Justice League "Secret Origins" Talkback (Spoilers) [Archive]

DerekPowers

11-17-2001, 08:45 PM

its was great, imo!!! and i had no problem w/ supes voice!! i loved how batman saved all their butts after getting left in the dust here and there. but how'd he survive that part when they tought he died?? i know mm said he sheilded him, but it sounded like he said he was sheilding him at that moment, not back when bats "died".

overall it was great. a few small problems, my main one being the animation could have been better. it was good, and some of those explosions were awesome, but i still think eps like "worlds finest", "a little piece of home" and all those really greatly animated bats/supes eps were animated better. maybe its the digital coloring (which looked great here anyway), i dont know. anyone know who animates jl and who animated the first seasons of tnba and stas?

anyway, i loved ww, i really did. and hawkgirl kicked serious butt. and i did see lots of purple in bats suit, it just depended on the enviornment. like the first scene w/ batman and superman, batman's highlights were almost all purple, and looked rad!!

well, out of 10 i give this one an 8. but the potential is enormass, i think this will be one of the best series in a long time. and that injustice gang teaser was so awesome. is that ep going to be a 3 parter as well? anyone know? cause thats going to be THE jl ep, i think. anyway, it was great. i did miss the batman theme when he came into the screen. it would have been perfect if they played it at the end when he reappears. oh well. peace.

Ed Liu

11-17-2001, 08:49 PM

Howdy all,

My first comment about JL is I I HATE HATE HATE HATE TIME-WARNER CABLE!!!!! Of ALL the times to have lousy reception and occasional signal dead spots, the premiere of Justice League was NOT one of them. "We're aware of the problem, and it should be getting fixed soon" my fanny. Jerks.

What I did manage to see of JL (Time-Warner Cable JERKS!) I liked quite a bit -- call it 4 out of 5 stars. I thought they did the best they could, considering they needed to introduce all the characters for the premiere. There's some real crackle to the team, like when GL and WW nearly come to blows over the plan. With all the super powers present, Batman ends up saving the day. Superman says, "Hawkgirl, be caref..." and then she goes and kicks major alien booty. There's tons of "alien invasion" references throughout the episode, which I'll fire off a new thread for later. They showed aliens and probably people actually getting hurt, showing stuff that wouldn't have made it into New Batman/Superman Adventures, or even BTAS (like the Imperium sticking tentacles under J'onn's skin...eeeewww).

What I didn't like: about 2 seconds after Astronaut/Senator "J. Alan Carter" started talking, I turned to my wife and said, "He's an alien," and I was right. Wonder Woman's voice actress; not quite "majestic" for me, and she never really seemed to be straining when she was straining. Hawkgirl and Superman can't break through the alien tripods at the beginning of the episode, but they can at the end and nobody knows why.

Mightily jazzed over the premiere and definitely looking forward to more. Especially the Hawkgirl, GL, and Wonder Woman stories.

That is, assuming the ROTTEN SKUNKS AT TIME-WARNER CABLE CAN MANAGE TO LET ME ACTUALLY WATCH THE CHANNELS THAT I PAY FOR!!!!! Bastards.

-- Ed/Ace

The Dork Knight

11-17-2001, 08:49 PM

I watched it for a few mintues............... I LOVED IT!!!!! But what's up with Sup's voice?

- Foley Is Good

"I got dibs on the amazon!"

JLU Dude

11-17-2001, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Foley Is Good
I watched it for a few mintues............... I LOVED IT!!!!! But what's up with Sup's voice?

- Foley Is Good

"I got dibs on the amazon!"

Geroge Newbern took over for Tim Daly in Justice League (due to Daly bring busy).

Joe Tully

11-17-2001, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by DerekPowers
its was great, imo!!! and i had no problem w/ supes voice!! i loved how batman saved all their butts after getting left in the dust here and there. but how'd he survive that part when they tought he died?? i know mm said he sheilded him, but it sounded like he said he was sheilding him at that moment, not back when bats "died".

Nope, Bats and MM had it planned all along, so MM just lied to WW and Flash. I guess MM's shield might have fooled the martians into thinking that he was dead or maybe made Bats "invisible," preventing their minds from registering the image of Bats right in front of them. MM had been shielding Bats all along to keep any martians from finding him and letting him get close enough to enact their plan.

Failure

11-17-2001, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Lucho
"why didnt Superman use his heat vision earlier to free everyone from being trapped at the end?"

Power were interupted while the sun was blocked out, He smiles when the sun hits his face, then it kicks in.

Ah ok, I didnt think the sun was gone long enough for Superman to be weakened that much.

My favorite line? Medic reaches for Batman's cowl and Batman's hand springs up to grab her, "Don't even think about it." Classic.

BeastBoyWonder

11-17-2001, 09:03 PM

Wow...I'm liking all of them. It's great to see Bruce back in action, still his usual self. Now we can read back to the BB JLU episode when they offer Terry to join the League, and i think supes comments that he's just like bruce.

Bobby Boy 101

11-17-2001, 09:04 PM

When I first saw Batman, I was like. . .

"OMG!!!!! THIS IS SOOOO AWSOME!!!!!!! OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#1"

Literally I was like screaming out of enjoyment!!!! And he was soooo fast!!!!

BUT BUT BUT BUT He got his [butt] majorley kicked like 4 times!!!! I was like "NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!"

but oh, well, u cant have everything

I wanted to kill GL by the time the show was over, and i wanted to give Hawkgirl some sort of praise

dang, she can fight!!!!!! :D

metaphysician

11-17-2001, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Joe Tully

Nope, Bats and MM had it planned all along, so MM just lied to WW and Flash. I guess MM's shield might have fooled the martians into thinking that he was dead or maybe made Bats "invisible," preventing their minds from registering the image of Bats right in front of them. MM had been shielding Bats all along to keep any martians from finding him and letting him get close enough to enact their plan.

Alternatively, he may have just exploited that power knuckle and some major mojo martial arts to kick the crap out of the Martians ( that, or he whipped up a UV generator ).

:)

kid_flash

11-18-2001, 12:10 AM

Holy crap, this show RULES!!!!! Okay, here's my review/ultimate praise.

The storyline: Not entirely original, but this is the Justice League. These are the folks who handle the big ones. The aliens were just awesome, I can't say enough good things. Kudos to Rich Fogel, he once again reminded me he's one of the greats. It was brilliantly set up, starting with Batman, then bringing in Superman and building from there. Onto the characters!

Batman: Best version ever. The design is awesome (and I've been saying that forever!), and Conroy as always nailed it. His movements were fluid, and he just looked creepy man!

Superman: Sure, the voice lacked in some areas (overall, impressed with Newborn's work) and the animation made a few slips, but this is SUPERMAN! He's huge, heroic, and just all-around cool. Nice to see he still has the old digs in Metropolis. Also, those scene with the psi-blasts in his head were incredible.

Martian Manhunter: I hate calling him that, and I'm glad they don't in the show. I am convinced, this is J'onn J'onnz (ever since Ra's Al Ghul, I've been ever-appreciative of the pronounciation guide). The design worked better than it seemed it would've, and the voice was dead-on. Carl Lumbly provided the best new voice in the cast. I've always known J'onn had a deep voice, but I could never place the accent I've always heard he had. Lumbly got it. After this ep, J'onn is my new fave of the team.

The Flash: LOL, I love this guy! The animation worked for him, and Micheal Rosenbaum was perfect! Best two lines from him: "Is it just me, or does that guy totally creep anyone out?" and "You mean like a group of Superfriends?" That last one was totally corny, but totally neccesary. I loved that he was the first to join the team (unless you count Supes).

Green Lantern: Stereotypical? Maybe, but I like this character. There have been a lotta complaints about GL using his ring mainly as a weapon, but this is a military guy. It shows. He's got a lotta willpower.

Wonder Woman: The character was well-written, but the voice acting fell a bit short. She lacked that warrior's spirit, but her compassion made up for it (Diana ain't all about war, her mission is one of peace).

Hawkgirl: Pretty disappointed by her lacking role here, I really like her. Looking forward to her character being expanded on (I heard Monday's ep will have more on her!). That scene of her taking out the aliens while Superman just watched was priceless.

Overall, this is my new favorite show this fall. Nearly every review I've read degraded it. This is my favorite out of any show Timm and Co. have done. Oh, and I LOVED the opening sequnce. Perfection, I cannot wait for more.

Heehaw

11-18-2001, 12:14 AM

JL was very disappointing. The animation was inconsistent and the story was old hat. A major step backwards for the crew. Of course, Batman Beyond started all that, though, "new style" Batman hinted at it.

I loved Batman and Martian Manhunter, and I pretty much liked everyone else. I feel that Paul Dini's lack of input, at least with this first season, will leave the show empty and not able to reach it's full potential. Dini returns for season two, so it should get interesting. How anyone can say this is the best show the crew has done is beyond me. Nothing beats those first few weeks of Batman The Animated Series. On Leather Wings, Heart of Ice, Feat of Clay Pt. 2, P.O.V., Appointment in Crime Alley, It's Never Too Late, Two-Face, Pt. 1...it goes on an on. This show didn't come anywhere near those and it probably won't.

I'll stay tuned, though, VCR remote in hand. It's still better than 99% of what's on TV, but I'm just letdown. Samurai Jack has it beat. Now there's a show with style.

DerekPowers

11-18-2001, 01:30 AM

i dont understand the point in mm lieing to ww and flash about bruce being dead. whats the point of that?

i loved it, but the main problem i had was i felt like i already saw it. what with 80 sec preview, all the reviews and screen grabs, jl site's multi-media, i almost felt like id seen it already. but i supose thats because it was a pretty simple story, simply introducing everyone, nothing too deep or anything.

i like mm alot now, though. hes pretty cool. i loved when he jumped through batman. that part was cool as hell. but you know what i did notice about that scene, they made superman and mm both get hit w/ the same alien blast, and clearly showed mm being much more hurt by it, showing that superman is indeed stronger than mm. i know we already know this, but for someone watching who wasnt sure who'd be more powerful, im sure that part was in there to clear up any doubts. peace.

