Drowning in Continuity (JLU essay)

[Ian]

Some posters noted in the Ultimatum thread how the DCAU is becoming more and more exclusionary, doing stuff that appeals more to fans of the comic books and goes over the heads of non-fans. While in the beginning it was strictly episodic, with episodes that could, with a few exceptions, be watched in any order (something that was reinforced by the air change with Injustice for All) and characters developed enough for you to care about them on some level. You could be a comic-book virgin, watch any random episode and enjoy it (depending on the quality of the episode, of course).

Now, with the current conspiracy storyline, which references events that happened in other series, and the continued “introduction of characters that aren't introduced that confuse some but are picked up by older fans” it is becoming clear that this is no longer the case. Now the viewer needs context before fully enjoying the episode. Ultimatum continued the trend, introducing Maxwell Kord and Amanda Waller, two well-developed characters from the 80’s DCU, who, without the comic books to give them context, are ciphers; by altering character dynamics in order to match the show it’s homaging; and by introducing a super team solely to homage a thirty-year-old series. True, you can say this about almost every character in the series is a cipher until developed, but really, there’s no comparison between pop culture icons like Superman, or even Aquaman, and Amanda Waller, a character known, at best, by a million people, several which don’t watch the show.

The DCAU’s situation parallels the regular DCU’s. Right now, the DCU’s continuity is a kudzu, so deep that it makes it completely inaccessible to newer readers. Some of the most popular books are little more than excuses for writers to write publisher-sanctioned fan fiction and to bring back twenty-year old characters, continuity or good narrative be damned (*cough cough Superman/Batman cough*). It’s part of the reason why the comic book industry continues to stagnate. Sure, situations are of completely different magnitudes—the DCAU’s continuity is still pretty straightforward—but it’s getting there, with a show that seems to be catering more and more to the fans instead of the casual viewer. Sure, there are casual viewers and non-comic-book-readers who will watch the show and gain an interest in these obscure, characters, but, for every person who decides to research B’wanna Beast (an activity not without its own risks, i.e.: continuity kudzu and the differences in universes), there’s another who writes the series off for having “lame, undeveloped characters”.

This isn’t to say that I’m not a fan of continuity or homage—my continuing love affair with the current TMNT show, a series whose attention to continuity is surpassed only by Gargoyles and which constantly dabbles in adaptations, should prove otherwise. It’s just that the sudden greater attention to years-old continuity, combined with the increasing emphasis on obscure (to the casual viewer) guest stars from all over the DCU feels to fanboyish to me, and threatens to bring down the whole ship, quality wise and popularity wise. TMNT, for all its problems, has never placed homage above plot (although you’re free to correct me if you feel I’m wrong).

Now, I’ll admit that I haven’t the foggiest idea of how well JLU is doing, ratings wise; for all I know, they have increased steadily since the change in formats. Also, I personally love how they’ve handled Ollie, The Question, and Booster Gold, and think the conspiracy plot has promise. Still, considering the complaints I’ve heard about the series at these and other boards (where the consensus seems to be that it’s a step backwards from JL’s second season), I still think it’s cause enough to worry. I love the DCAU, and want it to be as good as it possibly can. Despite my reservations, I still think the increased emphasis in continuity and the addition of the new characters can help the series, if done right. Perhaps the new characters will be developed to the extent that The Joker and Lex Luthor have. So far, with few exceptions, it hasn’t.

So, discuss. To simplify, is the show’s increasing “fanboyishness” a good idea?

[MJC]

I'd say I strongly disagree, though I do admit I may be biased.

But, honestly, I've never seen an episode where continuity was so important that you'd be lost without it. It's all optional. For example, though I'm somewhat of a comic fan, I had no idea who Amanda Waller and Maxwell Kord were, nor did I feel a need to.

The fact is, when a show has as many characters as JLU, the average viewer is going to be unfamiliar with a lot of them, and they won't all be equally developed. But, honestly, I don't want the show to only use people with widespread name recognition, then it'd just be JL Season 3. Sure, most people don't know who B'wana Beast is, but they don't need to either. Another example is the government conspiracy plot. There are references to other DCAU shows, but it's not like you really need to know about them to understand the plot.

In short, I don't think JLU is really getting much more "fanboyish". All of the continuity and comic references, from what I've seen, are entirely optional.

[Simpler Simon]

Since most of the fans on this site have access to amazing archives like the Justice League Watchtower (http://jl.toonzone.net/) and Worlds Finest (http://wf.toonzone.net/), it's a bit hard for us to say how much is too much. We get all the in-jokes and homages, sometimes because we've been around and seen the original source, other times because the guest-star's JLU appearance has sparked some interest in us to go searching over the net.

On a basic level, JLU still works as an action/adventure show, which is what CN and WB are pushing it as. I doubt little kids care as much about the difference between Green Arrow, Atom, B'wanna Beast and the Question, who are all on different tiers in terms of being a-list, b-list, c-list characters. Similiarly, Amanda Waller is never mentioned by name, I think. It's not important who she is, just that she's a high-ranking official involved in the cover up. You get a little extra out of it if you happen to know who she is. Which is, I think, what's going to be cool about this show ten years from now. The little kids who don't get what's going on now might finally get all the homages later, and they'll be able to enjoy the show again on a different level.

Of course, if you mean that JLU's fan panderings are affecting the quality of storytelling by putting c-listers ahead of actual plot, that's a matter of taste. If JLU seems inferior to the first two seasons at times, its because the range of stories this season is across the board. I don't think people hated B'wanna Beast so much as they hated the concept of the episode. And the greater attention to continuity is something we've all been clamouring for, because the DCAU is over a decade old and seeing how it's gonna end soon, it's only natural that they start putting all that history to good use.

