Should honorifics be used in dubs?

[BrendaBat]

I was watching the Chobits animé with a friend and I was surprised when the dub actors addressed someone as “sempai”. I had to pause the DVD to explain to my friend what sempai meant because she’s new to animé and doesn’t know any honorifics besides “san” and “chan”. I’ve seen a few other dubs that use honorifics, too.

Now, I like the fact that dub writers are striving to be as faithful to the Japanese versions as possible. However, I think it goes a little overboard when the actors in the ENGLISH version are using honorifics. It makes the dialogue sound unnatural because English speakers don’t talk like that. Also, when dub writers cater to the otakus by putting those things in the English version, they turn off casual fans like my friend who like animé but don’t watch enough to know what all the honorifics mean.

To be fair, I know that terms like “sama” and “sempai” are hard to translate. But I think the dub writers should try for the sake of the people who don’t know basic Japanese (and the honorifics can be kept in the subtitles to keep the otakus happy).

So, what do you guys think?

[Chad Bonin]

Honestly, I think they should go for the closest equivalent. "Sir", "Ma'am", or "Miss", or just ignore it. It's not something Americans use normally, so...

[Master Moron]

Maybe they put it in just to make the lips match. I remember in one episode of Fushigi Yugi Miaka said "Yui chan". I think that was the only time that Miaka said chan in the dub. I assume they did it just to make the lips match. After all, if they didn't put in the chan they'd have to put in another one syllable word.

[Beat]

Put it in there if it's something used constantly. If it is, find a way to explain it. If not, gloss over it.

[G1Ravage]

It's weird when, in the English dub, the characters talk about how well they're all speaking Japanese.

Like in Azumangadaioh.

There's really no "politeness" in English, so sometimes ya gotta leave something like "sempai" in, and just assume that someone who is watching an anime will know some of the Japanese oddities behind it.

[BrendaBat]

There's really no "politeness" in English, so sometimes ya gotta leave something like "sempai" in, and just assume that someone who is watching an anime will know some of the Japanese oddities behind it.If the dub writers feel they must leave an honorific in, they should at least put a glossary of Japanese terms somewhere on the DVD.

The first animé I saw that used honorifics in a dub was one of the Orange Road movies. I thought that "chan" and "sempai" were the character's last names until a friend told me what they really meant :p


Honestly, I think they should go for the closest equivalent. "Sir", "Ma'am", or "Miss", or just ignore it. It's not something Americans use normally, so...I agree. The Slayers dub translated all the honorifics like that and it worked fine. The dub would have sounded awkward with Japanese terms thrown in.

[Razor]

depends on the show and the show's audience.

[Sandoz]

I don't mind honorifics in dubs (or translations of manga) if there's no exact equivalent in English, like sempai. (Though there probably should be a liner note included to inform any viewers unfamiliar with the word.) Otherwise "Mr./Ms./Miss" is perfectly fine with me.

[Zero Angel]

honorifics in the english dub? eh...i cant say that i like them. while they do add a certain amount of the original character back to the voice it gets annoying. the first time i noticed them being used was in the dub for Wanderers. Nanami constantly refering to Makoto and Makoto-chan was to much.

when english speaking dialogue is used with the japanese honorifics it ussually just feels stressed and forced. not natural.

[Keldran]

If they can pull it off (see FLCL dub) then there's nothing wrong with leaving the honorifics in. However it's really damn hard to pull it off well so it's usually better to just use an equivalent english term or rework the sentence in a creative fashion.

[Tash]

It's weird when, in the English dub, the characters talk about how well they're all speaking Japanese.

