Is Paul Dini Overrated?

[Style]

There's been some discussion about this, so I thought I'd just start a thread about it. How do I feel? Well, if he is overrated, I think it's just slightly. But he has done some much great stuff for the DCAU. You can't impugn that. Still, I geuss I wasn't as hot for "Return of the Joker" as most people were, and I never really liked "Over The Edge"...

But still, he's the guy who gave us "Heart of Ice," "Harleyquinade," et. al. His drunken scribblings are probably better than any fanfiction I could muster, (Except for maybe "This Little Piggy," if I tried, I bet I could write a better episode with the same premise.)

But, what do you think?

[Peter Paltridge]

Over the Edge rocked my socks. Dini is stupendous when deadlines and creativity allow him to be. We sometimes get stuff like Joker's Millions, but the good outweighs the bad.

I was looking through the list the newspaper printed of Christmas TV movies this year, and I felt kind of bad for Dini. His wish is for Jingle Belle to catch on, but I'm seeing five different TV movies here from various times in the 90's that had the premise of "Santa's daughter" or "Santa's son." I always find it annoying when I come up with something on my own that I think no one else has already run into the ground, and then later I find out someone in fact has. :(

[FALLEN ELDOR]

what was wrong with Joker's Million's? It's one of the best batman/joker stories ever told (or so I'm told heh heh) ;) and I thought that Over The Edge was better then Heart of Ice!

This little piggy was alright, but it was a bit to much humor along with Kid Stuff when the show should have focused on more serous stuff that posed a threat for the team like The Return did. It's hard to strike a good balance, and they are on new territory with such a large castT and reduced time. Add to that we had gotten the uber serous Star Crossed and I'm sure they felt the audience needed a shot of levity to remind us adults that it's an adolescent power fantasy about people in tights beating each other up :)

[Fone Bone]

I appreciate all the stuff PM Dini has done for the DCAU. Stuff like Mask of the Phantasm, Return of the Joker, Legacy, and Heart of Ice. Brilliant stuff all.

At the same time my two least favorite Batman episodes were written by him (Trial and Harlequinade.)

I also agree that Over the Edge is overrated. Once you know the trick ending it has very little replay value (except for the scene at the end.)

I actually loved Hard as Nails and This Little Piggy and enjoyed Comfort and Joy and Chase Me.

[Mister Intensity]

The short answer to this question is no but the existance of this question says a lot about how fandom has propped Dini up.

As far as his Justice League episodes go, IMO, a lot of fandom's disappointment towards those episodes stems from Dini's conscious effort to write episodes that were different from any Justice League episodes up to that point. Personally, I enjoyed his episodes and both made me wonder what Justice League would have been like if he was on staff. Then again I often wondered from the beginning if the show would have had a more human element if he was on staff from the very beginning (do some searches of my posts from Season One if you don't believe me). "Comfort and Joy" was an attempt to do a "day off" holiday story about the League but there was so little done to flesh out the League's out of costume lives that almost everything was done in costume despite Christmas being a "day off" for the League. And while it would have been nice to see more out of costume scenes -- particularly the Flash -- it did provide some nice moments.

As for "This Little Piggy," which is probably my favorite JLU episode, someone on another website described it as a "big middle finger to those who take Batman too seriously," and fankly, that is the best description of the episode. I get the sense that he wrote that episode to remind people that JLU is just a cartoon and cartoons are supposed to be fun not something overly dissected and taken way too seriously. It succeeds on that front in my eyes. Yes, the events depicted in that episode was absurd but it was grounded in human concerns and offered the best on screen argument for a Wonder Woman/Batman relationship, while having fun at the expense of Batman's constipated reputation and the fans who want to keep him that way. Now if only someone would write such a story for one of the mainstream Batman comic books because comic book Batman needs to be taken down a couple pegs. It seems that any attempt of "lightening up" Batman immediately gets called "too campy," which shows a lack of understanding of what camp means and totally misses the point of the 60's Batman series. Kudos, to Paul Dini for "This Little Piggy" because this story is much needed in this time of convoluted continuity -- note, the off-screen adventures Dini refers to -- and melodramatic angst.

That's my opinion and if somebody feels that Dini's stories isn't for them then there's nothing wrong with that. We really need to learn to disagree with each other in a healthy manner.

Mister Intensity

[Supremus]

Paul Dini's contribution to the DCAU is almost immeasurable. He is responsible for some of the most magnificent moments in modern TV animation. His recent efforts certainly haven't lived up to his own high standards, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is overrated.

[Hokuto_Master]

Hi all, it's my first post, even though I've been reading these boards for a very long time.

To quickly introduce myself, let's just say I'm a great fan of BTAS of course, which is THE show that got me into the dark knight. I enjoy TNBA a bit less, but no matter how hard I tried to get into it, I simply can't get used to The Batman which is a show I really dislike. The coolest Batman movies are for me Mask of the Phantasm, and Return of the Joker Uncut (of course). My two favorite villains are Mark Hamill's Joker and Bane (TNBA style). I'm also fond of japanese animation and mangas (Fist of the North Star, Fist of the Blue Sky).

Now, is Paul Dini overrated? I don't think so. All I know is he gave us BTAS, ROTJ, etc... For me his version of Batman is the best one I've ever seen.

