What's the deal with "deep" endings?

[Chimera]

I'm getting really sick of these stories having no conclusion, resolution, or payoff for the 13 hours I invest in them. Why is it so fashionable for writers in Japan to leave the story unexplained? It really doesn't make the story seem more complex or better written. It just makes the writing seem lazy and contrived. Apparently, stories with interesting plots that build to a satisfying conclusion are for stupid people, and should be avoided at all costs.

If they really want to leave it up to the viewer, they could at least provide a full explanation on their website (or in a magazine, as a DVD insert, etc.) for those of us who want to know.

This especially bothers me because many American television programs are critisized for their episodic nature (aka "they don't have a real plot"). I consider a story without a conclusion (or a good explanation for an open-ended conclusion) to not have a real plot either.

[RAINMAN]

The only shows that are deep are the ones people THINK ARE DEEP. As far I`m concern there is no such thing as a deep show in any from of anitmation.

[Juu-kuchi]

Probably the production crew's last-ditch effort to end the anime with a lasting impression regardless of positive or negative feedback.

[AstroNerdBoy]

I'm getting really sick of these stories having no conclusion, resolution, or payoff for the 13 hours I invest in them. Why is it so fashionable for writers in Japan to leave the story unexplained? It really doesn't make the story seem more complex or better written. It just makes the writing seem lazy and contrived. Apparently, stories with interesting plots that build to a satisfying conclusion are for stupid people, and should be avoided at all costs.
Most anime is based off of manga titles or even novel and/or short stories ("Slayers", "Full Metal Panic"). So there may be a desire on the part of Japanese sponsors (the guys paying to have the anime done) to get a series out. So once a title is licensed for anime production, the anime writers take the available source material and make an anime series. In some cases, the manga continues even after the anime runs its series.

However, the ratings may not justify a 2nd series, or there may not be a desire to have a 2nd series.

For example, take "Kare Kano". Gainax got the rights to do the anime and used the first 8-9 manga volumes to produce 26 anime episodes. The the anime series ended, it was clear there was still more story to tell. The manga is still being published in Japan and there's more than enough material for a 2nd series. So why isn't there a 2nd series to continue the story? Simple. The manga artist (Tsuda-sensei) did not like how Gainax treated the series. She wanted the focus to be on the romance with the humor taking a 2nd seat. Gainax wanted a focus on the humor with the romance taking a 2nd seat. Thus, there will never be a 2nd series unless Gainax turns the anime rights over to another company.

Take "Fruits Basket". While it has a decent ending, there are still many unanswered questions. The manga is still being published in Japan and there's enough material to at least do a 13-episode series (if not a 24-episode series), but the sponsors aren't hot to trot to produce another series.

For "Neon Genesis Evangelion", that was the director's decision and the Japanese audience was very pissed about it. :sweat:

Give me a list of titles you are refering to and if I know something, I'll post it.


This especially bothers me because many American television programs are critisized for their episodic nature (aka "they don't have a real plot"). I consider a story without a conclusion (or a good explanation for an open-ended conclusion) to not have a real plot either.
Well, it has a plot, just one that didn't conclude to your satisfaction. There is a difference. American TV producers fear serial series because they think you can't gain new audience members in such a series. So in their minds, it is better to have episodic series that people can get into at any time.

Of course the facts prove that this doesn't matter. If a series is well written, it can be serial in nature and dominate the ratings (as "24" did). Folks will find ways of getting caught up, thanks in no small part to the Internet. An episodic series can still get crappy ratings despite the gimics of the producers/writers if the stories suck.

[AstroNerdBoy]

Double post (which annoys some folks for some odd reason, but oh well...)


The only shows that are deep are the ones people THINK ARE DEEP. As far I`m concern there is no such thing as a deep show in any from of anitmation.
Obviously, your exposure is very limited as is your thinking. I mean no disrespect there because my parents would agree with you. To them, animation is a kids thing, nothing more.

So, I could get them to watch "Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-ohki" (lets assume it didn't have any nudity) and no matter how good it was, they would go, "Eh." Why? Because animation is not for telling well-written, layered stories. However, if I took Kajishima-sensei's tale and made it into a live-action version, they'd become very interested and would appreciate the writing and the layers of the story.

Some of the best written titles I've seen have been anime titles. I don't see how "Gunslinger Girl" could ever be made into a live action title. The outcry of seeing pre-pubecent girls as cold blooded assassins would shock the crap out of most folks. Yet as an anime title, it is able to get away with this while retaining much of its punch.

*shrugs*

I think that anime titles can be deep and there are titles that are deep. However, it depends on if you can see the story for what it is, of if you only see a cartoon.

[Notintheface]

In other words you want more happy or "shallow" endings? You may need to start watching different types of shows. Have you tried watching some less serious shows?