Like in Azumangadaioh.Well that dub was ear-grating anyway. The charicters use "Miss" in place of "San", and it comes off sounding overly-polite. (Like it or not, "Miss" is a lot more polite than "san")

[Mynd Hed]

It depends on the context. If the show is obviously set in Japan and all the characters are obviously supposed to "really" be speaking Japanese, then I don't mind if they occasionally fail to translate an honorific or other word that might not have an exact translation in English, because it fits in the context. As has been mentioned before, though, this should only be done if there is no clear and obvious English translation of the term in question, because otherwise you're just choosing terms to leave untranslated essentially at random, which is pointless and defeats the purpose of translating in the first place. (Thankfully, I don't know that I've ever seen a show do this to the point of distraction, at least in the dub.)
In something that's clearly set in America (or France, or Zimbabwe, or a Mars colony peopled by Austrian emigrants) though, everything should be translated, because hearing Japanese words coming out of the characters' mouths makes no sense. If it leads to the occasional imprecise translation because there's no simple 1:1 translation of the word in question, well, tough. It's a fair trade for verisimilitude.

[William C. Maune]

Personnally, I think they should be translated as best as possible. Some of them may be hard to translate, but there are always going to be other words that are also hard to translate. If it isn't going to be translated then there should be a glossary included somewhere, but the very nature of a translation should mean that a glossary isn't necessary.

[MrBananagrabber]

Personnally, I think they should be translated as best as possible. Some of them may be hard to translate, but there are always going to be other words that are also hard to translate. If it isn't going to be translated then there should be a glossary included somewhere, but the very nature of a translation should mean that a glossary isn't necessary.
Well, there aren't always exact translations for words. For "sempai", you could say something like "senior" or the whole "predecessor/successor" thing in Kenshin. The problem is, they've also got to fit the lip flaps. So if someone just yells out "Sempai!", do you have them say the character's name, sempai, or "senior", etc.? It's really depends on the director, but I tend to prefer an attempt at translations like in Slayers or Kenshin, along with a glossary. Covers all the bases.

[AstroNerdBoy]

For the dubs, some shows have pulled it off (FLCL, "Ai Yori Aoshi"), but most don't even try except for the occassional odd term.

But for "Chobits", Yumi always addresses Hideki as "senpai", and her using his name in English wouldn't match her mouth movements. So what can they do?

They could have used "senpai" but should have had a translator subtitle to explain it on its first use, much as AnimEigo does. However, while the scene in "Chobits" doesn't explain the term in depth, I thought the dialog between Yumi-chan and Hideki conveyed the general meaning of the term though. She's in high school, he's graduated, it is only right for her to address him as "senpai".


The Slayers dub translated all the honorifics like that and it worked fine.
Bzzzzz! It worked fine except in "Slayers Next". Amelia calls Zelgadis "Mr. Zelgadis" because in the Japanese, she uses the "-san" honorific (she's very polite and uses honorifics with everyone). However, when they visit the female town which allows no men, Zel, Gourry, and Xellos have to dress up as women. So it was absolutely wacked for her to still call Zel, "Mr. Zelgadis" when they are trying to be undercover. In the Japanese, she continued to call him "Zelgadis-san", and since "-san" is gender-neutral, it worked.

For the subtitled versions, there's no excuse for any honorific to be dropped and if they want to do fun terms, they can do like FUNimation and explain them. Most of the folks watching the subs are more hardcore fans, so the subs should be as accurate as possible while still being readable and understandable.

For the dubs, I know those are catered to a more general audience. So I leave that up to the dub producer. If they need to, like for "senpai", I think they should have a brief translator note to explain it.

I think there should be an extra explaining honorifics and fun Japanese terms left in (even for foods) for both versions. Educate folks, and they'll appreciate anime more.

[Zero Angel]

If they can pull it off (see FLCL dub) then there's nothing wrong with leaving the honorifics in. However it's really damn hard to pull it off well so it's usually better to just use an equivalent english term or rework the sentence in a creative fashion.
FLCL was an exceptional dub as well. their leaving in of the honorifics made sense. the characters still had the same voice inflections and syllabol usage that allowed them to use the honorifics and not sound off. to many shows though try to keep it and it sounds forced, like i said earlier.

as for keeping the food and some of the japanese language structure the same in relation to the honorifics, yeah. it can get a little confusing when you have a mouth flap and need to fill it with something other then their name but on the whole coming up with a substitute ussually works to the shows advantage alot more then forcing the -san's and -chan's and -kun's.

this is just my opinion though.

