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1571589&postcount=153)that you stated.. (And again I throw this up to you ..

again this comes back to the issue at hand.. why not have the company make "limited Runs" on these series? (Make say 200,000 copies) if the copies sell out then make more..(After all REproducing a series with a set of Master DVD's or Videos is easy.. after all they do that for books, so in terms of Disney's issues for the fans of Disney Afternoon shows, why not make "limited run sets and release them at a rate of say.. 1 every 90 to 150 days?
Yeah? Why not release all these shows...because there are reasons beyond our understanding. If everyone on this forum had an ounce of marketing knowledge, the actual statistics from polls conducted by Disney, and dropped the nagging, then maybe we could talk seriously about this. There are a million DVDs the company "could" release because people like them, but unfortunately there is a bottom line to deal with. For whatever reason, these releases you're suggesting either don't have a projection to meet that bottom line, or the people in charge have a different view of how to run things. Let's quit playing armchair CEO here. Be a fan, share your opinions, but stop trying to speculate and run a company the same way people play fantasy football.

Also, Javeman was right on when he mentioning hijacking threads. I don't care what flavor your "disney corporation" talk is, its still breaking this forum's rules. We have a thread pertaining to the company, and this forum is about the actual shows/movies....not the people that release them. Got it? This thread shouldn't even exist because its mostly about the programming directors, and not the shows themseleves.


I didnt know the creators sat around and watched their own shows.

I dont think KP has 80 million creators...nope........thats FANS. Toons are made for fans...US.....not anyone else.
*yanks out the soapbox* Ok, we hear you, now put down the megaphone and listen to me. Creators do watch their own shows. Usually they hold a position on the staff where they are the creative director or producer, but they do watch a show once its finished. They probably don't watch it when it airs on television, because by that time, the episode has been done for a few months already.

Your logic goes loopy when you say "FANS". Fans don't own the DVD
distribution companies or any of the animation equipment. Aside from paying their checks, we have very little power. A fan's leverage is in the buy/boycott maneuver. You buy to show you like a decision, or boycott to revolt it. That's it. Also, cartoons are not made FOR fans. They're made for companies. Long before a show has any fans, the show is picked up for a movie or season, based on the good judgement of a few individuals (heads of programming). Fans are just an after effect of this process.

[GregX]

I said I wouldn't look back in here, but I'm a masochist.

You want the rest of the Disney Afternoon on DVD? Why don't you do what we did. Get some people together, get a staff, put together a Disney Afternoon Annual Fan Convention or something. Show Disney you're willing to spend money on these properties.

Those of us in the "Gargoyles" fandom did it, and they threw us a bone.

To quote Greg Weisman...

"If Disney sees that they can make money off these properties, they'll want to make that money. It's just that easy."

If Greg wasn't so busy with the second season of WITCH, I'd send him a link to this discussion.

[BigKPFan76]

If you wrote a book, would you like other people telling you when you should finish it?
If the fans of my book(s) wanted me to write another one........yep i sure would!


*yanks out the soapbox* Ok, we hear you, now put down the megaphone and listen to me. Creators do watch their own shows. Usually they hold a position on the staff where they are the creative director or producer, but they do watch a show once its finished. They probably don't watch it when it airs on television, because by that time, the episode has been done for a few months already.

Your logic goes loopy when you say "FANS". Fans don't own the DVD
distribution companies or any of the animation equipment. Aside from paying their checks, we have very little power. A fan's leverage is in the buy/boycott maneuver. You buy to show you like a decision, or boycott to revolt it. That's it. Also, cartoons are not made FOR fans. They're made for companies. Long before a show has any fans, the show is picked up for a movie or season, based on the good judgement of a few individuals (heads of programming). Fans are just an after effect of this process.
Ok, having just read that........if Disney doesnt produce more KP......then I choose to boycott Disney.

Simple as that. I refuse to buy their crap if they dont make me happy.

[GregX]

Personally, I fall into the camp that a creator should have the choice over when something ends. It's their story after all.

For example, take Babylon 5. It was planned to be and always be a five season show. J. Michael Straczynski planned it all out years before the first episode saw air.

He got his five year story. Many fans wanted more. Should he have tried to make more to appease them? (I'm not counting Crusade here)

[Jave]

If the fans of my book(s) wanted me to write another one........yep i sure would!But then, you'd WANT to write a new one...

No one likes people messing with their own work. When the creator wants to put closure to his series (TV, book, whatever) it's when it should end. Not before, not after.

[tucsoncoyote]

I said I wouldn't look back in here, but I'm a masochist.

You want the rest of the Disney Afternoon on DVD? Why don't you do what we did. Get some people together, get a staff, put together a Disney Afternoon Annual Fan Convention or something. Show Disney you're willing to spend money on these properties.

Those of us in the "Gargoyles" fandom did it, and they threw us a bone.

To quote Greg Weisman...

"If Disney sees that they can make money off these properties, they'll want to make that money. It's just that easy."

If Greg wasn't so busy with the second season of WITCH, I'd send him a link to this discussion.Ah now you said something that makes sense Greg.. and this might surprise you.. 40 years ago.. They called these shows, "Family Entertainment."

Today They call the same shows "Intellectual Properties"

Frankly the term Intellectual Properties denoting shows means that yes the company owns them.. and what they do to them is none of our business. Frankly for all we know, they could have destroyed them. and still claim that they have these "intellectual Properties".

Now while we are at it, why don't we declare the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution of the United States "intellectual Properties of the government.. but I must back off here before the rage within me gets going..

Frankly I hate it when you say the fans don't matter.. well okay then , we don't matter, Tell you what greg, Why don't you write a big fat letter to Mr. Eisner and the board of Disney telling them that we aren't important to them, we don't matter, that in fact I'll be glad to cancel out my subscription to any and all Disney channels (and even all ABC Affiliated channels (in fact I didn't watch ABC at all in the last 3 months!)

Frankly go ahead and tell them we don't matter guys.. cause I'm willing to go spend my hard earned dollars on something OTHER then Disney.. (and that includes video games, DVD's even products..)

Frankly John Glenn said it best.. No Bucks Means No Buck Rogers..