[Ferquin]

Here's Anime News Network's Answerman's answer:




Dear Ms. Answerman,

What's up with Anime endings? I've been watching anime for years now and I've seen less then a handful of shows with endings that made sense and were an "ending". So many shows seem to come unglued towards the end, they become messy nonsense and conclude with anti-endings that leave the watcher confused, angry, disappointed, or all three. Is there any particular reason for this? Is this some face of Japanese culture I am just not getting?

-Soliptic

There are a number of reasons for ambiguous endings in anime. A lot of American viewers get frustrated when they invest so much time in a series only to get stuck with an unfulfilling ending; something that doesn’t tie up all the loose ends or really even explain what’s going on. First and foremost, there’s a fundamental difference between American storytelling and Japanese storytelling; one isn’t better than the other, they’re simply different. American storytelling favors highly lucid, clear-cut endings that tie up every loose end and explain everything. The Japanese (and many other places in the world), if you read their literature or watch their non-Anime films, tend to favor ambiguous endings that don’t tell you everything but set things up so you can fill in the blanks for yourself. Sometimes it might seem needlessly ambiguous, but sometimes if you watch closely they tell you what you need to know to “assume” what happens after the show ends. A lot of people get really annoyed with this, some people love it. It’s all a matter of personal preference.

[Zechs]

The only shows that are deep are the ones people THINK ARE DEEP. As far I`m concern there is no such thing as a deep show in any from of anitmation. You haven't been watching much anime then. There are some animes that are deep and most of them I've seen are pretty good. If you want a bunch of brain dead morons doing stupid things then there are animes that you may enjoy. As for animation can never ever be deep you are wrong and not much of an anime fan.

[Karl Olson]

Take "Fruits Basket". While it has a decent ending, there are still many unanswered questions. The manga is still being published in Japan and there's enough material to at least do a 13-episode series (if not a 24-episode series), but the sponsors aren't hot to trot to produce another series.

1. Fruits Basket was a 26.
2. The director of Fruits Basket said he wants to do more.
3. Fruits Basket is still fairly hot property in Japan, managing to sell to not the target demo of girls, but pulling a substantial male readership and viewership as well.

If anything, it's probably has more to do with the director waiting for the manga to end before running off another set of episodes (as is the case with Hellsing.)

As far as deep endings are concerned, part of it is whether a person is getting the ending (if you don't get what's inferred, then of course you're not going to be satisfied) and a part of it is whether said person prefers subtly over ham-fisted explanations.

Personally, as utterly strange as the endings to stuff like Lain, Eva, Wolf's Rain, Big O 2, FLCL and a host of other shows are, I'll take that over the pounded-into-your-face endings some anime have (Tenchi Universe spells everything out in 9000pt bold extended type, which is fine given the content of that show, but would you really want that kind of ending on Eva?) Every once and while, you get a Cowboy Bebop; something with a ending that's profound and easy to understand. However, you're usually going to get a easy to understand ending with nominal impact, or a weird ending that if you're versed in philosophy, makes sense.

Atleast that's my personal experience.

[RogueMartian]

The only shows that are deep are the ones people THINK ARE DEEP. As far I`m concern there is no such thing as a deep show in any from of anitmation.
On this board, them's fightin words. What animes have you seen? There are many that are simple humor, but there are also many that are brilliant and you can spend hours debating. Love it or hate it Eva has sparked a decade of debate. Lain has so much subtlety you will never get it all. Even the more comedic ones like my two current favs Fruits Basket and Hunter X Hunter. Yes they are comedies, but on the other hand they have their dramatic points as well. You get to watch as characters grow and change (especially if you read the mangas). I've probably watched Princess Mononoke a dozen times, and I never get tired of it, it's themes are so varied and the animation is so beautiful, I can't imagine how people complain about it.

Okay, rant over, so people want conclusions? Overrated if you ask me. I've ripped more than enough american series and movies a new one for being over simplified and having an ending I hated. But your poor anime addled mind needs an anime conclusion, so i'll give you some:
(btw i will not spoil anything, but it makes proving my analysis difficult)

Cowboy Bebop is a brilliant show, with many layers and characters that you watch go through their time and then the conclusion is finite. Whatever little questions you might have at the end can't be that important to the plot.

Vision of Escaflowne is another one. Okay, so you hate the series, you think it's a bad mix of shoujo and shonen and you really hate the ending. But it does have a beginning, middle, climax, and ending.

Trigun has an open ended kind of ending. Kind of an old fashioned western "walking into the sunset" kind of ending. Could be a sequel, just like many cowboy movies, but do you really need anymore than they've given you? The "villains" are gone and vash is able to find his own path in life. That was the point. Oh? Not good enough? Then you probably want the all out adam sandler ending. You want every character to show you the completion and then be married with kids at the end. If that's the case, give it up, cause it's NEVER going to happen. Not in any of the ones i mention.

Except kind of in Blue Gender. This one never really struck me as an open ended one. Beginning, middle, climax, conclusion. You may hate the series, but it doesn't screw with you like eva or big o.