[Duke]

I also think they should be left in if it's part of a nickname (a la Ta-kun in FLCL and Kaze-kun in s-CRY-ed).

[BrendaBat]

FLCL was an exceptional dub as well. their leaving in of the honorifics made sense. the characters still had the same voice inflections and syllabol usage that allowed them to use the honorifics and not sound off. to many shows though try to keep it and it sounds forced, like i said earlier.It makes more sense for a show like FLCL to use honorifics because its actually set in Japan and, for the most part, only hard-core otakus are really into it anyway.
However, it would make no sense if a show like Slayers did it because Slayers has a medievel/fantasy setting and 2 of the main characters have American names (Lina and Amelia).


Bzzzzz! It worked fine except in "Slayers Next". Amelia calls Zelgadis "Mr. Zelgadis" because in the Japanese, she uses the "-san" honorific (she's very polite and uses honorifics with everyone). However, when they visit the female town which allows no men, Zel, Gourry, and Xellos have to dress up as women. So it was absolutely wacked for her to still call Zel, "Mr. Zelgadis" when they are trying to be undercover. In the Japanese, she continued to call him "Zelgadis-san", and since "-san" is gender-neutral, it worked.That was more a goof-up on the writer's part than an arguement against translating honorifics. And Slayers had a couple of wierd translation goofs like...
Zelgadis saying Rezo is his father and grandfather o_O, Amelia calling her cousin "Uncle", and Sylphiel's "Gourry-sama" being translated as "Gourry-dear"

[Conekiller]

I agree that they should be left in whent he show is unavoidably Japanese. AiYori Aoshi seems to take japanese mannerisms, customs and meals to an almost fetishistic level. The dub, then keeps the honorifics. But it also falls into the actors' laps to make them work. Most of the characters pulled it off, but the actress for Mayu kept over emphazising "sempai" in "Kaoru-sempai" and it sounded forced and unnatural.

Also , alot of single word sentences in Japanese sound very akward when used that way in english. Such as a character referring to another simply as "sempai" repetedly. I understand that sentence structure is differend in Japanese as it is in English, so they have words that carry over certain ideas that just can't be summed up in one word in English (IE "Minna" when used implies "everyone", but when Sailor Moon is concerned for her friends and shouts out "minna!" having her just yell out "everyone" is verrrry akward)


Another argument for horifics in dubs is their character significance. If a certain character always refers to another as "chan" and suddenly, in a fit of drama, referrs to them as "San" this is an important clue to the evolution of the character. But without the honorifics in place, this distintion would be difficult to notice using english equivalents.

I'm personally getting sick of hearing "nii-san" translated to "bro" >_> But I have yet to hear a better equivalent at work than "Lord Tenchi"

[Hatter]

Dubs usually make my ears bleed anyways, but the one time I heard honorifics in an english dub, I wanted to smash my brains out.

[Jave]

In uncut spanish dubs, "Sempai" is usually translated as "Superior"

[BrendaBat]

Also , alot of single word sentences in Japanese sound very akward when used that way in english. Such as a character referring to another simply as "sempai" repetedly. I understand that sentence structure is differend in Japanese as it is in English, so they have words that carry over certain ideas that just can't be summed up in one word in English (IE "Minna" when used implies "everyone", but when Sailor Moon is concerned for her friends and shouts out "minna!" having her just yell out "everyone" is verrrry akward)Yeah. But hearing her yell "minna" in the dub would sound even worse.:sweat:
I've heard various animés translate "minna" as "you guys" or, when the cast is all female, "girls". I think both of those translations sound natural and get the same point across.

[Conekiller]

Yeah. But hearing her yell "minna" in the dub would sound even worse.:sweat:
I've heard various animés translate "minna" as "you guys" or, when the cast is all female, "girls". I think both of those translations sound natural and get the same point across.
I understand, but I'm referring more toward a dangerous situation. If all of Ash's pokemon were captured and about to be dropped into a pit of lava, he would (in japanse) possibly yell out "minna!" but in english would he go "you guys!!" I doubt it.