For this scenario.. No bucks means no Disney funding..(After all we're paying for the toys, games and what not..) and if you think that we don't.. well then why do you buy Disney Classical films? Why does anyone.. Maybe the best thing at this point is to close off this thread.. after all this is becoming more of a Flame war then a decent conversation about how to correct the problems here..

:coyote:

[BigKPFan76]

But then, you'd WANT to write a new one...

No one likes people messing with their own work. When the creator wants to put closure to his series (TV, book, whatever) it's when it should end. Not before, not after.
Apparently you didnt read what I posted.........I said....If the fans of my book(s) wanted me to write another one...I would.

I CERTAINLY wouldnt write one for myself.....what am I gonna do, sit around and read my own book? Sell it to myself? Hmmm, dont know about you...but that would be pretty boring seeing as how I would already know the ending. Not much fun there.

[tucsoncoyote]

Alright this has gotten a bit too far.. and way out of control..

Frankly I respect what Jave, GregX, and Cookies are saying.. However.. if they would like to call a "Cease Fire" on this.. I'm willing to.. but on one condition.. Frankly They have to write to the Company and explain why their actions are correct. and we have to explain our actions to the company in the same way..(Frankly when they look at both sides.. maybe they're going to realize that they're in a No Win Situation" and admit to both sides that we're all right.. and all wrong.. Frankly Though I don't see Disney Executives, Mid-level Management, or even creators going out and purchasing their own products.. (after all this is intellectual Properties we are dealing with..)

but hey if the Toon Disney and The Disney Channel have the right to take shows off and not give fans a right to view them ever again.. and if they want to shred the evidence.. why don't they? After all guys.. you're right.. The Fans Don't matter.. We're not important.. we don't go out and spend the cash on Disney products.. (maybe then I should toss out everything that is Disney In my house.. From the 1950's Timex Mickey mouse Watch to the Kim Possible Videos.. Frankly if I don't matter then I've just wasted my money that could have been spent on a lot better things..

that's really all I have to say. end of story.

so I'll go ahead and compose a letter saying to the Disney company and it's outfits .. the fans don't care.. do what you want with your properties..

That's all I have to say.

:coyote:

[Jave]

Apparently you didnt read what I posted.........I said....If the fans of my book(s) wanted me to write another one...I would.

I CERTAINLY wouldnt write one for myself.....what am I gonna do, sit around and read my own book? Sell it to myself? Hmmm, dont know about you...but that would be pretty boring seeing as how I would already know the ending. Not much fun there.Oh my... I can't believe I'm reading this. Seriously, you don't believe that cartoonists might love their creations? You don't believe that someone might want to put his work to an end, no matter what the fans say? If that's true, I see you as a really narrow-minded person. Sorry, but it's how I feel.

I clearly remember Chuck Jones' ever-popular phrase: "I made my cartoons to entertain myself first. If I thought they were funny, they were funny for the viewers."

[GregX]

Oh my... I can't believe I'm reading this. Seriously, you don't believe that cartoonists might love their creations? You don't believe that someone might want to put his work to an end, no matter what the fans say? If that's true, I see you as a really narrow-minded person. Sorry, but it's how I feel.

I clearly remember Chuck Jones' ever-popular phrase: "I made my cartoons to entertain myself first. If I thought they were funny, they were funny for the viewers."And Greg Weisman once said to the fandom...

"My hope was to bring in people like you, cause you're people like me, and I was writing to please myself."

Greg's not done with Gargoyles, he wants another shot. If he ever gets it and goes as long as he wants, and one day feels it's time for him to close the book. I will accept it. It's his show.

[GregX]

Ah now you said something that makes sense Greg.. and this might surprise you.. 40 years ago.. They called these shows, "Family Entertainment."

Today They call the same shows "Intellectual Properties"

Frankly the term Intellectual Properties denoting shows means that yes the company owns them.. and what they do to them is none of our business. Frankly for all we know, they could have destroyed them. and still claim that they have these "intellectual Properties".

Now while we are at it, why don't we declare the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution of the United States "intellectual Properties of the government.. but I must back off here before the rage within me gets going..

Frankly I hate it when you say the fans don't matter.. well okay then , we don't matter, Tell you what greg, Why don't you write a big fat letter to Mr. Eisner and the board of Disney telling them that we aren't important to them, we don't matter, that in fact I'll be glad to cancel out my subscription to any and all Disney channels (and even all ABC Affiliated channels (in fact I didn't watch ABC at all in the last 3 months!)

Frankly go ahead and tell them we don't matter guys.. cause I'm willing to go spend my hard earned dollars on something OTHER then Disney.. (and that includes video games, DVD's even products..)

Frankly John Glenn said it best.. No Bucks Means No Buck Rogers..

For this scenario.. No bucks means no Disney funding..(After all we're paying for the toys, games and what not..) and if you think that we don't.. well then why do you buy Disney Classical films? Why does anyone.. Maybe the best thing at this point is to close off this thread.. after all this is becoming more of a Flame war then a decent conversation about how to correct the problems here..

:coyote:
Pardon me, but when in the hell did I say the fans don't matter? I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth :mad:

On the contrary, the fans do matter. The burden falls upon us. The fans need to show Disney that these shows can make money.

And you know what, I'm one of the people who was behind one of the Gargoyles conventions, dear friends of mine have been involved also, some more than one. We showed Disney we exist and are willing to spend the money.

Disney didn't just give us the Gargoyles DVD. We earned it. We worked our butts off, and we earned it. So, get off your high horse if you really want these other shows. We did it. You can too.

I have no sympathy for people who just ***** and moan and don't do anything about it. Why, cause I helped get these DVDs. The entire Gargoyles fandom worked hard for it.

[BigKPFan76]

Oh my... I can't believe I'm reading this. Seriously, you don't believe that cartoonists might love their creations? You don't believe that someone might want to put his work to an end, no matter what the fans say? If that's true, I see you as a really narrow-minded person. Sorry, but it's how I feel.

I clearly remember Chuck Jones' ever-popular phrase: "I made my cartoons to entertain myself first. If I thought they were funny, they were funny for the viewers."
Well using that logic.........the creators of KP have said they would like to do more KP..........so why wont Disney let them make more KP? Hmmm? Answer me that.