Since I've mentioned the other two major space westerns I might as well mention the third. Outlaw Star. Open ending: Yes, but does it conclude everythign you've seen quite well: yes. You got your wish, happy?

Pick a Gundam any Gundam. Love them or hate them, they are one of the few that break the 13/26 rule because they're designed around their own story. Which means they get conclusions. They leave themselves a little open for sequels, but so does casablanca if you think about it. I had no problem with the endings of MS Gundam, Gundam Wing, 0083, and the endings of a couple of others.

GTO. Yeah I said it. Here's another walking into the sunset kind of ending. And with anime, your lucky if you get that half the time. Most of them are based on mangas that are continuing, so you often get weird or open endings that solve nothing.

Serial Expirements Lain....probably shouldn't go here, i'll get yelled at for this one the most. I wasn't hugely into the show, but I understood it for the most part and while the ending doesn't make a lot of sense, if you think about it (or more likely ask someone else who thought about it) you get the storyline and conclusion and are content with it.

The Rurouni Kenshin series doesn't help you much, but it gets a great conclusion in it's ova. Which is more than I can say for hunter x hunter. God I hope they do more ovas.

FLCL had a conclusion. Again the show was so weird and messed up you're probably wondering what happened. But overall you get the idea. Weird crap came down and forced naota to deal with some stuff and in the end he's better for it. You are left with more questions about what happened mroe than what will happen next, so I will put that under successful conclusion.

You want something more recent eh? Okay how about midori no hibi? This one managed to give you a cute story and a good conclusion in 13 episodes AND better still, the manga is still going on. You get the best of both worlds. You want the anime and conclusion: got it! You want more story before a conclusion: got that too!

K, that's all I got for now, maybe someone else can help me out and back me up with a few more animes that I haven't seen yet. I hear fushigi yuugi and

[Chimera]

Trigun has an open ended kind of ending. Kind of an old fashioned western "walking into the sunset" kind of ending. Could be a sequel, just like many cowboy movies, but do you really need anymore than they've given you? The "villains" are gone and vash is able to find his own path in life. That was the point. Oh? Not good enough? Then you probably want the all out adam sandler ending. You want every character to show you the completion and then be married with kids at the end. If that's the case, give it up, cause it's NEVER going to happen. Not in any of the ones i mention.
There's a huge difference between a needlessy conclusive ending and an ending that is passably conlcusive. I personally hate how cleanly most movies and American serial shows wrap up, but I'd prefer some kind of explanation over nothing at all.

Big-O 2 really burned me with this concept. I absolutely loved Big-O and most of Big-O 2, and couldn't wait to see the concluding episodes. But, in my opinion, the ending was not good enough. I was not entertained or satisfied, and felt outright cheated.

[RogueMartian]

There's a huge difference between a needlessy conclusive ending and an ending that is passably conlcusive. I personally hate how cleanly most movies and American serial shows wrap up, but I'd prefer some kind of explanation over nothing at all.

Big-O 2 really burned me with this concept. I absolutely loved Big-O and most of Big-O 2, and couldn't wait to see the concluding episodes. But, in my opinion, the ending was not good enough. I was not entertained or satisfied, and felt outright cheated.
I agree with you on that one. Big O was a mystery show where NOTHING was explained. That and I thought the second season flat out sucked. Okay, the blonde guy is funny. But that wasn't enough for me. I begged, prayed, hoped for a second season. I got my wish, and after I got it, I suddenly thought: you know, the original ending wasn't that bad. If you're willing to accept that the show was about the relationship between roger and dorothy, the fact that they end up fighting the onslaught of robots that plan to destroy the city and possibly cause a second mass forgetfulness isn't so bad. It's better than whatever that was that happened at the end of the second season.

But we have to admit that animes have about three kinds of endings. (1) oops the funding/manga ran out, time to stop. (2)Everything disappears and all coherency of plot is lost. (3)Casablanca/American Western style ending where the major stuff is concluded but a few loose ends are left to the viewers imagination.

For this sake of this we'll stick to 2 and 3.
I suppose I don't understand what is so bad about a few things being left to the imagination. It seems good because it forces you to really think about the characters and the story. Take the ending of eva for example. Angry weren't you? Boy did you start wondering what that ending meant. You tried to put it into some western spin on it to make it make sense. Thankfully the resulting stroke was only minor. And that is sort of a good thing (the thinking, not the stroke). You must consider the characters, their past as it has been explained and the story that you have seen and think about what you believe happened. What you interpret and what I interpret may be different.

But the more you think about it the more you realize that while the story, the plot, the mysteries, the things that the characters witness were important, it's the characters development (usually) that takes priority. Do you really need to know what Vash and Knives really are and what their future with humanity is or is it just more important that these two just had a centuries long battle that has finally been concluded.

Well to each his own. Each ending has it's merits and downsides.