Failure

11-18-2001, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by DerekPowers
i dont understand the point in mm lieing to ww and flash about bruce being dead. whats the point of that?

Were the aliens telepathic? I'm assuming they were, to a point at least. If WW and Flash knew that Batman was alive, that could've compromised the whole plan then.

JckNapier2

11-18-2001, 02:17 AM

First off, I am sick and tired of everyone acting like Paul Dini was the sole writer capable of quality material during the eight year run of the Fox/WB Batman/Superman shows (though to be fair, such grandstanding has been limited on this board). Even Dini and Timm have openly admitted that, if not for the imput of Alan Burnett, the early Fox shows would have risked turning into standard kiddie fare. Michael Reeves, Boyd Kirkland, Kevin Alteri, Dan Riba, Shirley Walker. All of these people had as much a hand as Timm and Dini in shaping the Batman/Superman animated mythos.
Ok, got that out of the way. Bruce Timm, as time goes on, seems less and less responsible for the quality of the initial Fox shows. Witness how he streamlined the Batman shows in 1997, making the characters more stylized, less human looking, less detailed, and less beautiful to look at, just for the sake of making them run a little faster. When the show went to the WB, the shows also lost several key components, namely Michael Reeves (left to help write Gargolyes), Kevin Alteri (went to work on Spawn), Dan Riba (eventually worked on X-Men: Evelution).
The biggest change at the WB was of course the less stringent censors. As odd as this sounds, especially coming from and ACLU member, the strict standards at Fox may have actually helped the writers. Because the writers could not fill the shows with action and violence for a full 20 minutes, they were forced to write shows that had stories, depth, and character development, as opposed to the non-stop action episodes that make up the bulk of the later shows. True, it was nice having The Joker actually be able to murder people onscreen, but I missed the three-dimensional characters and dialogue.
Rich crime dramas like Appointment in Crime Alley and tender, tragic romances like Mad as a Hatter were replaced with jumky action and chase-fests like The Ultimate Thrill, Critters, and the horrific The Demon Rises. Even episodes that had interesting story hooks, like Mean Seasons and Chemistry, were marred by pointless 2nd-act action scenes that took up valuable time and left the character arcs feeling rushed and incomplete. Yes, there were exceptions (Growing Pains, Over the Edge, World's Finest, and Old Wounds), but the majority of the New Batman Adventures (and second/third season Superman episodes) substituted fist-cuffs and laser blasts for genuine storytelling.
Batman Beyond was a slight improvement only in that it had a higher ratio of storytelling and character conversation to explosive action scenes than the WB Batman and Superman shows. Which now brings us to Justice League. Just as I feared, the de-evolution is complete. What started as a series of high-quality animated dramas, mysteries, comedies, and melodramas which represented a new high water mark for the genre has become yet another juvinille action-fest. 60 minutes of explosions, chases, and laser blasts, without even a hint of character beyond quick clips (IE-Flash: jokey slacker; Wonder Woman: naive newcomer)... personality-less enemies without a hint of motivation or phycosis... shockingly banal writing and wordplay, most of it expository... piss-poor voice acting, and lousy, overally bright animation to boot (but, wow do they fly fast!)
I never thought it would come to this, but X-Men: Evolution is actually superior to The Justice League. Yes, the writing on X-Men is horribly cliched and juvinille and often makes me cringe, but at least they are TRYING to tell character-driven stories that don't constantly rely on explosions and more explosions. Yes, it has come to this. Bruce Timm has produced a show that represents every cartoon stereotype that Batman: The Animated Series helped destroy and undo. Not even Paul Dini and Alan Burnett may be able to save it at this point. Timm and co. have done what The Joker and Darkseid could not. Now that The Justice League has fallen, only The Powerpuff Girls remains to protect us (oh, and for the record, Buttercup would have kicked those aliens outa the planet in less than five minutes).

Scott Mendelson

Joe Tully

11-18-2001, 02:23 AM

It was the first ep., let's not judge the whole series on just the opener, okay guys? :)

Yeah, the white aliens were supposed to be telepathic, but I dunno if they mentioned that anywhere within the episode other than when the leader mentioned the block in MM's brain. So that's why MM lied to WW and Flash.

Mr. Obsession

11-18-2001, 02:42 AM

The animation for the most part was nice and fluid making for great action scenes. The characters were done right. And the voice acting was well done. I will say that I was quite pleasantly suprised with the new voice for Superman, considering all the negative reviews I've been reading about the new guy. Would Tim Daly(sp?) have done a better job? Probably, but the new guy did fine, and he should only get better.

I do have to complain that the music just didn't grab me like it has in the previous series. And Hawkgirl, the character that most viewers are probably going to know the least about, needed a better introduction. Or at least some more lines.

I also found it interesting that GL has apparently worked with Superman before and knows Batman, if only by reputation but didn't know Flash.

Over all it didn't quite impress me the way Batman: TAS premier did way back in '92 but I did think it was better than Superman or Batman Beyonds.

Kal-el

11-18-2001, 03:25 AM

To be totally and completely honest, I was a bit disappointed with JL. The animation was far below my expectations. I thought the animation for TNBA and STAS was better, more crisp.
Of the character designs, I'd say MM is the best, followed by GL and WW. Flash was also very well done. Supes and Batman seem just a bit "off" to me.
The voice acting was good for the most part. Superman will take some getting used to. Hopefully the dialogue will become more natural and fluid as the series progresses.
The story was well done, though a bit too familiar. The music didn't do much for me either. It was too subdued and not dramatic enough for my tastes.
Don't get me wrong...I thoroughly enjoyed the premiere and will continue to watch loyally. Out of 10, I'd give it a 6/7.

Beyond Batman

11-18-2001, 05:07 AM

Before the show came on, I was a bit skeptical as to how they would all interact. You know what? They did just fine. They did a lot better than I expected. What an awsome show. I was in awe watching it, it almost felt like it wasn't happening. I had to watch it again just to make sure it was real. I very much enjoyed how Batman was the first hero to make an appearence. He is so well respected in the animated series, I'm glad they gave that to him.

Superman's voice was a bit odd to me, but I quickly grew into it.

Next to Bats and Supes, I think my favorite character is Flash. I'm looking forward to seeing him more in JL. That was the first time I've ever seen him in the animated series. I believe he was in a earlier STAS episode, but I missed that one. What was the name of the ep. BTW?

One more comment about Batman. Did anyone detect any fly-envy? Or is it just me? I give Batman so much respect for being on the JL, simply because he has NO superpowers, yet he makes up for it many other ways.

I'm looking forward to Monday. GO Justice League! :D

circa02

11-18-2001, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by JckNapier2
[e Timm, as time goes on, seems less and less responsible for the quality of the initial Fox shows. Witness how he streamlined the Batman shows in 1997, making the characters more stylized, less human looking, less detailed, and less beautiful to look at, just for the sake of making them run a little faster. When the show went to the WB, the shows also lost several key components, namely Michael Reeves (left to help write Gargolyes), Kevin Alteri (went to work on Spawn), Dan Riba (eventually worked on X-Men: Evelution).
The biggest change at the WB was of course the less stringent censors. As odd as this sounds, especially coming from and ACLU member, the strict standards at Fox may have actually helped the writers. Because the writers could not fill the shows with action and violence for a full 20 minutes, they were forced to write shows that had stories, depth, and character development, as opposed to the non-stop action episodes that make up the bulk of the later shows. True, it was nice having The Joker actually be able to murder people onscreen, but I missed the three-dimensional characters and dialogue.
Rich crime dramas like Appointment in Crime Alley and tender, tragic romances like Mad as a Hatter were replaced with jumky action and chase-fests like The Ultimate Thrill, Critters, and the horrific The Demon Rises. Even episodes that had interesting story hooks, like Mean Seasons and Chemistry, were marred by pointless 2nd-act action scenes that took up valuable time and left the character arcs feeling rushed and incomplete. Yes, there were exceptions (Growing Pains, Over the Edge, World's Finest, and Old Wounds), but the majority of the New Batman Adventures (and second/third season Superman episodes) substituted fist-cuffs and laser blasts for genuine storytelling.

Scott Mendelson [/B]

RIGHT ON SCOTT! Man I thought I was the ONLY 1 who felt that the later batman episodes were such a downfall from BTAS. The new episodes WERE ugly and badly written; it was insulting to Batman in so many ways I won't go into all of them. And you know, I never thought about how Fox's stricter censors actually helped the show's writing, as apposed to the WB's more violent but much inferior writing. Although I agree with you that it would have been nice on BTAS for the Joker to had actually harmed people...

Vin

11-18-2001, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by circa02

RIGHT ON SCOTT! Man I thought I was the ONLY 1 who felt that the later batman episodes were such a downfall from BTAS. The new episodes WERE ugly and badly written; it was insulting to Batman in so many ways I won't go into all of them. And you know, I never thought about how Fox's stricter censors actually helped the show's writing, as apposed to the WB's more violent but much inferior writing. Although I agree with you that it would have been nice on BTAS for the Joker to had actually harmed people...

I actually liked the animation in the newer episodes, but I agree, some of the episodes were poorly written and I wasn't thrilled with some of the redesigns.

Vin

11-18-2001, 10:08 AM

BTW, I just wanted to welcome you Circa02. Read over the rules and you should have a great time here.