[BrendaBat]

If all of Ash's pokemon were captured and about to be dropped into a pit of lava, he would (in japanse) possibly yell out "minna!" but in english would he go "you guys!!" I doubt it.Why? I think "You guys" would work just fine in that situation. And I can't think of any other way to translate it (besides having Ash scream "NO" instead).


In uncut spanish dubs, "Sempai" is usually translated as "Superior" I've also heard it translated as "upperclassman".

[AstroNerdBoy]

I agree that they should be left in whent he show is unavoidably Japanese. AiYori Aoshi seems to take japanese mannerisms, customs and meals to an almost fetishistic level. The dub, then keeps the honorifics. But it also falls into the actors' laps to make them work. Most of the characters pulled it off, but the actress for Mayu kept over emphazising "sempai" in "Kaoru-sempai" and it sounded forced and unnatural.I didn't remember her saying that in the dub, but then I only watched it once. In the Japanese, she calls him "Hanabishi-sama". Taeko-chan calls him "senpai" though.


Also , alot of single word sentences in Japanese sound very akward when used that way in english. Such as a character referring to another simply as "sempai" repetedly. I understand that sentence structure is differend in Japanese as it is in English, so they have words that carry over certain ideas that just can't be summed up in one word in English (IE "Minna" when used implies "everyone", but when Sailor Moon is concerned for her friends and shouts out "minna!" having her just yell out "everyone" is verrrry akward)"Senpai" is a title, much like "sensei" or other title. It can be used as an honorific (Tenchi-senpai) or in place of someone's name. In "Ai Yori Aosho", Taeko-chan calls all of her upperclassmen "senpai". That is proper and right in Japanese culture. She is giving them proper respect and is being very polite.

So if a character just says, "Senpai", it is no different than if they just say the character's name and nothing else. A lot of anime and manga have characters just say another character's name when that character has said or done something, usually something that touches the character saying "senpai" or the other character's name.



Another argument for horifics in dubs is their character significance. If a certain character always refers to another as "chan" and suddenly, in a fit of drama, referrs to them as "San" this is an important clue to the evolution of the character. But without the honorifics in place, this distintion would be difficult to notice using english equivalents.Very true. That's why I've argued that even if the dubs ignore Japanese honorifics, the subtitles SHOULD NOT! Outside of FUNimation, no other company consistantly does this. ADV uses "-chan" now in their subs, but only because they started using them in the dubs. ADV has an idiodic notion that the only honorifics that can be placed in the subs are those used in the dubs.

So removing them to any degree can affect the dub story and so one can argue they should be left in there. However, for the subs, there's no excuse for removing them (and I've heard the excuses).


I'm personally getting sick of hearing "nii-san" translated to "bro" >_> But I have yet to hear a better equivalent at work than "Lord Tenchi"I doubt the dubs for TM!R OAV 3 will have any honorifics, but thankfully the subs will! And "niichan" will remain there!

But you mention "Lord Tenchi" and that's not right either. Aeka calls Tenchi "Tenchi-sama" reflecting he is the defacto head of the home where they are staying (since Nobuyuki moved to town). Also, "Tenchi-sama" reflects her deep respect for Tenchi as a person, and her attraction to him as well. "Lord Tenchi" does not reflect that.

Washu calls Tenchi "Tenchi-dono". In this case, "-dono" is used to give respect to another above the "-san" level, but NOT superior to your own level. Washu is the greatest scientist in the universe, so she has no one greater than her. Calling Tenchi "Tenchi-dono" says, "I respect you a great deal, but I do not elevate you above me." The dub's use of "Lord Tenchi" doesn't reflect this IMO.

Further, I absolutely hated the dub/sub's use of "Little" for "-chan". *shudder* It sounded so stupid to be demanding to be addressed as "Little Washu" IMO. I don't know how FUNimation will handle the dub on this, but at least their subtitles will have her addressed as "Washu-chan".