[William C. Maune]

I have a feeling this topic has arisen due to the recent ending in Wolf's Rain. An ending which, in my opinion, was something that has pretty much been done a lot before and yet the series itself didn't do anything good enough (i.e. take the same ideas, but do it better) or original enough to justify using that type of ending again.

[AstroNerdBoy]

1. Fruits Basket was a 26.
2. The director of Fruits Basket said he wants to do more.
3. Fruits Basket is still fairly hot property in Japan, managing to sell to not the target demo of girls, but pulling a substantial male readership and viewership as well.
1. Yeah, I know that. :p Furuba is one of my top-10 anime titles and only the 2nd title I purchased without seeing the whole thing first. I was refering to a sequel series. There's more than enough material to do a short series of 12 to 13 episodes (as "Ai Yori Aoshi ~Enishi~" did as the sequel to the original AYA). However, there should be enough manga material to do a 24-episode series if they so desire (to say nothing of a 26-episode series).

2. I'm told he wouldn't mind doing more, but the impression I got was that he wasn't pushing the issue.

3. Yeah, that's what I hear as well. As such, it is very possible that the manga won't end for some time. Furuba seems to be gaining here as well thanks to positive word of mouth.


If anything, it's probably has more to do with the director waiting for the manga to end before running off another set of episodes (as is the case with Hellsing.)
Maybe. But someone I know in Japan posted on the director's BBS. He said that the reason there hasn't been a sequel already is that the sponsors haven't asked for one. If the sponsors don't pony up, there won't be a sequel.


As far as deep endings are concerned, part of it is whether a person is getting the ending (if you don't get what's inferred, then of course you're not going to be satisfied) and a part of it is whether said person prefers subtly over ham-fisted explanations.
I suppose that fits for "Video Girl Ai". The ending left me less than satisfied, but there are those who loved it. A 2nd viewing softened my opinion a bit though. :p


Personally, as utterly strange as the endings to stuff like Lain, Eva, Wolf's Rain, Big O 2, FLCL and a host of other shows are, I'll take that over the pounded-into-your-face endings some anime have (Tenchi Universe spells everything out in 9000pt bold extended type, which is fine given the content of that show, but would you really want that kind of ending on Eva?) Every once and while, you get a Cowboy Bebop; something with a ending that's profound and easy to understand. However, you're usually going to get a easy to understand ending with nominal impact, or a weird ending that if you're versed in philosophy, makes sense.

Atleast that's my personal experience.
EVA is the most extreme of the nearly 200 anime titles I've seen. Believe you me, I was out searching the web for some answers to the smegged up questions I had. I found them all and now EVA is a more enjoyable title to me.

[AstroNerdBoy]

There's a huge difference between a needlessy conclusive ending and an ending that is passably conlcusive. I personally hate how cleanly most movies and American serial shows wrap up, but I'd prefer some kind of explanation over nothing at all.

Big-O 2 really burned me with this concept. I absolutely loved Big-O and most of Big-O 2, and couldn't wait to see the concluding episodes. But, in my opinion, the ending was not good enough. I was not entertained or satisfied, and felt outright cheated.
As was I. Actually, I didn't think much of "Big O" the first time I saw it on CN. The story arc was interesting, but the required mecha battles in every episode just annoyed me. However, I happened to re-watch episode 1 and I was startled by what I saw, enough that I rented the series and watched the Japanese version. Events in the first episode were linked to the events in the final episode. Suddenly, "Big O" took on a new life.

With the 2nd season of the series, I looked forward to the answers, but found them lacking as you did. I came to one conclusion -- when the writers wrote the first 13 episodes, they had no clue as to the ending. As such, the ending they came up with was the only one they could do. It sucked, but any other ending would have been worse (IMO).

Titles that have a clear ending in mind tend to be better written as everything is done to get to that goal.

[Karl Olson]

1. Yeah, I know that. :p Furuba is one of my top-10 anime titles and only the 2nd title I purchased without seeing the whole thing first. I was refering to a sequel series. There's more than enough material to do a short series of 12 to 13 episodes (as "Ai Yori Aoshi ~Enishi~" did as the sequel to the original AYA). However, there should be enough manga material to do a 24-episode series if they so desire (to say nothing of a 26-episode series).

2. I'm told he wouldn't mind doing more, but the impression I got was that he wasn't pushing the issue.

Probably because he's already doing sequels for older projects of his, and working on launching brand new projects. Basically, he's always busy as heck at the moment anyway. He has no reason to push the issue at the moment. As far as sequel length, I'd like to see it be completed in a shot to reduce the risk animation-style change between series.


3. Yeah, that's what I hear as well. As such, it is very possible that the manga won't end for some time. Furuba seems to be gaining here as well thanks to positive word of mouth.