Blight

11-18-2001, 10:10 AM

This show is great! I loved every second of it! It had a good story with great, fluid animation and excellent character interaction. My favorite characters are Batman (of course) Martian Manhunter and Flash. A few things I was dissapointed with were Wonder Woman's lack of emotion in her voice, Green Lantern's lack of using his ring to form differen't weapons (he just made blasts and shields the whole time), and of course, the fact that Batman an Superman's themes were not played once during the show! I was dissapointed by that, but perhaps they will have their main themes on the episodes focusing on them. All in all, this a teriffic show, and I give the pilot 10/10! I love this show even more than Batman Beyond, which is something, beacause I really like BB!

See ya!
Blight

Knight

11-18-2001, 10:49 AM

I enjoyed this first Justice League storyline It lacked in some areas but overall I found it very entertaining.

J'onn J'onzz is a good character with a lot of tragedy in his life and a very positive outlook on human's. He is one of my favorite characters from the episode although he seemed extremely depowered from his comic version.

John Stewart is another character I liked in the episode. He's very military minded and command oriantated.You can tell that he along with Martian Manhunter and Batman will be one of the teams better strategist.

Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl while good at fighting seemed to lack patience and seem to rush head first into combat which at times can be a liability.

Finally the animation wasn't as good as I was hoping for in a premier episode. I was hoping it would be on par with that of the First season of TNSA or even Batman Beyond. Superman looked horrible during some frames but I guess IM going to have to live with it. It was great just to see all these wonderful characters together.

SilverKnight

11-18-2001, 11:04 AM

Well, I'm actually coming out of web-hibernation to comment on this show. I like it. The animation wasn't the best, and Batman's ears were hard to get used to, but the first episode of this show it many times better than most of the crap cartoons out there.

True, it's not as good as BTAS, and as Scott Mendelson is so fond to tell us, there is alot of action, and I'm sorry he couldn't get even the slightest bit of enjoyment from it. I, however, am not so skeptical. It's the first episode, with an ensemble cast. I found the story to be pretty good in the way everyone was introduced. Furthermore, I don't think it's fair to compare this to BTAS. BTAS was a very good show, the best in my mind to this day, but how many cartoons have ever been as good? None. BTAS is in a class by itself, not every cartoon series about the same people and/or created by the same people will mean the same results. True, JL lacked in character developing, (for instance, I have no clue who Hawkgirl is considering I never read the comics) but that doesn't mean the episode or the show is laid to waste. This is a SERIES, not a one-shot deal. What the show lacked at first I'm sure will be explored later and with better detail. But, I'm ranting.

Getting onto the show itself, I had gotten no spoilers about the show other than who was in it, so I had no preconception on how this show would be. Overall, I'm pleased. I found the "mental screening" thing odd, whatever reasons there are or not. The animation could have been better in a few areas. And the character development was more or less non-existant for everyone except Martian Manhunter. Still, I'm looking forward to getting off the computer and rejoined real life to watch JL whenever it comes on. It's worth at least that much.

kid_flash

11-18-2001, 11:14 AM

I agree with JackNapier wholeheartedly about Paul Dini. Is the man a genius? Yes. Has he written some of the finest episodes out there? Yes. Are my favorites ones he's written? No. I think others will tell you the same. Really, Rich Fogel and Stan Berkowitz ARE my faves, and I'm thrilled that they're the official series writers.

One thing I forgot to add about GL....I kept expecting him to say something like "Shut'cho mouth, foo'!" Especially during that pep talk with Wally in the jungle.

As for what show is better...well, when you compare an entire run of BTAS to JL, yeah BTAS is better! But when you compare the BTAS pilot (I believe it was "The Cat and the Claw," which is one of my least favorite episodes) to the JL pilot, no contest! Besides, I didn't say JL was done better than any of the others. I just said it's my favorite (meaning quite possibly that BTAS was a better cartoon), and a lot of it has to do with seeing my favorite characters in animation. The other half of it is seeing them interact in animation.

JL RULES!

I have a real problem with people comparing JL to BTAS, especially on the first episode. They are two incredibly different shows. JL is SUPPOSED to be brightly animated, fast-paced action, and character development in the middle of the screen rather than while laying roses in an alley. There was a lotta character interaction in the battlefield! GL and Flash ("You are NO fun!"), Superman and Hawkgirl ("Are you always this eager for a fight?"), and J'onn, Batman, and Wonder Woman ("Let's see what she can do.") Not to mention the numerous other team-ups that went on. The character interaction and development is there, it's just not thrust at you like BTAS was, with the exception of J'onn.

CarterHall

11-18-2001, 11:40 AM

Overall the pilot was excellent. I thought that the premise of their coming together was very well done. I also think that the staff of JL are big H.G.Wells fans(tripod war machines from Mars?).
I do think that they need to clean up the animation a little. The costumes weren't consistent from scene to scene. I love all of the voices, after about 10 minutes, I didn't even notice a difference in Superman's voice.

I do think that John Stewart will be my favorite on this series. Although Batman's portrayal was dead on to his preivious animated incarnations.

an enjoyable 81/2 out of 10 stars.

Shriek

11-18-2001, 11:56 AM

I enjoyed everything, but Superman's appearance. I do not like that solid, thick "S" on his chest now. The voice was alright to listen to. Other than that the show kicked butt.

BeastBoyWonder

11-18-2001, 01:03 PM

I loved the animation, as well as the way the characters seamlessly interacted with each other. With so many charactrers who have the personality to work as individuals, their interaction was great.

JckNapier2

11-18-2001, 01:55 PM

Of course it should, for the very reason that the pilot is supposed to represent the very best the show has to offer. Consider...

Batman: TAS- The Cat and the Claw doesn't not count as (I'm guessing) Fox ran that one first on Saturday as a connection to Batman Returns. The true first episode (the first episode produced too) was On Leather Wings, which of course featured terrific animation, a well-written mystery, a solid introduction to all the main characters (even a humorous cameo by Harvey Dent, who's seen flipping a coin), crackling dialogue, and good pacing (trivia note: it is also the only Fox episode where Batman bleeds).

Gargolyes: The five part, 98 min opening (The Awakening) is still surpassed only by the four part City of Stone as the pinacle of that show's original 65 ep run.

Superman: Last Son of Krypton was a well-written, well-paced three part origin story that introduced all the principles and still had time for a couple of good action scenes (I still think it was ballsy to keep the entire first third on Krypton).

The New Batman Adventures: Holiday Knights featured above average animation and well-written, if silly adventure pieces. I only wish the scene at the diner at the end was a little longer. And, best of all, we finally got to see The Joker killing people! Yay!

Batman Beyond: compare the prologue to Rebirth to the prologue to Secret Orgins. Nuff said.

Put simply, if Secret Orgins is the best that the JLA team has to offer, I am weary of having hope for improvement.

Scott Mendelson

Heehaw

11-18-2001, 01:58 PM

One more comment about Batman. Did anyone detect any fly-envy? Or is it just me? I give Batman so much respect for being on the JL, simply because he has NO superpowers, yet he makes up for it many other ways.

First off, Batman, isn't real, so how can you "respect" him? The decision to be in JL is a real world writer's thing, not a conscious decision on Batman's part :)

Anyway, I agree with those who said Dini isn't the main reason for BTAS success. It was a team effort. When the show moved to WB, they lost some of those people and the show sank, in regards to great stories. Yes, there were some great ones in the "new style", but overall the WB counterpart was not as good as the Fox one. The new style had no real look or feeling to it. The Fox shows had varying types of backgrounds and more effective highlights and shadows on the characters, as well as, more mature stories. WB episodes had those annoying red skies(in every frickin' episode), less highlighting/shadowing and just a lack of dark atmosphere. It had it's moments, but it just doesn't add up to BTAS or even STAS(which at least was consistently well animated and had good stories, overall).

JL does not contain consistently fluid animation. It has it's good parts, but it just didn't make a good first impression.

Batman: TAS- The Cat and the Claw doesn't not count as (I'm guessing) Fox ran that one first on Saturday as a connection to Batman Returns.

Ha, ha, I think the first part of The Cat and the Claw is awesome. Part 2 fell flat thanks to crap animation, but I just loved the score and particularly the first 5 minutes of that one.

Kal-el

11-18-2001, 03:13 PM

After watching JL a second time, I'd say it's even better than the first time. I watched and rewound the opening theme probably 10 times...it is very powerful. The theme music is very, very well done. It's very dramatic, heroic, and endearing...timeless IMO. It really seems to capture the essence of the Justice League. Right now, I'd have to say it's my new favorite piece of music.

BeastBoyWonder

11-18-2001, 03:25 PM

I don't like the new music.

Karkull

11-18-2001, 03:35 PM

First off--good call, JckNapier2, on why the later episodes of Batman and Superman weren't as good.

I thought that, overall, Secret Origins was pretty good:

Superman
Great to see him again. George Newburn's voice will be more than adequate, but they drew him a little too old in some scenes. The first act, with Superman disarming the nuclear bombs, was a nice homage to Superman IV.

Batman
Perfect. He looked pretty sharp in purple.

Wonder Woman
She's alright. Who would have thought that her lasso could actually come in handy? Her debut was wonderful, as was her innocence (her eyes going wide when Flash threw his hand over her shoulder was priceless).

By the way: Diana, sweetheart, Athena and Artemis are going to get jealous if you only pray to Hera in the series. Actually, shouldn't you be praying to Athena for strength in battle anyway?

Flash
The Flash will be fun. He got most of the best lines and his pairing with Green Lantern was hilarious.

Green Lantern
We got only a glimmer of his personality in this pilot, but I think that he'll work out fine.

J'onn J'onzz
The breakout star. He'll be one of the best characters on this series. I'm hoping that he and Superman strike up a friendship at some point.

Hawkgirl
Well...there's always Monday's episode. Didn't get much on her.

Now, let the nitpicking begin:

First off, the first half hour was interesting. It would seem that the writers were purposely setting up the notion that this would be too much for the World's Finest duo to combat. Superman's nightmare sequences were neat, but was he the only one who got them? Everyone else just sort of knew when to show up.