[Fone Bone]

I think Ultimatum was the first episode that was hurt by continuity and not helped. I don't know who Amanda Waller or the other guy was so I don't see why I should care.

Other than that almost all of JLU has been enriched by continuity. Fearful Symmetry, For the Man Who Has Everything, and The Return each furthered plot points established earlier in the DCAU and I had no trouble following any of them.

[Johnny Cakes]

Well I have never actually read a DC comic book and I really enjoy JLU, despite not having seen a great deal of the episodes in the DCAU (Mostly I've watched the older Batman: TAS and Justice League). Even though I may not get a lot of these references I still enjoy these shows (Although I did enjoy the superfriends homage since I was fairly familiar with it). Although I may not get the references and jokes I am a big fan of the idea of shows including these kinds of things. So, as a casual DCAU fan I can say that that they have not taken it too far, yet.

[Style]

It's tempting, for me, someone who's been with this Universe from the Beginning, to simply say "Heavy continuity is good!" There's always a thrill when a plot or character you liked from way back when, is remembered, dusted off and reintroduced.

On the other hand, I'm starting to get concerned about this reliance on continuity. You need it, to a degree, but I think it's starting to skirt the edges of dangerous territory. Referencing past episodes of JL/U is fine. Referencing older stories from the DCAU should be done carefully, and there should be great effort to make sure new viewers are up to speed. Referencing something from the comics should be avoided if you 1.) need people to know what you're talking about, and 2.) aren't going to explain it.

I think on the first point, JLU is iffy. I don't think there's a problem if they are assuming that the audience by-and-large followed Justice League. (I personally consider it the same show.) However, I do think that first time viewers of JLU may be a bit overwhelmed. All the episodes have suggested a certain familiarity with the characters, which may be harder on new viewers. And referencing the comics without explanation: I don't think it's been to bad yet, but it's there. I don't know who the Suicide Squad is. And I know people were excited that The government lady mentioned a squad. I just thought she meant so police squad or a subset of the marines or the secret service or something. So it worked for both ends. But, I think JLU may still be a getting a little to continuity happy, as far as the DCAU goes.

In The DC guide to writing comics, Dennis O'Neil talks about it. He says that sometimes heavy continuity makes it feel like a club, and newbies are intimidated from entering. He said that there should be a great effort to make getting into a comic storyline as easy and co-herant for new readers or viewers as much as possible. To Paraphrase him, any episode could be someone's first episode, so you should treat them like a geust, and pull out the easy chair for them, and not yell at them because they don't know what's going on.

Part of the reason I loved BTAS back in the day is that it didn't require me to know continuity, whereas the comics did. I only knew that Batman basics, like who he was and who his villains are and how he opperates. That knowledge was fine for that show. I think that if effort isn't made to new viewers, it's going to be much easier for them to want to ignore JLU and the DCAU and just gravitate to Teen Titans and The Batman, which don't require you to know 12 year's worth of cartoons.

[Jor-El]

I don't know why you would assume that a show like the Justice League would simply never explain who Amanda Waller is. Has it occurred to y'all that maybe she plays a roll in the alleged ongoing subplot and y'all will have a better idea about her just as soon as the show's creators want you to?

I voted "Yes" the fanboyishness is a good idea, but mostly because it's just simply not a bad idea. It's fun for us fanboys who have devoted much of our lives (however pathetically :D ) to these characters in their various media and various incarnations and it does not hurt any casual viewer. I can name 99% of all background characters in huge JLU fight sequences without referring to Karkull's "JL Watchtower" site or asking anyone here on the board, and it's nice to be able to do so. You aren't missing anything crucial and I'm getting fun little nods to the stuff I love. Everyone should be happy.

[Squall]

I'd just like to simply say that, as a fan of the modern DCAU, that continuity is very important to me. Ignoring continuity "for the sake of a story" seems like sloppy storytelling to me, especially when a large group of stories are set within the same "universe."

And it's not just the modern DCAU; I also feel that way about any franchise I enjoy, be it Star Wars, Star Trek, Harry Potter, etc.

[SAMaine]

I got to say... I'm not an avid comic reader. But I got to admit that Ultimatum was a good episode. About the only homage I got was that the Ultimen was based on the ethnic Superfriends and the Wonder Twins. The fact that Bruce Timm would dare to even MAKE characters that are like the Superfriends and then succeed in making them cool proves that the guy has guts and talent.

[Hordesman]

TAS shows established early on that a boys 8-11 or whatnot action cartoon series could have plenty of gravy for older, comic-knowledgable viewers. And most of those older fans have stayed as the most of the primary audience moved on or became non-target/gravy viewers themselves. But there's always new kids to watch these shows. The move towards using other DCU characters grew with each DCTAS show. I'm sure there was a fear of overwhelming the kids with all those characters but the increased use did not hurt. That's why we went from less than 5 non-Bat DCU characters in BTAS to ocassional STAS guest stars from the DCU to a 7 person JL to Unlimited.
I wasn't familiar with Amanda Waller but her role and its ambiguity was told well. Good storytelling isn't telling simple things but presenting things to the viewer simply/clearly. And more power to anyone who can tell stories clearly with other layers like this past JLU did with Waller, Lord and the Superfriend-esque heroes.

[sKorpia]

I think the problem I had with "Ultimatum" was the introduction of so many new things at once.

I didn't get the "Superfriends" homage. I don't know who Waller or Lord are. And there are sentient magma beings in below the earth's crust?! But that's the main focus of the entire episode. It seemed as if they had an hour-long story trying to finish in a 1/2 hour time span. Had they done one episode solely focusing and developing the Ultimen, beginning to suspect who truly gave their orders and their origins followed by another episode revealing that Waller and the government has a stake in the matter, I doubt that I'd have felt so overwhelmed and, consequently, put off.