[tedcassidy]

There's a reason that Paul Dini has written many great episodes and created much of the great story telling that has been told about these characters that we love, and that's because he has "TALENT!" I think the fact that he does this for a living and the rest of us just talk about it says volumes........ don't you?

[Simpler Simon]

Mr. Dini is like another great writer, Stephen King. He established himself in one genre (drama for Dini, horror for King) and over the course of his career has slowly moved into another (comedy for Dini, drama for King).

Of course, the change for King came after his car accident...don't think Mr. Dini had anything that traumatic happen to him (unless it was the injured hand that prevented him from scripting Brave and the Bold).

[DerekPowers]

Paul Dini's contribution to the DCAU is almost immeasurable. He is responsible for some of the most magnificent moments in modern TV animation. His recent efforts certainly haven't lived up to his own high standards, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is overrated.

well put, i totally agree. for rotj alone i'd say he's not, and thats just the tip of the iceberg.

[Indefatigable]

He's human, he doesn't do everying perfect all the time.

But he does most of the time.

[Dr_Flask]

I don't think Paul Dini is overrated, but I think Bruce Timm is and he seems to have an inflated ego as well...if JLU can be used as an example.:mad:

[sKorpia]

If you're asking if I, personally, overrate Paul Dini, then no. He has his hits, he has his misses. I think he's overall a great writer, not just for the DCAU but also in his collaborations with Alex Ross and currently on ABC's Lost.

If you're asking if I think other people overrate Paul Dini, some do and some don't.

[The best we can hope to do in life is to tread water.]

[Fone Bone]

I don't think Paul Dini is overrated, but I think Bruce Timm is and he seems to have an inflated ego as well...if JLU can be used as an example.:mad:How can JLU be used as an example of Bruce Timm's huge ego? Makey no cents.

[Supremus]

... but I think Bruce Timm is and he seems to have an inflated ego as well...if JLU can be used as an example.:mad:...? That one is going to need a little bit of explaining, methinks.

[Dr_Flask]

...? That one is going to need a little bit of explaining, methinks.Simply it was BT and Co idea to add all these obscure, 3rd tier heroes and turned JL into the messed that it is today. Yes, CN wanted the time format change but BT and his over-inflated ego was the one who wanted all these so called heroes stinking up the screen when clearly it was't needed. JLU isn't an improvement of what JL was. Its simply a fanboy dream of cramming these guys onto the screen and forcing plotlines.

I'm sorry if this goes against anyone opinions of BT but to me the guy is overrated. :shrug:

[Supremus]

Simply it was BT and Co idea to add all these obscure, 3rd tier heroes and turned JL into the messed that it is today. Yes, CN wanted the time format change but BT and his over-inflated ego was the one who wanted all these so called heroes stinking up the screen when clearly it was't needed. JLU isn't an improvement of what JL was. Its simply a fanboy dream of cramming these guys onto the screen and forcing plotlines.

I'm sorry if this goes against anyone opinions of BT but to me the guy is overrated. :shrug:I don't know that Timm was solely responsible for the larger JLU roster, but that's not really the point. It's certainly not an indication of an inflated ego. If Timm was honking his own horn all aver the place about what a great idea it was and how cool his new show is, that would be different, but the fact of the matter is that he always comes across as pretty humble, and he is always quick to give other people credit.

You may disagree with some of his ideas or his work, but to use such a weak argument to claim he has an inflated ego is just ridiculous. And remember, Timm is not the only producer on JLU, and although I have often voiced my own concerns about JL, I am fairly certain the show would be a lot worse without Timm.

[Singularity]

I'll like to remind everyone that Dini wrote Static Shock's "Hard as Nails". This would be a insufferable sin if it wasn't for his previous works.

[Killtacular]

Is he overrated? Now? Yes. Then? No. Because back then he was good, and now he is not. Everything up to Return of the Joker has ranged from decent to amazing. But since then, what has he given us? Duck Dodgers? The most godawful superhero crossovers in animation history? Two sappy idiotic Justice League adventures? Krypto?! When he writes something good maybe I'll turn my head but he has been on a consistent losing streak for a couple of years now.

[The Master Con]

I feel that when Dini writes drama he excels, when he writes comedy he falls.

[BigFatHairyDeal]

Good afternoon,

I wouldn't want to call Dini overrated (kinda harsh topic title, huh?). Unfortunately, his last couple of JL/JLU episodes did leave a bit to be desired. "Comfort and Joy" was pretty blase, and "This Little Piggy" remains my least favorite DCAU episode of all time.



As for "This Little Piggy," which is probably my favorite JLU episode, someone on another website described it as a "big middle finger to those who take Batman too seriously," and fankly, that is the best description of the episode.
I actually thought this episode was more of a big middle finger to those who like the comic Wonder Woman. :shrug: It was more "demeaning," for lack of a better term, for Wonder Woman than it was for Batman, singing or no singing.

Anyway, no, he's not overrated. The quality of his good episodes speak for itself.

[DLM]

There should be a catagory in this poll "He's a good writer, some flaws but jeez... have you ever really looked back at the dialouge of ohh.. say... the Thundercats?" Great show but man... we are spoiled with some of the stuff he's written.