When honorifics are dropped, there's no doubt that something is lost, especially from a title based in Japanese culture. However, even a non-Japanese based title like "Slayers" gets effected too. All of the miko (priestess) and priest use Japanese honorifics exclusively. Lina rarely uses honorifics, and she even uses western ones at times, depending on the situation. So even the removal of honorifics from a title like that changes things.

Still, as I said earlier, if the American licensing companies will give me subtitles with FULL use of Japanese honorifics (when attached to names) while having an accurate, yet readable script, I'll be happy no matter what they do with the dub.

[William C. Maune]

Further, I absolutely hated the dub/sub's use of "Little" for "-chan". *shudder* It sounded so stupid to be demanding to be addressed as "Little Washu" IMO. I don't know how FUNimation will handle the dub on this, but at least their subtitles will have her addressed as "Washu-chan".

What's stupid about using "little" for the translation? I thought it worked pretty well.

[FlyByNite77]

I don't mind Sempai being used as long as it's explained somewhere so those who don't know understand. I hate some of the equivalents anime studios come up with for Sempai, like just making it "Big Brother or Big Sister or what not". If the dub studio is debating between that and just using the characters name, I'd rather they just use the name.

Also for some reason hearing friends or even characters dating calling the other person "Mr. this or Ms. that" just sounds so odd. I guess I'm more able to accept it in Japanese because that's the way their society functions so hearing a Yumi-Chan or Kira-kun works. But in english it just doesn't translate right.

[Chad Bonin]

I thought "Little Washu" and "Lord Tenchi" worked pretty darn well, and I have a feeling FUNi will use them just for sake of consistency. Cloverway kept the Americanized names of the Sailor Scouts, coming from the DiC dub...

[AstroNerdBoy]

What's stupid about using "little" for the translation? I thought it worked pretty well.It just makes me cringe. Actually, it was stuff like this that turned me into an honorific advocate, at least for the subtitles. :)


I thought "Little Washu" and "Lord Tenchi" worked pretty darn well, and I have a feeling FUNi will use them just for sake of consistency. Cloverway kept the Americanized names of the Sailor Scouts, coming from the DiC dub...Well, I forced myself to watch a bit of GXP episode 17's dub. As far as the Tenchi gang went, the honorifics were not addressed and I don't think "Washu-chan" was ever used. "Tenchi-sama" and "Tenchi-dono" didn't get turned into "Lord" though.

Ah, but at least my subtitles will have the honorifics, including "niichan" and "neesan". They weren't in GXP, but I'm told they will be in OAV 3. :cool:

One other thing I'd like to add. Some have commented on the American actors messing up the honorifics and making it sound dumb. I agree that happens, but as I forced myself to watch GXP episode 17, I listened to the VA's honk the character names as well.

[Weatherman]

I suppose for me it would depend on the nature of the show. If it's something like Tenchi or Fushugi Yugi where it's obviously set in someplace that isn't America and is deeply steeped in the the inticacies of Japanese culture to the point that removing them would harm the series then I'm all for leaving them in the dub. If it's something like Bebop or Blue Gender then I'm completely fine with them being left out as they'd sound a little weird in those dubs.

[LordByronius]

NO.

No no no no no. Never. EVER.

NEVER EVER use honorifics in English dubs.

I challenge anyone, ANYONE, to watch the Strawberry Eggs (or even Panyo Di Gi Charat) dubs without tearing their hair out in agony and dispair.

English-speakers can't speak Japanese. You can shout cries of authenticity and accuracy all you like, but it can't hide the fact that it sounds downright unnatural to hear anyone in this country call somebody "-san" in a cartoon.

[Conekiller]

I didn't remember her saying that in the dub, but then I only watched it once. In the Japanese, she calls him "Hanabishi-sama". Taeko-chan calls him "senpai" though.

Whoop, you caught me. it's been a while since I've seen AiYori Aoshi, so I was inacurate in that sence. But my argument still stands that Mayu's actress could not pronounce Hanabishi-sama properly. It would come out "ha-na-BI-shi-sa-MAA"


...I forced myself to watch GXP episode 17....

geez, the dub's not that bad (maybe some of the oldskool characters were, but geeez)

[Tea]

No. I do not think Japanese honorifics should be used in an English dub. I thought FLCL sounded very weird using that.

