JL and previous animated series animation

[DerekPowers]

i wasnt sure which board to post this on, but i figured since watching jl initiated this qs, id post it here.


first, can someone list in detail the animation studios which did btas, motp, subzero, tnba, stas, tnsa, bb, rotj and jl. and if is initials, like kms or whatever company that is, can you put what they stand for. also, were some series done by different companies, depending on the eps or seasons? i think btas was done by 2 companies, correct? thanks alot.

now....do you think JL animation was better or worse than the previous series? i personally thought it was a little stiff, no where near as good as the first seasons of stas and tnba. but it was obviously done by the same people who did rotj. i dont know, maybe its the digital coloring, but the animation didnt seem as alive as the previous series, especially the first seasons of all the previous series. any thoughts?

[DisneyBoy]

I can't give credits to you, but I do agree that the animation is lacking. It looks like they "drew" the characters on computer and used "paint bucket" to fill them in. There is no line quality anymore. Timm always drew using thick lines and thin ones and it added a lot to the characters. I miss it. As for stiffness, the animation mixed with the new voice actors causes that, I think.

[kid_flash]

I agree that there were definite moments in "Secret Origins" where the animation was stiff, but "In Blackest Night" was a huge improvement. Overall, I have no problems with the animation. The characters move really smoothly much more often than not. I think a lotta people tend to notice the small problems over the large majority of well-done animation.

And TMS did ROTJ, but I heard a different place does JL.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by DerekPowers
first, can someone list in detail the animation studios which did btas, motp, subzero, tnba, stas, tnsa, bb, rotj and jl. and if is initials, like kms or whatever company that is, can you put what they stand for. also, were some series done by different companies, depending on the eps or seasons? i think btas was done by 2 companies, correct? thanks alot.

*cracking of knuckles*

Ah, a chance to plug my website. ;)

Go here (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/anbatndx.html) and click on the "Filmographies" bars for each of the three series. Scroll down to the bottom of each page and there will be a list of the animation studios that worked on that series and the episodes they did.

Sadly, my TNBA filmography is not complete. Bizarrely, there are some TNBA episodes that appear not to carry a credit for the animation studio.

BTW, TMS is "Tokyo Movie Shinsa" I believe-- or was. For some reason I have the impression they formally changed to the name to "TMS" some years back.

[The Mad Hatter]

I'm pretty sure they did officially shorten their name to TMS some time back. For my money, as far as TV animation goes, TMS can't be beat.

I'm pretty sure JL has been done by Dong Yang (Koko) so far, as they did much of the later episodes of B:TAS, much of S:TAS, and a bit of BB if I remember right. They were one of the better studios for B:TAS, right behind TMS and Sunrise.

[DerekPowers]

are you guys sure tms doent do jl? the animation looks extremely similar to rotj.

plus, why is it that some of the animation companies do great jobs on some eps, but horrible jobs on others? for example, in maxie's website, kok did both "almost got em" and "two-face" part 2,'ive got batman in my basement" and robin's reckoning part 2. those 3 were really badly animated, especially in comparison to ep lik almost got im and tyger, tyger, which was also done by koko. is i just a coincidence that some are good and some bad, or does it have to do w/ the budget for each ep? like does timm and co decide which eps get priority when it comes to animation??

also, stas was on maxie's website. does anyone know who did that show's eps??

and if justice league is koko (even though i'd be willing to bet tms does it, simply by its similarity to rotj in animation style), is it possible we'll get some really horribly animated eps?? please god, no more "mechanic" eps, please, jl doesnt deserve that kind of treatment!!!

[DerekPowers]

i just checked my jl tape, and the animation was done by koko, so just ignore all my statements above insisting it was done by tms, even though it looks extremely similar to rotj.

[Toddman]

This subject really intrigues me. I have seen so much discussion on these boards and heard so much discussion among friends of mine about the quality of animation on JL compared to BB, BTAS and STAS. And the only constant thing that I have noticed among all of the discussion is that people have a lot of different tastes when it comes to animation.

However, there is also a lot of misinformation and inaccurate assumptions, too. Thanks to some of the filmographies posted on Maxie Zeus's terrific website, I think we can clear up some of the facts and get rid of some of the speculation.

The original run of Batman:The Animated Series (85 episodes plus two movies) used eight different studios for their animation. They had to go with so many because the first season consisted of 65 episodes of a series that ran Mon.-Fri. That kind of schedule would have been too difficult for only one or two studios to handle.