[Dr_Flask]

IYou may disagree with some of his ideas or his work, but to use such a weak argument to claim he has an inflated ego is just ridiculous. And remember, Timm is not the only producer on JLU, and although I have often voiced my own concerns about JL, I am fairly certain the show would be a lot worse without Timm.
I now feel JL would better be serve without BT. And as "humble" as he may seem the guy "ego" is JLU and his overabundance "hero-worship" of those lame characters who were forcibly put on the series. There was no reason to add these lame heros, other than the fact, to "toot one's owned horn". BT ego is massive and he overrated, at best. I've seen better.

[Supremus]

I now feel JL would better be serve without BT. And as "humble" as he may seem the guy "ego" is JLU and his overabundance "hero-worship" of those lame characters who were forcibly put on the series. There was no reason to add these lame heros, other than the fact, to "toot one's owned horn". BT ego is massive and he overrated, at best. I've seen better.I am not a big fan of the C and D list heroes on JLU either, and I much preferred the JLU episodes that featured just a handful of heroes at most. From that perspective I suppose you could argue that Timm has lost his way and is overrated. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but it's a point that can be argued. Saying it's an indication that the guy has a big ego makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If you want a Timm-less DC show, try The Zeta Project, Static Shock, The Batman, etc. I know what I prefer.

[GL2k2]

Dini as a writer is good, but I don't care for his comedy stylings. He's just not good at it. If he were to come out with a comedy series, I wouldn't watch it. He should stick with his strengths.

After watching the debacle that was "This Little Piggy", I realized he was just not good at it. I think if he were making a parody or a humorous episode, he could have done it a different way. But Justice League is not supposed to be something out of the 80's. We as a nation and a people have matured from it. There are people in the animation industry toiling hard to undo what Disney has done to America in it's envisionment of animation, "This Little Piggy" was a step back. And I hope it stands as "THE" worst episode of the entire DCAU.

Shame on him.:mad:

There's an excellent article I read on the plane from Brad Bird on the state of animation and the purpose of making the INCREDIBLES. And he's the kind of animation people we need in the industry right now. Not people like Paul Dini who doesn't seems to not know what kind of writer he is. That Jingle Belle crap sucks. And he needs to know it. I'm glad he's moving on to live action with "Lost" because there at least he might be able to get away with it with the right actors. But animation, please, I hope he stays away from it from now on.

[ClockStomper]

Is he overrated? Now? Yes. Then? No. Because back then he was good, and now he is not. Everything up to Return of the Joker has ranged from decent to amazing. But since then, what has he given us? Duck Dodgers? The most godawful superhero crossovers in animation history? Two sappy idiotic Justice League adventures? Krypto?! When he writes something good maybe I'll turn my head but he has been on a consistent losing streak for a couple of years now.
But is it becuase of his split with Timm? Like for instance, having to write episodes of JL with little to no continuity impact because they're not talking? And given Timm's bigger influence, I can see how Dini would have to take crappier projects. But if he were given free reign, who knows how well he'd do.

RotJ's script is one of my all time favorite reads. Dini does fabulous one liners and dramatic symbolism.

[Revelator]

[QUOTED: GL2k2]
Dini as a writer is good, but I don't care for his comedy stylings. He's just not good at it.


He's usually funnier when inserting comedy into mostly serious episodes. When writing purely comic episodes he tends to over-indulge his boffo side.

After watching the debacle that was "This Little Piggy", I realized he was just not good at it. I think if he were making a parody or a humorous episode, he could have done it a different way. But Justice League is not supposed to be something out of the 80's. We as a nation and a people have matured from it. There are people in the animation industry toiling hard to undo what Disney has done to America in it's envisionment of animation, "This Little Piggy" was a step back. And I hope it stands as "THE" worst episode of the entire DCAU.

Shame on him.:mad:

God, that was overheated. First, calling TLP the worst episode in the entire episode of the DCAU is implicitly redeeming stuff like "Cat Scratch Fever" and "I've Got Batman in My Basement." Second, Dini degraded Batman characters in far worse ways in humorless, feeble episodes like "Make 'Em Laugh" and "Joker's Millions," both of which were forty times as unfunny as This Little Piggy and both of which castrated the Joker.
There's nothing "1980s" about having laugh on solemn, iconic characters, which is what Dini does in TLP, and the day the animation industry loses the ability to have an occasional laugh on its products is the day it's finished. TLP isn't contemptuous camp like the 60s series and its not going to retard the progress of animation in this country--it's hardly Disney cutesiness either. It takes two major DCAU seriously but puts them in ridiculous situations. There's nothing wrong with that. You can make points about the bad structuring of the episodes, or the too-broad one-liners, and those would be valid criticisms.

But animation, please, I hope he stays away from it from now on.


I hope he returns as soon as possible after enjoying his success with Lost. After nearly ruining the Joker Dini wrote ROTJ, and so we shouldn't knock down writers who may be going through a rough patch. Dini's light JLU episodes may have annoyed the more po-faced members of this board, but even they might be interested in seeing what he does with mainly dramatic material. If Superman believes in redemption, then you folks should too.

[Mister Intensity]

Dini as a writer is good, but I don't care for his comedy stylings. He's just not good at it. If he were to come out with a comedy series, I wouldn't watch it. He should stick with his strengths.