I don't see the problem with using "Ms." or "Mrs." or "Mr." in exchange for "-san." Sure, if we never find out the gender of the character then it'd be wise not to use it.

On the other hand, I don't think they should Americanize it so much that characters names' are replaced and the plot is altered. There's no excuse for that.

Also, adding honorifics to please the hardcore fans in the dub is like a double edge sword. It's commendable to be oh-so-precise (I guess) but then again, the hardcore fans are not going to watch the dub anyway.

[Conekiller]

On the other hand, I don't think they should Americanize it so much that characters names' are replaced and the plot is altered. There's no excuse for that.

But then you run into things where characters will refer to others solely by the honorific, such as sempai, or niisan.

[Luna]

I don't really like when they leave honorifics in the dub....it's usually pretty awkward (the only series I've seen that I felt it worked was Ai Yori Aoshi)....However,I feel they should be left in subtitle translations...

[Demonic Raven]

FLCL wouldn't be right without Naota being referred to as Ta-kun, IMO. As long as the VAs sound natural while they are saying it, I certainly don't mind.

Translating honorifics to "Little", "Lord", "Sir" etc is the best it is going to be if you don't want them in original form. I really don't mind either way.

[Daizaburo Estes]

NO. NO. NOT dubs. Honorifics + dubs= SHEER HORROR. Mixing Japanese suffixes in spoken English sentences like that is just one of the most vile, unnatural things I've EVER heard. Only if Japanese terms are TRULY necessary should dub writers even THINK of touching upon them simply because 1. DUB VAS CAN'T SPEAK THE JAPANESE LANGUAGE!! and 2. Blending English and Japanese is the DEFINITION of "stilted" and "awkward."

Subtitles, however, are another story for me. You see, I too am a fan of FUNI's own Steve Simmons' and Clyde Mandelin's work, and I applaud them for their jobs. They're easily some of the best translators in the business, not only in their work with some of the more complicated terms, but in general. They're just GOOD.

But that's not to say that Japanese words MAKE the translation. Suffixes and other such things don't always = GOOD, nor are they always really needed. Let's take Trigun, for instance. Honorifics were few and far between in this show and, when any actually WERE made of any use in the Japanese dialogue, it would usually just be a simple, easily translatable -san from Millie or Meryl and came across near perfectly as "Mr." in the subtitles AND in the dub. Anna Exter's work in Trigun was fantastic, and not one honorific was used. The dub is fine enough, and STILL NO SUFFIXES HERE. Like I said, they don't ALWAYS need to be around to get the point across.

It's a mixed bag, to tell you the truth. Basically, anyway.

*sigh* Japanese translation is one of THE MOST exhausting things out there to explain...

[Duke]

Blending English and Japanese is the DEFINITION of "stilted" and "awkward."
That doesn't stop the Japanese from blending English into their language for no reason. :)

[G1Ravage]

Bad use:

In Cowboy Bebop, when Faye, out of nowhere, addresses Mao Yenrai as "Mao-taijin", with no explanation at all.

[Daizaburo Estes]

That doesn't stop the Japanese from blending English into their language for no reason. :)Hmm... Got a point there.

"ITSU YOH-AH DORIIMU O-AH MAI DORIIMU O-AH SOMUBOJIISU DORIIMU!"

Just try and guess where that little gem came from. :D

[Daizaburo Estes]

Bad use:

In Cowboy Bebop, when Faye, out of nowhere, addresses Mao Yenrai as "Mao-taijin", with no explanation at all.
Wait, they did that in the DUB? I can't believe I didn't catch that!

[Demonic Raven]

That doesn't stop the Japanese from blending English into their language for no reason. :) It makes for great hilarity, though. ;)

[AstroNerdBoy]

X-Fed:Original?[/b]]Blending English and Japanese is the DEFINITION of "stilted" and "awkward."


