Batman: Dark Knight Adventures - Holiday Special #1 Talkback (Spoilers)

[James]

World's Finest Presents

BATMAN: DARK KNIGHT ADVENTURES
Holdiay Special #1


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"Lest Christmas Wayne"
Story and Linework - JAMES MCLEAN
Colours and Lettering - KRISTIAN TRIGWELL

"...and Never Brought to Mind"
Story, Colours and Lettering - IAN MOORE
Linework - JAMES MCLEAN
Cover artwork - V MOORE

Two holiday stories for the festive season! Rhyme and verse sing out a belated Christmas greetings from Gotham..
but while others recover from the dark adventures of the Monster within, another is plotting a plan so foul.....

An annual tradition goes sour for one of Gotham's finest.
Does the New Year bring hope for the future or fear of a world devoid of heroes and justice?






Batman: The Dark Knight Adventures
Assistant Editor: James Mclean
Editor & Founder: Ian Moore
dka@toonzone.net

[James]

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What about the NEXT ISSUE of DKA? (http://showthread.php?t=127755&highlight=dka)



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Batman: Dark Knight Adventures #13 out end of January!



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TOMORROW (12/31) - MAJOR 2005 ANNOUNCEMENT! CAN'T MISS IT!


TALKBACK!

WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THE HOLIDAY SPECIAL?

GIVE US YOUR THOUGHTS!

[Azbatz]

This one's the shortest one yet but everything is outstanding! Nice follow up to one of the most memorable episodes of The New Batman Adventures "Holiday Knights" Scarecrow and the Mad Hatter worked out nicely as cameo villains. I bet Batman spent Christmas hunting Jonathan Crane. Poor Mad Hatter he still desires Alice. Now that The Monster Within is complete, I hope this was the farewell to both the moster and Fitzgerald.

[James]

This one's the shortest one yet but everything is outstanding! Nice follow up to one of the most memorable episodes of The New Batman Adventures "Holiday Knights" Scarecrow and the Mad Hatter worked out nicely as cameo villains. I bet Batman spent Christmas hunting Jonathan Crane. Poor Mad Hatter he still desires Alice. Now that The Monster Within is complete, I hope this was the farewell to both the moster and Fitzgerald.
It was 3 pages shorter than intended, but it meant the issue remained specifically holiday themed. After a massive NW spectacular this month, this was a merry holiday nod and a little tie up of past events.

A few little hints for the future in there if you look too...

And no plans for Fitzy or the Monster to reappear..

[Phantasm]

Barbara's on a wheelchair?!!!!!!:eek:
Poor Bruce!And it's ALL his fault!!!She seems to be handling it well though...and poor Commish Gordon...He deserves better... oh, he really does...:crying:
This was just a heartbreaking issue...And Batman didn't come!!Gordon must have been immensly disapointed...it was the last 'normal', stable thing in his life he was counting on...but Barb joins him instead.aaawwww!!!I admire her, I really do.The best thing that ever happened to Barb was to be confined to a wheelchair.It brought out the best in her in the comics and apparently in the DKA universe also.aaawww I really love the Gordons...and Batman becomes the witness to yet another heartwarming scene...:)

This was simply put, a BEAUTIFUL issue.Very poignant and thoughtful in what it wanted to convey. I loved the artwork as it meshed beautifully with the story.

Another exceptional addition to the Bat-world.A Mesmerizing read!

[jpb6891]

I thought this was going to be three stories.

[TimTwoFace]

Lookin' snazzy, guys. The colouring and shading really stood out in this issue - it was very dark but vibrant at the same time - just the way I like it. :)

The stories were all nice tie-ups to the previous year's events, too.

Good work! :)

-Tim

[James]

I thought this was going to be three stories.
If I may speak for Ian on this (and I'm sure he'll clarify anything I missed here) here were a few problems hitting the deadline with the respective artist on the third story.

In the end, deadlines are vital for online comics that quanity of pages - more so for a seasonal one. Ian made a call that it was more important to hit this deadline that get the artist to rush the job, I agree with that decision.

I think in the end, while short, there is actually quite a lot this issue covers dealing with the past, present and future of DKA.

[Stu]

You've already explained the shortness of the issue, so we'll move on.

This one was pretty weak compared to the regular issues we've recieved. 3 issues is bound to take it's toll, but there was a lot here which felt odd. I'm sure The Scarecrow stuff will be explained eventually, but that's more of a length issue than a story one.

The 2nd story simply seemed a little out of character. I know what Batman's been through, but I find it very hard to believe he wouldn't go see Jim. I know he doesn't want sidekicks anymore, but to cut of all communication with Jim, who had nothing to do with Bat Beast seems a little excessive.

Artisitically, since I know you love to read them Jimmy, there's very few. The small ones, such as Batman's cape having blue highlights, and the pointy shoulder pads. I'm not sure if you've changed the model or not (which would be kinda cool, possibly his JL design?) but the main distractions were the Nightwing shots. They seemed off, especially the hair. Superman was also a little dissapointing, but Supergirl looked better than last month.

