Joker design/animation in JL [Archive]

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Brainiac

01-03-2005, 03:10 PM

So maybe I'm being a bit nitpicky (okay, really nitpicky), but after looking at the newly-posted "Injustice for All" screengrabs of the Joker and comparing them to his appearance in "Wild Cards"...didn't he look just a bit off-model in "Wild Cards?"

His forehead seems to have grown substantially and he just wasn't animated as dynamically it seems...don't get me wrong, I love the episode: I just found his model to be a bit awkwardly animated.

And for comparison, the first is "Injustice" Joker and the bottom is the other:
http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/jl/bios/villains/joker/05.jpg

http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/justiceleague/episodes/WildCard/Part1/02.jpg

-Brainiac

EJill34

01-03-2005, 03:16 PM

Chalk it up to "Injustice For All" being animated by Koko and "Wild Cards" being animated by Dong Woo. Different animation studios=different artists, so you get two different styles.

Terminatah

01-03-2005, 03:16 PM

Killtacular

01-03-2005, 03:40 PM

Chalk it up to "Injustice For All" being animated by Koko and "Wild Cards" being animated by Dong Woo. Different animation studios=different artists, so you get two different styles.
Maybe if the layouts are done there, but otherwise you should blame whoever boarded and laid out the episode at WBA. The animation studio merely works with what they're given.

DisneyBoy

01-03-2005, 03:49 PM

Agreed. Something tells me that b.t. himself might have boarded the sequence from which you took the first screengrab from. If not that particular scene, then certainly the last Batman/Joker sequence (the "You're dispicable" gun scene).

screw on head

01-03-2005, 04:38 PM

For the curious, here's the storyboard credits for both episodes:

Injustice for All: Aluir Amancio, Ricardo Morales, Butch Lukic, Bob Smith, James Tucker

Wild Cards: Brett Blevins, Joaquim Dos Santos, Gary Graham, Ricardo Morales, Bob Smith, Bruce Timm, Adam Van Wick.

I'd chalk up the different looks to a combo of different animation studios translating different storyboards. I wouldn't swear by the credits, but layout seems to be creditted to overseas animators, which would probably further skew the look of each shot -- I'm just speculating, I've no idea who, how and if anyone on the timm and crew handles such stuff or if layout's overseas work too, (I'd venture to guess it's the latter of the two myself.)

Agreed. Something tells me that b.t. himself might have boarded the sequence from which you took the first screengrab from. If not that particular scene, then certainly the last Batman/Joker sequence (the "You're dispicable" gun scene).I really liked Jokers expressions in that scene, they were very manic and over the top, whoever boarded that seemed to have a ball with it, but, for my money, it didn't look like a b.t. boarded scene to me, and that's not just because he's not in the credits, I'm sure he's pinch hitted some storyboards but wasn't creditted for them in certain episodes.

I don't think that last scene is Bob Smith either, judging from the way I've seen him drawn this version of Joker on the Gotham Adventures covers as well as those "Joker sitting in the film booth" shots in ROTJ, which I'm going to wager and say that Mr. Smith boarded that whole narration scene, not all too sure of course. Anyhoo, I think that little scene between Batman and Joker in IFA was boarded by Butch Lukic, who I'm guessing boarded the scene that leads into it of Luthor blasting Superman with "kryptonite" beams too.

DisneyBoy

01-03-2005, 04:53 PM

John6777

01-03-2005, 05:43 PM

Maybe if the layouts are done there, but otherwise you should blame whoever boarded and laid out the episode at WBA. The animation studio merely works with what they're given.
I don't agree with that at all. If D.R. Movie and Koko did the same episode. I am 100% positive you would see a huge difference in animation styles and action. Just like comparing TMS to Koko. They can storyboard it looking like crap but TMS always made it look great.

Revelator

01-03-2005, 05:50 PM

In any case, it's safe to say that while Joker's latest design worked beautifully in ROTJ, it's worked a little less well in Justice League and Static Shock, which is unfortunate, because Joker looked his all-time best in ROTJ, and I'd assumed he'd continue looking that way. But he's been rendered a bit sloppily ever since.