Continuity itself is a good thing. I don't mind homages or parodies. I do mind when it gets in the way of telling the main story. If you're going to homage the Superfriends, you can do it without forcing the established JL personalities backwards to fit an older style or forcing the homages themselves into that older style while trying to maintain the newer, less enchanted style of the current show. It results in a very jarring clash when you're trying to move a story forward with serious intent.

[paulie]

I'd just like to simply say that, as a fan of the modern DCAU, that continuity is very important to me. Ignoring continuity "for the sake of a story" seems like sloppy storytelling to me, especially when a large group of stories are set within the same "universe."

Heh, I have the exact OPPOSITE view...I think that the important thing is telling a good story, and if a few continuity eggs have to be broken, so be it, no big deal. Just explain it away, does it matter that much? Otherwise the writers and producers have no freedom and are crushed under the weight of a bunch of stuff that they shouldn't have to worry about.

I think that's why I never got into comics, though. I tried to jump in with "Identity Crisis" and had no freakin' clue who most of the people were. Guess I need to start studying.

[Indefatigable]

I didn't know who Lord and Walker were and I havenever seen an episode of Superfriends, and while I didn't think it was the greatest episode, I didn't have any issues with the new characters.

[Simpler Simon]

Heh, I have the exact OPPOSITE view...I think that the important thing is telling a good story, and if a few continuity eggs have to be broken, so be it, no big deal. Just explain it away, does it matter that much? Otherwise the writers and producers have no freedom and are crushed under the weight of a bunch of stuff that they shouldn't have to worry about.
Then we'd get the Simpsons, which not only ignores its own continuity, but laughs at it and openly spits in its face.

Oh wait, my bad. The Simpsons cant even tell good stories these days.

The nice thing about the current JLU continuity is that very little of it actually referrs to *specific* past episodes, with the exception of events that have happened within the past seasons of JL/JLU (and the writers have every right to draw from events in a current series). When they do, it's nicely summed up in a line or two (Superman's brainwashing is explained by Batman, Katma Tui explains Kyle Raynar in Hearts and Minds). I much prefer this to season 1, where the show flirted with continuity so obliquely that it became annoying.

And this is what DVD season sets are for, really. To let fans paw through past episodes to see where events first happened.

[Knight]

So let me get this straight. People would have been happier if instead of Maxwell Lord and Amanda Waller being introduced that they had perhaps called them John Rich and Jane Gov? Now would that have improved the situation of getting to know the two characters? Would plugging in complete unknowns have been better than in putting characters with some history and faces into those two spots? I think some people feel like they are on the outside due to their lack of knowledge on some of the characters while other people have a better hold on the backgrounds.

Regardless of the characters comic book history it wasn't necessary to know or not know that Max and Amanda were too already established characters. They told people everything about the two characters that they needed to know during the episode. Batman spoke on who Maxwell Lord is and if you couldn't recognized that Waller is apparently some government big shot than I don't know what to say.

[Wizard]

Well, I may be biased, but I like the fanboy thing. There has been an increase of it in JLU as compared to JL, which itself showed an increase from B:TAS and S:TAS, but that's part of the show.

If you define fanboyness by bringing in things from the comics that don't directly pertain to the mythology of the character, or bringing in things that are somewhat obscure and not generally known, then fanboyishness has always been present in the DCAU. Adam West voicing the Grey Ghost is semi-fanboyish. Yes, the episode would have worked as well if he hadn't, but come on- Batman's childhood idol was voiced by Adam freaking West! Tell me that that doesn't set your little nerdy hearts atwitter. B:TAS also introduced Zatana, and TNBA gave us Jason Blood, Etrigan, and Klarion (bum-bum-BUM) the Witch Boy. Fanboy alert! S:TAS continued the trend, by bringing in Aquaman, Dr. Fate, the Flash, Kyle Rayner and the Green Lantern Corps, Lobo, and the Legion of Superheroes. Tell me those aren't total fanboy moves. I'm giving them a pass on Darkseid because he is one of the Unholy Trinity of DCU villains so a confrontation with Superman was almost inevitable. I'm also giving them a pass on the New Gods and the war between Apokolips and New Genesis, because as Superfriends showed, Darkseid and the New Gods are intertwined and bringing in one without the other causes a distinct loss of flavour. And as Ultimatum is reminding us, Batman Beyond did a riff on the Fantastic Four.

JL continued the trend. They introduced Metamorpho, Steve Trevor, Easy Company, and the Blackhawks, and made an homage to the JSA. Fanboy moves, every last one. They get a pass on the villains because they need people for the League to fight.

JLU only continues what has already been established. We have Max Lord, Amanda Waller, an homage to the Superfriends, and one more character who will be introduced in Dark Heart. I'm not going to spoil, but I will say that this character was handled in the same way that Amanda Waller was- there's a name, and similarities to the comics persona, but the backstory isn't exactly relevant at this juncture.

To conclude, the 'fanboyishness' is nothing new, and so far doesn't detract from the episodes themselves. However, as a fanboy, I could be biased, and in any event cannot hae the same understanding as non-fanboys being introduced to the characters at this time.

One last thing: if Amanda's presence bugs, remember the introduction of Vandal Savage in JL. At no time in The Savage Time is his immortality directly referenced, although it is strongly hinted at. That bugged me to no end. In his next appearance, all was explained. I doubt we've seen the last of Ms. Waller. Who knows? Maybe next time she'll bring the Squad with her.

Oh, right- that would be fanboyish.