Secondly, how did J'onn J'onzz know who to telepathically call? I got the impression that he called everybody except Batman. And why did only those seven show up? If J'onn was looking for heroes why didn't Dr. Fate, Jason Blood, Steel, Aquaman, or Kyle Rayner get the call (I already know that this is because they weren't chosen by the creators to be in the League; so don't tell me that is the reason)?

Speaking of which, why was J'onn being held? Did the government take him? It must have been because if it was the aliens I think that they would have just killed him (I got the impression that they were just arriving to kill him when he, Superman, and Batman were leaving).

Back to the fight in Metropolis. The aliens attack the Daily Planet as Superman and Batman follow J'onn's telepathic call. Weren't either of them worried about Lois Lane's safety?

Finally, about Snapper Carr. Why do the creators feel the need to create a new reporter for every series? First it was Summer Gleason (BTAS), then Jack Ryder (TNBA) and Angela Chen (STAS). I know that Summer and Jack were in Gotham at the time, but what happened to Angela?

Overall, this was a great show. There were some flaws, but that's okay. It'll only get better from here, folks.

:D

BeastBoyWonder

11-18-2001, 03:57 PM

Regarding the J'onn J'onnz (i prolly spelled that wrong) in captivity...that's actually kind of realistic for what the government would do. If the government encountered an intelligent alien entity, it would detain the entity and use it for study.

Karkull

11-18-2001, 05:57 PM

For the record, I'm not surprised that the government took J'onn into custody--him being the first non-human looking alien on the show.

Not to mention that after the track record of other alien encounters--Darkseid, Brainiac, Jax-Ur, and Mala come to mind--they'd probably wouldn't want to take chances at this point.

ARMquaman

11-18-2001, 06:02 PM

;) Greetings everyone I admire your passion.

JLA animated, I thought the action/battles was as kinetic as I've ever seen! The animation was crisp, and not remotely as generic as I had heard it would be. It's better than Batman Beyond's if that what we are comparing to?
I like many am burnt out on the WB Timm/Burnett boxy character designs. To induct a major event like this, they really should add more detail, it's about time.

Now the players:

1. Batman(hate his costume design) is as dominant and well written as I've ever seen in any animation incarnation. His martial arts/agility and overall prowess are done better here than BTAS anyday! Characterization is perfect, and he's not as much of a dickweed as I thought he'd be. Grade A

2. Superman, generic uninspired, boring. I still can't figure out why they refuse to draw the gold S on his cape? I'm just sick of him at this point, especially if he's that generic. He seemed to be powered down as well, he struggled lifting/holding a tank and some debris. he seemed as strong as the current Aquaman. Tim Daly's missing voice without a doubt hurt it! Grade C-

3. Hawkgirl, seemed to be more dependent on that amped up mace than Linus is with his blanket. She never ever put the thing down, and clung to it like a Donald Trump girlfriend. She became so redundant. Her mace seemed as powerful as Thor's hammer? Brings nothing to the table as predicted by many, that the others can't cover tenfold. Ferocity and flight alone is not enough for this icon team. I just don't get it and I never will why they used her to balance the sexes? PUKE!!! Grade F

4. Green Lantern fans have to be pissed. This guy had the imagination of a State Trooper. I haven't seen this many rings misused since the Dennis Rodman/Carmen Electra marriage. Not one creative thought or object was created. They should have used Dennis Miller as Green Lantern instead of John Stewart. It was just one tedious energy blast after the next. YAWN!!!
Grade D

5. Wonder Woman played better than I thought out of continuity. It was refreshing to actually see her fly. She showed major aggression, and a comic book characterization from Morrison's JLA combined with naivety. She'll probably get cooler as shows progress. Grade B+

6. Martian Manhunter was toned down immensly. There was very little evidence he was super strong at all. They did scrap the heat vision, who cares anyway, they have enough energy blasts. It makes a lot of sense that someone who abhors and can't go near fire would not have it as a power. Not bad it was solid. Grade B

7.The Flash, exactly as they said he would be, he should suprise no one. He's hard to F up because he is soo one dimensional. A couple of decent lines here and there. I can see how kids will like him. Not exactly Deadpool, but much like Dennis Miller in the MNFootball booth he'll probably get better by the show. Grade A-

Overall the action and pace were insane and it takes a lot for me to say that I really missed Aquaman. And I will comment a little later on this. Most of the characterizations were nailed. Overall Grade of B+.

------------------
Look at that guy's hair and granny arms!

Batman 80

11-18-2001, 06:04 PM

I thought the pilot was written very well. The animation was good and the character interaction was the best part. This show in my mind has the chance to become one of the all time great animated series. Can't wait to see Monday's episode.

Jimmy Kustes

11-18-2001, 10:25 PM

I don't read comics, and the only superhero shows I watched religiously were BTAS and the 90's Spider-Man. But now I can say that Justice League will be a new staple for viewing! As for the voices:

Batman: Yes!! If this wasn't it, the show wouldn't have worked.
Flash: Fits like Batman, maybe because I like Lex on Smallville.
Superman: I didn't watch STAS but this voice was egregrious (sp?). But if I can get used to Dexter's new voice I can get used to anything.
Snapper Carr and similiar voices: Is this the kid on Unhappily Ever After?

As for Green Lantern I am impressed by the character, but Hawkgirl serves no purpose so far.

I need to see full screen Secret Origins! I am too cheap to buy a flat widescreen TV!

Maxie Zeus

11-18-2001, 11:45 PM

Lotta meat in this post. :)

First, much of what you say I agree with: BTAS was always a collaborative effort, and the contributions of the other writers have often gone unnoticed and under-appreciated. BTAS has much better stories and character dynamics than the successor series. The balance of freedom and stringency at Fox probably worked more favorably for rich and nuanced treatments than the more relaxed KWB atmosphere.

A few comments, though:

Bruce Timm, as time goes on, seems less and less responsible for the quality of the initial Fox shows.

Well, it is possible to overstate Timm's contributions to the show as a designer, but it is also possible to understate his contributions as a producer. We know from "Batman Animated" that his actions were key to the assembly of that terrific crew they had on BTAS, and on replacing the "socially conscious" (and insipid) ideas of Sean Catherine Derek with the gritty dramas and tragic stories we associate with Reaves and Burnett and Dini and the others. Producers are often despised for their power to ruin a show; Timm in his capacity as producer as well as artist had a strong impact on making BTAS great.

Witness how he streamlined the Batman shows in 1997, making the characters more stylized, less human looking, less detailed, and less beautiful to look at, just for the sake of making them run a little faster.

As to which series looked the best, I think there are arguments to be made either way, so I'll only note that Timm has always tended toward the sleeker and more stylized look. BTAS was radically streamlined compared to the shows of the time, after all. Obviously, one can argue that BTAS hit the right balance of substance and stylization, and decry his drift toward ever-less-detailed designs. But it's worth recognizing that the impulse has been there from the beginning.

More importantly, I think it's vital to note that the change in style and the change in stories that occured between BTAS and TNBA cannot be an accidental link. Whether they decided to lighten the stories and then simplified the style, or simplified the style and then found themselves telling simpler stories, I don't know. But it seems to me clear that the the more action-oriented shows of TNBA work better as action shows, and do so because they can "move faster." "Critters" is awful even in the new style, but imagine how much more unwatchable it would be in the old style with the stiffer movements. :eek:

Again, you can argue that this just shows how appalling the change from BTAS to TNBA was (and I make the observation partly because it strengthens your case). But it also follows that the change is probably not one borne of laziness or corruption, but was a conscious stylistic decision. It is one we may regret and justly criticize Timm for making, but I think shows that he at least had his wits about him when he made it.

Originally posted by JckNapier2
Justice League. Just as I feared, the de-evolution is complete. What started as a series of high-quality animated dramas, mysteries, comedies, and melodramas which represented a new high water mark for the genre has become yet another juvinille action-fest. 60 minutes of explosions, chases, and laser blasts, without even a hint of character beyond quick clips (IE-Flash: jokey slacker; Wonder Woman: naive newcomer)... personality-less enemies without a hint of motivation or phycosis... shockingly banal writing and wordplay, most of it expository... piss-poor voice acting, and lousy, overally bright animation to boot (but, wow do they fly fast!)

This I do find somewhat unfair. Yes, there are more than a few bad patches in the dialogue, and more than a few lapses in the acting. But since JL was always intended and always designed to focus on action, so near as I can tell your criticism boils down to the complaint that JL is not BTAS. Well, no. Neither is it "The Flintstones" or "Pokemon" or "Space Ghost: Coast to Coast."

Now, if you don't like "juvenile action-fests" that is entirely your prerogative; to tell the truth, I'm not much fond of them myself, and was drawn to BTAS by precisely the qualities you laud. For that reason JL will never (I believe) replace BTAS in my affections. But I think it is far superior to the other action shows out there (except, maybe, for the very different "Samurai Jack") and superior because it still partakes of the same basic qualities as BTAS: an attention to the nuances of characters and situations and the ability to weave them into a gripping plot as decisive, contributing elements.

Parenthetically, one nitpick:

When the show went to the WB, the shows also lost several key components, namely . . . Dan Riba.

Dan Riba made the transition with them. He directed 7 TNBA episodes and 13 BB episodes, and was one of the co-directors on "Secret Origins."

Originally posted by JckNapier2
Of course it should, for the very reason that the pilot is supposed to represent the very best the show has to offer. Consider...

Um, no.

A TV series often takes a long time to settle into its groove. The pilot actually must be judged more leniently because it come so early in the development that usually the creators haven't yet discovered the characters or settings well enough to construct the best possible stories. Only as they see which elements work and which don't, what needs improvement and what needs junking, can you expect the show to begin showing off its better qualities. And for that reason, the pilot is much more likely to look like a "rough draft" and hence inferior to what comes afterward.