Obsidian Age

01-03-2005, 07:38 PM

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. Even when Wild Cards first aired I noticed that he was off a bit. Liked Injustice for All Joker much better then this. (Also Jokers head was smaller which looked very weird)

Harley Quinn

01-03-2005, 08:37 PM

My Puddin' looks a bit like a whiny toddler in the second picture... :rolleyes: *swoons anyhow*

Fone Bone

01-03-2005, 08:43 PM

The red lips were a little less prevalent in Wild Cards too. (Although that may just be because I haven't seen it on DVD.)

DerekPowers

01-03-2005, 10:35 PM

My guess is Aluir did the gun scene with Mistah J.

ALUIR ROCKS!!!

*high fives*

Glad to see you're still around man. Love your work. Now if only you'd visit us here at the boards...

*nudges b.t. in the hopes that he'll let some of his co-workers leave their desks for a few minutes*

at the risk of sounding like an idiot, who is "Aluir"?

anyway, the joker gun scene was definately a high point in that episode. very cool. i'd say it wasnt just good storyboards that contributed to that, BUT ALSO whoever actually animated that scene definately had a lot of fun w/ the acting and the stretch and squash, and just probably wanted it to be their moment to shine. they probably put extra time into it or animated it when they were having a really good day. its interesting that it sticks out from the rest of the episode.

I WANT MORE JOKER!!

peace. :)

DisneyBoy

01-04-2005, 03:26 PM

Aluir Amancio was the spectacular penciller who worked for several years on the Superman Adventures comic series after the departure of Rick Burchett. Some readers were disappointed that his style of drawing gradually veered further away from the look of the series, and more into Kirby territory, but I loved every panel of it. He drew two issues of Justice League Adventures, but sadly neither of them looked as exceptional as his earlier work. As screw on head pointed out, he worked on the storyboards for Injustice For All.

b.t. even said once that his work on SA was "ballsy".

There ya go.

Fone Bone

01-04-2005, 03:34 PM

Dusty

01-04-2005, 05:00 PM

Are you kidding me? i think he is one of the worst artist,

D.

bat313

01-04-2005, 05:14 PM

i agree, its sad that Joker looked terrible in his last DCU appearance :sad: Maybe we will get lucky and he'll show up down the road, but the animaion on him in the ep was very shotty.

fatboy

01-04-2005, 11:02 PM

Maybe if the layouts are done there, but otherwise you should blame whoever boarded and laid out the episode at WBA. The animation studio merely works with what they're given.

It isn't the board artist fault. Even if it was on model on the board, it dosn't mean that its going to look how it is on the board. Its not really the storyboard artist job to put everything on model anyway, their job is tell the story and direct action.

I've actually seen really loose boards get back better animation back than what you might get from very tight boards. Not always, it really depends on a lot of factors really....

b.t.

01-06-2005, 11:22 AM

It isn't the board artist fault. Even if it was on model on the board, it dosn't mean that its going to look how it is on the board. Its not really the storyboard artist job to put everything on model anyway, their job is tell the story and direct action.

I've actually seen really loose boards get back better animation back than what you might get from very tight boards. Not always, it really depends on a lot of factors really....

no no NO, don't you see, anytime there is something less than perfect in JL or JLU, it's always MY fault, or the fault of my crappy storyboard guys (why HAVEN'T i fired the lot of them, anyway?)....just because it's the animator's responsibility to make sure the characters are always on-model, even when the storyboard drawing isn't, doesn't mean they should ever be held accountable...

i personally apologize to everyone here that, by its very nature, hand-drawn animation can never be 100% consistent....then again, life itself is fluid (i'm sure that's my fault, too)....we can all take some small measure of comfort in knowing that, in this maddeningly inconsistent, uncertain world, we can always rely on matt wilson to take a cheap pot-shot at me or my crew....

Spectre

01-06-2005, 11:30 AM

Are you being bitter there, Mr. Timm? I can't tell. :shrug:

Fone Bone

01-06-2005, 11:31 AM

no no NO, don't you see, anytime there is something less than perfect in JL or JLU, it's always MY fault, or the fault of my crappy storyboard guys (why HAVEN'T i fired the lot of them, anyway?)....just because it's the animator's responsibility to make sure the characters are always on-model, even when the storyboard drawing isn't, doesn't mean they should ever be held accountable...

i personally apologize to everyone here that, by its very nature, hand-drawn animation can never be 100% consistent....then again, life itself is fluid (i'm sure that's my fault, too)....we can all take some small measure of comfort in knowing that, in this maddeningly inconsistent, uncertain world, we can always rely on matt wilson to take a cheap pot-shot at me or my crew....I've always wondered why that was. I think Justice League and Justice League Unlimited are pretty good. But then again I'm a layman and not a professional critic like Matt.;)

DerekPowers

01-06-2005, 02:02 PM

Are you being bitter there, Mr. Timm? I can't tell. :shrug:

I think he's being sarcastic, except for the matt wilson shot :evil: :D .

