Why you should NOT support this false widescreen screening

[JckNapier2]

As most here know, the letterboxed airing of Justice League will in fact be a cropped version (on both the tops and bottoms AND the sides) of the full frame airing, rather than a true widescreen image. Timm and Co. should be ashamed of themselves for purpatrating the myth that letterboxing cuts off image space rather than perserving what was intended. If they want us to watch the letterboxed version, they should have actually animated the show for widescreen display.
The point of letterboxing is not so the image can look "cool", but rather so the director's entire vision can be seen. Matted versions of 1.33 pictures do nothing to help the cause for acceptance of widescreen presentation. The letterboxed pictures from Justice League do not look theatrical, but rather cropped and crunched. I want to view everything that was animated for the show. If watching a letterboxed version achieved that (ie - the full frame version being cropped and blown up), then I would be the first to reserve tape space on Sundays. The Justice League is not created in true widescreen, thus it should not be shown as such.

Scott Mendelson

[Vigo Sprax]

I don't even see the point in showing it in widescreen on Sunday really, I mean...whats the point?

I hope the eventual DVD release is in full frame...Just another reason I'm glad I went with a TV that has a Widescreen enhanced mode instead of true widescreen.

[Karkull]

I was one of the first people to be excited about the Justice League in letterbox, but this new revelation ticks me off.

I'll have to see it tonight and make a judgement call.

[pencilsharp]

:confused: All right, let me make sure I understand this... Saturday's ep was the original and the "Widescreen" ep is cropped... And this is the way Bruce Timm wants it done? That not only sounds fruity to me, it kinda makes me reconsider defending him on the AICN boards.

Mr. Timm, if you are getting any feedback from this board, could you please focus more on the stories than on this gimmick?

~pS~

[Jimmy Kustes]

My reaction, too. Too bad my only chance to catch Secret Origins is tonight (I was working Saturday night). The Samurai Jack movie was shown five times over the weekend it premiered, and Justice League is only being shown twice over this weekend.

[Karkull]

Originally posted by duncanzits
The Samurai Jack movie was shown five times over the weekend it premiered, and Justice League is only being shown twice over this weekend.

I noticed that too. Why is Samurai Jack that important compared to Justice League? Why does it have to share a weekend with a Dexter's Laboratory marathon? And why isn't there a show afterwards where we hear from the creators? This sucks!

[dc-marvelite]

If (aside from personal preferences), a prime reason for letterbox is to show MORE of the visuals, then this false CROPPED letterbox is not something I will bother to watch since it shows LESS than the full screen version. Calling it letterbox is deceptive, even if it is "technically" true.

Although highly unlikely now (production lead in time etc..), I would rather that cartoon network utilize the extra time period for some JL spin off program or some other DC inspired show (how about a true Silver age Legion, anyone???)

[morrigan]

You guys, talk about ignorance being bliss. Timm just wants a more focused look. Believe me, I see your point. I will watch the shows, will tape both versions, buy the action figures, etc. However, we are not in a position to argue about every minute decision he or the company makes, and though I know Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker uncut is a definite counterexample, understand something: we are the same people begging and pleading for the show in the first place. It was a good show, a great great show. It reminds me of the people who complain about Star Wars (George Lucas and the Ewoks, or Jar Jar. or the special effects). Yeah, they test me when I watch, but hey, there will be people/characters that will annoy us, but bear in mind that it is us that asks these people(Lucas, Timm) to do these endeavors for our amusement. It's one thing if they grabbed us in the beginning, and lost us somewhere along the way, but someone else probably had their interest piqued just as we lost ours in the same show/movie watched. One can't please all of the people all of the time. As in life, one can't control all without impairing someone else's existence. I can't ask you to 180 your negative positions, but to simply sit back, and enjoy...I know I will.

[Jimmy Kustes]

Originally posted by Karkull


I noticed that too. Why is Samurai Jack that important compared to Justice League? Why does it have to share a weekend with a Dexter's Laboratory marathon? And why isn't there a show afterwards where we hear from the creators? This sucks!

Good point.

I could stand the Sunday morning showing being preempted if that means JL can get better ratings from the Dexter Goes Global but it should have been on twice during CCF.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

You know, you guys could just write a letter to CN saying you don't like the false widescreen.

I think people are just going to watch whatever version they want, to be honest. It won't even be about "support," it'll be about personal taste.

That said, I prefer the full screen version here.

