Justice League Unlimited "Wake the Dead" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Bird Boy]

Just guess what this ones about...


http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/talkback.jpg (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/)

Episode #11 - Wake the Dead
Original Airdate - December 18th, 2004

When Solomon Grundy rises from the grave, an old friend must come out of hiding and team up with the League once more.

Comments?

[Funkatron]

Generic Intro'd!!!!

[Red X Unmasked]

HawkGirl in intro! Hellzies!

[karasu]

Whoa! Pretty good so far!

[Mister Intensity]

Thise credits stink. The credits used to get me excited about the upcoming episode, now it just bores with the most boring clips they could think of adding. Thanks for killing something that was unique.

Mister Intensity

[Killtacular]

The animation in the fight between Grundy and the League had much improved over last week. This is only going by JL's standards, I'm not comparing to TT because I guess that's impossible for JLU to attain. But still, not bad. The shots are more clever than previous fights, I've noticed that. They weren't afraid to be a little more creative and experimental with the choreography, which is a direction JL needs to go badly. My final thoughts after the episode is over.

[Space Cadet]

The animation in the fight between Grundy and the League had much improved over last week. This is only going by JL's standards, I'm not comparing to TT because I guess that's impossible for JLU to attain. But still, not bad. The shots are more clever than previous fights, I've noticed that. They weren't afraid to be a little more creative and experimental with the choreography, which is a direction JL needs to go badly. My final thoughts after the episode is over.
I noticed it too. It seems that the punches look like they actually hurt. Maybe it's a new choregraphy director for this episode?

[CyberCubed]

Good episode, but some parts of it made me cringe.

ALL those buildings get destroyed, and only ONE little kid needed saving? How the heck did all those people evacuate in time?

Not to mention Superman punches Grundy through a bunch of cars that some people might have been in.

Other than that good ep.

[kaine23]

Fate's team should get their own series.

[Metallo]

Gotta give it 4 out of 5 stars.

Had the touching moments and we got to see some good character development (even from the seemingly mindless Grundy). Plus we got to find out how the final vote went at the end of Justice League. A good episode on the whole.

[shoujoaifan]

SUPER MAGIC GLOWING DEX EX MACHINA MACE!

Heh, just had to say that :p

OVERALL, a pretty good episode, although a little corny and preachy at the end.

[Nick K.]

I really liked this episode. Hopefully Shayera will stick around. I have a feeling that the clips shown for the upcoming episodes aren't including her for a reason....

[karasu]

I liked this episode alot. I'm glad amazo left and couldn't simply wipe everything out like he did on that other god awful episode. Because of magic, like they should have used against him in the first place!!! I digress.

This ep was one big fight scene like last weeks, but this fight rocked. All of the characters were well represented and nobody did anything conveniently stupid. What was the animal woman's name? I loved her.

[Stewie]

All of a sudden Stewart forgives her? I missed a few episodes, did something else happen to explain this? Or did he just say to himself,"It's a new season, and technically it's a new show. Why not just forget what happened before?"
I used to like GL's character (as much I could, considering what there is to work with). He should be at best, stand-offish to Hawkgirl. Eventually he can come to trust her again. That blew large chunks.

Plus, the whole thing with her having to put Grundy "out of his misery" but being torn apart over it didn't play.
Weak.

[PaQ]

I didn't really like the use of Grundy in the episode, since it was essentially just the shell, filled with all the power those stupid kids did at the beginning of the episode. Sorta took away from his death episode, missed his voice, but it wasn't him, I guess they had to think of a way to bring Shayera back into the fold, and I thought it was done pretty well in that aspect. Nice to see her helping out and good ol' John pacing around. Just like old times. :p

[Killtacular]

I think I'd give this episode more than a 3/5 if it wasn't for the fact that they ruined the opening of the episode with really unnecessary humor. They're terrible at humor. I mean the best you can do is "I got it off the internet"? The Fairly Oddparents did that joke three years ago. Stop going for the easy kill and come up with something clever.

I also felt that the storyline was not really that strong. Grundy arises, must be killed. I don't really feel that this was a good way to bring back Hawkgirl, as I am one of the people who despises The Terror Beyond and feels that the ending was such a tacked on left-field approach at sappiness that it only made a dumb episode dumber. The stuff at the end with the crowd loathing Hawkgirl.. I wanted to see a little more of that. This episode did not deserve an hour... rather, I would have liked to see the story focus on Hawkgirl's return and the public's acceptance than the 9+ minutes of fighting.

However this episode had GOOD direction and GOOD storyboarding so at the very least it was an episode you could enjoy out of pure entertainment (unlike last week's that had no soul or drive at all).

[CyberCubed]

Why couldn't they send reinforcements down to help? I'm sure Martian Manhunter loves giving orders to the other members during their free time.

[Eddie G.]

I thought the character interactions, the story, and the visuals really came together. However there was some rough dialogue. But still a very good episode, almost as good as Return.



I think I'd give this episode more than a 3/5 if it wasn't for the fact that they ruined the opening of the episode with really unnecessary humor. They're terrible at humor. I mean the best you can do is "I got it off the internet"? The Fairly Oddparents did that joke three years ago. Stop going for the easy kill and come up with something clever.
Agreed, especially since the kicker with Grundy's arm bursting through the door and grabing the kid's head was pretty cool.

[warmachine04]

(+) By far, the must-see episode of JLU. If you liked "Starcrossed" and "The Terror Beyond", then you will enjoy "Wake the Dead".
(+) Solid storyline, nice ending and great action.

(+) The return of Shayera Hol and Solomon Grundy was well done.

(+) Superman was at his best. Nice entrance.

(+) Love triangle between Green Lantern, Vixen and Shayera.

(-) No Flash.

:D :D :D

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Wow! Best episode I've seen in a while. Pretty cool episode.

[matta2fatta]

that was the best f'n thing i ever saw my entire life

[noahrave]

Hawkgirl! Vixen! GL! Supes! Aquaman! Fate! Yea!

Hawkgirl - angst, brooding, guilt-ridden... hopefully redeemtion

Vixen - Sazzy, cleavage-baring costume, super-hot babe and spicy attitude (1 episode of her with lines finally and I LIKE HER!)

GL - the man is a PIMP!! but the playa can't truly play with Bats or his ex-hawkbabe around but he sure can pick some HOT shorties... Katma, Hawkgirl now Vixen... wondering if Vixen was the one who got him to shave his head bald...

Supes, Aquaman, Fate... they all'ight...

This episode would be nicer if it was an hour long though... just to see GL and Vixen on their date. However, it looks like Vix got the idea that GL still has birdies on his brain.

Fav line: "How about we discussion this for a couple hours, that way he's sure to escape!"

2nd fav: "Hate the beard."

[stwasm]

Well, this makes up last week's lame episode. Good action, tense moments, but it ended a little too abruptly for me. Darn those half-hour, one-part episodes! But, check it. Did you notice Vixen was a little perturbed at John's obviously still caring for Shayera? I'd love to see a little triangle among those three! Also, I'm not so sure Shayera killed Grundy. There's just some doubt there. Now, THAT would be yet another betrayal by her. Also, what's Aquaman doing hanging out at Dr. Fate's? Though he obviously is a member of the Justice League, I just found that strange.

But, excellent episode, a definite VCR-keeper! Peace!

[SirLemming]

Well, they finally resolved the issue of "ZOMBIES DON'T DIE." But they didn't do a good job with the issue of "Grundy is Hawkgirls' friend?" I wish there were a better motivation behind Hawkgirl's return. I couldn't really get into that.

But they did a fine job executing a pretty shaky story (which was also kind of the case with the previous Grundy episode -- terrible plot, great execution -- but not quite as severe). Strangely enough, Matt Wilson's complaints about the animation seem to have magically had an effect on this episode. And there was some generally cool stuff relating to "Starcrossed," like how we finally found out what the vote was.


I think I'd give this episode more than a 3/5 if it wasn't for the fact that they ruined the opening of the episode with really unnecessary humor. They're terrible at humor. I mean the best you can do is "I got it off the internet"? The Fairly Oddparents did that joke three years ago. Stop going for the easy kill and come up with something clever.
At least they didn't use the word "eBay". I gave them some credit for that.

[awh1978]

All of the characters were well represented and nobody did anything conveniently stupid. What was the animal woman's name?
Her name is Vixen, and I would say that she actually did do the one stupid thing in the episode. AMAZO said that Grundy was absorbing his energy, and given Grundy's Doomsday-like power she shouldn't have started celebrating so quickly. At the very least, not on top of Grundy.

[MJC]

Good episode, no real complaints. 4.5/5

The Flash is sorely missed, though.

[shadowstrain]

Alright, in terms of story, this episode really didn't deliver. The typical beat up the bad-guy episode, but certain elements allowed it to shine. For one, nice job with the character development in Hawkgirl. And the new mace sound effects make her seem twice as powerful (plus the fact she held the advantage in the fight). Speaking of fights, they were fantastic this time around, as well as the effects. To top it off, Dr. Fate and the Android= sweatness. Too bad magic didn't work.:sad:

[EJill34]

However this episode had GOOD direction and GOOD storyboarding so at the very least it was an episode you could enjoy out of pure entertainment (unlike last week's that had no soul or drive at all).What'd I tell you last week on the "Dark Heart" talkback?

Anyway, this is one of my favorite JL/JLU episodes ever. Really, its pretty great. It even has a couple of nice musical cues (at the end with Grundy)though they are rather simple.

I was glad that they didn't play up the angst between the League (specifically Green Lantern) and Hawkgirl too much. It was more subtle and I felt it worked.

Some other random notes:
-Always good to see Dr. Fate and Aquaman.
-The teaser was a big change from the usual JL/JLU teaser, which I liked.
-I thought that lady calling Hawkgirl "Chica Halcone" was hilarious for some reason...
-Vixen got a nice introduction. I'm looking forward to seeing more episodes with her.

A ***** episode to be sure, ranking just under "FTMWHE" and above "The Return."

[Metallo]

There is one thing I am waondring - what happened to the kids at the beginning? I mean, Grundy arrived and certainly did not look like he was friendly...

[Jade_GL]

This was a great improvement over the last two episodes. Yes there was action, but it was interesting and no one *jobbed* at all. Everyone was well represented, as was already mentioned, and the animation was leagues better than last weeks offering. The expressions were amazing during those action sequences. Man. Great looking stuff, from a purely animation stand point.

Also, intriguing storyline that brought back Grundy and Hawkgirl. Good interplay between the team members, the Fate team, and the crowd at the end.

Although, I was really intrigued by the clips at the end of the episode. Looks JSA-riffic, but that's just the comic book geek in me coming out. Plus, that chick that we saw for two seconds with the pony tail and squiggly earrings looked kind of like Roulette (JSA villain, forces people to fight each other in arena like atmosphere....) so I almost freaked out, though it could be anyone, so don't take my word for it... Anyway, I think that that looks cool, plus Wildcat... I really love Wildcat... :)

Compared to the last two, this is a five star offering, but I think it's probably a 4 out of 5 all together. Can I just say again I was blown away by the animation in comparison to what we saw last week? Just looked great. :) It really shows when you consider the expressions (or lack thereof) last week and what we saw tonight.

I'll stop jabbering now.

[Metallo]

Some other random notes:
-Vixen got a nice introduction. I'm looking forward to seeing more episodes with her.Gina Torres (whom Angel fans will remember as "Jasmine") did a solid job of voicing Vixen and for that reason, as well as the fact her character was portrayed pretty well, I hope to see more of Vixen in the future.

[Fone Bone]

Vixen needs to die. Now. Scratch that. No more tragic memories for John. He dumps her ass after he catches her cheating with Red Tornado.

I am so bummed they killed Grundy off at the end. You had better bring him back b.t. And he had better still be friends with Hawkgirl.

Aquaman was quite the...rhymes with stick this episode. A sore winner which is ten times worse than a sore loser. And what's with all the chauvanism and Hawkgirl bashing? Did he and Wayman Tisdale switch bodies?

We know that Superman broke the tie and John abstained. That means Flash and Jonn likely voted to keep her while Batman and Diana voted to boot her.

Can I just say again how much I love Hawkgirl? Most beautiful woman in the DCAU. And MAN, I was feeling for her this episode. Having to put Grundy down must have killed her. So glad she's back in the theme. But she didn't replace Flash did she? I miss him almost as much.

About the theme, I like the clips. They got the best picture of the Question, I think.

Who was that Ghost Rider guy in the end teaser? It looked like Blight. I like Batman dressed as a cowboy.

Amazo rocks. He just does. I love how b.t. and Dwayne McDuffie took a stock villian from the comics and made him into a multifaceted good guy. Brilliant. I love Dr. Fate too. His motley crew SHOULD get a spinoff or at least more focus. Amazo is just cool and he had a lot of great lines. "I AM in the room you know." More human every day. They need to start calling him Amazo instead of just "The Android".

As for the stupid kids in the teaser. You just DON'T mess with Dark Arts as a lark. Eight years of Buffy and Angel taught me that.

I really miss the old Grundy and hope his memories return if he reappears again. Didn't the Grundy in the comics keep getting ressurrected with a different aspect of Cyrus Gold's personality? Thank you Karkull's Watchtower.

I have to think about my grade some more. I will say this. This was the first of the new batch of episodes I wasn't disappointed with. Score: later.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Decent to good episode, Vixen's introduction was well done, the fighting was great, the story not so much. I enjoyed "The Terror Beyond", but this wasn't quite as good. Decent enough episode, though.

[EJill34]

Gina Torres (whom Angel fans will remember as "Jasmine") did a solid job of voicing Vixen and for that reason, as well as the fact her character was portrayed pretty well, I hope to see more of her in the future.Yeah, Gina Torres did an excellent job on her. I was glad to see that John Stewart had sort of moved on but I guess Hawkgirl's return has squashed anything Vixen had with him.


Aquaman was quite the...rhymes with stick this episode. A sore winner which is ten times worse than a sore loser. And what's with all the chauvanism and Hawkgirl bashing? Did he and Wayman Tisdale switch bodies?
Well, I hope not because then they might ban Aquaman from the show...

...But really, I'm pretty sure that the point of that scene was Aquaman trying to get a reaction from a very depressed Hawkgirl. I thought Dr. Fate's comment "I could have told you that wouldn't work" makes it seem pretty obvious that was the intention of that specific scene.

[TheScarecrow]

Now THIS is more like it. Last week's episode was bland and boring, but this week made up for that very well.

Nice direction and animation was used here. Nice use of continuity that didn't get in the way of the storytelling. Some nice interaction between characters. It was entertaining to watch, and not boring. Well done, Bruce Timm.

****1/2

[Allen CARR]

I do Believe Grundy killed that kid that summoned him. They just could not show it.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

That was a really good episode. An incredible story...poor Grundy, can't help but feel sorry for him again.

Someone mentioned that this episode took away the awesomeness of "The Terror Beyond." I gotta admit, I was worried that might happen. But in my opinion, it just expanded on it. It was better than "The Terror Beyond." Now, after this episode how can anybody hate Aquaman? I've always liked Aquaman and never understood why everyone hates him and seems to think he's only good "in the water."

Vixen--she was on fire! Hoooowwwwlllllleeeeoooohh!! I always wanted to see her in animation, didn't catch the voice actresses name in the credits, but I didn't rewind to check them out.

Amazo--I think I might like him as a superhero. In the comics he was kind of cheesy but he seems so beleivable in this series. I felt that ever since "Tabula Rasa."

As for the Flash--I wonder if Micheal Rosenbaum really just didn't want to be involved this season since it obviously must be a hassle with his work on Smallville and all, maybe he asked the gang if he could not have any voice acting this season. Just a theory.

[Master Moron]

Am I the only one who noticed that Flash is missing from the opening? It's official, Flash is no longer a main member of the team. He'll probably never appear in an episode again. This sucks.

[Metallo]

We know that Superman broke the tie and John abstained. That means Flash and Jonn likely voted to keep her while Batman and Diana voted to boot her.Is this really a surprise as to how those folks voted, with respect to the 4 other league members aside from Superman and Green Lantern? I mean, given Batman's rather "black and white" view of the world, he would pretty much tag Hawkgirl as a villain; Wonder Woman made her feelings completely known, as did the Flash and J'onn. The only two you that you could not really predict would have been Green Lantern and Superman, and we found out which way they went tonight.

[SirLemming]

Yeah, Gina Torres did an excellent job on her.
Except when she was in Grundy's clutches. "Uh. Ahh. Uh."

[Mr_Millions]

I enjoyed the episode. The fights had more impact, which was nice. Speaking of impact, with the "government vs. justice league" subplot, are their going to be more complaints about damages? They did knock over a statue, one that looked rather important.

I was actually wishing for more metaphysical shennanegins (a la The Terror Beyond). But they could only fit so much into one episode. Which also exlpains why the ending was gooey and unsatisfying.

At least Hawkgirl's back. I've missed the smashing.

[Trevor Balena]

Aquaman was quite the...rhymes with stick this episode. A sore winner which is ten times worse than a sore loser. And what's with all the chauvanism and Hawkgirl bashing? Did he and Wayman Tisdale switch bodies?

...

Amazo rocks. He just does. I love how b.t. and Dwayne McDuffie took a stock villian from the comics and made him into a multifaceted good guy. Brilliant. I love Dr. Fate too. His motley crew SHOULD get a spinoff or at least more focus. Amazo is just cool and he had a lot of great lines. "I AM in the room you know." More human every day. They need to start calling him Amazo instead of just "The Android".
Aquaman wasn't being sexist or a sore winner; we was trying to get a rise out of Hawkgirl, to shake her out of her funk. That's why Dr. Fate said, "I could have told you that wouldn't work."

And Dr. Fate did refer to the Android as "Amazo".

[Metallo]

Except when she was in Grundy's clutches. "Uh. Ahh. Uh."
And exactly how loudly do you expect someone to yell when their lungs are being crushed...? ;)

[Phantasm]

This episode, for the most part can be described as nothing more than mindless tumbling of buildings and bridges. The plotline started out interesting enough but then sort of dragged on.


I was anticipting Shayera's presence a lot, and this episode was rather a sorry excuse to get her back. The first scene with her and Aquaman was probably the highlight of the entire episode. After that it just...ugh...there is only so much you can do with a 'dead' zombie walking around breaking everything in its path...:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:


So...why is John all of a sudden all forgiving towards Shayera? And I thought the WW/BM 'romance' was forced.:rolleyes: And that other woman was thrown into the mix to create supposed tension.

Animation was fluid and eye catching, probably the only thing that made me sit through the entire thing. Dialogue was not the best. "Is my destiny to be a destroyer?" (or something like that) I'm sure JLU has done better...

The only reason I left the episode, all ecstatic and giddy is because:

BRUCIE BECOMES A COWBOY!!!!!!!!!!!!:anime: :anime: :anime: :eek:

Now THAT is interesting!!!!I mean wow, Bruce can make even a cowboy outfit look chic!:p I can barely contain myself!!!!!!!YYYEEEEEEEEHAAAAA!!!!!!!!

and didn't Mr. Timm do a great grunting job?!:anime:

[Fone Bone]

Gina Torres (whom Angel fans will remember as "Jasmine") did a solid job of voicing Vixen and for that reason, as well as the fact her character was portrayed pretty well, I hope to see more of Vixen in the future.I knew I recognized the voice. Still dislike Vixen intensley though. Shipping is hard.

[Dogbert]

The episode was great. I also think we should all give CN a big thanks for keeping the ad breaks limited to, what was it, two?

[Mister Intensity]

Am I the only one who noticed that Flash is missing from the opening? It's official, Flash is no longer a main member of the team. He'll probably never appear in an episode again. This sucks. I noticed and all I have to say, too much catering to the fanboys. Also, I liked the teasers in the old credits.

Mister Intensity

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Now THIS is more like it. Last week's episode was bland and boring, but this week made up for that very well.

Nice direction and animation was used here. Nice use of continuity that didn't get in the way of the storytelling. Some nice interaction between characters. It was entertaining to watch, and not boring. Well done, Bruce Timm.

****1/2
Actually, the credit goes to Mr. Dwayne McDuffie. He's the guy who wrote this gem. And I do mean jem. The more I think about it, the more I loved this episode. Thanks Dwayne!

[EJill34]

Actually, the credit goes to Mr. Dwayne McDuffie. He's the guy who wrote this gem. And I do mean jem. The more I think about it, the more I loved this episode. Thanks Dwayne!
Dwayne McDuffie just rocks. He's such an underrated writer. When his schedule lightens up a bit after JLU finishes I'd love to see him on one of the major DC or Marvel books. Seriously, this guy needs to be writing more comics.

[Fone Bone]

Aquaman wasn't being sexist or a sore winner; we was trying to get a rise out of Hawkgirl, to shake her out of her funk. That's why Dr. Fate said, "I could have told you that wouldn't work." Yes, because yelling and acting like a jackass always cheers people up. Rhymes with stick.


And Dr. Fate did refer to the Android as "Amazo".When? I got to check it out when I rewatch it.

[awh1978]

Am I the only one who noticed that Flash is missing from the opening? It's official, Flash is no longer a main member of the team. He'll probably never appear in an episode again. This sucks.
Are you sure? I saw him in his usual place between Superman and Batman. Besides, give the creative team at least a little credit. Whatever their personal feelings about the Flash (and I have no idea what they are) they wouldn't just permanently drop one of the original seven unless one of the higher ups forced them to. That's horrible storytelling, and they've already proven that they are better than that.

[Youko Recca]

I liked Vixen, hope to see more of her in the future. Good episode, new there was one on the way. Solomon Grundy was more fearful due to his lack of ANY kind of emotion, nothing held him back. Nice.

[Fone Bone]

I noticed and all I have to say, too much catering to the fanboys. Also, I liked the teasers in the old credits.

Mister IntensityWait Flash wasn't in the opening? That sucks. I'm checking those credits again. How is pissing us off catering to us?

[EJill34]

Yes, because yelling and acting like a jackass always cheers people up. Rhymes with stick.When? I got to check it out when I rewatch it.
Right after Amazo travels several light years...

Dr. Fate: "My magic is as useless as Amazo's technology."

[Fone Bone]

Waitta minute he IS there. Both in the group shot and his solo show running. Who started this rumor? I hope it wasn't me. I just asked cause I wasn't sure.:o

Edit: I mean Flash. He's in the opening. Honest.

[Merlin Missy]

I hate repeating myself, so I'm gonna point to my fangirly squeeing from the previous thread here (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?p=1516742#post1516742).

Second, something that's been worrying me and I'm going to share: No women in refrigerators! Vixen and Shayera had better stay alive. I want to see this love triangle in all its glory, and more, I want to see these two women become friends. Why? Because it'll give John a headache. :evil:

*is still bouncing, because she's just that pathetic*

MM:)

ETA: Flash was in the credits. My kid pointed to him and shouted "Wally!" when he was on the screen.

[Fone Bone]

Right after Amazo travels several light years...

Dr. Fate: "My magic is as useless as Amazo's technology."Thanks. This is going to be an episode with a high rewatchability factor.

[Simpler Simon]

Wait Flash wasn't in the opening? That sucks. I'm checking those credits again. How is pissing us off catering to us? He is, unless they changed the episode since the Canadian airing a month ago.

Been interesting to see everyone's reactions to this episode. I thought the "deus ex machina mace" which everyone ragged on in season 2 would be a point of much contention, but appearantly you're all cool with it. Or maybe I just haven't let the talkback run its course yet...

Things I mentioned the first time around:
-Couldn't they put Hawkgirl in something more than an undershirt for her intro pic?
-AMAZO's sudden departure was comical. They had to write the character out to give more depth to the story, and there's no easy way to do that, but it just seemed rather silly.
-College boys waking the dead didn't do it for me. There must've been some other, cooler way to call back Grundy.
-Aquaman's entrance was rather obvious fanservice, and caters to his cliche as a hero that only functions in water, but I loved it.
-Great fighting sequences, as mentioned. Joaquim Dos Santos is probably the best DCAU director in recent history.
-Vixen's arrogance is annoying, but her clevage is tantilizing. So confused...

EDIT: Shoulda just done the Merlin Missy bit.

[creativerealms]

This was a good episode. I just wish they came up with a better reason for Grundy's return then being summoned by nerds. They should have just used his reserecting Zombie statis as is. That would have been simpier. Nice that we finally have a reason why Hawkgirls mace is the most powerful item in existance.

Oh and John made a hand. It is nice when he actually does more then beams and bubbles.

[firstbornalways]

I gave this three and a half stars. Now looking back at it here's what i liked and what I didnt. First of all if the animators think having Aquaman be so darn rude to Hawkgirl would make him sound macho they failed miserably. Even if someone's sexist, being a ruler of an empire he should be depicted as more noble as there is a certain standard of behaviour for a ruler. What did he want to happen when he smashed that chess board in two? I found Amazo's continually beating him at chess to be hilarious, and especially the lines he gave while doing so. There was no Batman here, thank God. He would have beaten Grundy. Probably constructed a suit of Nth Metal and pounded the crap out of him (that doesn't sound that bad actually). Superman gave one good punch the entire episode and that was a sucker punch. That bugs the hell out of me. A sucker punch. Grundy smashes Hawkgirl through a wall and she's ok. Knocks vixen everywhere and she recovers nicely. But Superman gets ripped up and has huge scratches on his face compared to all those heroes who statistically speaking should possess only a miniscule fraction of his power. Grundy...for a guy who is supposed to be insanely powerful sure took a long time to push that building. AND that's all he did. Push it. There would have been much more effect on the first confrontation of Gl and Hawkgirl if they suddenly could see a buidling hurled at them. These animators really dont have the characters fight smart at all. There were so many ways of the characters beating Grundy. A) Dr. Fate puts Grundy in same pocket dimension as HG's mace. B) Amazo makes himself into Nth metal and smacks Grundy silly. C) J'onn J'onnz mind controls the Parasite into absorbing Grundy's might and then Fate puts Grundy in mentioned dimension. D) Since Dr. Fate already learned concerning Nth metal he'd tell Amazo "Do this..." E)Superman punches Grundy into atmosphere and then knocks him into space leaving him to drift able to harm noone. F) Grundy knocked through boomtube into sun. As it is everyone fought dumb and Superman's portrayal made me cringe as usual (not as much as the CRAPFEST ultimatum episode though).

[Allen CARR]

To bad Grundy killed that college kid, i saw signs of Buffy villians from that kid.

[Dr_Flask]

WOW!!! Just WOW!!! Once again Hawkgirl saves JLU behinds!

It seems everytime Hawkgirl onscreen we are almost guarantee an emotional, caracter develop episode! Why they gave HG(Maria Canals) mininal screentime this year, I dunno why? She brings so much emotions to nearly all the characters, especially GLJohn Stewart!
This episode clearly is the best number# 2 episode of JLU since The Return, I'm willing to say they tied for #1!

HG is clearly the best-looking thing in the DCAU and I glad her animation wasn't slighted:sweat: I will say Vixen DID NOT grate and was very lovely to look at, with the skintight out fit and all, but next HG...no comparison. LOL

Grundy was as big as The Hulk and very fierce! I felt scared for Supes, Vixen, and even Amazo. I'm glad his return was freakin' cool!

