Shayera Hol: A villain in denial?

[Style]

Lately, I've been thinking about the Superhero genre as a whole. Where it came from, where it's going, and most importantly, what it means. What lessons can be learned from these stories? What great truths can be extracted?

Classic characters like Superman and Batman can be discussed, but I prefer to think today about Justice League's Hawkgirl, who is Justice League's greatest original characterization. What does her story mean to us?

Obviously her key character moment was when she briefly became a villain to the League. Yet what strikes me is that she never meant to be nefarious. Even the much lauded Batman villains, who often were basically good people in bad circumstances, did choose selfish coping methods, like revenge. But Shayera, at every turn only tried to do the right thing. She chose to serve in the Thanagarian army to protect her people. She chose an information gathering assignment on earth to help protect her people. She even chose to help protect the earth while on assignment by working with the League. Sure, they wanted info on the League's weaknesses from her, but she probably figured that was just for security reasons incase of emergency. (Even Batman carries Kryptonite.) She had no idea what her people's plans were. When she found out they intended to destroy, she felt loyalty to earth and betrayed her people. All of her attempts at trying to do the right thing ended up hurting the people she cared about.

Even her return to action involved betrayal. She came back specifically to try to spare Grundy from having to be destroyed, and ended up the one who destroyed him. What does this mean then? Why does every heroic action she undertake end in the betrayal or destruction of those around her? Those she cares for? Is she predestined to destroy?

Maxie Zeus has postulated on his Batman site that BTAS follows a Calvinistic philosophy of predestination. My favorite analysis of his was of "House and Garden," where he states that while Poison Ivy wanted something good and pure, she was predestined to have to pursue it in sick and twisted ways. Can Shayera Hol be in a similar situation? Was she meant to be a destroyer and betrayer, a villain, and that's why her attempts at altruism are always frustrated?

So what does this mean for her future? The end of "Wake the Dead" implies she is coming back to the League, but can she really? At this point, two whole planets full of people expect the worst from her, and she doesn't really argue the point. Can she even be a hero now? Or find peace? Or is she destined to betray what friends she still has again?

What's her next move?

[Fone Bone]

Hawkgirl goes around saving people's lives. Poison Ivy does not. They are completely different.

[Style]

Hawkgirl goes around saving people's lives. Poison Ivy does not. They are completely different.
No. They are not. Poison Ivy of House and Garden has a lot to do with Shayera Hol right now. In that episode, Poison Ivy wanted a family, but was essentially "forced" by unseen forces to pursue one in an inappropriate, perverse way. Her intentions were GOOD, but they turned to dust.

Similarly, Shayera's intentions were good too. But everytime she tries to do something good, it falls apart. She's betrayed or destroyed everyone she values. Again, she tries to do Good, but the very DC animated universe is working against her. That's a tragic position.

[Spidey2099]

Yeah...but wasn't Ivy also trying to murder wealthy single bachelors?

[nicklyaine]

No doubt Shayera Hol is in for some difficult times ahead. Can the League trust her again? Can the people of Earth trust her again? Can she regain the lively warrior spirit that made her such a formidable crimefighter and a well-loved and respected Justice Leaguer? Do she and John Stewart have a future? Only time will tell, but Shayera is NOT nor has she ever been a villain. She's not psychotic and she's not self serving, so let's not overanalyze here. Given the no-win situation Shayera was in, she made choices that she felt in her heart were right. Unfortunately, even good intentions can cause more harm than good sometimes. What especially bugs me about her situation is that it's so easy for everyone to call her a traitor, but would any of us have acted differently if we were in her situation? Seriously, could any of us picture ourselves betraying Earth, our home planet, to save another? Once we all realize and understand what she sacrificed, Shayera is more of a hero than ever; betraying her home planet to save the Earth. The public doesn't know the extent of Shayera's situation, so they would be understandably distrustful of her. Her League teammates though know her better than anyone else, so I would be shocked and disappointed if any of them insisted on holding a lengthy grudge against her, yes even Diana and Batman. If they do, then they were never her friends to begin with. Shayera Hol is a hero that made some bad choices in life, but SHE IS NOT A VILLAIN!