Just look at "The Simpsons" to see how far a series can develop from its initial inception as the writers and producers start honing it.

Anyway, if it's true that the pilot is supposed to be the best of the series, doesn't that mean that you should expect a series to only get worse?

Furthermore, with the bizarre production schedules that animated series have it is often very dangerous to infer that the first aired episode is supposed to be the "showcase" for the series. Case in point: "Holiday Knights" was intended to be the "Christmas" episode of TNBA, and the producers were extremely pissed when it came out of the production chute first and so went on the air first. Yes, STAS and JL and BB had well-defined "debut" episodes designed to give backstory. But that is why they were designed to go first--for the backstory, not because they showed what the series was supposed to be "like" or "about."

Failure

11-19-2001, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by Karkull
Secondly, how did J'onn J'onzz know who to telepathically call? I got the impression that he called everybody except Batman. And why did only those seven show up? If J'onn was looking for heroes why didn't Dr. Fate, Jason Blood, Steel, Aquaman, or Kyle Rayner get the call (I already know that this is because they weren't chosen by the creators to be in the League; so don't tell me that is the reason)?
[/B]

Here's my theories. I'm not sure how well known or established either Jason Blood or Steel would be as superheroes. As for Rayner, it's possible he doesn't exist yet in the continuum. As for Aquaman, maybe J'onzz knew that Aquaman wouldnt want to get invovled with anything that didn't directly involve him. As for Dr. Fate, I have no clue.

Originally posted by Karkull
Finally, about Snapper Carr. Why do the creators feel the need to create a new reporter for every series? First it was Summer Gleason (BTAS), then Jack Ryder (TNBA) and Angela Chen (STAS). I know that Summer and Jack were in Gotham at the time, but what happened to Angela?
[/B]

I was wondering where Lois was. She was center stage in Apokolips Now and Legacy, and seeing how Metropolis was getting pulverized, it's hard to imagine she'd be MIA for the story of the century. Anyone know if there's plans to give her a cameo?

JckNapier2

11-19-2001, 12:49 AM

All valid points, but I cannot, with the exception of The Simpsons, think of a single high-quality show that started off with a cruddy or mediocre pilot. Yes, many shows with good pilots went on to produce even better episodes in the future (ie- the pilot to 24 got me to watch again, the second episode has me hooked completely), but the first episode must be at least good for me to have any more than pure faith on chances for improvement. If there are any other exceptions to this, I'd love to hear them, cause I've been wracking my brain for such anomolies.

Scott Mendelson

GenXer

11-19-2001, 12:54 AM

The answer to what happened after J'onn and Diana (anyone else notice that she's never called "Wonder Woman"? and for that matter, I don't think "Martian Manhunter" is used either) left Batman behind is simple. Batman wasn't invisible or shielded by J'onn, HE KICKED SOME OF THE ALIENS' BUTTS!!! All that weapons fire certainly suggested a fight...he then faked capture to be put in one of those pod things. That was the plan all along. When J'onn said he had shielded Batman's mind, he meant that he kept him aware while he was in the pod, so he could jump out and save all the superpeople...something I'm sure he'll do frequently.

COOL SHOW....I LOVED IT!!!!

But can Hawkgirl and let Aquaman join...

Joe Tully

11-19-2001, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by JckNapier2
All valid points, but I cannot, with the exception of The Simpsons, think of a single high-quality show that started off with a cruddy or mediocre pilot. Yes, many shows with good pilots went on to produce even better episodes in the future (ie- the pilot to 24 got me to watch again, the second episode has me hooked completely), but the first episode must be at least good for me to have any more than pure faith on chances for improvement. If there are any other exceptions to this, I'd love to hear them, cause I've been wracking my brain for such anomolies.

Scott Mendelson

How about Seinfeld? I'm sure that there are other examples that I can't think of.

This reasoning just doesn't make sense to me. Can you think of any logical reason why the show would not get any better than the premiere? If you could give a logical explanation instead of just examples of where the show has gone downhill after the premiere then it would make your idea believable. The JL premiere also had the problem of having to introduce the characters and group them together.

I think that it is being a bit silly to judge an entire series on the first episode. But then, I liked the premiere, I'd probably give it 4 out of 5 as most others have. Yeah, it's no BTAS, but how could you expect it to possibly be that? It's like comparing apples and oranges. You have to have different expectations for this show and even then can't expect the show to meet those expectations starting with the very first ep. when the staff has so much more to worry about in terms of believably pulling the team together.

randrace

11-19-2001, 02:05 AM

It might get better, actually. There are a lot of changes in the series as it progresses. Bruce Timm has said that the scope of the episodes varies as does the amount of levity, which characters appear, and so on. For this series, it seems, there's a good chance that it will improve later in the season as all of the writing/story editing bugs are worked out and a clearer definition of the show begins to form. For instance, in the pilot, WW and Hawkgirl both seemed very similar, but their characters will become more individualized in upcoming episodes. Similarly, more familiar scenarios and villains will pop up, which should please lots of the fans (as their faves appear).

I give the pilot a thumbs-up, but maybe not the big 4 or 5 star welcome others are giving it. It was action-packed, but lacked the dramatic weight of some of the episodes of the Batman series/videos. Also, the characters, except MM, just weren't fleshed out enough to make them interesting. I suspect this will change as the series goes on as well.

JckNapier2

11-19-2001, 02:58 AM

Hmm...

Let me try this again... While I am not saying that the pilot to any show will be the best episode of the series and thus all other episodes will be lesser, I do believe that the quality of the first episode should be an indicator of what the show will deliver. IE - a good initial show will usually lead one to expect that the series will be of a similar quality, while a poor pilot can leave one to expect that the show overall will be dissapointing.

Granted, exceptions are possible (I thought of one! Law and Order SVU, which was cheesy, sentimental, preechy, and woodenly acted its first season, now outclasses the original Law and Order, which is having its worst season ever), but overall, a truly bad pilot (I found Secret Orgins to be genuinely mediocre) rarely bodes well for the future.

Still, come what may, I will watch and tape In Blackest Night this Monday evening. I stuck around when Homicide turned into the Paul Falsone Show in season six and quality writing went out the door (which is twice as sad as season five was it's best ever). I still watch The X-Files despite the fact that its central arc is completed (I always viewed X-Files as Scully's tragic, eight year assimulation into Mulder; she now has a child to compensate for the fact that, like Mulder, she is alone) and there are no more questions worth answering. After all, I'm a fan and that's what fans do. And I hope I can eat my words and be pleasently surprised. Here's for hoping.

Scott Mendelson

Ed Liu

11-19-2001, 10:22 AM

Howdy,

Originally posted by JckNapier2
All valid points, but I cannot, with the exception of The Simpsons, think of a single high-quality show that started off with a cruddy or mediocre pilot.

I suppose this is all highly subjective, depending on your definition of "high-quality show," but...

The premieres of _Friends_ and _Frasier_ were, IMO, insipid rehashes of funnier comedies that had happened before. I acutally stopped watching both shows after 2 or 3 episodes, and then restarted late in the season after they had gotten their groove. Of course, both have slipped pretty far back into lame sitcom mediocrity (I think both shows should really call it a day after this season), but they did have their high points well after their premieres.

_Farscape_'s premiere was pretty blah, being another visit into familiar _Star Trek_ territory, but they turned a corner after about a season and started doing some seriously weird, experimental stuff that pushed the boundaries of televised sci-fi, even if they don't always work.

While I wouldn't call it "mediocre," the premiere of _Sports Night_ was really rocky compared to the later episodes (the laugh track didn't help at all), but after having watched the entire run of the show, the pilot episode had far more potential in it than actual greatness.

If I can swing into a comics metaphor here, the original _Swamp Thing_ was essentially another Frankenstein story, albeit one well told. I don't mean to slam Len Wein and Bernie Wrightson here, but Alan Moore took the title to heights the original writers couldn't even conceive of.

I had issues with the pilot, and I completely agree with your analysis of TNBA and Batman Beyond. I was truly disappointed to watch every single BB episode degenerate into puncheminnaface by the last 10 minutes. However, I think JL managed to achieve what it needed to achieve in its pilot episode.

-- Ed/Ace

Luminous

11-19-2001, 11:55 AM

I enjoyed the fact that all these wonderful characters were on the screen at the same time. The story was for the most part OK. I have more nit-picky things than anything to say about it.

An example would be in some scenes, the aliens' blasters seemed to affect Superman and in others they didn't? One thing in particular that bugged me was that the animators did not "move" Hawkgirl's wings in a "realistic" manner. In fact, there is one scene about half way through the movie that she flies in from the left, stops in mid-flight and just floats there without any flapping of the wings. I'm not too in-the-know when it comes to Thanagar, but maybe her race can levitate and the wings are used to glide along??? Don't know. If not, it just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, those are the kinds of things I was looking at. Well, that and the fact that I just don't feel like Supe's new voice is befitting one of his size. Bring back Daly!!!

Maxie Zeus

11-19-2001, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by JckNapier2
Hmm...

Let me try this again... While I am not saying that the pilot to any show will be the best episode of the series and thus all other episodes will be lesser, I do believe that the quality of the first episode should be an indicator of what the show will deliver. IE - a good initial show will usually lead one to expect that the series will be of a similar quality, while a poor pilot can leave one to expect that the show overall will be dissapointing.

Oh, I'll certainly go along with you this far. A pilot episode does function as a pretty good indicator of a series' potential, which is to say that you can get a pretty good idea of where the strengths will be (or should be), and a pretty good idea of where weaknesses will crop up. But that means one should be wary of overgeneralizing from the pilot. After all, the creators will also be able to spot strengths and weaknesses in the pilot and (hopefully) be able to correct them.

In other words, the pilot can give you a sense of the show, but that doesn't mean you should judge the series based only on its pilot.

As for JL specifically, part of our differing reactions, I think, is that we see different things in it. I actually like the sleek, stylized designs and the fluid action scenes they make possible. I recognize the possibility of some fine character interplay (especially between Flash and other characters) that in a big war scenario like "Secret Origins" will necessarily take a back seat. I'm anticipating that not every ep will deal with an alien invasion, and so there will be other eps that can deal more intimately with the characters.

Does that make sense? :)

Failure

11-19-2001, 03:21 PM

I think both of you (Maxie Zeus and JckNapier2) make good points. In general, you are supposed to be more lenient in critquing the series premieres, because not everything is set in stone, you don't know which chemistries are flowing, what's working or not etc. Which is what MZ is saying I believe. Shows tend to get better past the premiere. But JN, you're right in that, pilots are pretty good at showing the potential of a series. Rarely, does a good show have a miserable pilot. Even the Simpsons pilot, having re-watched it yesterday with the commentary on, even though the producers didn't know what they were doing, and even though basically it wasn't ready for primetime, it had its funny moments and the heart that capture the shows essence in the future.

That said, I think you have to more lenient in criticizing the JL pilot, because rarely will a show have to introduce 7 major characters. 2 hour movies barely do justice developing 4 or 5 major characters, a 70 minute pilot is not going have the time to go into depth. Although I think we'll see that JL is a more action oriented show than BTAS, the fact that not every character will be present in each episode should give the writers more opportunities to get in depth about the characters. But character development will probably be a slower, drawn out process.

What I gathered from the pilot was that the chemistry between the characters was good, the story was engaging, and even though the animation/dialogue/plot had its kinks, I think the show has great potential.

mmiller683

11-19-2001, 03:26 PM

I can't completely recommend the first three episodes. Though I understand that the first three episodes were saddled with the unenviable task of introducing 7 heroes and a villain I was disappointed. I won't argue with the choices of making Wonder Woman a rookie or Green Lantern a marine. I would have gone a different way but those were fine choices. What I am unhappy about is the writing. The story itself was hackneyed, annoying and in some cases baffling. How could an alien who is more afraid of sunlight than Dracula run for Senator? Why doesn't Superman ever use his heat vision until after J'onn is almost electrocuted? Why if the Flash can outrun all of the alien ship blasts does Superman keep running right into them? Why doesn't Green Lantern ever create a protective bubble around them when they are walking into danger? Why does all the dialogue sound like it should be spoken by the Wonder Twins? Its story problems like these that distract me as a viewer and tempers my enthusiasm for the animation and the characters. It was the writing of Batman:TAS and Superman which I used as a draw to pull in people who don't appreciate animation to watch those shows. I am hoping that the story lines and writing improve.

Vin

11-19-2001, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by mmiller683
It was the writing of Batman:TAS and Superman which I used as a draw to pull in people who don't appreciate animation to watch those shows. I am hoping that the story lines and writing improve.

I couldn't have said it any better.

Kal-el

11-19-2001, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by mmiller683
How could an alien who is more afraid of sunlight than Dracula run for Senator? Why doesn't Superman ever use his heat vision until after J'onn is almost electrocuted? Why if the Flash can outrun all of the alien ship blasts does Superman keep running right into them? Why doesn't Green Lantern ever create a protective bubble around them when they are walking into danger? Why does all the dialogue sound like it should be spoken by the Wonder Twins? Its story problems like these that distract me as a viewer and tempers my enthusiasm for the animation and the characters.

All very good questions mm683. I was wondering the same things. It's like Supes was conveintly "un-super" or just daydreaming and GL was a bit slow to jump to the aid of the others. Flash was easily sidestepping alien weapons fire. After getting hit so many times, you'd think Supes would be tired of being blasted through buildings and mountains. Maybe some evasive manuevers there Supes? Heat vision on the fritz? Wonder Woman kicks Flash out of his alien shackles, and Superman couldn't pull his hands out? Hmmm. Not so sure about that. GL couldn't active his ring while his hands were stuck in the alien stuff? Why not? Flash couldn't vibrate himself out? (he did when encased in a block of ice with Superman in S:TAS) MM couldn't pass through it, like he did several times with walls, floors, etc during the ep? How come? Do they forget about their powers sometimes? Whoops, brainfart there...forgot I had heat vision, super strength, super speed, power ring, etc.
Frustrating...

metaphysician

11-19-2001, 10:21 PM

Besides, the Pale Martians were observing earth for at least 2 years. Thats more than enough time for them to have come up with some ways to neutralize various heroes. The bindings were probably designed to keep really strong people inside, and the gas was probably designed to sap power.

I mean, none of the heroes present should have been unknowns to the Pale Martians. They would realize the threat, and work counter measures.

Joe Tully

11-20-2001, 03:27 AM

Originally posted by Luminous

An example would be in some scenes, the aliens' blasters seemed to affect Superman and in others they didn't? One thing in particular that bugged me was that the animators did not "move" Hawkgirl's wings in a "realistic" manner. In fact, there is one scene about half way through the movie that she flies in from the left, stops in mid-flight and just floats there without any flapping of the wings. I'm not too in-the-know when it comes to Thanagar, but maybe her race can levitate and the wings are used to glide along??? Don't know. If not, it just doesn't make sense.

In the more modern interpretations of Hawkman and Hawkgirl, their wings haven't been real but only fake things that help them fly. They don't need to flap because I believe they are made of an anti-gravity metal. I am assuming that Timm and the gang are going with the more modern interpretation since the wings very rarely move at all. We will have to see how this stuff is explained in the first Hawkgirl-focused storyline.

Livewire

03-16-2002, 06:51 PM

Okay. It's been a long time since we talked about "Secret Origins"-the one that started it all. Because it's airing tonight, March 16 at 7:00, as part of CN's Cartoon Theatre, I thought this thread was appropriate. Plus, you can rate it. So..how did you like this ep?

JohnStewart-GL

03-16-2002, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Livewire
Okay. It's been a long time since we talked about "Secret Origins"-the one that started it all. Because it's airing tonight at 7:00 as part of CN's Cartoon Theatre, I thought this thread was appropriate. Plus, you can rate it. So..how did you like this ep?
i missed it is it comming on again tomorrow

Livewire

03-16-2002, 08:32 PM

You can catch it again tomorrow at 10:00 in the morning (Eastern Time.)

JohnStewart-GL

03-16-2002, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Livewire
You can catch it again tomorrow at 10:00 in the morning (Eastern Time.)
thanks,babe.your a lifesaver.

peterparker05

03-16-2002, 09:19 PM

I know the episode got some flack from fanboys when it first aired, but I really enjoyed it. It's an awesome adventure/team-up story and it combined the White Maritans and the Invaders into one powerful invasion force, the Imperium. Plus Batman's last line of "Secret Origins" is a classic.

Squall

03-17-2002, 06:22 AM

"Secret Origins" was great! The first 10 minutes was pure Batman: The Animated Series nostalgia (and he was the first hero on screen!), and the next half hour was virtually another crossover episode from The Batman/Superman Adventures. :D Then all the JL members show up and the real fun begins!

I can remember, when it first came on, I recorded it on a VHS tape, then watched it five times in three days... :D I can remember thinking to myself, "THIS is what Superfriends could have been but never was."

On a side note, has anyone ever watched episodes of Justice League and Supefriends side-by-side? You can really see how good we've got it with Justice League when you watch the train wreck that is Superfriends right after an episode of Justice League. :p Justice League is high quality, and takes the DC Universe seriously... and Superfriends is low quality, written by people with absolutely no grasp of the characters, their backstories, even basic science... :rolleyes:

rggkjg1

03-17-2002, 01:40 PM

so far, secret origins is the best episode. the thing i don't get is the title, "secret origins" the only origins the episode talks about is the martian manhunter and wonder woman. they should have included all of the origins in some detail, i could see superman and batman's origing not being in the episode since it was talked about in superman TAS ans batman TAS. what about john stewart? how does he become the green lantern in the animated universe? isn't kyle rayner the current green lantern. and what about hawkwoman and flash, even though some what of flash's origin is in the brave and the bold part 1. most of the hero's origins are differn't in little ways in the animated universe and i would like to see what they are.

The Green Hornet

03-17-2002, 01:50 PM

i loved the fact that superman made fun of the fact that batman was having trouble taking out those scientists

really this was a pretty darn good episode

my ONLY beef is the whole Jonn shielding the batman telepathically thing-- seemed like a fishy explanation

Salvor

03-17-2002, 01:59 PM

This was the poorest episode of the series to me. The plot was very cliched, the animation really horrible at times. And the only thing that saved characterization in this ep was the rather nice interaction between Supes and Bats at the beginning.

I've just watched it in French. The voice cast was great! I was happy to see they kept Superman's voice from STAS. Still the animation looked even shoddier on a tv screen (than on a computer screen)

JohnStewart-GL

03-17-2002, 02:28 PM

Once again thanks Livewire. for telling me. I gave it 4 and a half stars. because i really like how it was the only story that fetured them all. It was a nice way to introduce the team.
.

MattL.

03-17-2002, 02:47 PM

Alot of people razed on the pilot but I for one totally loved it. That includes the whole retro War of the Worlds feel. Alot of people picked on it for being a cliche alien invasion story. To me the fact that it was familiar was part of the charm. Considering all the alien invasion stories in comics, why not do that with *the* alien invasion story?

Heh, I know for me I probably would have liked War of the
Worlds evenmore if it had DC superheroes in it. :p

I thought it was fantastic and beat the hell out of every version of the JL's first meeting I've ever read.

Great story, great action and great dialog.