After watching the debacle that was "This Little Piggy", I realized he was just not good at it. I think if he were making a parody or a humorous episode, he could have done it a different way. But Justice League is not supposed to be something out of the 80's. We as a nation and a people have matured from it. There are people in the animation industry toiling hard to undo what Disney has done to America in it's envisionment of animation, "This Little Piggy" was a step back. And I hope it stands as "THE" worst episode of the entire DCAU.

Shame on him.:mad:

There's an excellent article I read on the plane from Brad Bird on the state of animation and the purpose of making the INCREDIBLES. And he's the kind of animation people we need in the industry right now. Not people like Paul Dini who doesn't seems to not know what kind of writer he is. That Jingle Belle crap sucks. And he needs to know it. I'm glad he's moving on to live action with "Lost" because there at least he might be able to get away with it with the right actors. But animation, please, I hope he stays away from it from now on.
Gee, when I first saw his name on the credits of B:TAS, I was wondering what a comedy writer like Dini was doing writing for an animated drama?

Mister Intensity

[maxnugget]

I've said it before and I'll say it once again, Dini's comedy writing may be overrated, but he seems to have a much better track record for dramatic writing. The more serious episodes he did were absolute knockouts: "Heart of Ice," "Second Chance," "Growing Pains," (co-story), "Mad Love" (co-story, writer), "Over the Edge"...and for BB: ""Rebirth, pt 1" (co-writer), "Out of the Past," ROTJ (co-story, teleplay), "The Call," (co-story)...and of course, STAS, where he was involved in the scripts for the "Apokolips...Now!" and "Legacy" episodes, if I recall.

The problem -- if there is one -- seems to be more the fact that he has a preference toward fun, lighthearted, comedic writing using cutesy characters and such, despite the fact that his strength seems to be more in the dramatic & serious writing.

Then again, I almost feel stupid saying all this, because I don't know the guy, I don't know the inner workings at these shows, and frankly, you've got to expect to see some bad work come out of people who are constantly trying to produce creative material. Sometimes they're just off, sometimes they're not inspired, sometimes they fail because they're taking a risk or trying to step outside of their comfort zone. It's very unfair to say to someone "you're really good at doing A, you should stop wasting your time doing B." No writer/artist/musician/whatever wants to hear that, and people who value their talent and creativity like to push the envelope, expand the realm where they're talented, try new things, etc.

David Goyer (Blade trilogy and Batman Begins scribe) seems to be a pretty damn good writer, but he wanted to try directing a film. Can you blame him?

Of course the other thing to note is that it's impossible for us to know who's responsible for what when it comes to these episodes that have multiple writer credits. Paul Dini was involved with most of the jaw-dropping serious drama episodes of the DCAU, but then again, all those episodes also tend to be the only ones that list Bruce Timm with a writing credit. So heck, for all we know Bruce Timm is a really good dramatic writer and it's just a well-kept DCAU secret.

Then again, I believe Mr. Timm also claimed accountability for that gloriously over-the-top "I won't stop until you're just a greasy smear on my fist" line in "Twilight," so maybe Timm just likes to add his own personal touch to Dini's scripts. :anime: (I kid, of course...that's one of my all-time favorite Superman lines).

[The Detective]

Is he overrated? Now? Yes. Then? No. Because back then he was good, and now he is not. Everything up to Return of the Joker has ranged from decent to amazing. But since then, what has he given us? Duck Dodgers? The most godawful superhero crossovers in animation history? Two sappy idiotic Justice League adventures? Krypto?! When he writes something good maybe I'll turn my head but he has been on a consistent losing streak for a couple of years now.I actually would tend to agree with this statement. (as blunt as it is) Now don't get me wrong, "Over the Edge" and "Return of the Joker" are two of my absolute favorite pieces of DCUA animation. However, his work outside that has I think tended to be only fair. I think "Hear of Ice" is the most overrated episode ever, and I really can't think of anything else he's done that really sticks out as being exceptional. And then, you have eps like "This Little Piggy." *shudders*

So, overall I respect him as a writer, and think when working with dark, drama he is truly brilliant. But I think he has been elevated to almost god status among the internet fan boys and that, I would think is overkill.

</The Detecive>

[GL2k2]

I'm not saying that comedy is going to ruin animation in the US, but we've been there and done that since it was invented. Let's move on already. I don't mean to particularly blast "This Little Piggy", but it was terrible from the get-go, now perhaps the director was at fault as well, but the ideas brought up in this episode would have been better if the Flash woke up from it.

There's nothing wrong with "Joker's Millions", it was based on an old story from the comics I believe, (so adaptation must have its faults as the saying goes) and the Joker never ever got as dark the comics have portrayed him in the series. He's never killed anyone on screen yet. Return of the Joker was Joe Ker at his most brutal and possibly the only redeeming facet of Dini's career, seeing how he and crew fought for us to see the "Unedited" version. That will always stand as a testament to his abilities as dramatic writer, and we are and all should be grateful to him for it. Also, I don't think making fun of iconic characters is a bad thing, I warmed up to Space Ghost C2C, it doesn't bother me. But why is it America won't air Aquaman & Friends Super Happy Fun Hour or whatever it's called that currently airs in Latin America? Could have something to do with DC not wanting to blaspheme a iconic character. Or maybe CN not to overshadow the Justice League Aquaman. So in one episode of JL, they almost did this with not one but two iconic heroes. Hmmmm, just thought I'd throw that out there.

Now, I don't know what this Timm vs. Dini business is about, as this is the first I'm hearing of it. But, if he submitted "TLP" as a shot or middle finger at what Timm has created with JL, then he should leave that stuff to his Krypto series or something. But I think "TLP" will standout like a sore thumb in the entire DCAU. Even bad BTAS/TNBA episodes were better than "TLP". I mean, my goodness, how can anyone defend the insanity of Red Tornado bellowing "Sueeeee" or a typical Timm designed Circe repeating what Harley did better in "Harlequinade", don't let get me started on Medusa. Enough already. Please, give me a break trying to defend this. I didn't have a problem with Batman singing as most probably did, the love aspect of him and WW was the only redeeming factor. And the singing was a pert ending for that particular opening. But, the rest of it, blah. I didn't care for B'wana Beast either, ugghhh, I'm getting mad just thinking about. Thank God I erased this episode from my tape. I'm going to complain to Michael Powell and the FCC about it.;)

[maxnugget]

I think "Hear of Ice" is the most overrated episode ever, and I really can't think of anything else he's done that really sticks out as being exceptional.

I agree. I've never really understood how "Heart of Ice" came to be thought of as so good that it even edged out "Over the Edge" as the #1 BTAS episode in that TZ poll a couple years back. It's a good episode, the idea for Mr. Freeze's backstory and character motivation was indeed very clever, and the episode was good at featuring a "villain" who was sort of a sympathetic anti-villain, as it were, but the episode on the whole is far from one of BTAS's best offerings. In fact it's one of those episodes that, when I go back and watch episodes of BTAS, I tend NOT to watch that episode because on the whole it's kinda boring.



But, if he submitted "TLP" as a shot or middle finger at what Timm has created with JL, then he should leave that stuff to his Krypto series or something. But I think "TLP" will standout like a sore thumb in the entire DCAU.

Granted I haven't yet read the recent "Timm vs. Dini" thread yet, but I do recall Timm himself saying recently that there's no bad blood between the two of them and that there was never really any truth to that rumor to begin with. In any case, the idea that Dini submitted TLP as a "shot or middle finger at what Timm has created with JL" is simply ludicrous. Firstly, I don't think Dini has any beef with Timm, and I don't know that he ever did. Second, Dini wouldn't submit an intentionally malicious or scornful or intentionally crappy script to Timm, that's just absurd. And thirdly, if that DID happen, you make it sound as if Timm would be required by some sort of law to use the script even if he didn't like it. And TLP was not nearly as terrible as it's being made out to be. It was an exercise in trying something different. And it shouldn't surprise anyone to see people singing or doing musical numbers in a Dini episode, he obviously likes to put those things in and does so often. Recall the opening scene of "Out of the Past" (a much-praised episode), not to mention the numerous musical numbers in the Joker/Harley Quinn episodes from BTAS.

[PM Dini]

>>>Granted I haven't yet read the recent "Timm vs. Dini" thread yet, but I do recall Timm himself saying recently that there's no bad blood between the two of them and that there was never really any truth to that rumor to begin with. In any case, the idea that Dini submitted TLP as a "shot or middle finger at what Timm has created with JL" is simply ludicrous. Firstly, I don't think Dini has any beef with Timm, and I don't know that he ever did. Second, Dini wouldn't submit an intentionally malicious or scornful or intentionally crappy script to Timm, that's just absurd. <<<


Yeah, really. There's no "bad blood." If there were, I doubt we'd be doing DVD commentary on a bunch of B:TAS episodes together next week. If you work side by side with another person on a series of creative projects that span nearly ten years (give or take) there are bound to be a few bumps in the road, just the same as I'd have with Alan Burnett or the other BATMAN/SUPERMAN writers from time to time. No big deal.

As far as TLP being a "middle finger" to Bruce or JL...please. I have WAY too much respect for Mr. Timm as a friend and artist to go there. For what it's worth, nothing that happens storywise on JLU does so without BT's approval or input. It's his party and he was nice enough to invite me in. End of story.

PD

[EJill34]

>>>Granted I haven't yet read the recent "Timm vs. Dini" thread yet, but I do recall Timm himself saying recently that there's no bad blood between the two of them and that there was never really any truth to that rumor to begin with. In any case, the idea that Dini submitted TLP as a "shot or middle finger at what Timm has created with JL" is simply ludicrous. Firstly, I don't think Dini has any beef with Timm, and I don't know that he ever did. Second, Dini wouldn't submit an intentionally malicious or scornful or intentionally crappy script to Timm, that's just absurd. <<<


Yeah, really. There's no "bad blood." If there were, I doubt we'd be doing DVD commentary on a bunch of B:TAS episodes together next week. If you work side by side with another person on a series of creative projects that span nearly ten years (give or take) there are bound to be a few bumps in the road, just the same as I'd have with Alan Burnett or the other BATMAN/SUPERMAN writers from time to time. No big deal.

As far as TLP being a "middle finger" to Bruce or JL...please. I have WAY too much respect for Mr. Timm as a friend and artist to go there. For what it's worth, nothing that happens storywise on JLU does so without BT's approval or input. It's his party and he was nice enough to invite me in. End of story.