[Style]

Yeah...but wasn't Ivy also trying to murder wealthy single bachelors?
uh... Can we forget that I even mentioned Poison Ivy? The point is Hawkgirl tries to be a hero but forces beyond her control keep turning her into a villain. Please, just discuss that.

[Style]

No doubt Shayera Hol is in for some difficult times ahead. Can the League trust her again? Can the people of Earth trust her again? Can she regain the lively warrior spirit that made her such a formidable crimefighter and a well-loved and respected Justice Leaguer? Do she and John Stewart have a future? Only time will tell, but Shayera is NOT nor has she ever been a villain. She's not psychotic and she's not self serving, so let's not overanalyze here. Given the no-win situation Shayera was in, she made choices that she felt in her heart were right. Unfortunately, even good intentions can cause more harm than good sometimes. What especially bugs me about her situation is that it's so easy for everyone to call her a traitor, but would any of us have acted differently if we were in her situation? Seriously, could any of us picture ourselves betraying Earth, our home planet, to save another? Once we all realize and understand what she sacrificed, Shayera is more of a hero than ever; betraying her home planet to save the Earth. The public doesn't know the extent of Shayera's situation, so they would be understandably distrustful of her. Her League teammates though know her better than anyone else, so I would be shocked and disappointed if any of them insisted on holding a lengthy grudge against her, yes even Diana and Batman. If they do, then they were never her friends to begin with. Shayera Hol is a hero that made some bad choices in life, but SHE IS NOT A VILLAIN!
But I bet she feels like a villain. Neither Thanagar nor earth were happy with her at the end of Starcrossed. She wasn't happy with herself at the end of Wake the Dead. She got involved there to save Grundy, and instead she had to deliver the death blow.

Every good she tries to do backfires. At this point it wouldn't surprise me if the mother and child she saved in Wake the Dead turn out to be the first carriers of a deadly supervirus that kills off a quarter of the world's population, and Hawkgirl gets blamed because she saved them.

[nicklyaine]

But I bet she feels like a villain. Neither Thanagar nor earth were happy with her at the end of Starcrossed. She wasn't happy with herself at the end of Wake the Dead. She got involved there to save Grundy, and instead she had to deliver the death blow.

Every good she tries to do backfires. At this point it wouldn't surprise me if the mother and child she saved in Wake the Dead turn out to be the first carriers of a deadly supervirus that kills off a quarter of the world's population, and Hawkgirl gets blamed because she saved them. You touched on a good point. Shayera has been her own worst critic. Even if the League and the world clear her of any wrongdoing, she may never forgive herself. Even though she had to turn against them, her people still weigh heavily on her mind. Even before Starcrossed, Shayera never felt she was worthy of John Stewart's love, now she feels terrible for breaking his heart. Shayera's crushed spirit is heartwrenching to see; sadly, she may never be the same again.

[Sue]

Shayera's not a villian. She was in very difficult situations and had to make a choice. Even though people got hurt as a result, she did was what right in the end. That's life sometimes.

[paulie]

Every good she tries to do backfires. At this point it wouldn't surprise me if the mother and child she saved in Wake the Dead turn out to be the first carriers of a deadly supervirus that kills off a quarter of the world's population, and Hawkgirl gets blamed because she saved them.

Talk about "starcrossed" heh heh. OK bad joke.

When I think about HG's situation, 2 things come to mind:

1) Is the universe really set on having her be miserable? If so, that really sucks for her. Not much else to say.

2) HG is a compelling character because, IMO, she's the most "human" of the group. She makes mistakes, she feels guilt, she tries to redeem herself. She doesn't fit into the classic hero or villian archetypes, which, for me, is cool to watch unfold, especially against the background of other static moral/evil characters in the show. Makes me want to watch to see what happens.

If she's denying anything, she's denying forgiving herself. I don't see her as a villian, but it would be tough for her to be a hero again too.

[Supremus]

So she came good in the end, but it still doesn't change the fact that she technically committed an act of treason which led to Earth being invaded and nearly destroyed. Intentional or not, that's the kind of blunder even President Bunnypants couldn't weasel his way out of.

