Moral Questions

[The Guard]

Ok. First, this is the best damn thing I've seen in a long time. Now...

Did it bother anyone that the heroes outright KILLED the aliens? I mean...I assume melting is killing them. We know they aren't machines, because the Carter one was pretty intelligent, as were the three scientists. Yet the heroes just killed them. Granted, Hawkgirl, GL, and Wonder Woman did most of it, but they ripped open the roof to fry the aliens. With a Boy Scout like Superman, and Batman...I figured maybe death was to be avoided. Or is it just that aliens aren't human, so who cares? I realize the world was threatened, but even so...

[Mr. Obsession]

Well like Hawkgirl said, where she's from it's strike first or die.

Actually what bothered me a bit was that MM was forcible holding the Leader blob-thingy in the light.

[The Guard]

Lol. Leader-blob-thingie? The Imperium. That explains Hawkgirl. That doesn't explain Superman, Wonder Woman or Green Lantern...

[Mr. Obsession]

What do you want? I'm bad with names. :p

Well for WW and GL we'll probably have to wait and see how they develop the characters to make a judgment call on what they did, and the next episode should give us a good look at GL. But it could be said that the heroes were attempting to force the aliens to retreat from the planet and didn't mean to kill them. Except for MM, he had already seen one planet ravaged by the invaders and may not have wanted to live with himself if he saw it happen again.

[AmazonPrincess]

I could be wrong here, and I am a newbie :) but I think that if it comes down to taking an invader's life or letting them take over the earth, the taking of life is justified. At the point they were killing the aliens, it seemed to be kill or be killed (plus the whole popluation of the earth hung in the balance, as evidenced by what happened on Mars), so it was necessary. Sad, but necessary.

[JLU Dude]

Originally posted by AmazonPrincess
I could be wrong here, and I am a newbie :) but I think that if it comes down to taking an invader's life or letting them take over the earth, the taking of life is justified. At the point they were killing the aliens, it seemed to be kill or be killed (plus the whole popluation of the earth hung in the balance, as evidenced by what happened on Mars), so it was necessary. Sad, but necessary.

I agree. Sometimes, leathal measures are the only way.

[kid_flash]

Very true. I was suprised by the force used against the aliens. Really, the entire League was understandable here with the exception of Superman and maybe the Flash.

But man, there was some intensity here that I don't think we ever saw on WB except for a few Beyond episodes. The way the Imperium dived into J'onn's skin like that was just creepy.

[Karkull]

Originally posted by Gotham Dude
I agree. Sometimes, leathal measures are the only way.

War is hell. The Justice League acted appropriately.

[Karkull]

Actually, the only person with a real problem with killing is Batman--and we never actually saw him kill any of them. At the end he busied himself with freeing the hostages. I don't think that the Flash killed any of them either.

However, unlike in the comics, this version of Superman can kill when necessary. He let Jax-Ur and Mala fall into a black hole in Absolute Power, he let the Preserver get sucked into space in The Main Man, and was willing to kill Darkseid and his henchmen in Legacy (and this isn't counting all the aliens he killed while under control of Darkseid).

As for Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, and J'onn J'onzz--they knew that it was necessary.

[Calhoun07]

It's not any more murder than Tony Soprano murders people. In the Sopranos, Tony Soprano explains that he doesn't murder people, he is just fighting a war, and sometimes there are casualties. There was a war, the Justice League fought it, and there were casualties. Nothing immoral about it.

[Kal-el]

I wonder if after seeing JL the opinions on the JL vs. X-men thread might be different?

Anyways, killing is killing. As Cal said, there was a war, JL fought, and there were casualties. The JL were the only ones that could save the planet and did so by the necessary means.

[metaphysician]

Originally posted by calhoun07
It's not any more murder than Tony Soprano murders people. In the Sopranos, Tony Soprano explains that he doesn't murder people, he is just fighting a war, and sometimes there are casualties. There was a war, the Justice League fought it, and there were casualties. Nothing immoral about it.

"Tony Soprano"??!! Are you REALLY sure thats the parallel you want to draw??

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by metaphysician


"Tony Soprano"??!! Are you REALLY sure thats the parallel you want to draw??

LOL. Well, I couldn't think of anything else, and I had recently watched the second season of the Sopranos. And I dunno...in a glamourized kind of light, the mobsters from the Sopranos could be seen as heroes saving their world.

[Ruffian]

Me surprised, not at all. Those aliens were parasites like the show said (I think...). Eh... everyone else has said what I would have said at this point. :)

[Ed Liu]

Howdy all,

There have been a lot of fairly good explanations of why the JL had to "kill" the aliens to save the planet in the pilot episode.

That said, it still bothers me to no end that they did. For whatever reason, the taking of a life is a taboo for most of the heroes we see in comics today. A lot of modern comics have tried to deal with why the heroes choose to do this. My favorites are probably Alan Moore's Superman saying that, "Nobody has the right to choose to take a life, not even Superman. ESPECIALLY not Superman," and the Lone Ranger's use of silver bullets to remind him of the high cost of taking a man's life.

The reasons are almost irrelevant, though. Killing sentinent beings is just not what the JL does, and they killed a bunch of them in the premiere episode. If they're willing to kill these aliens, then why don't they start going on a witch hunt throughout the DC Universe? Why not kill the Joker, who has taken probably thousands of comic-book lives? Killing something is a line that shouldn't be crossed lightly, IMO, and that's one of the major weak points of the premiere episode.