Of course we have the astounding Dr. Fate and even I liked Aquaman here(who would've thought):anime:

A++++ episode tonite!! I'm watching it again!

[WonderRaver]

As a person who never cared too much about Hawkgirl, I must say that I liked this episode.

+Vixen is soooooo cool! I love how her powers were portrayed. The healing thing was awesome.
+An explanation of the oh-so-mighty-mace. I can buy the Nth Metal as far as magic goes... deflecting planet-destroying beams on the other hand....
+A mention of Diana!
+Good balance of action scenes and talkie scenes.

-The plot seemed a little thin... but it served its purpose I suppose.
-Only a mention of Diana ;) Honestly, she would have been pointless in this ep as far as the action goes. It'll be interesting to see when Di and Shay meet up again though. My hope is that Di is over her initial anger and that she is the ambassador of peace she's supposed to be (well, at least in my mind).

I gave it 4 stars!
-Matt

[SilverKnight]

Yes, because yelling and acting like a jackass always cheers people up. Rhymes with stick.You're missing the point. Put aside your Hawkgirl protectiveness and look at the scene more objectively. He wasn't trying to cheer her up. Obviously he or someone else tried that before and it didn't work. Dealing with someone who's been depressed for a long period of time is a real drag, I mean, seriously. It's even more life-sucking when it's a person you respect and/or care about, and when nothing else manages to work, sometimes you'll resort to harsh words in order to piss the person off; y'know, try to get them to stand up and defend themselves. Of course, it doesn't always work (as a matter of fact, I'd wager it usually backfires), but when it appears that no other option is open, you will take the risk eventually. Desperate times and all that. And what's with the Vixen-hate? If she wasn't going out with John and screwing over your GL/HG shipper love, would you hate her so much?

Anyway, I really liked this episode. Kinda shaky in premise, but it had really good execution. Good fight sequences, good choreography, cheesy beginning but with great cuts. (I noticed that they didn't do the fade-out breaks, but ended them with a cliffhanger of sorts. Very nice.) Maybe I'm reading too much into the story, or this was meant to be obvious and I'm just an idiot, but there seemed to be a bit of symbolism with Hawkgirl having to put Grundy down. Putting old demons to rest, perhaps? And, like someone suggested, what if she didn't kill him? Oooh, even better symbolism. Me likey.

Anyway, I liked Vixen, and moreover, I liked that all the heroes here weren't complete morons in the use of their powers. Vixen healing her broken arm? Clever. Gross, but clever. Oh, and the animation was so much better than last week's. All the movements were clean and fluid--the moment where Superman pulled himself over the railing of the bridge comes to mind for some reason.

Speaking of which, there were some good lines in here.

Lantern: "Are you okay?"
Superman: ">glare< Do I look like I'm okay?"

Vixen: "Let's just stand here and discuss this for a couple of hours, that way he's sure to get away!" (Nice little SuperFriends rip. I think.)

Anyway, I'm too tired to really think clearly, but none the less, I really liked this episode. If every episode were as good or better than this, I'd be a happy, happy fan. I'm easily amused, what can I say?

Oooh, a quarter!

>runs off to grab it< ;)

[Fone Bone]

You're missing the point. Put aside your Hawkgirl protectiveness and look at the scene more objectively. He wasn't trying to cheer her up. Obviously he or someone else tried that before and it didn't work. Dealing with someone who's been depressed for a long period of time is a real drag, I mean, seriously. It's even more life-sucking when it's a person you respect and/or care about, and when nothing else manages to work, sometimes you'll resort to harsh words in order to piss the person off; y'know, try to get them to stand up and defend themselves. Of course, it doesn't always work (as a matter of fact, I'd wager it usually backfires), but when it appears that no other option is open, you will take the risk eventually. Desperate times and all that.But it wasn't really established to my satisfaction that Aquaman and Hawkgirl were such great friends and had been hanging out for awhile. Didn't feel it.

What's with the Vixen-hate? If she wasn't going out with John and screwing over your GL/HG shipper love, would you hate her so much?No. I may be petty, but I'm man enough to admit it.

[Vixen]

What I didn't like:

-The beginning. That was probably the LONGEST beginning I've yet to see on JLU. Plus it was boring. They should of come up w/a better idea.

-WHY is Grundy always coming back from the dead??!! I'm really tired of seeing him, & since we didn't see his "death" in this one, unfortunately he might be coming back. (I hope not; this is one character that NEEDS to stay dead!) And the last thing I needed to see while eating was a zombie having a major slobber-fest.

-Why did we need to see AMAZO again? I'm sorry, but I feel that his presence in this episode was unneccessary. He really didn't help anybody.

-Hawkgirl: After seeing her again, I realize how much I didn't miss her. And why is it that her mace is the only thing that saves the day? (I know, it was explained in the cartoon.)

What I did like:

--Vixen: She had a brash arrogance about her that some might find annoying, but how many heroes/heroines have you seen that didn't display this quality? Her powers were pretty cool, too .(The best one was healing her broken arm.) I just hope that her character isn't relegated to the "jilted lover" thing, or that there isn't a "love triangle" between her, GL, & HG. Her character can be further developed through better means, IMHO.

-HG's "Hate the beard" line. I don't know what she's looking at, but GL NEEDS that beard. Speaking of lines, I like Supes', "Do I LOOK OK?!"

Can't wait to see "The Once & Future Thing, Part 1", & the scenes w/GA & BC (is that "The Cat & the Canary"?) Both look very interesting.

[Vagrant]

Vixen is the hot chick.

Nice to see Hawkgirl too.

This episode did not make me cringe.

I'm happy.

[Caswin]

Wow. No, one doesn't cover it. I say again: Wow. That last bit there was in retrospect stupid. This episode was not. Let's start with what -was- bad: Grundy coming back from the dead because some kids with a spellbook from the internet wanted power. And I think Shayera just had a bit too easy of a time with Grundy after the initial hit. But apart from that...

Gotta say it one more time. Wow. Great seeing Hawkgirl back again. People have been saying for a while she's one of the most beautiful women in the DCAU. I must say, I agree. And as usual, she's a great character. The fighting was excellent. It kinda had to be, it was most of the episode. Granted, the same could be said, to an even greater extent, about the last episode, but this slugfest had its share of plot to it. OK, so it was basically an excuse to bring Hawkgirl back... but I can't see it being done better. Better than XLR's return-of-the-Glorft episode. Anyway, fighting good, plot good, "This time it took me sixteen moves" good, Grundy good, total Hawkgirl ownage not so good, Hawkgirl herself... SQUEE! BIRD NOSE! *Hopes she keeps this "costume"* *Also hopes for the return of Katie*

[Grimlock]

I liked this episode, a few notes:

- A group of kids revived grundy?? Anyone else think that was kind of lame? I mean come on, they could at least have had some actual magic group revive grundy for a reason. This just seemed way too contrived for my liking.

- When GL used a hand to catch the bus...it's nice to see him using constructions, but there'd be no difference between hitting the front of a giant hand and hitting a wall. In fact, the hand, since it's probably stronger than concrete, would offer less resistance than a wall. That would make it even worse for the passengers as they slammed into the front of the bus. Remember, it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop. Much like it's not a building that would kill you from flying out of a bus, it's the sudden stop of the building (or in this case a giant hand). What they should have done (and i know this is nitpicking, but hey, JLU is a quality show, it should represent quality) is have GL grab the bus around the sides...that way you'd at least think he allowed for some deceleration.

- When superman came in for the first time and hit grundy, it didn't seem like a lot of the quick animation we've seen before. I just didn't get the feeling it was a split-second, really hard hit.
- Alright, twice this happened...some heroes were fighting, and other heroes just stood around talking. The first time was when fate showed aquaman and amazo the fight in fate's tower and they all just sat there staring. And the second time was when superman and GL went to fight grundy, and the rest just kind of stand there saying, "well what should we do?" This was right before vixen decided to claw the statue. I know in both cases they eventually went to help the other heroes, but you'd think there'd be more of a feeling of urgency.

- i love these double entendre episode titles..."the return", "wake the dead"...it's like hawkgirl has been dead to the JL, and she's awoken in this episode.

-Oh, and there is absolutely no way hawkgirl offed grundy, she obviously let him go, he'll be back. If she did kill him, i'll give everyone on the board $5.

[Allen CARR]

If she let Grundy go buddy, they would know about it. So would superman, you don't regain trust buy letting a rampageing beast go.

[Maxie Zeus]

Huh. So that's what SuperFriends would have looked like if they'd had a budget and Peggy Charren's head on a pike. Good action covering up a thin story. I like it.

Technically, it was a piece of bravura filmmaking. Solid, exciting, well-crafted fight sequences that showed invention and some wit--I think I've seen the "smash guy between two cars" gag before, but the execution was sharp. Pacing throughout was excellent, not only in the fight scenes but also in the character moments (GL's meeting Shayera) and in the emotional moment at the end with Grundy. Not a single dull moment, which is about 70% of what you want in an action cartoon.

Story? Not so strong. As an excuse for a bit of the old ultra-violence, it works just fine, so I'm not gonna complain. But the dramatic bits never jelled. What is the story about? I suppose it's about Shayera figuring out what she's supposed to do with herself--that's the issue that gets talked about early on and that's what's apparently settled by the "welcome back" bits at the end. But why is this incident the catalyzing one? Sure, she's got a "history" with Grundy, but she's got a "history" with a lot of people. There's nothing that really ties the two characters together. Shayera's "crime" (or whatever you want to call it) was treason--that's not Grundy's. Grundy, it is sometimes suggested, is misunderstood; but Shayera is understood all too well by her former teammates. About the only thing that connects them is that they are "alienated" from the rest of the world. Well, take a ticket, sister; just about everyone in the Justice League has similar alienation issues, if they care to think about them.

It's supposed to be a powerful moment when she finally splatters his brains against the wall. (If that's what she does: Anyone else smell a fakeout? EDIT: Yes, Grimlock did too.) What power it has comes from the technical execution: the framing, the editing, the acting (by the animators, the actors, and the grunting machine). But's a cold and manipulative power, because there's no real sense of connection between Shayera and Grundy, and so no sense that something terrible is happening inside Shayera as she does it. Earlier, she references "Old Yeller." But this is a dodge and a con in order to up the emotional ante of what comes next. Old Yeller was a faithful and beloved companion, and an innocent--that's why the story tears up anyone who hears it like wet Kleenex. But that's not Grundy. Worse, when you have to telegraph an emotional scene by comparing it to another story. About the best hypothesis I can come up with is that it is Shayera's coming to terms with the fact that she is essentially a destroyer, even of the things she is supposed to care about. That's fine; that works if you feel that connection between her and Grundy. I didn't, and to drag poor Grundy out of his grave for this is to do him dirty twice over.

I wish I could say something constructive--some suggestion about how the story could have been strengthened. But, as I say, I'm mostly unsure of what the story was trying to accomplish. Which makes it very hard to come up with anything. :(

Interesting, bitter foreshadowing at the end, unless I miss my guess. I don't wanna be a Cassandra, but I have a foreboding sense that the League is going to be on the receiving end of some Justice Lord-style popular contempt and hatred before this series is over.


I think I'd give this episode more than a 3/5 if it wasn't for the fact that they ruined the opening of the episode with really unnecessary humor. They're terrible at humor. I mean the best you can do is "I got it off the internet"? The Fairly Oddparents did that joke three years ago. Stop going for the easy kill and come up with something clever.

I thought the jokes were better than usual in this one. "Internet" was old, but I did like the "underwear" gag.

[Supremus]

Maybe it's just me, but I always find McDuffie's episodes to be a little bit all over the place. It started off OK with Grundy's scary return and Hawkgirl being depressed at Camp Fate, but in the end there were just too many different things going on, and none of them, except the battle with Grundy, were properly explored.

Most annoyingly, as was the case with The Terror Beyond, the emotional stuff between Hawkgirl and Grundy failed to connect because it wasn't properly set up. Maybe some people are happy to fill in their own emotional blanks after a good battle, and it was a good battle, but it just made the episode feel a little bit empty to me.

Still, the animation/action was good, and Vixen was an interesting new character, so it wasn't a total disaster. It just seems like we have had a trillion of these big battles already, and this wasn't necessarily the best one. Had it been a JL season 1 episode, it would have gotten 4 stars, but 3 years later it only gets a generous 3.

... Ah, what the heck, it's almost Christmas. 3.5 stars :p

[BillA1]

This, along with “For the Man who has Everything,” were the breakout episodes to me for JLU this season. The visuals were excellent and the writing was typical Dwayne McDuffie. It was real good. It doesn’t bother me a bit that all that I like about Shayera Hol has come to me by way of Mr. McDuffie. I chalk that up as being a good thing.

The best visual:

Shayera “hunting” Grundy in the sewer. From the moment she goes in the sewer to the moment she comes out and turns her mace off – just well done.

The worst visual:

GL pacing above the sewer like an expectant father outside the delivery room. I know what was meant to be conveyed and I got it, but it just didn’t look right. It looked choppy, rushed, just not right to me.

Best lines:

Pretty Polly
Do I look like I’m okay?

I enjoyed this episode a lot and it was great to see Vixen do something besides look like a terrified passenger on a bus as she did in “Dark Heart.” Well done, gentlemen.

Bill:cool:

[b.t.]

I noticed and all I have to say, too much catering to the fanboys. Also, I liked the teasers in the old credits.

Mister Intensity

going to a standardized title sequence had absolutely NOTHING to do with "catering to fanboys". it had EVERYTHING to do with the fact that it's EXTREMELY difficult to find spectacular but "non-spoilerific" shots for each 22-minute cartoon.

hey, i kinda liked the teaser titles myself, and thought we did a pretty good job of not spoiling important plot points for the most part, so we basically disregarded the fan complaints about 'em. (i mean, really, they're always gonna find SOMETHING to complain about...and if we actually made creative decisions based on trying to please the fans, we'd wind up in the loony bin faster than you can say "where's wally?"). the "old school" SPACE: 1999-esque title sequence seemed like a neat idea at the time, but right out of the gate, cutting the "initiation" teaser was bloody hard, and then the one for "ftmwhe" was even HARDER. it just became a huge pain in the ass. putting the show together is hard enough, week in/week out, without having to spend several extra hours putting together what amounts to a brand-new title sequence each episode. going to a standardized title sequence makes it one less thing we have to sweat about.

we had always planned on permanently inserting the shayera "portrait" shot into the title sequence in this ep ANYWAY, so it seemed like as good a time as any to debut the "permanent/ standardized" titles.

the teaser END-titles are staying, though, as per cn's request.

[Gl_link]

Well What did you guys think of the appearence of hulk, I mean Grundy on JlU?
Personaly I thought it was very well done. I loved Vixen in here (although she was alittle thick), And Aquaman proved that he wasent just a badass and his power to talk to fish was very usefull. And If you missed it this next part will need to be Highlighted to read. I was also Impressed with the way the writers dealt with Hawkgirl in here. The end of this one was done extreemly well.
when it was revealed that Hawkgirl had to take out grundy

And thats all I have to say

[Grimlock]

Anyone else smell a fakeout? EDIT: Yes, Grimlock did too.)
Thanks for the props, Maxie ;).

[Red]

Random Thought Time

Whoo Grundy! Timm did a great job with the grunts, too bad Hamill wasnt there to talk :(

Nice to see the voting cleared up from Starcrossed.

Best Line of 2004 in DCAU..goes to!

"Hate The Beard"

Wow, that was nice.

My favorite episode The Terror Beyond was well executed, and probably the best this season.

Red Giant's Random Thought Review Gives it a 5...out of 5... [/Morgan Webb]

[b.t.]

-Oh, and there is absolutely no way hawkgirl offed grundy, she obviously let him go, he'll be back. If she did kill him, i'll give everyone on the board $5.

hope you're loaded, 'cuz she DID kill him. killed him good. grundy ain't comin' back. ever.

no, really, i mean it! this time, he's staying dead. as a doornail. this is an ex-zombie.

[90'sCartoonMan]

The scarey thing is a couple months ago I had a dream where Solomon Grundy broke into my dorm room. He didn't try to crush my head or anything.

Although the plot was pretty basic, there were a lot of things I liked in this episode. First and foremost, Gina Torres as Vixen is brilliant. She's an awesome actress and should've had a bigger role in the Matrix movies. Granted, I wouldn't have liked the Vixen character as much if she wasn't in a recent Birds of Prey story, but she was a lot of fun, and I'm looking forward to seeing her again.

Aquaman would've felt out of place, but I like how JL/U builds relationships with characters and plots. We have Aquaman because this is an episode where Shayera (living with Dr. Fate) deals with Grundy, a sequel to "Terror Beyond". Kind of like how Supergirl and Green Arrow are teamed up again in "Fearful Symmetry".

I wonder if Shayera is going to get a new name/costume. She said she doesn't feel like Hawkgirl anymore, and I kind of don't want her to go back to it. But the way she looks in the intro is kinda weird (but it was cool to see her). So she beats Batman in chess? No wonder he voted her out of the League.

Loved the actual fighting. Grundy's blows looked like they hurt, and Green Lantern made a hand. Woo-hoo!

Liked Dr. Fate referring to the android as "Amazo" (he really does want to make him more human), but didn't like the way he pronounced "Grondy".

I know this is hardly proof, but when Shayera came back from her encounter with Grundy, they showed her mace, nice and clean. Doesn't look like it just delivered a fatal blow to me. Hmmmmm.

And Jade_GL? I had the exact same thought about the JSA villain when I saw the preview. The Green Arrow/Black Canary thing is my most anticipated character interaction of all of JLU.

[Grimlock]

If she let Grundy go buddy, they would know about it. So would superman, you don't regain trust buy letting a rampageing beast go.It's called the element of surprise. I've seen way too many cartoons and movies to know that when a hero has to make a choice, they ALWAYS make the one that is the right one. And although killing grundy might prevent a ton of other people's deaths (that was superman and aquaman's reasoning), i am sure hawkgirl found a way to keep grundy from surfacing for some specified amount of time...let's say until...oh, how about the next episode that features grundy :).

It'll happen, trust me.

[Grimlock]

hope you're loaded, 'cuz she DID kill him. killed him good. grundy ain't comin' back. ever.

no, really, i mean it! this time, he's staying dead. as a doornail. this is an ex-zombie.
Haha, i believe you told us he was really dead last time as well, b.t.

It's nice though, gives us a bit of the comic book feeling, people coming back from the dead and whatnot.

Tell you what, when JLU is all said and done for (which i hope never happens, you could go another 5 season at LEAST, right? ;)), THEN i'll pay out, because i still think he's coming back :).

[Red]

hope you're loaded, 'cuz she DID kill him. killed him good. grundy ain't comin' back. ever.

no, really, i mean it! this time, he's staying dead. as a doornail. this is an ex-zombie. Riiiiiiiiiiight. Well he should...as long as Mark H. is by his side ;) [No offense to you Timm, we just need a talking Zombie :p]

[ryeck]

Really well done. I thought that "Wake the Dead" ranks right up there with "The Return" and FTMWHE as my top JLU episodes. I wasn't bothered by the fact that the college kids inadvertantly woke up Grundy with their "magic", as they admited they didn't really know what they were doing.
Other points:
*Superman was again used well, even though he took quite the beating from Grundy.
*Always good to see Dr. Fate. I have enjoyed Fate's appearances since STAS, and he is a character I want to read up on.
*Shayera is still gorgeous (hey, I'm partial to redheads). I felt for her and her confusion over her purpose in life, I think many of us can relate to at one time or another.
*Glad to see Clark was for her staying with the League, and GL abstained.
*Vixen was alright, but one shot of her showed an awful lot of cleavage (not that I'm complaining, but kids are watching this as well).
*Glad that Amazo teleported itself light years away. It's too convienent to solve every possible problem with it around, and I don't really want to see Amazo come back any time soon.
*NO BATMAN! It always good when he isn't involved. The guy gets way too much air time for my tastes.

A nice break change of pace from the last two episodes, though the story could have been expanded on more with more time, but such is life in a 30 minute format.

5 stars out of 5.

[Crimson]

I liked this episode; it's nice to be able to say that about this season for a change. Whether or not I loved the episode will be determined by subsequent viewings.

My biggest complaint is that this episode's priorities seemed out-of-whack. Too much time was squandered on things unnecessary, while more important matters were underplayed or all but ignored. The action scenes were necessary; this is an action show, after all. But other scenes, particularly those with AMAZO, were irrelevant. His presence served no real purpose, and a convoluted explanation was required to justify is ineffectiveness against Grundy. Would have been much easier to have just not used him in the episode, which could have freed up precious time for more important matters.

Vixen now ranks as only the 3rd character introduced by this new format that I found interesting (the others being Captain Atom and Green Arrow.) I liked the portrayal of her powers, and I liked her personality -- a heady blend of brash, brave and foolhardy.

[GWOtaku]

Didn't know this was on tonight, thought that Bionicle thing knocked it off the schedule. JLU episodes reair at somepoint, right? When is that?

[b.t.]

Haha, i believe you told us he was really dead last time as well, b.t.


Tell you what, when JLU is all said and done for (which i hope never happens, you could go another 5 season at LEAST, right? ;)), THEN i'll pay out, because i still think he's coming back :).

well, that sounds fair (start saving up, though...i'm just sayin'). yeah, we normally like to keep our dead guys dead, and really really REALLY had no intention of ever bringing "grondy" (personally, i LOVE how oded pronounces his name!) back from the grave. we did it this one time because (a) we thought it would be a kickass way to end shayera's exile, and (b) it brings him back in a way that doesn't in any way render his death in "terror beyond" meaningless.

i can't see any good reason to ever bring him back again, so seriously, THIS dirt-nap's stickin'.

also (and this goes to maxie as well), if you're thinking we (AND shayera) are pulling a fake-out, that she DIDN'T kill him for some reason, the staging, the music, her facial expression, EVERYTHING says otherwise. and why WOULDN'T she kill him, anyway? not only is he extremely dangerous in his current incarnation, but he's also suffering. clearly, killin's the best thing for him.

[pidget bill]

OMG w000000T teh RAWK HAWK Gr1L ti$ Bakk!!11!. :sweat: Ok, seriously. a great episode. Fights were all good, well animated. Grundy was simply badass if not a bit Overpowered eh? It's nice having Hawkgirl back. Wonder how things will turn out with her now in future episodes. Vixen seemed like a cool character with some intresting powers. And Seems Dr. Fate has nice lil group of his own doesn't he?

Now Amazo. Well, looks like he suffered from the "Mewtwo Returns" syndrome. Take originally God-like character (Mewtwo) and weaken him severely :shrug: . I know it was the only way to get him out of the picture so Hawkgirl gets her spotlight, but they could of pulled it off a little better IMO.

Good continunuity with Starcrossed (I just knew she would've got voted to stay). Now with the conclusion with Grundy, well since we didn't actually see what Hawkgirl did down there, I wonder if we'll get a return appearence. aww hell I know we probably will. You just can't ever seem keep a Zombie down.

A lil rushed, but it still kept my intrest. 5 stars

[Storm]

For the past two week I missed JLU so I was surprised I was able to catch it and I liked what I say. I don't think I would have enjoyed this episode (which was very awesome by the way) as much if it wasn't for Vixen, who has now been donned one of my favorite superheroines. I was so proud to see a black female character kick some ass. To be frank the only black superheroine who've made a major impact on television and comics is Ororo Munroe a.k.a. Storm so to see Vixen portrayed w/ confidence and with such a brash and wonderful personality was great. Her introduction and presence was refreshing to see. Great job on that Mr. Timm.

It was great to see Hawkgirl again however I'm happy to see John moving on with the ever-so sassy Vixen. Sorry Fone Bone.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've notice there are a few characters being portrayed by former Jossverse actors. Firefly's Gina Torres (Zoe) did an excellent job as Vixen and next season Amy Acker (Fred/Illyria) will be voicing Huntress along side with Morena Baccarin (Inara) as Black Canary. Any more Jossverse actors portraying some of our favorite heroes? James Marsters would rock!

Great episode. Starting a Vixen web fanlisting right now, lol.


- Fray

[Maxie Zeus]

also (and this goes to maxie as well), if you're thinking we (AND shayera) are pulling a fake-out, that she DIDN'T kill him for some reason, the staging, the music, her facial expression, EVERYTHING says otherwise. and why WOULDN'T she kill him, anyway? not only is he extremely dangerous in his current incarnation, but he's also suffering. clearly, killin's the best thing for him.

All that makes sense, and yeah, the scene of her standing over him was very powerfully done, and it absolutely suggested it was all going to be over for Grundy. It was her subsequent line, that it was all over or that he wasn't coming back, or whatever she said, that took me aback. Given how emotional she was supposed to be about it, I would have expected a rawer, more volcanic reaction to the question: "Yeah, I splattered his brains all over the sewer. What do you want me to say?!" Her actual answer, by comparison, sounded a bit like a dodge, and that's what set me wondering.

Also, like Grimlock, I'm occasionally cynical about these kind of things. :shrug:

But I'm glad I didn't offer to cover part of Grimlock's expenses ... ;)

[Doomsday]

I never get tired of seeing this episode. Saw it when it aired on YTV. Thanks bt for clearing that Hawkgirl DID kill Grundy, I been wondering that myself. I'll try to get the main things out of this episode on how most of it been said already. Intro was the weakest part but cool how those kids died. The new beginning is nice, Flash IS there and nice Hawkgirl picture. I'll miss the custom intros but it makes sense why they have so stop doing it. Vixen is a cool character, just like 50 more characters left to learn about. The flying cop car for some reason seamed funny to me. Fights were much better than any of episode, maybe not FTMWHE. Superman make his best enterence EVER. Cool intro for Aquaman too. AMAZO had a nice roll in the episode without taking the spotlight. Nice seeing Dr. Fate and the others again. I really am missing the Flash but I can't blame the episode for that, just the season. Nice seeing GL getting worried about Hawkgirl, and GL did forgive Hawkgirl by the end of Starcrossed, not in this episode. He loves her, no kidding he be acting like he did. Nice ending with them walking to the sun. Also great some bt with the grunts and the whole episode itself. I'm surpise that people rates low are rating high, like Dr Flask, and people who gives out 5 on even the bad episodes gives this a 3.5, Phantasm but I guess that because Batman is not in the episode which is a weak reason to vote that way but whatever. A brilliant episode and I hope the last two this season will be just as good, if possible better. *****.

[Rebis]

i can't see any good reason to ever bring him back again, so seriously, THIS dirt-nap's stickin'.Aw, that's too bad. I'd love to hear the wonderful voice actor who played Grundy deliver some more unearthly snarling and howling. He sent chills down my spine.

Seriously, for me, tonight's episode was the ultimate distillation of Solomon Grundy's character ... ever. In any medium. Brother's unbeatable. Mindless. Filled with misery and menace. And maybe it was the gin, but I was standing on my sofa hooping and hollering throughout the battle. Felt like Saturday morning.

And Vixen. Dayum. Let's see some more of her. Excellent look. Phenomenal powers. Sharp dialogue. And some more color on the team. Make it a double.

[EJill34]

the teaser END-titles are staying, though, as per cn's request.
That's actually kind of ironic considering they didn't even air the end-title teasers until "Greatest Story Never Told" and those were for "FTMWHE," "Hawk and Dove," and "Fearful Symmetry" which had all been aired by that time. Whatever...I'll never understand CN.