Also......if the creators of a particular show want to keep making more episodes...but yet no one watches them. Well.....whats the point in that? They will just be making shows to fill airwaves or take up space.

You have to have an audience for your medium.......if there is no audience, there is no show. Would you make a movie that no one wanted to see...if only just to please yourself? I wouldnt. If I didnt have an audience to watch it........there would be no point in me making it..now would there?

[BigKPFan76]

Pardon me, but when in the hell did I say the fans don't matter? I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth :mad:

On the contrary, the fans do matter. The burden falls upon us. The fans need to show Disney that these shows can make money.

And you know what, I'm one of the people who was behind one of the Gargoyles conventions, dear friends of mine have been involved also, some more than one. We showed Disney we exist and are willing to spend the money.

Disney didn't just give us the Gargoyles DVD. We earned it. We worked our butts off, and we earned it. So, get off your high horse if you really want these other shows. We did it. You can too.

I have no sympathy for people who just ***** and moan and don't do anything about it. Why, cause I helped get these DVDs. The entire Gargoyles fandom worked hard for it.
Uh.......excuse me? But we (the fans of KP and L&S) have been working our butts off (including tucsoncoyote) to get these shows back into production. And indeed..........to get all of Disney back "into production"

[tucsoncoyote]

Well using that logic.........the creators of KP have said they would like to do more KP..........so why wont Disney let them make more KP? Hmmm? Answer me that.

Also......if the creators of a particular show want to keep making more episodes...but yet no one watches them. Well.....whats the point in that? They will just be making shows to fill airwaves or take up space.

You have to have an audience for your medium.......if there is no audience, there is no show. Would you make a movie that no one wanted to see...if only just to please yourself? I wouldnt. If I didnt have an audience to watch it........there would be no point in me making it..now would there?I have to agree with this logic here as well.. Why Create shows like Dave the Barbarian and Brandy and Mr. Whiskers here if no one is hardly going to watch them? (Or have you noted the number of posts in any Kim Possibe thread versus a Brandy and Mr. Whiskers thread? (I mean look around the Disney board here jave.. 30+ posts for Kim versus 2 for Brandy and Mr. Whiskers? (and in fact I did this because I felt sorry for the guy who missed the ep!)

Frankly though BigKPFan you are spot on the money.. If Jave's Words are "the Creators have the final say, and in fact they are the ones doing the shows, then if they want to do more they should do them and not question the executive decisions made by some executive who might only have a second glance here..(after all Greg X points out perfectly that Greg Weisman wants to do more Gargoyles.. I as a Viewer would love to see more of this series.. so tell me Jave who's stopping the creator from creating? It sure isn't Mr. Weisman, that's for sure.

:coyote:

[GregX]

Uh.......excuse me? But we (the fans of KP and L&S) have been working our butts off (including tucsoncoyote) to get these shows back into production. And indeed..........to get all of Disney back "into production"
Okay, what are you doing, out of curiosity?

[Jave]

Well using that logic.........the creators of KP have said they would like to do more KP..........so why wont Disney let them make more KP? Hmmm? Answer me that.CookieS already answered that. Look a few posts back.


Also......if the creators of a particular show want to keep making more episodes...but yet no one watches them. Well.....whats the point in that? They will just be making shows to fill airwaves or take up space.

You have to have an audience for your medium.......if there is no audience, there is no show. Would you make a movie that no one wanted to see...if only just to please yourself? I wouldnt. If I didnt have an audience to watch it........there would be no point in me making it..now would there?As long as they're making new episodes, there's always people watching. I mean, look at The Simpsons. A lot of people agree that the show is not as good as before but people still watch it.

There's no way to prove that absolutely no one is watching a show, which is why the creators should be entitled to finish their creations when they want to.

If the ratings are really bad, though, it would still be a network executive who cancels the show, not the creator himself.

[BigKPFan76]

Okay, what are you doing, out of curiosity?
Well for one thing, we have a whole forum dedicated to keeping KP and L&S and all of Disney intact:

http://forum.savedisneyshows.org/index.php

And we have this nice little site:

http://kp.savedisneyshows.org/

with names and addresses for fans to write to. Had over 14,000 hits so far.

And we have flyers, and buttons in the works...and T-shirts....shall I go on?

[tucsoncoyote]

Okay, what are you doing, out of curiosity?A heck of a lot greg, after all we've gone so far to write the company, to email them to keep pestering them.. after all we're like insects.. and we understand the fan's frustration here.. we even go out so far as to give them what I like to call "Empathetic" rather then Sympathetic Support.

and even more.. We cook up ideas, and in fact we're working hard not just to bring back one show but rather bring back the shows the fans can enjoy..(That's a heck of a lot of work and believe me Greg, I'm up 17 hours a day, working with fans thinking of ways we can do this. that's a heck of lot of brain power being flexed..) and all for the one thing that is in our goal.. To Protect and maintain Disney's wonderful Historical past, and protecting it for Future generations to enjoy..

Sounds like we're fighting city hall right? Well in a way we are..

After all I and others have been working listening to the complaints of the disney fans what they see is wrong.. and we work with them on trying to fix this idea..

We've gone so far as even set up a discussion board, and in fact gone so far out as to work on things that fans enjoy..

now are we being creators? maybe.. maybe not.. but the point is this.. We Enjoy Disney shows.. we enjoy what is going right with Disney (in terms of their quality shows) yet we are working to try and come up with ways to make is more enjoyable, not only for just the fans.. the Teens and Tweens on Disney Channel, Toon Disney, and Jetix are just one group.. we're working with Families.. trying to educate and inform them of these problems.. and to show that they have a right to enjoy what they want to watch.. (After all if we could change just a few small things initially the rest would fall into place.)

so simple changes lead to more complex ones and that's our goal.. we're not trying to restore Disney to be enjoyed by a select few, but rather by everyone. (After all I grew up with Disney.. Been around for 42 years and have enjoyed all the shows.. even the bad ideas..

so you can't say that there's just 1 person here.. but rather a few thousand.. after all we're looking at it for the best interest of all.. and not a select few.