[pencilsharp]

Why is Samurai Jack that important compared to Justice League? Why does it have to share a weekend with a Dexter's Laboratory marathon?
Why did Samurai Jack get so many airings?
Theory One: Genndy created Dexter's Laboratory, which continues to be one of CN's highest raters. He also helped develop PPG, another of CN's moneymakers. Why WOULDN'T they air it constantly? DL+PPG=A track record Steve "Cop Rock" Bochco would smile at.
Theory Two: Leave 'em hungry for me, and they'll come back faster! Besides, there's another new ep Monday night!
Theory Three:CN didn't have anything better to fill all that time... :rolleyes:
->Plas for JL Prez!<-
~pS~

[Calhoun07]

Back on topic.....


I am all for Justice League widescreen....IF IT WAS MADE IN WIDESCREEN! Just putting black bars on a picture to make it look more theatrical doesn't fly too well with me. But I understand it if they are doing it for the sake of widescreen TVs out there, but if that's the case, then ALL the airings should be in widescreen, and nobody would be none the wiser or complaining.

[Jimmy Kustes]

I didn't see the full screen, but if the letterbox version is just cropped out then what is the point? I was skeptical of a show made for television being in widescreen. The only cartoons on CN that should be in widescreen are the classics that were released originaly in theaters. Toonheads and Acme Hour would look much better in their original format.

I thought Samurai Jack and Justice League were one in the same. They have bumpers with the same announcer. Justice League even has more bumpers (or inbetweeners, whatever leads into the commercials) than Samurai Jack! Also I heard SJ and JL don't even air both on Friday! Maybe because SJ was not during November sweeps that the limited commercial breaks allowed commentary and more airings but I'm not sure.

[Mr. Obsession]

My understanding is that JL is storyboraded for widescreen but animated full screen (of course I could be wrong) and that all you're really missing in the matted version is some extra sky and the heroes boots.

However since the fullscreen version is the one that has the most in it that's the one I'll be taping.

[Maxie Zeus]

Well, if the "right" format is whatever the creators want, I guess Bruce Timm's passionate defense of the wide-screen version, and tale of fighting hard for it, settles it. Widescreen it is.

[James Harvey]

The episode was animated in full frame to appease the standards that Cartoon Network wanted for the series. Their original intent was to have the series done in widescreen. The only reason it is airing in full frame is becuase that is how CN wants it. The widescreen version is the true version hence the more compositive and tight, while the full frame version almost seems excessive. The widescreen version represents the director's and storyboarder's original vision, with the added art to just fill CN's requirements. I prefer the widescreen, personally.

[vandammage]

Originally posted by Mr. Obsession
My understanding is that JL is storyboraded for widescreen but animated full screen (of course I could be wrong) and that all you're really missing in the matted version is some extra sky and the heroes boots.

However since the fullscreen version is the one that has the most in it that's the one I'll be taping.

I agree with this post. I think you guys are picking nits. So you get a little more sky or earth. Big deal. What are you doing looking there anyway? You should be looking at the action. All the story is taking place in the center of the screen. You won't ever catch anything significant happening on the top or bottom of the screen. The widescreen device allows the creators to focus our attention where it belongs, not staring off at the sky.

Cropping a fullscreen picture that was designed for widescreen greatly increases the impact of the of the story. The creators chose the only smart avenue available. The alternative (pan 'n' scan) involves a lot of additional work post facto AND alters the creators' original vision (not to mention the impact of the material). Knowing they would need to plan for the future AND play to today's current aspect ratios (i.e. the paying client - CARTOON NETWORK - demanded a fullscreen version), they did the only smart thing they could do. . .they filled in the screen a bit (for full screen) and cropped with black (for widescreen). It doesn't change the fact the story was "designed" to be widescreen. calhoun07, IT WAS MADE IN WIDESCREEN! It's obvious you guys have never dealt in content creation of any sort and had to deal with multiple sizes.

Imagine for a second if Da Vinci had painted a little extra around the Mona Lisa. Does that make it better? I would argue no because suddenly you've made the Mona Lisa a little less important by including more extraneous stuff.

You guys would have a point if the stories were formatted bigger and then cropped tighter.

[Calhoun07]

You know, in the end, it makes little differnce to me to get worked up over either format. I am just happy to be seeing JL on TV. I am sure the DVDs, however, will be in widescreen only and I won't mind. You really aren't missing ANYTHING in the widescreen version. Anyway, doesn't ALL animation have edges that get cut off? We could spend the next 20 years wondering what we are missing, but the bottom line is nothing, because we are getting to see the meat of the product.

[Mr. Obsession]

Well now that I've read the the story on the news page (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12523) it's a good thing that I decided to tape the widescreen edition last night (and I had finally decided to start taping both versions until I found out which version is the true one). Well with Timm saying the widescreen is the way it's intended to be seen, that's the way it was storyboarded, then that's the way I'm taping it. Like I said before, all you're missing in the in the matted widescreen version is some extra sky and the heroes boots.