PDThank you so much for posting that. Could a Mod just make a thread (and lock it) with only this post, just so we can end all this discussion of the "Timm/Dini" feud? I know if I were b.t. or PM Dini I'd be seriously pissed off by all this talk about what is obviously personal (not to mention, entirely false). I guess they're just better guys than I am.

An a lighter note, B:TAS commentaries? That's awesome. Thanks for the update, Mr. Dini.

...Please let one of those episodes with commentary be "Demon's Quest."

[Bird Boy]

Thank you so much for posting that. Could a Mod just make a thread (and lock it) with only this post, just so we can end all this discussion of the "Timm/Dini" feud?

I'll PM myself a link to the post in question and just close future threads for it with a link to it. Creating a seperate thread, closed, would get lost real quick.

-BB

[EJill34]

I'll PM myself a link to the post in question and just close future threads for it with a link to it. Creating a seperate thread, closed, would get lost real quick.

-BBI meant to say sticky it at the top of the page. Sorry. But, I see what you're saying.

[Bird Boy]

I meant to say sticky it at the top of the page. Sorry. But, I see what you're saying.

Well it's not asked quite that often to have it stickied. It does still pop up every few months though...

In any case, why isn't anyone else burning Dini's hair off with ridicules? C'mon, I know you're not done...

:p

-BB

[Maxie Zeus]

Heh. You wanna know how long this debate had been around? Back in 1999 (http://news.toonzone.net/btan/btan40-p01.php), our very own Tim "Two Face" wrote the granddaddy of "Dini is overrated" arguments; I responded (http://anbat.toonzone.net/essays/taopd.html).

Short version of what I'd say: I don't think it's a "drama vs. comedy" thing, as maxnugget and a few others seem to be suggesting. Whether it is drama or comedy, Dini's real knack (it seems to me) is in focusing on character--on making the characters feel real and alive. The good episodes, whether dramatic or comic, are usually the ones where he's got a good grip on the characters and on what makes them tick; the poor episodes are typically the ones where he seems to get caught up in marginal jokes or plot shenanigans. Such stories are usually no worse than the standard stuff often done by the other writers, but they always feel like a missed opportunity.

Is Dini "overrated"? That's kind of a meaningless question. There are some people (even in this forum) who will assume that because an episode was good that Dini must have worked on it, and some people seem to think that Justice League is produced by some guy named Timothy Burnett Dini. That is "overrating" at two of the famous trio. Better to just ask how good Dini is, exactly. Answer: He has consistently and profligately outperformed every other writer associated with the DC animated universe. I think that makes him, without qualification, the best, despite the more-than-occasional stinker.

[maxnugget]

Short version of what I'd say: I don't think it's a "drama vs. comedy" thing, as maxnugget and a few others seem to be suggesting. Whether it is drama or comedy, Dini's real knack (it seems to me) is in focusing on character--on making the characters feel real and alive. The good episodes, whether dramatic or comic, are usually the ones where he's got a good grip on the characters and on what makes them tick; the poor episodes are typically the ones where he seems to get caught up in marginal jokes or plot shenanigans. Such stories are usually no worse than the standard stuff often done by the other writers, but they always feel like a missed opportunity.

Interesting way of looking at it...I hadn't thought of it that way. Perhaps the reason many of us perceive the distinction as drama vs. comedy is because good characterization is a more central pillar to dramatic stories than it is to comedic ones. That is, an unfunny comedy with good characterization is still going to be an unfunny comedy, whilst, in some sense, the success of a dramatic story is directly tied to the quality of its character portrayal (and the impact of the drama on the characters...).

Maybe this makes sense...I do think the drama vs. comedy angle may be a somewhat oversimplified way of critiquing Dini's work.

[Maxie Zeus]

Interesting way of looking at it...I hadn't thought of it that way. Perhaps the reason many of us perceive the distinction as drama vs. comedy is because good characterization is a more central pillar to dramatic stories than it is to comedic ones. That is, an unfunny comedy with good characterization is still going to be an unfunny comedy, whilst, in some sense, the success of a dramatic story is directly tied to the quality of its character portrayal (and the impact of the drama on the characters...).

Maybe this makes sense...I do think the drama vs. comedy angle may be a somewhat oversimplified way of critiquing Dini's work.

Maybe it's bad form to hype your own site, but check out my full statement (http://anbat.toonzone.net/essays/taopd.html). I think that the quality of his work varies mostly with the way he gets inside a character's skin. Think about it: Everyone loves Harley, even though she's mostly a comic character. Why? Because she feels real even when she's being used in a funny way.

Glen Murakami put it really well when talking about Teen Titans (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?threadid=89451):


In Batman we'd have the story where someone robs a bank and then Batman finds a clue and then at the end of the episode we learn it's the Riddler or it's the Joker. ... I felt like those aspects weren't the most important part of the stories, because they didn’t tell me anything about the characters and what the story means to them. So, for instance, what is "Final Exam" about? Well, it's about being bullied. ... We thought that was a bigger emotional hook to hang the story on than just "the laser has been stolen from the laboratory." I think at the end of it, hopefully, you care about how those characters felt. You know, you kind of feel like, Wow, they're humiliated. ... Obviously we don't want to do the cheesy after-school special. We want this to be fun and we want this to be exciting. But we want you to care about the characters.