Which means I doubt Daichi will be hyped to do any more Furuba any time soon. He doesn't want to be caught out in another Kodocha where he's got to write filler. However, when it's done and he can go into adapting it, I'd bet dollars to donuts that Funimation will co-fund it to boot when the option arises. They've already done some co-pro work, so the money for more Furuba's there.


Maybe. But someone I know in Japan posted on the director's BBS. He said that the reason there hasn't been a sequel already is that the sponsors haven't asked for one. If the sponsors don't pony up, there won't be a sequel.

Geneon USA's been co-funding a bunch of stuff via the same studio that was executive lead on Hellsing (Rondo Robe.) Hellsing sells a lot of discs for Geneon USA. If the opportunity arose, I'd bet they co-fund if not outright fund a Hellsing sequel. Besides, the Executive Producer of Hellsing, the man in charge of the money and the organization, was at SakuraCon2004, and when asked there about more Hellsing, his response was that he'd like the manga wrapped up or near wrapping up first, which implies that he figures he can work out the money issues.


EVA is the most extreme of the nearly 200 anime titles I've seen. Believe you me, I was out searching the web for some answers to the smegged up questions I had. I found them all and now EVA is a more enjoyable title to me.

Eh, Evangelion might have had a lot of religous obscura at attached to it, but the actual story stuck me as obvious. I'd say Boogiepop and Lain took a lot more assembly on the part of the viewer to understand just the basic story and plot.

[Weatherman]

As it has been said, it's just a differnt style of story telling. Japanese storys tend to leave the conclusion up to the viewer rather then just laying out an answer like most Western stories. Granted, sometime it really seems like they're just being obscure for the sake of being obscure, but at least it gives you something to talk about later.


And, to be honest, once I saw the end of Boogie Pop, it actually made alot of sense. The story's just told out of order, chronologically.

[Karl Olson]

And, to be honest, once I sawthe end of Boogie Pop, it actually made alot of sense. The story's just told out of order, chronologically.

Yeah, I know it is, but that struck me as more cryptic than Eva, atleast when it came down to pinning down the basic story movements. Eva is fairly linear, which makes it a lot easier to pin down the story structure.

[Chimera]

I have a feeling this topic has arisen due to the recent ending in Wolf's Rain. An ending which, in my opinion, was something that has pretty much been done a lot before and yet the series itself didn't do anything good enough (i.e. take the same ideas, but do it better) or original enough to justify using that type of ending again.
You're right, and I completely agree.

[Scythemantis]

The only shows that are deep are the ones people THINK ARE DEEP. As far I`m concern there is no such thing as a deep show in any from of anitmation.

I used to think like this, but then I decided it was stupid.

See, first there were gullible fanboys totally falling for any attempt at "meaning" or searching for it where it was not supposed to exist.

People didn't like these guys, and determined that it was lame to look for "depth" where it wasn't always intended.

But then they just plain wouldn't shut up, so it was determined that any deliberate attempt at "depth" was phony, manufactured rubbish and there was simply no such thing to begin with. Now this has become a fashionable point of view for embittered fans who want to detach themselves from all the other fans and pretend they're thinking outside the box.

Unfortunately, this is every bit as lame as the obsessive, overanalytical side of things. BOTH schools of thought are taking the concept of "depth" far too seriously and need to lighten up. Does it have to be such a dirty word? Does it HAVE to be just an abstract notion invented by pasty fanboys to justify their excessive fascination with something? Why can't something be "just a tv show" and "deep" at the same time? I say depth is everywhere in entertainment and there's nothing wrong with saying so. It doesn't mean the work in question is a be-all end-all testament to man's genius, it just means that it's smart. Lots of things fail in their attempts at and lots of things succeed wether or not they're trying to.

[Dogasu]

you probably want the all out adam sandler ending. You want every character to show you the completion and then be married with kids at the end. If that's the case, give it up, cause it's NEVER going to happen. Not in any of the ones i mention.
I'm going to share a story.

For those of you who may not know, I'm currently studying abroad in Nagoya, Japan for an International Exchange trip. I live in a dorm with about 60 other foreigners, and, with any large group of foreigners in Japan, you're going to find an otaku or eight. One day, a few of us were talking about movies, and the Final Fantasy movie came up (The Spirits Within, not Advent Children). When I told the people I was talking with that I didn't like the movie, people acted like there was something wrong with me and automatically came up for reasons why I didn't like it. "You just didn't understand the plot--if you had, you would have liked it." "You're one of those shallow fans that needs a bunch of chocobos and moogles and fire spells in every other scene before you'll consider it a Final Fantasy movie." "It had too much talking for you and not enough action/nudity." The excuses continued for a while.

What annoyed me about this is that none of those reasons were accurate. I had reasons to back up why I didn't like the movie, but nobody would hear it. I understood the movie perfectly well, but all they could tell me was that I was some dumbass who was too stupid to comprehend the movie and that THAT was the reason I didn't like the movie.