That doesn't stop the Japanese from blending English into their language for no reason. :)
And that's not just in anime, but in normal conversation and writings too. My Japanese sensei was telling me yesterday that she was reading a Japanese magazine and the katakana for some English words were used. It took her a few minutes to figure out what some of the words were supposed to be. *lol*

If we keep the Japanese names (which I firmly support), then we are already blending Japanese and English. It wouldn't take that much for the dub studios to hire a native Japanese person to help the VA's properly say character names. And if honorifics were going to be used in the dub, teaching them the proper way to speak these could be done as well. However, this would add to the cost of production, so I suppose that won't happen.

[BrendaBat]

Originally posted by Lord Byronius
NO.

No no no no no. Never. EVER.

NEVER EVER use honorifics in English dubs.

I challenge anyone, ANYONE, to watch the Strawberry Eggs (or even Panyo Di Gi Charat) dubs without tearing their hair out in agony and dispair.

English-speakers can't speak Japanese. You can shout cries of authenticity and accuracy all you like, but it can't hide the fact that it sounds downright unnatural to hear anyone in this country call somebody "-san" in a cartoon.Well put, LB! I saw the Ai Yori Aoshi trailer recently and it made me cringe. >_<

Trying to cater to hard-core otakus by not translating honorifics is pointless. Hard-core Otakus wouldn’t be caught dead watching a dub because they believe the ugly English language defiles the holy purity of animé.:p
Also, hearing English speakers awkwardly stick honorifics at the end of peoples’ names reminds me of those jack-ass otakus in my old high school animé club who thought throwing “-chan” at the end of everyone’s name instantly made them aficionados of Japanese culture.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Conekiller
But then you run into things where characters will refer to others solely by the honorific, such as sempai, or niisan.Niisan and neesan can easily be translated as bro or sis. Yeah, few (if any) English speaking people refer to their siblings that way, but it would sound a LOT more natural than hearing niisan or neesan. Sempai is a lot trickier since there isn’t a definite translation for it. If it were up to me, I’d translate it as “miss” or “sir” because the literal translation (upperclassman) would be to long to match the lip flaps.


Originally posted by Demonic Raven
FLCL wouldn't be right without Naota being referred to as Ta-kun, IMO. As long as the VAs sound natural while they are saying it, I certainly don't mind.I disagree. When I watched FLCL on Adult Swim, I thought ‘Takun’ was the character’s name and Naota was his last name or something. It wasn’t until halfway through the series that I realized “Ta-kun” was a nickname using the last part of Naota and a Japanese honorific. It made that stupid series all the more confusing! :mad:
I’m sure it also turned off a lot of casual Adult Swim animé watchers who don’t even know what “-kun” means.

Originally posted by AstroNerdBoy
If we keep the Japanese names (which I firmly support), then we are already blending Japanese and English. It wouldn't take that much for the dub studios to hire a native Japanese person to help the VA's properly say character names. And if honorifics were going to be used in the dub, teaching them the proper way to speak these could be done as well. However, this would add to the cost of production, so I suppose that won't happen.Unfortunately, that tactic would alienate all the people who are new to animé from checking it out (like the friend I mentioned in my first post). Thereby giving animé fans even more of a reputation as a bunch of elitist otaku jerks.
And, no matter how well the actors are trained to pronounce the words, it wouldn’t change the fact that hearing honorifics coming out of the mouths of English speakers just sounds weird.

[Duke]

I disagree. When I watched FLCL on Adult Swim, I thought ‘Takun’ was the character’s name and Naota was his last name or something. It wasn’t until halfway through the series that I realized “Ta-kun” was a nickname using the last part of Naota and a Japanese honorific. It made that stupid series all the more confusing! :mad:
I’m sure it also turned off a lot of casual Adult Swim animé watchers who don’t even know what “-kun” means.

How would you translate "Ta-Kun" then? "Ta-Sir"? That would be a pretty awful nickname. And FLCL is already a deeply Japanese series to begin with (even adding Crystal Pepsi couldn't make it very American), and the way the actor pronounce it doesn't really seem out of place.