Apart from people being a little bit miffed with her, I wonder if there shouldn't be legal consequences now that she has come out of hiding? With the popularity of "independent investigations" these days, shouldn't somebody ask her a few tough questions? At the very least she should have to explain herself on Larry King in front of a specially invited guest-panel including Columbus Zoo's own "Jungle" Jack Hannah. Now that would be worth TIVO'ing :)

[Antiyonder]

Ivy tried to justify her crime, whereas Hawkgirl took responsibility for hers.

[lostrune]

Shayera is a villain. That's the good thing about her. :p

[Fone Bone]

uh... Can we forget that I even mentioned Poison Ivy? The point is Hawkgirl tries to be a hero but forces beyond her control keep turning her into a villain. Please, just discuss that. Kinda hard to since you compared her to Shayera twice.

[Harley_Quinn]

2) HG is a compelling character because, IMO, she's the most "human" of the group. She makes mistakes, she feels guilt, she tries to redeem herself. She doesn't fit into the classic hero or villian archetypes, which, for me, is cool to watch unfold, especially against the background of other static moral/evil characters in the show. Makes me want to watch to see what happens.

If she's denying anything, she's denying forgiving herself. I don't see her as a villian, but it would be tough for her to be a hero again too.Took the words right out of my mouth. I think that is what is so great about her character. She is conflicted in her action and there are consequences to what she does. I don't think she's a villian just a person tring her best to do what right and, like it real life it, doesn't work out all the time.

[Merlin Missy]

So she came good in the end, but it still doesn't change the fact that she technically committed an act of treason which led to Earth being invaded and nearly destroyed. Okay, everyone repeat after me: espionage. Treason is when a person betrays his or her sworn homeland/allies. She committed treason, yes, but only when she set foot in the Batcave. Prior to that, she committed multiple acts of espionage because she was loyal to her homeland. As I've said in other threads, unless there was a scene (even off-camera) where she pledged her loyalty to Earth and/or the League, the other JL members had no reason to believe her first loyalty was to them. (Even with her cover story, she admitted to having a home that still existed, that she was not banished from, and that she longed to return to, which separated her from J'onn and Superman and also Diana.)

The tricky part comes in when we ask, did she reveal any actual "state" secrets? She gave the Thanagarians the League members' weaknesses, but as others have pointed out, most of these are (semi)common knowledge already. She gave the Thangarians the Watchtower access codes, but while it did mean a matter of national/world security, it wasn't *exactly* a state secret, either. There's a subtle difference between giving your pals the codes to open the garage, and the codes to launch nuclear missiles. (Although with the new Watchtower, maybe that difference goes away.)

There should be (and probably has been) an investigation, but the question which we probably won't get a solid answer to is, did she give them information that she had special access to? (Again, other than the Watchtower codes.) That would mean the difference between betrayal of trust and national/world security level espionage and resultant punishment (likely incarceration). The biggest law-breaking she did was aiding and abetting the hostile takeover of the planet. She was an enemy combatant, if you want to use modern terminology. :P She also provided valuable information to the Earth Resistance at great personal risk (she was caught and probably would have stood trial by her own people). Whether that would mitigate any punishment for the aiding and abetting remains (not) to be seen.

MM:)

[Fone Bone]

Okay, everyone repeat after me: espionage. Treason is when a person betrays his or her sworn homeland/allies. She committed treason, yes, but only when she set foot in the Batcave. Prior to that, she committed multiple acts of espionage because she was loyal to her homeland. As I've said in other threads, unless there was a scene (even off-camera) where she pledged her loyalty to Earth and/or the League, the other JL members had no reason to believe her first loyalty was to them. (Even with her cover story, she admitted to having a home that still existed, that she was not banished from, and that she longed to return to, which separated her from J'onn and Superman and also Diana.)

The tricky part comes in when we ask, did she reveal any actual "state" secrets? She gave the Thanagarians the League members' weaknesses, but as others have pointed out, most of these are (semi)common knowledge already. She gave the Thangarians the Watchtower access codes, but while it did mean a matter of national/world security, it wasn't *exactly* a state secret, either. There's a subtle difference between giving your pals the codes to open the garage, and the codes to launch nuclear missiles. (Although with the new Watchtower, maybe that difference goes away.)