[Squall]

I doubt we've seen the last of Ms. Waller. Who knows? Maybe next time she'll bring the Squad with her.
That would absolutely rule. :p Of course, Ms. (or is it Mrs.?) Waller will need further explanation, just like Vandal Savage did, and of course the Suicide Squad (or will they just call it "The Squad" on the show?) will need explanation on-screen, for those of us who don't read the comics. (I only know because I'm here! :) )

[Wizard]

That would absolutely rule. :p Of course, Ms. (or is it Mrs.?) Waller will need further explanation, just like Vandal Savage did, and of course the Suicide Squad (or will they just call it "The Squad" on the show?) will need explanation on-screen, for those of us who don't read the comics. (I only know because I'm here! :) )
That would rule. I agree that the Squad (which is probably what they will call it, although they might reference the full name once) will need an explanation, although that can be simple: ex-supervillains whose sentences are somewhat commuted if they work for the government. With the government conspiracy they may throw in a few clones, although hopefully TPTB won't mess with a good thing. Although having Tea around to keep them in line would be awesome.

[DLM]

My advice? Don't worry too much about whether JLU has gotten to "fanboyish". You are about to see one of the great episodes in DCAU history in two weeks.And the only continutity that matters is character development.

EDIT: I refuse to answer this poll... Kerry equals "maybe".. yeah cute..d*mba32

[Ian]

So let me get this straight. People would have been happier if instead of Maxwell Lord and Amanda Waller being introduced that they had perhaps called them John Rich and Jane Gov?As a fanboy, I'd have to say no; as an objective viewer, I have to say it wouldn't have made a difference.

Let me clarify my position. As it was, the only reason I cared about wether Maxwell Lord lived or died was because he was, well, Maxwell Lord. He hadn't earned my concern, yet he had it, just because I knew him from the comic books. It's a cheap, dishonest shortcut to making us care, and unfortunately it's occuring with more frequently.

Now, were we supposed to care about Maxwell Lord at that point? I can't say. If we were, I'd have to say the writers failed. Like I said, the only reason I cared was because he was Maxwell Lord. Those not familiar with him would have even less reason.

It's the same with all of the nameless heroes in The Return. Amazo could have killed them all, and I wouldn't have cared, if they had not been characters I knew. If I hadn't known who Red Tornado was, his ddeath would have been meaningless. For people who don't actually know them, he would have been no different from all the ships Amazo scrapped. In fact, that episode is the best example of fanboyism gone wrong: it was promoted as "Oh my god, look at all the heroes! Fangasm!" It turns out that was all it had, at the expense of a sensible plot.

This had not happened before. By the time Starcrossed rolled around, we had gotten to know the seven JL members to some extent or another. We cared about them on their own terms, not because we knew them from the comic books.

This process has, like you've mentioned, occured across the DCAU. Once we had accepted B:TAS on its own terms as its own universe, we moved on to Superman. The same thing happened there, with Batman Beyond, and with most, if not all, of the Guest Stars from the rest of the DCU.

The Justice League is a different case. While we got to know them, somewhat, they still weren't fully developed characters. We knew nothing of their private lives, or even in some cases, their secret identities, in some cases. One could argue that we still had ground to cover with these seven heroes before moving on to others. Still, The Powers That Be felt it necessary to add more characters to the mix. So far, with a few exceptions (Initiation, Fearful Symmetry, GSNT...Hawk & Dove) most the new characters, unlike guest stars in previous series, have been interchangeable, when they've appeared at all. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here, and we'll see Waller and if we're lucky, a fourth of the JL developed in the future, but we're already 9 episodes in, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

[paulie]

Well said, that's really what I was getting at...most of the stuff that could be considered "fanboy-ish" goes over my head, so I don't worry about it...

DCAU shows have always introduced comic characters (I looked it up!)...in the past, these characters (some more than others) were introduced and fleshed out somewhat...cool with me :)

But there's just not enough time in JLU to flesh out the characters, and combined with the new serial nature of the show, I'm left wondering why I should care about them. They're major players, apparently...but I wouldn't know that beyond the generic...so I'm apprehensive...hope that's understandable, because I'm wondering if I need to brush up on the DC universe in order to understand what's going on....I think that's part of the point in the original post.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Pop quiz: which of these secondary characters seen in the earliest episodes of Batman the Animated Series existed before in the Batman comics:

- Mayor Hamilton Hill
- Commissioner James Gordon
- Detective Harvey Bullock
- D.A. Harvey Dent
- Officer Renee Montoya

Answers: Hill & Montoya were created for the series. Bullock, Dent, and Gordon all existed as pre-existing comic characters.

So, does Bullock become a less enjoyable character because he had a pre-existing counterpart in the comics? Is Montoya a more enjoyable one because she didn't?

-- Ed/ce

[Mister Intensity]

Mayor Hamilton Hill wasn't a character created for B:TAS, he originally appeared in the early eighties as a pro-Batman candidate who promised to take Commissioner Gordon out of office. He won the Mayorial race and briefly removed Gordon out of office. This took place in 1981-1982 issues of Batman and Detective. Other subplots included the brief breakup and eventual reunion of Batman and Robin (Dick Grayson); Robin's relationship with the vampire Dala, who appeared in the earliest issues of Detective Comics; the return of Rupert Thorne, which tied in with Mayor Hill's storyline; the return of Vicki Vale. A good, if somewhat soapy, period in Batman comics, with stories that have been constant;y retold in increasingly tedious ways, particularly the tension between Bruce and Dick (that's why a lot of long time fans get upset over Nightwing's inferiority complex regarding Batman because he was over it by 1984 when he took over the Nightwing identity, this is not something that whole storylines in Nightwing's solo title should revolve around twenty years later).

I hope that clears things up and encourage people to go to the back issue bins.

Mister Intensity

[Mister Intensity]

Interesting Hamilton Hill tidbit: he installed Det. Harvey Bullock as Gordon's assistant in order to sabotage him. Bullock participated in this scheme until he inadvertently cause Gordon to have a heart attack, staring a series of events leadin to Hill leaving the office of Mayor and started Bullock's loyality to Gordon.

Mister Intensity

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Mayor Hamilton Hill wasn't a character created for B:TAS, he originally appeared in the early eighties as a pro-Batman candidate who promised to take Commissioner Gordon out of office. He won the Mayorial race and briefly removed Gordon out of office.
Learn something new every day...

If anything, though, this reinforces my point even more. I'm going to bet a nickel that a lot of the people who are complaining about the introduction of Maxwell Lord or Amanda Waller, and how they have to know all about the comics to understand or care about them had no idea Mayor Hill was a comic book character beforehand. Does knowing that he came from the comics somehow make him more difficult to accept or enjoy as a character on the show?

I think it's a valid criticism to say that the Wall and Max Lord were thinly sketched out in "Ultimatum," but I don't think their introduction causes JLU to drown in continuity any more than the introduction of Professor Hamilton or Bibbo.

I like the fact that the creators of JLU want to stretch out a bit and start using full seasons to tell larger stories rather than focus on done-in-one 22 minute episodes. I may not think this season isn't as successful at doing it as they did in season 2, but that's not the same thing.

-- Ed/Ace

[Sue]

I don't think viewers have to be familiar with every guest star to enjoy JLU. When I first started watching Justice League, I never read a DC comic before. I didn't know who Jason Blood/Etrigan, the Blackhawks, and Vandal Savage were. I also didn't get that "Legends" was a nod to the JSA. The same goes for when Zatanna was introduced in Batman. None of that mattered. I stilled enjoyed those shows. Now that I'm more knowledgable about the DCU, I get more of a kick out of guest appearances, but I'd still like JLU if I didn't get all the fan stuff.

[Squall]

I don't think viewers have to be familiar with every guest star to enjoy JLU. When I first started watching Justice League, I never read a DC comic before. I didn't know who Jason Blood/Etrigan, the Blackhawks, and Vandal Savage were. I also didn't get that "Legends" was a nod to the JSA. The same goes for when Zatanna was introduced in Batman. None of that mattered. I stilled enjoyed those shows. Now that I'm more knowledgable about the DCU, I get more of a kick out of guest appearances, but I'd still like JLU if I didn't get all the fan stuff.
Perhaps, but reading the comic books -- or doing research on the Internet -- has never been, and should never be, a prerequisite to understanding the Bruce Timm DCAU. The only prerequisite should be the past Bruce Timm DCAU shows.

Unfortunately, since "Initiation" and every episode after it, it seems that Bruce Timm & Co. are straying farther and farther from this idea though... :(

[DLM]

P
Unfortunately, since "Initiation" and every episode after it, it seems that Bruce Timm & Co. are straying farther and farther from this idea though... :( I disagree.

How's that for succinctness? :)

[Fone Bone]

John Kerry's catching up in the votes. C'mon we can still win this thing!;)

[Simpler Simon]

Perhaps, but reading the comic books -- or doing research on the Internet -- has never been, and should never be, a prerequisite to understanding the Bruce Timm DCAU. The only prerequisite should be the past Bruce Timm DCAU shows.
Not quite. Etrigan's appearance on TNBA was pretty much pulled out of nowhere, including a history with Bruce Wayne that still hasn't been covered. Superman also knew Dr. Fate from some previous aventure before Karkull (not the mod) came along.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Perhaps, but reading the comic books -- or doing research on the Internet -- has never been, and should never be, a prerequisite to understanding the Bruce Timm DCAU. The only prerequisite should be the past Bruce Timm DCAU shows.

Unfortunately, since "Initiation" and every episode after it, it seems that Bruce Timm & Co. are straying farther and farther from this idea though... :(
Can you point out a few specific instances of characters or stories which do not work without prior knowledge of the comics? I'm asking because I'm genuinely not sure whether I don't see it because it's not there or because I already have that background knowledge of the show.

-- Ed/Ace

[ktoriyama]

First thing first, please don't kill me. Second of all I think continuity is good, as long as they do things, that a person should be expected to know about. Any fan of the DCAU should have watched

Batman:TAS
The New Adventures of Batman and Robin
Superman:TAS
Batman Beyond
To some extent Static
And of course JL, this is damn near season ( I dunno, lost count )
It is somewhat good to be familar with the Hanna Bababera DCAU, as in Ultimatem. In this case it is good to draw on past material.

But when you include material that there is no way in hell I could know about from the comics before I was born, aww hell no. I only knew about Maxwell Lord and Amanda Walker when I came here.

[paulie]

Howdy,


Can you point out a few specific instances of characters or stories which do not work without prior knowledge of the comics? I'm asking because I'm genuinely not sure whether I don't see it because it's not there or because I already have that background knowledge of the show.

-- Ed/AceHi Ace,

Hope you don't mind me replying :ack: This is just my personal take...

There hasn't been an instance where a STORY didn't work...the producers are too good to let that happen. It's more of the overall impact and enjoyment of the show--a very subjective measure, of course. Now that we've seen a few episodes, I can see the balance they're trying to strike. Somtimes it's worked better than other times:

In "Initiation", the camera panned over all of the heroes...and all I could think was "wow, they look cool...who are you?". But the real focus was on the GA/Bats conversation. Good.

"The Return" is really where it didn't work for me. There were lots of shots of heroes fighting AMAZO, but in this case, they could have all been generic soldier guys. Again, it was just a "wow, look at all of those heroes...who are you?" Poor Red Tornado: he got lit up, and on top of that, I didn't really care.

"TGSNT" just had some wide-angle shots of the heroes fighting Mordu, but the focus was on one character, Booster Gold. Good.