Some people say that the animation on BTAS was the best ever produced by Timm and company. I find that interesting because I think all eight studios produced distinctly different styles of animation.

I will say, though, that I think the style and design introduced for BTAS was truly inspired and changed the standard of animation for all action-adventure cartoons that followed, including its DC Animated brethren.

But I don't think that BATS was the best and that everything since has sucked. BTAS had its ups and downs. I feel that the episodes animated by Akom (i.e. "Be A Clown", "The Mechanic")were the worst of the entire series. While the episodes that were animated by TMS ("Fear of Victory", "Feat of Clay pt 2") and Spectrum ("On Leather Wings", "Robin's Reckoning pt 1") were beautiful and the best of the entire run. And I agree with DerekPowers that the episodes credited to Dong Yang seem very inconsistant. How can the same studio that produced a gem like "Almost Got 'Im" also be responsible for "The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy"? They even seem to hit a middle ground occasionally with episodes like "House and Garden".

I've never agreed that the animation on MOTP was the best of BTAS, either. The majority of the animation is by Dong Yang, but some of the sequences were done by Spectrum (such as the opening w/the death of Chuckie Sol and the end with the giant explosions at the World's Fair). I think that the Spectrum stuff is a lot prettier and more fluid than the rest of the movie and to me the difference is obvious. I also think that the effort put forth by Dong Yang for "Sub-Zero" is overall a better job than their work on MOTP (but still not as good as Spectrum's stuff). But not many people agree w/me.

As for STAS and TNBA, it seems to me that by that time, Timm and Co. had settled down to two animation houses: TMS, which animated episodes like "Over The Edge" & "Growing Pains" for Batman and "The Late Mr. Kent" & "Bizarro's World" for Superman. The other was Dong Yang. I think that the TMS stuff for these two series was much much better than Dong Yang's work. Dong Yang still seemed to suffer from inconsistancy though, I think that the animation in "You Scratch My Back" and "Holiday Knights" is a lot better than their other work at that time.

By the time that Batman Beyond came around, they were only using Dong Yang for their animation. A lot of people feel that the animation for Batman Beyond was very high, others feel that that quality changed from season to season. All I see is typical Dong Yang animation for every episode every season. They were consistant this time, unfortunately I felt it was their lower quality of consistancy. For my tastes there is not much of a difference in quality through the entire run. The only exception for me is ROTJ. TMS provided the animation for that movie, and I think it is the best BB has looked. Others think that the animation of ROTJ never exceded the quality of the TV episodes. And here is where I disagree w/DerekPowers...I would never even begin to compare the animation for ROTJ to JL. I think ROTJ is far superior in fluidity and art than JL is so far. But to him, they are very similar. Like I said before, we all seem to view animation differently.

All of this leads me to JL. Many people think that the animation on "In Blackest Night pt 1" is better than "Secret Origins". I think that the animation for "IBNpt1" is just about equal to 2/3 of "SO".

For me the first part of "SO" (all of what will be the first episode) was a lot better than the second and third part and so far the best animation of the series (all four episodes of it). When I first saw it, the animation for the opening sequence on Mars looked very strong, but as the episode went on, I found myself thinking, "Yep, same old Dong Yang."

So there you go. A healthy dose of facts w/a few of my own opinions thrown in. Sorry I was so long winded. I guess what it comes down to for me is that if TMS did every episode of JL from now til the series ends, I would be one happy fanboy. Although I know that some others wouldn't be.

Toddman

[DerekPowers]

Originally posted by DisneyBoy
There is no line quality anymore. Timm always drew using thick lines and thin ones and it added a lot to the characters. I miss it. As for stiffness, the animation mixed with the new voice actors causes that, I think.

does anyone know the exact process used to animate jl. they draw it freehand, and scan it and digitally color it, right?

but disneyboy, you are absolutley right about the line quality. i am so into this stuff that i just watched some of the best animated eps of tnba (imo) "never fear" and "growing pains" then rewatched the last scene of "in blackest night part 2" that i taped tonight, and compared the animation. heres what i figured.....

first, the animation in tnba is FAR superior than jl, by far. seriously, just watch any of these eps..."world's finest pt 1", "You scratch my back", never fear, growing pains, the demon within, the ultimate thrill, or over the edge, and you will see batman animated at its utmost finest (well, there are btas eps that are equal, such as twoface pt 1, robins reckoning pt 1, POV, i could go on).