Speaking of teasers, the ones for this episode were just awesome. I don't think I can wait a whole month for "Once and Future Thing."

[b.t.]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've notice there are a few characters being portrayed by former Jossverse actors. Firefly's Gina Torres (Zoe) did an excellent job as Vixen and next season Amy Acker (Fred/Illyria) will be voicing Huntress along side with Morena Baccarin (Inara) as Black Canary. Any more Jossverse actors portraying some of our favorite heroes? James Marsters would rock!

see the "jlu rumor thread, part 4" for casting info...as for james marsters, we tried several times this past season to get him on JLU, came REAL close once, but his ANGEL shooting schedule kept getting in the way....maybe next season....

[Storm]

see the "season 4 rumor" thread for casting info...as for james marsters, we tried several times this past season to get him on JLU, came REAL close once, but his ANGEL shooting schedule kept getting in the way....maybe next season....
Darn it! Atleast you guys tried. I have a few more suggestion: Sarah Michelle Gellar (I doubt it w/ her schedule but she's done animation before), who was my original pick as Black Canary's voice, Emma Caulfield, and Nicholas Brendon. A fan can dream can't he?

:checks S4 Rumor thread now:


- Fray

[DLM]

This is my favorite JLU episode.
Five stars.

Nuff said.

[Grimlock]

well, that sounds fair (start saving up, though...i'm just sayin'). yeah, we normally like to keep our dead guys dead, and really really REALLY had no intention of ever bringing "grondy" (personally, i LOVE how oded pronounces his name!) back from the grave.
Yeah, i could have SWORN he said "grondy", and i was thinking, "that's weird," but fate does have that slight accent in JLU which i never knew had from the comics.



we did it this one time because (a) we thought it would be a kickass way to end shayera's exile, and (b) it brings him back in a way that doesn't in any way render his death in "terror beyond" meaningless.
It was a very appropriate way to bring shayera back, seeing as she played a huge role in the episode of his death.

But i have to say, bringing him back by a bunch of kids playing around with magic...i felt that cheapened his death a little bit. But hey, there's a reason you guys are calling the shots and i'm not.



i can't see any good reason to ever bring him back again, so seriously, THIS dirt-nap's stickin'.
Alright, then perhaps i'll take your word for it, but if you bring him back, you're going to get a huge "i told you so" :).



also (and this goes to maxie as well), if you're thinking we (AND shayera) are pulling a fake-out, that she DIDN'T kill him for some reason, the staging, the music, her facial expression, EVERYTHING says otherwise. and why WOULDN'T she kill him, anyway? not only is he extremely dangerous in his current incarnation, but he's also suffering. clearly, killin's the best thing for him.
Yeah, i guess all that stuff does add up, but doesn't she say something to the effect of "it's done" or "it's over" or something? Which would lead me to believe she didn't kill him, otherwise she could have said, "i killed him." Now i know there's something to be said for indirect ways of saying things, but yeah, that's why i thought she might not have killed him.

Plus, come on, she's a good guy, do the good guys EVER kill the bad guys??

And i know it's happened in your universe before, i was just holding out hope Shayera hadn't crossed into that realm.

[karasu]

Vixen rocks so hard. I hope she's feautured in another episode. I Now I really can't wait to see the Black Canary in action. These guys are so good with destruction! When people crash into buildings and the like the buildings actually look... heavy. And humongous. Greaaaaaaaaaaat stuff.

[Cobblepot1982]

THIS is the crowd that normally bashes The Batman? Look, here's my piece on it- it had potential....but they sadly focused it more on Grundy than on Hawkgirl...and that pretty much killed it for me. I was really hoping there was more to Grundy's power than just the spell from the Necronomicon.

[Temple Fugate]

I got over the whole "HAWKGIRL'S BACK WOOOOOOO!!!!" a few weeks ago, but re-watching this ep (in W I D E S C R E E N this time. WOOOOOOOOO!!!!) I'm still loving it.

I got to like Grundy's character with "The Terror Beyond," so it was a bit sad to see the character sapped of his personality like this. But for the purposes of the story and considering what was happening to him, it's perfectly acceptable. The powering-down of Superman, while very "season one"-ish, was also acceptable. And I don't care who hates it, those dweebs in the teaser were awesome. Plus they all died (come on, they must have run into Grundy in the hallway.) so it's cool.

That's another thing...two episodes in a row we've gotten a very strong impression that random characters have died. In "Dark Heart" it was the male climber (his shoe was a giveaway), and this time we're a nanosecond from seeing Grundy's fist squeeze that dude's head in like an orange. This is a very important thing to note; that even though the Justice League always saves the day, they can't prevent EVERYONE from dying. I think this is something the Leaguers themselves should point out in the future (a-la JLA's recent story arc "Pain of the Gods"), as long as the BS'n'P sign off on the whole "death" thing, and considering JL's track record for pushing the envelope as far as CN's censors goes, it's probably not a problem.

AMAZO is awesome (and his name even got mentioned by Fate) and should never be shown in JLU ever again. Why? He's just too good. Finding a reason to keep him out of every situation will just get too contrived. This time it was chaos magic, next time? Someone with immunity to gold-colored objects? :p Regardless, I loved him in this ep. The chess sequence was actually a bit frightening. (Aquaman's visible reaction to the telekenesis and "New game?" was perfect.)

Someone before complained about how GL went soft on Shayera after his coldness towards her at the end of "Starcrossed." I think this is just an indication that time has healed his wounds and he's moved on with his personal life--Vixen can probably attest to that. I liked the added dimensionality we got in certain shots; occasional pans over to Vixen as she silently watches GL having more concern for Shayera than her. And finding out he never voted either way for her dismissal shows that, even after betrayal, he still has deep feelings for her.

One last note: Despite the GL/Shayera spotlight, Superman had a great moment of his own with the line "I believe in second chances. I believe in redemption." A nice throwback to his own betrayal in "Legacy" Parts I & II.

Justice League 3x11: "Wake the Dead" - ****

So wait...is the next episode "The Once and Future Thing" Part I, or "Double Date?" I thought the air order got switched due to production problems?

[Anon190]

"Wake the Dead" made me cry, out of pure emotional response.

I couldn't offer any real review, seeing as I'm a) heavily biased (not that is stopped me giving a review anywhere else, but 'ey, who cares), and 2) it would probably be composed of Fangirl squeals anyway.

Yes, it's a-2.

Vixen = DEATH. She just doesn't have the same chemistry with John that Shayera has. It's honestly just not there. And no, I am not just saying this because I'm a rabid HGxGL shipper. Really. I'm serious!

I missed Shayera - I'm so happy she's back. ^^

[b.t.]

AMAZO is awesome (and his name even got mentioned by Fate) and should never be shown in JLU ever again.

several episodes from now:

The JLU are fighting yet another "Omega Level" menace. Heroes are dropping like flies. J'onn sends in the reserves, but it's no go! Even Shayera's magic deus ex mace-ina is useless! Earth is doomed!!!

SMASH-CUT TO:

The far reaches of space. A lonely golden figure sits on a floating asteroid.

AMAZO:
Hmmm, I wonder if they've gotten rid of Grundy yet?

[DLM]

Plot? Who cares. This was not a plot episode. This was a character driven episode, and judged by that standard it was a pure triumph.

Hawkgirl: this was about her fundamental identity. A hero must have a moral core and the events of Starcrossed destroyed hers. Now we see the aftermath. Every identity she has had, every role she has taken in life has been stripped and broken at this point. Using her bond with the simpleton Grundy, a creature who also is tortured by his missing identity, as the event that would springboard her into rebuilding herself is pure genius.

Superman: Hardcore Superman fans should LOVE this episode. He is portrayed as weaker in the end than the supercharged Grundy, but thats not bad, dealing with magic has never been his strongest suit :). No, what Supes fans should love about this episode is that he plays the role of the redeemer in this episode. At the end of Starcrossed there was every reason to ditch HG from the Leauge, and I can't blame WW or Bats for wanting her gone. But Superman is portrayed as a true icon here. He beleives in forgiving a friend, and whether HG deserved it or not, simply by choosing to stand by her Supes probably did more to motivate towards becoming a hero again than anything else would.

Aquaman: Arthur got some great development in this episode. He was arrogant, sexist, and a jerk towards HG. You know what? It was the calculated action of a leader in the mold of a warrior-king. He saw HG as a great warrior, and he was trying to get her angry, trying to motivate the troops, get the blood flowing, anything but the crippling stagnation she was in. It didn't work but it shows a real leadership side of Aquaman.

GL: He's moving on. He's a guy on the rebound. He's got a freakin supermodel as his new squeeze. But suddenly his old flame suddenly reappears unexpectedly and he finds he isn't as over her as he thought. Gold!

Grundy: He was supposedly just a rage filled shell but in the end, we see the tiniest gimmer of the old Grundy when he peacefully and willingly lowers hes head for HG's final blow. Beautiful! And I can't beleive anyone doesn't beleive HG did the deed there. Without that the whole episode is pointless.

[Sue]

Nice! I can't really add anything new in terms of praise, but this is one of the best episodes of the season. It's great to have Hawkgirl back in action, but it's strange not seeing that hot headed, ass-kicking side of her. I'm not complaining, though; having her go from being a firecracker to her current state is a stroke of good writing. It's just odd seeing that kind of change in such a person. Still, I hope she and Aquaman hang out more often.

What can I say? Vixen rocked! Her JLU look is a big improvement over her original appearance in the comics, particularly her Flock of Seaguls hair. Though I haven't been much of a GL/HG "shipper," seeing John with another woman took some getting used to. Still, as Merlin Missy suggested, I hope Vixen and HG become friends. Also, I can't wait to see the next episodes. The GA/Black Canary sequences looked neat, as did the Old West and Roulette scenes (being the JSA fan I am, I'm really psyched about that one) :cool:

[Paul_Cousins]

This was an okay episode 7 out of 10 because the plot did not mesh quite right, but the solid action scenes, the good quote (Superman, "Humor me") and the character developement carried this episode.

The chess scenes were good too.

And at least we now know what the vote went in "Starcrossed".

We also know Amazo has a weakness to chaos magic, so he's chowmeat if he ever meets an Old One (with their choas magic), unless he has some Thangarians with their Nth metal anti-magic technology.

Amazo lose to Old Ones (chaos magic, by it's nature it cannot be adapted to easily, might take took long for Amazo to evolve to win)
Old Ones lose to Thangarians (Nth metal anti-magic technology)
Thangarians lose to Amazo (evolving technology).

Finally, Dr. Fate putting Hawkgirl's Nth metal mace in a 'pocket dimension' makes 'so much sense'... I wonder if he keeps 'mallets' in there also. ;)

[Batman49]

This episode was awesome. I love the scene in Dr. Fate's tower and the return of "chica halcón" was handled well. I'll miss the teaser openings but I understand that they just add more time in producing an episode. I can sympathize. Is it me or was Oded Fehr another in a long line of great casting? I like that he's taken over the role of Dr. Fate, he just fits.

[A.J]

Am I the only one who noticed that Flash is missing from the opening? It's official, Flash is no longer a main member of the team. He'll probably never appear in an episode again. This sucks.

How much Drama! Dude he will come back...be patient!

[Revelator]

It's natural for fans to have heated reactions, which perhaps explains why the previous few episodes get overslagged while "The Return" and "Wake the Dead" get overrated.
The dialogue seemed a bit clunky this time, which is suprising given Bruce Timm's co-story credit, since he wrote the best lines in "Twilight." Shayera's big speech felt a bit flat and verbose, and the "I know what you want, what you need" line didn't seem commensurate to the drama of the occasion. And surely she could have uttered a stronger line after killing Grundy.
McDuffie's episodes sometimes seem baggy and ill-organized in structure, and WTD certainly felt that way. I think there were better ways of bringing back Hawkgirl rather than bringing back Grundy and thereby ensuring lots of endless fight scenes, which, despite everyone saying how good they were, proved a bit tedious. Furthermore, Amazo was rather wasted, and his exit proved over-hasty and badly conceived--had this episode undergone a rewrite (which would have been for the best) he should have simply been written out as absent.
Nothing in the fight scenes, well done as they were, really grabbed my interest--I'm rather tired of seeing Superman get endlessly pounded as a way of telling us how powerful the villain of the week is, though Aquaman had his greatest moment of coolness when standing unflappable on that giant rising octopus (though no Octopus is that big in real life, and even if they were the size of a giant squid they still couldn't have held up a suspension bridge--perhaps a fleet of whales of squid might have worked better).
The most interesting parts of this episode? Aquaman acting like the glorious jerk he really is, Shayera reducing John to surprised sheepishness by her reappearance, Vixen and her strutting, and Shayera getting attacked by the resentful Earthlings for her past crimes.

[nicklyaine]

I tip my cap to Green Lantern; he's had some gorgeous women on his arm: first Katma, then Shayera, and now Vixen. He's officially displaced Flash and Batman's alter ego Bruce Wayne as the League's designated Ladies Man. Funny though that Vixen is the only human of the three. Also feel a little sorry for him. He's been in an emotional funk since Hawkgirl left, and just when he tries to move on with his life, Hawkgirl comes back. John's life has suddenly become far more interesting.

[Knight]

Fantastic ep

- Nice animation and fights scenes
-The Return of Hawkgirl
-More Aquaman. This guy is so much better in his animated form than the comics that its funny.
-Superman going at it with a more powerful Grundy. You could tell the guy was so used to kicking Grundys butt that he was shocked by his newfound power up.
- Good introduction to Vixen and really cool power affects. Nice revealing outfit too.She had a lot of bravodo something John Stewart seems to like in women.:D
-John Stewart in pimp gear cant beat that.
- Amazo he is very interesting to me and I love his voice but he is overly powerful thus its hard to come up with challenges for this guy. However did manage to expend one this ep.

5 stars overall from me.

[Lord Sidious]

Well since A.M.A.Z.O. absorbed Hawkgirl's powers and mace, shouldn't he have defeated Grundy in the beginning????

[Knight]

Well since A.M.A.Z.O. absorbed Hawkgirl's powers and mace, shouldn't he have defeated Grundy in the beginning????
Technically he should have been able to transform into nth metal and pound Grundy but I guess he wasnt fully aware of that elements properties.

Plus Grundy still had the ability to drain Amazo so there's no way to determine that even becoming Nth metal would have allowed him to get close enough to stop Grundy without him taking his energy at the same time. Grundy may have made Amazo to weak to pose a threat even with Nth metal or perhaps they may have stalemated at that point. Either way at that point in the battle no one new nth metal was Grundy's weakness.

I also noticed the kids in the episode were at Louisiana University. So is it safe to assume that Grundy was buried down south? I never had a impression of where he was layed to rest from The Terror Beyond but his ability to get to that dorm room so quickly leads me to beleive that to be true. So obviously the city that the League was batteling in was in Louisiana.

[Fone Bone]

hope you're loaded, 'cuz she DID kill him. killed him good. grundy ain't comin' back. ever.

no, really, i mean it! this time, he's staying dead. as a doornail. this is an ex-zombie.Listen if you don't bring Grundy back, fine, but at least have the decency to give Mark Hamill another voice-over roll. First the Joker and now Grundy? The second most talented DCAU VA just can't catch a break.:shrug:

[Fone Bone]

see the "season 4 rumor" thread for casting info...as for james marsters, we tried several times this past season to get him on JLU, came REAL close once, but his ANGEL shooting schedule kept getting in the way....maybe next season....James Marsters is a must. Seriously. Offer him some blood if you have to. (My kidney is reserved for you if you get the Batfamily and Batman's rogues to reappear). I'd also like another role for Alexis Denisof and Seth Green who haven't been in the DCAU since Batman Beyond.

You also tipped your hand that there WILL probably be a third JLU season. Good.

Fray, Merlin Missy has warmed me up to Vixen. I'll give her another chance when I rewatch the episode.

I love you Merlin Missy!

Edit: I'm giving Wake the Dead ****1/2. That seems a little high but I have to keep in mind I gave Dark Heart **** and that was a MUCH weaker episode so it's only fair. My only problems with this episode were my GL/HG shippage disillusionment and Grundy's death. Otherwise great.

[Master Moron]

Waitta minute he IS there. Both in the group shot and his solo show running. Who started this rumor? I hope it wasn't me. I just asked cause I wasn't sure.:o

Edit: I mean Flash. He's in the opening. Honest.

Really? I could have sworn that Hawkgirl took his place? If that's not the case, then whose place did she take? I mean, the rest of the intro seemed to play at the same pace as usual so I don't think they sped up the other 6 solo shots.

By the way, how exactly did a spell to increase strength raise a zombie from the dead?

[EJill34]

Really? I could have sworn that Hawkgirl took his place? If that's not the case, then whose place did she take? I mean, the rest of the intro seemed to play at the same pace as usual so I don't think they sped up the other 6 solo shots.I think they took out one of the shots from the actual episodes, but I could be wrong.


By the way, how exactly did a spell to increase strength raise a zombie from the dead?
At the beginning you see one of the nerds step out of the circle, so I'm assuming that it caused unrest in Grundy. The spell was probably supposed to put Grundy under the control of the nerds, therefore making them more powerful, but when one of them broke the circle it disrupted the spell.

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

hope you're loaded, 'cuz she DID kill him. killed him good. grundy ain't comin' back. ever.

no, really, i mean it! this time, he's staying dead. as a doornail. this is an ex-zombie.
I suppose that's for the best I hope. But if anything make sure to give Mark Hamill another job. I mean with the Joker off-limits for the time-being and Grundy dead for good. It looks like his work in the DCAU is truly over. :(

Anyway I have to compliment on your grunting work in this episode. It I didn't know otherwise I would've thought it was Mark doing the grunting. Seriously you sounded exactly like him!

[Master Moron]

Darn it! Atleast you guys tried. I have a few more suggestion: Sarah Michelle Gellar (I doubt it w/ her schedule but she's done animation before), who was my original pick as Black Canary's voice, Emma Caulfield, and Nicholas Brendon. A fan can dream can't he?

:checks S4 Rumor thread now:


- Fray

Sarah Michelle won't even be in the Buffy cartoon and you expect her to do a voice in Justice League? Sorry, but Sarah Michelle Gellar has said many times that she doesn't want to do animation, and no, I don't know why.

[Stu]

Superman never made any money, saving the world from Solomon Grundy. :p

Did anyone see the stuff the geeks had in thier room? One of them looked like a Spider-Man poster, the other vaguely resembled a Hellboy statue.

One of the geeks was called Stu. Oy.

Overall, a fine episode. WF's reviews and grabs should be up soon.

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

Sarah Michelle won't even be in the Buffy cartoon and you expect her to do a voice in Justice League? Sorry, but Sarah Michelle Gellar has said many times that she doesn't want to do animation, and no, I don't know why.She did guest star on the Simpsons. Then again that might've been because it was The Simpsons

[Master Moron]

She did guest star on the Simpsons. Then again that might've been because it was The Simpsons

Oh yeah, and she was on King of the Hill. I don't know I guess she was just in a snobby mood when she said that.

[superprime]

This was a pretty good episode. It was great to see Hawkgirl again and see how the events in Starcrossed effected her. The fight with Grundy was really good and it was sad that Hawkgirl had to kill him in the end. Seeing Dr. Fate and Amazo again was good and Aquaman was awesome as usual. Vixen was pretty good but she just didn't click with me like some of the other new characters. All in all a good episode and it's nice to have Hawkgirl back.

[spidl]

I like the episode a lot. The character interaction was top notch. The character development really brought the episode. How many series would have the reporter scene at all? I think there would be a standard "We voted to keep ya" scene in most other shows. The reporters show that there is more than redemption than just beating up bad guys. That scene was only hinted at when STAS was ending.

Things I don't quite get is why no one went down the tunnel with HG to dispatch Grundy? If he is truly dead then why leave the door open. Plus, you've already had Superman's admission he couldn't see into the tunnel. I see the possibility of Grundy coming back in the future. Anyone catch the line how Grundy got out of the grave himself. It sorta alluded to the fact that geeks weren't the only reason he came back.

[Dr_Flask]

Well upon second viewing it seems like nitpicks but like JLU S1 this is to be expected. Still it the nitpicks are minor and doesn't stopped this episode for being the 2nd best episode this season, IMO.

NITPICKS:

1) Fans have said how underpowered the superheroes are and they aren't kidding. Now its seems the character themselves are thinking of their own teammates as weak also. Example: Supes says he take the big guns; Dr. Fate and Amazo to battle Grundy, but strangely he leaves out GL. WTF, is that about?! You have the bearer of the most powerful weapon in the universe and you don't considered him a BIG GUN?! I dunno if it was meant to implied that GL would stay back and protect the lesser powers but it came off weird.

2) Vixen rescuse(sp?) a kid from a falling buillding but strangely don't save anyone else. There no way a kid would be alone in what looked like a 10 story furnished building. It clearly didn't looked abandoned and wreck, so I think the animators and writers messed up big time on that.

Also some scene had Vixen and Supes knocking Grundy and themselves through cars, trucks, and building. Again are we supposed to believed everything was abandoned so quickly? I will fanwank that the city was evacuated but surely their was wanderers about. Hurricanes are a good example of people being warned to leaved and some staying behind to ride it out.

3) Vixen jealousy of Hawkgirl. While I don't blame her(HG is beautiful) it came off as forced and stupid. HG was paying no attention to the insults as was the other JL, so Vixen came off as bitter.

4) Supes been coming off kind of *****y lately and I dunno if that fits his character. From insulting the Ultimate speech to getting anal when asked was he alright. WTF, is his problem?!Its not like he was the only one getting smackdown.

5) Amazo being created as an invincible foe and then having to teleport away from the fight because of Grundy feeding off his powers were lame. They added one plot device(Amazo powers) and then topped it with another plot device to make him weak. I Amazo NEVERS returns because now he even more lame. Clearly the writers wrote themselves in the corner with character.

But like I said the nitpicks are minor and the episode was just too awesome!

THE BEST SCENES WERE:
1) GL pacing back n' forth and waiting to see if HG was gonna be alright. This is what counts for JL ; when character knowingly acts like someone would in real life.

2) Interaction was fantastic! With the chess game in the beginning with Aquaman and HG to GL line about Shayera still being part of the league and being welcome back anytime. Also, GL offering to kill Grundy for Shayera was a powerful scene! These scenes rocked!

3) The fight scenes could have been better, unfortunatly. We had too many of the same moves of heroes being thrown through building and GL only using 1 constructs. Still I like GL and Supes and even Vixen taking on Grundy. I like Grundy breaking Vixen arm and her using her powers to heal herself.

Though on hr format would have made the uber-fantastic, this was one of the best episodes this season, easily!

My grade 9/10.

[David the Joker]

Very interesting episode, even though the plot was thin. I really enjoyed all the characters interactions. It was fun that Amazo was finally called Amazo. The opening sequence with the college geeks was great especially Grundy's hand coming through the door. I swear that Bruce Timm voiced the geek with the glasses at the beginning of the episode.

[Lunchbox]

I found nothing spectacular about this espisode. The fight animation was a definate step-up from usual, but outside of that it seemed stiff. Quality grunts from Bruce Timm.

[firstbornalways]

This is really pitiful how the animated series has brought me to such a state. When Superman only screams for two seconds instead of stx he seems more poerful. Sad. Really. I know the stupid arguments, "if he was shown as powerful it would be just a superman show,' but honestly no it wouldn't. First punching Grundy through cars that could have civilians in them is not what he'd do, second if there was really going to be a decent fight to make you believe Superman didn't have a chance against him there could have been this.

Fight:

Vixen: He's taken our best. We cant beat him. He's too strong.

Superman: Speak for yourself.

Superman flies at Grundy and flys at super speed hitting him in such a blur it looks like multiple supermen are punching him. He knocks grundy across the city, and hits him in the face continually with a car. Grundy punches him away and runs towards Vixen. Suddenly an abandoned building lands on him. They look at the rubbage for several seconds and then it explodes into dust as Grundy smashes his path out.

Superman: Well guys its been fun.

The above scenario would have made it more beleivable that Superman couldn't win as it would have shown Superman doing SUPER things. The audience needs to know he can toss about ocean liners, easily lift planes. Hurl buildings (Please do this if he ever fights Captain Marvel. Its been a childhood dream for me to see Captain Marvel throw a building at Superman, and Superman instead of dodging it, just plows through it to tackle Captain Marvel). If Superman does what he does best then when he is knocked down I doubt I'd complain (provided the knocking down was beleivable). But thanks, B.T. for actually posting here as it shows you care about the fans opinions.

[karasu]

Just imagine that Superman used his telescopic vision to see that the cars were abandoned. The fact that the cars weren't moving and there wa sno reaction should tell you something. The press was all over so it's reasonable to assume that the area was generally abandoned. This isn't the only time a hero has saved a lone child from a building. Come on people.

[Fone Bone]

Really? I could have sworn that Hawkgirl took his place? If that's not the case, then whose place did she take? I mean, the rest of the intro seemed to play at the same pace as usual so I don't think they sped up the other 6 solo shots.

By the way, how exactly did a spell to increase strength raise a zombie from the dead?The intro plays at the same place through Green Lantern, Superman, Flash, and Batman's shots but then goes off five seconds later for Diana and Jonn Jonzz's shots after Hawkgirl. The heroes seen in the opening are (I hope I'm remembering this right) Green Lantern, Orion, Superman, The Atom, Black Canary, The Flash, the Question, Vigilante and Shining Knight, Batman, Captain Atom, Dr. Fate, Hawkgirl, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Red Tornado, Jonn Jonnz, Zatanna, Supergirl, and Green Arrow. Lex Luthor can be seen in the shot with the Atom.

[Batman91]

I liked this episode it had good animation and a good plot.Good episode,but I didn't find anything spectacular that you wouldn't find in any other JLU episode.

[Duke]

-Grundy staying dead. I'll believe it when I see it. After all, b.t. also said that Doomsday would never appear and that a JL series could never get off the ground. While he may not appear in the next season, or maybe even the one after that, I have a hard time beleiving that Grundy will never appear again until this universe closes forever.

-The way that Superman acted all chummy around Shayera just seemed wrong to me, particularly since he was the 2nd most vocal of the anti-Hawkgirl side of the League (next to Diana). True, he could see Shayera in a way nobody else could (though he was hypnotized, whereas Shayera wasn't). I dunno, it just didn't feel right to me.

[Duke Psychology]

second best episode of the season. plot was thin, but characterization was to the max.

[Style]

A little disappointed. I guess it's my fault really. I was kind of hoping for something up there with Starcrossed, and this wasn't. But it wasn't bad either. It was pretty good.

The last few days before it aired, I was starting to get a little worried. Stories that are written to back out of other stories tend not to be good. Example: Star Trek 3 spent a whole movie backing-out of the end of Star Trek 2. It diminished 2 and wasn't very good in it's own right. So, I was worried that this episode was simply trying to back out of the endings of "Teror Beyond" and "Starcrossed," (and it does, make no mistake.) But, Hawkgirl got some good character time and that's whats important to me.

b.t., I do believe you when you say that you have no intention of ever using Grundy again, but, even Vixen pointed out that since zombies are "dead," you can't really "kill" them with the full satisfaction that they will never come back again.