There should be (and probably has been) an investigation, but the question which we probably won't get a solid answer to is, did she give them information that she had special access to? (Again, other than the Watchtower codes.) That would mean the difference between betrayal of trust and national/world security level espionage and resultant punishment (likely incarceration). The biggest law-breaking she did was aiding and abetting the hostile takeover of the planet. She was an enemy combatant, if you want to use modern terminology. :P She also provided valuable information to the Earth Resistance at great personal risk (she was caught and probably would have stood trial by her own people). Whether that would mitigate any punishment for the aiding and abetting remains (not) to be seen.

MM:)I could totally see her getting the death penalty from the Thanagarians. (Hmm, a penalty. It's like hockey but not quite as rough.) She never swore allegiance to Earth, so it wasn't treason. The ultimate Kobiyashi Maru. (You Star Trek geeks know what that is.)

[Supremus]

Okay, everyone repeat after me: espionage. Treason is when a person betrays his or her sworn homeland/allies...Are you saying she was an illegal alien? The plot thickens.

[Merlin Missy]

^ *snicker*

MM:)

[Style]

Kinda hard to since you compared her to Shayera twice.
The reason I said forget about it is because everyone kept missing the point I was trying to make. And if no one saw the that point, then maybe it is my fault.

The point, restated, is that Hawkgirl is pre-destined to always betray and destroy the ones she loves. Always. And whenever she tries to defend and help the ones she loves, that ends in failure. I pondered if she was a villain in denial: the idea that she doesn't want to be a villain, she wants to be a hero, but because she is meant to be a villain by the forces that govern the universe, all her heroic aspirations are in vain.

And to understand the point I was making about Poison Ivy, read this (http://anbat.toonzone.net/btas/hag.html) article on "House and Garden" by Maxie Zeus, especially the last paragraph. And his review of the Batman Beyond episode "Zeta (http://anbat.toonzone.net/bb/zeta.html)" better demonstrates his postulation about the DCAU's calvinistic state, which I've based my theory on.

[Fone Bone]

The reason I said forget about it is because everyone kept missing the point I was trying to make. And if no one saw the that point, then maybe it is my fault.

The point, restated, is that Hawkgirl is pre-destined to always betray and destroy the ones she loves. Always. And whenever she tries to defend and help the ones she loves, that ends in failure. I pondered if she was a villain in denial: the idea that she doesn't want to be a villain, she wants to be a hero, but because she is meant to be a villain by the forces that govern the universe, all her heroic aspirations are in vain.

And to understand the point I was making about Poison Ivy, read this (http://anbat.toonzone.net/btas/hag.html) article on "House and Garden" by Maxie Zeus, especially the last paragraph. And his review of the Batman Beyond episode "Zeta (http://anbat.toonzone.net/bb/zeta.html)" better demonstrates his postulation about the DCAU's calvinistic state, which I've based my theory on.Seeing as it's only happened twice let's see where JLU takes us for another 41 episodes before we call her a lost cause.

[I-Am That Is]

And to understand the point I was making about Poison Ivy, read this (http://anbat.toonzone.net/btas/hag.html) article on "House and Garden" by Maxie Zeus, especially the last paragraph. And his review of the Batman Beyond episode "Zeta (http://anbat.toonzone.net/bb/zeta.html)" better demonstrates his postulation about the DCAU's calvinistic state, which I've based my theory on.But then how do people like Arnold Wexler, Solomon Grundy, & Rubber Band Man fit into this?

All of them are villains who reformed, & even, in the case of RBM, became heroes.

[Fone Bone]

But then how do people like Arnold Wexler, Solomon Grundy, & Rubber Band Man fit into this?

All of them are villains who reformed, & even, in the case of RBM, became heroes.Grundy became a hero too.

I love Rubberband Man. Redemption is a cool thing for a cartoon show to be concerned with. (See Joss Whedon again.):anime:

[Style]

Seeing as it's only happened twice let's see where JLU takes us for another 41 episodes before we call her a lost cause.
But don't misunderstand me: I make the point not to level some empty-headed Anti-Hawkgirl sentiment against the character. I really love her and would prefer her to have happy ending. But- It just seems that she is constantly frustrated by her Superhero pursuits, so it seems to me she's not meant to be a hero in the Justice League sense. I just wonder how she can find her peace.



But then how do people like Arnold Wexler, Solomon Grundy, & Rubber Band Man fit into this?

All of them are villains who reformed, & even, in the case of RBM, became heroes.

I don't think Grundy reformed in "Terror Beyond." He killed Ithultu, sure, but it was ultimately for a self-serving reason. Hawkgirl was just grateful that Grundy saved her life, however unintenionally.

The other two I can't speak too. I know Rubber Band man is on Static, and I haven't seen much of it, and I can't remember an Arnolder Wexler... you don't mean Wesker, do you?

[Fone Bone]

But don't misunderstand me: I make the point not to level some empty-headed Anti-Hawkgirl sentiment against the character. I really love her and would prefer her to have happy ending. But- It just seems that she is constantly frustrated by her Superhero pursuits, so it seems to me she's not meant to be a hero in the Justice League sense. I just wonder how she can find her peace.


I don't think Grundy reformed in "Terror Beyond." He killed Ithultu, sure, but it was ultimately for a self-serving reason. Hawkgirl was just grateful that Grundy saved her life, however unintenionally.

The other two I can't speak too. I know Rubber Band man is on Static, and I haven't seen much of it, and I can't remember an Arnolder Wexler... you don't mean Wesker, do you?As for Grundy not reforming, yeah, I can agree with that. Nevertheless his sacrifice was heroic. A person can be a hero regardless of their intentions.

And Rubberband Man is the best character on Static Shock.

[I-Am That Is]

I can't remember an Arnolder Wexler... you don't mean Wesker, do you?
I was referring to the Ventriloquist.

[Style]

I was referring to the Ventriloquist.
Oh, okay. The point there is that the Ventriloquist personality was never a villain, but Scarface is. In order for Wesker to reform, he would have to elimate the Scarface personality, which is proving harder than anyone thought, or the Scarface personality itself would have to reform. But I think Wesker is stuck as a villain for some time now.



I love Rubberband Man. Redemption is a cool thing for a cartoon show to be concerned with. (See Joss Whedon again.)

Well, Maxie Zeus formulated his theory for BTAS alone, and I was using it because I thought it had relevance to Shayera. And it's not like Whedon invented the concept of Redemption.

[Fone Bone]

Oh, okay. The point there is that the Ventriloquist personality was never a villain, but Scarface is. In order for Wesker to reform, he would have to elimate the Scarface personality, which is proving harder than anyone thought, or the Scarface personality itself would have to reform. But I think Wesker is stuck as a villain for some time now.


Well, Maxie Zeus formulated his theory for BTAS alone, and I was using it because I thought it had relevance to Shayera. And it's not like Whedon invented the concept of Redemption.Yes, but he was certainly an influence on JL and JLU. Those three geeks raising Grundy from the dead was straight outta Buffy.

[paulie]

The point, restated, is that Hawkgirl is pre-destined to always betray and destroy the ones she loves. Always. And whenever she tries to defend and help the ones she loves, that ends in failure. I pondered if she was a villain in denial: the idea that she doesn't want to be a villain, she wants to be a hero, but because she is meant to be a villain by the forces that govern the universe, all her heroic aspirations are in vain.Hmmm, I like that, it's interesting...it's coming at the "what does a superhero do without her powers" theme from a different angle. It's not as overt as GL's "uh oh, ring doesn't work, what do I do?!"...instead it's "I HAVE and USE all these powers, but I still keep screwing up". It's a real bummer if that's all there is in the cards for HG. But HG also has many non-screw-ups to her credit, so I don't think pre-destination, or natural law, or whatever, is in play here...

[Silverbolt]

Hawkgirl did nothing wrong. The situation that she was placed in was completely no win, and yet she still managed to find a way to consider it a win on her terms. Without her the league and everyone on the planet would be dead. If anything she's probably the leagues greatest ally because of those actions even if a few of the character members are to egotistical to see it.