In his best stories, whether funny or dramatic, that's what Dini does. He makes you feel for Freeze (http://anbat.toonzone.net/btas/hoi.html), for Tetch (http://anbat.toonzone.net/btas/maah.html), for Isley (http://anbat.toonzone.net/btas/hag.html), for Robin (http://anbat.toonzone.net/bb/rotj.html), for old Bruce Wayne (http://anbat.toonzone.net/bb/ootp.html). At the end, you think "God, what must it feel like to be put through that?" Even when it is ostensibly a farce (http://anbat.toonzone.net/tnba/jm.html), you can feel dread and mirth simultaneously, because it's about a character tearing himself apart, like Rumpelstiltskin.

(Another sign that Dini is more interested in character than in "drama" or "comedy": The darkest stories will have unexpected jokes, and the funniest stories will have a moment of intensity. That's what happens to real people in real situations.)

I think that's why "This Little Piggy" and "Comfort and Joy" batted only singles or doubles instead of home runs. TLP felt dominated by throwaway gags (like Medusa) and chase scenes, some of which work and some of which don't. But--as has been noted by others--does anyone worry about Diana's feelings? Or Batman's? We get only a taste of that at the end, when Bats manfully gives in to Circe's blackmail. But mostly the people are ciphers. C&J? The JL characters feel built for action and speed, not character, so I'm not surprised that even in an Xmas special they feel ... stiff. Again, it has nice moments and some lovely grace notes, but because the characters are relatively uncompromising, JL doesn't seem like an show on which Dini can best do his very special thang.

(As for Duck Dodgers, I've no idea. I only watched six or seven episodes of that show, and I have no idea where the blame--if blame is deserved--lies.)

Of course, it's not a hard and fast rule. Sometimes an intense character study just doesn't come off: I don't think Baby Doll (http://anbat.toonzone.net/btas/babydoll.html) works very well. And sometimes a trashy, lets-just-have-some-dirty-fun story (http://anbat.toonzone.net/btas/agi.html) works like gangbusters. But judging by his record, and by some of the things he's said in interviews, Dini knows what a good story needs and plainly has the skill to pull it off. Beyond that, it's just a question of whether the Muse has an appointment with him the week he's writing a script.

[DLM]

I think that's why "This Little Piggy" and "Comfort and Joy" batted only singles or doubles instead of home runs.

TLP was a single, or maybe a double with "am I blue" factored in (which was the best moment of the episode. if you disagree you just dont get it :)). but "Comfort and Joy" was a triple in my book. Then again Im a mark for all things Martian Manhunter.

[Revelator]

If we're foolishly going to put Dini on trial, we may as well directly consider the many exhibits. Let's not forget that Dini also served as a story editor and producer on Batman, Superman and Batman Beyond, which means that he was involved with crafting even more stories than his sole writing credits suggest.
Here's his DCAU CV: (corrections welcome!)

Movies:
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm (Joker sequences)
Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker

Comics:
The Batman Adventures Holiday Special
The Batman Adventures Annual #1
The Batman Adventures Annual #2
The Batman and Robin Adventures #1-3,8,17
The Batman and Robin Adventures Annual #1
Superman Adventures #1
Harley & Ivy #1-3
Mad Love

BTAS/TNBA script credits:

"Heart of Ice"
"Joker's Favor"
"Mad as a Hatter"
"Almost Got 'Im"
"Joker's Wild"
"The Laughing Fish"
"Harley and Ivy"
"The Man Who Killed Batman"
"Zatanna"
"The Worry Men"
"House and Garden"
"Trial"
"Harlequinade"
"Baby Doll"
"Harley's Holiday"
"Make 'Em Laugh" (co-scripted)
"Deep Freeze"
"Catwalk"
"Holiday Knights"
"Joker's Millions"
"Over the Edge"
"Mad Love"

BTAS/TNBA Story co-credits:

"Pretty Poison"
"Fire From Olympus" (sole credit)
"Second Chance"
"Riddler's Reform"
"Deep Freeze"
"Showdown"
"Lock-Up" (sole credit)
"Growing Pains"
"Cult of the Cat"
"Mad Love"

Superman script credits:

"Last Son of Krypton" I-III (co-scripted)
"The Main Man" I-II
"Mxyzpixilated"
"World's Finest" I (co-scripted)
"Little Girl Lost" I (co-scripted)
"Little Big Head Man" (co-scripted)
"Unity" (co-scripted)
"Legacy" II (co-scripted)

Superman story co-credits:

"World's Finest" I-III
"Obsession"
"Little Big Head Man" (sole credit)
"Legacy" I-II

Batman Beyond script credits:

"Rebirth" I (co-scripted)
"Out of the Past"
"Countdown" (co-scripted)

Batman Beyond story co-credits:

"The Call" I-II
"Terry's Friend Dates a Robot"

Static Shock script credits:

"Hard as Nails"

Justice League script credits:

"The Brave and the Bold" I-II (co-scripted)
"Comfort and Joy"
"This Little Piggy"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dini's fame therefore rests mainly on his BTAS output. After BTAS his value was recognized and he served as a Story Editor and Producer for subsequent DCAU series, which explains his lessened output. It isn't so debatable to suggest that he has the best track record of any DCAU writer--more than that, even the best Berkowitz/Fogel/McDuffie/Goodman episodes lack something Dini's stronger efforts have (Alan Burnett and Martin Pasko have produced moments of equal emotional power): a certain spontaneity, a certain amount of surprises and tonal richness. Maxie Zeus is correct to note that his strength is in character (though I think Baby Doll is far stronger than he realizes), and when he's on the right track he usually can produce the most dramatically intense scripts of any DCAU writer.