The same thing happens whenever I tell people that I don't care for Evangelion, or The Big O, or any other "deep" anime that I happen to not like. It seems that with a lot of the fans of these series, you either understood these series and loved it, or you didn't know what was going on and therefore hate it. There is no middle ground, it seems--to a lot of the fans I've encountered, there is no such thing as a person who's seen Evangelion, understood it, but then didn't love it to the point of idol worship. And that's really annoying.

I don't need everything dumbed down for me. I'd like to think of myself as a reasonably intelligent person who doesn't need the "Adam Sandler happily ever after" ending. I might just have different tastes from some people. Is it that hard to accept that there are people out there who don't like some fans' favorite shows for reasons OTHER than "I was too stupid to know what was going on?"

[RogueMartian]

I don't need everything dumbed down for me. I'd like to think of myself as a reasonably intelligent person who doesn't need the "Adam Sandler happily ever after" ending. I might just have different tastes from some people. Is it that hard to accept that there are people out there who don't like some fans' favorite shows for reasons OTHER than "I was too stupid to know what was going on?"
Well we're not talking about taste in this. The original post is complaining about deep endings. after 13 hours of invested time, its apparently not worth it unless it wraps up nice and neatly at the end. I mean, this disturbed me for a while when I first got into anime, but eventually I got over it. You begin to accept that few animes will wrap up or end as you like them too. Rarely will you get the two main characters hooking up at the end, rarely will you get the conclusion you yearn for for 13/26 or more episodes. In fact, I've found that in many cases I prefer that type of ending. Because if you look at more episodic shows. Let's use one of my favs, Daria as an example. Here's a show that is good, goes downhill and has an unsatisfying ending. So it goes with both spiderman series, x-men, batman, superman, batman beyond....no star trek series has ended in a way that i've liked. And that's just series, I could probably list hundreds of popular movies where I HATED the ending.

Does that mean all my viewing was a waste of time? This is like saying the ends justify the means. I enjoyed all those shows and movies that I watched, the endings i've been willing to ignore.

Basically my point is: whether conclusive or open, the ending will probably suck, so it's not really an issue either way. In a way i prefer the bizarre or open endings because it diffuses the possible suck factor by forcing you to consider on your own the solutions to the mysteries and character situations. If you don't like them you don't like them, it's all opinion.

[Conekiller]

I used to think like this, but then I decided it was stupid.
ETC......
I'm very glad you came to this conclusion. I used to be on both ends of the spectrum. But now I've found a happy medium.

Hopefully, others will see that there is no need to be "better" than other fans and we all just get along!

[Chimera]

Well we're not talking about taste in this. The original post is complaining about deep endings. after 13 hours of invested time, its apparently not worth it unless it wraps up nice and neatly at the end.What did I just say? Again, there's a difference between a neatly wrapped up and conlusive ending and and an ending that doesn't reek of the asses that the the writers pulled it out of.

[Zero Angel]

What did I just say? Again, there's a difference between a neatly wrapped up and conlusive ending and and an ending that doesn't reek of the asses that the the writers pulled it out of.
your right.

art happens when you drop the f.

that being said, a person could have a great concept and follow it all the way to the end of the series and then have a nervous breakdown and get commited (Kare Kano) or a person could have a great story idea with amazing characters and good romance but the other half of the team wants to continue the story and water it down (Tenchi). then again you may run into an issue that has happened time and time again with the fact that the manga is not yet completed so the team working on the show goes in a completly different direction then what the manga artist had in mind (more recently Hellsing).

these things happen all the time. first you have to consider that groups of people invest money into shows, not just one production company, so you end up with problems in how the show is run and opperated. an anime might not even have the original writer of the show helping them out with it because they are to busy trying to finish the manga in which the show is based (Battle Angel Atlita, Gunnm) and you get a completly different product with some of the same key themes.

all in all though, if a person cant like, or agree with what they have watched, fine. at the very least try to give some appreciation to what you have watched and take from it what you can. as the person who originally posted on this topic said...it was your 13 hours that you sat through all of it.

[Dogasu]

Well we're not talking about taste in this. The original post is complaining about deep endings.
Which goes hand in hand with my post. Most of the time, people like "deep" series because of the whole package, ESPECIALLY the ending.


after 13 hours of invested time, its apparently not worth it unless it wraps up nice and neatly at the end.
That's a very gross overgeneralization. I don't need everything wrapped up in a nice little package for me to be satisfied. In fact, that's why I didn't like the ending to Rayearth 2--it was such a color-in-the-lines ending with no surprises that it became a chore to sit through. But that doesn't mean we should be happy with the "anti-endings" that we're often given, either. The way you make it sound, the ending is just some throwaway part of the story that should be ignored completely. You're telling us that the fact that they did the first part of the series well means that we should ignore the half-assed later part of the series?