Speaking of Vixen, I geuss she's a sexy version of Beast boy or Shifter, who uses the attributes of animals without really transforming herself.

This episode is above me having to construct a series of riffs, except for maybe this one-

Aquaman: You suck!
Hawkgirl: I know.
Aquaman: uh... You suck because you're a girl!
Hawkgirl: Yeah yeah.
Aquaman: *gets desperate, goes onto the internet* Hey, lookie What I just found!
Hawkgirl: Please, not the (Un)official Hawkgirl complaint thread (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=122232&page=1&pp=20)again!
Aquaman: DUCKGIRL! WOO-OO!!!

[JohnStewart-GL]

I loved it. pretty much all has been said but i jus wanna say i really hope Vixen appears in more episodes i like her next to Hawkgirl shes my favorite female Leaguer now.

[RonDrakenfan17]

My biggest complaint is the Batman was not in this episode. He's my favorite character of the show when he's not in it I don't pay attention to the show. But I must admit the animation was topnotch in this episode and Halkgirl was pretty cool she was starting to become one of my favorite characters I sure hope she returns. The fight scenes were pretty cool as well, and it was nice to see the Green Lantern again he's been absent from the Unlimited show lately. And where's our alien friend he too has not been showing up, neither is the Flash and he was starting become one of my favorite characters as well. Too bad and yes it was ashamed that Superman got defeated he's starting to seem like a weakling lately. I'll give this episode a 7/6 because Batman was not in this episode which is not to my likening.

Note by Bird Boy: Small font = good.

[Fone Bone]

A little disappointed. I guess it's my fault really. I was kind of hoping for something up there with Starcrossed, and this wasn't. But it wasn't bad either. It was pretty good.

The last few days before it aired, I was starting to get a little worried. Stories that are written to back out of other stories tend not to be good. Example: Star Trek 3 spent a whole movie backing-out of the end of Star Trek 2. It diminished 2 and wasn't very good in it's own right. So, I was worried that this episode was simply trying to back out of the endings of "Teror Beyond" and "Starcrossed," (and it does, make no mistake.) But, Hawkgirl got some good character time and that's whats important to me.

b.t., I do believe you when you say that you have no intention of ever using Grundy again, but, even Vixen pointed out that since zombies are "dead," you can't really "kill" them with the full satisfaction that they will never come back again.

Speaking of Vixen, I geuss she's a sexy version of Beast boy or Shifter, who uses the attributes of animals without really transforming herself.

This episode is above me having to construct a series of riffs, except for maybe this one-

Aquaman: You suck!
Hawkgirl: I know.
Aquaman: uh... You suck because you're a girl!
Hawkgirl: Yeah yeah.
Aquaman: *gets desperate, goes onto the internet* Hey, lookie What I just found!
Hawkgirl: Please, not the (Un)official Hawkgirl complaint thread (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=122232&page=1&pp=20)again!
Aquaman: DUCKGIRL! WOO-OO!!!Seriously. That thread needs to be opened again in the worst way. It was the greatest thread ever till WT ruined it.:shrug:


My biggest complaint is the Batman was not in this episode. He's my favorite character of the show when he's not in it I don't pay attention to the show. But I must admit the animation was topnotch in this episode and Halkgirl was pretty cool she was starting to become one of my favorite characters I sure hope she returns. The fight scenes were pretty cool as well, and it was nice to see the Green Lantern again he's been absent from the Unlimited show lately. And where's our alien friend he too has not been showing up, neither is the Flash and he was starting become one of my favorite characters as well. Too bad and yes it was ashamed that Superman got defeated he's starting to seem like a weakling lately. I'll give this episode a 7/6 because Batman was not in this episode which is not to my likening.

Note by Bird Boy: Small font = good.What?

[Chosen Raven]

Hawkgirl(A.K.A. the Flying Mace) is back. Oh, joy. One of the greatest warriors ever? Don't think so(what skill it takes to swing a mace around!!). The fight with Grundy was alright. Merely alright. Making Amazo uber-powerful, then coming up with a silly reason for him being incapable of beating Grundy was lame. Supes is seaming like a wuss more and more. Hawkgirl beating Bats at chess? No freakin way.

*sigh*Another bland episode. Oh For the Man Who has Everything, where is your likeness?

[Phantasm]

My biggest complaint is the Batman was not in this episode. He's my favorite character of the show when he's not in it I don't pay attention to the show. But I must admit the animation was topnotch in this episode and Halkgirl was pretty cool she was starting to become one of my favorite characters I sure hope she returns. The fight scenes were pretty cool as well, and it was nice to see the Green Lantern again he's been absent from the Unlimited show lately. And where's our alien friend he too has not been showing up, neither is the Flash and he was starting become one of my favorite characters as well. Too bad and yes it was ashamed that Superman got defeated he's starting to seem like a weakling lately. I'll give this episode a 7/6 because Batman was not in this episode which is not to my likening.

Note by Bird Boy: Small font = good.
okay...LOL!
u know what u think like me, but even I wouldn't knock off stars for an episode based on Batman's absence!

LOL!!No really I wouldn't!:anime:

[Knight]

okay...LOL!
u know what u think like me, but even I wouldn't knock off stars for an episode based on Batman's absence!

LOL!!No really I wouldn't!:anime:
You mean there is someone more Batman obsessive than you Phantasm. Thats frightning.:eek:


Hawkgirl(A.K.A. the Flying Mace) is back. Oh, joy. One of the greatest warriors ever? I believe the word Aquaman said was "fieriest" not greatest and being a warrior isn't all about skill. Its also about battle experience, aggressiveness and energy. All of which Shayera has.

[Dens Maris]

Man, did I love the little touches in this episode. Green Lantern noticing Vixen's lingerie while she's changing, Hawkgirl poking fun at the uberness of Amazo- "before your big gold friend teleports him into the sun"- and Vixen mocking the cliche, "hey, I know, let's stand around and DISCUSS it for another two hours, that way he's sure to escape!" All priceless.

5 out of 5. And damn is Hawkgirl a cutie. I love the bangs.

[Crimson]

even I wouldn't knock off stars for an episode based on Batman's absence!I know where he's coming from; once I realize that Wonder Woman is not in any given episode, my interest lessens by about 25%.

[Anon190]

The dialogue seemed a bit clunky this time, which is suprising given Bruce Timm's co-story credit, since he wrote the best lines in "Twilight." Shayera's big speech felt a bit flat and verbose, and the "I know what you want, what you need" line didn't seem commensurate to the drama of the occasion. And surely she could have uttered a stronger line after killing Grundy.
The "I know what you want" line probably rang true for her, in a way. These past few months she's been sitting up in Fate's tower wondering who the hell she is past 'Shayera'. Lt. Hol is gone, Hawkgirl is gone. Oblivion must be pretty nice as opposed to having to psychologically reconstruct oneself. But she can't give herself oblivion, because a) Fate probably already thought of that and had her watched like a hawk [bad pun! bad pun!], and b) She probably feels the need to suffer for what she's done.

[EJill34]

The "I know what you want" line probably rang true for her, in a way. These past few months she's been sitting up in Fate's tower wondering who the hell she is past 'Shayera'. Lt. Hol is gone, Hawkgirl is gone. Oblivion must be pretty nice as opposed to having to psychologically reconstruct oneself. But she can't give herself oblivion, because a) Fate probably already thought of that and had her watched like a hawk [bad pun! bad pun!], and b) She probably feels the need to suffer for what she's done.Even if the dialogue was off (I personally had no problem with it) Maria Canals' delivery makes it extremely convincing and overshadows any little problem there might have been in the script. And for my money, this episode had Maria's best performance to date. Even better than "Starcrossed" and "Terror Beyond." She was just awesome. I'd even go as far as to say that JLU has contained the best performances of the core characters (except for Flash and J'onn since they haven't done much). Take a look:

George Newbern - I'd be hard-pressed to find someone who thought he's been able to top his performance in "FTMWHE." He was incredibly emotional in that one and it makes his work in "Twilight" look like nothing (not that he wasn't good in that episode, its just that "FTMWHE" is a cut above the rest).

Kevin Conroy - He's done so many episodes that its hard to pick just one, but his singing in "This Little Piggy" stands out from the rest of his performances in JL/JLU.

Susan Eisenberg - "FTMWHE" was her best yet, hands down.

Phil Lamarr - I'd say he was best in "Starcrossed" but he certainly did great work in "The Return" and "Wake the Dead."

Maria Canals - Mentioned above.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

So, we get the Justice League and friends pounding on a seemingly unbeatable enemy until the one Leaguer jumps in to save the day at the very end.

This didn't work for me in "Dark Heart," but it worked beautifully in "Wake the Dead." For some reason, this episode seemed to click on every level, from the emotional connection to the players involved to the fight choreography. Maybe it was just residual excitement over seeing Hawkgirl again, but I doubt it. "Dark Heart" felt detached and clinical. The driving force behind the episode was the nanotechnobabble, with the characters and the action being subservient to it. Consequently, we got an episode that was extremely clever but felt sterile.

"Wake the Dead" was about getting Hawkgirl back, and the plot and the action served that purpose. I think the episode works because it was about the people, not the technology or even about the plot mechanics, and connected with the audience a lot better as a result.

Of all things, I think the commercials spoiled one of the coolest moments of the episode: the entrance of Superman. I know I would have been cheering when he showed up to bail out Vixen if I didn't already know it was coming. Still, pounding a half-ton of rage through a few buildings is a great way to make an entrance.

Absolutely killer way to end the teaser, too.

Unlike the others, I did think that Shayera killed Grundy. "Close your eyes" was a total emotional rabbit punch when I was watching it. We've had to go for far too long without Maria Canals.

"Hate the beard." Heh.

Worst part is knowing we've got to wait a month between now and the new episodes, especially after seeing Cowboy Bruce Wayne.

-- Ed/Ace

[Supernovametalstar]

Gina Torres (whom Angel fans will remember as "Jasmine") did a solid job of voicing Vixen and for that reason, as well as the fact her character was portrayed pretty well, I hope to see more of Vixen in the future.
I thought there was something familiar about that voice. I've actually watched Gina Torres since her episodes in "Hercules" and "Cleopatra 2525". And less we forget the other Joss Whedon series "Firefly".

What I like that if there are five or six "new" heroes in an episode, at least one or two get some air time to flesh them out so they are not just stand-ins or cannon fodder (like Red Tornado or that cowboy guy). Her abilities are intriguing. I wonder how many other animal spirits she can possess?

Superman gets PO'ed when he gets thrown around lately. Interesting. You would think hanging around Batman long enough would make him think things through a little better instead of just trying to use the strongest people against a zombie that just tossed them around like a ragdoll.

I'm sure others have elaborated in greater detail and in much better terms about Hawkgirl's return. I'll leave it at "I like it, hope we see her around again." Especiall if her and Wonder Woman cross paths again. Imagine a fight between the two in the Watchtower with the other heroes gathered around cheering. Too bad somebody sane like J'onn would break it up.

Animation was great. I wonder how many episodes of this calibur are left in this season?

Probably the best thing about this episode was that it felt like a two parter, but was still only 23 or so minutes. They packed a lot in without making me aware of the time, which is always good.

[Ian]

It's official: I don't like JLU. I'm still not completely sure why, but, with the exception of Fearful Symmetry and The Greatest Story Never Told (an episode with a whole lot of problems), the series has completely failed to captivate me. This episode was no exception.

Random comments:

I never saw The Terror Beyond, so could anyone explain how Shayera and Grundy got to be such great friends? Stupid Cartoon Network won't rerun it.

The episode, like so many others, didn't gel for me. The fighting was dull (is it so hard to have superheroes fight smart? X-Men: Evolution and TMNT say no); the plot was pedestrian; the use of three deux-ex-machinas (The Android, Grundy resisting The Android, the Big Honking Mace) grated; the scene with the reporters felt wrong, somehow. The revelation that they didn't vote her out negates one of the best moments from Starcrossed.

Overall, I guess I agree with Maxie Zeus: the themes and motivations in this episode didn't work.

But, like always, the episode wasn't a total loss. Both chess scenes worked. The Aquaman/octopus scene worked, as well as the part where Vixen heals herself. Unfortunately, these scenes amount to less than five minutes in a twenty minute show. Oh, well, at least it was better than TMNT's The Lesson.

[I-Am That Is]

I loved it. A few thoughts, mostly minor though, since everyone has already mentioned the big stuff & these threads are repetive anyways.

1: I like Amazo finally getting a name, but I wonder why they just dropped it on us. I mean, Aquaman & Hawkgirl had previously called him "the Android", & I'm pretty sure Fate did too.

2: Anybody else notice that Robert Picardo actually sounded like himself the whole episode? He didn't in "Tabula Rasa" or "The Return".

3: Did the cloud the nerds summoned up remind anyone else of Ikthultu?

[Supremus]

I never saw The Terror Beyond, so could anyone explain how Shayera and Grundy got to be such great friends? Stupid Cartoon Network won't rerun it.HG and Grundy took on some evil magical thingy, along with some other leaguers in a magical realm, and they sort of bonded a little throughout the battle, but not enough to really provide an adequate context for what could otherwise have been a really good death/funeral sequence after Grundy sacrificed himself to take down the big magical thingy.

[D4rkn1ght]

It was alright, I like it.

I still feel haunted by the half an hour format of the JLU. I think this episode would have been even better if it was in the style of JL season two. :sad:

One thing I didn't like was the way AMAZO was handled. I thought he was indestructible, and the way he confront Grundy wasn't realistic enough for his character.

Overall the episode was good.

Four stars.

[Fone Bone]

A question to those hating on JLU's fight sequences. What does it really matter if they aren't animated consistantly? Do you really just watch this show for the fight sequences? Do you find nothing captivating in the characters or story? Why do fight scenes make or break an episode? I would think twists and relationships would be a dealbreaker for watching a show like this.

I am also puzzled why Teen Titans always gets praised for the fight scenes but people ignore the sloppy storytelling. I do too to an extent, because I love the characters and interactions and chibis and stuff but why do people specifically think Teen Titans is a better show than JLU because of the fights? Is it because people can acknowledge that Titans has the edge in characterization? Or because people generally ignore that JLU has better storytelling?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm genuinely curious. While you answer that can someone also tell me how someone thinks Family Guy is a superior show to The Simpsons? Why doesn't storytelling matter anymore?

[Crimson]

Why do fight scenes make or break an episode? The superhero genre, at its core, has always been an action genre, so naturally the action is, for a lot of people, the most important element. Certainly an episode that was just well executed action scenes, with nothing in between, would not be very interesting, but an action show with sloppy or uninteresting action is like a sitcom with bad jokes.

(There are, strange to me, people who watch shows like JLU or read comic books looking for essentially soap opera storylines. These are people who have basically outgrown the superhero genre but refuse to leave it behind.)

[Crimson]

While you answer that can someone also tell me how someone thinks Family Guy is a superior show to The Simpsons? Why doesn't storytelling matter anymore?Sidetracking drastically: FAMILY GUY never had a chance to fall apart. THE SIMPSONS, at its prime, is unequaled. FAMILY GUY, as funny as it was, never matched THE SIMPSONS from, let's say, S2 through 6. But THE SIMPSONS has slowly, painfully, become a pitifully unfunny shadow of its former self.

[Fone Bone]

Sidetracking drastically: FAMILY GUY never had a chance to fall apart. THE SIMPSONS, at its prime, is unequaled. FAMILY GUY, as funny as it was, never matched THE SIMPSONS from, let's say, S2 through 6. But THE SIMPSONS has slowly, painfully, become a pitifully unfunny shadow of its former self.But is Family Guy actually better as a whole than The Simpsons? I don't think so even with the lukewarm later episodes.

So an action cartoon should just be about the action? I never thought of it that way. There are just so many other things about JLU that interest me more. I was never that big into action cartoons as a kid. When I first saw BTAS at the age of seventeen I was drawn into the stories. I think a good story can save bad animation rather than Great animation being able to save a bad story.

[Crimson]

So an action cartoon should just be about the action?
I never said *just* about the action. A sitcom is not just a string of jokes, there are plots and characters that string them together. Is a sitcom with good plots but lousy jokes a good sitcom?

[Fone Bone]

I never said *just* about the action. A sitcom is not just a string of jokes, there are plots and characters that string them together. Is a sitcom with good plots but lousy jokes a good sitcom?It's different with drama. I always saw JLU as a drama rather than an action show. I guess that's why the inconsistant fights don't really bother me. (I have a hard time telling if the animation is inferior unless someone points it out.)

[Dr_Flask]

Howdy,

So, we get the Justice League and friends pounding on a seemingly unbeatable enemy until the one Leaguer jumps in to save the day at the very end.

This didn't work for me in "Dark Heart," but it worked beautifully in "Wake the Dead." For some reason, this episode seemed to click on every level, from the emotional connection to the players involved to the fight choreography. Maybe it was just residual excitement over seeing Hawkgirl again, but I doubt it. "Dark Heart" felt detached and clinical. The driving force behind the episode was the nanotechnobabble, with the characters and the action being subservient to it. Consequently, we got an episode that was extremely clever but felt sterile.Ace, as you stated perfectly, Dark Heart was an emotional void ep with characters who were were about cold and detached as the machines they fought. *I'm adlibbing my opinion to your statement as well.* Sure you got The Atom but he was overshadow by all the technobabble nonsense.

Robot and machines are generally regretted as cold and detached and I felt the villians here(nanobots) was uninspiring. The JLU could have been punching at feather pillows for all I could have cared, and the fight would've been on equal footing as just as boring.

We've had to go for far too long without Maria Canals.Oh, man I agree fully! As well about The Flash and Jonn, too!

[Dr_Flask]

Ace, as you stated perfectly, Dark Heart was an emotional void ep with characters who were were about cold and detached as the machines they fought. *I'm adlibbing my opinion to your statement as well.* Sure you got The Atom but he was overshadow by all the technobabble nonsense.

Robot and machines are generally regretted as cold and detached and I felt the villians here(nanobots) was uninspiring. The JLU could have been punching at feather pillows for all I could have cared, and the fight would've been on equal footing as just as boring.
Oh, man I agree fully! As well about The Flash and Jonn, too!
(There are, strange to me, people who watch shows like JLU or read comic books looking for essentially soap opera storylines. These are people who have basically outgrown the superhero genre but refuse to leave it behind.)While I get what you're saying, Crimson. But I think JL/JLU has always been about drama more than action. DBZ is an action show. If JL/JLU was just about superheroes fighting(action show), I suspect many here wouldn't be fans of the show.
I like drama, thats why I tend to favor JL alot more over JLU. JLU does has elements of drama, but its action tends to lead the way. JL, however, balanced the drama, the comedy, and the action splendidly!

[Crimson]

It's different with drama. I always saw JLU as a drama rather than an action show. I guess that's why the inconsistant fights don't really bother me. (I have a hard time telling if the animation is inferior unless someone points it out.)How else would the SPIDER-MAN and X-MEN films be classified, if not as action? I see no reason that super-hero cartoons would be different.

To each his own, of course, but I find it slightly distressing that so many people approach the superhero genre with your view. Comic books, because of this attitude, have today all but excluded their original intended audience, while they aim increasingly at a very small (and shrinking) audience of adults who insist that comic books 'grow up' with them.

I watch JUSTICE LEAGUE for exactly the same reason I watched G.I. JOE and SUPERFRIENDS, and read comic books, as a kid. My standards may be more stringent now, but when JLU and its predecessors work, they satisfy the hidden 10 year old lurking inside my adult body.

If I want 'serious drama' I'm certainly not going to be turning to a cartoon about flying people in spandex. JL/JLU, at its best, works on a more dramatic element, and that's great. But the creators seem to understand that, at its core, it should be an action show.

[Supremus]

A question to those hating on JLU's fight sequences. What does it really matter if they aren't animated consistantly? Do you really just watch this show for the fight sequences? Do you find nothing captivating in the characters or story? Why do fight scenes make or break an episode? I would think twists and relationships would be a dealbreaker for watching a show like this.

I am also puzzled why Teen Titans always gets praised for the fight scenes but people ignore the sloppy storytelling. I do too to an extent, because I love the characters and interactions and chibis and stuff but why do people specifically think Teen Titans is a better show than JLU because of the fights? Is it because people can acknowledge that Titans has the edge in characterization? Or because people generally ignore that JLU has better storytelling?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm genuinely curious. While you answer that can someone also tell me how someone thinks Family Guy is a superior show to The Simpsons? Why doesn't storytelling matter anymore? JL is an animated action show, so when that aspect of it doesn't deliver, it's disappointing. Simple as that.

That doesn't necessarily mean poor animation will ruin a whole episode, though. Classic BTAS episodes such as "Heart of Ice" had quite weak animation in certain places, but it's still considered one of the all time greatest episodes because of it's strong story. Personally, I much prefer a strong story over good animation, but such episodes are rare with JL, although things have improved quite a bit with JLU. Even though I didn't really like episodes such as "Greatest Battle" and "This Little Piggy", they at least deserve some credit for trying something other than the usually mega-battle we got week after week on the original JL series, and "experimental" episodes like that can be a bit hit'n-miss, but without such experiments we wouldn't get episodes like "Kids Stuff" which in my opinion did get all the elements just right, and a lot of people commented it felt like a good Teen Titans episode, and not just because of the kiddified leaguers. Look how neatly I segued into the Teen Titans part of your question there :-)

Overall, I don't think Teen Titans is better than JLU. TT season 3 so far hasn't been particularly good, and when TT is bad, it's absolutely awful. The thing about Teen Titans is that it just has that certain feeling of not taking itself too seriously. When they do a good action episode, the animation and storyboarding is just magnificent, so even if it has nothing else going for it, it can often be enjoyed purely on a visual level. JL rarely, if ever, reaches the same visual height as the best TT episodes. Have a look at season 3's "X" as an example of a great looking episode.

TT are also more imaginative with their action than JL. Far too often, JL ends up just being the same punches thrown, Superman slamming into a wall, J'onn phasing through something, Flash(who?) tripping over his own feet, GL hiding behind the same tired old forcefield, etc, etc. The first time I got a really cool feeling from a JL action sequence was in the excellent "A Better World" when Flash pelted Evil Supes with rocks and then dodged and judo'ed him through the roof. That was such a fun little sequence. Again, this is an aspect that has improved on JLU. First of all J'onn and Flash are not around, GL has finally read the manual to the ring, and if "FTMWHE" is any indication, Wonder Woman has been hanging out with the WWF'ers during the off-season. There is still some way to go to beat the best Teen Titans action, but when it's good, it's good enough. I thought the "Wake The Dead" battle was quite good, particularly the bit where Supes got sandwich-smacked by two cars, and I am one of the people who always moan about Supes being too weak, but it's fine as long as it makes sense. None of this 12volt electrified manhole-cover crap that used to incapacitate him on the original JL show.

Making good cartoons is obviously not an exact science. There is no magic formula telling you how much good dialog, storytelling and decent animation goes into creating a classic episode, so there will be quite a few misses. When JL misses, it feels a little bit like watching Independence Day. There's all kinds of hollow dramatics, soulless faux-emotion, tired clichés, and lots of big, epic, boring action, which is not necessarily good or nice looking, there's just lots of it, and compared to TT, JL's more serious tone can make the show feel a bit contrived. Hmm, I kind of made that sound a lot worse than I intended. In some cultures, an Independence Day comparison is the ultimate insult. I still think JLU's overall best episodes are better than TT's best, and TT's worst episodes are worse than JLU's worst, but as far as the visuals go, Teen Titans usually come out on top, and sometimes that's enough.

Oh, and Family Guy's best is trash compared to The Simpsons' best.

[Fone Bone]

How else would the SPIDER-MAN and X-MEN films be classified, if not as action? I see no reason that super-hero cartoons would be different.

To each his own, of course, but I find it slightly distressing that so many people approach the superhero genre with your view. Comic books, because of this attitude, have today all but excluded their original intended audience, while they aim increasingly at a very small (and shrinking) audience of adults who insist that comic books 'grow up' with them.

I watch JUSTICE LEAGUE for exactly the same reason I watched G.I. JOE and SUPERFRIENDS, and read comic books, as a kid. My standards may be more stringent now, but when JLU and its predecessors work, they satisfy the hidden 10 year old lurking inside my adult body.

If I want 'serious drama' I'm certainly not going to be turning to a cartoon about flying people in spandex. JL/JLU, at its best, works on a more dramatic element, and that's great. But the creators seem to understand that, at its core, it should be an action show.No reason to be distressed. The more people who watch superhero cartoons, the longer they last. The reasons aren't really important. Do you honestly mean to tell me when you think of Mask of the Phantasm the first thing you think of isn't Bruce at his parent's grave with Andrea? Or for Return of the Joker Joker's mind raping of Tim and how it devastes Bruce and Barbara? Or in Legacy when Superman is forced to face a world that may no longer want him?

I don't think it's just me.:D

[Mister Intensity]

Grundy was the only person on Earth Hawkgirl was completely honest with, that's why she felt so close to him.

Mister Intensity

[Fone Bone]

JL is an animated action show, so when that aspect of it doesn't deliver, it's disappointing. Simple as that.

That doesn't necessarily mean poor animation will ruin a whole episode, though. Classic BTAS episodes such as "Heart of Ice" had quite weak animation in certain places, but it's still considered one of the all time greatest episodes because of it's strong story. Personally, I much prefer a strong story over good animation, but such episodes are rare with JL, although things have improved quite a bit with JLU. Even though I didn't really like episodes such as "Greatest Battle" and "This Little Piggy", they at least deserve some credit for trying something other than the usually mega-battle we got week after week on the original JL series, and "experimental" episodes like that can be a bit hit'n-miss, but without such experiments we wouldn't get episodes like "Kids Stuff" which in my opinion did get all the elements just right, and a lot of people commented it felt like a good Teen Titans episode, and not just because of the kiddified leaguers. Look how neatly I segued into the Teen Titans part of your question there :-)

Overall, I don't think Teen Titans is better than JLU. TT season 3 so far hasn't been particularly good, and when TT is bad, it's absolutely awful. The thing about Teen Titans is that it just has that certain feeling of not taking itself too seriously. When they do a good action episode, the animation and storyboarding is just magnificent, so even if it has nothing else going for it, it can often be enjoyed purely on a visual level. JL rarely, if ever, reaches the same visual height as the best TT episodes. Have a look at season 3's "X" as an example of a great looking episode.

TT are also more imaginative with their action than JL. Far too often, JL ends up just being the same punches thrown, Superman slamming into a wall, J'onn phasing through something, Flash(who?) tripping over his own feet, GL hiding behind the same tired old forcefield, etc, etc. The first time I got a really cool feeling from a JL action sequence was in the excellent "A Better World" when Flash pelted Evil Supes with rocks and then dodged and judo'ed him through the roof. That was such a fun little sequence. Again, this is an aspect that has improved on JLU. First of all J'onn and Flash are not around, GL has finally read the manual to the ring, and if "FTMWHE" is any indication, Wonder Woman has been hanging out with the WWF'ers during the off-season. There is still some way to go to beat the best Teen Titans action, but when it's good, it's good enough. I thought the "Wake The Dead" battle was quite good, particularly the bit where Supes got sandwich-smacked by two cars, and I am one of the people who always moan about Supes being too weak, but it's fine as long as it makes sense. None of this 12volt electrified manhole-cover crap that used to incapacitate him on the original JL show.