Now that doesn't meant that I won't be watching the new episodes on Monday nights, because that way I can keep up on the conversations (and waiting even longer for new JL ep's would drive me nuts :p). I'll just be taping the widescreen edition from now on -- until they stop the widescreen showings or start releasing the series on DVD (in order :mad: ).

[kid_flash]

Well, I watched part of the widescreen version of JL, and it looks really good. I was going back and forth on which to tape, but it's definitely gotta be widescreen. As everyone's said, it just looks tighter and more epic, and since that's the way it's meant to be, I gotta go with it.

[James Harvey]

I'll watch both, but the widescreen version is where it's at! It all boils down to personnel preferences, too. It's easy to tell that Timm wanted the series to be seen in widescreen becuase all of the preview tapes and screeners were released in the widescreen format. Hopefully the Sunday widescreen showing will be safe...

[Snake Plissken]

Damnit people!! Who the hell cares if you see more of the sky or more leg of Superman. The way youre SUPPOSED to see it is in widescreen. It was made
that way. Bruce Timm tells you why!

http://forums.toonzone.net/showthre...87969#post87969

[SSNTails]

Sorry, I don't fall for the "more suspense in widescreen" gimmick. I'm just as interested if it's a full picture or cropped.

If they've got the tops and bottoms matted, why NOT air them unmatted? Won't widescreen TVs automatically crop the top and bottoms off, anyway? If you've got more material, then show it!

Why let the extra animation you paid for go to waste?

[Snake Plissken]

JL was storyboarded in widescreen. The damn show is in widescreen! Only reason why Cartoon Network has a full screen version is because THEY DEMANDED A FULL SCREEN EDITION! Why the hell do you want to see more of the heros boots in the first place?

[Domino]

The main things I noticed missing from the widescreen version were the tops of Batman's ears. I want to see the whole ears!!

People need to lighten up on this topic!

[vandammage]

Call it a gimmick if you want (it's really NOT in this case).

Think of it in these terms. It's a bit more simplified, but it conveys the idea well.

Back in the early days of television (Honeymooners, I Love Lucy, etc.), Those in television and movies put a single camera down and recorded everything that happened. Basically it was unframed in any sense of the word. The action took place in the existing frame. Close-ups were rare.

Finally as filming/taping techniques became more advanced, filmmakers began using the much more sophisticated techniques that you see nowadays. Today close-ups, multiple setups, reaction shots, motion through the field of vision (instead of across the field of vision) are commonplace and it makes for much more sophisticated storytelling.

Including all the extraneous top/bottom stuff is like always shooting in wide vision. It removes the focus. I can guarantee you that Dini and company aren't going to be spending an inordinate amount of time animating the perimeter. They'll be animating the stuff that appears in frame (widescreen frame), there just might be a little spillover extra stuff at the top and bottom that happens to be animated because it started in frame.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by vandammage
Back in the early days of television (Honeymooners, I Love Lucy, etc.), Those in television and movies put a single camera down and recorded everything that happened. Basically it was unframed in any sense of the word. The action took place in the existing frame. Close-ups were rare.

Finally as filming/taping techniques became more advanced, filmmakers began using the much more sophisticated techniques that you see nowadays. Today close-ups, multiple setups, reaction shots, motion through the field of vision (instead of across the field of vision) are commonplace and it makes for much more sophisticated storytelling.


Mmm, not to nitpick, but movies have been using close-ups, multiple setups, reaction shots, etc. since the days of D.W. Griffith (who invented most of them). Television eschewed them for the "three camera" system because of economics (you needed to get it in the can as quickly and cheaply as possible), not because they didn't know how to do them.

Television animation has been even quicker to deploy these techniques, precisely because it is no more expensive to draw and animate a reaction shot or closeup than anything else. Even an old H-B cheapie like "Scooby Doo, Where Are You?" is chock full of them.

[Heehaw]

Not all theatrical films, that are in widescreen, were shot in true widescreen. Some directors, like Stanley Kubrick, would shoot a movie in fullscreen and then matte it into widescreen for it's theatrical release(The Shining, Eyes Wide Shut, Full Metal Jacket). Another reason he did it this way was to insure that when the movie went to video or TV(where it would most assuredly be hacked into fullscreen), the viewer would still see all of the information in the theatrical version. If the films had been shot in true widescreen, then the viewer would lose some information when it was reformatted.