Also as much as it may have had the WOTW influnce I saw some Neon Genesis Evangelion influence to. I remember watching the episode thinking "Oh my god, Batman, Superman and the other heroes of the DCU are fighting Angels. Eat that Shinji Ikari!" LOL.

warmachine04

03-17-2002, 06:22 PM

Overall, "Secret Origins" was very good. The story and voice work could of been better but the characters and chemistry really stand out very well. Im awaiting my DVD of "Secret Origins" in April 23. :D

mbaker

03-18-2002, 05:48 AM

I loved "Secret Origins" I saw it the day it premiered back in November, and I've loved it ever since. Your right about how they could've given it A better title, but other than that, it was an awsome movie, and a great way to launch the series. By the way, did anyone notice that this time around the movie aired with the three episode's original fade outs leading to commercial breaks instead of them making their own fade outs in the middle of A scene? Just thought I'd point that out. I look forward to buying the DVD on April 23rd!

Apache Chief

03-18-2002, 10:45 AM

I loved it. I like seeing all seven heroes together, and I like the fact that the whole world is at stake. That scene where the aliens begin to change the atmosphere - very cool! And I loved the music! I don't think the animation in this ep. gets enough credit. Watch the vapor trail coming out of the Batjet when he attacks the alien walker...

Livewire

03-19-2002, 06:24 PM

The more I watch "Secret Origins", the more I like it! This ep was basically all about MM, and that's fine with me. :D Because of "Secret Origins", I'm now a MM fan. J'onn is really cool! C.L.'s voice just fits MM so perfectly.

I don't think this ep deserves 5 stars, but it is one of my favorites. It was neat seeing the whole team together. And though I may have had some qualms about WW's voice, it didn't sound too bad at times. Overall, I'd give this episode 3 1/2 stars.

The Green Hornet

03-19-2002, 06:29 PM

imho her voice gets a little better every time i hear it (with a few exceptions-- some of her Hera help me's are a little weak(

all in all Secret Origins is probably a nice 4 star episode

flash runs up hte side of the building which i think is pretty cool-- he also creates a whirlwind to disperse the gas that had GL out cold

G. Wen

03-20-2002, 05:40 AM

I didn't like "Secret Origins". The story was empty. There was a lot of action but no strong plot to back it up. And the "aliens attacking the earth" story could have been done in a more original way. And why were those aliens attacking Earth anyway?

JonnyQuest

01-12-2003, 12:28 PM

Holy smokes Bats !

That was a great episode, with the first two's exellent !

After three episodes, I can clearly see that I'm a Flash fan now !

My rating: 10 fingers up !

Drachentöter

01-12-2003, 01:42 PM

I wasn't quite so enthusiastic, but it was a good three episodes. My main complaint was the fact that we didn't get to see more of the Alien Invaders alone. They were just generic...alien invaders. The action, the music, and the voice work are all top-notch though.

confide in nate

01-14-2003, 06:26 AM

the only thing i didn't like was Diana's comming to man's world, I feel the amazons should have held a contest to send the best amazon to aid man's world o,fcourse it would be Diana :)

Fernus

01-28-2003, 08:35 PM

I made a commentmant to reply to the fist season to JL and I hope to get finished before JL season 2.Okay, said and done.

I think this was a very good start to the justice league season. I didn't see it until late Feb. because I thought it would be just like the Superfriends, but I am glad I got it on video and watched. I love the way they kept Batman all dark like in B:TAS. Same with Superman, though I know some people did not. I have been a fan of Martian Manhunter and I glad they put him in there. I like the Flash, even though he doesn't run as fast as I know he can. Wonder Woman came out a cool character and you can deffinatly how her attitude changes as the series goes. I'm not mad that they chose John Stewart to play GL, but thats really because I did'nt like the Green Lanterns ( to tell you the truth, I never read their comics) until I saw the cartoons. I ain't mad that they chose Haekgirl either. I belive that she makes a great addtion to the team.
Really, the only thing I d'dn't like about it was that they could've chosen a real J'onn enemy, like the real White Martians (Protex would've been great as the leader)
A really great start to the Justice League.

Robin

05-29-2004, 04:43 PM

While preparing for tonight's "Starcrossed," I decided to pop in the "Secret Origins" DVD, just to see how it all began. I can't believe how the far the show has come. The opening to "Secret Origins" wasn't the best, but it had some greatmoments until it faltered out near the end. I still love the first two parts of the series opener. The animation is still pretty nice, and most of the voice work is not not bad. You can see where alot of the corners were cut and it is still hard to get used to that Superman design. While it's disappointing that this series is coming to an end, I am glad it's giving birth to what could be a great new chapter in the DCUA history.

Fone Bone

05-29-2004, 05:32 PM

Other series with less than stellar openings: Star Trek: The Next Generation, Farscape, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Friends, Frasier, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, The Drew Carey Show, The Simpsons, Family Guy, Angel (great but not as great as the series would be), Law and Order: SVU, Everybody Loves Raymond, and X-Men: Evolution. You're in great company b.t.!

I liked this episode when I first saw it. Slam bang gee whiz and goshy willickers fun. Sure, the animation wasn't that tight, the music was blah, and a lot of the dialogue (except Batman's of course) was creaky. I had FUN watching this and it only revved me up for more which is exactly what a first episode should do. Everyone who worked on this series should be proud of their accomplishments (yes this episode included) and know that they made a fan of Matt Zimmer for life!:) Score: ***1/2.

Nick K.

05-29-2004, 06:44 PM

This is probablly one of JL's best. Though there were some little errors in the episode it was still good and it's not the kind of thing to spoil the story. It was great to see the heroes coming together. The opening with the two heroes we know was a good start and very smart. And now that it is time for Starcrossed, I am glad to say JL was a great series and I know JLU will be too.

The Penguin

08-06-2005, 01:43 AM

They're listening. They're watching. They're coming.

Tonight at 2 a.m. ET Cartoon Network airs the Justice League premiere, Secret Origins. Justice League: Season One will continue to air in this timeslot.

http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/jl/tb.jpg

Episode #01 - Secret Origins Part 1
Original Airdate - November 17th, 2001 - Series Premiere

As Batman tracks down hostile aliens tampering with deep-space monitors, Superman is disarming the world's missiles. Aliens invade the Earth and wreak havoc in many major cities, and neither Batman or Superman are able to stop them. They later discover and free the imprisoned J'onn J'onzz, but are confronted by an alien army.

Episode #02 - Secret Origins Part 2
Original Airdate - November 17th, 2001 - Series Premiere

The seven Justice Leaguers come together for the first time in an attempt to repel the alien invaders.

Episode #03 - Secret Origins Part 3
Original Airdate - November 17th, 2001 - Series Premiere

The heroes defeats the alien invaders, and officially form the Justice League.

Comments?

They're here!

Style

08-06-2005, 02:05 AM

W I D E S C R E E N ! ! !

Also... How lame was tha original JL opening/Theme? The new JLU one RAWKS!!!

sdp

08-06-2005, 02:26 AM

I'm usually awake at this hour, and have nothing to watch so it's cool. I also never saw JL.

It is widescreen i didn't notice until i read it was, weird. So far it's entertaining but the animation seems very different, doesn't look like JLU or TNBA or something in between...

and i like the War of the Worlds reference with the "tripod
Edit:maybe i don't like the WotW references...too out of place.

this also makes me think that JL as well as other superheroes don't belong in the Batman Universe, but i the JL universe Batman does belong. Like B:TAS is not in continuity with JL but JL is in continuity with Batman, hope that is understandable. I just can't see Batman from TAS having this battles but i can see JL Batman having the B:TAS background.

sdp

08-06-2005, 02:28 AM

W I D E S C R E E N ! ! !

Also... How lame was tha original JL opening/Theme? The new JLU one RAWKS!!! nah, I don't like the JLU opening either, i actually like this one better.

karasu

08-06-2005, 03:14 AM

The script was a little rough, the voice acting was a little stilted, Superman lacked the ability to perform bilateral movements and WW seemed a lil too naieve. But man was it cool when she first started blocking those lasers with her bracelets! I hadn't seen that since Lynda Carter reruns. Despite it's problems I really enjoyed "Secret Origins" because it showed so much promise. It was the freaking Justice League, animated. When I originally watched it I was smiling from ear to ear. I loved Batman in this storyline. I watch the DVD every now and again just to see how far the show has come since. Thinking about it makes me miss Star Sapphire, Tsukuri and the lot. Even though they weren't in Secret Origins.

sdp

08-06-2005, 03:29 AM

we don't really get to know much about Green Lantern and hawkgirl, i mean with lash he had aleady made an appearance, but it'd have been nice instead of giving WW sucha long intro(ok it wasn't that long) but still.

Krypton_Knight

08-06-2005, 03:51 AM

W I D E S C R E E N ! ! !

Also... How lame was tha original JL opening/Theme? The new JLU one RAWKS!!! Different strokes. I love the original theme and I'm pretty much "meh" to the JLU theme. It just sounds much more epic and heroic.

They could do a lot better with the CGI though.

KK

Batman Fan

08-06-2005, 10:12 AM

Well, I'll spare you from the long review, because I'm sure everyone's said it all, but this was a great way to start off the series, by putting the world in the most danger, and having all these heroes come together to save it. It was just a classic superhero story, and I always wondered Batman's reaction to facing aliens. There was great action, seeing all these new heroes use their unique abilities, from WW deflecting bracelets, to GL's ring, to Hawkgirl's mace, everyone league member got a proper amount of action. The story was a great origin to J'onn, and putting him up against the people who destroyed his people and having him victorious must've been hard to deal with, and fulfilling to see them gone. The VA's were a little off as the music, but I'm probably only saying that because I'm so used to their voices on JLU. Anyways, great beginning episode.

****1/2

Funkatron

08-06-2005, 10:58 AM

Secret Origins = Batman and Friends!!