The problem w/ JL and bb from the middle of season 2 onward is this...the digital coloring and the pixalized lines. YES, the lines are pixelized!! i checked very carefully and could see it clearly in JL. if any of you have ever worked in photoshop youll be able to spot it much more easy than those who have not. I assume they scan the hand drawn art into the computer for coloring, causing the lines to become pixalized, and diminishing the line quality, as disneyboy pointed out. its subtle, but makes a HUGE difference, mainly in the amount of detail you can see. the line isnt a crisp or clear, its much more disjointed, and the detail therefore isnt as clear. and the digital coloring just doesnt hold up against hand painted coloring. its too, i dont know, systematic, flat, and dead looking, tnba/stas colors are so much more vibrant and alive. basically it comes down to the human touch, something handcrafted to something computer generated, which the hand crafted just looks much much better.

TODDMAN, you make excellent points. when i said rotj looked like jl, i guess its mainly the digital quality of it. the line quality is very similar as well as the coloring.

but id disagree w/ your comments on rotj. IMO, rotj was not the best animation bb has seen. i feel the first season eps, particularly "rebirth" 1&2, black out, shriek, and golem were animated great, overall better than rotj. mainly it comes down to the hand made animation looking far superior to the digital colors and pixalized line quality. once bb stared using the digital coloring in the middle of the second season, the animation quality kept going down. a good example would be "out of the past", a great ep, decent and consistent animation, but a good example of the low quality of the line and unclear detail. Rotj was greatly animated but, while far superior to the series in fluidity, it still lacked the energy and vibrance of the first season. but my rotj copy is a bootleg uncut version, so the piture quality to begin w/ isnt all that great, probably effecting the way the colors come across off screen. but digital or not, rotj had some great animation.

and thats were, i feel, JL falls short. Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against computer animation, i just dont like the digital coloring and pixalized lines. I give JL mad props for using cgi, like the green lantern's sheild, the shield covering the gl headquarters, the illusion masking the planet in "ibn"part 2, all that kind of stuff they do is great, imo.

and i also spotted parts of JL where the color comes slightly out of the line, which, if youve worked in photoshop, you know happens from time to time. the line doesnt act as a complete boarder all the time. plus the smoke, fire, beams, rays, light are all noticably digital, which is not the case in the previous series, but i dont mind that so much because when used well it can look really good, as it does in JL (although if you twisted my are i'd still take the hand drawn smoke/fire/beams/etc). all this may not sound like a big deal, but when combined it makes the animation look extremely different from btas/tnba/stas/bb season 1-2.5. i think it looks worse, some may disagree. seriously, if you have any of the old series on tape just watch a really nicely animated ep and then watch jl. you will see the difference, i guarantee it.

well thats my little rant. peace yall. TODDMAN, id be interested in hearing a response, since it appears we both can go on all day about this stuff.

[Vigo Sprax]

Well, the thing that really ticks me off about JL animation - and you seen this in SO - is that when Martian Manhunter is in his true form, they're too lazy to animate his mouth! What the heck is up with that?! ;) :D

[Toddman]

DerekPowers, thanks for the insight on the computer coloring process used on JL. I think I may have heard that they were doing that on JL, but I was not aware of the process being used on BB also. My experience in Photoshop is very limited. (I 'm more of a traditional illustrator myself and make my living as a storyboard artist.)

I think that might influence my personal taste in animation and the qualities that help me enjoy it. I get more enjoyment out of smooth movement and blocking rather than coloring. I also think that TMS and Spectrum draw better looking characters. What really makes me surprised at myself is that I don't have a better eye for the line-quality. I've never really noticed much of a thin-to-thick quality in the actual line art of the animattion (or even the individual cels), but you're right that the pixilization of ANY line is a damn shame. Unfortunately, the computer coloring is probably something that they will stick with. I'm sure that while the look of the hand colored animation is much richer, it's probably more expensive and/or time consuming.

And I agree w/you on the computer generated fx. They have managed to blend in rather nicely with the standard cel animation. I particulaly enjoyed the lens flares used during a couple of the segments in "Secret Origins."

I'm still hoping for an episode or three done by TMS, so at least I can enjoy the more fluid movement and the snappier pacing, even if the line quality is somewhat diminished.

Toddman