The Justice League series has been storyboarded in widescreen, so the Sunday broadcast is the only one that is pure and what Timm and crew are shooting for. The information that is covered up by the bars is extraneous and was never meant to be seen. The fullscreen version exists to satisfy CN and the masses who seem to be afraid of those "little black bars". As I stated, the way it is done with JL is not what you normally associate with the technique, but it is nothing new; thus there is nothing deceptive about the letterboxing in JL. IT HASN'T BEEN CROPPED, THAT IS WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE.

I hope the eventual DVD release is in full frame...Just another reason I'm glad I went with a TV that has a Widescreen enhanced mode instead of true widescreen.

I'm not sure what that means, but I'd guess you have a square monitor and it somehow makes the fullframe into widescreen(by placing LBX bars)? If so, you'll be asking for trouble. All that is doing is cutting off picture. A true widescreen TV is the way to go, especially if the DVD releases are in anamorphic widescreen. If they aren't anamorphic well then it won't really matter if you have a WS TV or not.

One day, not too far off, HDTV is going to be the norm. Anyone who doesn't think that, is naive. Most HDTV sets are widescreen, so most of us are going to have 16x9 sets; thus you have a letterboxed JL. Of course, if it isn't broadcast in HD, then you won't get the benefit of the TV frame being completely utilized. And no, widescreen TVs don't reformat a picture into widescreen. If it is in fullscreen, you will have square picture in the middle of you rectangular screen with bars on the side instead of the top and bottom. A true HDTV broadcast or an anamorphic transfer on a DVD is the only way to fill a widescreen picture frame. Sure they have features that will make a fullscreen into a widescreen, but all that is doing is stretching and distorting the image which makes about as much sense as watching an anamorphic widescreen version of a movie on a regular TV set just so you don't have to see those "little black bars". :)

[Heehaw]

Something to think about...

More than likely, the widescreen broadcasts of Justice League will go the way of the Romans one day. It is very likely that it will since it is a somewhat radical idea(for American TV anyway)...especially since it involves animation. And we all know that animation is just for kids :rolleyes: who don't want to watch a bunch of ugly black bars...

Here is my point to all of this. I think Timm and crew produced JL using a widescreen matte technique for the same reasons Stanley Kubrick did what he did: to keep their original vision intact, at least as much as possible, seeing how they knew/know that it will be hacked my some editor into pan and scan. IF the show had been animated in TRUE widescreen, then the demise of the WS broadcasts would leave us with a fullscreen one, which would be simply be a hacked up pan and scan version of the widescreen one. Imagine the scene at the end of the pilot where the team is standing shoulder to shoulder. If that was panned and scanned, 2 or 3 of the characters would be cut off, and it would remain that way forever since the widescreen broadcast was gone. Because the WS broadcasts will more than likely cease, one day, simply matting the picture preserves their original intention, but also insures against picture loss in the future.

Timm and crew win both ways. The widescreen broadcast is what is pure(and also paves the way for HDTV), and the fullframe one doesn't delete any of the picture since it doesn't have to be reformatted. It saves time, minimizes headache, preserves intent, and most importantly: saves money...

I'll take the matte.

[Figaro]

I prefer letterboxing. I won't go into the reasons, as they have all been stated several times above. However, I will say that I think we should be glad that we even have a choice as to what format we watch it in. I guess I don't see much point in arguing about it...if you wanna watch the full-screen version, that's OK. If you wanna watch the letterbox version, that's OK. It's a quality show either way.

By thy side,

Figaro

[James Harvey]

I hear ya, Figaro! I like having the choice. Plus it's just cool seeing the show in two formats. It's a really cool direction for the network to take. But it is all up to personel preference in the end. It's unfair to bash either format becuase both have their advantages & disadvantages.

[Vigo Sprax]

Originally posted by Heehaw
I'm not sure what that means, but I'd guess you have a square monitor and it somehow makes the fullframe into widescreen(by placing LBX bars)? If so, you'll be asking for trouble. All that is doing is cutting off picture. A true widescreen TV is the way to go, especially if the DVD releases are in anamorphic widescreen. If they aren't anamorphic well then it won't really matter if you have a WS TV or not.

Ah, you kinda get the idea. Widscreen Enhanced mode, for 4:3, TVs take the 16:9 source and only renders the picture in that 16:9 box, meaning the TV doesn't spend the time rendering the black bars which therefore results in superior picture quality than a standard 4:3 and that is equal to a standard 16:9 TV. For this to work with DVDs they have to be anamorphic.

The reason I'm happy I decided to go with 4:3 is because widespread HDTV programming just gets being pushed farther back and it will be some time, time enough for me to buy a new TV, before it becomes common place. Not to mention all of the anime DVDs that I have that are in 4:3.