Making good cartoons is obviously not an exact science. There is no magic formula telling you how much good dialog, storytelling and decent animation goes into creating a classic episode, so there will be quite a few misses. When JL misses, it feels a little bit like watching Independence Day. There's all kinds of hollow dramatics, soulless faux-emotion, tired clichés, and lots of big, epic, boring action, which is not necessarily good or nice looking, there's just lots of it, and compared to TT, JL's more serious tone can make the show feel a bit contrived. Hmm, I kind of made that sound a lot worse than I intended. In some cultures, an Independence Day comparison is the ultimate insult. I still think JLU's overall best episodes are better than TT's best, and TT's worst episodes are worse than JLU's worst, but as far as the visuals go, Teen Titans usually come out on top, and sometimes that's enough. Thank you for the response. I think I understand the reasoning a little better even if I don't share that viewpoint.


Oh, and Family Guy's best is trash compared to The Simpsons' best.

Agreed.

Bird Boy I tried that right clicky thing and it didn't work. How do I quote two posts at once again?

[paulie]

Well, the only thing I can add is something I said in the YTV talkback...this episode felt very much like the old JL, what with the old crew getting back together. Felt like they were talking like people who actually knew each other...

Gotta agree with BillA1, the visuals when Shayera is hunting Grundy in the sewers were really cool.

**** from me!

[Supremus]

this episode had Maria's best performance to date. Even better than "Starcrossed" and "Terror Beyond." She was just awesome. I'd even go as far as to say that JLU has contained the best performances of the core charactersI absolutely 100% agree. I must admit I didn't like her voice at all when I first heard it in "Secret Origins", and as most people around here have probably noticed, I complain a lot and rarely change my mind when I dislike something, so I am really happy to say that she has completely won me over with her consistently outstanding performances. I thought she was by far the best thing about "The Terror Beyond" and "Starcrossed", and she was equally brilliant in "Wake The Dead". I think it would be really interesting to see some video of the voice recording process as special features on the DVDs, so we can see how much direction and effort goes into the various performances.

[Ian]

A question to those hating on JLU's fight sequences. What does it really matter if they aren't animated consistently? Do you really just watch this show for the fight sequences? Do you find nothing captivating in the characters or story? Why do fight scenes make or break an episode? I would think twists and relationships would be a deal breaker for watching a show like this.

The thing is, Matt (can I call you that?), that right now, there's not much storytelling involved in JLU. Like I said in my previous post, I didn't watch The Terror Beyond, so the Grundy aspect of the story does nothing to me. The basic premise of the plot is sketchy: some college losers somehow manage to "resurrect" Solomon Grundy, and Hawkgirl returns. Thing is, her departure hasn't been felt, storyline-wise. For her return to be effective in the dramatic sense, she has to have been missed. She’s not. The League is doing fine without her, and seems to have gotten over her betrayal. Powerwise, she’s more than compensated for. As for the finale, her reluctance to kill Grundy was forced: as Fate had said, there was no Grundy there, ergo no dilemma. The revelation that they hadn’t booted her out removed quite a bit of drama from Starcrossed’s excellent ending, and seems tacked on just to have the hunky-dory ending: “we love you Hawkgirl, even though you almost doomed the Earth”! John’s developments and new girlfriend are just there. I don’t know what we were supposed to feel regarding him. As it was, it just felt artificial, placed there just so there can be a love triangle once Hawkgirl returns and so John can feel conflicted. It’s so transparent, we can’t feel happy for anyone.

Past episodes, such as The Return or Dark Heart, had even sketchier plots, and little to no plausible drama. It’s gotten to the point where all that’s left of the show is the action, and that’s really not very good.

Now, if the show were more like Gargoyles or X-Men: Evo, where the action is secondary to the plots and character, I really wouldn’t care. Gargoyles, IMO has unremarkable fight scenes, but it doesn’t really stop me from enjoying the episodes: I’m here for the characters and the story. Evo…well, Evo had character development, drama and some excellent fight scenes, so it satisfied me. Normally, I'd say that the DCAU stories also stressed drama over action, but not, I'm not so sure.

And for the battles themselves, it's not the animation, IMO: it's the whole execution— which would be more storyboarding and writing than animation. There's just no sense that these people are working as a team, or that they're even skilled; they're just punching randomly and ineffectively, buying time until the episode’s over.

Some examples of good fights and action sequences:

· The Turtles vs. The Foot (TMNT: The Shredder Strikes): Both teams act competently here. The turtles act defensively, defeating individual Foot and defending whomever Shredder is attacking at the moment. The Foot Ninjas are keeping the turtles occupied, leaving them open to attacks by Saki. That's good, solid strategy from both parts, and good teamwork.

· The X-Men vs. The Juggernaut (X-Men: Evo: The Stuff of Heroes): Juggy is Grundy here: pretty much "unstoppable". Here they go all out. Kitty and Kurt try to remove the helmet, and Kitty manages to phase Juggy into a pipe. Spyke can do little. Bobby creates slippery ice patches. Jean is on damage control. Scott removes his visor and gives him all he's got—it's not enough. In the end, Kitty allows Rogue to touch Juggy, weakening him and transferring part of his power to Rogue. She and Bobby then finish the fight. Again, there's teamwork, exertion, and coolness. Again, there's the feeling: these guys know how to fight.

· Kitty vs. Train (X-Men: Evo: All Good Deeds…): There’s an imminent train crash. Knowing they can’t stop it, Kitty does a desperate thing: she tries to phase one train through the other. Cool because, DAMN, it’s something Kitty’s never tried before, and waaaay beyond her league. She fails, but it’s still a very impressive and creative use of her powers.

· Mutants vs. The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse (X-Men: Evo: Ascencion): Lots of cool stuff here, so I’ll mention one: Tabitha creating lots of small boom-booms, which a legion of Jamies then slingshot at Death. Again, very cool, clever use of powers, and definitely something I didn’t see coming.

All of the people in these fights act intelligently, and to their full potential. This rarely happens with JL.


I am also puzzled why Teen Titans always gets praised for the fight scenes but people ignore the sloppy storytelling. I do too to an extent, because I love the characters and interactions and chibis and stuff but why do people specifically think Teen Titans is a better show than JLU because of the fights? Is it because people can acknowledge that Titans has the edge in characterization? Or because people generally ignore that JLU has better storytelling?

For me, it’s partly because of expectations—one expects different things from different shows, and satisfaction is measure against how it fulfills those expectations. My expectations for JLU are much higher than for Titans (at least they were, at first). Therefore, the JLU has to do more to satisfy me. Second, there’s the fact that JLU doesn’t have better storytelling. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but entire episodes and resolutions are based on plot holes.

· Eclipsed: So if Green Lantern can make a trail for the Flash all the way to the sun, why can’t he throw the device himself?

· Starcrossed: You know, the Earth could sure use 20+ plus heroes about now. Where, oh where could they be?

· Greatest Story Never Told: So if the portable Black Hole carrier is completely conscious and capable, why doesn’t he just, you know, stop?

· The Return: So this Android guy, he can turn Invisible, Intangible, and can Teleport. Why is he fighting the League again, instead of passing through undetected? And why is the League fighting—rather badly, at that—a guy they know they can’t beat? After Tabula Rasa, the League knew that direct confrontation was madness. Yet what do they do? Direct confrontation, without even exploring other options.

Teen Titans has its share of plot holes, but they’re generally less noticeable and overshadowed by all the cool stuff happening on screen.

Hope this helps.

[D4rkn1ght]

While I get what you're saying, Crimson. But I think JL/JLU has always been about drama more than action. DBZ is an action show. If JL/JLU was just about superheroes fighting(action show), I suspect many here wouldn't be fans of the show.
I like drama, thats why I tend to favor JL alot more over JLU. JLU does has elements of drama, but its action tends to lead the way. JL, however, balanced the drama, the comedy, and the action splendidly!

Exactly! :)

The Drama side was the reason why I felt in love with the Batman of the 90's. That's also the reason why I like and prefer JL's seasons one and two over what we have seen over the JLU lately.

While I also like the action, the water down drama of the JLU do not compare with the previous seasons of JL, or everything else Mr Timm has done since Batman for that matter. That is something that I miss on the new format.

I realize this is not Mr Timm's fault. WB and CN wanted this changes to be more appealing to the young, and probably sale more toys. :rolleyes:

[Anon190]

As to the Drama vs. Action debate, I always thought it was a bit of a waste to have these wonderful, deep characters left throwing punches and smashing buildings. Yes, the superhero genre has quite a bit of action, like it should, but what's the point if it leads nowhere and is repetetive? That's why I'm heartily in love with the battles in Secret Society, Better World, Starcrossed - they were creative, well done, and had a point. Supergirl's fight with her clone in Fearful Symmetry, though, was boring. Yay - buildings go boom. *waves flags*

EDIT: Apparently Carr's list of questions went bye-bye, so my list of answers heads the same way.

[Supremus]

EDIT: Apparently Carr's list of questions went bye-bye, so my list of answers heads the same way.Wow, that's what I call a decisive victory. I had you ahead on points, but I didn't expect a clean knock-out :)

[Allen CARR]

even if my questions are gone, i still stand buy my argument. If people have problems with JLU episodes, dun watch the show. Then it wil go off the air, then we will really miss it. and all the things that could of been, lets hope that never happens.:sweat: :D

[Fone Bone]

The thing is, Matt (can I call you that?), that right now, there's not much storytelling involved in JLU. Like I said in my previous post, I didn't watch The Terror Beyond, so the Grundy aspect of the story does nothing to me. The basic premise of the plot is sketchy: some college losers somehow manage to "resurrect" Solomon Grundy, and Hawkgirl returns. Thing is, her departure hasn't been felt, storyline-wise. For her return to be effective in the dramatic sense, she has to have been missed. She’s not. The League is doing fine without her, and seems to have gotten over her betrayal. Powerwise, she’s more than compensated for. As for the finale, her reluctance to kill Grundy was forced: as Fate had said, there was no Grundy there, ergo no dilemma. The revelation that they hadn’t booted her out removed quite a bit of drama from Starcrossed’s excellent ending, and seems tacked on just to have the hunky-dory ending: “we love you Hawkgirl, even though you almost doomed the Earth”! John’s developments and new girlfriend are just there. I don’t know what we were supposed to feel regarding him. As it was, it just felt artificial, placed there just so there can be a love triangle once Hawkgirl returns and so John can feel conflicted. It’s so transparent, we can’t feel happy for anyone.

Past episodes, such as The Return or Dark Heart, had even sketchier plots, and little to no plausible drama. It’s gotten to the point where all that’s left of the show is the action, and that’s really not very good.

Now, if the show were more like Gargoyles or X-Men: Evo, where the action is secondary to the plots and character, I really wouldn’t care. Gargoyles, IMO has unremarkable fight scenes, but it doesn’t really stop me from enjoying the episodes: I’m here for the characters and the story. Evo…well, Evo had character development, drama and some excellent fight scenes, so it satisfied me. Normally, I'd say that the DCAU stories also stressed drama over action, but not, I'm not so sure.

And for the battles themselves, it's not the animation, IMO: it's the whole execution— which would be more storyboarding and writing than animation. There's just no sense that these people are working as a team, or that they're even skilled; they're just punching randomly and ineffectively, buying time until the episode’s over.

Some examples of good fights and action sequences:

· The Turtles vs. The Foot (TMNT: The Shredder Strikes): Both teams act competently here. The turtles act defensively, defeating individual Foot and defending whomever Shredder is attacking at the moment. The Foot Ninjas are keeping the turtles occupied, leaving them open to attacks by Saki. That's good, solid strategy from both parts, and good teamwork.

· The X-Men vs. The Juggernaut (X-Men: Evo: The Stuff of Heroes): Juggy is Grundy here: pretty much "unstoppable". Here they go all out. Kitty and Kurt try to remove the helmet, and Kitty manages to phase Juggy into a pipe. Spyke can do little. Bobby creates slippery ice patches. Jean is on damage control. Scott removes his visor and gives him all he's got—it's not enough. In the end, Kitty allows Rogue to touch Juggy, weakening him and transferring part of his power to Rogue. She and Bobby then finish the fight. Again, there's teamwork, exertion, and coolness. Again, there's the feeling: these guys know how to fight.

· Kitty vs. Train (X-Men: Evo: All Good Deeds…): There’s an imminent train crash. Knowing they can’t stop it, Kitty does a desperate thing: she tries to phase one train through the other. Cool because, DAMN, it’s something Kitty’s never tried before, and waaaay beyond her league. She fails, but it’s still a very impressive and creative use of her powers.

· Mutants vs. The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse (X-Men: Evo: Ascencion): Lots of cool stuff here, so I’ll mention one: Tabitha creating lots of small boom-booms, which a legion of Jamies then slingshot at Death. Again, very cool, clever use of powers, and definitely something I didn’t see coming.

All of the people in these fights act intelligently, and to their full potential. This rarely happens with JL.


For me, it’s partly because of expectations—one expects different things from different shows, and satisfaction is measure against how it fulfills those expectations. My expectations for JLU are much higher than for Titans (at least they were, at first). Therefore, the JLU has to do more to satisfy me. Second, there’s the fact that JLU doesn’t have better storytelling. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but entire episodes and resolutions are based on plot holes.

· Eclipsed: So if Green Lantern can make a trail for the Flash all the way to the sun, why can’t he throw the device himself?

· Starcrossed: You know, the Earth could sure use 20+ plus heroes about now. Where, oh where could they be?

· Greatest Story Never Told: So if the portable Black Hole carrier is completely conscious and capable, why doesn’t he just, you know, stop?

· The Return: So this Android guy, he can turn Invisible, Intangible, and can Teleport. Why is he fighting the League again, instead of passing through undetected? And why is the League fighting—rather badly, at that—a guy they know they can’t beat? After Tabula Rasa, the League knew that direct confrontation was madness. Yet what do they do? Direct confrontation, without even exploring other options.

Teen Titans has its share of plot holes, but they’re generally less noticeable and overshadowed by all the cool stuff happening on screen.

I see about the plot holes in the episodes you mentioned but for every WTF moment in JL/JLU there is an episode like A Better World, Twilight, For the Man Who Had Everything. and yes, Starcrossed. (The absence of heroes didn't bother me. Who's to say they weren't fighting the Thanagarians in their own hometowns?) Fearful Symmetry worked because the idea of a story tying in ALL the DCAU series and having everything that has happened so far have happened for A REASON is just the coolest thing ever. I admit that Ultimatum and Dark Heart have botched this story somewhat but I won't write it off until the second season finale. Kids stuff was also awesome in the fact that we got to see all the characters interact as children and answered a lot of questions about group dynamics. Even This Little Piggy raised the provocatice question of why Circe would need to hear Batman sing as her price.

[Bird Boy]

Bird Boy I tried that right clicky thing and it didn't work. How do I quote two posts at once again?

Just open two windows with each quote box you want, reply to the first one. Then go to the second window, copy and paste the text in it, paste it in the first window and then type your reply below the other quote/reply.

As an alternative to "Select All", you can just highlight it all with your mouse and go from the Copy and Pasting steps there.

-BB

[DerekPowers]

Okay, I know i'm abit late to jump in here with my review, so i'll keep it on the short side--

I liked this episode A LOT untill the ending. This episode started out really strong, imo. I loved the little business in the begining at Fate's place. And i loved all the HG stuff at Fate's Place, with Fate's wife, and all that stuff.

I LOVED Vixen. That was the best intro to a JLU character so far, perhaps tieing with GA's intro in 'Initiation'. Her character is really interesting.

ALL the heros in this ep werent useless. This is THE BEST example, so far in JLU, of the heros using their unique abilities effectively, without anyone seeming too weak or out of place. They all used their powers in an interesting way (including Superman!!!!!!!) and they all had something to contribute in the battle.

The dialogue here was great. It was starting to remind me of on of the previous dcau shows! I particularly liked Amazo's presence and how he decided to help the league out.

The story was essentially a HG/GL follow up story, so the thinness of the Grundy plot was ok, imo.

Here's what I didnt like:

I didnt like the college nerds resurrecting Grundy. Wouldve liked something more relevent there.

I HATED the ending. It ruined what could have been the best JLU ep so far. I'll say it again, THE ENDING RUINED THIS EPISODE (similar to how the ending in "injustice for all" also ruined an otherwise good episode). But here, the ending was worse, because of what it implied about the entire league. Let me ask: Just WHAT is the league's policy on KILLING?

I DID NOT LIKE the League acting as judge, jury and EXECUTIONER in this ep. it seemed so un-hero like. I mean, arent they supose to not kill unless its fully necessary? I thought Grundy was coming around in the ending, and could have been reasoned with. I didnt like how the League automatically decides to kill him, and i dont like how thats what they set out to do even before HG showed up (notice how HG says she has to stop the league from killing him).

I sincerely hope that they resolve this can of worms, now that they've opened it. in "the savage time", yeah, they killed Nazis, but that was WWII, so it seeemed to be an exceptional case. Here, they just decide to kill Grundy, which i find unacceptable and really unnessecarily violent for the story.

For example, what would BATMAN have done if he was involved in this episode? would he have been ok with the idea of simply "putting down" Solomon Grundy? it just seems like the JL shouldnt have that kind of authority. Remember Lois's reaction to when Superman gave Doomsday a lobotomy in "A Better World"? Well, that was MY reaction to the League's decission to kill Grundy. It just seemed to OUT OF CHARACTER for them, they are supose to be heros! This really upsets me, cause i think the whole undertone of the show has changed for me now. I use to think the Government was the bad guys here, but now i'm starting to qs whether the League has too much power and authority, and if they are using that power in the right way.

I think a much better way to have ended it would be if HG took Grundy to Fate's Place with her, or asked Dr. Fate if she could give Grundy her spot in his home. Or if she had to become Grundy's keeper some how, and didnt really return to the League full time (because of the public's response) and could have become more of a shadow member, keeping an eye on Grundy, you know? it would have been better than just killing him, GEEEEZ.

Anyway, anyone agree with me. I liked the first half of this episode a lot. i was probably the best dialogue and character stuff we've had all season, but the 'old yeller' ending just seemed way too out of character for the league, way to violent, and just plain unnecessary and un-hero like. Again, WHAT WOULD BATMAN HAVE DONE? WOULD HE HAVE KILLED GRUNDY OR AGREED TO THAT? I know Grundy is already dead, technically, but all the JLU heros/villians are ab-normal, so.

And also, i felt the ending just left a lot of things up in the air, it didnt resolve a lot of what was brought up. Like, i was really waiting for Amazo to return to earth at some point, i was just waiting for more to happen with HG, GL, and Vixen (loved the 'hate the beard' line, though).

Anyway, anyone else find the League's decision to KILL Grundy a little disturbing? This episode was really great except for that part and the ending also left a lot to be desired (it seemed rushed). peace.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


(There are, strange to me, people who watch shows like JLU or read comic books looking for essentially soap opera storylines. These are people who have basically outgrown the superhero genre but refuse to leave it behind.)
Are you willing or able to say the same thing about about any other genre of storytelling? Could you say the same thing about fans of the Harry Potter or Jack Ryan books, or of shows like 24 and Buffy the Vampire Slayer? If not, then why is the superhero genre the one and only genre that it would apply to?

-- Ed/Ace

[paulie]

Anyway, anyone else find the League's decision to KILL Grundy a little disturbing? This episode was really great except for that part and the ending also left a lot to be desired (it seemed rushed). peace.Well, I agree that the ending was disturbing, but I think this was a case where "killing" Grundy (can you kill a zombie, ask Vixen heh) was the RIGHT thing to do. So yeah, it's not such a warm-fuzzy feeling when the decision is made that killing is right thing to do, and it really does go against what the JL typically stands for.

I think there was enough in the episode to establish that this wasn't the old Grundy from "The Terror Beyond", so that helped reduce any sympathy for him, and has been mentioned, Maria Canals really did a good job expressing how it wasn't an easy act for Hawkgirl to. Also, notice the reactions of the Leaguers when she comes out of the sewers--they either look away or hang their heads. Man, this episode was a real downer the more I think about it. Sheesh.

I think that's why I like the VERY ending...the League walking into the sunrise, cheezy maybe, but hey, I needed it after the angst-fest. Also a nice nod to Shayera (Starcrossed -->sunset, flying away...WTD -->sunrise, walking w/ the League). OK, need to stop, providing too much amateur essay-ing...

[DerekPowers]

Thise credits stink. The credits used to get me excited about the upcoming episode, now it just bores with the most boring clips they could think of adding. Thanks for killing something that was unique.

Mister Intensity

AGREED. As long as it didnt have spoilers, i liked it.

[Supremus]

Anyway, anyone else find the League's decision to KILL Grundy a little disturbing?I am not usually in favor of the League killing people, but Grundy was never really alive. He was brought back from the dead as a Zombie. Like b.t. said, he was suffering, and "killing" him was the only way to get him peace. I just think it was a shame that point wasn't made better in the actual episode. Sure, Grundy looked to be suffering at the end, but only after HG had already smacked him with the mace once. The end scene would have had more emotional resonance if Grundy's suffering had been more apparent throughout the episode rather than just being referred to in a throw-away "Old Yeller" reference.

I also think it would have been a stronger ending to wrap it up focusing on the consequences the decision to kill Grundy had on the Leaguers, or maybe just on HG. I wasn't looking for another teary-eyed funeral scene, but the sudden jump to an entirely different theme completely defused what was a pretty serious issue. Maybe the Grundy issue would have better used to convince HG not to return. Not that I don't want her to return, it would just have been more dramatic and interesting that way if killing Grundy would have just brough HG even more emtional turmoil and suffering. The convinient Grundy-is-dead-Hawkgirl-is-back ending just seemed a little... blah, to me.

Anyway, don't kill, stay in school, kids.

[Knight]

Okay, I know i'm abit late to jump in here with my review, so i'll keep it on the short side--

I liked this episode A LOT untill the ending. This episode started out really strong, imo. I loved the little business in the begining at Fate's place. And i loved all the HG stuff at Fate's Place, with Fate's wife, and all that stuff.

I LOVED Vixen. That was the best intro to a JLU character so far, perhaps tieing with GA's intro in 'Initiation'. Her character is really interesting.

ALL the heros in this ep werent useless. This is THE BEST example, so far in JLU, of the heros using their unique abilities effectively, without anyone seeming too weak or out of place. They all used their powers in an interesting way (including Superman!!!!!!!) and they all had something to contribute in the battle.

The dialogue here was great. It was starting to remind me of on of the previous dcau shows! I particularly liked Amazo's presence and how he decided to help the league out.

The story was essentially a HG/GL follow up story, so the thinness of the Grundy plot was ok, imo.

Here's what I didnt like:

I didnt like the college nerds resurrecting Grundy. Wouldve liked something more relevent there.

I HATED the ending. It ruined what could have been the best JLU ep so far. I'll say it again, THE ENDING RUINED THIS EPISODE (similar to how the ending in "injustice for all" also ruined an otherwise good episode). But here, the ending was worse, because of what it implied about the entire league. Let me ask: Just WHAT is the league's policy on KILLING?

I DID NOT LIKE the League acting as judge, jury and EXECUTIONER in this ep. it seemed so un-hero like. I mean, arent they supose to not kill unless its fully necessary? I thought Grundy was coming around in the ending, and could have been reasoned with. I didnt like how the League automatically decides to kill him, and i dont like how thats what they set out to do even before HG showed up (notice how HG says she has to stop the league from killing him).

I sincerely hope that they resolve this can of worms, now that they've opened it. in "the savage time", yeah, they killed Nazis, but that was WWII, so it seeemed to be an exceptional case. Here, they just decide to kill Grundy, which i find unacceptable and really unnessecarily violent for the story.

For example, what would BATMAN have done if he was involved in this episode? would he have been ok with the idea of simply "putting down" Solomon Grundy? it just seems like the JL shouldnt have that kind of authority. Remember Lois's reaction to when Superman gave Doomsday a lobotomy in "A Better World"? Well, that was MY reaction to the League's decission to kill Grundy. It just seemed to OUT OF CHARACTER for them, they are supose to be heros! This really upsets me, cause i think the whole undertone of the show has changed for me now. I use to think the Government was the bad guys here, but now i'm starting to qs whether the League has too much power and authority, and if they are using that power in the right way.

I think a much better way to have ended it would be if HG took Grundy to Fate's Place with her, or asked Dr. Fate if she could give Grundy her spot in his home. Or if she had to become Grundy's keeper some how, and didnt really return to the League full time (because of the public's response) and could have become more of a shadow member, keeping an eye on Grundy, you know? it would have been better than just killing him, GEEEEZ.

Anyway, anyone agree with me. I liked the first half of this episode a lot. i was probably the best dialogue and character stuff we've had all season, but the 'old yeller' ending just seemed way too out of character for the league, way to violent, and just plain unnecessary and un-hero like. Again, WHAT WOULD BATMAN HAVE DONE? WOULD HE HAVE KILLED GRUNDY OR AGREED TO THAT? I know Grundy is already dead, technically, but all the JLU heros/villians are ab-normal, so.

And also, i felt the ending just left a lot of things up in the air, it didnt resolve a lot of what was brought up. Like, i was really waiting for Amazo to return to earth at some point, i was just waiting for more to happen with HG, GL, and Vixen (loved the 'hate the beard' line, though).

Anyway, anyone else find the League's decision to KILL Grundy a little disturbing? This episode was really great except for that part and the ending also left a lot to be desired (it seemed rushed). peace.
The League never openly said they were trying to kill Grundy. That's what Hawkgirl seemed to think might happen thought if the battle was prolonged would be my guess.The JL is the type of team that as a whole doesn't kill but they do have people on the team that will. John Stewart, Aquaman, Captain Atom ,Hawkgirl, Wonder Woman and Orion are all warriors and soldiers who if pressed will take a life.

Killing is never a first option for the League it is usually the last alternative. Most of the time they go out of their way to make sure no one dies but sometimes it is unavoidable.

I didn't have a problem with the ending because it was something that had to be done. Grundy wasn't the same Grundy. He was a completely mindless monster of destruction. I don't know if he was coming around as much as he was wasted from having his head bashed. Hawkgirl put him out of his misery.

As far as Batman although he is not a killer he is a "Do whatever you have to do to win type". Even as a old man in BB The Call he told Terry if he has to kill Superman to stop him then that's what has to be done. Batman's not that naive. Sometimes killing is necessary in certain situations.

[DerekPowers]

Well, i think the idea of 'should the leauge kill" should have been brought up in this episode. If they are going to be killing bad guys, they could atleast vote on it or something.

next, by the end it seemed HG's mace was getting through to Grundy. He was weakened enough that he could atleast listen to what HG had to say. I think there was still a chance to save him, instead of just killing him.

It seemed like a "we know what is right for you, even if you dont" kind of move, it just seemed really like a strange turn of events for the league. So, they KILL BAD GUYS NOW? sorry, it doesnt sit well with me.

The idea that, "Oh, he's a zombie, he's dead anyway" also doesnt hold water, cause he's always been a zombie and theyve always taken him to jail.