"Ultimatum" this seems to be the episode that's getting everybody riled up. For me, it's the "generic character" syndrome again. Lord and Waller did nothing for me, aside from Waller's final line. And that's because they were used as generic characters, not because I didn't know who they were. In that sense, they could have been any character as far as I could tell.

But they would have meant more, and been a cooler episode, if I DID know them, right? JLU, more than any other DCAU show, is like this...that's the real point of this discussion.

Since JLU is using all these heroes, it seems that the folks who know them already are enjoying the show more. This wasn't a problem in earlier shows...I mean, I didn't know who Hawkgirl, Manhunter or GL were before GL either, but by 1/2 way through JL S1 I had a good idea. I want to say again that this isn't really a value judgment on the show...they can't please everybody all of the time, and it's cool that the comics fans out there are getting to see all of these heroes animated. :) Hell, I was excited just to see the Joker come back in "Wild Cards", so I can see where it's cool...

And sometimes random hereos DO work for me, as the cowboy guy was way cool when he was taking out the robo-baddies in "Dark Heart"

So it's up and down, as far as this non-comics-reading fan goes.

[Jor-El]

For the record, Paulie, I am an avid comics reader and I am not enjoying the show more with all of these excessive guest stars. Ace made great points with not knowing who Bullock and Dent were in the comics, and I would very much like to have seen you refute that point in your rebuttal. Also, I want to just reiterate what the user Knight said:

So let me get this straight. People would have been happier if instead of Maxwell Lord and Amanda Waller being introduced that they had perhaps called them John Rich and Jane Gov? Now would that have improved the situation of getting to know the two characters? Would plugging in complete unknowns have been better than in putting characters with some history and faces into those two spots? I think some people feel like they are on the outside due to their lack of knowledge on some of the characters while other people have a better hold on the backgrounds.

Regardless of the characters comic book history it wasn't necessary to know or not know that Max and Amanda were too already established characters. They told people everything about the two characters that they needed to know during the episode. Batman spoke on who Maxwell Lord is and if you couldn't recognized that Waller is apparently some government big shot than I don't know what to say.
That says it all. Would you and/or Squall care to respond?

[Teo]

I have to come down on the side where too many new characters may be hurting the show. However, my criticism isn't that the show just throws a character into the fray (personally, I don't like origin stories very much), but that it never builds anything around them. For instance, Vixen, I didn't like too much, but whether you do or not, it's not a huge deal because she won't likely be appearing in a significant way ever again. Booster Gold is my possibly my favorite newly introduced character because he had depth. His origin was the one minute intro by Skeets, and then he had a full 21 minutes to develop his character and let the audience get to know him as a person. If the show is just going to use a silent, flying, beam-shooting hero, why not use one we care about? Some cameos are fine, but the montages characters each shooting a villain are not that interesting (Dark Heart was watered down by this IMO, plus the needless Batman-is-cool moments). I'd certainly like it if they'd take some time with characters instead of having them be a backdrop to Batman being cool (C'mon! He had 100+ episodes to himself).

Point is, it doesn't matter if the characters have a comic book background or not, if they just toss too many of them in there is just gets boring to those of us who don't have extensive background in comics. Also, it doesn't matter if characters have a book background if the time is taken to make them meaningful and interesting in the DCAU. The scope of JLU has become so broad and fast that it's seldom that they slow down and weave a proper story.

---
Gunnm

[paulie]

For the record, Paulie, I am an avid comics reader and I am not enjoying the show more with all of these excessive guest stars. Ace made great points with not knowing who Bullock and Dent were in the comics, and I would very much like to have seen you refute that point in your rebuttal. Also, I want to just reiterate what the user Knight said:
That says it all. Would you and/or Squall care to respond?Hmm...I actually agreed with Ace for the most part, so no need for rebuttal :) I just wanted to detail some of the parts of JLU where I felt lost due to the new characters, since he asked (sort of)...

As far as what Knight said, I've NEVER felt "left out" of a DCAU show until I watched "The Return" and "Ultimatum"...and even then, it was more a feeling of "huh?" then a feeling of being on the outside...

I think we can sum up this discussion:

1) Lord and Waller didn't have such good characterization (yet, hopefully they will), which causes...

2) Non-comics-readers like me to become apprehensive that JLU is going to expect the audience to bring in more outside knowledge in order to enjoy it...BUT

3) We can agree that it doesn't matter whether a DCAU character has a comic background or not, it's more how they're used and developed in the show

Let's see where this show takes us! :cool:

[Ian]

Answers: Hill & Montoya were created for the series. Bullock, Dent, and Gordon all existed as pre-existing comic characters.

So, does Bullock become a less enjoyable character because he had a pre-existing counterpart in the comics? Is Montoya a more enjoyable one because she didn't?
No, and no. The difference is, it didn't matter if they came from the comics or not; they were developed properly before they had any significant screentime (or were developed within that time), regardless of who created. Red Tornado and twenty other heroes haven't.

Let's put it this way. To expand on Knight's previous example, say that the Ultimen where completely new heroes, and that Amanda and Lord were new characters. Given their development in this episode, would you have cared about them at all? Do the same for the extras in The Return. If you don't develop the characters, then you risk losing the interest everyone but the comic book fans. And it's not like it's impossible: X-Men Evolution proved that action show with large casts can be managed.


Point is, it doesn't matter if the characters have a comic book background or not, if they just toss too many of them in there is just gets boring to those of us who don't have extensive background in comics. Also, it doesn't matter if characters have a book background if the time is taken to make them meaningful and interesting in the DCAU. The scope of JLU has become so broad and fast that it's seldom that they slow down and weave a proper story.
This. Is. Exactly what I'm saying.




First thing first, please don't kill me. Second of all I think continuity is good, as long as they do things, that a person should be expected to know about. Any fan of the DCAU should have watched

Batman:TAS
The New Adventures of Batman and Robin
Superman:TAS
Batman Beyond
To some extent Static
And of course JL, this is damn near season ( I dunno, lost count)
This is another problem. B:TAS, Batman and Robin, BB, and JL are only half compilated, in half-assed collections. Superman and Static aren't at all. None of these series, with the exception of Static, are currently re-running. For those who began with JL and don't like downloading, it's damn near impossible to catch up on these episodes.

[Simpler Simon]

No, and no. The difference is, it didn't matter if they came from the comics or not; they were developed properly before they had any significant screentime (or were developed within that time), regardless of who created. Red Tornado and twenty other heroes haven't.
Thing is, the show never asked or wanted for you to care about any of those twenty-some odd heroes in The Return. Their fights weren't the point of the story. They were basically a distraction while the characters getting development (Atom and Luthor) were working on their big massive cannon thing. You know the return of AMAZO has to be big, and has to include a lot of action. I'd rather have some potentially interesting heroes playing backup as opposed to generic soldiers.

[/quote]This is another problem. B:TAS, Batman and Robin, BB, and JL are only half compilated, in half-assed collections. Superman and Static aren't at all. None of these series, with the exception of Static, are currently re-running. For those who began with JL and don't like downloading, it's damn near impossible to catch up on these episodes.[/QUOTE]
There are only select episodes from the previous shows you need to see to get a better understanding of JLU. It pretty much comes down to the Darkseid episodes from STAS and The Call from BB. The creative team has been very careful so far to brief viewers on past history (Twilight, Fearful Symmetry). Any episodes in the past are purely supplemental material.

[Sue]

Perhaps, but reading the comic books -- or doing research on the Internet -- has never been, and should never be, a prerequisite to understanding the Bruce Timm DCAU. The only prerequisite should be the past Bruce Timm DCAU shows.I don't see it that way. I didn't feel the need to research the DCU or start reading comics to understand JL. If anything, the show got me interested in DC. Any research I did was purely out of curiousity and fun :cool:

[Squall]

...We can agree that it doesn't matter whether a DCAU character has a comic background or not, it's more how they're used and developed in the show...
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. :p I have no problems with them pulling characters from the comics for the modern DCAU shows. I love it, in fact! :sweat: But... the Mr. Lord and Ms. Waller on JLU are totally different characters, continuity-wise, than their comics counterparts. Their characters will only be considered developed in the modern DCAU continuity if they're actually developed on-screen, in the actual TV show.

I agree with the sentiment of the above posters that said that the problem isn't that Bruce Timm & Co. have gotten characters from the comics, it's that they've gotten way too many characters, too quickly, to develop on the show in modern DCAU continuity. Who knows, maybe they'll get 200 episodes to make JLU a grand show, and sort through all these characters. :anime:

[Fone Bone]

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. :p I have no problems with them pulling characters from the comics for the modern DCAU shows. I love it, in fact! :sweat: But... the Mr. Lord and Ms. Waller on JLU are totally different characters, continuity-wise, than their comics counterparts. Their characters will only be considered developed in the modern DCAU continuity if they're actually developed on-screen, in the actual TV show.

I agree with the sentiment of the above posters that said that the problem isn't that Bruce Timm & Co. have gotten characters from the comics, it's that they've gotten way too many characters, too quickly, to develop on the show in modern DCAU continuity. Who knows, maybe they'll get 200 episodes to make JLU a grand show, and sort through all these characters. :anime:Don't even say that. The idea is just too great to be true. Heck I would settle for counting the original JL if it meant we could concievably get 150 JLUs. It will never happen though. Darn it.

[Mister Intensity]

All these complaints about JLU drowning continuity is not the result of the large roster, which really doesn't need a major explanation from any continuity, but is the result of the weakness of the conspiracy story, which does. Interesting that the conspiracy story, which many of you appaluded upon its introduction in "Fearful Symmetry", is starting to get panned upon its actually used as a subplot in an actual episode.

As for the use of the JLU's roster of 60 or so members, it's supposed to give the viewer the perception that the Justice League is a large league. It's like Star Trek where the viewer is supposed to get the impression that the crew of Enterprise has a crew of 400 or so, not a crew of seven. While we regularly see seven people, realistically, it takes more than seven to operate a starship, so the crew is filled out with a group of "red shirts," individuals who show up to give the impression that there's an actual crew. Ocassionally, we may get some character development from some of the "red shirts" but for the most part their function is to fill out the ship and to be sacrificed to the enemy of the week.

That's the same thing with most of the JLU members, they're there to fill out the membership. Ocassionally, some of them will get some character development and some may become regulars but for the most part their function is to make The League look like a league. Their purpose in "The Return" was to give the impression that Amazo was now so powerful that he could take out about 20 to 40 heroes without much effort. We weren't supposed to mourn those heroes, we're supposed to say, "WOW, AMAZO IS SO POWERFUL THAT HE EASILY TAKES OUT MORE THAN TWENTY HEROES WITHOUT A SCRATCH!" He sliced Red Tornado in half but we weren't supposed to mourn him, and since that scene made it clear that he's a robot, I suspect he'll be back, but I'll admit that wasn't a smart story choice since the viewers aren't clued in to Red Tornado's nature and that they should have just had him defeated not sliced in half. Other than that, the large JLU roster has been effectively used in "The Return" and "The Greatest Story Never Told," as a way to confront threats that are too much for a smaller group of heroes.

As for "Ultimen," if it wasn't for the Superfriends tribute I wouldn't have enjoyed the episode as much. While I do think that Max Lord wasn't handled with the justice he deserves, -- coming off as a generic manipulative businessman, instead of the quirky greedy man with the heart of gold he was portrayed as in Justice League International -- Amanda Waller served her purpose in the story, provided that the writers did a good job hooking people into the conspiracy storyline. It was only used before in "Fearful Symmetry" and that story spent so much time filling the viewer with so much information that it never gave the viewer a chance to breathe and think about the long-term story possibilities. "Fearful Symmetry" mostly consisted of mostly exposition that had big implications but never had a chance to succinctly explain what those implications were. In light of this story, Amanda Waller's purpose was to get the viewer to ask, "who is this woman, and why and how does she knows so much?" We're not supposed to know who she is, we're supposed to ask "WHO IS SHE," with the blanks being filled in later. The answer to that question depends on how much we care about the conspiracy story and that really depends on how well you know DCAU continuity.

While having a large continuity could be good, at the same time the primary audience for JLU are kids who weren't born when B:TAS debuted and not enough is filled in for those who haven't seen S:TAS to make them care. And for some kids and adults JL and JLU is their introduction to the DCAU, and other than Starcrossed, most of the conspiracy stuff refers to S:TAS and may cause viewers who haven't seen that show to be lost.

Mister Intensity

[ktoriyama]

This is another problem. B:TAS, Batman and Robin, BB, and JL are only half compilated, in half-assed collections. Superman and Static aren't at all. None of these series, with the exception of Static, are currently re-running. For those who began with JL and don't like downloading, it's damn near impossible to catch up on these episodes.My good friend are you suggesting gasp illegality. I am shocked. :eek:

On a serious note, true, but every other show above has drawn from other shows above, Static especially. In that vein it wouldn't hurt.

[Ian]

Today, I remember another episode that really required knowledge of the books to truly enjoy: Legends of The Dark Knight. While I greatly enjoyed that episode, it was mostly because I recognized the stories it homaged, and I appreciated seeing those versions of Batman come to life.


As for the use of the JLU's roster of 60 or so members, it's supposed to give the viewer the perception that the Justice League is a large league. It's like Star Trek where the viewer is supposed to get the impression that the crew of Enterprise has a crew of 400 or so, not a crew of seven. While we regularly see seven people, realistically, it takes more than seven to operate a starship, so the crew is filled out with a group of "red shirts," individuals who show up to give the impression that there's an actual crew. Ocassionally, we may get some character development from some of the "red shirts" but for the most part their function is to fill out the ship and to be sacrificed to the enemy of the week.

That's the same thing with most of the JLU members, they're there to fill out the membership. Ocassionally, some of them will get some character development and some may become regulars but for the most part their function is to make The League look like a league. Their purpose in "The Return" was to give the impression that Amazo was now so powerful that he could take out about 20 to 40 heroes without much effort. We weren't supposed to mourn those heroes, we're supposed to say, "WOW, AMAZO IS SO POWERFUL THAT HE EASILY TAKES OUT MORE THAN TWENTY HEROES WITHOUT A SCRATCH!" He sliced Red Tornado in half but we weren't supposed to mourn him, and since that scene made it clear that he's a robot, I suspect he'll be back, but I'll admit that wasn't a smart story choice since the viewers aren't clued in to Red Tornado's nature and that they should have just had him defeated not sliced in half. Other than that, the large JLU roster has been effectively used in "The Return" and "The Greatest Story Never Told," as a way to confront threats that are too much for a smaller group of heroes.
I have several problems with this. The red shirts in programs like Lost or Star Trek aren't a large part of the show; JLU's (alleged) ones are. Heck, their entire ad campaign is based on "new heroes". Second, the red shirts in the other programs are necessary to mantain suspension of disbelief; (okay, so the middle section of the plane is mostly intact, yet only 14 people survived? Riiiight) JL doesn't have that problem. Besides, showing this many heroes without individualizing them only dilutes the rest of the product. How special is Superman, really, when there's forty other people who can do his job?

Not only that, seeing things this way would mean that the writers really are writing for the DCU fans. Viewers not familiar with the DCU don't need red shirts, and the stories so far haven't needed red shirts, so it would mean that the only ones who need them are DCU fans or The Powers That Be Themselves.

That being said, I believe that there is some truth to your statement: some characters are being used as red shirts. I'd like to believe, however, that, if the writers could, they'd really try to develop as many characters as they can.

[raykremer]

I'm not upset at all that Waller and Lord were brought in and I have no idea who they are. I just say, "Oh hey, new characters", not "Crap, who are these people supposed to be from the comics?"

If not knowing a character's comic book background ruins an episode, then JL has been a crap show from the beginning, because when "Secret Origins" aired, I knew next to nothing about Martian Manhunter.

[Ian]

And pray tell, how is that different from the first episode of Veronica Mars, Lost, or any other series? I knew nothing about Veronica or her world when the series began, but in one episode, I realized that it was a world worth following. JLU, with some exceptions, has not done that in nine episodes.

[Simpler Simon]

Today, I remember another episode that really required knowledge of the books to truly enjoy: Legends of The Dark Knight. While I greatly enjoyed that episode, it was mostly because I recognized the stories it homaged, and I appreciated seeing those versions of Batman come to life.
That's true. I really didn't like that episode when it first aired, but I got more out of it once I read The Dark Knight Returns. I'm still indifferent to the Dick Sprang tribute, but the Frank Miller one was amazingly spot on. Still, you wouldnt care as much if you hadn't read the source.


I'd like to believe, however, that, if the writers could, they'd really try to develop as many characters as they can.
That's also true, give the show time. Characters like Huntress, Wildcat, Vigilante, and Vixen are red shirts now, but will get spotlights as the show progresses. I think JLU's recieved a lot of flack because it promised us 60 heroes then spent the first half the season mostly on the core 6.