[AstroNerdBoy]

When I watched FLCL on Adult Swim, I thought ‘Takun’ was the character’s name and Naota was his last name or something. It wasn’t until halfway through the series that I realized “Ta-kun” was a nickname using the last part of Naota and a Japanese honorific. It made that stupid series all the more confusing! :mad:

I’m sure it also turned off a lot of casual Adult Swim animé watchers who don’t even know what “-kun” means.
I don't know about turning off anime watchers. FLCL did pretty well in the ratings, or so I'm told. And FLCL used "-san" as well in the dub. I think they used "senpai" and "sensei" as well.

Anyway, you are right that many hardcore fans don't watch the dubs. I watch the subs which is why I don't really care if they use honorifics in the dubs or not. As long as the honorifics are used in the subs, I'm pretty happy. :D

[AstroNerdBoy]

Sorry for the double-post. :sweat:


How would you translate "Ta-Kun" then? "Ta-Sir"? That would be a pretty awful nickname. And FLCL is already a deeply Japanese series to begin with (even adding Crystal Pepsi couldn't make it very American), and the way the actor pronounce it doesn't really seem out of place.Actually, I think FLCL is one of the best dubs out there. When I first started watching FLCL, it was on CN and thus in English. I wasn't expecting the dub to have honorifics, so I didn't catch Takkun being what it was -- Ta with the "-kun" honorific. However, when I began to realize how many honorifics were being used, I looked it up and discovered the truth.

Later when I watched the Japanese version, I was stunned. The American VA had the "Ta-kun" down perfectly! It quickly became obvious to me that FLCL had been produced by folks who were fans of the title and wanted to bring a faithful reproduction to English.

Not all honorifics were used in the English. "Lord" replaced "-sama" but it worked for the English. And some "-kun" references were dropped as well. That said, the English dub is very good and captured the spirit of the Japanese dub very well!

[raykremer]

What's stupid about using "little" for the translation? I thought it worked pretty well.
It did, yes, but it makes a whole lot more sense when you know that little = -chan and the distinction between -san and -chan. Without knowing the honorifics behind the translation, Washu asking to be called "little" seems rather random and out of nowhere. Same with Yahiko in Kenshin when that one girl calls him little Yahiko all the time.

Really there's no good answer to this question, and maybe it's best to take it on a case by case basis. Actually, the problem is that leaving honorifics in alienate new anime viewers, but taking them out waters down the accuracy of the translation for longtime anime viewers, making it so you can't cater to both types of audience at the same time.

[AstroNerdBoy]

Not to bring up an 'old' topic but...:p

I was re-watching "Fruits Basket" and there's a passage where the "Yuki Fan Club" is meeting and going over the rules of the club (Yuki is a bishounen student at that high school). One of the rules deals with how the girls in this club are to address Yuki.

Here's how it is in Japanese:

3rd-year girls: "Yuki"
2nd-year girls: "Yuki-kun"
1st-year girls: "Sohma-kun"

These are three proper ways for addressing Yuki with "-kun" being the honorific of choice when addressing a high school boy. The senior girls get to address him informally (no honorific) and the younger girls have to address him more formally. The 10th grade girls have to use his family name rather than his given name of Yuki. That shows more respect (and why Tooru addresses Yuki as 'Sohma-kun' for a while).

So all three ways of speaking are NATURAL ways of addressing Yuki in Japanese society.

The English dub went a different route. Here's how they dealt with the honorific issue in how the club members were to address Yuki.

12th grade girls: Yuki
11th grade girls: Prince Yuki
10th grade girls: Prince Yuki Sohma (or Sohma Yuki, I can't remember if they did the name right or not).

So we have one natural way of addressing Yuki in English and two unnatural ways of addressing him.

*shrugs*

Since FUNimation got the subtitles right, I don't care. Honorifics are such an ingrained part of Japanese culture that losing them does change things regarding the story or character. The more Japanese the titles (and Furuba is very Japanese), the more the change. However, must dub watchers won't care about that so long as the dub entertains them. As for me, if the subs have the honorifics, I'm a happy boy. :D

OK, I'm done.