Again, i was left with that feeling that Lois had when superman lobotomized Doomsday, it just seemed so out of character. I for one hope HG has enough internal unrest from killing Grundy that the league vows not to take another life again, or atleast to not make such a move without involving a vote or the police or something. Like, what if superman killed a bad guy in stas? you're saying the metropolis police and maggie sawyer and dan turpin would be okay with that? or how about how commisioner Gordon would feel if Batman killed the Joker? it just doesnt feel right to me.

Sadly though, whats done is done, and i dont know if i like this turn of events. i hope they can rectify it.

I also understand that the JLU is so big, and all the heros must have their own standards on killing, but they should atleast have had more of a discussion about it. I for one do not like this new precedent, and i feel really saddened that JLU 'went there', so to speak. Its even scarier to put it in the context of the times we live in today. I know its alittle weird to say about a cartoon, but i honestly dont know if i can ever look at the JLU the same way again. peace.

[Supremus]

Sadly though, whats done is done, and i dont know if i like this turn of events. i hope they can rectify it.I don't think you have worry that this marks a new and more ruthless approach by the League. I just don't think the issue was properly explored or explained in the episode. Yes, Grundy was always a Zombie, but this time it was different as he was supposedly suffering. From that perspective, I think the "mercy-kill" argument works, but I agree that it should have been a bigger deal for the various Leaguers. Maybe this could have been an opportunity to bring J'onn back in. Those action figures are not going to sell themselves, and a Martian Mind-meld might have provided a better explantion of Grundy's suffering and perhaps a wish to be "put down". I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there. I just didn't think it all came together particularly well.

[DerekPowers]

I don't think you have worry that this marks a new and more ruthless approach by the League. I just don't think the issue was properly explored or explained in the episode. Yes, Grundy was always a Zombie, but this time it was different as he was supposedly suffering. From that perspective, I think the "mercy-kill" argument works, but I agree that it should have been a bigger deal for the various Leaguers. Maybe this could have been an opportunity to bring J'onn back in. Those action figures are not going to sell themselves, and a Martian Mind-meld might have provided a better explantion of Grundy's suffering and perhaps a wish to be "put down". I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there. I just didn't think it all came together particularly well.

Yes, that could have made it more convincing. Jonn SHOULD have been involved in this episode.

But why did they even have to kill him in the first place? like, it just seemed violent and unnecessary. Why take the story down that path? it just seems like a really old fashioned attitude, like an old cowboy attitude, of, oh, lets put im out of his missery? thats the attitude THE JLU takes? who are they, george bush? you know what i'm saying? its just so, AHHHHHHHH. i really really wish they hadent gone there. its just disturbing.

SERIOUSLY, THE LEAGUE KILLS BAD GUYS NOW. NO, ITS TRUE. HOW IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT SUPERMAN DID TO DOOMSDAY IN 'A BETTER WORLD'???

and with this whole government subplot, it makes me start to think the league has too much power. I dont think they should kill. I think they should adopt a "No Kill" policy, and when they are left with no other alternative, they should atleast discuss, vote, philosophize, something, on it.

also, if there are certain member who are willing to kill (ie aquaman, orion, whoever, i dont know who does or doesnt, then they could be in the minority, and the could VOTE on a no kill policy, and the ones who still kill on occasion could be more carefully watched). seriously, i know its just a cartoon, but i think its a bad philosophy to be spreading to the youth of this country, that its okay for the good guys to kill, if its for the bad guy's own good. i mean, it was never made that clear that grundy was suffering all that much. they kind of just assumed it. AND ANYWAY, that seemed secondary to the fact that the League couldnt stop him, so they opted to kill him (oh and he's suffering too, so its for his own good). I DONT BUY IT. thats not the way superheros should act.

WHERE WAS BATMAN AND JONN???

I FIND IT ALL SO DISTURBING, and it sucks cause the episode would have been out standing had it not been for that turn of events. the ending ruined not only the episode, but my entire impression of the JLU. i think the JLU should resolve these issues, very clearly, in up coming episodes. seriously, this is the kind of turn of events in a show that could make me loose interest fast, just because of how disturbing, un-thought out, and just plain wrong it seems. peace.

[Supremus]

But why did they even have to kill him in the first place? like, it just seemed violent and unnecessary. Why take the story down that path? it just seems like a really old fashioned attitude, like an old cowboy attitudeI hear Timm & Co have been going to a lot of Bush rallies recently :)


(oh and he's suffering too, so its for his own good). I DONT BUY IT. thats not the way superheros should act.Would you have bought it if the suffering point had been explained better in the actual episode?

[Duke]

The thing is, Matt (can I call you that?), that right now, there's not much storytelling involved in JLU. Like I said in my previous post, I didn't watch The Terror Beyond, so the Grundy aspect of the story does nothing to me. The basic premise of the plot is sketchy: some college losers somehow manage to "resurrect" Solomon Grundy, and Hawkgirl returns. Thing is, her departure hasn't been felt, storyline-wise. For her return to be effective in the dramatic sense, she has to have been missed. She’s not. The League is doing fine without her, and seems to have gotten over her betrayal. Powerwise, she’s more than compensated for.

I agree wholeheartedly. The only clue we've gotten that the League misses her is when GL shouts "SHAYERA!" at Supergirl in "Initiation." Other than that, nothing. It would have been better if, perhaps, we saw GL and Vixen alone in a previous episode, with Vixen trying to be sexy for Jon, but Jon is thinking about HG. Maybe have an episode with Wonder Woman where she encounters a similar situation she faced in "Starcrossed."

Alternatively, maybe HG should have been absent the whole season. It's kind of like how Dick Grayson all-of-the-sudden appeared in TNBA, when we didn't even realize he was gone.


And for the battles themselves, it's not the animation, IMO: it's the whole execution— which would be more storyboarding and writing than animation. There's just no sense that these people are working as a team, or that they're even skilled; they're just punching randomly and ineffectively, buying time until the episode’s over.
Yea, the League definately has to work on its teamwork. I thought they did it pretty well in "Injustice for all" when everyone helped out each other, but it seems like nowadays teamwork basically means "You three go here and do this, and you five go there and this that."

[Hero Supreme]

(oh and he's suffering too, so its for his own good). I DONT BUY IT. thats not the way superheros should act.


Are you equally outraged by old yeller? I mean after all, that dog was a hero.

besides, they didnt actually KILL anyone. grundy's body was being controlled by magic. there was no grundy inside. they just release the magic hold over grundy's shell.

[Viper]

Not a bad ep. I enjoyed Vixen, she was fantastic with her changing into different animals.:) One other thing I have to say in big words...

Welcome back, Hawkgirl!!!:D :) :D

I'm very happy they brought her back after so long.:D

[Karkull]

Just saw the episode (Christmas party on Saturday), and I liked it.

THE GOOD:

1) Character interaction. Aquaman trying to rouse Hawkgirl out of her funk, John Stewart dealing with two women that he's attracted to, Vixen's jealously towards Hawkgirl.
2) The scene with the nerds was pretty funny. They were trying to gain power to crush their enemies, the circle was broken, and the magicks were misdirected into Grundy's corpse. It worked.
3) BTW, was I the only one to notice that two of those nerds were Keith and Jim from Rich Koslowski's 3 Geeks comics? Allen was absent, but I guess the writers didn't want to kill him (or didn't want him talking like Thor in a DC Animated show).

THE "BAD":

The AMAZO's deux ex machina backfire. I'll give them this: using AMAZO in this episode was going to be tricky. Apparently they wanted to show Grundy's new power level, and to do so they threw him up against AMAZO, who is the most powerful character on the show. It was handled as well as it could have been -- considering how Grundy was pretty much a power sponge at that point -- and AMAZO had a perfectly natural reaction to, for the first time in its existence, being on the losing end of a fight: it panicked. Had it stayed around, it would have easily transformed its body into Nth Metal (it absorbed its properties in Tabula Rasa, if I'm not mistaken), but why didn't it just use its duplication powers to duplicate Grundy's? Is AMAZO vulnerable to magic as well, or was it simply because it all happened so fast? Oy.


All of a sudden Stewart forgives her? I missed a few episodes, did something else happen to explain this? Or did he just say to himself,"It's a new season, and technically it's a new show. Why not just forget what happened before?"
Being mad at someone you love is one thing; running into that person after who knows how long and having your feelings for them smack you in the face is another. John's reaction was perfect.


Who was that Ghost Rider guy in the end teaser? It looked like Blight.
That looked like Atomic Skull to me.


I know this is hardly proof, but when Shayera came back from her encounter with Grundy, they showed her mace, nice and clean. Doesn't look like it just delivered a fatal blow to me. Hmmmmm.
Maybe Nth Metal is like teflon, or the blood burned off while it was electrified.

[DerekPowers]

I hear Timm & Co have been going to a lot of Bush rallies recently :)

Would you have bought it if the suffering point had been explained better in the actual episode?

MAYBE, but only if it was made WAY more clear, and there had been some healthy debate w/in the league about the morality issue involved with such a 'mercy killing'. also, involving the authorities, like the police, may have made it seem more on the up and up. i dont know, i didnt like it and felt it was an unnecessary turn of events for a show like JLU.

but the fact is that it wasnt explained very well, infact, i honestly felt the that the whole 'grundy is suffering, so its ok to kill him' came AFTER the fact that Grundy was now unstoppable, so they had to kill him. it really seemed that the league set out to kill him FIRST and foremost because he was unstoppable, and the suffering bit was secondary, almost a way to justify it. and the thing is, by the ending Grundy looked like he was ready to be reasoned with. HG's mace was working, so why kill him? it seemed to weaken him enough to control him, so why is it any different from any other time they had him taken to jail?

I just always remembered the btas episode 'His Silicon Soul', which was never my favorite episode, but it REALLY drove home the point that Batman DOES NOT KILL. period. and as a child, i liked that attitude. it made it much easier to put your trust in his character. I had the opposite reaction to "Wake the Dead". it was just, i dont know, i dont think i could look at the league in the same way unless they do some healthy explaining in the next few episodes.

and what really sucks is it was such an awesome episode till the third act.

am I alone here in feeling this way? come on people, who else feels the JLU SHOULD NOT KILL (with the small exceptions being like, Nazis during a WWII dogfight).

[bat313]

WHERE WAS BATMAN AND JONN???



I'm pretty sure they killed them to put them out of their misery , either that or they are rediculously protesting on some college campus :p

[bat313]

am I alone here in feeling this way? come on people, who else feels the JLU SHOULD NOT KILL (with the small exceptions being like, Nazis during a WWII dogfight).

On a serious note, if the JLU killed such villians as joker, Mongul, Darksied, ect... Then the villians would never be able to kill ever again. The problem with the whole DCUA is that we lock them up, they get out and kill, and we lock them up again. it defeats its own purpose in my opinoin. But thats my view on capital punishment, get rid of the bad guy = no more inconent deaths.

[Style]

On a serious note, if the JLU killed such villians as joker, Mongul, Darksied, ect... Then the villians would never be able to kill ever again. The problem with the whole DCUA is that we lock them up, they get out and kill, and we lock them up again. it defeats its own purpose in my opinoin. But thats my view on capital punishment, get rid of the bad guy = no more inconent deaths.
But JLU killing the bad guys themselves isn't capital punishment. A governing body and a governing body alone can decide if someone should die for their crimes, and that's if you do believe in capital punishment. JLU killing Joker or Mongol or Darkseid would be like the cops killing a perp. And cops should only kill a perp if they have no other option. Like say Tim Mcviegh- If the cops who apprehended him had no other choice but to shoot him, that's fine. But they were able to apprehend him without having to kill him. And that's what you gotta try to do.

And since so much of the League is Superpowered and invulnerable, they have to be held to higher standards. It would take quite a lot to have them legitimately say "We couldn't apprehend him, we had to kill him." So I think DerekPowers fears are warranted. After Grundy was weakened from the mace, they could have at least tried to take him into custody.

Bottom line: When the Justice League decides for themselves that killing a perp is better than taking him in when they could, Well, maybe the government would have a reason to be warry of them. That's how the Justice Lords got started on their road to corruption, you know.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

I hope they will have re-runs. I missed the episode, because of work.

[Fone Bone]

Okay, I know i'm abit late to jump in here with my review, so i'll keep it on the short side--

I liked this episode A LOT untill the ending. This episode started out really strong, imo. I loved the little business in the begining at Fate's place. And i loved all the HG stuff at Fate's Place, with Fate's wife, and all that stuff.

I LOVED Vixen. That was the best intro to a JLU character so far, perhaps tieing with GA's intro in 'Initiation'. Her character is really interesting.

ALL the heros in this ep werent useless. This is THE BEST example, so far in JLU, of the heros using their unique abilities effectively, without anyone seeming too weak or out of place. They all used their powers in an interesting way (including Superman!!!!!!!) and they all had something to contribute in the battle.

The dialogue here was great. It was starting to remind me of on of the previous dcau shows! I particularly liked Amazo's presence and how he decided to help the league out.

The story was essentially a HG/GL follow up story, so the thinness of the Grundy plot was ok, imo.

Here's what I didnt like:

I didnt like the college nerds resurrecting Grundy. Wouldve liked something more relevent there.

I HATED the ending. It ruined what could have been the best JLU ep so far. I'll say it again, THE ENDING RUINED THIS EPISODE (similar to how the ending in "injustice for all" also ruined an otherwise good episode). But here, the ending was worse, because of what it implied about the entire league. Let me ask: Just WHAT is the league's policy on KILLING?

I DID NOT LIKE the League acting as judge, jury and EXECUTIONER in this ep. it seemed so un-hero like. I mean, arent they supose to not kill unless its fully necessary? I thought Grundy was coming around in the ending, and could have been reasoned with. I didnt like how the League automatically decides to kill him, and i dont like how thats what they set out to do even before HG showed up (notice how HG says she has to stop the league from killing him).

I sincerely hope that they resolve this can of worms, now that they've opened it. in "the savage time", yeah, they killed Nazis, but that was WWII, so it seeemed to be an exceptional case. Here, they just decide to kill Grundy, which i find unacceptable and really unnessecarily violent for the story.

For example, what would BATMAN have done if he was involved in this episode? would he have been ok with the idea of simply "putting down" Solomon Grundy? it just seems like the JL shouldnt have that kind of authority. Remember Lois's reaction to when Superman gave Doomsday a lobotomy in "A Better World"? Well, that was MY reaction to the League's decission to kill Grundy. It just seemed to OUT OF CHARACTER for them, they are supose to be heros! This really upsets me, cause i think the whole undertone of the show has changed for me now. I use to think the Government was the bad guys here, but now i'm starting to qs whether the League has too much power and authority, and if they are using that power in the right way.

I think a much better way to have ended it would be if HG took Grundy to Fate's Place with her, or asked Dr. Fate if she could give Grundy her spot in his home. Or if she had to become Grundy's keeper some how, and didnt really return to the League full time (because of the public's response) and could have become more of a shadow member, keeping an eye on Grundy, you know? it would have been better than just killing him, GEEEEZ.

Anyway, anyone agree with me. I liked the first half of this episode a lot. i was probably the best dialogue and character stuff we've had all season, but the 'old yeller' ending just seemed way too out of character for the league, way to violent, and just plain unnecessary and un-hero like. Again, WHAT WOULD BATMAN HAVE DONE? WOULD HE HAVE KILLED GRUNDY OR AGREED TO THAT? I know Grundy is already dead, technically, but all the JLU heros/villians are ab-normal, so.

And also, i felt the ending just left a lot of things up in the air, it didnt resolve a lot of what was brought up. Like, i was really waiting for Amazo to return to earth at some point, i was just waiting for more to happen with HG, GL, and Vixen (loved the 'hate the beard' line, though).

Anyway, anyone else find the League's decision to KILL Grundy a little disturbing? This episode was really great except for that part and the ending also left a lot to be desired (it seemed rushed). peace.Raises hand. First thing I've agreed with you regarding JLU.

It would have been better had Hawkgirl and Fate decided to HELP Grundy rather than put him down. I feel the only reason Hawkgirl did it was because the rest of the league had already made up their minds and she had an obligation to do it. I didn't like the idea of his body just being a shell that had to be put down. It would have been better had Fate managed to awaken a part of the old Grundy and taken him to his tower with Hawkgirl and Amazo for two reasons: 1. Redemption is a great thing. The idea of making Grundy a semihero could have paid off handsomely in a later episode. It would be like Spock in Star Trek IV trying to regain his identity. 2. It would add another layer to the show and raises new questions if Fate had his own band of heroes without imput from the league who were considered criminals by some (Hawkgirl, Amazo, and Grundy ALL fit that bill) and have a COUPLE who have defeated the league in the past. That would have made the conspiracy story as interesting as Fearful Symmetry promised it to be by having a second league the goverment would try to control in case the JL ever lost it. A huge missed oppurtunity and the more I think about it the less I like it.

[Supremus]

Bottom line: When the Justice League decides for themselves that killing a perp is better than taking him in when they could, Well, maybe the government would have a reason to be warry of them. That's how the Justice Lords got started on their road to corruption, you know. I think slightly different rules apply in the DCAU. Any kind of vigilante behavior would be frowned upon in the real world, but in the DCAU we have tons of these superpowered demi-gods running around dispensing their own brand of justice, and the police and governments don't seem all that bothered about it, although recent JLU episodes seem to suggest certain people in high places are starting to get a little bit cranky.

Anyway, things were different for Grundy. The guy was technically dead, and he was entirely powered by evil magic. That makes him different from Luthor, Joker, Doomsday, etc, and since the realms of magic is not really within the jurisdiction of the regular police, I think it's fair enough that a gang of Leaguers, which included Dr Fate, should take the responsible decision in a case like this.

It would have been interesting if Batman had been around, though. Just like in the recent "Identity Crisis" series, he might have objected to killing Grundy. There could be some future conflict in this. It would be interesting to have Batman and HG go on a mission together, just the two of them. Having voted her out, Batman is probably not too happy to have her back in the first place, and particularly now that she goes around bashing people's skulls in. That could provide some very interesting character interaction, and some much needed discussion of the League's rules from what would most likely be the two most extreme views. Unless of course it written by McDuffie. In which case we will have a big battle, 3 or 4 lose plotlines, Amazo will accidentally mimic the characteristics of an acrophobiac and refuse to leave Fate's tower, Lobo will show up halfway through in a strange subplot about Batman missing having a sidekick, and the Batman-HG conflict will only be briefly touched upon and resolved in the last 2 minutes of the episode. The talkback for this episode will of course be extremely heated forcing Bird Boy to close it after just 3 pages :)

[DerekPowers]

Style '92 and Fone Bone, i agree completely. Very well put.

Here's the other thing too--when HG was in the sewer w/ Grundy, right before she, what, beheaded him??, she ASKS him to close his eyes, and he does, so obviously he wasnt completely out of control. she was able to calm him and pasify him.

I dont think them killing Grundy will ever sit right with me. And the fact that it really did seem like they set out to kill him (HG TWICE makes reference to that, first when she leaves Fate's tower to "get to grundy before the league kills him", and second when she says she wants to talk to him before Amazo teleports him into the sun), it just seems wrong. I mean, I was very surprised Superman didnt protest at all.

this episode has the best character interactions i've seen all season, it had the best dialogue, it had one of, if no the best introduction to a new Hero (vixen), and it all was ruined for me because of that turn of events. it sucks. sigh.

Fone Bone, your idea about Fate's band of heros is a good one, one i wish theyd have included grundy in. Its beyond me why they didnt, its a much better senerio than the league simply killing him. Or, maybe HG could have even convinced him to go back to his grave or a crypt or something, and it could have been her job to be his 'crypt keeper', so to speak, placing her back in the league, but giving her a limited role.

oh well. i just dont understand why they did that, and why they didnt just add Grundy to Dr. Fate's band of outcasts. It would have made so much more sense, and we wouldnt be left with these Justice Lords undertones.

Plus, the scenes in Dr. Fates tower were awesome, so its a real shame.

Oh, one more thing, about Amazo--someone else already mentioned this, but i want to reiderate it--didnt Amazo replicate HG's mace in "tabula rasa"? so why didnt he have the technology to beat Grundy?

peace.

[Fone Bone]

Style '92 and Fone Bone, i agree completely. Very well put.

Here's the other thing too--when HG was in the sewer w/ Grundy, right before she, what, beheaded him??, she ASKS him to close his eyes, and he does, so obviously he wasnt completely out of control. she was able to calm him and pasify him.

I dont think them killing Grundy will ever sit right with me. And the fact that it really did seem like they set out to kill him (HG TWICE makes reference to that, first when she leaves Fate's tower to "get to grundy before the league kills him", and second when she says she wants to talk to him before Amazo teleports him into the sun), it just seems wrong. I mean, I was very surprised Superman didnt protest at all.

this episode has the best character interactions i've seen all season, it had the best dialogue, it had one of, if no the best introduction to a new Hero (vixen), and it all was ruined for me because of that turn of events. it sucks. sigh.

Fone Bone, your idea about Fate's band of heros is a good one, one i wish theyd have included grundy in. Its beyond me why they didnt, its a much better senerio than the league simply killing him. Or, maybe HG could have even convinced him to go back to his grave or a crypt or something, and it could have been her job to be his 'crypt keeper', so to speak, placing her back in the league, but giving her a limited role.

oh well. i just dont understand why they did that, and why they didnt just add Grundy to Dr. Fate's band of outcasts. It would have made so much more sense, and we wouldnt be left with these Justice Lords undertones.

Plus, the scenes in Dr. Fates tower were awesome, so its a real shame. peace.It's a missed oppurtunity. I DO wish Batman was in the episode because while storywise I found it VERY interesting that the league was willing to do it I found it unbelievable that there wasn't someone to say "Hold up. This is serious. Let's think about this for a moment." Actions have consequences after all and if there are none it makes the idea of a "Justice" League pointless. I suppose the idea COULD be brought up in a future episode when the Government says the league is too powerful because they executed Grundy without a trial but the ending didn't make me think that was going to happen.

Again I don't object to it so much morally as the fact that it was done the easy way out and that NOT killing him could have made for some awesome storylines in the future.

[DerekPowers]

It's a missed oppurtunity. I DO wish Batman was in the episode because while storywise I found it VERY interesting that the league was willing to do it I found it unbelievable that there wasn't someone to say "Hold up. This is serious. Let's think about this for a moment." Actions have consequences after all and if there are none it makes the idea of a "Justice" League pointless. I suppose the idea COULD be brought up in a future episode when the Government says the league is too powerful because they executed Grundy without a trial but the ending didn't make me think that was going to happen.

Again I don't object to it so much morally as the fact that it was done the easy way out and that NOT killing him could have made for some awesome storylines in the future.

lets just hope that they DO bring all this up in future episodes (the sooner the better), and make it a really important part of the show.

hey, maybe by the end of the story arc going, the league will become the bad guys?? all i know is, they really need to address killing and the league's stance on it, and show atleast some dissagreements within the league. they opened this can of worms, and i hope they resolve it in a GOOD way.

NO JUSTICE LORDS!! JUSTICE LEAGUE!!!

BATMAN--TEACH THE LEAGUE YOUR PHILOSOPHY!! SUPERMAN, WHAT HAPPENED? HOW COULD YOU LET THEM JUST EXECUTE GRUNDY?

geez, i dont think i can talk my way around this one or apply some kind of reasoning to it, it just is what it is, and it makes me not like JLU nearly as much as i did. its just careless and, i dont know, its wrong and it was treated with such a non-chalant attitude. it just changes the entire direction of the show, imo, and the whole notion of superheros. the show is forever change, imo, and it makes me like it less.

NO KILLING! HEROS DONT KILL! DIDNT THEY SEE "HIS SILICON SOUL"? HOW ABOUT "A BETTER WORLD"?? WHAT ABOUT "THE IRON GIANT"???

I think it's high time the JL starts making it's stance on these kinds of issues more clearly outlined. And the perfect time is now, what with the government story arc and now the 'mercy' killing of Solomon Grundy. They need to lay a better foundation (something they should have done in "Initiation"). This all needs to be CLEARED up, it needs to be transparent and taken very seriously, imo. or else it really just COMPLETELY changes what superheros stand for, and since JLU is, in a way, the ULTIMATE superhero show, id hate for this to become the definitive status quo for superheros in this generation. peace.

[Fone Bone]

Again I don't so much object to it morally as it WAS an interesting development but there was no thought put into or any consequences of any kind. That's why I loved Buffy and Angel. Killing people and even certain demons (see Merl's murder is That Old Gang of Mine) had repurcussions. (Cept for Supersymmetry, which totally sucked).

If this is brought up again in the future I won't be as bothered. I AM more bothered by the waste of story potential by killing off Grundy.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


am I alone here in feeling this way? come on people, who else feels the JLU SHOULD NOT KILL (with the small exceptions being like, Nazis during a WWII dogfight).
IMO, that's not a small exception. Either the JLU should be allowed to kill people or they shouldn't. Your exception really just says, "The Justice League should not kill unless the people involved are really really really bad" (or, maybe, "the JLU should not kill unless I can rationalize it.")

Even if you do want to give them that loophole, who's to say that Grundy wasn't really really really bad? What would you need to see Grundy do to decide the JLU is "allowed" to kill him (and would you really want/need to see that)? If you're willing to draw that line, can you ever say with any kind of certainty that the JLU should not kill?

Finally, has everybody here forgotten the small scale flap that erupted over this same question when they seemingly slaughtered the Imperium in "Secret Origins" by exposing them to sunlight?

-- Ed/Ace

[Fone Bone]

Howdy,


IMO, that's not a small exception. Either the JLU should be allowed to kill people or they shouldn't. Your exception really just says, "The Justice League should not kill unless the people involved are really really really bad" (or, maybe, "the JLU should not kill unless I can rationalize it.")

Even if you do want to give them that loophole, who's to say that Grundy wasn't really really really bad? What would you need to see Grundy do to decide the JLU is "allowed" to kill him (and would you really want/need to see that)? If you're willing to draw that line, can you ever say with any kind of certainty that the JLU should not kill?

Finally, has everybody here forgotten the small scale flap that erupted over this same question when they seemingly slaughtered the Imperium in "Secret Origins" by exposing them to sunlight?

-- Ed/AceI haven't. Even Batman killed an alien.:ack:

[Bystander]

My problem with the League killing Grundy in this episode was that it was COMPLETELY UNNECESSACARY and I'm suprised no one else has mentioned it, I mean by the time Grundy was killed he was already defeated, did you see him he was down and out and not even able to get up. He wasn't a threat anymore at that time they could have easilly transported him to the moon or some other offworld place, that way they wouldn't have had to kill him. I mean what they did was like cops corning a perp then when the perp was down on the street bleeding and unarmed the cop walking up and shooting him in the head. I find it strange that the League made a big fuss in the terror beyond about sacrificing Grundy to save the world but had no problem killing him here.

[Allen CARR]

Solomon Grundy was already dead, hes a Zombie remeber! aand besides he was an undead Zombie, and he would have killed and kiiled more if he lives, they had no choice.