As long as they're making new episodes, there's always people watching. I mean, look at The Simpsons. A lot of people agree that the show is not as good as before but people still watch it.

There's no way to prove that absolutely no one is watching a show, which is why the creators should be entitled to finish their creations when they want to.

If the ratings are really bad, though, it would still be a network executive who cancels the show, not the creator himself.Yeah Jave And I bet you haven't watched or commented on that Brandy and Mr. Whiskers Talkback.. (if you're so avidly watching the show.. then why didn't you post? I post on every show i view and enjoy..(and if I miss an episode.. okay so it'll be on re-runs.. big whoop)

but the thing is maybe you should get a little shock treatment, and comment on some of the shows that are currently on Disney rather then just say that you watch them.. you'd be surprised how many (or How Few) fans enjoy certain shows..(After all 40 posts for W.i.t.ch. 40 for Kp, 2 for Brandy and Mr. Whiskers. Need I say more? Posts mean just as much as how a show is liked and lack of posts show how much a show is disliked. couldn't be any clearer then that!)


that's really All I need to say..

:coyote:

[BigKPFan76]

CookieS already answered that. Look a few posts back.
The answer is...and I think you will agree...they should be allowed to finish their creation.....Am I right?


As long as they're making new episodes, there's always people watching. I mean, look at The Simpsons. A lot of people agree that the show is not as good as before but people still watch it.
Ok, so if even just a few people are watching KP, then it should be alllowed to be continued in production. So you dont need a mass audience to produce a show....just a willing creator.


There's no way to prove that absolutely no one is watching a show, which is why the creators should be entitled to finish their creations when they want to.
So let the creators finish out a show...not many people watch it....but let them finish it. Sounds like a waste of airwaves and airtime to me.


If the ratings are really bad, though, it would still be a network executive who cancels the show, not the creator himself.
At least we agree on something.

[GregX]

Well for one thing, we have a whole forum dedicated to keeping KP and L&S and all of Disney intact:

http://forum.savedisneyshows.org/index.php

And we have this nice little site:

http://kp.savedisneyshows.org/

with names and addresses for fans to write to. Had over 14,000 hits so far.

And we have flyers, and buttons in the works...and T-shirts....shall I go on?
And all that stuff is well and good. Glad to see you're doing that. But to be frank, a fan convention is what will really grab their attention. The Gargoyles fandom had all that stuff too, but we also had the convention. Each year a group of dedicated fans got together to plan a convention.

We actually didn't think we'd get Disney's attention, then, come G2002, we found out we did, and in a positive way. They sent t-shirts and let us know they were planning the DVD. At G2003 they sent offical behind the scenes are to be put on display, and at 2004 they filmed the con for the DVD.

So, try and organize. Get people together. It's fun also. I could always offer advice, I chaired the 2003 con, and if asked nicely, I know other con staffers who might be willing to consult.

As for what else, here's a post from Greg Weisman written back in 1997. While it mostly pertains to Gargoyles, I think it's still relevant...

This is something I wrote YEARS ago. But I don't think it's here in ASK GREG, or if it is, it's only in the old archives. Vash dug it up recently, and I thought I'd reprint it here, verbatim, I've added a few notes in [brackets]:
Life in the real world.

I know I've said this stuff before. Please read this carefully. I have a real fear that this might sound defeatist or condescending, but you can't possibly succeed in "saving" the show if you don't come to terms with these hard truths. I don't know what you've been told by other people. But I do know a few things about today's animation market. I've told you before that I did not believe that Gerry Leybourne was single-handedly responsible for not renewing the show. Dean Valentine is also not single-handedly responsible. Neither is Eisner. If the fans insist on looking for a VILLAIN to blame, they stand no chance. [Neither Leybourne or Valentine are at Disney anymore.] You say you're looking for a straight answer. But really you've been given and have ignored straight answers and what you are looking for is for simple answers. There are none. Here are some (but not all) of the many factors that have probably played into the non-renewal:

1) Quantity. A normal syndication package for any children's show is 65 episodes. If you don't make it up to 65 then you are considered something of a failure. If you make 65, then you have created a show that can have ongoing library use. That's a success. Anything above 65 is gravy and NO SHOW makes more than 65 episodes without significant financial incentive. They made 78 gargoyles (including Chronicles). The financial incentive for the last 13 was that ABC needed a boys action show with some "Marquee" attached to help fill out it's Saturday Morning line-up. You'll notice that no new episodes were made for syndication. There was no financial incentive in syndication. So they didn't make any more for syndication. [These days a syndication package can be as few as 39.]

2) Ratings. The ratings for Goliath Chronicles are, or so I'm told, lousy. Forget about the why for a moment, and just absorb this fact. If the ratings are lousy, we've just lost the financial incentive to make any more beyond the 13. On that level, Goliath Chronicles objectively failed. Gargoyles did a bit better in its day, but it never broke out and knocked down the competition. Aladdin did better business for Disney. And they're not making any more new Aladdin tv episodes either.

3) Shelf space. The Disney Afternoon, as we know it, is dead. The rise of FOX, the WB and UPN ate up almost all of the existing independent stations that aired the Disney Afternoon or (in lieu of the full two hour block) the individual shows that made up The Afternoon. We've known this was coming for awhile. Existing contracts kept the Afternoon alive through the end of this season. But after that it is gone in it's present form. Now, as I understand it, Disney has made a deal with Kelloggs to do a reduced version of the Afternoon. I think it's supposed to be an hour and a half long, with one new show and two library shows. The new show for next season is 101 Dalmations. For fall of 98, it's supposed to be HERCULES. There isn't room for new Gargoyles in syndication. ABC has similar problems. As a broadcast network, they've committed to air 3 hours of FCC/Kid friendly programming per week. That means 3 hours of their morning have to be reserved for that kind of programming, because unlike Fox, they don't have any other place in their schedule to air this FCC stuff. That only leaves them with about one and a half hours to fill their morning. They have an existing commitment to the Bugs Bunny cartoons that they air for an hour. That leaves them with one half hour slot to fill. Given Goliath Chronicles ratings, it just doesn't make sense to fill that one slot with a show that's failing, when you can take a chance on something new that might succeed.