I still say that what WW did in Paradise Lost was a lot worse then what Hawkgirl did in Starcrossed.

Both acted in secret against the league

Hawkgirl doing espionage, WW agreeing to do a villians bidding, and one that really probably couldn't be trusted. The question to me is would Fate have been able to fix the problem with her people had he known.

Hawkgirl balked when she heard the true plans that would destroy the planet, WW was more then willing to continue on with a plan that if successful could plung the planet into something that could have actually been worse then destruction.

So basically Hawkgirl was willing to let millions of her people die to save the Earth, which very likely would include members of her family, or at least many that she was friends with, where WW was pretty much willing to screw the planet just on the off chance that the villian was being honest, and really how many honest villians are there.

I believe that most of the league would take her side, I also believe that alot of the citizens would as well, with really only racist idiots that just see the wings really truely against her after the true story of her actions was released.

So that basically leaves just two who had major problems with her that would cause future problems with her in the league.

Wonder Woman, a extreme bigot who has the opinion of its ok if I do it, but if you try it its hideiously wrong and treason against the league (more likely it was treason against her people since I'm sure she still puts them above those of mans world even though her people banished her...which is fine, but its pretty much what she's accussing Hawkgirl of doing as well)

And Batman, I think he's just ticked that someone managed to out manuever him and do something that he didn't really expect...and also that someone outside of the people that he trusted knew his identity without him telling or without them using their powers to do it.

And then theres Superman...sorry ever since the X-mas episode I've thought of him as a idiot, Nice that he believes in redemption and all that, but it still shows that he felt that Hawkgirl did something horribly wrong.

I'm certain that he would do the same if a group of kryptonians were to come to Earth to "protect" the planet. Give the weaknesses of the protectors and their defenses just to see if they were at risk from those that would attack the planet.

Shayera is a very stubborn character, one that will not really admit that she was wrong in her actions, but she's also very kind and caring and when people who she thought were her friends turn on her after her actions just saved their planet and lives that has to be hard.

Its not what she's done that has caused her to really search her soul, its that her friends turned on her without really giving her much of a chance to defend herself. And that would be crushing for most anyone.

And since Aquaman was on her side, really how could the league have much to stand on. I mean he'd kill anyone if he thought that they betrayed Atlantis especially if their actions would have lead to it being competely and utterly destoryed.

[Wizard]

Back to the predestination angle: I would have to say no, if only because I've never seen the DCAU as Calvinistic. I've never even seen B:TAS as Calvinistic, although I can understand perfectly why the argument can be made.

Personal choice is important. Shayera chose to spy on the League, and she chose to betray her people when she found out what is really going on. It is only choice that keeps Batman from killing people or carrying a gun. Okay, okay- he chooses not to carry a gun at this point in his life but does later on; however, when he realizes what that makes him, he chooses to put Batman aside forever- or so he thinks at the time. Anyway...

For those that mention the various crazies we have all met, I would ask this question: does their insanity rob them of their ability to choose? I would argue yes. It's not necessarily that they don't want anything better for themselves, but that they can't have it. Ivy's desires were healthy, but because of her insanity she went about acheiving them in ways that directly countermanded her stated goal. Two-Face wanted to become Harvey Dent again, but the evil persona sabotaged him at every turn. I remember reading about a DCAU Batman comic book that featured the Scarecrow being 'cured' and returning to teaching. He returned to the Scarecrow persona, but only to protect a student that was being harassed (by her boyfriend, or was it a would-be boyfriend?). At the end, Batman said something along the lines of though what Scarecrow did was wrong, but he did it for the right reason, so there's still hope for him.

How does this apply to Shayera Hol? As long as she is sane and continues to choose to be a hero, she is one.

[maxnugget]

Interesting topic.

First things first. While it's certainly true that telling your homeworld that Superman is allergic to Kryptonite isn't exactly giving away a big secret, giving away the access code to the watchtower is a pretty blatant betrayal, and the fact that the League's original watchtower wasn't very effective doesn't diminish the severity of the betrayal.