Are we soon to see Oracle? On a personal note, I hope not. The comics version is pretty boring, and I personally like Batman doing Detetive work, instead of Barb looking every single fraction of information up on a big ass PC. But that's just me ;)

Not your best, but still not bad. :)

[Phantasm]

The 2nd story simply seemed a little out of character. I know what Batman's been through, but I find it very hard to believe he wouldn't go see Jim.

hhmm...now that you bring it up it DOES seem odd that Batman wouldn't show up. I don't think Batman is the kind to let people down.Especially Jim.But I guess he'd avoid any contact with Jim because of the guilt in him for doing what he did with Barb...Maybe he thought he couldn't face Jim...:shrug:

[James]

This one was pretty weak compared to the regular issues we've recieved. 3 issues is bound to take it's toll, but there was a lot here which felt odd. I'm sure The Scarecrow stuff will be explained eventually, but that's more of a length issue than a story one.
Well personally I liked the simplicity of this issue. Short and sweet, but fair enough. Yes The Scarecrow thing will play an important piece later on.



The 2nd story simply seemed a little out of character. I know what Batman's been through, but I find it very hard to believe he wouldn't go see Jim.
Considering in #12 his Batman persona took control, he no longer holds any active personal ties. He recognized through Martha that keeping close ties just caused pain and broke his vow (he was endangering innocents through involvement) so as he has removed Bruce Wayne from his persona, he's removed superfluous contact. It all makes perfect sense - I suggest having a reread of #12 - I think it will make Batman's actions VERY logical.



I know he doesn't want sidekicks anymore, but to cut of all communication with Jim, who had nothing to do with Bat Beast seems a little excessive.

Again, it's endangering innocents through involvement. Even Jim has suffered. Take the opening scene of Mad Love... how much would the Joker have targeted Gordon if there was no tie to the Batman. Batman doesn't need police resources, it's Bruce's need for companionship which keeps their friendship. He could get all the info Jim gives him by other means if need be.
Artisitically, since I know you love to read them Jimmy, there's very few.


The small ones, such as Batman's cape having blue highlights, and the pointy shoulder pads. I'm not sure if you've changed the model or not (which would be kinda cool, possibly his JL design?) but the main distractions were the Nightwing shots. They seemed off, especially the hair. Superman was also a little dissapointing, but Supergirl looked better than last month.
Hmm, as for Batman, I like to pick what's necessary from model and then do my own approach. I'm an artist not a Timm Tracer dammit! :D Timm Tracer, sounds like a pal of Static Shock.. :p

Yes, we are moving to a JL costume. Why? Reread the story and Batfans may see a clue as to why...

As for NW, he's based on MY model for NW which evolved throughout DKA. As he's got older, he's got a little thicker. And as for the hair, he's always had a spikey haircut in DKA...



Are we soon to see Oracle? On a personal note, I hope not.
We have never had any intention of doing Oracle so don't worry. I utterly disagree with your comments on Oracle from the comics. For me she is one of the most deep and real characters they've done. She's wonderful, but I have no interest in emulating that tale. Barb in TNBA is a very different character to the comics and we'll be follow the story from her angle, not the traditional one. How she copes with being wheelchair bound will be utterly different to the comics - since she is a different character.

Always good to get some opposing feedback Stu. :)


hhmm...now that you bring it up it DOES seem odd that Batman wouldn't show up. I don't think Batman is the kind to let people down.Especially Jim.But I guess he'd avoid any contact with Jim because of the guilt in him for doing what he did with Barb...Maybe he thought he couldn't face Jim...:shrug:
Maybe there is a bit of that. Afterall, as I said, Batman's destruction of the Bruce Wayne part of his persona doesn't make him evil or non caring - Batman by definition cares, but he does it from the shadows. Personal friendships don't come into his crusade. That was the point Martha explained in issue 12.

That's my take anyhow. On Ian's story, we chatted about it a bit (I think I sneaked Batman in on the pencils which was VERY naughty) so his take maybe different. In the end you get out what you personally like, regardless of mine of Ian's opinion. The story stands on it's own feet.

If you reread DKA up to this point you'll see everything makes sense. We have evolved the characters to a point which maybe doesn't flow with how they were in TNBA, they've changed slightly since then. One may not like or agree with the changes, but I remain careful that they ARE in character with DKA. :)

[Azbatz]

People have to come to understand that Jim Gordon is a lot older than he was in the Fox Batman series and yeah Mad Love (The official Batman episode) shows he can no longer keep up with Batman. He’s become a damsel in distress but does he know it yet? So now that I’ve reread the Holiday Special I know why it ended with Barbara replacing Batman. So this will be the Justice League Batman, can’t wait to see more! Hope Justice League will be explored this year on how it affects Gotham City’s Batman.

[Kylewayne]

I love the COVER ART! Awsome job BIC! SJJ, you did a fantastic job on the art and inking, the stories were nice and cute. They can actually pass as little Batman episodes on TV! =D Lovely job everyone and have a Happy New Year!

[James]

So this will be the Justice League Batman, can’t wait to see more! Hope Justice League will be explored this year on how it affects Gotham City’s Batman.
#13 will largely delve into the issue of Gotham city, JL and Batman. Also has some cameos... watch this space.

[The Flash]

I thought this was going to be three stories.

Would you rather be missing one story or have the Thrid December Issue released in mid-January? ;) Hmmm... If I cut the story, I'm a bad guy. If I leave the story and miss the deadline, I'm a bad guy. Agh!! :)



This was just a heartbreaking issue...And Batman didn't come!!Gordon must have been immensly disapointed...it was the last 'normal', stable thing in his life he was counting on...but Barb joins him instead.aaawwww!!!I admire her, I really do.