4) Resources. The fans seem to regard Disney as this Giant that can do whatever it wants, and that's true up to a point. But Disney TV Animation has limited resources. There are only so many talented animators and storyboard artists out there. There's only so much money they can spend without profits to justify the expense. From Disney's point of view, Gargoyles had its shot. You and I may quibble about how that shot was handled. Whether it could have been handled better. I think everyone would acknowledge that mistakes were made. But not intentionally. EVERYONE at Disney wanted the show to be a huge success. IT WAS NOT. I wish I could tell you different. Creatively, I'm very proud of the show. We touched a substantial group of people. But an even more substantial group preferred POWER RANGERS on a consistent basis. They cleaned our clock. Disney has to decide how to allocate limited resources. If Gargoyles had 78 shots to be a hit, and didn't quite make it, you can see why they might think it's time to allocate their resources to something else.

5) Quality. Resources came into play with Goliath Chronicles. The decision was reached to allocate priority resources to shows and home videos that they believed had a better chance to break out. That's why Chronicles looks the way it does. In my opinion, the show is inferior to the original on almost every level. This doesn't mean that a lot of good people didn't work their butts off to make it as good as it could be. But limited resources result in limited success. The resource issue was the major reason why I walked away. I regret it now. The animation has been weak, but I should not have passed up the opportunity to tell twelve more of my stories. But that's spilled milk. Eric Lewald was under the gun from the moment he came on board the show. There wasn't adequate time to make the show at its previous quality level. There wasn't even adequate time for Eric to become as familiar with the show as I'm sure he would have liked to. I tried to help. I was paid to consult. But...

6) Time. Along with limited resources, the main reason Chronicles isn't up there is Time. The show didn't get a go ahead until late november '95. I began "The Journey" in December. Eric didn't really come aboard until January '96, as I recall. Look at where we are now. It's late February [1997]. Do you really want to see the GARGOYLES episode that would result if it started from scratch now and had to air in September [1997]? I WOULD NOT.

7) Expectations. I do believe that Disney in general views the show as a disappointment. They had tremendous high hopes for it. They rushed 52 episodes into production for it's second year despite my warning that they'd have to air a lot of reruns in between new episodes. The reruns, the weaker stations we were on and many other factors, including series content resulted in a solid but decidedly unspectacular performance. I do believe that the high expectations that many at Disney had for the show, led to greater disappointment in its real failure to break out and its perceived failure in general. That disappointment doesn't make a lot of people feel inclined to make more.

8) Strategy. O.k., I'm not at Disney anymore, so I'm not privy to their strategy meetings, but from outside observation, it doesn't seem like Gargoyles fits in their overall strategy plans. Maybe it never truly did. Now we can be mad about this. We can even try to change it. But first and foremost, we should be glad they made the show at all. Next we should realize that if it doesn't fit their plans, they aren't going to be too inclined to change them IN THE SHORT TERM.

9) Management. (The one I suppose you've been waiting for if you still insist on playing the blame game.) There has been a lot of management shake ups at Disney. Jeffrey Katzenberg, Rich Frank, Gary Krisel and Bruce Cranston all left. So did I. We were all supporters of the show. But Eisner didn't leave and he was a supporter too. I haven't talked to him recently. I don't know what he thinks about the show. Maybe he's disappointed. Maybe he's not. Maybe for him it's just the resource issue. Gotta take a shot with something new. Maybe he's not involved in this decision in a significant way. No way to know. But I wouldn't be so quick to label him a villain. It doesn't hurt to let him know that you love the show, but it can't help to blame him for its demise.

I don't know Gerry at all. I've never met her. I'm also a little vague on her responsibilities at Disney, thought I've heard she's responsible for scheduling ABC's Saturday morning. But before you blame her, or even guess at what she personally feels about the show, reread all the above, particularly the section on shelf space, strategy and ratings. Now she may not like the show. I have no idea. Neither do you. If she doesn't care for the show, I'd personally be curious to know what she bases her dislike on. Goliath Chronicles? Gargoyles? Both? Whatever, she's entitled to her opinion.

I've met Dean. I've heard that Gargoyles isn't his thing. I've heard that he believes that it may not be Disney's thing either. But I don't know any of that. And again, Dean's personal view of the show is, positive OR negative, way down on the list of reasons not to make more. See above.

Buena Vista. Mort Marcus ran Buena Vista at the time I left Disney. I have no idea if he's still there. Mort was a big early supporter of the show. He was also very disappointed when it didn't perform up to expectations. Buena Vista is taking its next shots with Dalmations and Hercules. But even if the Afternoon had survived, there wouldn't be any new episodes of Gargoyles in syndication. Look at the Disney Afternoon's history. A new show premieres with new episodes. Over the next few years, the reruns move down through the Afternoon. That's cause they couldn't afford the MILLIONS of Dollars that it would take to make new episodes for early time slots that don't deliver very many kids. If there aren't any (or many) butts sitting in front of the t.v. then advertisers don't want their products advertised there, in which case they don't pay much for commercials. So networks won't pay much for the shows, so the shows operate at HUGE budget deficits. Gargoyles operated at a huge deficit. Ultimately, I'm sure it will make an overall profit for the company. It may have already. But let's not pretend this was the LION KING.

Other divisions. Some did better than others. But no one is clamoring for more gargoyles product, so none of the other divisions are clamoring for more shows.

SO WHAT DO WE DO?

We begin by admitting, at least to ourselves, that in the short term, we lost the battle.

Then we go on and try to win the war.

We have one big chance and a general small chance. Both are long shots.

The Big Chance is the Touchstone Live Action Feature. If this ever gets made and if it succeeds, then there will be renewed interest in the show.

The general chance is that television is cyclical. He-Man rules until DuckTales comes along. Rescue Rangers rule until Batman comes along. Soft and quirky is big now. But times change. And Gargoyles has a marquee. (It's a trifle damaged, but it's real.) There's a chance it could come back.