[maxnugget]

If we're foolishly going to put Dini on trial, we may as well directly consider the many exhibits. Let's not forget that Dini also served as a story editor and producer on Batman, Superman and Batman Beyond, which means that he was involved with crafting even more stories than his sole writing credits suggest..

....

Thanks, Revelator. Someone needed to do that. I'd be curious to know, for my own future reference, where you got your information from. I know TZ's "The Animated Bat" provides this info for BTAS/TNBA/BB, but where'd you get the STAS info?

[Style]

If we're foolishly going to put Dini on trial...
I think this statement shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the supposed 'accusation' at hand, at least how I meant it. You see, to call someone overrated is not really supposed to be an insult to the person himself. He is who he is. The actual insult is levelled at the people who are overrating him. The suggestion is that they are judging a subject poorly. Remember, Paul Dini can't directly control how his work is percieved. It's not he who is on trial, but us.

I think Paul Dini is a brilliant writer. But I suppose that at one point I might have called overrated. I believe that was in the wake of "This Little Piggy." If I suspected people were going to assume that I was insulting him, I would probably have phrased it differently.

But the situation at the time had me rather aggravated. It seems hard to believe now, but I was really, really looking forward to This Little Piggy before it aired. What wasn't to like? It was written by Paul Dini, who is good, Featured Zattanna, who I always liked, and was a comedy, which seemed like it might be a blast. But, This Little Piggy was bitterly disappointing to me. Zattanna, while looking similer, had next-to no continuity with the BTAS version. The comedy wasn't funny, but seemed like a series of gags. And the whole thing felt strangely self aware, like the story itself knew it was supposed to be a Dini comedy and tried it's best to conform to that mold. but it felt really forced.

When I came onto the boards to vent, I was taken aback that 4 out of 5 posts on the talkback were "Dini hits another one out of the park!!!" It really felt like people were giving the episode a pass just because Dini had his name on it. It was very surreal. In the wake of that, I think I called him overrated. But I've cooled down about it now that average opinion of "TLP" has dropped to a more appropriate level.

But to sum up: Dini is good. Fans saying he can do no wrong is not so good. That's what my position is.

[Mister Intensity]

But to sum up: Dini is good. Fans saying he can do no wrong is not so good. That's what my position is.
Bingo! That statement could also be applied to how fans put things on a pedestal.

Mister Intensity

[Revelator]

Thanks, Revelator. Someone needed to do that. I'd be curious to know, for my own future reference, where you got your information from. I know TZ's "The Animated Bat" provides this info for BTAS/TNBA/BB, but where'd you get the STAS info? From TvTome. I'm not sure if they're 100% accurate but I think the majority of the information is sound.
As for stly92's post: if his fans are on trial, then the verdict looks pretty good for my side. (Tomorrow we go golfing with OJ.)
TLP was flawed, (something I was quick to say when it came out) but for it to serve as a starting point to reconsider our estimation of Dini is not sound. A few late stinkers (if TLP wasn't great, calling it 100% awful is just an inversion of the first reaction--I'm not referring specifically to you on that point) don't negate the rest of the best CV of any DCAU writer.

I'm prepared to admit that his current work displays signs of a bad patch.
Personally, I haven't watched Duck Dodgers, (from what I can tell, most of the episodes feature Dini as one of four co-writers, though Dini serves as story-editor and producer), and don't know for myself if it's awful or not.
As for Krypto, it doesn't look like the most promising show in the world, but no one's seen it yet, so we can't judge that yet, no matter how hard some churls try. I can't pretend that I wouldn't prefer him to return to JLU and write a few dramatic storylines; nor can I pretend that he doesn't seem to be coasting lately...nor can I pretend that we weren't right to give him the acclaim he's enjoyed.
It's not as though these boards were being swamped by Dini worshippers claiming everything he touched turned to gold.

[Robin]

Over-rated? Not at all. He wrote one a couple of my favorite episodes - Heart of Ice and Comfort and Joy. But I do think he's lost a bit of an edge lately and his stuff is not as great as it used to be. Does that mean he's over-rated? No. Just aging.

[Telle]

Here's his DCAU CV: (snip)
It isn't so debatable to suggest that he has the best track record of any DCAU writer--more than that, even the best Berkowitz/Fogel/McDuffie/Goodman episodes lack something Dini's stronger efforts have (Alan Burnett and Martin Pasko have produced moments of equal emotional power): a certain spontaneity, a certain amount of surprises and tonal richness. Maxie Zeus is correct to note that his strength is in character (though I think Baby Doll is far stronger than he realizes), and when he's on the right track he usually can produce the most dramatically intense scripts of any DCAU writer.
That CV also shows that comparing him to other DCAU writers is hard when he has done such a lion's share of the work. Who has a comparable output? All of those things (ranging, as you say, from occasionally very good to bland with some character highlights) just place him in the average writer category in my book --you can't include nostalgic Xmas epsiodes in that list either --too easy:) .

Martie Pasko rocks!