[Tash]

Like .hack//SIGN. Nothing was explained at all, and it ended abruptly. Then, the games came out, and everything was answered. That ruined the series for me (which is ironic, considering SIGN was supposed to promote the games). A lot of things that were fun to think about and stuff... they turned out to have REALLY dumb explanations. (like finding out that crap about the aromatic grass)

So as about half of us have been saying:
No explanation is sometimes better than a bad explanation.

[RogueMartian]

So as about half of us have been saying:
No explanation is sometimes better than a bad explanation.
Exactly my point. Do a creative exercise. Sit down and think about how you would end and anime. Don't write it and don't send it to me, cause the last thing I wanna see is anybody's fanfics, but that's beside the point.

What did I just say? Again, there's a difference between a neatly wrapped up and conlusive ending and and an ending that doesn't reek of the asses that the the writers pulled it out ofI know there's a difference, I wrote about it. The problem is that you are talking about taste. You don't like the end of Big O. Fine don't like it. I don't. But differentiating between the endings that just suck and the endings that people don't like because they aren't "and they all lived happily ever after" endings is difficult. Because many people at the end of virtually every anime complain that they never found out about X or they wanted to know what happened to a character and they don't get that. And I'm saying what Tash said so eloquently, that saying an ending sucks because it explains nothing is bad because explanation or not: the ending more often than not in any country sucks. You should just be thankful that you got 13 hours of entertainment out of it.

[William C. Maune]

I think some things are being taken to extremes on both sides here. Just because someone doesn't like a certain type(s) of endings doesn't necessarily mean they want a happily ever after ever ending. Also, just because an something doesn't end up happily ever after doesn't necessarily mean it is deep.

[Zero Angel]

I think some things are being taken to extremes on both sides here. Just because someone doesn't like a certain type(s) of endings doesn't necessarily mean they want a happily ever after ever ending. Also, just because an something doesn't end up happily ever after doesn't necessarily mean it is deep.
this is a very true thing. look at the original ending to True Romance. good ole Quentin didnt want a hollywood ending but the producers had different ideas...

personally i like both series that keep me guessing about what was going on and the end results (Eva still draws a huge conversation peice whenever i am feeling paticularly filled with gas) and i also really appreciate endings that tie up all loose ends and finish out well (El Hazard : the Magnificant World is still one of my fave endings).

the question of deep endings though is what you take from the series. a series might not have a deep ending but the fans try to put two and two together when there is no math equation. Boogiepop Phantom comes to mind when people try to draw the 'deep meanings' out of a really well crafted and directed horror story. of coarse one might argue that the reason that there are so many conflicts on weither or not there were any deep meaning in there or not comes from the fact that not all the loose ends were tied up and not everything was explained even though we did get for the most part a conclusive ending.

i just think that most people should just sit down and not get angry that they have spent time watching something that didnt have an ending that they didnt like, but should take it as an accomplishment that they finished something out completly. in this day and age of fast paced anime being put out it is hard to keep track of all those series that we get bits and peices of and never finish to the end.

[Weatherman]

Yeah, I know it is, but that struck me as more cryptic than Eva, atleast when it came down to pinning down the basic story movements. Eva is fairly linear, which makes it a lot easier to pin down the story structure.
True that. Linear timelines do help alot in that department. Boogie Pop probably wouldn't feel nearly as "deep" as it does without the messed up chronology of the whole thing.

[Karl Olson]

True that. Linear timelines do help alot in that department. Boogie Pop probably wouldn't feel nearly as "deep" as it does without the messed up chronology of the whole thing.

Yeah. Basically, Boogiepop was a good horror story arranged brillantly (because the non-linear setup enhanances it so much,) whereas Eva was a philosophical story told through linear symbolism (IE: You're not told much, but it's inferred chronologically.) Personally, I'm great with decoding symbols, so Eva was more accessible do to the linear nature of things.

[RAINMAN]

Now a days people like to use the word deep as a lame excues why they like a series even if the series is not deep to begin whit. YYH and Trigun comes to mimd. If people really find those shows deep then I hate to think what they consider shows like FLCL. Both show are no more then simple action show whit little to none interesting characters. Trigun did have 2 IC but they kill one of them off for cheap shock value. Yet to anime fans that make it a deep series? Really???:rolleyes: All I`m saying if you like a show then tell the truth and stop lieing. And I still stand by view that their is no such thing as a deep animated series or movie. I think most of you take thing you like too serious so therefar you give if your serious seal of apporval. Or it just a anime fan thing?:sweat:

[Invader_Spooch]

First off, I'm sick of some people (esp. here) using "deep" as a dirty word to describe any series/movie that is out of the ordinary (ie. artistic), that they didn't like (for whatever reason). Just because it doesn't follow the formula of most shows doesn't mean it is (or trying to be) thought provoking/"deep". Boogiepop wasn't "deep" or "thought provoking", just an interesting horror/thriller with unique direction. Hell, not many anime series can be considered "deep".