The best thing we can do is keep the flame burning. Keep executives, particularly if there's any executive turnover, informed that there is a fan base for the property. Write letters to Buena Vista, to Eisner, to ABC, to Disney TV Animation, to Touchstone. Write letters to local stations, asking them to air reruns. Write letters to the Disney Channel for the same thing. If the reruns are airing in the U.S., we have a much better chance of someday making new episodes. Keep these letters respectful. Don't try to assign blame. My god, what difference does that make. If I thought it would help I'd take 100% of the blame myself. I certainly deserve some of it. Just let people know that you loved the show. Praise it's virtues. Show "Deadly Force", "Lighthouse..." and "The Green" at grade schools. Make the GATHERING a yearly event. Increase it's budget and scope on a slow and steady basis until it becomes an important event. (Don't try to get too big too fast. If you go bust early on, you won't get a second chance.) Keep the fan base excited about the show. (This to me is the main virtue to the whole fanfic thing, which I have many mixed feelings about. If it keeps the fans interested, great.) Don't let the fans marginalize themselves with hostility or esoterica. If they get territorial they keep new fans out. No new fans. No new episodes. Prove to Disney that you are part of that great consumer demographic that they are hunting for. BUY STUFF. Buy all the stuff you can find. Prove that the show can still make money for the company. Buy all the videos off the shelf. Then write Disney's home video division and have them make more. More copies of existing tapes and more episodes on tape. Show those taped episodes to new fans. Particularly young fans. Adults and college kids are great too, but if kids don't like the show, we are doomed. Try to convince Disney records to release Carl's music on C.D. Buy animation cells from authorized Disney dealers. Talk it up.

As for the petition, hell, make copies. Send it a lot of places. Buena Vista for sure. Don't worry about whether or not it's read cover to cover by the president of the division (Mort Marcus, I think). It'll make an impression. But I don't see why you shouldn't send it to Gerry too. Send it to Dean Valentine at Disney T.V. Animation. Send it to Barry Blumberg (at the same place). Have someone in every market send it to their local ABC affiliate. Gerry isn't giving you bad advice there. If the local stations want the show, they'll make their voices heard at the network. (But remember, you need locals to send it to local stations. A petition postmarked Newark won't be taken very seriously in Cleveland.) Send it anywhere you think it might help. But you might want to read it over first. If it's full of hostile and antagonistic attacks, then we've marginalized the petition. Also try to make sure that there's no doubling up. If people signed the petition twice and Disney figures that out, then they'll figure the entire document is compromised, and they'll freely ignore it. If it's a rational statement from real existing fans than I promise you it'll make a positive impression.

But I don't want to kid you. We are probably past the point of no return, at least for this coming fall [1997]. I appreciate that you refuse to give up, and I'm not telling you to. But if you want to save yourself some heartbreak, I think you might want to start focusing on the long term instead of the short term. Even if we could change everyone's minds overnight, we've all but run out of time to put new episodes of any quality on the air by September. I don't like saying that, but I figure it doesn't help anyone to beat around the bush.

Now let me say in advance that most of this won't work. Sorry. The odds are against us. I take some consolation in knowing I was involved with 66 episodes that I can be proud of. I told the stories I wanted to tell. Not nearly all of them, but many. I ended it with Hunter's Moon and Journey, in a way that gave us some small closure but left it open in case I get another shot. A shot I'm longing for. All this offers some consolation. I hope you and the other fans feel the same. It's something to hold onto through what's bound to be a LOT OF REJECTION. There are no guarantees that we'll ever get the show back on the air in any form. But what I've written above is the most practical plan I can think of. If I can help in any way, let me know.

Otherwise, Good Luck. You are going to need it.

GREG

[tucsoncoyote]

And all that stuff is well and good. Glad to see you're doing that. But to be frank, a fan convention is what will really grab their attention. The Gargoyles fandom had all that stuff too, but we also had the convention. Each year a group of dedicated fans got together to plan a convention.

We actually didn't think we'd get Disney's attention, then, come G2002, we found out we did, and in a positive way. They sent t-shirts and let us know they were planning the DVD. At G2003 they sent offical behind the scenes are to be put on display, and at 2004 they filmed the con for the DVD.

So, try and organize. Get people together. It's fun also. I could always offer advice, I chaired the 2003 con, and if asked nicely, I know other con staffers who might be willing to consult.

As for what else, here's a post from Greg Weisman written back in 1997. While it mostly pertains to Gargoyles, I think it's still relevant...

This is something I wrote YEARS ago. But I don't think it's here in ASK GREG, or if it is, it's only in the old archives. Vash dug it up recently, and I thought I'd reprint it here, verbatim, I've added a few notes in [brackets]:
Life in the real world.

I know I've said this stuff before. Please read this carefully. I have a real fear that this might sound defeatist or condescending, but you can't possibly succeed in "saving" the show if you don't come to terms with these hard truths. I don't know what you've been told by other people. But I do know a few things about today's animation market. I've told you before that I did not believe that Gerry Leybourne was single-handedly responsible for not renewing the show. Dean Valentine is also not single-handedly responsible. Neither is Eisner. If the fans insist on looking for a VILLAIN to blame, they stand no chance. [Neither Leybourne or Valentine are at Disney anymore.] You say you're looking for a straight answer. But really you've been given and have ignored straight answers and what you are looking for is for simple answers. There are none. Here are some (but not all) of the many factors that have probably played into the non-renewal:

1) Quantity. A normal syndication package for any children's show is 65 episodes. If you don't make it up to 65 then you are considered something of a failure. If you make 65, then you have created a show that can have ongoing library use. That's a success. Anything above 65 is gravy and NO SHOW makes more than 65 episodes without significant financial incentive. They made 78 gargoyles (including Chronicles). The financial incentive for the last 13 was that ABC needed a boys action show with some "Marquee" attached to help fill out it's Saturday Morning line-up. You'll notice that no new episodes were made for syndication. There was no financial incentive in syndication. So they didn't make any more for syndication. [These days a syndication package can be as few as 39.]

2) Ratings. The ratings for Goliath Chronicles are, or so I'm told, lousy. Forget about the why for a moment, and just absorb this fact. If the ratings are lousy, we've just lost the financial incentive to make any more beyond the 13. On that level, Goliath Chronicles objectively failed. Gargoyles did a bit better in its day, but it never broke out and knocked down the competition. Aladdin did better business for Disney. And they're not making any more new Aladdin tv episodes either.

3) Shelf space. The Disney Afternoon, as we know it, is dead. The rise of FOX, the WB and UPN ate up almost all of the existing independent stations that aired the Disney Afternoon or (in lieu of the full two hour block) the individual shows that made up The Afternoon. We've known this was coming for awhile. Existing contracts kept the Afternoon alive through the end of this season. But after that it is gone in it's present form. Now, as I understand it, Disney has made a deal with Kelloggs to do a reduced version of the Afternoon. I think it's supposed to be an hour and a half long, with one new show and two library shows. The new show for next season is 101 Dalmations. For fall of 98, it's supposed to be HERCULES. There isn't room for new Gargoyles in syndication. ABC has similar problems. As a broadcast network, they've committed to air 3 hours of FCC/Kid friendly programming per week. That means 3 hours of their morning have to be reserved for that kind of programming, because unlike Fox, they don't have any other place in their schedule to air this FCC stuff. That only leaves them with about one and a half hours to fill their morning. They have an existing commitment to the Bugs Bunny cartoons that they air for an hour. That leaves them with one half hour slot to fill. Given Goliath Chronicles ratings, it just doesn't make sense to fill that one slot with a show that's failing, when you can take a chance on something new that might succeed.

4) Resources. The fans seem to regard Disney as this Giant that can do whatever it wants, and that's true up to a point. But Disney TV Animation has limited resources. There are only so many talented animators and storyboard artists out there. There's only so much money they can spend without profits to justify the expense. From Disney's point of view, Gargoyles had its shot. You and I may quibble about how that shot was handled. Whether it could have been handled better. I think everyone would acknowledge that mistakes were made. But not intentionally. EVERYONE at Disney wanted the show to be a huge success. IT WAS NOT. I wish I could tell you different. Creatively, I'm very proud of the show. We touched a substantial group of people. But an even more substantial group preferred POWER RANGERS on a consistent basis. They cleaned our clock. Disney has to decide how to allocate limited resources. If Gargoyles had 78 shots to be a hit, and didn't quite make it, you can see why they might think it's time to allocate their resources to something else.

5) Quality. Resources came into play with Goliath Chronicles. The decision was reached to allocate priority resources to shows and home videos that they believed had a better chance to break out. That's why Chronicles looks the way it does. In my opinion, the show is inferior to the original on almost every level. This doesn't mean that a lot of good people didn't work their butts off to make it as good as it could be. But limited resources result in limited success. The resource issue was the major reason why I walked away. I regret it now. The animation has been weak, but I should not have passed up the opportunity to tell twelve more of my stories. But that's spilled milk. Eric Lewald was under the gun from the moment he came on board the show. There wasn't adequate time to make the show at its previous quality level. There wasn't even adequate time for Eric to become as familiar with the show as I'm sure he would have liked to. I tried to help. I was paid to consult. But...

6) Time. Along with limited resources, the main reason Chronicles isn't up there is Time. The show didn't get a go ahead until late november '95. I began "The Journey" in December. Eric didn't really come aboard until January '96, as I recall. Look at where we are now. It's late February [1997]. Do you really want to see the GARGOYLES episode that would result if it started from scratch now and had to air in September [1997]? I WOULD NOT.

7) Expectations. I do believe that Disney in general views the show as a disappointment. They had tremendous high hopes for it. They rushed 52 episodes into production for it's second year despite my warning that they'd have to air a lot of reruns in between new episodes. The reruns, the weaker stations we were on and many other factors, including series content resulted in a solid but decidedly unspectacular performance. I do believe that the high expectations that many at Disney had for the show, led to greater disappointment in its real failure to break out and its perceived failure in general. That disappointment doesn't make a lot of people feel inclined to make more.

8) Strategy. O.k., I'm not at Disney anymore, so I'm not privy to their strategy meetings, but from outside observation, it doesn't seem like Gargoyles fits in their overall strategy plans. Maybe it never truly did. Now we can be mad about this. We can even try to change it. But first and foremost, we should be glad they made the show at all. Next we should realize that if it doesn't fit their plans, they aren't going to be too inclined to change them IN THE SHORT TERM.

9) Management. (The one I suppose you've been waiting for if you still insist on playing the blame game.) There has been a lot of management shake ups at Disney. Jeffrey Katzenberg, Rich Frank, Gary Krisel and Bruce Cranston all left. So did I. We were all supporters of the show. But Eisner didn't leave and he was a supporter too. I haven't talked to him recently. I don't know what he thinks about the show. Maybe he's disappointed. Maybe he's not. Maybe for him it's just the resource issue. Gotta take a shot with something new. Maybe he's not involved in this decision in a significant way. No way to know. But I wouldn't be so quick to label him a villain. It doesn't hurt to let him know that you love the show, but it can't help to blame him for its demise.

I don't know Gerry at all. I've never met her. I'm also a little vague on her responsibilities at Disney, thought I've heard she's responsible for scheduling ABC's Saturday morning. But before you blame her, or even guess at what she personally feels about the show, reread all the above, particularly the section on shelf space, strategy and ratings. Now she may not like the show. I have no idea. Neither do you. If she doesn't care for the show, I'd personally be curious to know what she bases her dislike on. Goliath Chronicles? Gargoyles? Both? Whatever, she's entitled to her opinion.

I've met Dean. I've heard that Gargoyles isn't his thing. I've heard that he believes that it may not be Disney's thing either. But I don't know any of that. And again, Dean's personal view of the show is, positive OR negative, way down on the list of reasons not to make more. See above.