Exactly. You got it! My first draft of that story, actually ended with Jim waiting all night... without Batman coming. The bartender left him the key, and Jim sat there all night waiting and praying that Batman was okay. It was SJJ that had the idea to add Babs. We owe him a thank-you - my first draft was really, really, really cold. I was worried it would've been much too depressing, and I know it would have been.


If I may speak for Ian on this (and I'm sure he'll clarify anything I missed here) here were a few problems hitting the deadline with the respective artist on the third story.

In that artist's defrense, he was getting into a messy situation anyways. It was probably doomed from the start. I think it reads better being all Holiday Stories, myself. But that's just me. :)


The 2nd story simply seemed a little out of character. I know what Batman's been through, but I find it very hard to believe he wouldn't go see Jim. I know he doesn't want sidekicks anymore, but to cut of all communication with Jim, who had nothing to do with Bat Beast seems a little excessive.

I would suggest re-reading Issue #12. Batman literally pushed everybody away. This story is just illistrating the reality. Then keep in mind that DKA isn't TNBA Continued, it's bridging the gap towards Batman Beyond. We're going to see some big changes.


...but the main distractions were the Nightwing shots. They seemed off, especially the hair. Superman was also a little dissapointing, but Supergirl looked better than last month.

Mmmh, I think there was only one Nightwing shot. I'm gunna have to defend James here. It was a photograph of Nightwing, so the details didn't need filled in. I think it's missing a mouth? The main focus on that panel was Bullock. It was meant to look that way.


That's my take anyhow. On Ian's story, we chatted about it a bit (I think I sneaked Batman in on the pencils which was VERY naughty) so his take maybe different. In the end you get out what you personally like, regardless of mine of Ian's opinion. The story stands on it's own feet.

Nah, we had semi-agreed on having Batman there. That was before you sent in teh inks, I think. I wish we could've had that extra dialouge... :-X


If you reread DKA up to this point you'll see everything makes sense. We have evolved the characters to a point which maybe doesn't flow with how they were in TNBA, they've changed slightly since then. One may not like or agree with the changes, but I remain careful that they ARE in character with DKA. :)

Reread this quote, peoples!

[Storm]

Bic did a great job on the cover! Yay to Bic! It's beautiful. Overall this special issue was a very nice touch to an awesome year for DKA. I liked how the stories were short and sweet. It was very wise to give the readers a little breather and just a nice Christmas treat yet not neglecting the current storyline. Very wise. I tadly agree w/ Amazing Spidey. I don't want to see Barb as Oracle. Not because I think she's boring. IMO, Barb is one of the better and enjoyable characters in the current comic Bativerse. I just don't see this incarnation of Barbara Gordon becoming Oracle anytime soon. Babs has a lot of growing up to do and I think with the recent events in her life this will build on that maturity level she's been needing. Maturity in a good way. I think it's great that you guys are taking baby steps towards Barb's paralyzation and that you all are not diving into the typical storyline that would involve this particular storyline. Kudos to you all. Another fine issue guys. Can't wait to see the devlopments in future issues.

- Fray

[James]

Bic did a great job on the cover! Yay to Bic! It's beautiful. Overall this special issue was a very nice touch to an awesome year for DKA. I liked how the stories were short and sweet. It was very wise to give the readers a little breather and just a nice Christmas treat yet not neglecting the current storyline. Very wise. I tadly agree w/ Amazing Spidey. I don't want to see Barb as Oracle. Not because I think she's boring. IMO, Barb is one of the better and enjoyable characters in the current comic Bativerse. I just don't see this incarnation of Barbara Gordon becoming Oracle anytime soon. Babs has a lot of growing up to do and I think with the recent events in her life this will build on that maturity level she's been needing. Maturity in a good way. I think it's great that you guys are taking baby steps towards Barb's paralyzation and that you all are not diving into the typical storyline that would involve this particular storyline. Kudos to you all. Another fine issue guys. Can't wait to see the devlopments in future issues.

- Fray
Thanks Fray (I still can't used to calling you that) :p. Appreciated.

We thought long and hard on Barb. Myself, Maggie, Ian - even TZ user Barb Gordon - threw some input in. I think where we will take her will be very different from the comics. We will be dealing with some of that next month also I believe...

[The Flash]

Just a quick FYI - that major announcement I've been talking about is now public! Click here! (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?p=1564988)

[Stu]

Yes, we are moving to a JL costume. Why? Reread the story and Batfans may see a clue as to why...

Found it. I take it Batman will be joining the League soon? If he is, why would he care about the Wayne Foundations space station, especially considering he no longer cares about Wayne Enterprises?


We have never had any intention of doing Oracle so don't worry. I utterly disagree with your comments on Oracle from the comics. For me she is one of the most deep and real characters they've done. She's wonderful, but I have no interest in emulating that tale. Barb in TNBA is a very different character to the comics and we'll be follow the story from her angle, not the traditional one. How she copes with being wheelchair bound will be utterly different to the comics - since she is a different character.

Good. I never liked her. I didn't mind her as Batgirl, but was never a fan of her in the chair. Glad to see you're not going that way.

It'll be nice to see where all this is going. With MOTB, ROTJ, the JL/JLU and all of Batman Beyond considered to be in the same continuity, there's a lot of potential in between stories to tell. I dunno how you plan to explain the fact that Batman's still in his TNBA suit in MOTB and ROTJ flashbacks. Perhaps he switches back? :)


Always good to get some opposing feedback Stu. :)
I figured you'd rather have it than a "OMFG, DKA IS SOOOO COOL!!!!!1111 :anime: :D XD" I think if you are going to change things around, it should all be justified and logical rather than a "Hey, this will shock 'em!" :)

[The Flash]

Found it. I take it Batman will be joining the League soon? If he is, why would he care about the Wayne Foundations space station, especially considering he no longer cares about Wayne Enterprises?

You are correct on the first assumption. BUT I don't recall us ever saying that Batman doesn't care about Wayne Enterprises. Nor have we written anything in the books, to say that he doesn't "care." He cares. He gave WE to Luscious Fox, somebody he trusts. Plus, if he didn't care, he would not have been standing outside the Tavern when Babs went to see Jim. He cares for them, but he doesn't want to harm them - or put them in harm's way. Big difference. You'll see more of this reflected in future issues.



I figured you'd rather have it than a "OMFG, DKA IS SOOOO COOL!!!!!1111 :anime: :D XD" I think if you are going to change things around, it should all be justified and logical rather than a "Hey, this will shock 'em!" :)

True, we don't want our butts kissed. At the same time, we don't sit around and go, "Oh lets shock them." What do you mean by this? Are you saying that because Batman is trying to put his freinds out of harms way, that we are not being logical? When we shock the readers, there is merit for it. There is reason behind it. If we really wanted to shock you, we would create a wardrobe malfunction or something. :p

[James]

Found it. I take it Batman will be joining the League soon? If he is, why would he care about the Wayne Foundations space station, especially considering he no longer cares about Wayne Enterprises?

Ian said it best. Disassociation doesn't mean he doesn't care. The standpoint that Batman is going through at the moment is disassociation from the human elements. He still controls WE, he just doesn't have a hand in it's running anymore - that takes up too much valuable time he could be using in his crusade. Finally his "care" about the space station is more to do with being a clue to something bigger, rather him being interested from the perspective of WE owner. Secret Origins tells the rest.



Good. I never liked her. I didn't mind her as Batgirl, but was never a fan of her in the chair. Glad to see you're not going that way.
We never said that precisely. We said she wouldn't be a copy of the comics since Barb in the toons is a different character and will therefore offer a different response. She will have to deal with the issue of being crippled.



It'll be nice to see where all this is going. With MOTB, ROTJ, the JL/JLU and all of Batman Beyond considered to be in the same continuity, there's a lot of potential in between stories to tell. I dunno how you plan to explain the fact that Batman's still in his TNBA suit in MOTB and ROTJ flashbacks. Perhaps he switches back? :)
I don't think we'll take this on too specifically. The costume change in this issue is to help people identify periods. So yes, he will on the whole be sticking to the new costume. I feel the JL costume is more "bat orientated anyhow" so it seemed perfect for post Monster Within Bruce Wayne.

There are different model sheets, so I don't think there was ever a feeling that the costume design was continuitous. I would suggest just imagining he has two costumes and he prefers this one at the moment.. I certainly think that would fit in with his current mindstate.



I figured you'd rather have it than a "OMFG, DKA IS SOOOO COOL!!!!!1111 :anime: :D XD" I think if you are going to change things around, it should all be justified and logical rather than a "Hey, this will shock 'em!" :) That's a little unfair. This storyline has been in my head since around February last year. I've been slowly pushing the characters into this sitution since I took over. Reread the issues and you'll see the slow progression on ALL the characters. There is no shock value here. Certainly it's different to how they were in Mad Love, but everything has been consistent and intended to get to this point, and the arc continues next year.

Furthermore, if you watch season 1 of JL you'll noticed Batman is very much as he's painted in DKA currently. He is rather disassociated. Again, this was intended. I hope we can highlight this specifically more in the next issues, but with so much to go on, that aspect may get lost in the dialogue, however it is there in character and motivation. If you look - especially with everything I write - there is logic to ALL the characters and I think I can quite confidently say, there are no character motivations which haven't been intended and consistent within DKA and also how DKA relates in continuity to the Batman official canon.

[Azbatz]

Batman’s costume thing is impossible to get around because the people who made MOTB Batman forgot Batman’s costume changed or maybe MOTB takes place before JL/JLU? That makes it confusing. And than the ROTJ flashbacks… Yeah I guess Batman has two different costumes. One of the things I would like to see you guys explore is how Rupert Thorne got so desperate in MOTB. Seems like he had a strong gang until MOTB.

[The Flash]

The cartoons have always seemed to ignore costume changes. In TNBA, flashbacks which would've taken place during BTAS time, had TNBA style drawings. Mad Love was a BTAS comic book, before it was ever a TNBA episode. There is a big mess of costume changes for several characters (ie: Joker). Why burnden yourself? It's something I've learned to ignore. The real continuity is how the story are WRITTEN not drawn.

Just how I see it. :)

[James]

The cartoons have always seemed to ignore costume changes. In TNBA, flashbacks which would've taken place during BTAS time, had TNBA style drawings. Mad Love was a BTAS comic book, before it was ever a TNBA episode. There is a big mess of costume changes for several characters (ie: Joker). Why burnden yourself? It's something I've learned to ignore. The real continuity is how the story are WRITTEN not drawn.

Just how I see it. :)
Absolutely. As people can guess, I'm a canonhead myself. My mind justifies everything. While I utterly agree with Ian on this, as I said, in DKA my feeling is Bats goes for a darker costume (a more Bat looking one) because he associates his life now with Batman. However if it's pulled apart in fight, he may use his old one as back up until he's repaired his main one (which would explain SS eps, MOTB and ROTJ). Maybe. I don't know. I would like to throw a reason in, but we have SO little time to cover SO much and really, costumes are pretty low priority on any story.