Is it fair to say that just because she keeps screwing up and costing people their lives and trust, that she's a "villain"? To me this seems an oversimplification. What's great about Hawkgirl is that she has to deal with what the other 99% of heroes (inexplicably) do not: she doesn't always make the right choices as a hero. In most DCAU episodes, the heroes either make the right choices, or they make the wrong choices, realize what they should have done, and are able to eventually make the right choice without any significant consequences to the wrong choices they made. This is, of course, boring from a continuity standpoint. Let's look at some classic "bad choices" made by characters:

1. Harvey Dent turns down his friend Bruce's plea to help him and takes a dangerous approach by dealing directly with Rupert Thorne. Dramatic long-term consequences ensue.

2. In a rare turn, Batman FAILS, both short-term and long-term, at saving Dent. He makes what were ultimately the wrong set of choices to save him from the explosion that scars his face, and, unlike most episodes, he never has the chance to make the right choices, and his failure has permanent consequence. Same deal with his continued attempts to reform Dent throughout the series. Ultimately, he is unable to undo what, in part, arose from his failure to make the right choices.. Part of the tragedy is, of course, that there's no way he could have known what was going to happen to Harvey before it happened. But a more experienced Batman may have taken less chances, sidelined, by force if necessary, Dent earlier, before he had a chance to get in Thorne's car, or would have monitored Thorne more carefully and known Thorne was planning to blackmail Harvey.

3. Dick Grayson fails to save his parents. Unlike Bruce, who really couldn't do much of anything to prevent his parents' murder, Dick had a clear opportunity to save his parents. He made the decision not to trust his gut and raise the red flag. He never has the opportunity to recover from that decision.

4. Mask of the Phantasm: Bruce fails to save Andrea. He was training to become the Batman at the time when he was courting Andrea, BEFORE she skipped town. If he'd pushed harder with his training and reached a competent level sooner, he might have been able to help her and her father. Further, there's the ever-lingering question of whether he could have "saved" her when she returned to Gotham to seek vengeance on Joker and the others. Alfred tries to console him by painting her as a lost cause, someone who was lost before she came into Gotham, but somewhere Bruce must feel he could have done something differently.

5. Apokolips, Now!: A wiser Superman might have had the foresight to realize that it's a dangerous game letting Dan Turpin, a human, have any part in the battle that ensued, not just against the parademons and others, but earlier on, when they were fighting thsoe flying machines that were themselves lethally dangerous and undefeatable for anyone other than Superman and Orion. Had Superman kept Turpin "in his league" instead of (perhaps irresponsibly) allowing him to wander out of it, Turpin might still be with us today. (as Turpin said, "I play a pretty good game, but not in this league")

Etc, etc. Point being, I'm not sure I'd even call Hawkgirl a "complex" character. It's more just a matter of her being one of the few characters in the DCAU who has made mistakes that were irreversible and has had to deal with the fallout from them.

As for "villains," in the real world there are no villains. One man's villain is another man's hero. Not all heroes are selfless, and not all villains are selfish. And the DCAU shows are often very good at trying not to paint heroes and villains so one-dimensionally. Vandal Savage was a terrible villain who caused the deaths of countless innocents, but ultimately not only regretted his actions and sought redemption, but also saved the world when no one else could (by sending Superman back in time). So is he an infamous villain responsible for many, many deaths, or the savior of the world? And what about Luthor? Even if he is still insincere, selfish, or manipulative, the cold, hard fact is that he's now saved the world TWICE in JL/U.

Hawkgirl definitely committed Treason against her homeworld of Thanagar, but that's a tricky situation.

I guess I'm more just looking at things than I am making any points (let alone new ones), but oh well. :p

[OmegaPaladin]

While my folks are Reformed (Calvinist), I'm a avowed Arminian (God has absolute foreknowledge, so that he doesn't need predestination.)

Wesker redeemed himself, by a supreme effort of will. The villain in "It's never too late..." finally redeemed himself. Most villains may someday redeem themselves, but most don't want to do so. Catwoman loves crime, the Joker is a sadist, Harly is infatuated with said sadist (she healed after he was dead), Ivy doesn't want to relinquish her control, the Riddler must defeat Batman, Bane is a sadist, Scarecrow is obsessed with fear, etc.

The Mad Hatter is a tough case. I don't known what will happen to him.