In the _New World Order_ storyline of the Grant Morrison run of the JLA comic, the JL faces a similar situation of an invading alien force, and they dealt with it without incurring a single alien casualty. They even use the fact that they didn't kill any of them later on in the series for an interesting little 2-part story. Killing the aliens was an efficient way to keep the story moving, but I question whether it was worth it.

I'm not sure what bugs me more: the fact that Timm's JL essentially murdered a number of the invaders, or the fact that so few people are bothered by this and even feel the need to justify it.

-- Ed/Ace

[Karkull]

The reason that they'll kill a bunch of nameless aliens and not the Joker is simple--Joker brings in more advertising dollars than the aliens did.

:D

Honestly, Ace the Bathound, you bring up a valid point, but the fact remains that...well...there really isn't a very good answer. It just boils down to the fact that these were aliens that wanted to destroy our [the DCU's] civilization. The League did what needed to be done in order to ensure the survival of our species.

Besides, they should have killed the pale Martians in the JLA book too.

[DR. BELCH]

--that they, the aliens, were the aggressors. I'd think equally as little of killing a few thousand Taliban soldiers. I wouldn't attack a man on the street but feel within my rights to cripple him with a baseball bat if he breaks into my house and threatens my family. And I don't consider myself an especially brutal person; for me it's simply a matter of honor.
As for killing, Superman was told in the comics that he could've killed Brainiac. When he told the para that he didn't mean to hurt him, he explained, "No, I mean you should have killed him." The man's reasoning was that Brainac would just be patched up and released, so he could hurt more people--that is, the death of one deranged schmuck would be preferable to the pain of dozens.

[I Love My Boyfriend!]

Well like, killing or taking anyone's life is just totally wrong and unkewl.

But like when you talk about the moral of what happen in the big fight with the justice league and the Alien thingys , there isn't really a right or wrong answer in that.

It's all for survival, like they say in science class, it's the survival of the fittest.
It's either them or us.
I mean like only the strong survive, it's almost like the way we kill certain animals to eat them for food to survive and that in a way is kindna like immoral, but it's essential for survival.

The ugly alien thingys came to earth and they were going to take over the world.
So of course the justice league had to stop them in anyway they could.
But, when it came down to it, the only way to stop them was to melt them away.
It's like, if a evil intruder came to your home trying to harm your family ,
of course like you would do all you can to protect the safety of your family ,even when it comes to extreme measures.
Even if it's still just a cartoon show , there's like messages little kids can pick up,
so like it's really important for the show to set up a good moral for the little kids watching.
And like a person said before it was totally like a big war , not even superman could stop them on his own and he's like really super powerful and stuff.

And speaking of superman , there is like this really great new show called Smallville which is about superman when he was like a teenager.
It is a really good show ! and it's voted the new hit of this season in Seventeen Magazine and not to mention Tom welling the guy that plays the teenage superman is a major hottie and totally kissalicious.
And the show has totally awesome music too,
The opening theme song for the show is by the music group called Remy Zero.
And they are so good and totally kewl.
I hope you people check it out.

And like, Have a Happy Thanksgiving everybody !

[Lodoss War Fan]

Originally posted by I Love My Boyfriend!
The ugly alien thingys came to earth and they were going to take over the world.

LOL :) that cracked me up, so that's what they were I thought they were parasite species. I guess there "ugly alien thingys " then.


Originally posted by I Love My Boyfriend!
It's like, if a evil intruder came to your home trying to harm your family ,
of course like you would do all you can to protect the safety of your family ,even when it comes to extreme measures.

correct me if I'm wrong but aren't intruders already evil or have malice on their minds. So what happens if a good intruder came along???


Originally posted by I Love My Boyfriend!
And speaking of superman , there is like this really great new show called Smallville which is about superman when he was like a teenager..

I agree pretty good show ;)


Originally posted by I Love My Boyfriend!
The opening theme song for the show is by the music group called Remy Zero.
And they are so good and totally kewl.

Great Band! :D

Listen don't take me seriously, I was just playing around. :)

[Domino]

Originally posted by The Guard

Did it bother anyone that the heroes outright KILLED the aliens

Yes, it bothered me a lot. These have been my heroes all my life and killing was never a casual thing with any of them.

That said, every incarnation of these heroes is a mutually exclusive interpretation, and if I get too upset over that, then my father's objections from Superman the Movie (1978) become valid. He said, "Krypton was never an ice planet, and Marlon Brando was too old to play Jor-El." Well, since I enjoyed Superman the Movie for what it was, I will enjoy this series for what it is.

It's like the Crisis on Infinite Earths, which retconned away the very existence of Earth-2. People got very upset over it, because the stories of Earth-2 never happened. And yet, when I want to read Earth-2 stories, all I have to do is dig into my back issues and read All-Star Squadron or Infinity Inc. They're still there, and you know what? My old Justice Leagues are still there, too. I can always go back and read them when I want to see my favorite heroes act the way I am used to seeing them act. It's all a matter of perspective.

[Mr. Obsession]

Well here's a thought, I was watching "Secret Origins" again yesterday (putting off finishing my history paper today :D) and J'onn did say that the Imperium (previously referred to as "the Leader blob-thingy" ;)) was the central intelligence for the invaders. So perhaps the invaders, on an individual basis, aren't sentient, and thus the League did not commit murder.