Furthermore, if you consciously explain one design change, do we have to do more? Does the change in Penguin, Robin, Joker, Hatter etc also have to be explained. Sometimes, as much as a canon head I am, I have to agree with Ian and say "it's just model sheets... deal with it James, deal with it...)

[Stu]

Absolutely. As people can guess, I'm a canonhead myself. My mind justifies everything. While I utterly agree with Ian on this, as I said, in DKA my feeling is Bats goes for a darker costume (a more Bat looking one) because he associates his life now with Batman. However if it's pulled apart in fight, he may use his old one as back up until he's repaired his main one (which would explain SS eps, MOTB and ROTJ). Maybe. I don't know. I would like to throw a reason in, but we have SO little time to cover SO much and really, costumes are pretty low priority on any story.

Furthermore, if you consciously explain one design change, do we have to do more? Does the change in Penguin, Robin, Joker, Hatter etc also have to be explained. Sometimes, as much as a canon head I am, I have to agree with Ian and say "it's just model sheets... deal with it James, deal with it...)

Seems to be the only feasible explanation. Took me by surprise seeing the blue suit, not at all an unwelcome one. It wasn't explained in the cartoon, no real reason for it to be in the comic. :)

[Gillespee]

Would you rather be missing one story or have the Thrid December Issue released in mid-January? ;) Hmmm... If I cut the story, I'm a bad guy. If I leave the story and miss the deadline, I'm a bad guy. Agh!! :)
The easiest way to get around this is don't promise what you can't deliver... :evil:

I loved DKA early on, but I'm not really "digging" Batman's new total take-over of Bruce Wayne as well as it's resulting fractures with his friends. I might be the only one, but I've always enjoyed the Bat family. As you've explained, it's been planned for a long time and you are simply following the arc as you see it, but I'm still not sure I like it. Oh well, we'll see where it goes. Either, keep up the great art, it's very impressive.

[James]

The easiest way to get around this is don't promise what you can't deliver... :evil: Very evil. However, you'll see this thing happen in all areas of comics. I recall Arkham Asylum, Batman Vs Judge Dredd and I think Killing Joke were later than intended by some distance. It happens.

More so when the people who work for you aren't paid. The artist was falling a little behind, it is Christmas and Ian has no contract over him to hold him to. We just work together on good faith, so on occasions this will happen.

Personally for a project outside our jobs or student lives, I think we hold deadlines very well. As Ian said early, in hindsight I think this issue benefited from being just holiday stuff.

And overall, Ian did offer what was promised - 3 issues of DKA for December. I think that success far outweighs the loss of a 3 page story. :)


I loved DKA early on, but I'm not really "digging" Batman's new total take-over of Bruce Wayne as well as it's resulting fractures with his friends. That's a shame. I'd hope you enjoy the stories, even if you feel uncomfortable with the current situation.

All stories go through times of discomfort. That period when things go wrong in a film just around 15 minutes after the mid section montage only to have things go right at the end.

When this happens in a stand alone film or comic it's not so bad. When the Ghostbusters are all jailed in the film, you know that they are going to beat the monsters 20 minutes later.

In a comic, especially one with an arc like DKA, you can't have everything moving in a positive manner. In LOTR we see the breakup of the fellowship, it's a down beat moment but the action takes hold as the individual stories come together.

We all know that Batman doesn't remain disassociated from all his friends. We see Batman Beyond. We see Justice League season 2, Mystery Of The Batwoman, Static Shock, etc etc.. so one takes the present as being transisitional. It's how the transistions and change affects people which is fascinating.

What we hope makes DKA interesting that you'll keep coming back is watching the dynamic change for our fav cartoon characters in ways the TV team never had the remit or scope to allow. They had to on the whole, wrap things up every 20 minutes. Each cartoon had to be more or less stand alone.

Comics allow diversity. The mainstream comic has done many horrid things like this. Take Knightfall which lasted around 18 months.. What DKA is, is a hybrid of the BTAS and the dynamic of comic storytelling. It's a little deeper than the TV show - I'm not saying my writing is more complex than, say, Dini (god forbit, I love Dini's work to the uttermost)- I'm saying we are in a unique position to tell stories to a more mature audience while the TV show had to make sure it's band was far broader.

So yes there will be uncomfortable moments, but that comes with the fact that I think we have a more focused audience which is a little older and wiser than BTAS. We have no toys to sell, or adults to appease, knowing that what their kids are watching is wholesome. We make things darker because we think most of our readers either grew up watching BTAS or are at an age where they require something a little more complex and interwoven.

There is no point us repeating the formula of Timm and Dini - be it in art or writing. What would be the point? We'd only look like a second rate version of either of them. We have therefore pushed to create our own identity using the characters that we love as much as yourselves and move them on, answering some of the questions people have been asking for years along the way.



I might be the only one, but I've always enjoyed the Bat family. So have I. I was very disappointed that the comic Bat family has been sort of fragmented. I loved TBNA actually more than BTAS for the Bat family. However all families have their ups and downs and to feel for the family you need to portray it as a real family with the strains and struggles that pull it together AND apart.

In fact, DKA is about that family far more than TNBA was really allowed to do. The last story has dealt with the family far more than perhaps any other TNBA story telling. Monster Within and Trial Of Bruce Wayne was almost 90% exclusively Bat family. In the next few months we'll be following the impact of recent actions from those characters. Batman next month, Tim and Alfred the next.

Finally, the other benefit of such a dilemma splitting the team is it allows us something to throw at the characters. If this was a show, it would be something the actors would crave because it allows us reason to really get into the heads of those individual members. Tim is VERY different to Alfred who is utterly different in dealing with things to Dick who can't even fathom to think what Barbara is going through. Through pain comes colour. Colour of character. Yes we could do the standard fanfic stories which have been done for years, but I think fans (myself included) deserve something a little deeper and more mature.


As you've explained, it's been planned for a long time and you are simply following the arc as you see it, but I'm still not sure I like it. Oh well, we'll see where it goes. Either, keep up the great art, it's very impressive. Well stay with us. It's early days yet. You have some hints of the future from BB, ROTJ, MOTB etc, so you know the ending, it's how we get there which I hope will entertain. If we can make you laugh, cry, hate us, love us.. then we'll be doing the right thing! Time will tell!

Thanks for your kind and honest comments.

[Gillespee]

Very evil. However, you'll see this thing happen in all areas of comics. I recall Arkham Asylum, Batman Vs Judge Dredd and I think Killing Joke were later than intended by some distance. It happens.
As a clarification, that was not intended as a complaint (you guys do much more than I ever could), but as a simple observation that I've discovered in my own life.

Way to keep up with comic greats like the production crew of the Ultimates though!


We all know that Batman doesn't remain disassociated from all his friends. We see Batman Beyond.
Is that supposed to be comforting? :crying: I guess BB did have a happy ending (Tim, Barbara, and Bruce together in the hospital) but man that's bleak on the outset. Luckily you threw in JL and MOTB too. Keep it up guys, it's an interesting ride if nothing else.

[James]

As a clarification, that was not intended as a complaint (you guys do much more than I ever could), but as a simple observation that I've discovered in my own life.
No probs, I think it was an interesting point worth answering.



Is that supposed to be comforting? :crying: I guess BB did have a happy ending (Tim, Barbara, and Bruce together in the hospital) but man that's bleak on the outset. Luckily you threw in JL and MOTB too. Keep it up guys, it's an interesting ride if nothing else.
Especially after what we did in #12.. :shrug: Fair point. Well in a sense, we are knocking it a little downbeat because of Batman Beyond. We know things go down hill from "Mad Love". There seemed to be an implied problem with Dick and Bruce, Tim has no love for the cape, Bruce spends a couple of decades sulking in his mansion.. we have Alfred gone.. what happened to Jim Gordon..? So there is a definate change in beat SOMEWHERE between TNBA and BB.. so it makes sense that we try and mimic that change if we are to interpret the answers to some of those stories.

That said, I will say now, #12 didn't spell the end of the Bat family as in ROTJ, there is more to come.. just a change to them. This is hardly surprising, with Justice League becoming a priority to Batman and all the issues stemming from "Monster Within", it comes to no surprise that there will be changes. Sometimes they will be happy ones, sometimes they will be sad ones.. we want to try and have a sense of a rollercoaster effect... The #12 is decidely downbeat, the Nightwing issue ends, upbeat. The Holiday issue has a mix of forboding and sweet love.. so we are trying to make it not all depressing and as AS would put it, "shocking" :p. We hope there is spice there. :)

[Phantasm]

erm...will Dick's reaction to Barbara's wheel chair bound state be revealed to us anytime soon?

[James]

erm...will Dick's reaction to Barbara's wheel chair bound state be revealed to us anytime soon?
We'll try. :) To be honest, I personally don't see their relationship being too big at this point. Barb is in Gotham, NW is now in Bludhaven, their lives don't mix too much.. we'll be trying to add those little touches in as much as we can in the small space we have. We have 4-6 main characters and all their reactions are interesting.. that's the problem with epic stories! Then finding space for such characterisations within a story!

[Azbatz]

I have some suggestions on the fate of Jim. I think now that Batman has cut off Commissioner Gordon out of the mission we should see how Jim handles that. We saw his reaction when Batman didn’t show up and that was my personally favorite moment in DKA and I hope that wasn't the end of Jim's character. To me that’s when DKA started branching toward a new direction and exploring a whole new series. Anyway the news year thing was perfect, it’s the place of meeting, are we working together this year? And the answer is no. Will Barbara ever tell dad that she’s Batgirl?

[adoptedBatpuppy]

I loved the cover of this issue, but honestly I like every issue. I really enjoyed the way the words flowed like a lovely poem! :anime: I only wish there were more of other holidays to be focused upon, like Hanukkah, Ramadan and Kwanza, but Batman and Superman can't very well celebrate all of those holidays. It's way to many, even for our family to celebrate.

I just hope the next issue is just as plesant as all of your work was so far! :D Good Job Guys!

[James]

I have some suggestions on the fate of Jim. I think now that Batman has cut off Commissioner Gordon out of the mission we should see how Jim handles that. We will. Don't worry on that.



We saw his reaction when Batman didn’t show up and that was my personally favorite moment in DKA and I hope that wasn't the end of Jim's character. Nope - He's back next issue!


Will Barbara ever tell dad that she’s Batgirl? ....... maybe.. maybe not.


I loved the cover of this issue, but honestly I like every issue. I really enjoyed the way the words flowed like a lovely poem! :anime: I only wish there were more of other holidays to be focused upon, like Hanukkah, Ramadan and Kwanza, but Batman and Superman can't very well celebrate all of those holidays. It's way to many, even for our family to celebrate.
Lol. You'd get sick of all the poetry. :)

Actually the poetry was cool as it allowed me to cover around 7 didn't scenes in 2 pages. That's pretty useful when there are so many loose ends to tie, it just gives you a flavour of resolution before moving on. It would hard to have moved on without any nod to NW's treatment of Fitzgerald, but I think we've had enough to know what has since happened to Fitz and NW's feelings on the matter.

So it was fun doing the poetry - a lot of weight off my back! :D

[Salvor]

Nice issue, though I agree it's one of the weaker ones. Not that it's bad, it's just... a little too short to feel like more than just a conclusion.

Admittedly the first Scarecrow story sort of puzzled me. For instance it took me a while to figure out why you chose to start with a shot on the Mad Hatter and then focus on more DKA-related characters... but it works smoothly with that mysterious and creepy second page. Looking forward to your take on Crane. As for the second story I thought it was awesome. Great moment of intimacy in the life of the Gordons.

Great art by the way... but that's a given ;) The only thing that bugged me was the color of the word balloons, which looked a little too shiny for my taste.

[James]

Admittedly the first Scarecrow story sort of puzzled me. For instance it took me a while to figure out why you chose to start with a shot on the Mad Hatter and then focus on more DKA-related characters... but it works smoothly with that mysterious and creepy second page.
Phew. :sweat:


Great art by the way... but that's a given ;) The only thing that bugged me was the color of the word balloons, which looked a little too shiny for my taste.
I recall you might have said something similar on #12. Was I wrong? Beat up Trig on that! :D

Thanks Sal.

[Reverend]

Bah! Humbug!
White balloons are boring!

If you don't like funky lettering then you're gonna hate the next few issues Sal. So don't say I didn't warn you! :D

[paulie]

I may have gotten a different impression from the last page of "...And Never Brough to Mind". My first reaction was that Batman WAS going to meet Jim, but then saw Barb there, and didn't want to see her, thus further making Bats isolated. You know, that uncomfortable feeling when you don't want to talk to someone, so you take absurd steps to avoid them...amplified x10 since it's angsty Batman's mind. But that's just how I took it.

Gotta agree that the first story was a bit random, but at least it sets up future stories. I really liked the second story, had that "punch" that all good ones do :cool:

It is me, or does Barb on page 2 really, really look like old BB Barb?

[Reverend]

I don't think it's fair to judge the first two pages as a story, because it obvious isn't a story. It's more of a montage, like the kind you get at the end of some movies and/or TV shows that wrap up what has just happened and brings the reader into what is about to happen. There's no internal setup or payoff, just a Christmas themed look at what everyone's doing in the fallout from "Monster Within" & “Trial" with an added teaser for a future story.
The New Year’s segment on the other hand is meant to be a much more focused narrative with a clear beginning middle and end.
Personally (bearing in mind I had nothing to do with anything past page 2) I think the issue works great for what it is, a holiday themed epilogue. I'm actually glad we had to postpone the scarecrow story, since I'm sure that would have really unbalanced everything, even if it left us with a smaller than normal page count.

[OmegaPaladin]

In all honesty I can't really develop feelings for a 6 page book. The only thing I find odd is Barbara as a paraplegic. I'm assuming this is temporary, and/or she is cured by some medical breakthrough, unless you plan to jettison BB.

[James]

I may have gotten a different impression from the last page of "...And Never Brough to Mind". My first reaction was that Batman WAS going to meet Jim, but then saw Barb there, and didn't want to see her, thus further making Bats isolated. You know, that uncomfortable feeling when you don't want to talk to someone, so you take absurd steps to avoid them...amplified x10 since it's angsty Batman's mind. But that's just how I took it.

There was an idea we were thinking about with Bruce actually setting up the meeting. Trying to remain detached from everyone, but not wanting everyone hurt.

There was an idea that Barbara knew about the tradition from Bruce AND Jim, so put two and two together.

There was an idea that Batman still just watches Jim from afar. Even though he shouldn't he can't help be pulled there.

There was an idea that he was going to turn up and Barb did instead..

We felt in the end it was best to let you read what you wanted into it.

Which you have.



Gotta agree that the first story was a bit random, but at least it sets up future stories. I really liked the second story, had that "punch" that all good ones do images/smilies/cool.gif

What Kris said. The first was something I didn't plan but Ian asked for, so I drew up something at shortnotice that would juxtapose the New Year story. It seemed just a nice space to tie up events and position characters where they needed to be.



It is me, or does Barb on page 2 really, really look like old BB Barb?

It's you.. and a little of Ian's colouring methinks. Looks like she's been at the hairdye again. ;)

In all honesty I can't really develop feelings for a 6 page book. The only thing I find odd is Barbara as a paraplegic. I'm assuming this is temporary, and/or she is cured by some medical breakthrough, unless you plan to jettison BB.
Barbara has been in that state for almost 10 issues now. :p So shouldn't be too much of a suprise. :) Yes, we are still adhereing to BB canon. Yes she is totally paraplegic. Go figure. ;)

Well I can't really believe you can't develop "feeling" for a 6 page book. We all base our feelings one what we are given, be it 1 page or 100 pages. The is stimuli and narrative, so a feeling is there.

Being the net, we can't do 30 page comics. First off, we don't have the spare time to indulge in that. We don't get paid, it kills incentive when one needs money to live, and secondly the net isn't suited for 30 page stories.

Quite frankly I think 10 pages is a good amount. The attention span on the net is decidely smaller than in paper format. Hardcore fans of comics may have no issues, but the average joe really gets tired of clicking after around 10. 6 is just over half that.

Furthermore, a lot happens in those 4 pages of narrative. The first two ties up a LOAD of loose ends, gives the reader and idea what has happened to our heroes and offers some future portents. I think that's PRETTY good for 2 pages.. ;)

The second, offers a little more humanity and gives people some more experience to Barbara stuck in a wheelchair, her back irrepairably smashed.

Since we don't have as much space as we would like, we have try our best to give you the feeling even if we can't give you the words to people's circumstance. I think Barb's situation and attitude to her situation is pretty clear in this issue. We will build on it, but it offers those stepping stones.

All to their opinion, if it didn't tickle you, that's cool. We kind of failed then I suppose! :p However we worked hard to give you just these 4 pages for the Holiday. We busted a gut to get one double sized issue out, get another one out for December and then worked through the holiday to get a final year epilogue to you. Of course, we get benefits from it - it was a good experience to draw and write, it can't help sting when someone says it did nothing. :p That's worse than hating it!! :D At least there is a reaction there.

So don't underestimate this issue. There are LOADS of important things happening there. Hints to Batman's direction, what's happening to Barb, Jim, Tim and Alfred as well as some foretelling of an event which may lead to the biggest tragedy in the history of Batman... if all goes to plan. :)

[Phantasm]

So don't underestimate this issue. There are LOADS of important things happening there. Hints to Batman's direction, what's happening to Barb, Jim, Tim and Alfred as well as some foretelling of an event which may lead to the biggest tragedy in the history of Batman... if all goes to plan. :)
Now that is a scary comment there...:eek:
Is Jim going to Die?!:crying: I dunno...I have a feeling it's Jim...and it would be a catastrophe if he died without getting things straight with Batman...:( SO, unbearably sad...
No!But u can't do something like that to dear brucey...will u?:ack: :confused:

[James]

Now that is a scary comment there...:eek:
Is Jim going to Die?!:crying: I dunno...I have a feeling it's Jim...and it would be a catastrophe if he died without getting things straight with Batman...:( SO, unbearably sad...
No!But u can't do something like that to dear brucey...will u?:ack: :confused:
Well I can't give anything away, but the intent is not to shock, the issues in reference will be deeply imbeded in the story. Believe it or not, we don't want to just make people cry, but to offer them something fresh and a little different. So I hope that the next few months will be an enjoyable experience.

So don't worry, I don't think anything I'll do will seem inconsistent or just to upset people. I like to try and make every up and down relevant to the story so people don't feel like they are being shortchanged and their show being kicked, mocked or not taken seriously.

We have a great deal of variation in the tales this year so I think you'll find it's a fun experience!

[Azbatz]

The biggest tragedy in Batman? The biggest tragedy would be Batman failing the mission; I think we saw that in the last usse when Batman Beyond dies or in the first episode of Batman Beyond when Bruce almost fires a gun to kill. Anyhow I can only wonder...

[James]

The biggest tragedy in Batman? The biggest tragedy would be Batman failing the mission; I think we saw that in the last usse when Batman Beyond dies or in the first episode of Batman Beyond when Bruce almost fires a gun to kill. Anyhow I can only wonder...
Okay, let me correct that to "in my opinion!". It is fair to say there are several tragedies in Bruce's life. Let's say I think the one I have planned is a defining one. I hate it when I overhype.. >< *smacks wrists*

In the meantime I hope you enjoy our next issue which will be far less dark yet certainly a spotlight Batman moment! :)

[The Flash]

It is me, or does Barb on page 2 really, really look like old BB Barb?




It's you.. and a little of Ian's colouring methinks. Looks like she's been at the hairdye again. ;)

Actually, I didn't color that page. :shrug: Unless I've totally screwed this up? Page 2 is actually page 1 of the Christmas story, which is Kris' coloring. However, I don't think it's the coloring that is adding age. Rather, it's the tears and extra lines on her face. In a way, it does kind of resemble Beyond Babs... :)

[James]

Actually, I didn't color that page. :shrug: Unless I've totally screwed this up? Page 2 is actually page 1 of the Christmas story, which is Kris' coloring. However, I don't think it's the coloring that is adding age. Rather, it's the tears and extra lines on her face. In a way, it does kind of resemble Beyond Babs... :)
><. Yeap, page to was Kris. I was thinking of Page 2 of the second story. Yes, that wasn't Ian's colouring. Well, there was no intentional effort. Just a lucky side effect!

[James]

News on upcoming issue and other events will be coming VERY soon! Watch this space!

[MrTuesday]

I just read the comic, and I loved it. I didn't like Terry dying, but it was handled well.

There's a few things that make it look like it may not complelty fit with the major continuity points from TNBA through BB.

Barbara's in a wheelchair. When we see her walking fine in BB. Hopefully Barbara's condition is temperary.

Batman kicks everyone out, yet Tim is still Robin. I figured Batman didn't become a loner untill after Joker died and forced Tim to stop being Robin.

It's fine that you're moving on to the JL Bat-Costume. Though I'm looking forward to Bruce's eventual use of the Batman Beyond costume.