Hey, he takes a lot of punches on these boards (i know i can be really harsh and blunt on JLU at times, maybe even too much so :shrug: ), so I think it's only fair he gives a few shots back.

peace.

Fone Bone

01-06-2005, 04:33 PM

Are you being bitter there, Mr. Timm? I can't tell. :shrug:He's being snarky. With all the personal crap hurled at him on this board you can't blame him for getting pissed occasionally.

Oh, and b.t., regarding your last post:Oh, snap!:D

fatboy

01-06-2005, 05:18 PM

no no NO, don't you see, anytime there is something less than perfect in JL or JLU, it's always MY fault, or the fault of my crappy storyboard guys (why HAVEN'T i fired the lot of them, anyway?)....just because it's the animator's responsibility to make sure the characters are always on-model, even when the storyboard drawing isn't, doesn't mean they should ever be held accountable...

i personally apologize to everyone here that, by its very nature, hand-drawn animation can never be 100% consistent....then again, life itself is fluid (i'm sure that's my fault, too)....we can all take some small measure of comfort in knowing that, in this maddeningly inconsistent, uncertain world, we can always rely on matt wilson to take a cheap pot-shot at me or my crew....

I stand corrected. I guess everyone I was working with has been doing it wrong all these years. ;)

Terminatah

01-06-2005, 05:34 PM

He's being snarky. With all the personal crap hurled at him on this board you can't blame him for getting pissed occasionally.

Oh, and b.t., regarding your last post:Oh, snap!:D I think I liked this post better the first time when it was the one right above it. ;)

Seriously though, I think this was one of the worst Joker appearances, my favorite being Joker's Favor.

-Terminatah

Fone Bone

01-06-2005, 05:36 PM

I think I liked this post better the first time when it was the one right above it. ;)

Seriously though, I think this was one of the worst Joker appearances, my favorite being Joker's Favor.

-TerminatahFone Bone has been Snapped!:p

DerekPowers

01-06-2005, 05:43 PM

Seriously though, I think this was one of the worst Joker appearances

-Terminatah

Agreed. I really didnt care for this episode. Too bad it's presumably his last appearence in the DCAU.

peace.

Crow

01-07-2005, 06:56 AM

I always thought there was something iffy about the way he looked, it's weird that it's "aaaaah so that's it - his receding hairline was what it was!' but no worries.

And Matt just needs a cuddle.

John6777

01-07-2005, 12:42 PM

no no NO, don't you see, anytime there is something less than perfect in JL or JLU, it's always MY fault, or the fault of my crappy storyboard guys (why HAVEN'T i fired the lot of them, anyway?)....just because it's the animator's responsibility to make sure the characters are always on-model, even when the storyboard drawing isn't, doesn't mean they should ever be held accountable...

i personally apologize to everyone here that, by its very nature, hand-drawn animation can never be 100% consistent....then again, life itself is fluid (i'm sure that's my fault, too)....we can all take some small measure of comfort in knowing that, in this maddeningly inconsistent, uncertain world, we can always rely on matt wilson to take a cheap pot-shot at me or my crew....
Don't worry Bruce, I am one of the few who do blame the Animation studio because obviously some episodes are animated better then others and if the storyboards are all done by the same team it would make no sense that it would be the storyboard artist's fault that the overall outcome looked horrible because then all episodes would look bad.

Killtacular

03-08-2005, 03:46 PM

I wanted to bump this thread if only to apologize to mr. B.T., you can close it afterwards if you like. I just noticed this post in a search and it bothered me. There seems to be this rising antagonism between us and I really don't want our differences to make us enemies or something. I don't really carry grudges (strange I know! :D) and I don't want others to carry grudges against me so it's in my best interest to resolve any irritance someone has over something I've done. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's no shortage of that at many corners of the web, but just let me nurse one bruise at a time.