[paulie]

I feel like it's more complicated than yes/no to killing, especially in this case. I think "The Terror Beyond" established that what Grundy really wanted was to be at peace..."then Grundy gets his reward"...I think THAT was the complicit Grundy we saw when he closed his eyes...combined with his un-dead nature, Grundy isn't a typical bad guy, which makes things less clear and more interesting...

yeah, I can totally understand how that wasn't established, and it's just another symptom of JLU's 30-minute syndrome. In this case, for me I guess, the facial expressions and reactions of the League were good enough to convey that it wasn't an easy act to stomach.

Slightly OT: I still get a kick out of Aquaman's "find those responsible...then dig more graves" line, heh.

[Knight]

but the fact is that it wasnt explained very well, infact, i honestly felt the that the whole 'grundy is suffering, so its ok to kill him' came AFTER the fact that Grundy was now unstoppable, so they had to kill him. it really seemed that the league set out to kill him FIRST and foremost because he was unstoppable, Describe to me how the battle with Grundy was any different from any other fight the League has had against other opponents to make this instance one where they where trying to kill as opposed to trying to subdue someone? I don't see it. They fought Grundy like they fight everyone else and that's until they go down.

Certain members of The League take lives that's just how it is. Everyone is in a uproar over Hawkgirl taking out Grundy but no one complained when she delivered the killing blow to Ichthultu in The Terror Beyond.




Slightly OT: I still get a kick out of Aquaman's "find those responsible...then dig more graves" line, heh.
I liked that line too. Aquaman was ready to make whoever disturbed Grundy's grave pay.Someone had just officially pissed off the King of Atlantis.

[Crimson]

anyone else find the League's decision to KILL Grundy a little disturbing? Not in the least. The episode made it abundantly clear that this was not Grundy, but a soulless animated shell that was not only a great danger, but also in great pain. In fact, I thought the episode stacked the deck so as to avoid any possible gray area, or moral confusion. 'Killing' 'Grundy' was no different than destroying a robot, or staking a vampire.

I do, however, find it mildly disturbing that you think killing German soldiers -- who may or may not have supported Nazi ideology, and most likely were simply following orders -- is acceptable, but killing a rampaging, soulless husk is not.

[Fone Bone]

Describe to me how the battle with Grundy was any different from any other fight the League has had against other opponents to make this instance one where they where trying to kill as opposed to trying to subdue someone? I don't see it. They fought Grundy like they fight everyone else and that's until they go down.

Certain members of The League take lives that's just how it is. Everyone is in a uproar over Hawkgirl taking out Grundy but no one complained when she delivered the killing blow to Ichthultu in The Terror Beyond.I don't blame Hawkgirl. The league had pretty much decided before she got there and she was just taking responsibility for her friend. I'm a little ticked at Superman and GL but I understand why Hawkgirl did what she did. Grundy WAS her friend and in her mind she was putting him out of his misery. But I doubt the rest of the league saw it that way.

On another note, I seem to be the only person in the universe who thought it was great how Grundy was resurrected by a group of nerds. It was a very powerful message about screwing with forces that are beyond comprehension when you're a bored teenager and I thought it was handled brilliantly here. ANOTHER nod to Buffy.

[paulie]

I liked that line too. Aquaman was ready to make whoever disturbed Grundy's grave pay.Someone had just officially pissed off the King of Atlantis.You know, there's 2 things that go into a great line: the line itself, and the delivery of the line. It's a cool line, for sure, but Scott Rummell gives it juuuust enough menace to leave no doubt he's serious...

Boy, the VA in this episode was so good!

[Bystander]

Scince my last post was on the bottom of the last page I guess people missed it but what is your opinion of the point I brought up.

My problem with the League killing Grundy in this episode was that it was COMPLETELY UNNECESSACARY and I'm suprised no one else has mentioned it, I mean by the time Grundy was killed he was already defeated, did you see him he was down and out and not even able to get up. He wasn't a threat anymore at that time they could have easilly transported him to the moon or some other offworld place, that way they wouldn't have had to kill him. I mean what they did was like cops corning a perp then when the perp was down on the street bleeding and unarmed the cop walking up and shooting him in the head. I find it strange that the League made a big fuss in the terror beyond about sacrificing Grundy to save the world but had no problem killing him here.

[tedcassidy]

I really liked this episode! I thought the obvious nod to Marvel's team the Defender's was very cool, and I agree with a previous post that said they should give this team a series of it's own, but I'd like them to bring Grundy back to life and have him be on the this team as well. Dr. Fate (Dr. Strange), Solomon Grundy (the Hulk), Aquaman (Submariner), Amazo (Silver Surfer), Vixen (Hellcat), and throw Hawgirl in as well. I think it would make for a VERY interesting team,and a great new series! Lot's of opportunities for guest stars, etc. too.

I also thought Vixen was great in this episode. I thought her powers translated very well visually on to the tv screen, and it was fun to see her go up against Grundy. I thought it was EXTREMELY COOL to see Superman and Grundy in such an all out knock down drag out fight, as it should be. I mean if Wonder Woman can take Superman out like she did in an episode of Justice League, which I thought really stunk, then Solomon Grundy should be able to go toe to toe with him very well indeed. I mean, he wasn't born yesterday y'know.....

[Fone Bone]

I really liked this episode! I thought the obvious nod to Marvel's team the Defender's was very cool, and I agree with a previous post that said they should give this team a series of it's own, but I'd like them to bring Grundy back to life and have him be on the this team as well. Dr. Fate (Dr. Strange), Solomon Grundy (the Hulk), Aquaman (Submariner), Amazo (Silver Surfer), Vixen (Hellcat), and throw Hawgirl in as well. I think it would make for a VERY interesting team,and a great new series! Lot's of opportunities for guest stars, etc. too.

I also thought Vixen was great in this episode. I thought her powers translated very well visually on to the tv screen, and it was fun to see her go up against Grundy. I thought it was EXTREMELY COOL to see Superman and Grundy in such an all out knock down drag out fight, as it should be. I mean if Wonder Woman can take Superman out like she did in an episode of Justice League, which I thought really stunk, then Solomon Grundy should be able to go toe to toe with him very well indeed. I mean, he wasn't born yesterday y'know.....He was born on a Monday.

[JLfan4life]

bystander, the way i look at the situation is like this, this grundy was a zombie, not the grundy from terror beyond. the grundy from terror beyond wouldn't have punched shayera through a wall. there was nothing of the original grundy left. he was just a mindless zombie causing destruction and had to be dealt with. he was hurt at the end because of the hit from the mace. if they would have let him go, he could have revived later and caused more destruction somewhere else, so they had to get rid of him. i guess the league looked at is as something that had to be done so that he wouldn't hurt anyone else, kind of like what the GL corp was willing to do in the Return.

[DerekPowers]

Howdy,


IMO, that's not a small exception. Either the JLU should be allowed to kill people or they shouldn't. Your exception really just says, "The Justice League should not kill unless the people involved are really really really bad" (or, maybe, "the JLU should not kill unless I can rationalize it.")

Even if you do want to give them that loophole, who's to say that Grundy wasn't really really really bad? What would you need to see Grundy do to decide the JLU is "allowed" to kill him (and would you really want/need to see that)? If you're willing to draw that line, can you ever say with any kind of certainty that the JLU should not kill?

Finally, has everybody here forgotten the small scale flap that erupted over this same question when they seemingly slaughtered the Imperium in "Secret Origins" by exposing them to sunlight?

-- Ed/Ace

actually, I dont condone the JL killing in ANY senerio, except if its in self defense or as a last resort. The reason i said that about the Nazis wasnt me saying its ok for the league to kill Nazis (infact, in the original savage time talkback i'm pretty sure one of my big complaints WAS the fact that the league killed in that episode), only that its VERY clear that the League did kill in that ep, and so i always just kind of made that the exception. It was WWII, it was Nazis, it was in the past (ie, it already happened, in a way) i was just stating that thats the only real exception i was willing to make. It was like, i dont want the league to kill, but if i have to swallow it, then Nazi's in the middle of ww2, yeah, okay, i can swallow that if its the only time. In other words, i could let that one slide if it was the only time. thats what i meant by bringing it up.

the aliens in secret origins was also disturbing, although when it aired i didnt even think twice about it (i guess i de-humanized the aliens). it was only after people on the boards brought it up that i realized it was still killing.

Obviously theres a lot of greyness in this area, which is exactly why i think the topic should be brought up on the show.

The killing of solomon grundy, i feel, was unnecessary, not to mention the whole episode had the undertone of "Hawkgirl needs to get to grundy before the league KILLS him", which was strange.

THE LEAGUE SHOULD NOT KILL BAD GUYS.

and yes, i agree with everyone who said Grundy was beaten by the ending, there was no reason to execute him at that point.

anyway, i think the league's policy on Killing needs to be brought up on the show and clear lines need to be drawn. i think its an interesting subject and could make an interesting story in JLU. peace.

[tedcassidy]

Hey Fone Bone, yesterday was Sunday, y'know?.... It was supposed to be a joke...... oh, well. I still think this was a cool episode!:)

[Allen CARR]

Listen, Grundy was a monster who had already killed a kid, and who knows who else. I dun mind Hawkgirl doin what she did,Grundy would of just regained his strength and killed again folks, its a cartoon, stop getting all into it.

[Supremus]

Scince my last post was on the bottom of the last page I guess people missed it but what is your opinion of the point I brought up.The difference is that Grundy in TTB was a sentient being who took a decision to sacrifice himself. He was a hero. The Grundy from WTD was just a mindless killing machine. It wasn't the real Grundy, just his tormented shell powered by dark magic, and if we are supposed to believe he was suffering, then it makes sense to put him out of his misery and give him peace. As I mentioned before, my problem with this scenario is that it didn't come across particularly well in the episode that Grundy was really suffering.

As for whether or not it was necessarry to "kill" him, I guess it was. Grundy was dead, and he had to go back to that state again. I am not sure that HG actually really bashed his brains in. It was probably the case that the magic that held Grundy together was disrupted when she hit him, and he probably just disappared like a vampire on Buffy would have. The bottom line is that the guy was already dead. HG just restored the cosmic balance or whatever, she didn't commit murder.

[I-Am That Is]

Scince my last post was on the bottom of the last page I guess people missed it but what is your opinion of the point I brought up.I don't think he really was down for the count. Grundy was LETTING her kill him.

[Knight]

anyway, i think the league's policy on Killing needs to be brought up on the show and clear lines need to be drawn. i think its an interesting subject and could make an interesting story in JLU. peace.
I do believe Superman stated his stance on killing in A Better World. When Batman told him there was a line they had to cross to beat the Lords he pretty much said he wouldn't cross that line and fight ruthlessly like they do. Now does that represent the whole League I'm not sure.

[Spectre]

Hello... my name is Spectre. This is my first post here, though I've lurked for a long time. So be gentle. :D

Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, there are already members of the Justice League that posess a willingness to 'cross the line', albeit in extreme circumstances. Aquaman, for example, essentially killed his brother Orm by refusing to pull him up from the cliff in 'The Enemy Below'. I believe The Question also occasionally concludes that death is the best solution to a predicament.

Nevertheless, the majority of the League seem firmly against killing, at least in principle, and this philosophy is thus applied to the League as a whole. This is seen time and time again. Batman is of course against it, Supergirl is horrified at the suggestion of it, Superman can't bring himself to it, etc. There are, of course, situations where lethal force cannot be avoided. We can excuse the downing of Thanegarian fighters in 'Starcrossed' because it was war and the stakes were high. I even think that killing Hro could have been justified under the circumstances, though of course every step to avoid it should have been and was taken.

So where does that place Hawkgirl's killing of Solomon Grundy? And yes, I do in fact think she killed him. Her mace wasn't bloody when she came out of the sewers, true- but neither was it ever bloody when she was smacking Grundy around on the surface. The energy field the mace generates all but negates the penetrating capabilities of its spikes, making any blow it delivers purely concussive and spell-shattering. And if there was blood, she could have cleaned the mace in the water first.

Anyway, the point is whether Grundy's killing is justifiable or not. Given the damage he had caused, and the fact that he was essentially a shell, a focus for the chaos magics fueling him, I can see a valid case for Shayera delivering her fatal blow. Had Grundy come across as nothing but a soulless engine of destruction for the entirety of the episode, it would have been perfectly logical- after all, the League has no qualms destroying robots, lava beasts, and other magical minions. Why should a brainless, heartless zombie be any different?

But there was that shot at the end... where Grundy was weak, and Shayera approached him. He looked pitifully up at her... she told him to "Close your eyes," and he did so.

This scene disrupts all attempts at justification because it suggests, however faintly, that something of the old Grundy was still alive beneath all the boiling rage and chaos. It reminds us of Grundy's first death in 'The Terror Beyond', where his life was fading in Hawkgirl's presence. Even if his weakness was due to exhaustion, it still elicits a sympathetic response from the viewers. It makes us wonder if he isn't past the point of redemption, after all... and makes us wonder why Shayera, who knows a great deal about being weak and pitiful, didn't see that, or intentionally ignored it.

Her allusion to 'Old Yeller' isn't quite right here, and if 'Wake the Dead' had totally mirrored that movie, the ending would have been much better. At the very end of the movie, it's obvious that Old Yeller is no longer himself: he is deeply afflicted with rabies, the maddening disease making him feral and ferocious to the very people that had loved him and raised him. Thus, the wildness and the loss of mind make it totally acceptable for the boy (whose name escapes me at the moment) to put him out of his misery.

This is how 'Wake the Dead' should have ended, if we were going to have Shayera killing Grundy. He shouldn't have been weak and pitiful when she found him; he should have still been angry and fierce. Admittedly, the blows she dealt him would have to have had an effect; but there should still have been a ferocity in his manner towards her, even if he lacked the strength to fight her anymore. We should have been utterly convinced that the Solomon Grundy we knew and loved was gone for good, and nothing remained but madness and hate. Then Hawkgirl could have swung her mace with impunity. As it is, we are left wondering if Grundy was past help at the end, and that casts doubt on Shayera's actions.

[Hero Supreme]

maybe of mice and men is a better analogy than old yeller.

[Style]

Welcome Spectre! You make a good point about Grundy's final demonor. It also suggested to me he wasn't totally gone.

I'm starting to wish they didn't use Grundy at all to facillitate Hawkgirl's return. The whole thing is just so... uncomfortable, at best.

[Supremus]

This is how 'Wake the Dead' should have ended, if we were going to have Shayera killing Grundy. He shouldn't have been weak and pitiful when she found him; he should have still been angry and fierce. Admittedly, the blows she dealt him would have to have had an effect; but there should still have been a ferocity in his manner towards her, even if he lacked the strength to fight her anymore. We should have been utterly convinced that the Solomon Grundy we knew and loved was gone for good, and nothing remained but madness and hate. Then Hawkgirl could have swung her mace with impunity. As it is, we are left wondering if Grundy was past help at the end, and that casts doubt on Shayera's actions. Maybe, but let's assume the real Grundy personality surfaced briefly as HG prepared to kill him. Wouldn't it make sense that Grundy felt trapped in the killing machine he had become, and that he wanted to go back to being dead? Remember how at the end of TTB Grundy wanted to be reunited with his soul. HG wasn't too keen on the idea of souls, but maybe Grundy did indeed go to a better place and knew that's where he belonged. Add that to b.t.'s comments that Grundy was suffering, and it all makes sense. Had evil-Grundy recovered, old-Grundy would once again have been supressed and trapped. The real Grundy was never going to come back to life. The wounded Grundy's demeanor didn't ask Hawkgirl to spare him. He was ready to go back to his soul. That's what I conclude from the vague evidence we got from the episode, anyway.

[Spectre]

Thanks for the welcome, Styl92! For the record, you're always easy to pick out in a Talkback because of your distinctive avatar, and I always know that the resulting post will be witty, insightful, or both.

Grundy's death aside, I really did like 'Wake the Dead'. The scenes in Fate's tower were priceless, not to mention Fate himself; the good doctor has always been one of my favorite characters in the DCAU. I also continue to marvel at just how much Aquaman doesn't suck in this series. He's so utterly removed from the deadweight he was in Superfriends that it's striking. :eek:

Superman also didn't come across as too underpowered for the most part. Of course, he had trouble with Grundy, but Grundy was more powerful this time around than he had been in the past. Plus, when Supes was finally able to get some solid hits in, you could tell they were felt.

Vixen was brilliantly introduced, and the whole 'channeling animal spirits' gig was pulled off quite well. I especially liked the scene where she healed herself by channeling the snake. That was... slinky. ;)


maybe of mice and men is a better analogy than old yeller.

Yet another literary reference that goes over my head. What's that story about?

[b.t.]

wow...who knew this ep would spark such a "euthanasia: good or bad?" debate! last thing in the world I expected, that's for dang sure....

the way WE see it: grundy was (as some here have pointed out) basically an empty shell, pulled from, well, heaven, i guess, against his will...think of his non-stop roaring as translating to "DAMMIT! I WAS AT PEACE, RE-UNITED WITH MY SOUL AT LONG LAST, BUT NOW I'M BACK IN THIS SODDING MONSTER BODY!! KILL ME!! KILL ME NOW!!"

now, maybe supremus is right, and we didn't get that point across properly (though lotsa people here seem to have gotten it)...blame it on me, if you like...possibly mark hamill coulda sold it with more emotion-packed grunting and screaming;)....

right, the "old yeller" comparison doesn't QUITE match up exactly...we toyed with the idea of him still "ggrrr"-ing right up until the moment she whacked him, but thought the silent bowing of his head would be more poignant (i still think it was the right choice)....anyhow, as someone here pointed out, he was ALLOWING her to kill him, to end his misery...it's what he wanted all along.

but, really, the "old yeller" comparison DOES work in this way: shayera was to all extents and purposes putting down a very sick dog. PERIOD.


and now, just to throw some more gasoline on the fire, i have to say the whole "heroes should never ever kill" rule just doesn't sit well with me....i think it's a decent rule in THEORY, and certainly i think we need to honor it for the most part for the sake of the younger members of our audience, BUT...

say a bad guy's got a knife at an innocent victim's throat....a cop draws his gun, points it at perp, tells perp to drop his weapon...perp not only doesn't drop the knife, he starts to slash at the victim....if the cop DOESN'T shoot the bad guy at that point, he's not doing his job, as far as i'm concerned.

now, obviously that's an extreme example, and not really applicable to the fantasy world of jlu....and i'm not saying the jlu should be issued a carte blanche "license to kill" (and trust me, they WON'T), but i think in extraordinary circumstances, use of deadly force COULD concievably be justified...i didn't have a problem with them roasting the invaders in "secret origins", for instance, and blowing up all them luftwaffe pilots, to halt their slaughter of the allied troops? okay by me.

[Style]

Thanks for the welcome, Styl92! For the record, you're always easy to pick out in a Talkback because of your distinctive avatar, and I always know that the resulting post will be witty, insightful, or both.


You're going to make friends here real fast!;) :D

[Spectre]

Well put, Mr. Timm. Part of me is still tickled by the fact that you frequent this forum as much as you do, given how busy you must obviously be. Still, I suppose 'busy' for an artist/animator is about as good a 'busy' as you can get.

And I agree- in extreme circumstances, killing is sometimes a necessity, and the Justice League shouldn't shirk from that. Both of the examples you listed were instances of utter, open war, and in wartime certain moral ambiguities tend to crystalize one way or the other. As I was mentioning before, 'Starcrossed' is another example of this.

[Style]

right, the "old yeller" comparison doesn't QUITE match up exactly...we toyed with the idea of him still "ggrrr"-ing right up until the moment she whacked him, but thought the silent bowing of his head would be more poignant (i still think it was the right choice)....anyhow, as someone here pointed out, he was ALLOWING her to kill him, to end his misery...it's what he wanted all along.
I see your point b.t., and frankly I would be hard pressed to suggest a way it could have been handled better. But the quiet Grundy at death just could be read that good Grundy had resurfaced and that maybe she shoulda tried to console him... I dunno.
as a side note, I will allow you the right to be "god" of your DCAU, but the religious guy in me still says that if Grundy was a ruthless mobster in his former life, then his soul probably isn't in heaven. :evil: In which case, he might find it to be a reprieve to be away from his sould. ehh, I guess God gives special dispensation to zombies...


and now, just to throw some more gasoline on the fire, i have to say the whole "heroes should never ever kill" rule just doesn't sit well with me....i think it's a decent rule in THEORY, and certainly i think we need to honor it for the most part for the sake of the younger members of our audience, BUT...

say a bad guy's got a knife at an innocent victim's throat....a cop draws his gun, points it at perp, tells perp to drop his weapon...perp not only doesn't drop the knife, he starts to slash at the victim....if the cop DOESN'T shoot the bad guy at that point, he's not doing his job, as far as i'm concerned.

now, obviously that's an extreme example, and not really applicable to the fantasy world of jlu....and i'm not saying the jlu should be issued a carte blanche "license to kill" (and trust me, they WON'T), but i think in extraordinary circumstances, use of deadly force COULD concievably be justified...i didn't have a problem with them roasting the invaders in "secret origins", for instance, and blowing up all them luftwaffe pilots, to halt their slaughter of the allied troops? okay by me.
I guess it's a point of when Batman's rules stop applying to the league at large. Still, Justice Lord Superman probably coulda found a way to stop Luthor without resorting to lethal force, and if he had, that universe coulda gone down a different route.

I geuss I don't want to see the real Superman become a bad guy too.

[Spectre]

There comes a point where you have to put your foot down at what constitutes a 'killing' as opposed to mere 'destruction'. Obviously, robots are fair game. And what about those magma creatures from 'Ultimatum'? They seemed like sentient beings, but Aquaman's word that they were bad news was apparently sufficient enough for Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman to join him in tearing them apart. I suppose in many cases it comes down to personal judgment.

Still, I wouldn't worry about Supes, Styl. If he can't even make himself kill Mongul, I doubt he'll descend to Justice Lord Superman's level of brutality.

[Style]

now, maybe supremus is right, and we didn't get that point across properly (though lotsa people here seem to have gotten it)...blame it on me, if you like...possibly mark hamill coulda sold it with more emotion-packed grunting and screaming;)....


Well, that's for dang sure. I mean, Luke Solomon Skyjoker is the greatest actor ever...;)

[Squall]

Well, I've been working lots of overtime due to the Christmas rush, so even though I recorded this episode on tape Saturday night, I didn't get to watch it until tonight. I've read a few random comments, but I haven't read them all, so if I mention something that's already come up, sorry for dragging the dead horse. :)

What an awesome episode! :D This is the kind of episode that I was hoping all of JLU would be. It builds on continuity (B:TAS/TNBA/S:TAS/JL), which is very important to me, and doesn't use too many JL members all at once either. I thought it was well written as well.

To the complaints about Vixen saving the single boy from a damaged building -- why was that a big deal? We only got to see clips of the JL's fight with Grundy, and I always assume during fights like this that we never get to see everything that's going on. It's like the JL members take turns during fights like this -- some of the members face the threat, and some of the members try to protect innocent people; then, they periodically switch out during the fight. I bet Vixen saved more than just that one boy, and that Superman and Green Lantern also saved innocent people as well (while the other two were attacking Grundy). No problem! :)

Also, at first I, too, thought Aquaman was being unusally chauvanistic and insulting to Hawkgirl, but then I realized when Dr. Fate said "I told you that wouldn't work" to Aquaman that Aquaman didn't really mean it -- he was just trying to get Hawkgirl riled up and angry, to bring out the warrior in her. :p

Yeah, AMAZO's attack on Grundy, and his inability to beat Grundy, did seem a little too easy to pull off, but at least it was well conceived. I would have been angry if Grundy had beaten AMAZO! But, Grundy absorbing AMAZO's power was, somehow, acceptable to me. In the end, AMAZO retreated for a very good reason. At first, I thought, "Why doesn't he just turn into Nth metal and kill Grundy?" Then I realized, AMAZO didn't want to kill Grundy, just put him far away from everyone else. (Maybe he was going to instantaneously transport Grundy to some isolated, uninhabited planet at the edge of the Galaxy, where he could go on rampages and not hurt anyone.)

P.S. -- It's good to finally see JLU get a standard intro! If Hawkgirl puts the costume back on and starts living in the Watchtower II, it'll need the minor modification later of having Hawkgirl in costume in her profile shot. I just hope this standard intro is retrofitted now onto the intro of the past 7 JLU episodes for future reruns, and DVD releases. :)

Random thought for the episode -- wouldn't it have been funny if Calendar Girl had interrupted the fashion show? Green Lantern and Vixen would have made short work of her! :p Actually, I'm glad she didn't -- I always hated that Batman villian.

[Spectre]

I liked Calendar Girl... :shrug:

[DerekPowers]

wow...who knew this ep would spark such a "euthanasia: good or bad?" debate! last thing in the world I expected, that's for dang sure....

the way WE see it: grundy was (as some here have pointed out) basically an empty shell, pulled from, well, heaven, i guess, against his will...think of his non-stop roaring as translating to "DAMMIT! I WAS AT PEACE, RE-UNITED WITH MY SOUL AT LONG LAST, BUT NOW I'M BACK IN THIS SODDING MONSTER BODY!! KILL ME!! KILL ME NOW!!"

now, maybe supremus is right, and we didn't get that point across properly (though lotsa people here seem to have gotten it)...blame it on me, if you like...possibly mark hamill coulda sold it with more emotion-packed grunting and screaming;)....

right, the "old yeller" comparison doesn't QUITE match up exactly...we toyed with the idea of him still "ggrrr"-ing right up until the moment she whacked him, but thought the silent bowing of his head would be more poignant (i still think it was the right choice)....anyhow, as someone here pointed out, he was ALLOWING her to kill him, to end his misery...it's what he wanted all along.

but, really, the "old yeller" comparison DOES work in this way: shayera was to all extents and purposes putting down a very sick dog. PERIOD.


and now, just to throw some more gasoline on the fire, i have to say the whole "heroes should never ever kill" rule just doesn't sit well with me....i think it's a decent rule in THEORY, and certainly i think we need to honor it for the most part for the sake of the younger members of our audience, BUT...

say a bad guy's got a knife at an innocent victim's throat....a cop draws his gun, points it at perp, tells perp to drop his weapon...perp not only doesn't drop the knife, he starts to slash at the victim....if the cop DOESN'T shoot the bad guy at that point, he's not doing his job, as far as i'm concerned.

now, obviously that's an extreme example, and not really applicable to the fantasy world of jlu....and i'm not saying the jlu should be issued a carte blanche "license to kill" (and trust me, they WON'T), but i think in extraordinary circumstances, use of deadly force COULD concievably be justified...i didn't have a problem with them roasting the invaders in "secret origins", for instance, and blowing up all them luftwaffe pilots, to halt their slaughter of the allied troops? okay by me.

I dont think its a matter of "heros should never kill", more of a 'heros should never kill unless it's absolutely necessary or in self defense'.

The whole grundy as a rabid dog, lame horse, whatever, just doesnt hold water, imo, simply because of what was actually in the episode. from my standpoint, it seemed the League had intended on killing Grundy before any of Dr. Fate's insights about him being a ball of evil magic, before any of that stuff. HG made reference to the league killing him, twice, which is why she wanted to get there and try and stop that from happening. Whats with that?

Let me ask you this: What is the difference between the League deciding to kill (even if it is a 'mercy kill') Solomon Grundy and Justice Lords Superman lobotomizing Doomsday? there really is no difference. Doomsday would have just gone on killing people and destroying the city, so does that make Justice Lord Superman's actions right? Grundy atleast was begining to come around in the ending, even if it was only because he got the beating of his life.