Secondly, I think too many people here are getting way too petty about this. If you didn't like a particular series (for whatever reason) then just move on. I have encountered too many folks who act like the creators of [Insert Series Here] owe them something, and they feel outraged when it doesn't work out the way they wanted it to. It's one thing to end up not liking an ending to a series (I felt Escaflowne was a big letdown to me in the end, but I don't harp on it), but it's another to post your opinion as fact, and rag on those who don't agree with you (which works on both sides of the spectrum of fandom).

Just because a show goes a different direction than your typical anime, don't start spouting terms like "deep". Those who make that generalization are just showing their lack of intelligence.

[Znath]

Unlike some american shows such as GI Joe,He-man...etc.

Anime's are generaly made with an ending in mind. Some anime's have a
end more phylisophicaly than others. Obviously shows like Excel Saga aren't
going to get deep and meaningful in the end. Shows aimed at older people,
may have more meaning to some people...
or may simply be incredibly boring to others.

It's a matter of taste.
Depending on if you
want to hear the moral or the story at the end,
see lots of explosions, or
laugh your pants off for no reason at all.

and... having the show be any good helps too
otherwise it could explain the meaning of all existance and nobody would care

[Scythemantis]

All I`m saying if you like a show then tell the truth and stop lieing. And I still stand by view that their is no such thing as a deep animated series or movie. I think most of you take thing you like too serious so therefar you give if your serious seal of apporval. Or it just a anime fan thing?:sweat:

You don't seem to have read my post. I'm not an anime fan and I say you're taking the word "deep" too seriously. You think calling something "deep" is overdoing it, but why? What does "deep" mean, exactly? It has NEVER meant "OMG THE BEST THING EVER!!!"....something can be deep and still be complete and utter crap. All "depth" means is that the characters or storylines have complexity to them. Doesn't have to mean they're good, it's just a descriptive term, and it does exist. It just doesn't mean as much as you think it does.

[Weatherman]

First off, I'm sick of some people (esp. here) using "deep" as a dirty word to describe any series/movie that is out of the ordinary (ie. artistic), that they didn't like (for whatever reason). Just because it doesn't follow the formula of most shows doesn't mean it is (or trying to be) thought provoking/"deep". Boogiepop wasn't "deep" or "thought provoking", just an interesting horror/thriller with unique direction. Hell, not many anime series can be considered "deep".
Except that Boogie Pop was rather thought provoking if you take the time to look at the issues the creators are addresing througout the show's run. And "deep", quite frankly, is all in how you see a series. Some people will find more depth to certain shows then other people will. Belittling people for finding a certain show "deep" is just petty and rather short-sighted.

[Demonic Raven]

It all depends on your personal tastes. Some people like deep, philosophical shows with endings that make you think a bit before fully getting to context of what everything symbolized.

Then obviously there are the other side of the spectrum. Lighter shows with ending that give some sort of closure to nearly all ends. It's up to the person which you prefer.

[Mynd Hed]

It all depends on your personal tastes. Some people like deep, philosophical shows with endings that make you think a bit before fully getting to context of what everything symbolized.

Then obviously there are the other side of the spectrum. Lighter shows with ending that give some sort of closure to nearly all ends. It's up to the person which you prefer.

I think there's got to be a middle ground, too. Just because someone doesn't want to spend years analyzing symbols to figure out what the heck just happened doesn't necessarily mean they want something "lighter," just something a little less dense.
In my opinion, the tension during a series should be caused by the question, "What's going to happen next?" And after the end of a series, the question (if any) should be, "What does it all mean?"
The problem with many anime is that they eschew both questions in favor of, "What's going on? What just happened?" If you ask me, the literal events that took place should be reasonably clear by the end of a series; you shouldn't have to do too much extra thinking just to figure out what went on. It's the themes that should bear closer examination after the end of a series (or of a film, a novel, or any similar work), not the plot.
But then again, this is also why I don't like a lot of poetry, so it's not like anime is the only thing to suffer from this problem.

[Zero Angel]

Now a days people like to use the word deep as a lame excues why they like a series even if the series is not deep to begin whit. YYH and Trigun comes to mimd. If people really find those shows deep then I hate to think what they consider shows like FLCL. Both show are no more then simple action show whit little to none interesting characters. Trigun did have 2 IC but they kill one of them off for cheap shock value. Yet to anime fans that make it a deep series? Really???:rolleyes: All I`m saying if you like a show then tell the truth and stop lieing. And I still stand by view that their is no such thing as a deep animated series or movie. I think most of you take thing you like too serious so therefar you give if your serious seal of apporval. Or it just a anime fan thing?:sweat:
shock value? perhaps. but even if it was for shock value it was still a very beautiful moment.

come on...when Wolfwood first enters the church the cross is leaning on him, then as the scene continues and he is losing strength he starts leaning on the cross. at the very end, the only reason that either are standing is because of each other...an abosulutly very well done and directed moment.