To talk specifically about what you're not a fan of me doing right now, I don't mean to take "pot-shots" at your crew. I was merely trying to recant what I know is the case for hundreds of other cartoons... an animation studio works with what they're given and sometimes they can polish and sometimes they can't. You say that I don't think an animation studio should be held accountable. Well, I DO think that some should, when an animation studio is consistently off the mark in every series they are handed. Take Wang Film for example. I have no pity for them. They use archaic practices like redrawing the entire body for every motion which results in swampy lumpiness. Compare an episode of Static Shock done at Koko or Dongwoo with an episode done at Wang Film and the differences are remarkable, if only for this fact alone.

At the same time I don't think animation studios are the only ones that should be held accountable. Now I feel bad for picking on the storyboarders, which is essentially the only thing I've been doing since JLU's started, when you and other directors are just as involved in the boarding process as they are, so when I criticize them, it's like I'm criticizing the whole staff. I'm sorry for that. At the same time, I'm not known to be a back-patter and I can apologize for saying harsh words but I can't apologize for not seeing eye to eye-- for having a different opinion than other posters here. But yes I apologize for being so blunt about the production process, making it seem like I only felt your crew was misstepping instead of hitting the target, and giving you the short end of the 'shtick' to say the least.

Ultimately I feel like I shoot myself in the foot every time I post on this board. Mostly because I chime in usually when something really bugged me, rather than when something really excited me. Did you know there's a lot of JLU that I like? I probably did a poor job of making that known. For the record, and you can quote me on this, I enjoyed For the Man Who Has Everything, The Return, Wake the Dead, the sheer comic absurdity of Once and Future Thing (I may have panned it initially but then upon seeing the whole thing, realize the ludicriousness works in its favor), Cat and the Canary (who boarded that one? That one was freaking insane), and Doomsday Sanction. Episodes I don't mind are Initiation, Dark Heart and the Power Girl story. They do nothing for me but if they were on I wouldn't NOT watch them. So I favor 10 of the 15 episodes that have aired. That's a pretty big percentage for a guy like me who usually does not find cartoons to have that big a success rate.

I think JLU is so improved over the original Justice League. Maybe I should be posting my positive thoughts more often instead of only chiming in on things I don't approve of. I think this is your main beef with me, correct? Look, I'll try to be more positively vocal more often. Just as season 1 was an improvement over JL, I think season 2 of JLU so far has been an improvement over season 1 of JLU. This show, along with Teen Titans, is starting to make the DC animated world so much more appealing to me again. So don't think that I'm your #1 anti-supporter. That's not how it is, not anymore. Feel free to smack me if I get out of line, I'll try not to put my foot in my mouth.

I guess you can close this thread now, unless BT wants to say something, or punch me in the gut, or slap me silly, or throw me into a woodchipper, or paint a mustache on my face or put me on a dunk tank and buy thousands of baseballs to dunk me with or bury me neck deep in the sand or excommunicate me from the church or fight me in a clock tower or tie my foot to an anchor and throw me overboard or shoot paintballs at me or have a WW2 dogfight or tie me to train tracks or throw me in a tim burton-esque vat of acid or staple my lips shut or make me play russian roulette or hypnotize me to do his bidding or tell santa i've been bad or place a kick me sign on my back or create a baby etrigan spin off and force me to work on it or hold my parents captive for ransom or do a parody of brewsters millions only he gets all the money and holds it in front of me and i cry for 90 minutes or bury me in the sand AND paint a mustache on my face or chase me off a cliff or beat me in backgammon or have wolves savagely tear me apart or maybe we could just have a picnic or something.

Ultra Mike

03-08-2005, 05:56 PM

Just want to say one thing to that

Episodes I don't mind are Initiation, Dark Heart and the Power Girl story.
The Power Girl story was "Fearful Symmetry" (aka Galatea). Just to tell you.

Revelator

03-08-2005, 07:07 PM

I wanted to bump this thread...I think many here can agree that your comments on the pluses and minuses of a given episode's animation are frequently perceptive and incisive, and borne of evident experience. But you're occasionally dogmatic in some areas...
Clive James once noted that when he gave a show or book a really devastating pan, he made sure to first say what he liked about the show/book and what it had gotten right before he proceded to rip out its entrails. I'm sure your praise could be as provocative and unique as your blame and would be well received.
All in all, I'm glad to see that JLU has graduated to your "like" list.
I'd rather see a baby Etrigan spinoff than Krypto btw...