I just found it shocking. It ruined (for me atleast) what would easily be the best JLU episode to date.

I dont know, call me old fashioned, i just dont think the JL should kill at their discression. i mean, not even one of the league members present raised the point of if they should or shouldnt do it. they could have atleast weighed the pros and cons of such an extreme action. the whole thing was just too "Justice Lords" for me. i hope it is dealt with in future eps, especially w/ the whole JL vs the big bad government story line. now i may just start rooting for the big bad government :shrug: . well, probably not, but i still am disturbed by that episode. peace.

[Allen CARR]

buddy its just a cartton for one. and also, how many people do you think the goverment in the Jlu haven' killed yet. First of all, If Superman or Gl were intent on killing Grundy, they would of found a way believe me, to do it before Hawkgirl came.

[MJC]

I dont think its a matter of "heros should never kill", more of a 'heros should never kill unless it's absolutely necessary or in self defense'.

The whole grundy as a rabid dog, lame horse, whatever, just doesnt hold water, imo, simply because of what was actually in the episode. from my standpoint, it seemed the League had intended on killing Grundy before any of Dr. Fate's insights about him being a ball of evil magic, before any of that stuff. HG made reference to the league killing him, twice, which is why she wanted to get there and try and stop that from happening. Whats with that?

Let me ask you this: What is the difference between the League deciding to kill (even if it is a 'mercy kill') Solomon Grundy and Justice Lords Superman lobotomizing Doomsday? there really is no difference. Doomsday would have just gone on killing people and destroying the city, so does that make Justice Lord Superman's actions right? Grundy atleast was begining to come around in the ending, even if it was only because he got the beating of his life.

I just found it shocking. It ruined (for me atleast) what would easily be the best JLU episode to date.

I dont know, call me old fashioned, i just dont think the JL should kill at their discression. i mean, not even one of the league members present raised the point of if they should or shouldnt do it. they could have atleast weighed the pros and cons of such an extreme action. the whole thing was just too "Justice Lords" for me. i hope it is dealt with in future eps, especially w/ the whole JL vs the big bad government story line. now i may just start rooting for the big bad government :shrug: . well, probably not, but i still am disturbed by that episode. peace.What do you think they should have done about Grundy? It was obvious that they couldn't beat him up and put him in jail. IMO, they didn't seem to have much of a choice...either deal with him now or risk (more?) innocent people being killed. Not that I think the league should go around killing criminals, but I don't see what else they could've done in this situation.

[Duke]

What do you think they should have done about Grundy? It was obvious that they couldn't beat him up and put him in jail. IMO, they didn't seem to have much of a choice...either deal with him now or risk (more?) innocent people being killed. Not that I think the league should go around killing criminals, but I don't see what else they could've done in this situation.
Have Dr. Fate transport him somewhere safe until they decide what to do with him?

[Squall]

Well put, Mr. Timm. Part of me is still tickled by the fact that you frequent this forum as much as you do, given how busy you must obviously be...
I love the fact that the people who create the entertainment we love can actually visit on message boards and talk to their fans directly! God bless the Internet... the ultimate tool of communication, and freedom. :D


I don't think its a matter of "heros should never kill", more of a 'heros should never kill unless it's absolutely necessary or in self defense'...
I think that, in all of Bruce Timm & Co.'s shows (B:TAS/TNBA, S:TAS, JL/JLU, BB), the heroes have held true to that ideal.


buddy its just a cartton for one. and also, how many people do you think the goverment in the Jlu haven' killed yet. First of all, If Superman or Gl were intent on killing Grundy, they would of found a way believe me, to do it before Hawkgirl came.
It's not 'just a cartoon' for me... It's very well made science fiction that just happens to be in animated form (because that's the medium that works best here). :cool:

[Spectre]

I'm not sure if I would call this particular episode 'sci-fi'... the 'fantasy' elements were strong, as they always are when we deal with Dr. Fate and his Merry Men. :D

I usually just consider the 'superhero genre' to be exactly that, a kind of merger of sci-fi, fantasy, drama, and adventure, but with a feel all its own.

But now I'm quibbling over semantics.

[Crimson]

The whole grundy as a rabid dog, lame horse, whatever, just doesnt hold water, imo, simply because of what was actually in the episode. from my standpoint, it seemed the League had intended on killing Grundy before any of Dr. Fate's insights about him being a ball of evil magic, before any of that stuff. You seem to perhaps be mis-remembering how the fight began, or reading into it things that didn't really happen. One of Green Lantern's first actions was to try to immobolize Grundy; Superman's was to try to talk to him: "C'mon Grundy, we've been through this before ... Maybe I can help." They intially attacked Grundy with no more or less force than they would any other opponent they know to be able to hold his own against Superman. There is nothing in the early attacks to indicate they intended to kill him prior to Fate's revelations.

[Maxie Zeus]

I think a lot of the argument comes back around to a question we don't have a good answer to: What exactly is Grundy, and can you do to him what you can do to other villains?

Well, he's a zombie, which means he is not alive. So, technically, I guess you can't kill him, and so whatever you do do to him will not, technically, be killing him. Of course, this was true of the Grundy before "Terror Beyond," and the JL had scruples about, er, snuffing him out even then. So I guess that shows that Grundy's being undead rather than alive is not really the issue.

Instead, I think people are reacting to Grundy's sentience. He is (at least pre-TTB) a purposeful, self-aware creature, and it seems wrong to snuff out that kind of thing. So, the question in "Wake the Dead" would be (it seems): Is this resurrected Grundy a purposeful, self-aware creature that deserves protection?

Well, who knows? Lemme review the three arguments that seem to be on offer:

b.t.: 'grundy was (as some here have pointed out) basically an empty shell, pulled from, well, heaven, i guess, against his will...think of his non-stop roaring as translating to "DAMMIT! I WAS AT PEACE, RE-UNITED WITH MY SOUL AT LONG LAST, BUT NOW I'M BACK IN THIS SODDING MONSTER BODY!! KILL ME!! KILL ME NOW!!"'

Shayera: I don't believe in souls, so that "pulled from heaven" stuff is irrelevant AFAIC. I say: anything that walks and moves and does purposeful things is "sentient" and you shouldn't kill it. Resurrected Grundy does purposeful, self-aware things (even if he can't talk), so we shouldn't kill him.

Dr. Fate: That thing running loose isn't even a reanimated corpse. It's only a corpse. It looks like it has a soul trapped inside it, and it looks like it does purposeful, self-aware things. But that's just an illusion caused by chaos magic. The thing out there is nothing but a scarecrow being buffeted by an evil wind. You wouldn't feel guilty about knocking the stuffing out of a scarecrow, would you?

(At least, that's what I interpreted Dr. Fate as saying, so I had no problem with Grundy being, er, put down at the end.)

These are three quite different metaphysical theories. It might be interesting going into them, but at the end we really wouldn't have a good idea of which one is correct in the current case. Best thing to do is just let b.t. set the rules. It's his bat and ball, right? ;)

So I guess there really was something "inside" Grundy. In which case, I understand people being queasy about it ...


and now, just to throw some more gasoline on the fire, i have to say the whole "heroes should never ever kill" rule just doesn't sit well with me....i think it's a decent rule in THEORY, and certainly i think we need to honor it for the most part for the sake of the younger members of our audience, BUT...

say a bad guy's got a knife at an innocent victim's throat....a cop draws his gun, points it at perp, tells perp to drop his weapon...perp not only doesn't drop the knife, he starts to slash at the victim....if the cop DOESN'T shoot the bad guy at that point, he's not doing his job, as far as i'm concerned.

now, obviously that's an extreme example, and not really applicable to the fantasy world of jlu....and i'm not saying the jlu should be issued a carte blanche "license to kill" (and trust me, they WON'T), but i think in extraordinary circumstances, use of deadly force COULD concievably be justified...i didn't have a problem with them roasting the invaders in "secret origins", for instance, and blowing up all them luftwaffe pilots, to halt their slaughter of the allied troops? okay by me.

Yeah, the idea is "minimal amount of necessary force," right? But the Justice League members are able to deploy a massive but targeted amount of non-lethal force (heat beams and ring constructs and stuff like that), so they've got a very high threshold to meet before they can kill someone. But in theory, yes, the League should be allowed to kill a villain if there is absolutely no other way to stop him.

The problem (as you see in this thread) is that there will always be viewers who will suspect that there should have been another way. You can also get queasy about (as one commenter put it) the League acting as judge, jury and executioner in this case.

[Spectre]

Fortunately, they do have people to reign them back in...

Isn't it funny that all of the 'outsiders' of the League are the ones who act as its moral compasses? Green Arrow, Batman, Dr. Fate- all of the more detached members of the League are always the ones who stand in front of the door and say, "Hey, wait a minute. Is there a better way to do this? There has to be."

Batman even mentioned that Green Arrow's somewhat... disjoined status would 'keep us honest'. Does this imply that there is something inherently rotten in a large grouping of great power like the Justice League? That the more 'institutionalized' superheroes become, the more distant they grow from their own personal sense of right and wrong?

[Alex Weitzman]

Last of the three new episodes. Seriously, I swear I will get to This Little Piggy before Christmas. It's one of those things you keep meaning to do and then never do.

What an interesting pedigree this episode has. The finest moment of the second season of Justice League for me was Starcrossed, and its most lackluster was The Terror Beyond. Obviously, Wake the Dead is more of a spiritual sequel to the latter, but the former, by virtue of how important and all-affecting it was, is guaranteed to become implicated in it. For an episode that has TWO previous episodes to bring some closure to (three if you count The Return), it has a lot of characters - a full seven heroes, in fact. One of those heroes is new, and is introduced in a precarious and tense position as John's new girl. There's a lot of action to be had here, by virtue of it being Grundy's episode, not to mention a version of Grundy who can do nothing but attack. So how cohesive and powerful could something like this be? Amazingly, Wake the Dead features those qualities more than I could have predicted, and puts it up there with For The Man Who Has Everything and Fearful Symmetry as the best this season.

Perhaps it would help to understand what I did and did not like about The Terror Beyond for a reference point about why Wake the Dead did so well with me. Terror tried to do two things at once: tell a story about Hawkgirl dealing with faith, and show how Grundy can be an inadvertent hero. Of the two, the latter is a better story. After all, when one can waltz right into the home of the "god" one's people once worshipped, faith - the belief in the unknown - isn't really much of an issue. Grundy's story, on the other hand, had awesome comic potential. There is a wonderful episode of Pinky and the Brain where the entire episode is seen through Pinky's point of view, both visually and aurally, and we see what sort of massive misunderstandings and omissions are responsible for his constant idiocy. There was a chance to pull this with Grundy in Terror, especially with his wild misinterpretation of who has his soul. There's no good reason that Ichthultu would have Grundy's soul (since when did Ichthultu have anything to do with Louisiana swamp magic?), and yet, that's what makes it so funny when Grundy destroys him for it and saves the day for Earth. Terror fails though by essentially robbing the episode from Grundy and giving it to the whole "faith" issue; Grundy's death isn't really about Grundy, but about Hawkgirl. For this wonderfully goofy white Hulk zombie, it's a crying shame.

What does this mean for Wake the Dead? It means that Grundy's blank expression and relentless rage hit me pretty hard. I didn't complain, because there's no reason to complain unless it's unsatisfactory. But I did mutter after many of the first scenes, "Something has happened to Grundy. Something has SERIOUSLY happened to Grundy." It's not as if Grundy's previous humanity was forgotten; Shayera quickly references "birdnose" in her first reunion with Grundy. An element of severe loss colored the core of the episode by virtue of the change in Grundy's demeanor. He was no longer the big, cheeky goof that he once was. His pendulum swung dramatically in the other direction.

This is appropriate, methinks, because Shayera has also become quite unlike her former self. Her semi-self-made tragedy of Starcrossed seems to have turned Hawkgirl from being an aggressor to a diplomat. She can still kick butt with that all-powerful mace (I gotta get me one of those), but she's a far cry from the League member who foolishly and carelessly rushed into the fray nearly every time she could. With Grundy, she shares a tainted heroship, of different origins but similar fashions. In fact, it's almost like Grundy has inherited her old ferocity, and putting him down would be like putting herself down. It's this pain and self-loathing that both of them had from almost the very beginning, and it is the bond between these two unlikely friends. And this time, Grundy's death was about Grundy's death. It was about Shayera, too, but Grundy was not shortchanged his tragedy this time by either silliness or lack of focus. This time, his death was poignant.

All of this comes from an episode that is continually effective in working its characters to their fullest capacity. Dr. Fate, sometimes overbearing in the past, works here as a wise expert and unofficial captain of a side team within the new League. It helps that Oded Fehr invests his Fate with just the slightest shade of regret towards the actions of this episode, keying into the fact that Fate does have emotional opinions on what occurs around him. Aquaman, a raw nerve in Terror Beyond, manages to convey his grumpiness with the right shade of comedy to it, so that he's not grating but we still get the idea. Definitely good to see Amazo again; in fact, he has come full circle back to the simple and childlike good soul that Tabula Rasa first introduced him as, which is certainly some important closure. Vixen is interesting, to say the least; not so much done here for her precarious spot in the now-triangle, but the door is left open for her to cause further trouble for Shayera later.

And the final moments of the episode reveal what many of us longed to hear: the nature of the vote in Starcrossed. It is good to know that they wanted her to stay. With these moments, John returns to the fully-formed character that the first two seasons made of him, leaving him as still the most effective and fleshed-out character on the show. And there's a cathartic good from Superman revealing he broke the tie in favor of Shayera. Supes spends much of the episode not very happy ("Do I LOOK okay?!"), with both his fatigue of dealing with Grundy and some general grumpiness. With Grundy and Shayera being so connected, there's an unspoken threat that Superman may not be pleased with Shayera's re-introduction into the good fight. The audience shares Shayera's worries - that she really isn't welcome back in League business, something that the crowd's persecution of her doesn't help. Superman provides us with what I suspect many of us have been waiting for: the recognition that as far as the League is officially concerned, Hawkgirl never truly left.

[Temple Fugate]

P.S. -- It's good to finally see JLU get a standard intro! If Hawkgirl puts the costume back on and starts living in the Watchtower II, it'll need the minor modification later of having Hawkgirl in costume in her profile shot. I just hope this standard intro is retrofitted now onto the intro of the past 7 JLU episodes for future reruns, and DVD releases. :)

Shayera should never put her HG costume on again. It would ruin the whole essence of what her character is about. She said it herself; "I'm not 'Hawkgirl,' that was always a sham." The costume at this point symbolizes the secrets she was hiding about herself, and with her physical unmasking in "Wild Cards" brought the character unmasking in the following episode "Starcrossed" pt I. (Before anyone says it: Technically "Starcrossed" follows "Wild Cards" in production order.)

Hmm... Are John and Shayera perhaps the other two who go with Green Arrow and Black Cannary in "Double Date?"

[Knight]

Random thought for the episode -- wouldn't it have been funny if Calendar Girl had interrupted the fashion show? Green Lantern and Vixen would have made short work of her! :p Actually, I'm glad she didn't -- I always hated that Batman villian.I actually had a Calaender Girl thought during the fashion show as well after I watched it a few times.


Have Dr. Fate transport him somewhere safe until they decide what to do with him?If you recall Fate said his magic was useless against Grundy.Dr. Fate teleporting him would have required magic.


You seem to perhaps be mis-remembering how the fight began, or reading into it things that didn't really happen. One of Green Lantern's first actions was to try to immobolize Grundy; Superman's was to try to talk to him: "C'mon Grundy, we've been through this before ... Maybe I can help." They intially attacked Grundy with no more or less force than they would any other opponent they know to be able to hold his own against Superman. There is nothing in the early attacks to indicate they intended to kill him prior to Fate's revelations.
That's what I have been saying. The League didn't fight Grundy any differently than anyone else but Derrick Powers insists that from the beginning they were trying to kill him and I just don't see it.

If you want to see a team trying to kill look at the Justice Lords when they fought the League. The Justice Lords Green Lantern was going to impale the Leagues one and The Lords WW was going to smash Batman's brains in with a boulder. That's going all out and trying to kill your opponent. Not what the League was trying to do in Wake The Dead. They were doing there best to try and stop Grundy. We didn't see any extreme or out of the ordinary lethal moves from the team to suggest they were attempting a kill move.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

One last parting shot over the "should the League kill the bad guys" debate. I forget if I mentioned it here or in a Comic Book Culture discussion, but this is the most overtly military League we've ever seen.

The JLU John Stewart is an ex-Marine. "Every Marine is a rifleman," and the purpose of Parris Island and the west coast equivalent is to turn raw recruits into Marines who are able and willing to kill the enemy on command -- a skill Stewart demonstrated once he picked up a rifle in "Savage Time." You could argue that his training as a Green Lantern has countered his Marine "kill 'em all" mentality, but considering that the Corps looks like another military organization, I'd be surprised if they don't have allowances for lethal force even considering the power of the rings.

Shayera was eventually revealed to be a trained combat soldier from Thanagar, a world accustomed to continual war, and a particularly ferocious example of her people. As with John, there's no reason to believe she has any inherent qualms against killing.

We haven't gotten much info on the Amazons, but what we have seen indicates they're the warrior women of Greek and Roman legend without the message of peace that was infused in Wonder Woman's comic book origins. She was also perfectly ready to smash the Toyman's head in when she thought he killed Superman.

Finally, JLU J'onn J'onzz has morphed into a freedom fighter on Mars against the Imperium, and we saw him on an infiltration mission whose purpose was to deploy a lethal bioweapon.

So, out of the seven original members, four have active military backgrounds. Given that, if anything I'm happier that this League hasn't used lethal force MORE often.

-- Ed/Ace

[Merlin Missy]

That Alex Weitzman, he's a smartie. :D

To continue the flogging of the dead horse (hm, tasteless yet apropos phrasing, go me) I submit yet another Buffyism: In the B:TVS season five episode "Forever," Dawn casts a spell to reanimate her mother. At the end, Buffy manages to talk her out of it and they stop the spell, effectively "killing" their mother again. (See also the story of "The Monkey's Paw," and for a different ending, "Pet Sematary.")

So. A teenager, not entirely understanding the dark forces she's conjuring (although in Sunnydale and with her friends, you'd think she's know better), reanimates a corpse. We don't see Zombie!Joyce, nor does she go on a killing rampage, but no one denies that ending the spell, and thus ending the half-life she's been imbued with by that spell, is tantamount to murder. Why? 'Cause Joyce is already dead.

The situation is arguably different with Grundy because, during his screen time on the series, he was technically always "already dead." (See Vixen.) However, there's "dead" and there's "dead." There's "walking around, having conversations with your buddies and looking to score some gold" dead, and there's "If you hadn't filled it with chaos magic / nailed it to the perch, it'd be pushing up the daisies" dead. I argue that Solomon Grundy, in this episode, fits the last category far more than the first.

*Herein would be a big discussion about the nature of souls and of faith, what the varying beliefs of the board members bring to the table in terms of their own beliefs and how this shapes whether or not each person buys that Grundy got his soul back in TTB and the final disposition of that soul, and even an additional argument that "Solomon Grundy" as we knew him was a different person than Cyrus Gold and therefore may have had a different "final destination," as many religions make exceptions for those too ignorant / innocent to know better. Pity I don't have the time to get into it.*

A final thought, about his bowed head at the end: Was this a sign that a shred of the old Grundy remained in the shell, or was it just the last motion of something too tired to fight anymore? You could go either way, but if it's the former, and there was a piece of Grundy left, that piece could have asked Shayera to spare his life, either verbally or non-verbally, had that been what he wanted. She didn't want to kill him and did everything she could to prevent his death. (Although I think her impression that the League did intend to kill him says a lot more about what *she* was bringing to the table --- both that she thinks that the old her would have killed without hesitation, and that part of her thinks maybe they'll try to kill her when they meet again.) But Grundy doesn't ask. He bows his head and closes his eyes and gives acquiescence because if there is a part of him left, that part wants an ending.

MM:)

[Fone Bone]

wow...who knew this ep would spark such a "euthanasia: good or bad?" debate! last thing in the world I expected, that's for dang sure....

the way WE see it: grundy was (as some here have pointed out) basically an empty shell, pulled from, well, heaven, i guess, against his will...think of his non-stop roaring as translating to "DAMMIT! I WAS AT PEACE, RE-UNITED WITH MY SOUL AT LONG LAST, BUT NOW I'M BACK IN THIS SODDING MONSTER BODY!! KILL ME!! KILL ME NOW!!"

now, maybe supremus is right, and we didn't get that point across properly (though lotsa people here seem to have gotten it)...blame it on me, if you like...possibly mark hamill coulda sold it with more emotion-packed grunting and screaming;)....

right, the "old yeller" comparison doesn't QUITE match up exactly...we toyed with the idea of him still "ggrrr"-ing right up until the moment she whacked him, but thought the silent bowing of his head would be more poignant (i still think it was the right choice)....anyhow, as someone here pointed out, he was ALLOWING her to kill him, to end his misery...it's what he wanted all along.

but, really, the "old yeller" comparison DOES work in this way: shayera was to all extents and purposes putting down a very sick dog. PERIOD.


and now, just to throw some more gasoline on the fire, i have to say the whole "heroes should never ever kill" rule just doesn't sit well with me....i think it's a decent rule in THEORY, and certainly i think we need to honor it for the most part for the sake of the younger members of our audience, BUT...

say a bad guy's got a knife at an innocent victim's throat....a cop draws his gun, points it at perp, tells perp to drop his weapon...perp not only doesn't drop the knife, he starts to slash at the victim....if the cop DOESN'T shoot the bad guy at that point, he's not doing his job, as far as i'm concerned.

now, obviously that's an extreme example, and not really applicable to the fantasy world of jlu....and i'm not saying the jlu should be issued a carte blanche "license to kill" (and trust me, they WON'T), but i think in extraordinary circumstances, use of deadly force COULD concievably be justified...i didn't have a problem with them roasting the invaders in "secret origins", for instance, and blowing up all them luftwaffe pilots, to halt their slaughter of the allied troops? okay by me.Now that I know Grundy DID get his soul back and was at peace I completely understand the need for Hawkgirl to let him rest. It was the moral uncertainty of this episode that made me uncomfortable but now that the gaurdian of the DCAU's universe has layed it out there I am comfortable with it.

This will certainly make the episode better on second viewing. Thank you. (You too Merlin Missy!)

[paulie]

Some more personal ideas about death/WTD:

One of the reasons I like watching superhero cartoons is that death isn't used to solve all the story's problems. You can call me a pacifist or whatnot, but too often when watching either a movie or TV show, the story is wrapped up in a neat, bloody bow--it's always a little letdown. (We can discuss whether the baddies "deserved" is or not another time). That isn't to say that don't think killing shouldn't be a part of the show, though, and I generally agree with the execptions mentioned above ("Starcrossed", "Savage Time", etc.)

I guess in a sense, I feel "safe" watching these shows because I know that death isn't taken lightly, and that the protagonists try to rise above and figure out non-lethal means of resolving issues. I'm someone who liked the end of "Hawk and Dove" and "The Return" :o And putting down Grundy, although the right thing to do, still was upsetting to me.

[RAINMAN]

I don`t apporval of heroes killing either but b.t. has a point. Sometimes the badguys cross that line and the hero must act for the greater good. Many people thinkbats was not gonna killed the joker for what He did tim in ROTJ. But I beg to differ. Joker want way to far in a atemp to get back at bats and he knew he had to be stop once and for all. The same whit prime in TFTM. All you ahd to do is take one look at how bad auotbot city was mass up to tell him megatron has finally gone way to far and now he must be stop. No matther the cost.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

This post is for all the "Justice League killing the bad guys" people. Solomon Grundy is dead...the only thing that made him "seem alive" was magic. Hawkgirl was only putting an already dead person back to sleep. Somebody said that the Justice League are militaristic. Maybe to a degree but I would still say no. They are far less brutal in terms of combat. Depending on who it is anyway. They aren't killers per se. There might be certain members that will "cross the line," Identity Crisis is showing that a lot, (not nessasarilly killing) but for the most part, the Leaguers don't kill.

[Jade_GL]

I must comment on the *killing* issue brought up as well.

I seem to remember an episode where the League fought reanimated skeletons and repeatedly broke them into tons of pieces. This is no different from the situation with Grundy. Grundy, even with a personality, is still just a reanimated corpse. Ideally, he should be dead, but something (malevolence, etc) keeps him in an undead state. NOT ALIVE, but undead like a vampire, a mummy, or a zombie.

And, this case in the episode is even more striking. He is not only a reanimated corpse, but is even without the personality that he had prior to his *death* in The Terror Beyond. He is a shell with nothing of his former self but his appearance. People are getting attached to what he was, but even what he was was an anomaly, something that should not have ever been in the world. Unless of course you believe zombies should be a normal part of everyday life. :)

The League isn't so much killing him as dispelling whatever chaos magic is animating his body and keeping him from his rest, a rest that he deserves after how ever many years he had to endure as an animated corpse. It's only bringing him to his natural state, or what his natural state should be, which is dead.

Also, for the people who say Superman was depowered in this episode: Not only did they say that Grundy was much more powerful than he should or could ever be, but Superman is as vulnerable to magic as any other member of the League. And Grundy was reanimated by chaos magic. Therefore, he has that extra edge to cut through Superman's natural defenses. At least, that's how it normally works with magic based powers vs. the Man of Steel.

[Crimson]

Not only did they say that Grundy was much more powerful than he should or could ever be, but Superman is as vulnerable to magic as any other member of the League. And Grundy was reanimated by chaos magic. Therefore, he has that extra edge to cut through Superman's natural defenses*Good* observation, and I didn't notice anyone pointing this out.

[Jade_GL]

*Good* observation, and I didn't notice anyone pointing this out.
Thanks. :)

I didn't even think of it until a day ago, and that was long after I watched the episode.

But it's part and parcel with the character of Superman, whether they explicitly mention that specific weakness in the episode or not. It's always there behind the scenes. That's why I want to see an animated fight between Supes and the Big Red Cheese... That would be hardcore. :)

Oh, Big Red Cheese = Captain Marvel

[Killtacular]

It's strange, I have an episode penned in one of my series concepts about a vigilante superhero that crosses the line and kills criminals... such an episode would never air on TV before 10 pm but, heh. I think it would be an interesting angle for a show to explore. There should be an episode where a League member kills a criminal... with an exploration of the sort of backlash and controversy it would create.. I think in my head some of the stuff from Over the Edge where the villains are being interviewed (right? i'm not thinking of the wrong episode am i?)... or you could bring back the talk show host from JL season 2.. sort of stir the hornet's nest. I don't know. I just think it would be interesting (but probably TV-PG boundaries).

[D4rkn1ght]

Why some people want the JLU to become the Superfriends? :eek:

What makes the JLU great, is the realistic like personalities, decisions, and struggles that they go through.

Why killing the bad guy is such a big deal to some? Or is it that some people are too young to accept the realities of the world?

The show already became a more water down version of previous seasons.

If anything, I want to see blood, more drama and struggle, like Batman's MOTP or ROTJ. :rolleyes: