Justice League Unlimited "Ultimatum" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Bird Boy]

JLU makes it's return...


http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/talkback.jpg (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/)

Episode #9 - Ultimatum
Original Airdate - December 4th, 2004

The Justice League meets the Ultimen, a popular group of young heroes who are about to discover their own horrifying secret origins.

Comments?

[Wilco911]

Sweet Zombie Jesus....it's the Wonder Twins(and other renamed Super Friends). :eek:

[Vagrant]

Stilted dialogue and a plot choppier than the Bearing Sea...but it has Aquaman. :rolleyes:

[Jade_GL]

Yep, all the Super Friends people loved to make fun of.

Samurai, Apache Chief, the Wonder Twins, and Black Vulcan.

Gotta admit, they are much cooler here in this incarnation than in the previous. Especially the Wonder Twins. Form of water is actually kicking now. :)

[Youko Minamino]

This is an obvious omage to Samurai, Apache Chief, The Wonder Twins, and Black Vulcan(Super Volt!!!)

[Vagrant]

I reassess my opinion...

I've read better fanfics.

[Beat]

If nothing else, the Justice League pwned the Superfriends. And in the end, isn't that all that matters?

[Duke]

Gotta love the Hall of Justice being the HQ.

And I must say, I'm loving this "government-coverup" subplot that's throughout the season. Seems the people in charge know all the JL's secret identities.

[Killtacular]

I liked this episode better when it was about the Terrific Trio. "Heroes" was a good episode. This is just average, or even sub-average. I mean plot point for plot point I can't really tell the difference between the episodes. Except that this episode is attempting to start a continuity that will be explored later.

I hope the story they are trying to tell, the overall arc, is worth plowing through these mediocre episodes in the process.

[ManicWebb]

Sweet Zombie Jesus....it's the Wonder Twins(and other renamed Super Friends). :eek: Holy Mother of Jebus, you're right! It's Apache Chief, Samurai, and Black Vulcan!

It's only a matter of time before we meet Marvin, Wendy, and their darn dog.

[Dr_Flask]

Dunno if I'm posting too early.

Eh, so far this ep is lame. I like the Native and Asian-American Ultimate but the Wonder-Twins wannabes grates and The Black one sounds ridiculous. Still for some reason I like most ofd them more then the 50+ heroes appearing so far this season. But that's not saying much.:rolleyes:

So far it bugs that:
*Aquaman seems too chummy with the JLU.

*Superman was way too jealous at that Asian Ultimate sppech. I guess Supes wants to be the one that gives long, drawn-out speeches.:sweat:

*Biazzro(sp?) was wasted and less powerful than I remember. BTW, how did Giganta came to recruit him? They made for a ridiculous teamup.

*That heavy-set black lady seemed like a lesbian. I hated her as soon as she spoke(not for the reasons I think she a lesbian).

*Heavy-set black lady comment to Bats was too general. She and the rest of her govt. lapdogs MAY NOT know who Bats real identity is? Look at Batman car, Bat-jet or plane and his other gadgets; who wouldn't think that Batman is rich to afford all those gadgets. Bruce reaction was too telling, even for him.

*Did love the comment of, "mine is bigger than yours", though.

Didn't love this episode but that been the case for JLU this whole season. Continunity was ok but I felt Batman Beyond did the "whole superheroes are dying" angle better.

My grade is 7/10.

[Vagrant]

Yep, all the Super Friends people loved to make fun of.

Samurai, Apache Chief, the Wonder Twins, and Black Vulcan.

Gotta admit, they are much cooler here in this incarnation than in the previous. Especially the Wonder Twins. Form of water is actually kicking now. :) The only redeeming part was the writer made awful, boring characters interesting. But the Wonder Twins vs. Aquman? They may be young (one year old to be exact), but are they actually that dense?

[Eddie G.]

Pretty great episode all in all. I liked the action in this episodes, with the exception of "FTMWHE" and "The Return" we got a lot more action than JLU usually gives us with three different sets of rogues.

With the exception of some fun quotes, a great ending, and the Ultimen the writing wasn't great.

Oh and fantastic ending.

[kaine23]

Hmmm, intresting...

[Duke]

You know, if one of the richest people in the world is the equivalent of a nameless flunkie in this subplot, you gotta figure this is even more dangerous to the JL than Darkseid could ever plot.

Then again, I love these kinds of subplots, so it may just be me. :sweat:

[Vagrant]

I liked this episode better when it was about the Terrific Trio. "Heroes" was a good episode. This is just average, or even sub-average. I mean plot point for plot point I can't really tell the difference between the episodes. Except that this episode is attempting to start a continuity that will be explored later.

I hope the story they are trying to tell, the overall arc, is worth plowing through these mediocre episodes in the process. You're either being unusually generous or I'm being uncharacteristically harsh.

[ktoriyama]

This episode most definately kicked ass. Looks like a continuation of the conspiracry theory. And they know who Batman is! They couldn't, but they do, they way the woman said it. In the end who is going to win, the gov. or the JL? O and the credits hinted at Shariah's (Hawkgirl no more) return. O yeah. Wasn't there a thread about how the creator of Black Vulcan didn't want anyone using him? Last thing, to whoever did this site, you rock. This site is apparently linux links, a text only browser, compatible. I can even post. Look at me! :-)

[Rabi~en~Rose]

I liked this episode better when it was about the Terrific Trio. "Heroes" was a good episode.

aw beaten to it :( I was going to say how it was very much like the BB episode!

I still liked this one though but it confirmed my fears from Fearful Symetry about the government having files on the league members and maybe even knowing who they are :( the story wasn't to original but the action was better and I kind of liked these guys better then the Terrific Trio. maybe the Ultimen are precursors to the Trio?

[Johnny Cakes]

It's nice to finally see some new episodes. It was great to see Aquaman work the wonder twins. But, how dumb was that water kid to flood the room while fighting Aquaman? Overall, I enjoyed this episode. It was a nice nod to the Super Friends. Giaganta and Bizzaro had my hopes up that we going to see more villans from the Legion of Doom, oh well.

[Jade_GL]

My overall opinion is that I liked it more as a plot piece in the developing story arc than on it's own. Namely, it wasn't spectacular or mindblowing, but it was fun and it did a great job of setting up the larger unfolding story.

Like the Ultimen. They were interesting and I felt bad for them at the end. The episode did a good enough job of invoving me in their story, so I felt something when I knew they were not going to survive because of their genetic problems.

Again, I actually never thought that the Wonder Twin powers were useful, especially the water powers, but this reimagining actually made them pretty cool, and the water powers actually were devastating (though using them on Aquaman.... dur....)

Anyway, average but I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. The first ten minutes was meh but the last half was much better. All in all, I would maybe give it a 3 out of 5, but I am intrigued by where this is going.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Whoa man! Didn't expect to see Max Lord and Amanda Waller! That rocked!

[Dogbert]

I liked the episode, but the storyline was way unoriginal. Did anyone else get flashbacks of Heroes's The Terrific Trio with a Spider-Man: TAS MJ clone twist?

7.5 out of 10

[Knight]

I gave this ep a 4.4 if for nothing more than the government subplot being further explored.

Other random thoughts-

The introduction of Amanda Waller was great and they really captured her character. She even mentions the (Suicide) Squad. Hope they make a appearence soon.

Superman was taking down way too easily by the wind guy (cant recall his name at the moment) if he was faking to get a reaction that would have made it more beleivable. I mean the guy can hold his breathe for a long time. He shouldnt have been able to have the air sucked out of him.

[Space Cadet]

I liked this episode better when it was about the Terrific Trio. "Heroes" was a good episode. This is just average, or even sub-average. I mean plot point for plot point I can't really tell the difference between the episodes. Except that this episode is attempting to start a continuity that will be explored later.

I hope the story they are trying to tell, the overall arc, is worth plowing through these mediocre episodes in the process.
I was thinking the same thing too. "Heroes" was a good episode, but this one was just average. I did like the whole "government-owned superheroes" subplot and that one of the members joined the league.

[Vagrant]

I still liked this one though but it confirmed my fears from Fearful Symetry about the government having files on the league members and maybe even knowing who they are :( the story wasn't to original but the action was better and I kind of liked these guys better then the Terrific Trio. maybe the Ultimen are precursors to the Trio? It's nice to know all this stuff now, but it simply wasn't done in an interesting way. It was all kind of dumped out there with no foreshadowing. The comment at the end sounded like a cheap, obvious bully tatic not fitting a high government...oh, never mind.

Finally, who is the Terrific Trio?

[Red X Unmasked]

Pretty good. I liked it, but I had some problems.

Likes
I liked the Ultimen and the homage to Superfriends
I liked when that lady (I forget her name. I think they said Walker) implied that she knew who Batman was
I liked Batman's line at the end "Ours are bigger". That pwns all lines!

Dislikes
I didn't like all the name changes. Though they were in a way nessesary, I thought they were just dumb. Especially Long Shadow and Juice.
I didn't like the villains Bizzaro and Garganta, but since its a homage, I'll let it slide
I REALLY was annoyed by "Juice's" lines. I mean his voice was horrible, and he was just a real boring character. They could've at least had him say SOMETHING useful.

Can't wait for Dark Heart and Wake the Dead.

[Phantasm]

THIS SSSSSOOO ROCKED!!!!!!
IT WAS SO GREAT TO SEE BATMAN AGAIN!!!!!!
DIDN'T REALIZE HOW MUCH I MISSED IT!!!!!
WHY DID I EVER CRITICIZE THE INTRO AGAIN?!

(Takes a deep breath and composes herself)

...okay.The theme wasn't exactly orginial even though it did give the Ultimen a plausible enough cause for their actions.And I did sympathize with them to some extend.

Diana's presence certainly made me warm up to her again.She seemed...herself. Nice, kind and the diplomat that she is deemed to be. And c'mon, even boy scout Superman has to show moods every once in a while!Aquaman...meh...never did care much for him.

And I'll say it. BATMAN STOLE THE SHOW!!!! "Mine's bigger than yours!" HA!:anime:
He had some slick action sequences.Though I STILL miss his dramatic entrances...and was that Batman having fun with his jet at the begining!LOL!That's just so cute!:p

The woman who made the 'rich boy' comment reminded me of Condolisa (sp) Rice for some reason...must be that ugly sneer she wears all the time and the speech mannersims...

A darn good episode. Won't go as far to say it was 'great' because I have seen better...but just the very fact that Batman is present puts this one a few notches higher on my JLU episode list...


"mine is bigger than yours." honestly!:anime:

[Dogbert]

I liked this episode better when it was about the Terrific Trio. "Heroes" was a good episode.Beat to the punch...

[Youko Recca]

Alright but not that good. Or not as good as it could have been. The main fault was how some of the characters weren't being played to a hundred percent of their personalities. Aquaman was too open and dare I say...nice--r? Batman needed to be a little more calm and cool, like when confrontated by a no-name government official lady from out of nowhere....she shouldn't have intimidated anyone in the least. Luckily Wonder Women was better played to make up for it.

So yeah. Alright, but nothing special. Good thing I feel a better episode coming.

[Bejammin2000]

Point One: The re-done Superfriends. I grew up on those guys, so this was cool to see them redone.

Point Two: Maxwell Lord. Ahhhh.... it's not a trip down nostalgia lane with the 'civilian' leader of Justice League International.

Point Three: Amanda Waller. With her in, Task Force X can't be far behind.

Point Four: The Squad was mentioned. That's good. They're due a run in with the League.

Point Five: Waller's last line. I like.


I liked this. Just a fun trip down memory lane and expanding on the plot introduced in Fearful Symetry.

Also, I'd like to ask.... who hear thinks that Longshadow is gonna be cured of his cellular degeneration?




BJ

[Mister Intensity]

The plot was weak and I'm not crazy about the way this government conspiracy is shaping up but the Superfriends parody aspect of the episode was dead on. Everything from the Ultimen's earnestnest to the lava men, Batman's wacky flying device he carried Aquaman with to the ineptness of the Wonder Twin clones this look at the Superfriends was well done. If only the plot didn't get in the way.

Mister Intensity

[Rabi~en~Rose]

you know I really don't like this whole government evil stuff :( I hope it doesnt lead to the justice league of america ending up fighting america :eek:

[Dogbert]

*Heavy-set black lady comment to Bats was too general. She and the rest of her govt. lapdogs MAY NOT know who Bats real identity is? Look at Batman car, Bat-jet or plane and his other gadgets; who wouldn't think that Batman is rich to afford all those gadgets. Bruce reaction was too telling, even for him.She called him rich boy in the same sentence she's warning him to back off. I think it's clear she does know who he is. Still, Batman shouldn't give any indication that she's right, keep 'em guessing as long as possible...

[Stickman]

I'll be honest- I've never seen the BB episode "Heroes". In fact, I've never seen an episode of BB, period.

Still, I liked "Ultimatum". It's not nearly as good as "Fearful Symmetry", but it was still watchable, gave cool action sequences, & an awesome Batman line "Mine are bigger than yours."

[Fone Bone]

It was all right. Parts of the episode were neat but there were quite a few "I wish they had..." moments.

I wish they had Tim Daly voice Bizarro.

I wish they had shown Grodd.

I wish they hadn't redone Heroes.

I wish they had moved the conspricay plot forward from Fearful Symmetry. The only new bit of info was that they know who Batman is. I had never seen that lady or that guy before so I wasn't that invested with the players.

I had thought about the Wonder Twins and Apache Cheif but I guess the entire episode was an homage to the Superfriends.

I liked how they changed the ending from Heroes and actually had Apache Cheif Guy join the League.

It was good to see Giganta again.

Aquaman seemed a little "off" this episode. Maybe because he was a little too chummy with the League. Or maybe because he was sarcastic more than once (a welcome development.)

Superman thinking the Ultimen were "corny" was simultaniously funny, ironic and true.

I kept thinking how creepy it was that Diana was hanging out with Apache Cheif Guy. She seemed a little TOO interested in the kid. Is he even legal? Considering he's only 1, probably not. Stupid Apache Cheif! Stay away from Batman's woman!

I liked this episode but I didn't love it. ***1/2.

[Knight]

The woman who made the 'rich boy' comment reminded me of Condolisa (sp) Rice for some reason...must be that ugly sneer she wears all the time and the speech mannersims...


Oddly enough in the comics I think Amanda Waller served as a cabinet member during Luthor's presidential term.

[JLU Dude]

**** 1/2 of out *****. I thought it was pretty interesting to see a revised version of the SuperFriends. It was also nice seeing Maxwell Lord and Amanda Waller in animated form. Also nice to see Hamiliton, Bizarro, and Giganta again. Enjoyed the glimpse of the new Batplane and can't wait to see if Longshadow does have an adventure with the League.

[Jack Frenzy]

Ah, those two icons of the late Eighties DC universe: Amanda Waller (Boss of the Suicide Squad) and Maxwell Lord (Sponsor of Justice League International) make their DCU debut.

Some changes of course: Max wasn't half as arrogantly Donald Trumpish as in the comics. Can't say I liked the idea of him working for her. They always interacted best when she was the hard-nose law-and-order government bureaucrat and he was the flashy industrialist political "string-puller" she both respected and hated.

[Rabi~en~Rose]

Finally, who is the Terrific Trio?

they were a small group of heroes funded and in a way made by the government in Batman Beyond who got their powers in a "accident" and all ended up going mad and dying sort of like the Ultimen :(

[randomguy]

I enjoyed this.

Granted, it's nothing revolutionary as episodes go, but it provides nice action sequences, some decent character interaction, and best of all, does an excellent job teasing future developments. What makes JLU worth tuning into week after week, despite its debatable quality, is that it at least appears to have direction. The ongoing plot of Season 1 is nicely teased, and the introductions of Amanda Waller and the Suicide Squad are an excellent treat for us comic fans. There's a nice feeling of suspense and intrigue here, and the audience has little clue as to what exactly is going on. I'll admit that Bizarro seems thrown in, and the Ultimen are by no means original, but at least the characterization is sympathetic, and Waller's closing line to Batman is every bit as chilling and surprising as it should be. A solid B from me.


Oddly enough in the comics I think Amanda Waller served as a cabinet member during Luthor's presidential term.
Yup, she was head of the Department of Metahuman Affairs. I don't know what her status in the DCU is now, but presumably she's fallen pretty far from grace since Lex's presidency collapsed.

[Rabi~en~Rose]

oh and speaking of Batmans "mines bigger then yours line" he said that sort of as if he was the JL's leader so can we maybe say that its a possability?

[Knight]

Aquaman seemed a little "off" this episode. Maybe because he was a little too chummy with the League. Or maybe because he was sarcastic more than once (a welcome development.)


A few people have mentioned this. This is really the first time we see Aquaman actually working with the League and not having his own personal agenda and it was a welcomed change to me.

Aquaman doesnt have to be a a$@ hole all the time. These people are his teammates now. There wasnt really a oppurtunity for him to be a jerk this time around. But fear not Aquaman will be more of what some people expect next time he shows up.:D

[The Frog]

I really liked this episode. It was a nice homage to the Superfriends. I think that there was just a little too much focus on the Ultamen, but I did like them for the most part. It would be cool to see Shadow Chaser (I think?) in a later episode. It was cool how the only superheros/villains were in either the Superfriends or the Legion of Doom. Glad to see JLU's welcome return. 4.5 of 5

[susan123]

Although I do see some comparisons to "Heroes" I really enjoyed this episode. The secret government subplot is starting to get interesting. What is Project Cadmeus? Who is the "big fish" behind the Ultimen? An episode that leaves more questions than answers--gotta love that!

Favorite line: "Mine are bigger than yours". :)

[JLfan4life]

well i posted my review of this episode in another thread but i can't find it now....so i'll make it short and sweet. i liked this episode alot. JLU owned Superfriends. this episode made superfriends look like the crap that it was. i give it 4.5 out of 5 stars, and i loved batman's "Mine are bigger than yours" line.

[Knight]

oh and speaking of Batmans "mines bigger then yours line" he said that sort of as if he was the JL's leader so can we maybe say that its a possability?
They are all equals and all teammates. Batman had taken point in the discussion with Waller so naturally they had his back in regards to whatever he had to say. I wouldnt say that instance makes him the leader.

Amanda Waller was beaten in that situationbut she still had the last word.

[randomguy]

Point of interest: in the comics, Project Cadmus created the Superman clone Superboy (also known as Kon-El and Conner Kent), a hyrbid Kryptonian with 50% Superman DNA and 50% Lex Luthor DNA. Makes you wonder...

[Merlin Missy]

This was entertaining. I laughed when I frst saw the "Hall of Justice." The first half was the stronger half; fight scenes for the sake of fight scenes bore me. I like Long Shadow and I hope they give him a good send-off when he dies. Wouldn't mind seeing more of the twins, but really, if I don't it's not that big of a deal. I think I can pick out potential genetic predecessors for everyone but Wind Dragon. It'd be interesting to see how J'onn reacts should he meet Shifter and Downpour.

Never saw "Heroes," so no comparisons there. I'm getting really paranoid about what the gov't has cooked up in terms of other metahumans and such.

Anyway. Fun ep. Nice conspiracy-building. Yay.

MM:)

[Mister Intensity]

I love that theme song.

Mister Intensity

[greg!]

I really think it would be interesting to see this continued. What happens when the new clones take over...Are there then 2 Longshadows? Does the League posess the techknowledgy to cure him? What if they tracked down the others after they found a cure & rescued them, forcing Amanda Waller to bring in the Suiside Squad like another variation of the Injustice Gang with a new agenda to take them out....:eek: Those villians would be fighting for their freedom..Very very interesting & so many ways BT can go with this. I can't wait to see the future.;)

[Red X Unmasked]

After remembering what that lady's name was (Amanda Waller) I remember who she is. I tohught she would've been more "active" in this eppy though.
Here's a bio for her for those who don't know who she is:
http://www.blacksuperhero.com/exhibithtml/exh-dc-awaller.html

[Fone Bone]

I love that theme song.

Mister IntensityAnd the clips weren't spoilery AT ALL tonight.

[SilverKnight]

Hm. Maybe I'm getting cranky in my old age, or maybe I've been reading too much TWoP (http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/) and it's been messing with my normally low standards, but I wasn't overly impressed by this. The animation was above-par, from what I could tell, and I liked the concept, but most of it seemed off.

Let me ask this: why was Batman in this episode again? I mean, I love ol' Batsy as much as the next fangirl, but there was really no reason as to why he needed to show up. He wasn't nearly as strong as the other three, and his detective skills weren't in need of being used, ergo, he could've been easily replaced by almost anyone. (I'm tempted to say Flash, but I won't go there. It's too crowded.)

The new characters were fine enough; I wasn't overly enthralled by them (though Longshadow was actually kinda endearing in that vaguely Launchpad-esque "gee, ya did nearly kill us, but that's okay" kinda way), but they weren't annoying, unlike other established characters such as, say, Hawk, Dove, and B'wana Beast. (Who the hell orginally thought him up, anyway?) They were very corny in their battles, but then, Supes already called them on that (which was a nice moment--even the Boy Scout thinks they're nauseating) so I'm assuming it was intentional. And, in concept, I liked the way they wigged out when they found that they were just born out of a test-tube. I doubt I'd take it well, either. However, whats-his-face deciding to take on the JL just to be remembered, shall we say, rang false. Again, not bad in concept, just executed rather poorly. Oh, and the twins freaked me out, particularly the boy. Mainly because it took me half the episode to really believe he was a boy, and even then I wasn't entirely convinced. Maybe that was the point. Honestly, I'd rather not know.

Furthermore, I'm not a grammar nazi, and far be it for me to critique a big-wig like DeMattis, but what was up with the dialogue? "You're getting sicker"? It bugged me, I'm sorry. "You're getting worse", or "you're sickness is getting worse" or something. As it stands, "you're getting sicker" sounds lame. Like, SuperFriends lame. And "mine is bigger than yours"? From Batman? I mean, if Flash had said those lines, okay, he's a cheeseball, I could live with that, but Batman? Batman?? No. Just no.

Anyway, 2.5 from me. Good animation, good concept, but superfluous Batman and cheeseorific dialogue hurt it. Damn it, I have been reading TWoP too much. >sigh< Ah well. Such jaded goodness is worth the sacrifice. As they say, "Spare the snark, spoil the networks." :evil:

[Simpler Simon]

Aquaman doesnt have to be a a$@ hole all the time. These people are his teammates now. There wasnt really a oppurtunity for him to be a jerk this time around. But fear not Aquaman will be more of what some people expect next time he shows up.:D
I think the creative staff bent the characterizations slightly for the purposes of making them fit the Superfriends homage. It also explains some odd moments (like the big three being kinda chummy as they're going to save that oil rig). It's about as far as these characters can stretch without totally breaking characterization. The Superfriends homage also explains why Giganta and Bizzaro randomly show up in the middle - they were past Superfriends villains.

Already made some comments on this in the Canadian talkback, but yeah I wasn't too fond of this episode. Too much like Heroes, though the continuation of the established subplots and the appearance of Amanada Waller were a treat.

[Ian]

Meh squared. This episode really highlighted the weaknesses of the JLU concept for me--more than any other comic-book adaptation to date, it really is necessary to be familiar with the DCU to truly enjoy JLU. While it was nice to see Waller and Lord--characters which I really enjoy and wish were used more--and to hear references to Cadmus and The Squad, I imagine most of those references went over the head of most viewers. And, without those references? Mediocre.

Also, the episode really highlights the fact that the writers aren't used to serial writing yet. The Ultimen have supposedly been in action for months now, yet we've never seen them? Gee, I'd sure like to know where they were when Mordru attacked Metropolis, or when Ivo's robot returned. Seeing them now and giving them a history just smacks of retcon.

Random comments/complaints:

I was unsatisfied with this episode's roster. Superman and Aquaman were appropiate, but I felt that the episode could have used other heroes besides the over-used Batman and Wonder Woman. How about seeing Booster Gold again, or Rocket Red or the Flash? You can't develop the forty new heroes if you don't use them.

The Super-Friends clones were just low-key enough to work. I do wish we'd been introduced to them earlier, though.

Okay, so Waller is lower-echelon conspirator? Something tells me this conspiracy, if it's unraveled at all, will either end in outer space, with The Patriots (Metal Gear Solid 2), or very ridiculous.

So, anyway, two and a half out of five. Enjoyable only if you're familiar with the DCU.

ETA:
SilverKnight: Hm. Maybe I'm getting cranky in my old age, or maybe I've been reading too much TWoP (http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/) and it's been messing with my normally low standards, but I wasn't overly impressed by this.
It does have that effect on people doesn't it? BTW, my name over there is Ian--I've posted on the JL forum once or twice. You?

[Caswin]

Hm... tough call on this one. Gonna start with the fights: The first was pretty good. Though Superman being held down by a hunk of rock three times or so his size just didn't seem right. That aside, nice. The fight against the Ultimen, though... main problem for me is, what was up with the water guy filling the room with water? I mean, he's dealing with Aquaman. Not like it made it any easier for his sister to fight. Maybe a blizzard or something would've worked better. Eh, either way, more credible than "Form of.. an ICE GIANT!"

OK, fixation on fights quenched. To the actual story. Nice concept, too bad someone beat them to it what, two years ago? Anyway, I like the redone Superfriends. Better than the old versions, at least. Long Shadow, better than Apache Chief in general, particularly with the name :) Whoever the electric guy was... didn't see enough of him to learn much, but the camera thing was cool, I'll give him that. No comment on Tornado, all I can say is he beats Samurai. I really like what they've done with the Wonder Twins, though. They actually look cool now. Reminiscent of an bit-player alien on Teen Titans who I'm something of a fan of. The transformations were nice, too, what with the all-white look, water sphere, etc. And... no Gleek. Whee!

I'm liking the "conspiracy" thing. "Mine are bigger than yours", "Rich boy"... great lines. And I can hear The Question in the Watchtower from down here... "SQUEEEEE!"

[William C. Maune]

I wonder if they were trying to make some of the league members a little more like their Superfriends incarnations for this episode and perhaps that is why some of the characters seemed a little off.

[TnAdct1]

Let me ask this: why was Batman in this episode again? I mean, I love ol' Batsy as much as the next fangirl, but there was really no reason as to why he needed to show up. He wasn't nearly as strong as the other three, and his detective skills weren't in need of being used, ergo, he could've been easily replaced by almost anyone. (I'm tempted to say Flash, but I won't go there. It's too crowded.) One good reason for Batman's appearence in this episode: Considering how this episode is an homage to Superfriends, it's appropriate that the Justice League members invovled in this episode were the original members of the Superfriends (sans Robin and the "Wendy and Marvin" Teen Titans).

[Style]

Tonight, I got to debut the awesome might of my new DVD recorder. Used in conjunction with my satellite feed, I now have an absolutely perfect and completely gorgeous recording of Ultimateum. It makes me cry tears of joy to see a recording so good. :D

On the other hand, I think I might have prefferred a new Teen Titans to debut my machine than this particular episode. It's just... I don't know. I don't know how I feel about the episode. It left me strangely disquieted. Not in the way it should have, what with the government plot or whatever.

It's this homage to Superfriends. I don't know what they meant by it, and how one should feel. I love Challenge of the Superfriends dearly. But, these characters, are written almost inconsistently. One moment they are chummy, the next they're pompous, then earnest, then greedy money-grubbing media whores. What was Mcduffie trying to say about Superfriends? That it was just crass commercialism? JLU can't level that charge, because it could be levelled right back, and JLU wouldn't have the easiest time defending itself. Are they saying the pure, unconflicted heroism of the Superfriends, rather than being admired, should be suspect? Why? Can no one ever do good for the sake of doing good? I just don't know why they are trying to tear these characters down. It acuses those classic characters of something they are innocent of.

At least Apache Chief was honestly trying to be a do gooder. He was easily the most interesting of invented heroes for the series. I'm pretty sure he was the only one really given a back story at the time.
Action was pretty good. The Government plot is spinning it's wheels. I hope next time it's brought up, they actually further it.

Oh, and Batman's comment to the rather masculine government lady is pretty clearly anatomical in nature. They should have had her respond "I wouldn't be so sure..."

[Doomsday]

Overall it was a good episode. I already seen this episode when it aired in Canada so it wasn't that new to me, besides it being in ws. This is pretty much Heros done right, and those people who think Heros is better, go rewatch that episode and you probbley will change your mind. Some heros were off character in this episode, mainly Aquaman, but it worked for the episode. People that are mad that certain people were out of character, In Wake the Dead, Timm and the gang did a great job at nailing all the characters perfectly. I loved the end. I can't wait to see where this arc is going. Also I like that they make the Wonder Twins enjoyable to watch. 4.5 stars for doing a great job as a homage to The Superfriends.

[SilverKnight]

Oh, and Batman's comment to the rather masculine government lady is pretty clearly anatomical in nature....

...Aaagh. I thought the line was just lame, but when put in that light...

Ugh. I need to go wash my brain out with soap, now.

[Conekiller]

I havn't had that much fun watching Justice League since Wild Cards. It wasn't the best ep, but it had alot of positive stuff in there, and nice homages.


I noted the Aquaman personality as well, but merely passed it off with "he's with the league now, maybe he knows them better now". The one that really got me was WonderWoman. She was openly flirting with Longshadow the whole time. Kinda came off as....a wee bit tramp-ish. I don't lik eseeing WW like that.

Between the strong similarities to Heroes, some of the city over-views and the (really frickin cool) design of the Ultimen , I really felt like I was watching aBatman Beyond episode here.

Here's hoping we see more of Longshadow and an "evil" version of the Ultimen (once the current ones die out) to face the Leauge.

B+

[Doomsday]

Tonight, I got to debut the awesome might of my new DVD recorder. Used in conjunction with my satellite feed, I now have an absolutely perfect and completely gorgeous recording of Ultimateum. It makes me cry tears of joy to see a recording so good. :D

On the other hand, I think I might have prefferred a new Teen Titans to debut my machine than this particular episode. It's just... I don't know. I don't know how I feel about the episode. It left me strangely disquieted. Not in the way it should have, what with the government plot or whatever.

It's this homage to Superfriends. I don't know what they meant by it, and how one should feel. I love Challenge of the Superfriends dearly. But, these characters, are written almost inconsistently. One moment they are chummy, the next they're pompous, then earnest, then greedy money-grubbing media whores. What was Mcduffie trying to say about Superfriends? That it was just crass commercialism? JLU can't level that charge, because it could be levelled right back, and JLU wouldn't have the easiest time defending itself. Are they saying the pure, unconflicted heroism of the Superfriends, rather than being admired, should be suspect? Why? Can no one ever do good for the sake of doing good? I just don't know why they are trying to tear these characters down. It acuses those classic characters of something they are innocent of.

At least Apache Chief was honestly trying to be a do gooder. He was easily the most interesting of invented heroes for the series. I'm pretty sure he was the only one really given a back story at the time.
Action was pretty good. The Government plot is spinning it's wheels. I hope next time it's brought up, they actually further it.

Oh, and Batman's comment to the rather masculine government lady is pretty clearly anatomical in nature. They should have had her respond "I wouldn't be so sure..."

LOL I got to debut for the first time my new DVD recorder on this episode too. That's sort of funny I guess. :D

[Lachesis]

I liked this episode better when it was about the Terrific Trio. "Heroes" was a good episode. This is just average, or even sub-average. I mean plot point for plot point I can't really tell the difference between the episodes. Except that this episode is attempting to start a continuity that will be explored later.

I hope the story they are trying to tell, the overall arc, is worth plowing through these mediocre episodes in the process.

I found "Heroes" terrifically ham-handed and underwritten. "Ultimatum" at least adds a few more layers: the government conspiracy, the obvious parody elements - and the Ultramen are cornballs, but they at least have the excuse of being wet behind the ears. :p

[vulcanrush]

And "mine is bigger than yours"? From Batman? I mean, if Flash had said those lines, okay, he's a cheeseball, I could live with that, but Batman? Batman?? No. Just no.
yes. just yes.

i thought that line was perfectly in-character, silverknight. and the delivery made it that much better.


Oh, and Batman's comment to the rather masculine government lady is pretty clearly anatomical in nature. They should have had her respond "I wouldn't be so sure..."
uh, no. it WASN'T anatomical in nature.

it was a metaphor. unless there's something about amanda waller that i don't know about :D -- she shouldn't have any, small or big.

[vulcanrush]

I I noted the Aquaman personality as well, but merely passed it off with "he's with the league now, maybe he knows them better now". The one that really got me was WonderWoman. She was openly flirting with Longshadow the whole time. Kinda came off as....a wee bit tramp-ish. I don't lik eseeing WW like that.
B+
well, there it is.

every thread, there's a post that makes ZERO sense.

i don't know whether to laugh or shake my head.

what the heck are you talking about?? think before you post.

tramp-ish?? how??

openly flirting? talk about reading too much into things.

the whole ww-longshadow dynamic was a hero-admirer or mentor-student relationship.

name one instance of "openly flirting". you can't.

i saw no open flirting, and i doubt ANYBODY did, except you.

some people just see things they wanna see, i guess.

[BlackoutCreature]

Well this wasnt a great episode, but it did have some flashes of brilliance in it. I liked Wonder Woman's friendship with Apache Chief (or whatever they were calling him). It not only gave Apache some good character development, but also Wonder Woman. I hope we see him again before his assumed death. I also like them continuing this "government conspiracy" sub-plot. Other then that though the episode didnt really engage me.

The Superfriends homages and deliberately corny banter and dialogue got really old really fast. I was hoping the JL writers had gotten that out of there system after butchering "Injustice for All" with it. Also Superman not appreciating the "cornball" dialogue seemed out of place as thats almost exactly like he sounded in season one. The appearances of Bizarro and Giganta were total wastes of both characters. Aquaman was just Aquaman. I still dont know why there was such an outcry among fans to get him into the league full-time. Also the Ultimen's sudden desire for vengeance and destruction just didnt make sense. I know they were stressed over the situation, but that kind of 180 came out of nowhere and didnt seem to fit. And im not buying the "genetic breakdown caused them to go insane" explanation, as Apache Chief had no trouble keeping himself under control. Atleast in "Heroes" they all went nuts.

In the end ill be generous and give it 2 stars, an extra 1/2 star for not forcing in twenty other B/C/D/.../Q-list League members.

[Conekiller]

what the heck are you talking about?? think before you post.

tramp-ish?? how??

openly flirting? talk about reading too much into things.

the whole ww-longshadow dynamic was a hero-admirer or mentor-student relationship.

name one instance of "openly flirting". you can't.

i saw no open flirting, and i doubt ANYBODY did, except you.

some people just see things they wanna see, i guess.chill out, geez.

Yes, from Longshadow's angle it was hero admiration. I just got an akward vibe from WW the whole time she was around longshadow, is all,a dn it struck me as out of character. tramp-ish may be a bit harsh, but I just couldn't think of a word that fit the situation when I was typing.

and regarding openly firting, since you asked: (off the top of my head): the sitting under the tree seemed like a very "boyfriend/girlfriend" scene to me.

[Black Arc]

vulcanrush, calm done man, you don't have to insult the guy just because he saw something you didn't see, even though I didn't see it either.

I liked this episode, they made the Superfriends rejects into actual superheros. Plus the conspiracy arc was continued, which is good.

[Rebis]

The one that really got me was WonderWoman. She was openly flirting with Longshadow the whole time. Kinda came off as....a wee bit tramp-ish. I don't lik eseeing WW like that.Yikes. She's a tramp simply because she finds Longshadow attractive? This is tricky terrain, my friend. A bit of a jump to apply such a label to WW for merely being human. It wouldn't be because she's a woman, now would it? After all, Bruce Wayne has macked on a long list of ladies (in less subtle ways, I might add), and we don't automatically question his morality. Flash's libido seems to be limitless, and we laugh off his shenanigans as understandable, albeit a bit immature.

Longshadow seems like pretty datable material to me. I'd have asked him out too. I mean, did you see those pecs?

[William C. Maune]

I don't think Conekiller's point had anything to do specifically with WW being a Woman.

Not that I really saw much between WW and Longshadow either besides Longshadow's admiration, but I don't see why folks are jumping on Conekiller.

[Conekiller]

Yikes. She's a tramp simply because she finds Longshadow attractive? This is tricky terrain, my friend. A bit of a jump to apply such a label to WW for merely being human. It wouldn't be because she's a woman, now is it? After all, Bruce Wayne has macked on a long list of ladies (in less subtle ways, I might add), and we don't automatically question his morality. Flash's libido seems to be limitless, and we laugh off his shenanigans as understandable, albeit a bit immature.

Longshadow seems like pretty datable material to me. I'd have asked him out too. I mean, did you see those pecs?(I'm being attacked! people notice me!!!:D )

as I said in my first rebuttal, Tramp-ish is to harsh of a word. But Since the show has been strongly hinting at a WW/Bats relationship, I found her chumming up to Longshadow a bit...off. I just could't think of a more appropriate word at the time

(note to self: being negative and saying un-popular things will get people to respond to you)

on a totally unrelated note: I really liked how Juice sounded. just like someone who has electricity coarcing thru his body!

[Vixen]

Here's my breakdown of the episode:



-Good to see Aquaman again.

-The introduction of the Ultimen-as Supes put it-was rather corny. To be honest, I really didn't feel any sympathy for their plight. It was like this story was a "been there, done that" type of story. Also, I had enough of the Superfriends when I was a kid, & I really didn't need to "revisit" them more than 25 yrs later.:yawn:

-I guess Supes doesn't like to be called "old". Who does?

-Was Wonder Woman leading LongShadow on?:eek: That ain't a healthy thing to do. And why was she so snippy w/Bats? Was it b/c she was so worried about LongShadow's "potential"?

-LongShadow was too much of a lovesick kid to me; I'm all for romance in the right context...but he was really starting to get on my nerves.

-What the heck is wrong w/Juice's voice? And why did Downpour have to sound exactly like his sister? I know the same VA did both characters, but they could have found a way to deepen his voice.

-What was that thing that Bats was flying in on? That was an idea that should have been left on the drawing board.

-Supes almost losing to Wind Dragon didn't make any sense. I guess this is the further dumbing down of his powers.

-Amanda Waller is one tough cookie. When I heard about her character, I envisioned her to have a tight bun on her head, to match her personality. Why must all Black women have short hair on these cartoons?

-"Mine are bigger than yours"-hilarious. But Amanda Waller isn't easily intimidated, as she hinted that she knew exactly who he is.

-Why was LongShadow invited into the League? Since he doesn't have long to live, will his clone become a part of the group as well?:rolleyes: Adding him to the League just seemed to me to be very unneccessary.

My score: **1/2/*****

[Batman49]

The homage to Superfriends was well done. I enjoyed this episode. I also like how the conspiracy thread is going. Amanda Waller's comment surprised me. I gave this 4 stars. Next week, the return of The Atom and Warren Ellis' writing debut in the DCAU. It should be great.

[Rebis]

I don't think Conekiller's point had anything to do specifically with WW being a Woman.(Hey Conekiller, I'm totally *not* savaging you. Friendly conversation, I promise.:) )

I'm not sure I'm with you on this, WCM. With all due respect to Conekiller, who no doubt is a cool kid, I'm not keen on viewing healthy expressions of desire in negative terms. We tend *not* to think less of male characters when they go a-horndoggin' ... for instance, it doesn't strike anyone as odd that Booster Gold flagrantly flirts with Tracy in "The Greatest Story Never Told" or that Green Arrow checks out Black Canary's legs in "Initiation." It would be bizarre to suggest that Booster or GA were acting "trampish." But some of us wrinkle our noses at WW's initiative in pursuing Longshadow, and I wonder why. The gender double-standard may not be apparent on the surface, but that doesn't mean that it's not there.

I think it's good to call out this stuff when it pops up, because we all resort to assumptions about gender without realizing it. I totally do it too. It just may not be the fairest way of thinking about how men and women should (or do) behave.

[Rebis]

(I'm being attacked! people notice me!!!:D )LOL, I am so not attacking you! :p We all come here to discuss and have a good time, and I know that's what's going on. I mean, it's Saturday night and I'm sitting here in my boxer shorts with a glass of wine and I'm having a ball! Don't ever feel bad about expressing your honest opinion. People may not agree with you, but I'll tell you, I get really bored when there's nothing juicy to talk about!;)

[Sue]

This was fun. It's always nice to see Aquaman, and Maxwell Lord and Amanda Waller were pleasent suprises. I liked how the Ultimen were an updated take on the Superfriends, though I'm indifferent towards them making another appearance. I found it cute how Longshadow was befriended by Wonderwoman (and I didn't see anything creepy in that, but that's just me :D ) Someone mentioned the goverment having info. on the League. It's not suprising since Gen. Hardcastle mentioned that files exist on every member. (Speaking of Fearful Symmetry flashbacks, perhaps Maxwwll Lord was who Hamilton was speaking with on the phone in that episode.) I'd like to see where this conspiracy thing is going.

[Sevenfeet]

This was truly an episode for all of us fanboys who spent far too much of their youth watching the Superfriends. For a second, I almost thought they'd work in a "Ted Knight" style narrator or starburst scene interstials. Nahhh, I must be daydreaming...

Anyway, the episode wasn't the greatest but it wasn't horrible. I thought it was great to give Superman the line about the corny dialogue...my how far the Blue Boy Scout has come. The choice of which "Superfriends" to retconn was good in general. I spotted the Wonder Twins in a nanosecond and wasn't disappointed. At least they killed the "Wonder Twin Powers....activate!" line and ditched the space monkey.

One thing about the 70s was a tendency of making multicultural heroes with names that wore that difference on their sleeve, so to speak. So we get names like Black Vulcan, Apache Chief, etc. The new names as a whole are far better...definetely more up-to-date. And the faux-"Hall of Justice" reference was a good place to chuckle. I almost expected to hear the Troubalert. :D

For those who say that Aquaman was a little too chummy with the rest of the JLU, keep in mind that we've been aluded to for some time that he was going to join the group (way back in JL even) and one of his first dialog moments was a muttering under his breath about the oil drillers intruding on his kingdom. Some things never change.

I saw Longshadow's behavior with Wonder Woman part crush, part reverence. Nothing more. I mean, didn't all of us have a hot teacher at some point in our lives?

Juice's character was the most disappointing. I guess 30 minutes isn't enough time to completely flesh out characterization but I felt I didn't know anything about this guy other than the suit. And when he went toe to toe with Batman, you knew he wasn't going to last five minutes (and didn't). It would appear that his sole job was to use the line "Ol' chum" as a reference to the old 60's and 70's Batman characters who did the same thing...which got Kevin Conroy a good line at the end of the battle.

And speaking of Conroy, he still rules and the writers know this since he gets all the great lines. Only he could have pulled off the bit between him and Amanda Waller, although she took him down a notch by revealing that she knew who he was. Come to think of it, after all that Batman's done in his career, how could the government NOT know who this guy is? I mean, please!

[Red]

Wow....I loved Superfriends, and this was a real treat to me. I LOVED Apache Chief...and hes in the Justice League, I NEVER thought that would ever happen. I'm sorry, but just for that, *****, not the best of the bunch, but quite good for a SF freak.

[Maxie Zeus]

Well, what a charming little tea party that turned out to be.

I don't know when I last spent time with such lovely people. The Ultimen? Vapid jerks. The government agents? Loathsome jerks. Batman, Aquaman and the rest of the Justice League? Bloody, dribbling anuses. This "conspiracy arc" is really bringing out the best in everyone, isn't it?

Well, I suppose the Justice Lords weren't Emily Post's idea of good guests either, and "Heroes" had bitter, satirical fun at the expense of the "superhero" idea. But these were "might have been" or "shouldn't have been" stories: cautionary lessons that made the "real" heroes look good by contrast.

"Fearful Symmetries" and "Ultimatum," on the other hand, are vast, broken-backed tankers gushing poison directly into the continuity. No one comes out of them looking good: not previously decent folks like Dr. Hamilton; not the ridiculed-as-gullible Green Arrow or the exploited Supergirl and Ultimen; not the sneering, condescending Batman or Aquaman. As for the Question: If I were a government official bent on destroying the Justice League, I could hardly do better than to insinuate a madman within it, so as to sow suspicion, mistrust and paranoia within their ranks.

Of course, I don't know where this whole arc is going. But based on what I've seen of the JLU's attitudes, if I were a citizen of that planet I'd not be happy at the thought that these superpowered jerkwads-and-busybodies had set up their little club on my world. I don't want a supervillain messing with my life; but neither do I want a superhero arrogantly bossing me around. (Hey, sea-king: go give yourself a long, hot, saltwater enema.) And after watching the government--or whoever it is--trying to fight superhero fire with superhero fire, I'd probably conclude that superpowered people are the cause of more trouble than they prevent. So they simply shouldn't be kept around, in any way, shape or form.

And that's exactly the thought we want a superhero action show to concluding with, isn't it? Isn't it? (http://www.pixar.com/theater/trailers/incredibles/index.html)

Well, I don't know. Not yet, anyway. Maybe they'll twist it around smartly. But I've already gone out and bought me a carving knife. Because I'm beginning to darkly suspect that I've got a fat turkey on my hands here.

[Sevenfeet]

-Amanda Waller is one tough cookie. When I heard about her character, I envisioned her to have a tight bun on her head, to match her personality. Why must all Black women have short hair on these cartoons?

Simple. Because it's realistic. Being an African-American male, I have a little experience in this. Most black hair is naturally kinky, curly or frizzy. Straightening it takes a lot of work and chemicals which after a while, most black women who work for a living will only do so much to maintain. The chemicals also damage the hair, which makes growing it long difficult and downright impossible for some. Some women use hair extensions to solve this problem. But the older you get, the more likely black women may go for shorter hairstyles that can be easily managed (come to think of it, this is typical of many women in the United States, not just black).

Bottom line...how many black women do you see with hair like Wonder Woman? Not many. It's a major PITA to grow and maintain.

[Revelator]

This is the third episode scripted by J.M. DeMatteis from someone else's story (in this case Dwayne McDuffie's), and like his other two scripts this one's flawed. Wind Dragon's sudden antagonism toward the league was contrived, and his equally sudden surrender was more so.

'Heroes' satirized the Fantastic Four; 'Ultimatum' satirized the lamest of the superfriends ("classic characters" my foot, though if one thinks that it must be easy falling prey to the delusion that Titans has better characterization than JL/JLU). But whereas the BB episode was mostly straight satire, JLU cared more about the heroes lampooned, and it's the better episode. People knocking this episode for doing what "Heroes" did first are missing the [edited] obvious point that Ultimatum did all that in a far more compelling way. (I remember how badly "Heroes" got pilloried when it came out--to see it now acclaimed as a good episode is bitterly funny.)

The episode was obviously thought up first as a Superfriends homage, and these characters are several million times more interesting than the Superfriends characters. Unfortunately the writers seemed less interested in them than they should. Longshadow stood out but the others were less utilized. "Juice," despite having a neat name and electronic rasp for a voice, was pretty much wasted, and Wind Dragon behaved over-erratically. And I felt uncomfortable seeing the League just stand around as the other Ultimen got carted away by government thugs.

Beyond that, the episode recreates the Superfriends feel by placing the SF parodies alongside the most remembered Sf Big Four characters, which explains Batman's presence. Satirically, the episode posits that if the superfriends characters were existing in the cynical DCAU world, they'd probably be co-opted into being corporate cash-cows, as in opposition to the stand-offish, aloof JLU. The crew is saying that "the pure, unconflicted heroism of the Superfriends" is ultimately too simplistically pure to not be suspect in the conflicted world of the DCAU.

I originally saw this episode shortly after it aired up north, and wrote in the first talkback that it seemed to satirize the current presidential administration of this country. Waller may be from the comics, but introducing an African-American hard-nosed goverment high-up who clamps down on people in the name of "national security" seems overly reminiscent of Condoleeza Rice. And when Wind Dragon said, "As the man said, you're either with us or against us," he seemed to echo the words of our current chief executive. Anyway, if the JLU ends up violently clashing with the government, they'll have my full support.

Now don't get me started on Dr. Flask and his gaydar...

Edit by Bird Boy: Watch the language.

[Revelator]

[QUOTED: Maxie Zeus]

I don't know when I last spent time with such lovely people. The Ultimen? Vapid jerks. The government agents? Loathsome jerks. Batman, Aquaman and the rest of the Justice League? Bloody, dribbling anuses.

You're being over-simplistic. Longshadow came off as a pretty decent and compassionate chap with clear sense of ethics and Wonder Woman was supportive, merciful and in overall good form.
On the other hand, your other points are all quite valid.

But I've already gone out and bought me a carving knife. Because I'm beginning to darkly suspect that I've got a fat turkey on my hands here.

I'm not quite sure what you're implying. You mean the goverment/JLU plot will be a bust?

[Vixen]

Simple. Because it's realistic. Being an African-American male, I have a little experience in this. Most black hair is naturally kinky, curly or frizzy. Straightening it takes a lot of work and chemicals which after a while, most black women who work for a living will only do so much to maintain. The chemicals also damage the hair, which makes growing it long difficult and downright impossible for some. Some women use hair extensions to solve this problem. But the older you get, the more likely black women may go for shorter hairstyles that can be easily managed (come to think of it, this is typical of many women in the United States, not just black).

Bottom line...how many black women do you see with hair like Wonder Woman? Not many. It's a major PITA to grow and maintain.Thanks for the info:rolleyes: , but I'm an African-American woman. And all women of color having short hair is NOT realistic. My hair isn't cut that short, & it isn't that hard to maintain. Yes, I'm pushing mid-30s, so I don't expect to have my hair the same length it was when I was 10 yrs old. And no, I don't expect Black women to have the same length of hair as Wonder Woman...but how come they can't show a Black woman who has a short bob (such as myself) or even shoulder-length hair? All of the women that I've seen in recent years on these cartoons (Max, Kathy Duquesne, Vixen,& Amanda Waller) all have short hair. This isn't a major beef, but I was asking a rhetorical question. Only the creators & artists can answer that one.

P.S. I just saw a pic of Amanda Waller from the comics. Didn't she have a bun in her hair? THAT'S the point I'm making. Why didn't she have the same look for the cartoon?

[William C. Maune]

I think it's good to call out this stuff when it pops up, because we all resort to assumptions about gender without realizing it. I totally do it too. It just may not be the fairest way of thinking about how men and women should (or do) behave.

However, Conekiller could think it equally bad when men act in that manner. While I don't like gender assumptions either, I don't think we should assume someone has a gender assumption either.

[Beat]

This episode wasn't about flirting. It was about atonment (at least to me) 25 years after nearly destroying the American animation industry, the Wonder Twins are beaten sensless by a reformed Aquaman who's powers and fighting skills now extend beyond talking to fish.

[Style]

("classic characters" my foot, though if one thinks that it must be easy falling prey to the delusion that Titans has better characterization than JL/JLU).
Maybe you were trying to be nice, but next time you take a dig at me, please at least call me by name when doing so. I always extend you the same curtesy.

[William C. Maune]

Well, I don't know. Not yet, anyway. Maybe they'll twist it around smartly. But I've already gone out and bought me a carving knife. Because I'm beginning to darkly suspect that I've got a fat turkey on my hands here.

On the other hand, perhaps the fact that they were able to bring about that kind of reaction from you is an indication that they are up to something rather interesting. From the way you wrote your post I get the feeling you don't exactly dislike these episodes (as I've seen you be a lot more harsh), instead you seem more surprised at the direction things are being pushed. It will be interesting to see how all this develops.

Personally, it was hard for me to get a really good gauge on this episode because the Superfriends stylings and homages didn't exactly fit in smoothly with the overall ongoing plot. I'd have been interested to see how this episode would have played out and how the characters would have been portrayed if it had been a non-Superfriends influenced episode. That being said, I did get a kick out of the Sf references and Longshadow was cool. I liked the Question/Green Arrow/Supergirl episode better though.

[JackKnight]

I rather enjoyed this episode. I liked seeing Aquaman kicking some arse and showing off his strength rather than just the fish talking. I'm a big fan of the old Ostrander Suicide Squad, so I dug seeing "the Wall" in this one. Anyway, I had a lot of fun watching tonight, and I hope Longshadow stays around, he was pretty cool. It's amazing to compare the usage of powers in Superfriends to Justice League. They made all the Ultimen characters who were just jokes in the Superfriends into pretty scary threats, powers-wise. Progress is fun.

I can't wait till the next episode, looks like actual close up screen time for Vigilante, Shining Knight and Vixen.
I'm psyched. :)

[Revelator]

Maybe you were trying to be nice, but next time you take a dig at me, please at least call me by name when doing so. I always extend you the same curtesy. Why? You know who you are. I hope you're not worried your name's not being bandied about enough. Anyway, I'm referring to anyone who might have the such an opinion, not just yourself. Lastly, you can refer to me anyway you like if that's an issue.

[Metallo]

I gave this episode *** (out of ****). Not a bad one, just not Earth shattering. I personally liked the homage to the old Superfriends characters, especially Longshadow as Apache Chief and the revamped Wonder Twins (who actually seemed useful and with a bit more edge). I too would like to see Longshadow again in a future episode.

Amanda Waller and Maxwell Lord were some nice additions to this episode as well, in addition to the continuing involvement of Dr. Hamilton. I cannot wait to see where this conspiracy goes.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

SUPERFRIENDS!!! And the HQ. Awesome!

Kinda ended strange though.

Long Shadow is a great name for Appache Chief.

[sKorpia]

Well, seeing as I was openly ridiculing this episode until Batman's "Mine are bigger than yours" statement, it's clear that I didn't enjoy this.

Having never watched Superfriends, the fact that this was a "homage" by-passed me except for the Wonder Twins. And, even though they looked like Elves out of Tolkien in sci-fi suits, they were still lame. With the exception of Long Shadow, I found none of the Ultimen endearing. I can excuse their drop-off-the-hat reversals and selfish greed by remembering that they're only teenagers but that doesn't mean I like them or feel badly for them when they act and react in such illogical ways.

On Waller's hair, it's been my observation that, as women get older, their hairstyles get shorter. I've heard from co-workers and such that it's because a short hairstyle is easier to maintain than a long one. This trend crosses all ethnicities.

Since I'm minimally involved with the comic universe, the introduction of Waller and Max What'shisname had virtually no effect on me. I'm beginning to understand how people not involved with the universe in some way can't enjoy the show or how certain characters who are supposed to invoke a type of response cannot because the response is based on "insider knowledge". All I saw was hard-nosed government agent and bumbling business man who may or may not know what he's gotten into.

I think I've been spoiled by TT and anime, but I saw nothing special in the fights. What I saw reminded me of Keaton's Batman fighting style. Punch, dead time, punch, dead time, punch, dead time, etc. Nothing made me go, "Wow, what power! How cool!" Instead I was flinching, with thoughts of "Wow, that was a violent and poorly-timed fight sequence." I wonder if different camera angles and some tight close-ups would help.

As for the WW/Long Shadow thing, I also got the uncomfortable feeling that she was taking too much of an interest in him. I think this springs from the fact that we so rarely see WW acting nice. Most of the time, she's in full-on "I'mma kick yo ass" mode. The times I remember her acting something other than that has been when she acts coy around Batman. And she was confused most of the time around Princess Audrey. So when you have a woman who acts fairly differently from her normal portrayal and when that behavior is displayed in the company of a male, it's easy to see how thoughts might jump to . . . some form of watered-down flirting. It especially doesn't help when they portray the two of them together alone. And she invites him to patrol with her. (In Whedonverse, that's a date right there for Buffy Summers.) Nor does it help that WW seems to be the only member of the League who has faith in the Ultimen, "especially Long Shadow" as she says in the round table. After all, how does she know unless she's had the time and contact to form a favorable impression of the youth? It may not be what the writers intended, but the idea that WW has formed a potentially non-platonic attachment to the young man is very possible with the lines and situations given.

If JLU is meant to be a dramatic show, I think it may be suffering from its 1/2 hour time limit. I never thought I'd be saying that but I just realized today that I can't recall a TV drama series that isn't an hour long whereas all the comedic sitcoms are 1/2 hours. If anyone can think of one, I'd like to hear of it.

[Crimson]

I liked the episode; very much so on the surface, but dig a little deeper and I'm not crazy about where the series is heading.

What I liked:

I liked that the episode featured the Big Four. I have no interest in most of the 3rd rate characters JLU has been scraping up, so it's nice to see an episode with just the big names. I'm not a huge Aquaman fan, and would not want to see him on a regular basis, but it's nice to see him in occasional guest appearances. I continue to appreciate the strong focus that Wonder Woman has been given this season.

I liked the Ultimen. Not quite heroes, and not quite villains, they made interesting opponents for the League. That they were clear homages to the often mocked characters from Superfriends was an added bonus.

I liked the brief appearance of Giganta and Bizarro.

The animation was solid, and the action was quite good.

What I didn't like:

From the minute the indication of a government conspiracy first reared its ugly head, my eye rolling went into overdrive. The Government conspiracy card has been played too often by far too many movies and TV series; it's predictable and it's tired. I had hoped that the Question would be exposed as just a plain old loon, and that no conspiracy existed, but apparently not. ::sigh::

Regardless, "Ultimatum" more than satisfied my basic requirements for a superhero adventure; I enjoyed watching it, and I have a desire to see it again. It ranks below FTMWHE and "The Return" but significantly above all other eps of JLU to date.

[amygdala]

i liked the episode as another rung in the ladder that was started with "fearful symmetry." nice costumes for the ultimen. the line from waller about "rich boy" struck me as kind of obvious. most people should be able to figure out that bruce wayne is batman. after all:

batman has the batwing, batmobile, batarangs, costume and utility belt. all cost money.

how many multimillionaires/billionaires are there? how many live in gotham city? for starters, we can eliminate some people from the list:

lex luthor? wrong city.
larry ellison? wrong city, has a goatee.
warren buffet? too old.
bill gates? too nerdy.
richard branson? british. has goatee. wrong city.
oliver queen? goatee. wrong city.
tony stark? moustache. wrong universe.
donald trump? possibly...

[Frank White]

Couple observations

1. Looks like the big 7 concept is back. When they were meeting in the Watchtower they were at a table with 7 chairs, so I guess we can assume the the original JL plus Aquaman are the "senior members"

2. I have to agree with sKorpia on the WW thing, she can be quite b***** when Batmans not around, so for her to act nice to some random person was a little odd.

3. Why did the Ultimen leave with the feds? Didn't they know they were just going to die and be replaced? I would have took my chances with the League

4. I thought it was quite cool at the end when Long Shadow was taken to the Watchtower. The score was on point and it seemed like coming to the home and the gods. By the way can we get some screenshots?

5. What was up Superman's butt during this ep?

6. How the hell did Bizarro get off his planet?

7. What is WW strength level? She was taking Bizarro's hits a little too well.

Overall I really liked the ep, I give it 4/5 stars.

[Temple Fugate]

I've said most everything about this ep in the YTV spoilers thread, so just some random small stuff...

"Old chum." / The Britney Spears line needs to go. Immediately. / I love all the Aquaman jokes ("Do they look like fish to you?" "King of the Seas, remember?") / "And that's just domestic"-->doe eyes from Downpour. / Waller being totally kick-ass in her DCAU debut.

The fullscreen pandering in this episode drove me almost as nuts as the Joker's clock from "Wild Cards." The title-safe captions on VOX news, and especially the final group shot where the Classic Four neatly arrange themselves on the left of the screen ("Welcome to the Justice League."), and Superman does a completely unmotivated sidestep to get behind the others...it just frustrates me every time I see it. I know CN is bogging the creative team down on the whole WS/FS thing, but sometimes you just HAVE to frame something to work in widescreen regardless of whether it works in fullscreen. But this is just me being the *****y film major that I am. :shrug:

Justice League 3x09: "Ultimatum" - ***1/2

I would rather have seen Manitou Raven than "Long Shadow." (Though it would obviously have been a different kind of episode.) And I'll say it again: "Juice?" Ugh. Supervolt. Please.

[Mister Intensity]

And the clips weren't spoilery AT ALL tonight.
I was talking about the Ultimen theme song, heard on the communicators and some of the action scenes.

Mister Intensity

[spidl]

I really like this episode. When you grow up on the Superfriends this episode really hits home. Revelator, makes a great point about the Hereos comparision.

I think this episode was more of a parody of the animation industry in the 70s and 80s. The stilted dialogue, characters created specifically for the show without much back story or development, and changes to the comic book history just to cash in. When Superman says "corny" he's not just talking about the speach, but the dialogue writers were forced to create due to restrictions. Its not surprising Long Shadow is the character who is developed the most since Apache Chief seems to be the only character to have a lasting effect.

I think Aquaman's characterization was spot on. They have building him from the lone "Sea King" to team reluctant team member from the Superman episodes. The events of Starcrossed may have been the last straw for him joining the JL.

[Sevenfeet]

Thanks for the info:rolleyes: , but I'm an African-American woman. And all women of color having short hair is NOT realistic. My hair isn't cut that short, & it isn't that hard to maintain. Yes, I'm pushing mid-30s, so I don't expect to have my hair the same length it was when I was 10 yrs old. And no, I don't expect Black women to have the same length of hair as Wonder Woman...but how come they can't show a Black woman who has a short bob (such as myself) or even shoulder-length hair? All of the women that I've seen in recent years on these cartoons (Max, Kathy Duquesne, Vixen,& Amanda Waller) all have short hair. This isn't a major beef, but I was asking a rhetorical question. Only the creators & artists can answer that one.

P.S. I just saw a pic of Amanda Waller from the comics. Didn't she have a bun in her hair? THAT'S the point I'm making. Why didn't she have the same look for the cartoon?
Point taken Sistah Girl. :anime: It's nearly impossible to determine ethnicities in these forums (FYI, I'm a 39 year old brother that grew up on the Superfriends).

[Lord Sidious]

Great Episode!!!

Only flaw is why does Bruce Timm and co. let everyone punking the legendary Superman??

He could have stopped Wind Dragon and still have the same effect making the Dargon regret what he was doing at the end. But no, Supes got punked again.

As for WW's power level, she is second in strength only to Superman so she could hold her own against a dumb Bizzaro.

[Y2Bogus]

When Max Lord said that the Ultimen would be made very comfortable for their remaining days, am I the only one who thinks they were disected the same day?

[Phantasm]

Great!Just when I started to like Wonder Woman again, there springs up a possibility that she is acting nice only to impress Batman!:rolleyes:
Why can't being nice be inherent in her character?!Why do they have to butcher her character just so she can hook up with Bats?!I mean...I never thought of Wonder Woman as bitcy...but that is how she is while not in Batman's presence...:sad:

[creativerealms]

Good episode leave it to Timm and crew to take lame member's of the superfriends and make them interesting and worsth watching. My main problem is Bazairo. There were many other villians they could have used using the B man is a continuty mistake (Shouldn't he still be on his own planet) other then that I liked this episode.

[SilverKnight]

When Max Lord said that the Ultimen would be made very comfortable for their remaining days, am I the only one who thinks they were disected the same day?Right over here, too. The implication wasn't very subtle, either, with them focusing on the hard-assed government lady.

Waller: "We'll take good care of them."

Me: "Yeah, uh-huh, I bet you will. They'll be dead in a week, tops."

[vulcanrush]

Yikes. She's a tramp simply because she finds Longshadow attractive? This is tricky terrain, my friend. A bit of a jump to apply such a label to WW for merely being human. It wouldn't be because she's a woman, now is it? where did you see that she found longshadow attractive?

did she talk with him about dating principles, ala "this little piggy" -- or anything similar? no.


vulcanrush, calm done man, you don't have to insult the guy just because he saw something you didn't see, even though I didn't see it either.

I liked this episode, they made the Superfriends rejects into actual superheros. Plus the conspiracy arc was continued, which is good.black arc, i didn't insult him.

but horrible choice of words -- "trampish", i mean.

and he's seeing things that aren't there.

[vulcanrush]

and regarding openly firting, since you asked: (off the top of my head): the sitting under the tree seemed like a very "boyfriend/girlfriend" scene to me.they were talking about longshadow's history.

if this isn't reading too much into things, i don't know what is.

the scene in "this little piggy", where ww and batman had their little chat -- not exactly the most romantic of places. on top of a building with stone gargoyles, but THAT was a boyfriend/girlfriend scene.

hey, maybe there's something going on between flash and j'onn too cuz they're away by themselves. :rolleyes:


But some of us wrinkle our noses at WW's initiative in pursuing Longshadow, and I wonder why. there's no "we", rebis.

it's ONE person.

she wanted to encourage longshadow, support him.

there was no romance angle to it.

but some people just read too much into things.

[stwasm]

Well, for the first time in a LOOOOOOOOOONG while, I can say, without hesitation....

TOTALLY AWESOME EPISODE!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

The homage to the old Challenge of the Superfriends was outstanding. I'm especially happy that those twins DIDN'T have a pet monkey! But, I gotta say that, at first, I thought the twins were girls. Anyway, I LOVED Batman's "Lights out, old chum" and "Mine are bigger than your's" lines. Just terrific timing!

But, it is scary that the writers hinted that they may know Batman's identity. And I LOVE the "X-Files" government cover-up plot! An earlier poster said it best. A cover-up is scarier than anything Darksied could cook up. And, I will add that seeing the professor from Star Labs (his name escapes me) in the middle of it all is an interesting plot twist. Although, I think it would have been interesting to see Supergirl's clone from an earlier episode.

All in all, an OUTSTANDING episode and I can't wait until next week! Keep it up, guys!

[Dr_Flask]

i liked the episode as another rung in the ladder that was started with "fearful symmetry." nice costumes for the ultimen. the line from waller about "rich boy" struck me as kind of obvious. most people should be able to figure out that bruce wayne is batman. after all:

batman has the batwing, batmobile, batarangs, costume and utility belt. all cost money.Exactly to the point I make. Read below.:)

She called him rich boy in the same sentence she's warning him to back off. I think it's clear she does know who he is. Still, Batman shouldn't give any indication that she's right, keep 'em guessing as long as possible...She presented no proof other then that statement. Een The Joker said Bruce Wayne was Batman at one point, but had no proof. What makes her word better than the Joker who been Bats main adversery for years? We know their both right but I'm inclined to believe The Joker before I believe this "never-seen before govt. official".

Again a superhero with gadgets like Bats is gonna cost some money so 1)figure out if he can afford it himself or 2) someone else is fitting the operation. After that just composed a chart and 3) analyze Batman main hangout or his city and 4) Just figure who's in that particular city/town has the means to afford such gadgets as Batman and 5) Tail them everywhere they go and keep documents. I'm sure the list of "suspects" would grow small in no time.
I'm surprise its taken Commissioner Gordon so long to figure out Bruce Wayne is Batman.

[SilverKnight]

they were talking about longshadow's history. you're incredibly naive.

if this isn't reading too much into things, i don't know what is.

the scene in "this little piggy", where ww and batman had their little chat -- not exactly the most romantic of places. on top of a building with stone gargoyles, but THAT was a boyfriend/girlfriend scene.The debate over WW actually liking Longshadow is a little murky. On the level, it just looks like she's being nice to him and helping him on. However, aside from Batman, when has she ever really done that? It doesn't seem to happen very often on JL/JLU, so given her previous history--the way she greets him, offers him to come patrol with her, the way they're sitting under a tree on top of a hill during a sunset--can all easily be constrewed as romantic things. I'm not entirely sure if it is or not. But it can look that way.

For instance, you might not actually be insulting or patronizing us with your rather arrogant way of speech and supposely rhetorical questions that you answer in the same line. But it can look that way. See how that works?


hey, maybe there's something going on between flash and j'onn too cuz they're away by themselves. :rolleyes:Oh come on. J'onn's so pining for Hawkgirl, what with their 'alone time' in JL season 2. :p


there's no "we", rebis.

it's ONE person.I think you misread Rebis' line. He used "we" in general, such as the way you use "some" in general later on in your post.

[vulcanrush]

As for the WW/Long Shadow thing, I also got the uncomfortable feeling that she was taking too much of an interest in him. I think this springs from the fact that we so rarely see WW acting nice. Most of the time, she's in full-on "I'mma kick yo ass" mode. The times I remember her acting something other than that has been when she acts coy around Batman. And she was confused most of the time around Princess Audrey. So when you have a woman who acts fairly differently from her normal portrayal and when that behavior is displayed in the company of a male, it's easy to see how thoughts might jump to . . . some form of watered-down flirting. It especially doesn't help when they portray the two of them together alone. And she invites him to patrol with her. (In Whedonverse, that's a date right there for Buffy Summers.) Nor does it help that WW seems to be the only member of the League who has faith in the Ultimen, "especially Long Shadow" as she says in the round table. After all, how does she know unless she's had the time and contact to form a favorable impression of the youth? It may not be what the writers intended, but the idea that WW has formed a potentially non-platonic attachment to the young man is very possible with the lines and situations given.

at least you're rational, skorpia, and aren't jumping to conclusions or reading too much into things.

here's how i see it -- it's obvious that ww is longshadow's favorite hero, and even more understandable considering he's a male.

and seeing how respectful, almost adoring, longshadow is -- why wouldn't ww be nice in return?

she's not THAT much of a [edit]. and he's young and impressionable, she wants to encourage him.

and although this episode features many characters, arguably the focus was on longshadow and ww.

to say that it doesn't help to portray them alone -- they're the focus of the episode, of course they're gonna be alone. just like audrey and ww in "maid of honor"...was there anything going on between them?

some people argued that too. :rolleyes:

Edit by Bird Boy: Watch the language.

[vulcanrush]

For instance, you might not actually be insulting or patronizing us with your rather arrogant way of speech and supposely rhetorical questions that you answer in the same line. But it can look that way. See how that works? Good, I thought you could. :)
they ARE rhetorical questions. it doesn't just "look" that way, they are.

and that's like the pot calling the kettle black coming from you. understand? good, i thought you could. ;)

[SilverKnight]

and that's like the pot calling the kettle black coming from you. understand? good, i thought you could. ;)You really like that line, don't you?

Touche, none the less. At least, about the rhetorical question thing.

[vulcanrush]

You really like that line, don't you?

Touche, none the less. At least, about the rhetorical question thing.nothing personal, silverknight. :) i'm not arrogant or patronizing, so i'm sorry if i came off that way.

but yeah, i read that line somewhere, and it's stuck in my head. :p

[Merlin Missy]

Translation on the WW/LS thing:

Long Shadow: Oh wow! The Justice League likes us! And they want us to join them! And Wonder Woman is like, totally hot, and she's paying attention to me! *bounce*

Wonder Woman: Nice kids. The tall one is giving me the adulation I am due as royalty. Batman, are you getting any of this?

Batman: Brood. Brood brood brood. *mutter* That Maxwell Lord thinks he's gonna horn in on my "ultrarich playboy hanging out with superheroes" schtick, I'm gonna show him. *louder* You say something, pumpkin?

Wonder Woman: :rolleyes: Long Shadow, let's go chat.

Long Shadow: OMG! SQUEE!!!! I mean, sure.


See, it's all about Bruce just not paying enough attention to Diana.

MM, who is still humming happily to herself about the "seven chairs at the table" thing :)

[Fone Bone]

Translation on the WW/LS thing:

Long Shadow: Oh wow! The Justice League likes us! And they want us to join them! And Wonder Woman is like, totally hot, and she's paying attention to me! *bounce*

Wonder Woman: Nice kids. The tall one is giving me the adulation I am due as royalty. Batman, are you getting any of this?

Batman: Brood. Brood brood brood. *mutter* That Maxwell Lord thinks he's gonna horn in on my "ultrarich playboy hanging out with superheroes" schtick, I'm gonna show him. *louder* You say something, pumpkin?

Wonder Woman: :rolleyes: Long Shadow, let's go chat.

Long Shadow: OMG! SQUEE!!!! I mean, sure.


See, it's all about Bruce just not paying enough attention to Diana.

MM, who is still humming happily to herself about the "seven chairs at the table" thing :)Hee hee!:anime:

My only problem with Wondie flirting with Long Shadow was that he probably isn't legal. Who an I kidding? He's one, definately not legal.

[warmachine04]

+ This episode takes reference to the classic "Superfreinds".

+ The story is a continuation to "Fearful Symmetry".

- Superman wasn't up to his better standards.

+ Aquaman makes a fine addition to the League.

- The story is somewhat uneven and too breezy.

+ The ending was quite surprising.

[vulcanrush]

Hee hee!:anime:

My only problem with Wondie flirting with Long Shadow was that he probably isn't legal. Who an I kidding? He's one, definately not legal.yeah, u're right fone bone, merlin is pretty funny.

that's classic. :p

but what flirting? taking things outta context. booster gold with that scientist, THAT was flirting.

ww was nice to audrey too, was she flirting with her too?

yeah, batman should be real worried. lol.

[Fone Bone]

yeah, u're right fone bone, merlin is pretty funny.

that's classic. :p

but what flirting? taking things outta context. booster gold with that scientist, THAT was flirting.

ww was nice to audrey too, was she flirting with her too?

yeah, batman should be real worried. lol.If it was debatable here, she was DEFINATELY flirting with Audrey.:sweat:

Speaking of Maid of Honor, how great was it that last night's episode included the word "poop"? Best expletive in the history of mankind! JLU keeps this up and we'll be able to use it in funny quotes threads.:)

[Rebis]

where did you see that she found longshadow attractive? did she talk with him about dating principles, ala "this little piggy" -- or anything similar? no. Ah, I begin to see why we're having trouble understanding each other.

In the real world, flirting is about subtext, not about what's said. It's intuitive and situational. It's the cock of the head, the arch of the eyebrow, the seemingly benign compliment, the breeze through the tree you're both innocently sitting under. It doesn't have a linear, rational language; it's pheromones and hunches. It's lines like "Why don't you come on patrol with me sometime," that on some level (even levels the speaker may not fully acknowledge) help gauge and satisfy the body's natural curiosity about the object of desire.

"Talking about dating principles" ... eesh, not sexy. And not flirting.

So vulcanrush, my advice is this: the next time you're at a party and you see a cutie, and you feel a little warm and a little reckless, don't walk up and talk about dating principles. Start with a spotless compliment. An earnest question. An invitation to step out onto the patio to watch the fireflies. If you lead off with "dating principles," well, I imagine you already know where that's gonna get you.


...and he's seeing things that aren't there.But we can only see and make sense of what we recognize from our own experiences. We only have terms for what we know. And we all know different things, in different quantities, with different values. There are more things in heaven and earth, vulcanrush, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.




I think it's good to call out this stuff when it pops up, because we all resort to assumptions about gender without realizing it. I totally do it too. It just may not be the fairest way of thinking about how men and women should (or do) behave.However, Conekiller could think it equally bad when men act in that manner. While I don't like gender assumptions either, I don't think we should assume someone has a gender assumption either. I agree, unwarranted assumptions are crass. But the word "tramp" is hardly value-free when it comes to gender-bias and sexism, wouldn't you agree?

[Duke]

o.O No offense, but what's the point of this little debate? I'm confused. :confused:

[Mysteryinfoman]

It was a good episode, beginning to start the big plot, I saw it as a lead-in but a good one. I liked the action, and teh whole goverment conspiracy thing if ther eis one.

[Apache Chief]

Who's this Longshadow punk think he is? He's no match for the real deal. Enuch Chuck!

J/K - great episode

[Maxie Zeus]

You're being over-simplistic. Longshadow came off as a pretty decent and compassionate chap with clear sense of ethics and Wonder Woman was supportive, merciful and in overall good form.

Eh, maybe. Perhaps the rest of the ep just left me bitter and cynical, but during those scenes I was channeling James Coburn in Charade, shouting at Longshadow: You greenhorn. You thick-skulled, hair-brained, half-witted greenhorn! She batted them big eyes at you, and you fell for it like a egg from a tall chicken! You greenhorn! You blockheaded jackass! You nincompoop!


I'm not quite sure what you're implying. You mean the goverment/JLU plot will be a bust?

Unless they pull something unexpected off, it's already a bust, AFAIC. Like Crimson, I groan at any story that decides to use the "government conspiracy" thing. Feh, just put the villain in an opera cape, top hat and handlebar moustache while you're at it. It's just as tired, cliched and boring.


On the other hand, perhaps the fact that they were able to bring about that kind of reaction from you is an indication that they are up to something rather interesting. From the way you wrote your post I get the feeling you don't exactly dislike these episodes (as I've seen you be a lot more harsh), instead you seem more surprised at the direction things are being pushed. It will be interesting to see how all this develops.

Actually, it's what I fear is coming that has me in a bad temper. I fear that it's going turn into Miller's "Dark Knight" sequel, a book that by the second issue was so repellant that I refused to even glance at part 3. I fear that JLU will descend into a situation in which we are meant to cheer for the "good guys" only because they are infinitesimally less toxic than the "bad guys." Well, if that's where it's going, I'm going to starting rooting for a series-ending deus ex machina appearance by Unicron and the late Orson Welles. Gobble gobble.

...

Maybe my bad temper is caused in part by some whipsawed reactions. To be fair, I actually dug the Superfriends stuff; every joke cracked me up, despite my foul humor. And I'm probably the only one here who loved the Britney Spears line. Of course, you know, shapeshifters must get off on turning themselves into celebrities, so I thought the "turning into Britney in your sleep" line was a knockout bit of psychological acuity. I was even cheered by the pot-and-kettle satire of Superman gracelessly mocking the Utramen's earnestness. So, there was some really good stuff in there. But it was like eating chocolate-chip-studded dog crap. Yuck yuck yuck mmmm yuck yuck mmmm yuck yuck yuck.


I've seen you be a lot more harsh

You must be confusing me with Matt Wilson. Because this is one time when I wanted to knock on his door and ask to borrow a cup of his radioactive acid.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

I liked the episode, only I wondered was the black lady (sorry I forgot her name)was also responsible for creating Supergirl's clone? I think it's possible, since Professor Hamilton works for her now.

How come Justice League didn't take all of the Ultimen with them to join the team until they die?

Wonder Woman seemed a little atttracted to one of the Ultimen. I found that interesting, since she really likes Batman. :yawn:

[Allen CARR]

well wonderwoman likes longshadow, what do you want her to do. Not think he is good looking cause she has feelings for the Bat. Batman doesn't want to get close to wonderwoman, so i guess thats that.

[William C. Maune]

stuff

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts more specifically on "Fearful Symmetry." I skimmed through the Talkback thread, but unless I missed it, the only post of yours that I found was a Frasier reference.

[Allen CARR]

^ Owen/Puck, who are you reffering to.

[Karkull]

"Fearful Symmetries" and "Ultimatum," on the other hand, are vast, broken-backed tankers gushing poison directly into the continuity.Sorry, but it was bound to come up. If the DCAU storylines follow the natural progression laid down by the comic books, this story arc is a tribute to the DC Universe of the 1980s, where the newly-relaunched Captain Atom series featured the title hero as a government spy who infiltrated the superhero community, the military was using convicted supervillains in black ops in Suicide Squad, and many books featured generalized mistrust against superhero organizations. These are all, of course, from twenty years ago, but they are eerily resonant today, as the current American political climate could be seen as a retread of the Reagan years. And I was afraid that the left-wing, bleeding heart Green Arrow would be outdated when he was finally used...

Also, it's becoming increasingly apparent that this series is becoming more fan-oriented as time goes on. This show is becoming less and less a series for kids and more for the twenty and thirty-somethings who have a fondness for the characters and have been watching this show and its antecedents for over ten years (the evening timeslot on a basic cable station instead of Saturday morning, the absence of a toy line for over a year, the introduction of characters that aren't introduced that confuse some but are picked up by older fans, etc.). This "government/Illuminati/splicing/whatever" storyline is cleverly tying itself to the other shows and making itself over as a continuous, interconnected series. The Fearful Symmetry episode itself not only ties itself to Legacy, but also to Identity Crisis (the start of the Kryptonian cloning story), A Little Piece of Home (those bad guys on the cool rocket packs), Target and Solar Power (the solid hologram technology), and The Zeta Project television series (and, through it, Batman Beyond).

As for the Ultimen, this episode brings forth further questions. For example, it was established in Symmetry that the government has been experimenting in superhuman DNA and, if Supergirl is any indication, they need donors to supply it. So that raises the question: who are the donors to the Ultimen? Giganta is the obvious choice for Longshadow, and either Livewire or Static could be the supplier for Juice. Wind Dragon is a big question mark for me, but I have a thought or two for who might have supplied the "Wonder Twins": our very own J'onn J'onzz. Think about it: he was imprisoned by the government at the beginning of Secret Origins. Who's to say that they didn't help themselves to some Martian DNA (this would tie into their Superfriends origins: the Wonder Twins were aliens from the planet Exxor, so having DNA from an alien donor would kind of fit, huh?)?

(Another fun fact: we all chuckled at the cameos by Giganta and Bizarro, two bad guys best known for their Superfriends appearances, but isn't it suspicious that the two of them, in this continuity, are both the products of gene splicing? Bizarro was, of course, the product of the cloning project that later birthed Galatea; Giganta was an ape from Gorilla City that Grodd transformed into a superpowered human using his advanced genetics.)

I, for one, like where this story arc is going. I also groaned slightly when General Hardcastle started with the whole "X-Files" speech in Symmetry, but when he started mentioning Volcana and the Royal Flush Gang I perked up a bit. Very clever, I thought, this actually ties into what has gone before. I like this series' transition from a "each-episode-is-self-contained" cartoon into an dramatic, interconnected program that happens to be animated. If this is the last breath of our beloved DCAU, I must say that they're pulling out all the stops.

[Ruffian]

That was a lot of fun. :D The episode was spotty, but the inconsistancies I felt didn't get in the way of my enjoyment.

I loved the Superfriends homage, especially the Wonder Twins and the Hall of Justice. Water powers never looked cooler. Aquaman guest spot was nice and continues to show how formidable he is. Bizarro felt kinda thrown in the mix. Giganta was good for showing off Long Shadow's powers, also a throwback to Superfriends.

Wonder Woman is a hit and a miss in this episode. I like her personality in this episode more than most others. She seemed more calm and collected, more willing to listen than making quick, angry conclustions. It felt more diplomatic and peacekeeping, qualities that I would attribute to Wonder Woman's character. The miss is that it's inconsistant to how she has normally behaved on the series so far. I also felt a bit queasy with her being nice to Long Shadow because it could be taken as flirting. Nothing wrong with flirting, but why can't she be nice just to be nice?

[William C. Maune]

^ Owen/Puck, who are you reffering to.

Maxie Zeus

[Allen CARR]

well wesley, she found Longshadow attractive, and very nice, and honest. how many men are like that ou thier.

[vulcanrush]

In the real world, flirting is about subtext, not about what's said. It's intuitive and situational. It's the cock of the head, the arch of the eyebrow, the seemingly benign compliment, the breeze through the tree you're both innocently sitting under. It doesn't have a linear, rational language; it's pheromones and hunches. It's lines like "Why don't you come on patrol with me sometime," that on some level (even levels the speaker may not fully acknowledge) help gauge and satisfy the body's natural curiosity about the object of desire.

"Talking about dating principles" ... eesh, not sexy. And not flirting.

So vulcanrush, my advice is this: the next time you're at a party and you see a cutie, and you feel a little warm and a little reckless, don't walk up and talk about dating principles. Start with a spotless compliment. An earnest question. An invitation to step out onto the patio to watch the fireflies. If you lead off with "dating principles," well, I imagine you already know where that's gonna get you.


please, no need to patronize.

don't take everything so literally, rebis.

i used "dating principles" as a example (for comparison) where she WAS flirting. not literally.

appreciate the dating advice, but it's ok, i don't need it...seeing as how i have half the number of posts you do. ;)

oh, and in the "real" world, if you read too much into things -- you'll be led on and will be in for a lot of disappointment.

if a woman that you admire and idolize invites you to, say, study with her -- it DOESN'T mean she's interested in you. she could just be returning the kindness.
ww was interested in steve trevor -- that's not taking things outta context.

[Gentleman Ghost]

Pretty good episode. I never watched Superfriends so the homages didn't hit home. It was cool seeing Amanda Waller though.

[Duke Psychology]

excellent episode. the Superfriends references were fun and the subplot is interesting. can't wait to see where it goes.

[Revelator]

[QUOTED: Maxie Zeus]

Eh, maybe.

No, definitely. Neither LongShadow nor Wonder Woman were particularly unlikable this time around. (Actually, WW was probably shown to her best this time around). It's not their fault that the late Mr. Coburn was controlling your mind. Get someone else in there instead. You're a philosopher, can't you corral Nieztsche or Kant?

Like Crimson, I groan at any story that decides to use the "government conspiracy" thing... Actually, it's what I fear is coming that has me in a bad temper. I fear that it's going turn into Miller's "Dark Knight" sequel, a book that by the second issue was so repellant that I refused to even glance at part 3.

Well, book 3 was twice as big a turd as book 2, so you didn't miss out. I agree that the the danger of encroaching Millerism is at hand, but am still confident that the creative team can avoid his mistakes. And while the gov. conspiracy plot is nothing new, there's nothing that says it can't be used in newer, more thrilling ways. It makes perfect sense that a group of aloof, ultra-powerful Gods would ruffle any government's feathers, and while Miller originally turned Superman into a government agent, it seems like JLU Superman would be more at home toppling the government. There's a scent of the apocalyptic brewing in this government subplot, and I hope it comes to fruition. And at a time when many feel more alienated from their government than ever--especially after the backdoor shenanigans that led to the current war--the notion of the JLu butting heads with a security-crazed, "you're with us or against us" government seems esecially timely and urgent.


I fear that JLU will descend into a situation in which we are meant to cheer for the "good guys" only because they are infinitesimally less toxic than the "bad guys."

That wouldn't neccesarily be an entirely bad thing (I say that after having rewatched The Good, The Bad and the Ugly and Dirty Harry) but I don't think it'd ever come to pass. The staff has too much affection for the characters to turn them into complete jerks (though Bats and Aquaman are interesting precisely because they're partial jerks, and Superman's authoritarian side is more interesting than his boy scout facade).

You must be confusing me with Matt Wilson.

Continue on in this fashion and that'll become easy to do.:p

[Style]

Why? You know who you are. I hope you're not worried your name's not being bandied about enough. Anyway, I'm referring to anyone who might have the such an opinion, not just yourself. Lastly, you can refer to me anyway you like if that's an issue.
It's an intellectual-honesty issue. Anyone not familiar with the situation won't understand why you brought up Teen Titans. Since it was a mild insult, (calling me "delusional") I just wanted it clear to everyone that you took time to insult me and my opinions, not just those limited to the episode.

Onto the point about the Superfriends vs. The Ultimen: I didn't find the Ultimen that deep either.* They were just in it for money and recognition, and then just recognition, Hence the Aisian guy's last ditch effort to be remember for killing some of the Justice League's top members. So when comparing paper-thin selfish characters to Razor thing Altruistic characters, I'll go with the Selfless guys who actually try to help people any day.

*Longshadow being the obvious exception. There was some hint of depth to him. His counterpart, Apache Chief, was the most devoloped of that group too.

[Deadman]

good episode

[Knight]

well wesley, she found Longshadow attractive, and very nice, and honest. how many men are like that ou thier.
Don't you think you are assuming more than what was presented? Every time a woman is nice to someone doesn't mean they are attracted to them. Did I miss something ? Was she rubbing his legs and glaring into his eyes?

From what I could see Diana took a protective/mentor stance with Longshadow and did not appear to be trying to pursue a relationship. I'm just not seeing the hints of attraction.

Even when looking at Longshadows character we don't see him going after Wonder Woman for a relationship or even any flirting either. He was in awe of the League as a whole and eager to join them. Diana took him under her wing and was getting to know him.That's not something unusual. He was of course a little nervous around WW because it was the equivalent of meeting and working with someone you have always idolized.

[Allen CARR]

and Longshadow found her very attractive.

[Revelator]

[QUOTED: stly92]

It's an intellectual-honesty issue. Anyone not familiar with the situation won't understand why you brought up Teen Titans. Since it was a mild insult, (calling me "delusional") I just wanted it clear to everyone that you took time to insult me and my opinions, not just those limited to the episode.

I was presuming that there would be plenty of people familiar with the situation (it is a small board after all), and those who weren't would actually care who I was insulting because they wouldn't be interested. If you want to be recogized everytime you get swatted you'll have to put in the extra effort, not me, honest or not.

Onto the point about the Superfriends vs. The Ultimen: I didn't find the Ultimen that deep either.* They were just in it for money and recognition, and then just recognition...So when comparing paper-thin selfish characters to Razor thing Altruistic characters, I'll go with the Selfless guys who actually try to help people any day.

While it's clear that the Ultimen were deeper than the Superfriends--they were allowed to show emotions like anguish and anger that the Supefriends never fully displayed--the actual issue is not primarily one of depth so much as putting the goody-goody one dimensionality of the Superfriends against the superficiality of what the Superfriends would have been in the DCAU universe. As in nearly all satire, the characters are not deep but more realistic in terms of motivation and personality, and 21 minutes of the Ultimen proved more memorable than every minute of Superfriends squared. There's little that's more boring than pure, unconflicted goody-goodyness, and the money-grubbing, egocentric, self-involved, doomed Ultimen ultimately have more to their characters than the Superfriends. To prefer the latter to the former is a personal problem, and not one I'm particularly concerned with.

[JohnStewart-GL]

I heard some bad things about this episode on another board so i wasnt expecting much but i liked it more than i expected. it was a bit of a rehash of heroes but i preferred the Ultimen to Heroes.
Likes:
Ultimen
Waller and her comment, shes so hard.
Superman's comments about Wind Dragon being corny :p
Aquaman finally with tha League with out his own agenda
Project Cadmus
continuing storyline
Batman saying 'Old Chum' and 'Mine is bigger'
Dislikes:
Supermans strength. i didnt so much mind him losing to Wind Dragon but tha Magma stuff held him to easily. i think it shoulda took much more of that to hold him. but i liked his spin move so his powers werent horribly off.

Downpour fighting Aquaman with water was jus plain dumb. but it definately mad aquaman look bad*****

rehashing Heroes

Juices voice

overall it was pretty good. id say 3 1/2 stars or so. eagerly lookn too next week

[Vagrant]

You must be confusing me with Matt Wilson. Because this is one time when I wanted to knock on his door and ask to borrow a cup of his radioactive acid. Take a number.

I saw it again and I'm still drinking the Hatoraide.

It's a fine short story. The problem, as others have pointed out, is this short, nice, fun, stand-alone story is a poor fit in this continuity. To make matters worse, the bolted on government conspiracy subplot ruined whatever charm this episode had.

I grew up running away from the Superfriends. I have no fond memories of it. Sorry Wonder Twins.

One more thing. JLU WRITERS, DO NOT PRODUCE ANY MORE PARODY, TRIBUTE OR HUMOR EPISODES! THEY'RE ALL GARBAGE AND THEY ARE RUINING THE PLOT!!!

Here, Matt. You can have it back.

[sKorpia]

21 minutes of the Ultimen proved more memorable than every minute of Superfriends squaredBut without having experienced the Superfriends, the Ultimen come off as very unmemorable and easily written off as superficial, materialistic teenagers (except of course Long Shadow). Can this episode only be enjoyed if you've previously watched Superfriends? Cuz that's how it's starting to feel for me. :sad:

[Johnny Cakes]

Feh, just put the villain in an opera cape, top hat and handlebar moustache while you're at it.

I would love to see that. He could tie Lois Lane to the railroad tracks. And steal all the parsnips.

[Nanashi]

I'm hestitant to criticize the underlying plot arc right now, because I have a funny feeling that we'll all come back at the end of the season going, "OMG TAHT SUBPLOT RAWKED EVRY EPISODE IS TEH BEST!!" We just don't know enough about it to criticize yet (in my opinion). That's kinda the point of a subplot - it just feeds us a little information at a time.


...One more thing. JLU WRITERS, DO NOT PRODUCE ANY MORE PARODY, TRIBUTE OR HUMOR EPISODES! THEY'RE ALL GARBAGE AND THEY ARE RUINING THE PLOT!!!...Ah, yes. We should only have angst-ridden, Batman-centered episodes from now on.

[Vagrant]

I'm hestitant to criticize the underlying plot arc right now, because I have a funny feeling that we'll all come back at the end of the season going, "OMG TAHT SUBPLOT RAWKED EVRY EPISODE IS TEH BEST!!" We just don't know enough about it to criticize yet (in my opinion). That's kinda the point of a subplot - it just feeds us a little information at a time.

Ah, yes. We should only have angst-ridden, Batman-centered episodes from now on. That would be marginally better than what JLU is producing; which are lot of uneven, sophomoric, mindless romps which still suffer from too many Batman one-liners.

I appreciate humor in an action show, when the humor builds the story, characterization and the plot. A good part of Fearful Symmetry is laugh out loud funny. The humor was well timed the wit was sharp. The Questions' antics and philosophy were amusing, and fleshed out his character nicely. The comedy made the final revelations more dramatic and poignant.

Too much straight parody and homage stuff is stifling, and if poorly executed, deadly dull. JLU has only pulled off one straight humor episode that's even mildly amusing.

My armchair advice is make a lot more episodes like Fearful Symmetry and fewer like Ultimatum.

[Revelator]

Can this episode only be enjoyed if you've previously watched Superfriends? Cuz that's how it's starting to feel for me. :sad:
I've watched a combined total of 10 minutes of Superfriends in my entire life and am more familiar with Apache Chief through Harvey Birdman than whatever version of Superfriends he appeared on. Furthermore, though I had several reseravtions, I enjoyed the episode. And anyone who looks over other comments on this thread will see that people who've never seen Superfriends enjoyed this episode. There.

[Mister Intensity]

It would have been nice if Nightwing was in this episode. How could they do a Superfriends tribute without the fifth senior member of the Superfriends (when he was Robin). Besides, with him in it there would have been a better context for an "old chum" comment, instead of the one within the episode, which was out of place.

Mister Intensity

[Maxie Zeus]

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts more specifically on "Fearful Symmetry." I skimmed through the Talkback thread, but unless I missed it, the only post of yours that I found was a Frasier reference.

I only posted that one note in the talkback. My reaction to "Fearful Symmetry" I hoped was a one-off, and I didn't see any point at the time in getting into it. And I still don't really want to get into it.


Get someone else in there instead. You're a philosopher, can't you corral Nieztsche or Kant?

Okay then. When you gaze for long into the abyss that is "Ultimatum," the abyss that is "Ultimatum" gazes also into you. And Out of timber so crooked as that from which "Ultimatum" was fashioned nothing entirely straight can be carved. :p


And at a time when many feel more alienated from their government than ever--especially after the backdoor shenanigans that led to the current war--the notion of the JLu butting heads with a security-crazed, "you're with us or against us" government seems esecially timely and urgent.

:shrug: Sure, you can read it that way, with the "government" as the Bush Administration and the JLU as the anti-Bush brigade. Or you can read it another way: The JLU is turning into an arrogant, out-of-control arbiter of world affairs, threatening the sovereignty and freedoms of the world's nations, and the world governments are reacting against a rogue (ahem) "superpower." Which would make the JLU into the Bush Administration and the conspirators into the anti-Bush brigades, I guess.

Who would you root for then? The government, or the League?

Or, if you don't happen to think that the Bush Administration is evil, I tell you, eeeeee-vil! you can read the "government conspirators" as international kleptocratic thugs who need to be taken down a notch by people who actually take the ideals of freedom and justice seriously and have the power to do so. And are right to do so, even if they're jerks in private.

Moral: Start with a particular political prejudice, and you can read JL to fit it. Which is fine, if that's what you're into. As I say: :shrug:


The staff has too much affection for the characters to turn them into complete jerks (though Bats and Aquaman are interesting precisely because they're partial jerks, and Superman's authoritarian side is more interesting than his boy scout facade).

I hope so, though something like this story arc makes me worry that they'll miscalculate and create an effect they don't intend.

[Revelator]

[QUOTED: Maxie Zeus]

Sure, you can read it that way, with the "government" as the Bush Administration and the JLU as the anti-Bush brigade. Or you can read it another way: The JLU is turning into an arrogant, out-of-control arbiter of world affairs, threatening the sovereignty and freedoms of the world's nations, and the world governments are reacting against a rogue (ahem) "superpower."

Except that the JLU hasn't actually threatened any country's sovereignty, though they have saved lots of country's behinds. And so far they've hardly been out of control. They're loose cannons who haven't fired yet. What the government is fearful of is the notion of the league as a separatesovereignty, one they can't control. In other words, now that Superman is no longer fighting specifically for the American way (their way), they've become very worried. I don't mean to suggest that the JL is a specifically anti-Bush force, since that would tie the show far too close to politics, but rather that the show is feeding off a very wide sense of alienation related to the current administration. I doubt your proposed alternative reading would be validated by the show or its creators: if it was, we'd be watching a cautionary tale about how superheroes really need to be controlled by Uncle Sam. Who on this board (or elsewhere) would view the JLU as a rogue force that needs taming?

Moral: Start with a particular political prejudice, and you can read JL to fit it.

That's far too much of a platitude. We can read our beliefs into any work if we operate on too large a scale, but politics can never be separated from art, and every work carries an ideology within it, and while that ideology cannot be pinned down scientifically, there are always interpretations supported more fully by the nature of the text than others.

[Ian]

What about the countries in Hawk and Dove? Take away the giant rampaging robot, and you could argue that the league interfered in the peoples right to kill themselves with weapons. And what about the Thanagarians' sovereignity? Mongul's?

[Duke]

And what about the Thanagarians' sovereignity?
What about it? The JL didn't want their home world destroyed.

[Ian]

That still doesn't change the fact that technically, the Thanagarians were Earth's rightful rulers. In beating them, the JL basically commited a coup d'etat, which is nothing if not interfering with a ruler's sovereignity.

[William C. Maune]

In regards to the talk of a conspiracy, perhaps there is no true conspiracy at all. The reason we all got stuck on the idea in the first place was due to The Question, but perhaps he was blowing things out of proportion. There is definitely something going on, but that, in itself, doesn't mean it is a conspiracy. I highly doubt it involves boy bands and the other things The Question was rattling on about.

When the Justice League is going to take on some villain group, they don't phone ahead and say "Here's the plan, we don't want to withold it from you, otherwise we'd be conspirators!" Instead, they make their plan of attack, put on their best poker face (such as when Martian Manhunter was filling in as Clayface) and take care of business.

Similarly, the gov't isn't going to up and say, "Hey Justice League! We're putting these plans in place in case you go roguee. Our plans involve blah, blah, blah... We'll keep you informed on how things are progressing!" Right now the gov't has a problem. Superman has already attacked once (not to mention the Justice Lords) and now there are tens of people with various powers approaching those of Superman that the gov't has no real jurisdiction over. The gov't would probably be dumb to not make a contingency plan and when they make that plan they aren't going to reveal their cards. They are also going to put on their best poker face.

The Question may call all this a "conspiracy," but he calls everything a conspiracy. It's really more just the other side building up their own resources against a perceived and potential threat. We, the viewer, may not know who is involved on teh government side or what their plan is, but that is because we generally see things from the view of the League. The show really building a conspiracy, instead it is brewing conflict between two sides that will likely culminate in the mother of all clashes.

[WonderRaver]

MM, who is still humming happily to herself about the "seven chairs at the table" thing :)Gee, Missy, I just assumed that since Aquaman was sitting at the table, the seventh chair was his....:evil: Then again, with the Flash's absence, perhaps chair number five is reserved for the return of <bleep>! Edited by the spoiler gods

I enjoyed this episode for more reasons than one. Well, two actually...

1) I grew up on the Superfriends. I am sorry if you young whippersnappers have no appreciation for the good ol' days!

2) Wonder Woman. This was the best characterization of Diana by far. To the people who are complaining about Diana's mood swings... this is how WW should act, not all that other crud we've seen (specifically "Eclipsed" and "Hawk and Dove"). Sure, I like Di to cut loose like the warrior she is, but she is a warrior of peace. This means that she is nicey-nice until you give her no other option but to bust your face. Kinda like Starfire... too bad the writers on TT got to the archetype first.

Oh, and I enjoyed WW getting the upper hand on Bizarro. Sure, the superfans will be in an uproar, but come on... she distracted him, punched him once and then let Long Shadow finish the job. Still, it made me proud of my girl. :D

-Matt

[Allen CARR]

Bizzaro superman has the brains of tree. anybody with sperstrength coud of popped him one hes dumb.

Anyway i finally liked Dianas attiude in this episode. she wasn't acting all PMS nonsense. she liked men that aren't named superman or Batman, and she seemed to care for Longshadows well being.

[Yojimbo]

Intersting things brought up besides the government subplot, Waller's reference to the Suicide Squad, Bizarro's return, Grodd's whereabouts, the Lava men/ Fire Trolls appearing, the round table, Downpour's powers being nearly useless etc. But I enjoyed watching it and I look forward to next week.

[Style]

Hee Hee, I feel so vindicated now. Because this comment:
I've watched a combined total of 10 minutes of Superfriends in my entire life...
Makes this comment,

...and 21 minutes of the Ultimen proved more memorable than every minute of Superfriends squared.
Utterly meaningless, and This comment:

...and am more familiar with Apache Chief through Harvey Birdman than whatever version of Superfriends he appeared on.
Makes This opinion:

The episode was obviously thought up first as a Superfriends homage, and these characters are several million times more interesting than the Superfriends characters.
Pointless and Laughable. I feel so much happier now that your arguements against heroic Altruism of the Superfriends have no weight whatsoever. Until you go pick up the Challenge of the Superfriends DVD set for yourself, I'm a little bit more of an authority on this subject than you. But you should check it out. Paul Dini and Alex Ross have some good things to say about the show on the look-back documentary.

[Fone Bone]

Government conspiracy stories ARE getting old hat but I agree that it IS timely now with the way half the country is feeling. I also think the Superfriends-- I mean the JLU will be standing on the side of justice and not power.

Either way, it is incredibly cool how this subplot is tying all the DCAU series together. Basically it's making me question everything I've ever known about the DCAU. And what is wrong with a story that makes you want to watch the entire DCAU twice?

[Style]

As for the Government conspiracy, I hope it's more interesting next time we see it. Ultimateum essentially just rehashed what we knew from Fearful Symmetry: The Government is cooking up some of it's own super-powered individuals to work against the league at some point. I hope there's actually someone interesting at the top of it. If it all turns out to be a Lex Luthor/Vandal Savage plot, I will be very disappointed.

Maybe it would be an interesting move if they got Batman's identity from a certain former British agent, someone close enough to Batman to know that sort of thing. Hey, that would be more interesting Than Hamilton's betrayal, because he had a good reason to mistrust Superman. Alfred would be a whole other story, playing off the conflicted loyalties one has for a son and one has for his country, his planet.

[Style]

And what is wrong with a story that makes you want to watch the entire DCAU twice? Nothing, as long as they deliver on some of those turnarounds. "Ultimateum." was just "Hey, we just wanted to remind you there's a government conspiracy. Remember fearful symmetry? Here's more of that."

[Fone Bone]

Nothing, as long as they deliver on some of those turnarounds. "Ultimateum." was just "Hey, we just wanted to remind you there's a government conspiracy. Remember fearful symmetry? Here's more of that."I was more talking about Fearful Symmetry. Ultimatum did indeed botch the arc and kept the wheels spinning in place.

[Paul_Cousins]

Or, if you don't happen to think that the Bush Administration is evil, I tell you, eeeeee-vil! you can read the "government conspirators" as international kleptocratic thugs who need to be taken down a notch by people who actually take the ideals of freedom and justice seriously and have the power to do so. And are right to do so, even if they're jerks in private.Okay guys, they're not evil, just worried.

I can see the DCAU U.S. government's point of view on this, there is an army of super-beings as powerful as the mythic titans that orbit about the Earth, who answer to no one. And they are worried of what happens if the JLU turn on the human race and they of preparing for it.

Keep in mind that they got GOOD reason to believe that may happen because their universe's Superman did turn on them once in S:TAS Legacy Parts 1 & 2, and I am sure they had a 'little chat' with the depowered Justice Lords from JL A Better World Parts 1 & 2.

By the way, I liked this episode, 8 out of 10, the creators of JLU actually remolded the Superfriends flunkies into cool characters, especially the wonder twins (whatever they are called in the JLU) and Long Shadow.

[Revelator]

[QUOTED: stly92] I feel so much happier now that your arguements against heroic Altruism of the Superfriends have no weight whatsoever. Until you go pick up the Challenge of the Superfriends DVD set for yourself, I'm a little bit more of an authority on this subject than you.

You're welcome to remain the authority. I saw enough of Superfriends to convince me that watching anymore might induce brain damage. I'm not a glutton for punishment or a posessor of sado-masochistic tendencies, so the challenge of the Superfriends will have to remain unmet. The fact that you remain pretty much the only person on this board (and probably on earth) to prefer the cardboard-goody Superfriends to the Ultimen speaks for itself. (Well, I think there might be one other person who thinks that way--enjoy setting up the club-room!)

[maxnugget]

In regards to the talk of a conspiracy, perhaps there is no true conspiracy at all. The reason we all got stuck on the idea in the first place was due to The Question, but perhaps he was blowing things out of proportion. There is definitely something going on, but that, in itself, doesn't mean it is a conspiracy. I highly doubt it involves boy bands and the other things The Question was rattling on about.

When the Justice League is going to take on some villain group, they don't phone ahead and say "Here's the plan, we don't want to withold it from you, otherwise we'd be conspirators!" Instead, they make their plan of attack, put on their best poker face (such as when Martian Manhunter was filling in as Clayface) and take care of business.

Similarly, the gov't isn't going to up and say, "Hey Justice League! We're putting these plans in place in case you go roguee. Our plans involve blah, blah, blah... We'll keep you informed on how things are progressing!" Right now the gov't has a problem. Superman has already attacked once (not to mention the Justice Lords) and now there are tens of people with various powers approaching those of Superman that the gov't has no real jurisdiction over. The gov't would probably be dumb to not make a contingency plan and when they make that plan they aren't going to reveal their cards. They are also going to put on their best poker face.

The Question may call all this a "conspiracy," but he calls everything a conspiracy. It's really more just the other side building up their own resources against a perceived and potential threat. We, the viewer, may not know who is involved on teh government side or what their plan is, but that is because we generally see things from the view of the League. The show really building a conspiracy, instead it is brewing conflict between two sides that will likely culminate in the mother of all clashes.

Very well said.

This has the potential to be a REALLY interesting story arc, if they play it out well. They've latched on to a very real and complex conflict that has formed, especially post-Starcrossed, in the DCAU. And it's complex enough that there's not really any obvious resolution, which is saying a lot about how much potential this story arc has.

On the other hand, like William C. Maune noted, the writers would be squandering the enormous potential of this story arc if they choose to turn this into a "ooh, big government conspiracy" and play the government out to be the evildoers, as they have done in "Fearful Symmetry" and "Ultimatum." They'd be better served making us sympathetic to the government, and make the audience themselves question the League's place in the world of the DCAU.

The worst, least interesting way to play out this story arc would be that the big, bad evil government is hatching a super-top-secret conspiracy that the League must uncover and stop, and the foolish, ignorant human population of earth just doesn't understand how great the League is and the League need merely convince the humans to trust them to resolve their conflict.

One might say this is also similar to the Cold War arms race, and the governments of the world are trying to keep up with the JLU.

[Alpha Flight]

A good episode! Not as good as "Twilight" but one of the better ones.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Ingredients for Ace's opinion about "Ultimatum":

- 1 healthy dose of amusement at the Superfriends references
- 1 small amount of skepticism that some people will react negatively to the episode specifically because it contains Superfriends references
- 1 large dollop of eye-rolling at the government conspiracy angle
- 3 cups giddy comic fanboy pleasure at seeing Maxwell Lord and Amanda Waller, though J.M. DeMatteis is writing Lord rather differently than he did in the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League episodes
- Dash of cool factor because CCH Pounder was "the Wall" (and did a great job of it)
- 1 gallon annoyance that they just remade "Heroes," tempered by the sense that I don't think I can judge this episode properly until we see the ones after it.

Mix all the above together with Ace's Crazy-Nutso Interpretation Mix (see below). Blend until smooth.

I'm choosing not to interpret current events into "Ultimatum." I think the point of Maxie Zeus' alternate interpretations isn't to pose one of them as "what the writers really meant" as much as to say that you can cut it any way you want to if you think about it hard enough. As such, I think debating those points is pretty much a non-starter.

At this point, just about any story that hinges on a conspiracy -- especially one run by the government, the Freemasons, the Illuminati, or any combination of those 3 -- faces a major uphill battle for any kind of traction in my head. JLU is getting over that hump purely by dint of being a product of creators who I've trusted in the past and who haven't let me down much, if at all, before.

OK, here's where I get seriously meta on you all. Feel free to skip to the next post if you don't feel like reading my ramblings that may sound better if you're really really sleep deprived or on some serious cough medicine.

Ace's Crazy-Nutso Interpretation Mix

Most fans of Superfriends know that the "Challenge" series created a bunch of superheroes created by some rampaging politically correct committee without a whit of understanding about the cultures in question. This gave us El Dorado, Apache Chief, the Samurai, and Black Vulcan -- characters who existed solely to be tokens and who ended up as completely insulting and laughable stereotypes of the cultures and races they were supposed to be respecting.

What little sense of character grasped we got from those shows only told us one thing -- they had powers, and they decided to sign on with the Justice League, rather than with the Legion of Doom. They wanted to be heroes. They were created, in some small way, to supplement and/or supplant the predominantly white male order of superheroes with shots of color, if not much gender equality. When it turned out that they failed in that purpose, these characters were dumped into the dustbin of superherodom -- reduced to little more than punchlines and the occasional weird tribute/homage, if they were remembered at all.

So, maybe in some weirdzo way, "Ultimatum" becomes more interesting if you look at it as some strange parable of what happened to the Superfriends of Color. They were created to be heroes, they meant well, and they weren't a COMPLETELY bad bunch of guys. However, all that doesn't change the fact that they're completely artificial creations that sprang from well-meaning but fundamentally misguided intentions, and were destined to break down eventually under scrutiny. Their ultimate fate is to be swept under the rug, as though they never existed, and forgotten despite all those times they saved us from the Legion of Doom.

Or, maybe I need to stay up for another few days swigging more of the Nyquil...

(EDIT: I'm not for a minute suggesting that Ace's Crazy-Nutso Interpretation Mix is what the creators actually had in mind when they wrote the episode. Unless, of course, Dwayne McDuffie, b.t., or one of the other guys comes on and says that they did, in which case I reserve the right to jump up and down and shout, "I KNEW it!!!!" :D)

-- Ed/Ace

[Squall]

Well, I had to work most of the day both Saturday and Sunday, so I finally got to watch this episode on tape Sunday night. Eh... it was OK. The nod to the SuperFriends was cute, I suppose, but totally unnecessary, IMO. I'd prefer the Bruce Timm DCAU keep as far away from anything SuperFriends as possible.

Speaking of which... the "Wonder Twins"? The other Ultimen I could live with, but even the famous "Wonder Twins" couldn't seem to survive a Timm-izing. Maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't actually have to say what they were turning into before they did it, but it just didn't work for me.

Even though we only got a glimpse of it, that Bat-copter-thing was god awful looking! That did not look like a Batman device at all... it wasn't sleek, it wasn't sexy, and it wasn't even black. What were the animators thinking?


If JLU is meant to be a dramatic show, I think it may be suffering from its 1/2 hour time limit...
I agree. This is yet another episode that would have not felt so rushed had it been made into a two-parter, and had the storyline fleshed out a bit more.


...I groan at any story that decides to use the "government conspiracy" thing... It's just as tired, cliched and boring...
What's wrong with a good government conspiracy? It's a classic literary setup. I'm looking forward to the further buildup, and then the big payoff next season! :) As a Radio/TV/Film major friend of mine in college says, "There have been few original story ideas since Shakespeare's time; it's really all about the quality of the work, and the delivery of the story itself." She's right! So, just like all roller coasters may do the same thing, but each one has its own feel and pleasure, the same can be said for stories. So you might as well enjoy the ride! :p

Anyway, the more episodes of JLU I see, the more I wish that they'd stuck with the JL formula and done a Season 3 of JL in its original format (with only 7 heroes, and possibly, say, 15 max after expansion... but no more). But, oh well, it's now JLU, so now I'm just hoping for consistency in presentation, and that Timm & Co. make the best of it. (I'm sure that, given enough episodes, they will.) But every episode seems to introduce another cheeseball element that I was hoping would be absent from the series (random example: that Bat-copter-thing was god awful looking)...

[DerekPowers]

First, let me say i love the dcau and jl and all the characters, but having said that i honestly must say that i was very let down by this episode, as i have been with almost every jlu episode to date.

i just dont know, but jlu just doesnt work for me. there is just something missing. everything just seems so generic, bland, and empty.

i'll start my review by saying, did we really need the ultimen? why is this show called jlu? its sooo frustrating. we never see the new characters. like, i am sick of the 'other' superhero team vs the jl. its been done. im sick of the whole, genetically engineered/cloned heros who have damaged dna or whatever. its so trite.

im gonna say it right now, i truely think JLU is a mediocre at best show. i appreciate the continuity. i appreciate the designs. i appreciate the past shows. but i just CAN NOT sit by and pretend that this is a good show. i care too much about the dcau, and i hope that by constructively criticizing the show, we can get some seriously needed improvements, the way we did with the original jl.

first of all, the character development and dialogue in this episode was terrible. superman, ww, aquaman and batman all just seemed so empty. there was NOTHING interesting going on with ANY of them. the ultimen were also just cliche. their whole premise was cliche, and like everyone has been saying, we've already seen this, many times before, in the dcau. blah. everything is just so simple with no depth. i dont know how people on these boards can complain about 'the batman' and then praise jlu. i think jlu need to work on its dialogue and writing WAY more than the batman does.

once again superman get his butt kicked. GOD, why is it so hard to get him right? like, wouldnt it have made more sense to have AQUAMAN be trapped or in distress? or batman? why superman? why is it always superman? when that ultiman guy was saying how superman was his hero, i couldnt help thinking, why? he just got his butt kicked. i just dont understand.

next, why not have an episode that features a bunch of JLU members, and actually develop them? in this episode they had 9 characters, more or less with a lot of screen time. why not get rid of the ultimen and add new jlu characters? have some kind of story that involves conflict in the league, training, SOMETHING. ANYTHING. why is this show called JLU again?

overall i just felt this episode was boring, predictable and all the jl characters have become interchangable. the writers have to figure out a way to make the heros unique and usefull and interesting. right now, theyre just cardboard cutouts. there is not emotion, drive, nothing behind any of the jl characters anymore. they dont stratagize with each other, they dont do anything. everything about jlu just is so rushed and 2-dimensional. every league member is just so interchangable.

i still would like to know why this show is called JLU. it really shouldnt be, and its like false advertising.

as for the story arch. yeah, like i said, i appreciate the effort, but its so predicatable, over-done, just plain trite and frankly kind of uninteresting. i agree with what Matt Wilson said. basically, id rather have a quality show than a continuing arch built on mediocre at best episodes.

oh, and Squall, i agree, the bat-chopper or copter or whatever it was was just terrible. i was like, what the hell??? are they kidding? i had to slow motion it just to even make out that aquaman was hanging on. at first it looked like they had matching bulky red things. geez. i wouldnt believe theyd give batman that kind of treatment if i hadnt seen it with my own eyes. and btw, batman already has a flying device, one thats actually cool. :rolleyes:

the only part i actually liked was when aquaman shot out his hook at the begining. that was cool, and that was it for me.

oh, and so the government knows batman's identity. hmmm, how does that effect the continuity? i am intrigued by that, but like i said, jlu's intriguing moments are just WAY to few and far between for me.

how anyone could give this episode 4 stars is beyond me. i honestly think people need to start admitting that jlu is pretty low quality. there is just no cohesiveness to any of the episodes, and i get no overall feel for the show at all. its just not grounded in anything, there is no like premise or anything. arg, i dont know how to explain it. i will just say, that in all honesty, and again, i love the dcau and jl and the creative team, but i honestly enjoy watching 'the batman' more than i do jlu, and thats just not the way it should be.

seriously people, its time to stop the charade and call a spade a spade. i dont mean to sound so harsh, and i truely dont want to offend anyone here because i have the utmost respect for everyone who posts here and everyone who works on jlu, but im having trouble verbalizing my feelings about the show, like, im having trouble really breaking it down, deconstructing it, and figuring out what is inherently wrong with this show, so im really relying on a lot of the other posters to help me do that, in an attempt to try to hopefully improve jlu through critique, kind of like the way we did with the original jl. peace.

[swarlock]

This is an obvious omage to Samurai, Apache Chief, The Wonder Twins, and Black Vulcan(Super Volt!!!)
I thought so too.

[Maxie Zeus]

Except that the JLU hasn't actually threatened any country's sovereignty, though they have saved lots of country's behinds.

What about "Initiation," in which the JLU intervenes inside a sovereign country to take out a rogue "weapon of mass destruction," without that government's position and apparently against its wishes? If it had been a US Army battalion staging that intervention in those circumstances, what your reaction be?


politics can never be separated from art, and every work carries an ideology within it.

Every work? Are you just being a chic radical, or do you seriously believe this? Are you familiar with its consequences (http://www.ce-review.org/99/1/music1_horton.html)?

[LadyM]

But without having experienced the Superfriends, the Ultimen come off as very unmemorable and easily written off as superficial, materialistic teenagers (except of course Long Shadow). Can this episode only be enjoyed if you've previously watched Superfriends? Cuz that's how it's starting to feel for me. :sad:
I enjoyed it and I never watched the Superfriends. :) I did recognize Jan and . . . the other one . . . just because they're so infamous. Or is it Van? Zan?

I did think they "turned evil" too quickly for no good reason ("Let's take down the Justice League! Just because!"), but overall I enjoyed the episode. And Maxwell Lord, yaaaay!

~LM~

[Squall]

oh, and Squall, i agree, the bat-chopper or copter or whatever it was was just terrible. i was like, what the hell??? are they kidding? i had to slow motion it just to even make out that aquaman was hanging on. at first it looked like they had matching bulky red things. geez. i wouldnt believe theyd give batman that kind of treatment if i hadnt seen it with my own eyes. and btw, batman already has a flying device, one thats actually cool. :rolleyes:
Yeah, exactly! It didn't look like anything Batman owned or used... it looked like something he'd just bought off eBay. IMO, they should have had Batman use the glider he used in episodes like S:TAS "World's Finest", and as for Aquaman... why was he being carried around in the middle of a big city on the surface at all? They should have brought Flash along for the final fight. :) Aquaman's presence made sense at the oil rig, but for the final fight in the skyscraper it felt forced. In fact, after the oil rig scene, I was expecting Aquaman to say to the other Justice League members, "Well, the oil spill was prevented. I've got business to attend to in Atlantis. Call me if you need me."

Oh, and another random thought -- even though the title of the show is the Justice League Unlimited, I'm glad that everyone on the show -- members themselves, other characters such as reporters and businessmen, etc. -- still only refer to it as "the Justice League", without the 'U'.

[Revelator]

[QUOTED: Maxie Zeus]
What about "Initiation," in which the JLU intervenes inside a sovereign country to take out a rogue "weapon of mass destruction," without that government's position and apparently against its wishes? If it had been a US Army battalion staging that intervention in those circumstances, what your reaction be?

The US would have no business staging that intervention since it's not their country. But the JLU is presumably like the UN or Red Cross, a world-wide organization with no particular allegiance to one country. The League was initially told to stay out of the situation by the Chong-Ri military command, and did just that until they saw the monster menace civilians and the military. Then they stepped in as a humanitarian force and disarmed the monster. For all we know, the government might have thanked them afterwards for preventing the monster from going totally amok and trashing the rest of the country, since no one else could have stopped it. The government/military told them to stay out before realizing they couldn't stop the monster. The JLU responded before the government could reassess the situation. They might have disobeyed the initial orders of the government, but they were not strictly infringing on the country's sovereignty by their presence, though the government then asked them leave.

Every work? Are you just being a chic radical, or do you seriously believe this? Are you familiar with its consequences (http://www.ce-review.org/99/1/music1_horton.html)?

I expected a more intelligent response from you. Yes, politics is inseparable from art: how could it be separate from the systems we choose to run our lives and our problems with them? And ideology, ( to quote merriam-webster, "a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture, also the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program") lies within every work produced within a human society structured around ideologies and where ideologies clash. That doesn't mean that every work has a clear set of political instructions within it (JL does not say "We hate the current administration--on the other hand, the fact that it obviously doesn't promote or look favorably on Communism is clear and an obvious part of its ideology), only that every work buys, in varying extents, into a certain ideology or set of idoelogies. Sometimes the extent of that is foregrounded, and sometimes not (we can this happening in the recent debate over the ideology of The Incredibles). It's another matter to seek out and crush works for displaying what one views as negative ideologies. Saying that every work has an ideology (something most top-rank humanities professors in this country would agree to) may have encouraged Stalinist persecution of artists, but that is hardly the only consequence imaginable. Stalinist conduct is the fault of Stalinism, not believing that politics is inescapable. We're free to believe that in this country without fear of immediate persecution.

[sKorpia]

I enjoyed it and I never watched the Superfriends. :) I did recognize Jan and . . . the other one . . . just because they're so infamous. Or is it Van? Zan?

I did think they "turned evil" too quickly for no good reason ("Let's take down the Justice League! Just because!"), but overall I enjoyed the episode. And Maxwell Lord, yaaaay!

~LM~
Okay, after thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that it's because I had no idea who about 1/2 to 2/3 of the people introduced were, which is why that "Cool, they put that in there!" factor never kicked in. It seems either people immediately picked up on the Superfriends vibe or liked the introductions of Lord and Waller, both of which had no effect on ignorant me. Though I recognized the Wonder Twins right off the bat, I didn't even realize they were going for Asian on Wind Dragon until I heard his name. The slightly stronger accent change about halfway through confirmed it. I had no idea who he or the other 3 were meant to be send-ups of until I came to this board. So I guess I was just reacting to the extremely weak and shallow characterizations of them all. More time (like an hour-long episode) would have helped avoid this problem.

Sidenote: Mecha-inspired costumes do not equal "teh cool".

[paulie]

i just dont know, but jlu just doesnt work for me. there is just something missing. everything just seems so generic, bland, and empty.

Yeah, that's how I felt about this episode (I think I've enjoyed more of the other episodes though). But this one really was missing something. Is it because I never watched Superfriends? Is it because I have no idea who Lord or Waller are, so they ended up being generic plot devices to me?

Here's the thing that really gets me: I LOVED JL's "Legends" episode, even though I didn't exactly know who they were honoring. I just knew that old-time comics were a bit hokey. So why didn't I like "Ultimatum"? I guess the homage just didn't click with me.

I've tried to figure out what's missing, and I keep coming back to the 30-min format, but I don't think it's that anymore. Something else is missing, and I think it's because these story-arc episodes just aren't complete. "Fearful" and now "Ultimatum" just didn't build the tension/resolution like the classic "mini-movie" format of old. I never really cared one way or the other about the Ultimen, as harsh as that sounds.

[William C. Maune]

I think folks maybe putting too much emphasis on knowing or not knowing who Lord and Waller were from the comics. If the episode had instead used two differently named characters who looked completely different (thus no comics connection), I doubt those characters would have been introduced any differently. We may find out more about these characters over time, but I think for the current episode we don't need to know any more. Waller especially I'm guessing is supposed to remain more mysterious for the moment. People who have read the comics may know a little more about the comic incarnations of the two characters, but I don't think anyone who hasn't read the comics is missing anything they should be getting at this point.

[paulie]

I think folks maybe putting too much emphasis on knowing or not knowing who Lord and Waller were from the comics.

Yeah, you're right...things like that have never really bugged me before...I'm just trying to figure out why "Ultimatum" just didn't do it for me, that's all...

[Toddman]

TWO things:

1) Loved the Big Four sitting at the round table in the Watchtower. It was a straight visual nod to the same characters sitting in the same positions with the camera at the same angle in the original 1973 intro sequence to Super Friends.

2) Has anyone else mentioned the giant caged dog that was in the lab with the Ultimen's replacement clones? Could this be a clue to the true identity of "the big fish" behind the conspiracy? Was it a hunting dog from a certain apocalyptic planet that shall remain nameless? (just wild speculation on my part) or does it mean something else?

Toddman

[William C. Maune]

One might say this is also similar to the Cold War arms race, and the governments of the world are trying to keep up with the JLU.

The Cold War arms race is a great analogy. That's exactly the types of thoughts I was trying to get to in my post.

And now for some more conspiracy, or lack thereof, thoughts (I hope I'm not retreading what I said before, but here's some stuff I thought of as I was trying to get to sleep):

Just because we don't know who is pulling the strings does not make this a conspiracy. There has been many a good detective story where the main goal was to figure out who was behind the plot. A good mastermind covers his tracks and generally doesn't operate out in the open. A great example would be Mask of the Phantasm. Much of the movie was spent trying to figure out who was behind everything, however there was no conspiracy involved.

If this was a conspiracy, the episode likely would have ended with black helicopters swooping in to take away the Ultimen followed by suits explaining that it was all a weather balloon reflecting light from Venus. In stark contrast we had Waller defiantly stepping out in front of the League, looking them in the eye and challenging them. This wasn't a conspiracy, this was confrontation. It was Waller's way of saying "this is our turf and we'd appreciate it if your 'league' would stay the heck out of our business." She may have lost the battle for Longshadow, but she stood right up to Batman and called him out without flinching. Conspirators operate in the shadows, not on the public streets right in front of their potential adversaries.

The Question may call it a "conspiracy," but I don't see it (and I don't think "conspiracy" was actually mentioned at all in this episode. The government has been attacked by Superman, by the Justice Lords and by the Thanagarians (one of which had supposedly been a protector) and the government isn't about to stand by and get caught with its pants down again. As the League has expanded the gov't has also ramped up its efforts so that they will be ready when the time comes. Considering history within the show, its a fairly logical course for the government to take from their perspective and with Waller's actions at the end of Ultimatum, any worries of conspiracy by the league have been replaced by a clear message of "we have issues with your League and we are doing something about it."

[kaine23]

You could also say this this was the government "showing their poker hand" to the JLU so to speak. (I can't think of excatly the point and analogy right now, lol)

[Fone Bone]

JLU is worse than The Batman? Seriously? I mean this episode WAS weak but seriously, WORSE THAN THE BATMAN? I think The Big Dummy as an episode was better than this but I am not about to say as a series TB is better than JLU if only for the fact that we've never had episodes on JLU a horrible and wretched as The Big Chill or The Man Who Would Be Bat.

[Dark Night]

JLU is worse than The Batman? Seriously? I mean this episode WAS weak but seriously, WORSE THAN THE BATMAN? I think The Big Dummy as an episode was better than this but I am not about to say as a series TB is better than JLU if only for the fact that we've never had episodes on JLU a horrible and wretched as The Big Chill or The Man Who Would Be Bat.
Damn Straight....

[Knight]

Im afraid Im going to have to disagree with you William about this not being a conspiracy which by definition is a agreement to perform illegal wrongful or subversive acts. Something that I think we both can agree that the DCAU government has done.

Here are a few examples-

-Taken dna from Supergirl and cloned her and even lied to her about having done it.

-Attempted to murder Supergirl to protect their secrets

-Had General Hardcastle assassinated.

Those are just some of the things that we know that they have done and there is no telling what else they have been up to in the name of the greater good. But that still doesn't excuse their acts and that doesn't make them wrong. Im sure the conspirators have the best of intentions yet I also believe that they are very fearful of what can be considered a growing unchecked metahuman populous and they have good reason to be.

I agree they have to have steps in place to protect themselves but the way that they have gone about doing it is wrong in a moral sense.

[DerekPowers]

I've tried to figure out what's missing, and I keep coming back to the 30-min format, but I don't think it's that anymore. Something else is missing, and I think it's because these story-arc episodes just aren't complete. "Fearful" and now "Ultimatum" just didn't build the tension/resolution like the classic "mini-movie" format of old. I never really cared one way or the other about the Ultimen, as harsh as that sounds.


i think it IS in large part the 1/2 hour format. theres just no time to have character interactions or anything. everything about jlu is just so flat, and quick, and wham bam thank you ma'am, so to speak. the characters just seem to, i dont know, like forgetable or something. i mean, just compare jlu to any past dcau show, including JL, its just so, ah whatever, im just alittle frustrated. im not saying all JLU's problems stem from the 1/2 format, but imo, thats a big factor.

another is that the show has no focus or grounding. there are no 'main characters' so to speak. like, this is just the simplest example, if they had a watchtower scene w/ jonn every episode or something, or had the heros congrugating, or something to give all the episodes the same vibe, you know, then it could be better. but right now its just seems so hap-hazard and just like no episode is really related to the next, despite this story arc. plus, the characters are so interchangable at this point, that they dont even seem consistant episode to episode (ie, ww's anger in hawk and dove, or batman's singing in tlp, or all of kid's stuff). and they dont seem to keep the rules established in 'initiation', like, there's hardly ever any contact w/ the watchtower when there should be, like in ftmwhe.

but i TOTALLY agree that jlu DOES NOT have that mini-movie feel that was so great about all the past dcau shows. and i dont think its due to the story arch, cause bb had a great subplot to all of season one and still managed to retain the mini-movie feel.

and to Fone Bone and Dark Knight, i'm not saying 'the batman' is overall better, perse. i mean, as critical as i am of jlu, its still a continuation of jl season 2, which rocked, its still the same btas batman, and its still bruce timm design theory. so for those reasons i dont ever think i'll give up on the show completely, BUT honestly, i am saying i enjoy watching 'the batman' more than jlu. seriously. i like the batman and i thought some of the episodes were just quite good, like 'call of the cobblepot', or 'traction' and especially 'the big heat'. they HAVE that mini-movie feel, and it just seems more like all the 'i's' are dotted and all the 't's' are crossed, so to speak (sorry for these corny sayings, but its really the best way i can think of to describe how im feeling, which is why i need help in this critique). jlu just doesnt have that feeling. PLUS i really am starting to like tb's bruce wayne and alfred. THEY atleast have character development, where the villians may not. with jlu there isnt ANY character development! i mean, the ultimen had more development in that one lame episode than ANY of the jlu heros had all season. so i ask again, why did they even use the ultimen? why not fill those 5 spots in that ep with either NEW jlu heros or villians that actually get development, origins, etc? i just dont understand.

oh, and one more thing just to prove my point. think about it. 'the question', all the supporting heros in 'this little piggy', and practically all the heros in 'the return' didnt even have names! they like never even bothered to tell the audience what their names are. 'the question' was never once refered to as 'the question'! everything about the show just seems to low budget and bland and i dont know, its just not working for me. i mean, i like things ABOUT the show, but i cant say that its a quality show. the bar has most definately been lowered, and i can only hope that the creative is aware of these short-comings and re-tools the show for season 2, the way they did with jl.

if anything, i will say the one thing jlu has that keeps me watching is potential energy. there is SO MUCH potential for this show, with the creative team it's got and just for the ambitiousness of it, but so far i'm just disapointed by it, in all honesty.

but honestly, i think its so unfair and irresponsible, as dcau lovers, for everyone to always be bashing 'the batman', yet they let everything slide with 'jlu', even to the point where they'd actually rate this episode with 4 or even 5 stars.

anyway, thats my little rant. one think i did apprieciate about this ep, though, was the obvious shots taken at the current admistration running our country into the ground. the 'your either with us or against us' and the condoleza rice gal, i think those were cool and appropriate, and i hope they keep em coming because the whole idea of superheros and ideals really could become too 'patriotic' and stuff, and i'm glad they're seperating the JL from the government (ie, its not 'the justice league of america) and showing creating an interesting dynamic there, that i think is important to do in these times.

peace.

[Silly McGooses]

wow. I have to say that up to this point, i have HATED JLU, with maybe the exception of "this little piggy." Why so many characters cramped into 20 minutes? what's with this stupid underlying plotline? and i tell you...this episode wasn't the best thing on god's green earth either. but this whole subplot FINALLY got interesting and it could lead to some great episodes. the little moment when the government woman called batman 'rich boy' was great.

i have to agree, the half hour format simply isn't working. there's no time for anything. it sucks. if there's ten times more heroes, why SHRINK the running time? if anything, you should expand it.

[Knight]

I have to agree with some people who have pointed out the time restraints on what is such a big show now. It would be nice if the creators had a little more leniency in playing with the time where they could make some eps 2 parters depending on the subject matter while leaving the others at the 30 minutes.

Some eps would certainly benefit by being longer and the character development on the show could at the same time be further expanded.

Imagine a show like Star Trek having to do its whole thing in 30 mins.

[paulie]

OK, I think for now I've come to the conclusion that I'm just not used to watching a serial-type DCAU show...the structure of the story-arc episodes is just different and they aren't going to pay off until the "big ending", whatever that may be. But now I'm really, really intrigued as to what's going to happen, so in that sense, the show's doing just fine! :)

I would be lying, though, if I didn't say that I'm apprehensive about it. Lots of opportunities for confusing, convoluted plots and random characters...but if anyone can pull it off, it's this group of producers...no reason to expect anything but the best ;)

One final note about the Lord/Waller thing: the reason I brought it up is simply because "generic millionaire guy" and "generic government conspirator" don't have the same ooomph as they would if I knew them from elsewhere...I don't feel left out of the Continuity Club, and I'm glad that people got a kick out of seeing those 2...it's cool that the producers do spend time and effort to add touches like that...I was just expressing that they didn't do anything for ME, that's all...

OK, that horse is now beaten to death heh heh

[tedcassidy]

I like the idea of paying tribute to characters that people remember from their childhood. I was never a big fan of the WonderTwins, but still think it was good to re-visit these Superfriends characters, and I think the re-tooled versions of WonderTwins, Samurai, Black Vulcan, and Apache Chief in this episode was a good way to handle that..... I would also love it if Bruce Timm and company would pay tribute to the 1960's Hanna Barbera heroes the Galaxy Trio by bringing them into a few episodes, but keeping their Alex Toth designs basically intact. I think these characters if allowed to function at their full potential would be extremely interesting interacting with the JLU. Meteor Man is an extremely powerful character, and could hold his own against just about anyone, if handled properly. I think it would be a great tribute to bring Galaxy Trio, Herculoids, Space Ghost, Mightor, etc. into some episodes or episode of JLU........

[lostrune]

1. Batman: Eat my dust, Diana! My ultra-latest jet is bigger than yours!" :D

2. Since when did Aquaman join the JLU?! :eek:

3. Geez, those Ultimen Wonder Twins brother and sister both sound like girly-men [/Governator]. :p

4. Wow, boyscout Superman calling the speech "corny" was like pot-kettle-black. :sweat:

5. Heheh, Loooooooooong-Shadow, I'm sure. ;)
And is that a May-December romance with Diana? :anime:

6. Whoa, Batman was on a roll! He just zinged 2 butches in 1 ep!
Batman to Warrior Princess (Amanda Waller?): "Mine are bigger than yours." :)

6b. But Warrior Princess zinged the "rich boy" back! Seems somebody even Batman shouldn't mess with! :ack:

7. Can't wait for the JLU vs. Ultimen rematch, now that the government has a way to control the rogue state of JL. :cool:

[Knight]

7. Can't wait for the JLU vs. Ultimen rematch, now that the government has a way to control the rogue state of JL. :cool:Well I would say the whole Ultimen project is done. You would have to think that the JL will confront the new batch and tell the that they are indeed clones with false memories. That sent them over the edge last time and caused them to go rouge. But who knows maybe next time around they will implant a means for controlling them better and it wont matter.

That aside The League is too aware of the governments activities now for them to be affective with a Ultimen team. The League surly wont trust them next time around and will be very suspicious.

[Style]

I've been thinking, I can't clearly see a reason why this episode was called "Ultimateum." I don't remember anyone delivering a clear, significant ultimateum. The Government didn't say to the JLU "Leave this alone or we'll blow your club house out of the sky with a cruise missile." Nor did the JLU say to the government "You tell us what the hell is going on or we're gonna to occupy the governments of the world, Justice Lords-style and see for ourselves." The government lady delivered a veiled threat, but there was no clear Ultimateum in the equation.

[Fone Bone]

i think it IS in large part the 1/2 hour format. theres just no time to have character interactions or anything. everything about jlu is just so flat, and quick, and wham bam thank you ma'am, so to speak. the characters just seem to, i dont know, like forgetable or something. i mean, just compare jlu to any past dcau show, including JL, its just so, ah whatever, im just alittle frustrated. im not saying all JLU's problems stem from the 1/2 format, but imo, thats a big factor.

another is that the show has no focus or grounding. there are no 'main characters' so to speak. like, this is just the simplest example, if they had a watchtower scene w/ jonn every episode or something, or had the heros congrugating, or something to give all the episodes the same vibe, you know, then it could be better. but right now its just seems so hap-hazard and just like no episode isnt really related to the next, despite this story arc. plus, the characters are so interchangable at this point, that they dont even seem consistant episode to episode (ie, ww's anger in hawk and dove, or batman's singing in tlp, or all of kid's stuff). and they dont seem to keep the rules established in 'initiation', like, there's hardly ever any contact w/ the watchtower when there should be, like in ftmwhe.

but i TOTALLY agree that jlu DOES NOT have that mini-movie feel that was so great about all the past dcau shows. and i dont think its due to the story arch, cause bb had a great subplot to all of season one and still managed to retain the mini-movie feel.

and to Fone Bone and Dark Knight, i'm not saying 'the batman' is overall better, perse. i mean, as critical as i am of jlu, its still a continuation of jl season 2, which rocked, its still the same btas batman, and its still bruce timm design theory. so for those reasons i dont ever think i'll give up on the show completely, BUT honestly, i am saying i enjoy watching 'the batman' more than jlu. seriously. i like the batman and i thought some of the episodes were just quite good, like 'call of the cobblepot', or 'traction' and especially 'the big heat'. they HAVE that mini-movie feel, and it just seems more like all the 'i's' are dotted and all the 't's' are crossed, so to speak (sorry for these corny sayings, but its really the best way i can think of to describe how im feeling, which is why i need help in this critique). jlu just doesnt have that feeling. PLUS i really am starting to like tb's bruce wayne and alfred. THEY atleast have character development, where the villians may not. with jlu there isnt ANY character development! i mean, the ultimen had more development in that one lame episode than ANY of the jlu heros had all season. so i ask again, why did they even use the ultimen? why not fill those 5 spots in that ep with either NEW jlu heros or villians that actually get development, origins, etc? i just dont understand.

oh, and one more thing just to prove my point. think about it. 'the question', all the supporting heros in 'this little piggy', and practically all the heros in 'the return' didnt even have names! they like never even bothered to tell the audience what their names are. 'the question' was never once refered to as 'the question'! everything about the show just seems to low budget and bland and i dont know, its just not working for me. i mean, i like things ABOUT the show, but i cant say that its a quality show. the bar has most definately been lowered, and i can only hope that the creative is aware of these short-comings and re-tools the show for season 2, the way they did with jl.

if anything, i will say the one thing jlu has that keeps me watching is potential energy. there is SO MUCH potential for this show, with the creative team it's got and just for the ambitiousness of it, but so far i'm just disapointed by it, in all honesty.

but honestly, i think its so unfair and irresponsible, as dcau lovers, for everyone to always be bashing 'the batman', yet they let everything slide with 'jlu', even to the point where they'd actually rate this episode with 4 or even 5 stars.

anyway, thats my little rant. one think i did apprieciate about this ep, though, was the obvious shots taken at the current admistration running our country into the ground. the 'your either with us or against us' and the condoleza rice gal, i think those were cool and appropriate, and i hope they keep em coming because the whole idea of superheros and ideals really could become too 'patriotic' and stuff, and i'm glad they're seperating the JL from the government (ie, its not 'the justice league of america) and showing creating an interesting dynamic there, that i think is important to do in these times.

peace.One thing: The Question WAS referred to by name by J'onn in the Watchtower.

[Yojimbo]

Yep, the one reference to Question was there when J'onn called on his intercomm in the Wathctower, he said "Question." I think it was after the trio left Hardcastle's cabin and Supergirl wakes up telling GA that she knows Hardcastle was killed.

And yes, it does seem unfair that all those nonspeaking cameos aren't named in the episodes but if this arc is analogous to the Cold War, then I'd say the majority of people on tz wouldn't know many of the names of figures in the Cold War besides big names like Johnson, Nixon, Stalin like in the JLU people only know Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman. But all you have to do is do your research, it's a whole lot easier to do in the Internet Age.

And at times, I do miss the theatric quality that Batman the Animated Series had, but the themes of Batman and Justice League are separate and different. The use of dark deco and more orchestratic music set the dark mood of the series that explored a lot of psychological themes like lost memories, fear, loss, outcast while JL focuses more on social cohesions, like why do all these people come together for if they barely know each other? Is it really for helping save the world and causing positive social change? When you analyze social change, you look into the factors and consequences so the series explores psychology but also other social issues like politics, family. The main complaint is that there is little character development, but in terms of literature like Shakespeare or Frankenstein, the characters all functioned in a way that they portrayed different aspects of the same person so in a way the entire League is one person metaphorically and each member represents a different persona, compassion, darkness, chauvanistic, paranoid, frivolity etc.
Toddman, that dog looked like the ones from Apokolips but the first image that came to mind was the Batman Beyond episode "Ace in the Hole" when McGinnis goes to get Ace back from his former owner and finds out he's been doing genetic experiments to make the fighting dogs larger and meaner.

[PaQ]

I finally got to see the episode on tape yesterday, and I thought it was an interesting episode. The Ultimen were certainly an interesting bunch, also seemed that Wonder Woman took a liking to Long Shadow. It's been interesting to see how the government has been seemingly involved with the project, and who knows what else they're working on. Dr. Hamilton.. hard to see him involved with these things.. The only thing I had a problem with was that woman's "rich boy" comment to Batman.. I mean c'mon, let's be realistic, I doubt anyone can really figure out who he is unless he let them. :shrug:

"Ultimatum" gets a B-.

[Allen CARR]

Hawkgirl figured out Bats identity, Superman used his powers to figure it out. Wonderwoman figured it out. Ras al ghoul did, he even new how to get into the Batcave. So im pretty sure, the U.S. goverment can to :D

[thearchduke]

With the talk of whether or not the government is engaging in a true conspiracy (which I am leaning towards to on the strength of what was shown in Fearful Symmetry-men jumping out of helicopters out of the blue is never a good thing), I'm wondering what direction the government (and the show) is going with this story line.

The Ultimen weren't used to make superheroes look bad, which is what I'd use them for if I was trying to get rid of the JL. Turning public opinion against superheroes would be a great way to justify any plan against them.

Instead, the Ultimen were essentially a marketing device, promoting superheroes, and they didn't even bad mouth the JL while doing their thing.

So what was the point of the Ultimen in the greater context of the "government conspiracy"? They were friendly with the League, garnered greater public support (if the merchandising checks are anything to go by) for superheroes in general, and in the end were volatile and could not be controlled by Lord, the "government agent".

It sort of seems that even the government doesn't have a definite plan using clones against the league: they're going hard against (Galatea) and soft against (Ultimen) and are really feeling out what the League is capable of.


And I know exactly what Longshadow and WW were doing underneath that tree: brushing each other's hair :D

[StClair]

When Dark Heart airs this/next week, you'll see another reason why the government(s) might want some kind of hedge against the League's power.

"And we're going to be talking about that, someday. Believe me. Ma'am."


So, why is it okay for the League to have a giant gun in orbit, but not Vandal Savage?

[bat313]

Was anyone else wondering where the clone of Supergirl was in all this? And why wasn't Superman upset to hear that Dr Hamilton was involved? Interesting.....

[Knight]

The Ultimen weren't used to make superheroes look bad, which is what I'd use them for if I was trying to get rid of the JL. Turning public opinion against superheroes would be a great way to justify any plan against them. Good point. The Ultimen for the most part were generally good. I think they were designed to be more of a safety net. A team under the governments control that was totally separate from the Justice League. A group of superhuman individuals that if the League somehow went bad would be at their disposal to help defined against them. I think that's the governments main concern,the possibility that the JL may one day get out of control. Batman had this same concern in the comics and it caused him to design Justice League countermeasures. That's basically what the government seems to be doing at this point. Making sure that they are ready.

You also have to look at The League themselves. They really do whatever they want whenever they want. Realistically they get away with more than the average citizen (which basically is what most of them are) would be allowed to. Although they do it for good reasons they sometimes do march into other countries uninvited or like in this episode straight up tell the government that they cant do something (in this case taking Longshadow who for all intents and purposes belonged to them). When the JL puts their foot down who can really stop them? That's what the conspirators fear because if the JL so desired they could easily take over the whole planet.



Was anyone else wondering where the clone of Supergirl was in all this? And why wasn't Superman upset to hear that Dr Hamilton was involved? Interesting.....
The League doesnt know Hamilton is involved they never saw him.

[JohnStewart-GL]

When Dark Heart airs this/next week, you'll see another reason why the government(s) might want some kind of hedge against the League's power.

"And we're going to be talking about that, someday. Believe me. Ma'am."


So, why is it okay for the League to have a giant gun in orbit, but not Vandal Savage?

hmmm thas a really good question i cant wait for that ep now.

[maxnugget]

The government's concerns are actually summed up nicely by Batman:

"Mine are bigger than yours"

That's exactly the problem, so far as the government, and probably the civilian population, is concerned.

With regard to conspiracy vs. no conspiracy, there are good arguments for either path. On one hand, Waller did publicly confront the League, not very secrecy-ish. On the other hand, she was careful not to reveal information unnecessarily, she was attempting to repossess products of the government conspiracy that might reveal secret information (i.e. letting the League keep one of their clones), and she also protected other classified information, namely the fact that Professor Hamilton is working with them. No doubt the government is aware that it's important to keep Superman and the League from knowing about Hamiltion's involvement. There was plenty going on that was kept from being transparent to the JL.

Also, as someone else here pointed out, it IS pretty conspiratorial to do things like assassinate General Hardcastle, attempt to kill Supergirl, have top-secret "training grounds" and blow them up to prevent their widespread discovery, have a Supergirl clone, made from stolen DNA by a government operative (Hamilton), use her to assassinate threats to the conspiracy, and attempt to blow her sky high rather than allow the league to defeat and capture her. And there's plety of further indicators from Fearful Symmetry and this episode...

There definitely is some sort of conspiracy going on, regardless of how you define the word. But conspiracy or not, the government/human population clearly is concerned and has reason to be concerned, and that's definitely a driving component of this story arc.

It's also a possibility, too, that you have both going on simultaneously. For example, the government/military as a whole might have more-public beef with the League, while a smaller faction of super-duper-top-secret individuals inside the government are hatching this more secretive arms-race conspiracy with the League.

[Maxie Zeus]

The US would have no business staging that intervention since it's not their country. But the JLU is presumably like the UN or Red Cross, a world-wide organization with no particular allegiance to one country.

And this answers my point how? Remember the thread of discussion:

Me: Is it really clear that JL are acting like "good guys" and not arrogant busybodies? You: Sure. They've never violated another nation's sovereignty. Me: But they have. In "Initiation." You: Oh, but that was okay.

So bad things are okay if only they're done by the "right" people?

Alright, let's take it more slowly.

Me: The Justice League has shown itself both willing and capable of horning in on places where it has been explicitly told to keep the hell out. Isn't this scary in exactly the same way that you find the Bush Administration scary?

You: No, because the Justice League isn't a government.

Me: And this is supposed to make us feel better? I point out that they're armed and dangerous; you rush to add that, yeah, and they are also aloof from and unconstrained by any and all laws. This is supposed to reassure me?

You: They're like the Red Cross. They're doing good, and people will probably thank them for it afterwards.

Me: But isn't this exactly what people say about the US under Bush? That it's a rampaging cowboy that ignores international law because it thinks it's doing the Lord's work and that people will be grateful afterward? And, BTW, how is Superman's "proactive" different from George W. Bush's "pre-emptive"?

The Justice League, I note, is acting in ways and circumstances that may cause people of conscience and good to legitimately worry. It also contains members who have caused terrible damage when they have gone "rogue." It is therefore is not clear this "conspiracy" is doing anything untoward in preparing possible countermeasures against the League or that the League would be justified in moving against them.

Nor can you argue that the League is good and the conspiracy evil by trying to correlate it to current events. Because who correlates with whom? You say, "The League is not the Bush Administration, because the Bush Administration is bad." But whether you like it or not, many people disagree with you and (rightly or wrongly) regard Bush policies as exactly as justified and consciounable as the League's actions in "Initiation." (They would use your very arguments about "Initiation" to justify Iraq.) And whether you like it or not, many people may disagree without you and (rightly or wrongly) regard the League's actions in "Initiation" as being as meddlesome, arrogant and unwarranted as Bush policies. (They would use your arguments about Bush to condemn "Initiation.")

You are starting with conclusions about the League and the real world, and then you are using those conclusions to make a correlation. That is question begging. It is best to leave the real world aside and to take the events of JLU on their own terms. And I am not made happy when I look at them.


I expected a more intelligent response from you. Yes, politics is inseparable from art: how could it be separate from the systems we choose to run our lives and our problems with them? And ideology, ( to quote merriam-webster, "a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture, also the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program") lies within every work produced within a human society structured around ideologies and where ideologies clash. That doesn't mean that every work has a clear set of political instructions within it (JL does not say "We hate the current administration--on the other hand, the fact that it obviously doesn't promote or look favorably on Communism is clear and an obvious part of its ideology), only that every work buys, in varying extents, into a certain ideology or set of idoelogies. Sometimes the extent of that is foregrounded, and sometimes not (we can this happening in the recent debate over the ideology of The Incredibles). It's another matter to seek out and crush works for displaying what one views as negative ideologies. Saying that every work has an ideology (something most top-rank humanities professors in this country would agree to) may have encouraged Stalinist persecution of artists, but that is hardly the only consequence imaginable. Stalinist conduct is the fault of Stalinism, not believing that politics is inescapable. We're free to believe that in this country without fear of immediate persecution.

I am quite aware of what most top-rank humanities professors in this country would agree to. I know that you know my background. So don't accuse me of being "unintelligent" in my response--rather, accuse me of being allusive in my response (in the hope of cutting off an unfruitful debate) instead of being discursive.

But, you prefer the latter, so ...

There are (simplifying a great deal) two arguments that can be advanced to support the claim that all art contains an ideology and has a political dimension.

1. If you look at a work of art, you can always discover some political dimension or other.

This is a very silly argument. It depends upon the "squinch your eyes and tell us what you see" method of aesthetic analysis. (I actually have no objection to this method; I use it a lot myself, because the results can be very entertaining--but I also don't take it or its results very seriously.) But it's a lousy metaphysical basis for aesthetics. Just because a cloud looks like a whale or a weasel does not mean that it is a whale or a weasel, and saying that a work of art looks like it has a political tinge does not mean that it does have such a tinge.

The better argument has a highly sophisticated theoretical cast:

2. The world is organized under metaphysical and scientific categories; such categories, in turn, are organized by language; and language, in its turn, is a social practice reflecting social organizations and habits. Politics is the practice of organizing and regulating social behavior. Therefore, the metaphysical and scientific attributes of the world ultimately rest on a political foundation. Aesthetic objects are no exception.

To cash this out via an example: The very words "justice" and "league" are obviously fraught with political import, as "justice" is plainly a political concept, and a "league" (an alliance or cooperative organization) is a political entity. The acts that are portrayed by the series Justice League Unlimited as "just," therefore, derive that status not from an independent metaphysical base but from the assumptions that have been inculcated and conditioned into the producers by the social groups and networks in which they grew up. Thus, the series is a reflection of certain ideologies that are contemporaneously present in society.

Another, more radical example: Peanuts, you will note, does not contain any homosexual characters. This is not the result of a free artistic choice on the part of Charles Shultz, but is instead a reflection of certain dominant political strains in the United States. The present political culture does not recognize the existence of "gay children" as a possible category--for whatever reason, it does not project a sexual identity onto a person until that person's adolescence and so it treats the category "gay child" as an oxymoron. Thus, by not making Charlie Brown, Linus, Lucy or any of the other characters explicitly homosexual, Peanuts recapitulates the same sexual politics that outlaws child pornography and introduces such criminal categories as "statutory rape."

You can have this kind of fun with anything, and it is via such exercises that academic reputations are made.

But, in fact, it is not true that "most top-rank humanities professors" would agree to this kind of thing; this kind of thing is actually (to use the fashionable phrase) "highly contested," on both theoretical and practical grounds.

As a practical matter, many people who were initially attracted to this kind of literary theory have since become disillusioned with it. It seems radical and charming and ingenious at first, but once you see how it's done it begins to look like a parlor trick. "Oh Stanley, do that thing again where you show that Scooby Doo is a satire on Byzantine court ritual at the time of Michael Calaphates!"

Theoretical: The argument depends upon premises that are highly dubious. Is reality organized by language, or is language organized to reflect reality? Does a dog have legs because we decided to call them "legs," or did we apply the label "legs" to things that just are that way? The former is definitely a minority opinion, though it has been a fashionable one. It is a minority opinion because few people can bring themselves swallow all of its consequences: that, for instance, if the Nazis had won World War II, then killing Jews and homosexuals would be called "good" and therefore would be good.

The argument also has a very broad definition of "political"--any sort of social relationship is "political" by defintion. Thus, the next time you smile at someone you are being political because you are (however briefly) establishing a relationship with that person. This strikes many people as stretching the word "political" to the point that it becomes empty of meaning. For what word shall we then use to describe tax policies? "Super-duper-political"?

Finally, the argument is ultimately a form of metaphysical relativism, and metaphysical relativism has never had a good reputation because it has always been very easy to show that it rests upon an unstable foundation. The claim is that truth depends upon opinion: If enough people act as if something is true, then that something is true (because reality is created by linguistic practices and habits). And, in parallel, if enough people act as if something is false, then that something is false. But what if enough people act as if this theory (that language creates reality) is false? Then, the theory says, it is false -- opinion creates reality, remember? Thus, if the theory is true but unpopular, it is false. Those who retain some respect for logic are bothered by this response, for it is an example of a refutation by reductio: If you can show that the truth of a theory implies its falsity, then you have shown that the theory is, simply and brutally, false.

There are arguments that can be made in response to this, and there are counterarguments against those. But metaphysical relativism (from Protagoras through Stanley Fish) remains in any event as a Tinker Bell philosophy: You will believe it is true only if clap your hands and wish hard enough. Psychologically, most people who have thought it through have a hard time mustering that kind of faith.

But some people do believe it; I've known some, and many of them are very unpleasant to be around. They are bossy, intrusive, mostly humorless, often hectoring, and believe that everyone else's business is also their own. (Naturally; they think that everything is political, and they are politically obsessed, so they have no scruple about being aggressive busybodies.) It is the imperial urge--the urge to invade, dominate, control and organize--and it is not restricted to generals and bureaucrats, and it does not reach its ugliest form under them. Such-like are apt merely to be authoritarian, to insist upon an oppressive internal and external peace that leaves territories, populations and social institutions intact and unchanged so long as they are quiescent.

But in its most complete manifestation, the imperial urge is properly called totalitarian: it is the urge to bring the totality of society, of life, and of everything that it contains within the scope of political observance, regulation and control. Many religions are totalitarian because they are theocratic in theory and insist that God is concerned with every aspect of thought and behavior. But you don't need a theology to get something like this. You only need a theory, and the theory that everything is political in nature because it is constructed out of social and political relations is just that sort of theory. And Stalinism was not a perversion of the theory but a particularly pure and ruthless expression of it; and 1984 a portrait of a society even more deeply in its grip.

If you believe that everything is political, you will be prepared to "interrogate" (in the litcrit sense) and regulate anything, and you will be your own scruples. You will never be able to say "This is beyond politics and so I won't touch it." At best, you will only say "This is part of politics, but I won't bother about it. At least for the moment. At least, not until I change my mind." And the scruple of the despot who believes in no restraint is no one's idea of a guarantee. Especially when most despots (including "most top-rank humanities professors") have little in the way of scruple to begin with. After all, they have given themselves a license to horn in on anything.

The totalitarian concept is best contrasted with the "liberal" concept--so called not because it is "left wing" or squishy or compassionate, but because it believes in the existence of areas and behaviors that should be liberated--autonomous--from political control. Nor does liberalism merely claim that these areas ought to be exempt from political interference. In its metaphysical form, liberalism claims that these areas are conceptually autonomous. Mathematics is an example. The argument that all art is political can be easily adapted to show that all mathematics is political and that if enough people agree that 2+2=5, then in fact 2+2=5. But the liberal position is that mathematics is conceptually autonomous--no one can make 2+2=5, because mathematical facts cannot be changed by diktat. As with mathematics, so with other areas, including art, many liberals would say. No matter what the Party thinks of Picasso, or Rossini, Dickens, or Chuck Jones, they cannot make them have a political tinge. They can only force people to pretend that they do--and this is to cause people to be dishonest.

Certainly some art is political. But what makes a work of art "political" does not depend upon the theory that the totalitarian uses.

When you say that "all art is political" you are announcing a dictatorship, and the only question is whether it will be a relatively tolerant and standoffish dictatorship or an intrusive and intolerant one. Most people who say things like this don't realize the import of what they are saying because they don't know history and don't know philosophy and don't know where this kind of thing leads. It's just a stance, a way of advertising one's sensitivity by saying that one takes politics very seriously. But it's dangerous to make sweeping generalizations. What might you unintentionally knock over?

[Allen CARR]

Do You guys think That after "better world" that Waller woman and the goverment might have taken Doomsday, and might be expermenting on him?and maybe one day be compelled to let him loose on the League or evn Superman, if you know what im reffering to?










DOOMSDAY IS COMEINGhttp://wf.toonzone.net/WF/justiceleague/episodes/BetterWorld/Part1/28.jpg

[Conekiller]

thanks for that totally un-blocked spoiler:rolleyes:

[Knight]

Well that's actually a picture of you know who from A Better World and not a upcoming ep. But Allen shouldn't have stated his coming as if it was a fact like he did.

[Allen CARR]

sorry about that then.

[Fone Bone]

For the record Maxie, Marcy and Peppermint Patty are gay. (Although because of her interest in Chuck Patty may be bisexual.)

[bat313]

The League doesnt know Hamilton is involved they never saw him.

But...... Longshadow does. With his super hearing i know he heard the word Dr. Hamilton. These are answers i think Batman will be finding out first. We need another good detective story.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

I wonder If Clark still works for Daily Planet? :sad:

[Knight]

But...... Longshadow does. With his super hearing i know he heard the word Dr. Hamilton. These are answers i think Batman will be finding out first. We need another good detective story.I would have to rewatch the ep but im not sure if Hamilton was even mentioned by name.

As far as Batman ,he was strictly told not to look into what is going on. Now will Batman take that threat and just roll over and do nothing or will he chance exposure.

There isnt much that will keep Batman from doing what he feels has to be done but he does have those around him whose lives would also be destroyed if people knew Bruce Wayne and Batman were one. He may back down but that is very hard to picture.

[Johnny Cakes]

I wonder If Clark still works for Daily Planet? :sad:
He still worked there at the beginning of Starcrossed, but so much has changed since then, who knows?

[Allen CARR]

i am starting to wonder myself, he spends more time as superman, i wonder if he has abondon the enitre Clark kent thing all together.

[DerekPowers]

well, i wonder if we'll ever see any league memebers out of costume again. perhaps not, since the change in format may not permit it... :rolleyes:


anyway, speaking of superman, i want to know why he always has to be the whimp of the group? serously, why? he improved in season 2, and now he's back to his old weak self. think about it, TWICE in this episode superman got beat. first by the magma monsters, second by wind dragon at the end. cant the writers think of better solutions? here's one, instead of it having been SUPERMAN who was being beat by having the air sucked out of him by wind dragon, why not make it have been long shadow who, trying to defend ww or something, feels the wrath of wind dragon, then SUPERMAN (remember, he's supose to be super :shrug: ) saves long shadow by appealing to wind dragon, or even using a power to beat him. wouldnt that make more sense? it follows the same sort of turn of events, plus superman doesnt wind up looking like a wuss.

one of the nice things i noticed about this ep was batman. batman never fails to please (except when he's singing or riding some cheesy red flying device, sheesh). he most definately is the leader of the JLU, which is cool. notice how he stepped up to the government lady, and said MINE are bigger than your's. he's still the man.

btw, could anyone possibly post pics of the superfriends characters these were modeled after? ive only seen a few sf eps, so i dont really know any except the wonder twins and apache cheif. itd be nice to see shots to compare them. thanks. peace.

[Duke]

anyway, speaking of superman, i want to know why he always has to be the whimp of the group? serously, why? he improved in season 2, and now he's back to his old weak self. think about it, TWICE in this episode superman got beat. first by the magma monsters, second by wind dragon at the end.
Supes wasn't really beaten. He got trapped in the rock, then WindDragon came in and blew everything away. Supes could've gotten out earlier (as shown when he breaks through his rock cage rather easily), but was watching WindDragon (probably a little angry that WD stole his thunder) beat the magma team up.

[Allen CARR]

well, either way you look at it, Bruce timm and company can't write superman like they use to. Its easy wit Batman, cause hes only human. i mean they write superman like an idiot, even though hes a journalist who traveled the world. i mean in this episode, the others took care of the ultimen, while superman tries to talk to a man whos trying to kill him. it would of made more sense, if superman just took down windDragon, then tried ot talk to him.

[EJill34]

well, i wonder if we'll ever see any league memebers out of costume again. perhaps not, since the change in format may not permit it... :rolleyes:How quickly we forget past episodes...

3. "Hawk and Dove" - Wonder Woman, Hawk and Dove are all shown out of costume.

4. "Fearful Symmetry" - Green Arrow, Supergirl, The Question

7. "The Return" Hawkgirl (albeit briefly)

11. "Wake the Dead" - Green Lantern (John Stewart), Vixen, Hawkgirl

Here are some based on the previews at the end of upcoming episodes:
12. "The Once and Future Thing, Part 1" - Batman, Green Lantern (John Stewart), Wonder Woman at least.

14. "The Cat and the Canary" - Green Arrow and Black Canary, at least.

[lostrune]

i am starting to wonder myself, he spends more time as superman, i wonder if he has abondon the enitre Clark kent thing all together.
That's why they created the JLU. With more heroes to hog the eps, it leaves Superman more time to be Clark.

[Allen CARR]

in Batman beyond, he had abondon the Clark kent identity if you remeber.eitherway, he still spends more time as superman alot more time.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

I have to agree with some people who have pointed out the time restraints on what is such a big show now. It would be nice if the creators had a little more leniency in playing with the time where they could make some eps 2 parters depending on the subject matter while leaving the others at the 30 minutes.

Some eps would certainly benefit by being longer and the character development on the show could at the same time be further expanded.

Imagine a show like Star Trek having to do its whole thing in 30 mins.


If somebody already mentioned this, I apologize, but Star Trek The Animated Series was great...it was well done...and it was well done in a 30 minute format. In fact, it's one of the best cartoons there ever was. However, I kind of aggree with you about Justice League...some episodes just don't work too well in this format.




2. Since when did Aquaman join the JLU?! images/smilies/eek.gif
Since before the beginning of the season apparently. He was already a member in "Initiation," so I'm assuming he's been a member for at least several months now. At least in our time.


I've been thinking, I can't clearly see a reason why this episode was called "Ultimateum." I don't remember anyone delivering a clear, significant ultimateum. The Government didn't say to the JLU "Leave this alone or we'll blow your club house out of the sky with a cruise missile." Nor did the JLU say to the government "You tell us what the hell is going on or we're gonna to occupy the governments of the world, Justice Lords-style and see for ourselves." The government lady delivered a veiled threat, but there was no clear Ultimateum in the equation. The title was word play. "Ultimatum," "Ultimen." You understand? It was a play on phrase.


And yes, it does seem unfair that all those nonspeaking cameos aren't named in the episodes but if this arc is analogous to the Cold War, then I'd say the majority of people on tz wouldn't know many of the names of figures in the Cold War besides big names like Johnson, Nixon, Stalin like in the JLU people only know Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman. But all you have to do is do your research, it's a whole lot easier to do in the Internet Age. All of the characters are named. Whether all of their names were mentioned on the show or not, I'm not sure, but a lot of the heroes names on "The Return" was mentioned. A lot of you people might not know who Starman is, but he is one of the members in the League. He's one that was never refered to by name, but he's positively in the League and he positively has a name. In fact, he's the Prince what's his name Starman. I can't think of his name. But that's who he is. All of the characters have names. Wheather we're told what they are or not...I guess the majority of viewers don't realise that. Oh well...give it time...maybe a lot of the "red shirt" characters will shine someday.

That reminds me, did anybody ever complain when the red shirts on Star Trek didn't get enough development? Be honest. Of course no one cared. I see it as a similar situation.


I finally got to see the episode on tape yesterday, and I thought it was an interesting episode. The Ultimen were certainly an interesting bunch, also seemed that Wonder Woman took a liking to Long Shadow. It's been interesting to see how the government has been seemingly involved with the project, and who knows what else they're working on. Dr. Hamilton.. hard to see him involved with these things.. The only thing I had a problem with was that woman's "rich boy" comment to Batman.. I mean c'mon, let's be realistic, I doubt anyone can really figure out who he is unless he let them. :shrug:

"Ultimatum" gets a B-. I'd have to agree with what Allen CARR said. All the government would really have to do is follow him around. Even Batman doesn't have ESP, maybe almost...but not quite. Also, they could have taken a picture of him unknown to him and compared his facial structure (And his chin especially) to a picture of Bruce Wayne.


With the talk of whether or not the government is engaging in a true conspiracy (which I am leaning towards to on the strength of what was shown in Fearful Symmetry-men jumping out of helicopters out of the blue is never a good thing), I'm wondering what direction the government (and the show) is going with this story line.

The Ultimen weren't used to make superheroes look bad, which is what I'd use them for if I was trying to get rid of the JL. Turning public opinion against superheroes would be a great way to justify any plan against them.

Instead, the Ultimen were essentially a marketing device, promoting superheroes, and they didn't even bad mouth the JL while doing their thing.

So what was the point of the Ultimen in the greater context of the "government conspiracy"? They were friendly with the League, garnered greater public support (if the merchandising checks are anything to go by) for superheroes in general, and in the end were volatile and could not be controlled by Lord, the "government agent".

It sort of seems that even the government doesn't have a definite plan using clones against the league: they're going hard against (Galatea) and soft against (Ultimen) and are really feeling out what the League is capable of. I think the whole point of the Ultimen was to have them be under "Governmental Control." Unlike the JLA, the Ultimen work for the government. I know the type of character Amanda Waller is in the comics, so you'll find out eventually, I think I know what's coming. (Not saying I know the "Big End." But I know what to expect sooner than that) Waller is the head of Task Force X. The Ultimen were likely part of it. In the comics, the Suicide Squad was also part of it. They send super powered agents (not nessasarilly heroes) out to do millitary stuff. Anyway, I'll shut up now.


But...... Longshadow does. With his super hearing i know he heard the word Dr. Hamilton. These are answers i think Batman will be finding out first. We need another good detective story. That doesn't mean Long Shadow told everybody yet. He might eventually though, especially now that he's in the League.

Oh, and for all of you people that seem to think that the Justice Leaguer's have "no secret identity," just because we don't see it, doesn't mean that their whole life is being a superhero...that's just silly. Every second and every hour of their lives are not coronicled...so how can you just assume they have no life outside of being a superhero? Allen CARR, I seriously doubt Superman spends more time as a superhero than as Clark Kent. Only a fraction of his life is documented by this show...Who is Superman? He's Clark Kent. Clark Kent isn't Superman. It's the other way around. Superman is just a disquise he uses so that he can still lead a normal life. I refuse to beleive that he spends more time as Superman than as Clark Kent. It's just completly obsurd. And the show never implied that was the case anyway.

[thearchduke]

If the Ultimen had defects, what does that mean for Supergirl's clone? Did they blow her up because she was expendable because she was going to expire anyway?

I'm thinking that if the government was having trouble with their clones they weren't going to blow one up that turned out successful.

[Toddman]

in Batman beyond, he had abondon the Clark kent identity if you remeber.
Why do you think that? I'm pretty sure such a fact was never mentioned in BB's "The Call."

Toddman

[Allen CARR]

based on what i saw, there would be no more need to become clark again.

[Knight]

If somebody already mentioned this, I apologize, but Star Trek The Animated Series was great...it was well done...and it was well done in a 30 minute format. In fact, it's one of the best cartoons there ever was. However, I kind of aggree with you about Justice League...some episodes just don't work too well in this format.
I was actually talking about the live Star Trek show (had totally forgot about the animated series even though I have seen).


Why do you think that? I'm pretty sure such a fact was never mentioned in BB's "The Call."
based on what i saw, there would be no more need to become clark again.
Although they NEVER say Superman doesnt use his Clark Kent identity.There is possibly a reason why he wouldnt...his age.

Superman should look almost as old as Bruce, that is if he were normal. The fact that he ages slowly would eventually come into play for his secret identity making it harder for him to pass himself off as normal. That is something that in the future could cause him to give up his civilian disguise. But who knows.

[Jade_GL]

I think maybe the government had another motive as well for creating the Ultimen, beyond just having heroes of their own.

These heroes, ones that are easier to get to know, to see in action, to relate to, could one day usurp the role of the League. If you show people a group of heroes that are likable, always doing things in the public eye, and are more open, eventually the people of the country will begin to ask why the League isn't the same way, thus undermining their credibility and stature.

Sure, the League doesn't even have to do anything *bad* to have this happen to them. If you have a hero over here like Batman, for instance, that is more urban legend than man, who keeps everything hidden, and then on this side you have an almost boy band, Dawson's Creek hunk that puts his face and person out there for public scrutiny, eventually people will begin to wonder why one group is so aloof and secretive.

That would cause people to turn from the League, I believe.

It's a win-win for the government, or who ever is behind the genetic experiments. You not only have a team that is totally loyal to you (and maybe you could create them to be completely dependent upon you a la the Jem'Hadar in Star Trek DS9) but you also have a way to undermine the credibilty of the team that you can't control, the renegades.

I think that's really interesting, but it's only a theory. :)

[Style]

The title was word play. "Ultimatum," "Ultimen." You understand? It was a play on phrase.


Oh Really? I don't think so, wait, maybe, you might have a point there. Gee, I never thought of that. It all makes so much sense now. :rolleyes:

I'm aware of the play on words. BUT- That's not a good enough reason to call an episode "ultimateum," just cause you have these ultimen heroes. It doesn't change the fact that no one in the episode gives or recieves an ultimatuem.

[90'sCartoonMan]

anyway, speaking of superman, i want to know why he always has to be the whimp of the group? serously, why?
It's like he said in "Secret Society", he takes the blows so no one else has to. At least, I think that's why he let the magma men hold him in place (notice how they all come at him because they think he's helpless, leaving them open to other attacks).

Speaking of "Secret Society", it's interesting that Grodd's group is still in action. I just assumed he had Sinestro free Bizarro from the planet, but why was Bizarro in love with Giganta? Seemed like a convenient way for Wonder Woman to trick and beat him. If an hour long format would help any episode this season, it'd be "Ultimatum". That way we'd get more of Bizarro/Giganta and the Ultimen would gradually change.

I know people like Batman's line to Waller, but I think my favorite was Aquaman's "Not them again". In "Secret Origins", the Superfriends reference was Superman saying this won't be Superfriends. But we see Apache Chief, Samurai, Black Vulcan, and The Wonder Twins...again.

I liked the episode, though. Great to see Aquaman. I assume he's a bit more chummy with the League because fatherhood has changed him for the better. Aquababy must be saying his first words about now and taking his first swim. I'd hope the seventh chair in the Watchtower was his (or maybe Atom, Dr. Fate, Metamorpho...whoever they've known longer). Those symbol things on the back would've helped.

Finally, it is entirely possible that Amanda Waller and her organization know that Batman is Bruce Wayne (from those files Hardcastle mentioned...the big fish must certainly know a great deal about the League), but I don't think she does. Either she bluffed him (this episode alone showed he has an EXTRA flying device, guy has to be loaded no matter who he is), or they've just been spying on him in costume and listening to his conversations (didn't he just refer to himself as a "rich kid" in "This Little Piggy"?). Either way, I can't wait to see where this goes.

[maxnugget]

To those suggesting Waller's "rich boy" comment might have just been indicating she knows he's got lots of money, the fact that she called him a "boy" sounds like a pretty strong indication that she knows he's Bruce Wayne and thus knows Wayne's history. Plus, there'd have no point in her saying that if all she was saying is "I know you've got lots of money." Seems pretty clear she knows Batman's identity.

[Squall]

Speaking of "Secret Society", it's interesting that Grodd's group is still in action. I just assumed he had Sinestro free Bizarro from the planet, but why was Bizarro in love with Giganta? Seemed like a convenient way for Wonder Woman to trick and beat him.
Giganta was just playing games with Bizarro to get him to help her free Grodd from prison. Bizarro assumes a lot based on very little information. Just ask Lois Lane! ;)

Bizarro's appearance does beg two questions though: (1) How did Bizarro get back to Earth? And (2) The judges of the 5th dimension had sentenced Mxyplyx to keep Bizarro happy for an undetermined amount of time. Did he finish his sentence? Is he still on the planet Bizarro left? Is he free, and may appear again in the future?


I liked the episode, though. Great to see Aquaman. I assume he's a bit more chummy with the League because fatherhood has changed him for the better. Aquababy must be saying his first words about now and taking his first swim. I'd hope the seventh chair in the Watchtower was his (or maybe Atom, Dr. Fate, Metamorpho...whoever they've known longer). Those symbol things on the back would've helped.
Please, no symbols on the backs of the chairs! That's so SuperFriends-ish... besides, they're just chairs, who cares where they sit? If it's like any other table in any place people frequent, then people will sit in different places at different times... Besides, I still see members like Aquaman, Dr. Fate, and Barda/Mr. Miracle/Orion as part-time members of the JL at best.

[Grimlock]

Oh Really? I don't think so, wait, maybe, you might have a point there. Gee, I never thought of that. It all makes so much sense now. :rolleyes:

I'm aware of the play on words. BUT- That's not a good enough reason to call an episode "ultimateum," just cause you have these ultimen heroes. It doesn't change the fact that no one in the episode gives or recieves an ultimatuem.
Well sometimes you need to look for a deeper meaning in these things. Timm & Co. know they're dealing with a sophisticaed audience (for the most part), so they can get away with naming episodes like "Twilight" and "Fearful Symmetry" despite the fact that neither were probably spoken in the episode.

You want ultimatums? How about:

1. If the JL didn't back down to the Ultimen, the ultimen would have (or tried to anyway) taken them down.

2. The government basically telling the JL that if they don't start conforming with the government more, they're going to create their own superheroes.

3. The JL saying if the government didn't allow them to take Long Shadow, they'd put up a fight.

4. Dragon Wind telling Long Shadow that if he wasn't with the Ultimen, he was going to take him down along with the rest of the JL.



See, it's all there, you just need to use your imagination.

Oh, and it's spelled "ultimatum", no "e" :).

[Dwayne McDuffie]

I'm aware of the play on words. BUT- That's not a good enough reason to call an episode "ultimateum," just cause you have these ultimen heroes. It doesn't change the fact that no one in the episode gives or recieves an ultimatuem.

Waller: "And, if I were you, I wouldn't probe the situation too closely...rich boy." Restated: "If you investigate this matter, I'll hurt you." That's an ultimatum.

[Grimlock]

Since I'm minimally involved with the comic universe, the introduction of Waller and Max What'shisname had virtually no effect on me. I'm beginning to understand how people not involved with the universe in some way can't enjoy the show or how certain characters who are supposed to invoke a type of response cannot because the response is based on "insider knowledge". All I saw was hard-nosed government agent and bumbling business man who may or may not know what he's gotten into.
Seriously? I had no idea who the Lord and Waller were either, but i still enjoyed this episode a lot. Basically all you *do* need to know about them (for the moment) is "hard-nosed government agent and bumbling business man who may or may not know what he's gotten into." Timm & Co. do a great job with this kind of stuff, i think anyway. For the comic fans, it's cool to see people you know, but for people who don't know about the characters...well i didn't feel there was anything else i needed to know to enjoy it. Sure, i figured they were characters from the comics, but that didn't make me dislike the episode in any way.

I would say kids (one target audience i'm sure CN wants to hit) could most certainly enjoy this show. Plenty of action, new characters with cool powers, etc.

And for older fans...well if i stumbled across this episode as my first, i'd notice that there's obviously some on-going plot and i'd be hooked.

I'd say people who watch that episode as their first and can't appreciate it just can't appreciate good comic book writing...which is fine, but then they probably shouldn't be watching JLU anyway.



I think I've been spoiled by TT and anime, but I saw nothing special in the fights. What I saw reminded me of Keaton's Batman fighting style. Punch, dead time, punch, dead time, punch, dead time, etc. Nothing made me go, "Wow, what power! How cool!" Instead I was flinching, with thoughts of "Wow, that was a violent and poorly-timed fight sequence." I wonder if different camera angles and some tight close-ups would help.
Well, seeing as JL is targeted to a higher age group than TT...do we really need to have people with a new power each week that make us go, "WOW, COOL, look what THAT guy can do???" I don't, but i'm speaking for myself.

We got to see superman's strength, aquaman's underwater abilities, and batman do some sweet moves...what more do you want from this show? And heck, you got to see all the powers from the ultimen!

To each her own, but i found this episode easily enjoyable...though i am biased as i love Timm's version of the DCAU.

[Grimlock]

Waller: "And, if I were you, I wouldn't probe the situation too closely...rich boy." Restated: "If you investigate this matter, I'll hurt you." That's an ultimatum.
One of the ultimatums in the list i wrote could be shapen to fit that, glad i'm not just pulling stuff from left field :)

[vulcanrush]

Don't you think you are assuming more than what was presented? Every time a woman is nice to someone doesn't mean they are attracted to them. Did I miss something ? Was she rubbing his legs and glaring into his eyes?

From what I could see Diana took a protective/mentor stance with Longshadow and did not appear to be trying to pursue a relationship. I'm just not seeing the hints of attraction.

Even when looking at Longshadows character we don't see him going after Wonder Woman for a relationship or even any flirting either. He was in awe of the League as a whole and eager to join them. Diana took him under her wing and was getting to know him.That's not something unusual. He was of course a little nervous around WW because it was the equivalent of meeting and working with someone you have always idolized.
THANK YOU.

finally, an intelligent and rational poster.

[vulcanrush]

well wesley, she found Longshadow attractive, and very nice, and honest. how many men are like that ou thier.i always find it funny how viewers claim to know what these characters are thinking. :rolleyes:

if you think ww finds longshadow attractive here, wait until the next episode -- where she puts the atom in her breasts.

what is that, fornication to you?

seriously. there's taking things outta context. then's there just delusional.

[Ian]

Something I noticed: how could Batman say to the Ultimen "you're getting sicker"? He hadn't heard all of the relevant pieces of information either from the People In The Know or the Ultimen. And no, the "he's Batman" card doesn't fly. And how contrived was it that the same team that dealt with the Ultimen in the beginning was the team available to deal with them later?

[DLM]

This was a GREAT episode of JLU! Well, Ok.. not objectively. Objectively it was average and the criticisms of how it advanced the conspiracy story arc are all probably valid. BUT I DON"T CARE! As a child of the seventies and early eighties I appreciated this episode for what it was. Yeah, Aquaman was a little out of character. Yeah, the Ultimen were two-dimensional. You know what? My first reaction was that I was I didn't care. I was caught up in the fun of seing the Superfriends in a modern context. Sorry to all you who didn't get it, but I had fun watching this episode. My advice? Appreciate that we got a bit of narrative advancement in the overall story but don't get too hung up on this episode. It was fanservice to the gen-x set, and I for one appreciated it.

[WonderRaver]

Something I noticed: how could Batman say to the Ultimen "you're getting sicker"? He hadn't heard all of the relevant pieces of information either from the People In The Know or the Ultimen. And no, the "he's Batman" card doesn't fly. And how contrived was it that the same team that dealt with the Ultimen in the beginning was the team available to deal with them later?
Batman and the rest of the league got the relevant information from Long Shadow. I assume a few minutes passed from the time the JLU arrived on the scene to when they went into the building. This would have been enough time for LS to brief the others on what he knew.

As far as being the team that kept being available... maybe it was a bit convenient, but it was the original four from the Superfriends.

-Matt

[LightAngel]

I guess I'll finally just chime in here. I really did enjoy this epsiode. It may not have been epic, but I still loved it. I didn't find the Ultimen to be that annoying. Sure those Wonder Twins people were outright idiotic for trying to drown Aquaman, but I still felt pity for the group at the end. That lady's "Rich Boy" comment kind of took me by surprise, but that's what I like in this show. I see from the end credits that Hawkgirl's coming back next week. Oh that shall make my obsessive fan girl day!

[Knight]

I see from the end credits that Hawkgirl's coming back next week. Oh that shall make my obsessive fan girl day!
Actually the preveiws were from several eps Hawkgirl wont be in the next one up but the following.

[Style]

Waller: "And, if I were you, I wouldn't probe the situation too closely...rich boy." Restated: "If you investigate this matter, I'll hurt you." That's an ultimatum.
Restated, it's an Ultimatum, but as spoken in the episode, it's an implicit threat. An Ultimatum has to be explicit in it's terms. Though I geuss I can see where you are coming from.

[Style]

To those suggesting Waller's "rich boy" comment might have just been indicating she knows he's got lots of money, the fact that she called him a "boy" sounds like a pretty strong indication that she knows he's Bruce Wayne and thus knows Wayne's history. Plus, there'd have no point in her saying that if all she was saying is "I know you've got lots of money." Seems pretty clear she knows Batman's identity.
Maybe, but I don't think "boy" applies to Batman anymore. He' hovering around 45 at this point.

[Dwayne McDuffie]

Restated, it's an Ultimatum, but as spoken in the episode, it's an implicit threat. An Ultimatum has to be explicit in it's terms. .

No it doesn't. From dictionary.com, emphasis added:

Ul·ti·ma·tum     
n. pl. ul·ti·ma·tums or ul·ti·ma·ta (-t)

1. A final statement of terms made by one party to another.

2. A statement, especially in diplomatic negotiations, that expresses or IMPLIES the threat of serious penalties if the terms are not accepted.

[Duke]

Maybe, but I don't think "boy" applies to Batman anymore. He' hovering around 45 at this point.
It's meant symbolically, much like how the Joker used it in ROTJ.

[Allen CARR]

first Batmans not hovering around 45, hes like in his mid to late 30s. and, calling the Bat rich boy, that was an nice way to get to him.

[Cram33]

Thie Episode of the JLU was pretty interesting but I have a Question for bruce Timm... why does he continue to make Superman an aging "Man" who is not so Super??
Aquaman was pretty awesome with the whole "King of the Seas remember?" thing but Batman should not have shown a "reaction" when the government official called him "rich boy"...

JLU makes it's return (thank God)...


http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/jlu/jlutb.jpg

Episode #9 - Ultimatum
Original Airdate - December 4th, 2004

The Justice League meets the Ultimen, a popular group of young heroes who are about to discover their own horrifying secret origins.

Comments?

[Fone Bone]

first Batmans not hovering around 45, hes like in his mid to late 30s. and, calling the Bat rich boy, that was an nice way to get to him.He's probably forty or older. If he started traveling the world at eighteen, he started being Batman when he was 28. If we assume he adopted Dick shortly thereafter he's 29. Eight years later BTAS takes place. Three years after that TNBSA (conjecture). Three years after that Justice League. (enough time for Superman to reearn the world's trust). Two year later is JLU. So that's around 45. If he adopted Dick later he's even older!

[William C. Maune]

The "boy" comment could additionally refer to Bruce's playboy image.

[Trevor Balena]

He's probably forty or older. If he started traveling the world at eighteen, he started being Batman when he was 28.
I agree with the rest of your chronology, but I don't think this is right. There's no way Bruce was 28 in the MOTP flashbacks... he doesn't act that old (both he and Andrea pretty much seemed to be kids, relatively speaking), and Andrea's "I've seen him around campus" quote wouldn't make much sense, as I can't imagine he'd wait around to do a post-graduate degree once he returned from travelling.

I've always assumed he was in his early to mid-twenties when he became Batman, and he's in his late thirties now.