Buena Vista. Mort Marcus ran Buena Vista at the time I left Disney. I have no idea if he's still there. Mort was a big early supporter of the show. He was also very disappointed when it didn't perform up to expectations. Buena Vista is taking its next shots with Dalmations and Hercules. But even if the Afternoon had survived, there wouldn't be any new episodes of Gargoyles in syndication. Look at the Disney Afternoon's history. A new show premieres with new episodes. Over the next few years, the reruns move down through the Afternoon. That's cause they couldn't afford the MILLIONS of Dollars that it would take to make new episodes for early time slots that don't deliver very many kids. If there aren't any (or many) butts sitting in front of the t.v. then advertisers don't want their products advertised there, in which case they don't pay much for commercials. So networks won't pay much for the shows, so the shows operate at HUGE budget deficits. Gargoyles operated at a huge deficit. Ultimately, I'm sure it will make an overall profit for the company. It may have already. But let's not pretend this was the LION KING.

Other divisions. Some did better than others. But no one is clamoring for more gargoyles product, so none of the other divisions are clamoring for more shows.

SO WHAT DO WE DO?

We begin by admitting, at least to ourselves, that in the short term, we lost the battle.

Then we go on and try to win the war.

We have one big chance and a general small chance. Both are long shots.

The Big Chance is the Touchstone Live Action Feature. If this ever gets made and if it succeeds, then there will be renewed interest in the show.

The general chance is that television is cyclical. He-Man rules until DuckTales comes along. Rescue Rangers rule until Batman comes along. Soft and quirky is big now. But times change. And Gargoyles has a marquee. (It's a trifle damaged, but it's real.) There's a chance it could come back.

The best thing we can do is keep the flame burning. Keep executives, particularly if there's any executive turnover, informed that there is a fan base for the property. Write letters to Buena Vista, to Eisner, to ABC, to Disney TV Animation, to Touchstone. Write letters to local stations, asking them to air reruns. Write letters to the Disney Channel for the same thing. If the reruns are airing in the U.S., we have a much better chance of someday making new episodes. Keep these letters respectful. Don't try to assign blame. My god, what difference does that make. If I thought it would help I'd take 100% of the blame myself. I certainly deserve some of it. Just let people know that you loved the show. Praise it's virtues. Show "Deadly Force", "Lighthouse..." and "The Green" at grade schools. Make the GATHERING a yearly event. Increase it's budget and scope on a slow and steady basis until it becomes an important event. (Don't try to get too big too fast. If you go bust early on, you won't get a second chance.) Keep the fan base excited about the show. (This to me is the main virtue to the whole fanfic thing, which I have many mixed feelings about. If it keeps the fans interested, great.) Don't let the fans marginalize themselves with hostility or esoterica. If they get territorial they keep new fans out. No new fans. No new episodes. Prove to Disney that you are part of that great consumer demographic that they are hunting for. BUY STUFF. Buy all the stuff you can find. Prove that the show can still make money for the company. Buy all the videos off the shelf. Then write Disney's home video division and have them make more. More copies of existing tapes and more episodes on tape. Show those taped episodes to new fans. Particularly young fans. Adults and college kids are great too, but if kids don't like the show, we are doomed. Try to convince Disney records to release Carl's music on C.D. Buy animation cells from authorized Disney dealers. Talk it up.

As for the petition, hell, make copies. Send it a lot of places. Buena Vista for sure. Don't worry about whether or not it's read cover to cover by the president of the division (Mort Marcus, I think). It'll make an impression. But I don't see why you shouldn't send it to Gerry too. Send it to Dean Valentine at Disney T.V. Animation. Send it to Barry Blumberg (at the same place). Have someone in every market send it to their local ABC affiliate. Gerry isn't giving you bad advice there. If the local stations want the show, they'll make their voices heard at the network. (But remember, you need locals to send it to local stations. A petition postmarked Newark won't be taken very seriously in Cleveland.) Send it anywhere you think it might help. But you might want to read it over first. If it's full of hostile and antagonistic attacks, then we've marginalized the petition. Also try to make sure that there's no doubling up. If people signed the petition twice and Disney figures that out, then they'll figure the entire document is compromised, and they'll freely ignore it. If it's a rational statement from real existing fans than I promise you it'll make a positive impression.

But I don't want to kid you. We are probably past the point of no return, at least for this coming fall [1997]. I appreciate that you refuse to give up, and I'm not telling you to. But if you want to save yourself some heartbreak, I think you might want to start focusing on the long term instead of the short term. Even if we could change everyone's minds overnight, we've all but run out of time to put new episodes of any quality on the air by September. I don't like saying that, but I figure it doesn't help anyone to beat around the bush.

Now let me say in advance that most of this won't work. Sorry. The odds are against us. I take some consolation in knowing I was involved with 66 episodes that I can be proud of. I told the stories I wanted to tell. Not nearly all of them, but many. I ended it with Hunter's Moon and Journey, in a way that gave us some small closure but left it open in case I get another shot. A shot I'm longing for. All this offers some consolation. I hope you and the other fans feel the same. It's something to hold onto through what's bound to be a LOT OF REJECTION. There are no guarantees that we'll ever get the show back on the air in any form. But what I've written above is the most practical plan I can think of. If I can help in any way, let me know.

Otherwise, Good Luck. You are going to need it.

GREG Greg, I believe you, frankly though I do have to point out that you're comments are very spot on.. I've read about really who is doing this.. now then this question comes back as to one simple question.. Why?

why is it that these Middle level Management people are making decisions that are soley based on Profit and loss margins, and not on Ratings.. That's what keeps a show going Ratings..

Ratings after all is what kept shows Like Mash going for 12 years and sad to say this it's also the same thing that has turned the Simpsons into a "Nightmarish" Wasteland. of bad shows..

Frankly again I believe your statements here but i would like to add in one thing.. we want to see a sort of balance here.. and right now there's an imbalance.. that's somethiing we can all agree upon correct?

after all I personally would love to see one of these Gargoyles Conventions I would love to talk to Mr. Weisman, and in fact I would love to see how he feels about this.. After all Like you said it wasn't his nor Eisner's Decision to terminate the show but rather someone who is mid-level management.. that's all the more reaosn why us fans have to do what we have to do, and that is bring balance back.. even if we have to do it one fan and customer at a time (GregX, we value people as customers after all they are paying the cable bill for Disney!)

So that's our point.. at least there's some common Ground here.. and I respect that..

:coyote:

[Dee]

This thread has turned into a complaint fest about Disney. There is a specific place for complaints.

On top of that, there's in-thread spamming of links.

Thread closed.