Thank goodness they toned him down later on :p.

jv2k

08-06-2005, 11:09 AM

I have to agree with the people who said the JLU opening is not as good, personally when I first heard it I thought it was really lame and out of place outside of the 80s.
Anyway this brings back memories watching the JL premire followed by samurai jack on cartoon netowork primetime. I miss the old format of CN V_V. Besides that it was a good starting episode even if the voices weren't quite right and I have no idea what they were thinking when they added those lines to wonder womans and supermans face. Aside from that it was good.
****

Dusty

08-06-2005, 04:40 PM

I loved it!!!!! the original JL is ten times better than JLU, plus like i have said before i prefer Superman and Wonder Woman with the lines on their faces, JL Rocks!

D.

Jordo

08-06-2005, 05:01 PM

This was my first time seeing this episode!!! This is one of the few I haven't seen.

WOW... That was a great episode. So interesting. I never knew how it started. I'm so used to JL and JLU, that it didn't even register with me till the middle "wait...Theres no Justice League yet...They are all meeting for the first time!"

The voice acting was SO BAD...And I mean that in a good way, because it's improved 100%... Its so interesting to me (from an objective viewpoint) to see the voice actors still not quite sure of the characters, not really owning them yet (except Conroy of course).

I also loved how it started with Batman, cause that's what people will pretty much want to see when tuning into a new Timm DCAU show... Just a nice way to begin the series.

When they pretended to kill Batman (how did he escape anyway?).. that was pretty shocking. Just the manner in which it's done, and Flashes reaction. Scary.

-Jordan

awh1978

08-06-2005, 05:16 PM

I haven't seen this for quite a while, so it's quite a difference when you compare it to the new episodes. I'm glad that the rough edges were smoothed out, because some of the VA and dialogue was shaky and the plot was a little too formulaic (each episode was essentially fight, talk, then fight some more).

One thing I didn't pay attention to the first time around was the design for the alien diggers. Two pulsating red spheres powering a pumping piston in the middle? I'm shocked they got away with that.

I hadn't seen that since Lynda Carter reruns.
This is slightly off topic, but I always wondered why they never got her to do a guest spot on the show. They snagged Adam West for BTAS, and they've plucked actors out of retirement (Jason Hervey, for example), so that's not necessarily an issue.

jv2k

08-06-2005, 06:25 PM

I personally think most of season 2 was better than most of JLU season 1 and some of 2.

Fone Bone

08-06-2005, 06:26 PM

You're not alone GMahler. I watched this again and parts 2 and 3 are really draggy. The dialogue is worse than I remembered it too. The animation is bland without either the Dark Deco of BTAS, the futuristic feel of STAS, or the anime tech backgrounds of Batman Beyond. The second season and JLU improved on this show in every way. I'm still glad that we had this show but after seeing the heights achieved in season two and JLU this can only look bad in comparison.

Oh and JLU theme> Justice League theme.

James

08-06-2005, 06:58 PM

Secret Origins = Batman and Friends!!

Thank goodness they toned him down later on :p.
To be fair, it was the transistional point between the DCAU's extreme Batman focus and something new. Makes sense to ease that movement in by having it being a largely Batman orientated episode.

Fone Bone

08-06-2005, 09:53 PM

I personally think that Season 2 is way overrated. Yes, it is a very consistent season, and almost all the episodes have solid core stories, but it was plagued by the many problems of the 2-part format. Even an episode like "Twilight" which I love to death has the unnecessary New Gods subplot. And then there are episodes like "Terror Beyond" and "Only a Dream" which have fantastic conclusions but suffer from way too mach padding in the first part. Also, many episodes, especially "Secret Society" and "Tabula Rasa," seem like stretched out 1-parters. In all of Season 2 the only episodes that really justified multi-part status were "A Better World," "Hereafter" and "Starcrossed." I'm willing to say "Twilight" and "Wild Cards" were very close to justifying 2-part status since they are rather important stories.

Honestly, pretty much every episode from JLU that's comparable to a Season 2 show is an improvement. "FTMWHE" is better than "Twilight," "The Return" is better than "Tabula Rasa," "Wake the Dead" is better than "Terror Beyond," "Doomsday Sanction" is better than "A Better World," "The Cadmus Finale Without a Name" is better than "Starcrossed," and JLU is just a better show overall.

I hate to sound so harsh, as I do still enjoy JL, but JLU is easily on the level of B:TAS and S:TAS, and I have an extremely strong attachment to those two shows.

Agreed.Oh, I totally agree that JLU is WAAAAAY better than JL season two. (Except I DID find Wake the Dead a WEE bit overrated). I was just saying that when you compared it to season one ESPECIALLY Secret Origins season one seems rather deficient in comparison.

How good is JLU? Just about as good as anything in the DCAU. It's had it's rough spots (Hawk and Dove, Once and Future Thing) but the good thing about a story arc is that it can make weaker episodes seem stronger during the long run. I'm currently rewatching Justice League and I can't wait to get to JLU because I'm certain I'll like Initiation, Ultimatum and Dark Heart a lot better after the Cadmus finale.

Dusty

08-06-2005, 10:11 PM

Personally i prefer the origanal JL animation it seems more crisp and clear also they don't use the cg stuff too much, like in JLU,

D

The Penguin

08-06-2005, 10:41 PM

This really took me back. :) It was great seeing it in widescreen too! Good work CN! :cool: Looking for news on the yet to premiere Justice League was what brought me to Toon Zone in the first place. I joined a little over a month after this talkback was originally posted.

This episode served as a great transition from The New Batman/Superman Adventures to the next series in the DCAU. We got J'onn's origin in this episode and his position as the heart and soul of the Justice League was established. I don't know about anyone else, but he was the character I knew the least about going in and now I seem his as an essential part of the group.

I also liked our introduction to Diana and we learned enough about Flash, GL and Hawkgirl so we could have a basic understanding of their characters. And of course over time we have really gotten to know them.

The major conflict of an alien invasion coupled with the disarmament of most of the world, created a real need for the Justice League and the scale of the situation would have been too much for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lanterm, Hawkgirl or the Martian Manhunter to handle on their own, but their forces combined was able to bring an end to the fighting. They would have been a success if it were not for all seven of them working together.

Style

08-06-2005, 11:20 PM

I guess I'm in the minority here, but it was a blast seeing it again. And I thought the action really held up. But I guess I don't have a sense of taste.*

And I might be a little forgiving of this for another reason: Sure, one major complaint is "It's just 'War of the Worlds' plus Superheroes,:yawn: " But I always liked to think of it as "Hey, it's 'War of the Worlds' plus Superheroes!:D " And I prefer this version of the story to Cruise and Spielberg's version.

*As for my lack of taste, this ties into my "Epilouge"-esque deepest, darkest secret, that should it ever be revealed I would lose all credibility on these boards and nothing I say would ever be taken seriously again. (Not that what I say is taken seriously anyway, but this secret would blow me out of the water.)

Hero Supreme

08-22-2006, 12:48 PM

a new review (http://servewithchips.blogspot.com/2006/08/ink-blots-xxvi-justice-league-secret.html)

Put together, the first three episodes of the series Justice League comprise a feature length depiction of the formation of DC's premier superhero team -- The Justice League. The team consists of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman along with the Flash (the fastest man alive), Green Lantern (has a green ring that gives him powers like flight, green lasers, force fields, etc.) Hawkgirl (has bird wings and a powerful mace that she uses to smash things up), and the Martian Manhunter (can read minds, change form, and phase through solid objects).

The plot revolves around your typical alien invasion including War of the Worldesque tripods (but they also have dogs). Batman is the first to become wise to the alien plan, and he and Superman form an uneasy alliance. But when full scale invasion begins, the World's Finest need back up. Enter the Justice League. Of course, for the rest of the film, the heroes must learn to work together to defeat the aliens. Pretty standard alien invasion fair. The story would have been more compelling by putting a face on the enemy, or by having a more recognizable menace. Still, at least the aliens didn't just roll over. They made the unification of the heroes a necessity. There is a good deal of action spread amongst the various heroes throughout the show, but none of it is terribly jaw-dropping. Lastly, knowing the excellent stories to follow in the Justice League series, I can't help but enjoy seeing the beginnings here.

As an introduction of the team, Superman and Batman are brought in as continuations of the characters from their respective series. Wonder Woman is shown defying her people to don her armor to help the "outside world." The Martian Manhunter is the last of his kind, after his race fell to the aliens long ago. The wise cracking show-off Flash (voiced by Smallville's Lex Luthor), militaristic Green Lantern, and warrior Hawkgirl basically just show up to help.

The overall plot here is similar to that of the more recent Ultimate Avengers: The Movie (http://servewithchips.blogspot.com/2006/08/ink-blots-xxiii-ultimate-avengers.html), only here the aliens put up a better fight, the League are less complex characters and have less issues, and they are also sans Hulk menace. Your preference for the films may depend on your fondness for the team members. Personally I think Batman and Flash are cooler than Thor or Captain America, and that may explain my leaning toward Secret Origins. Still, both films are more likely to please fans of superheroes than general audiences. Thus, I think the films deserve the same grade of a solid B.

Cortez2301

10-10-2006, 07:51 PM

Great episode.Not the best but the 3-parter was awesome.I liked the fact that some of them already knew each other from the start.really fun and he alien invasion was cool.One of the big moments of suspense was when the astronaut died at the beginning before the opening credits.Very chilling.

seryass

09-26-2007, 03:30 PM

Hi,

This is my first post here so just wanted to say hello to everyone first.

I was wondering in the second part of Secret Origins how does everyone interpret Batman being mentally shielded by Jonn Jonzz?

I personally think he shielded him so that it appeared Batman had died after the aliens had fired at him so later he could do the sneak attack which, of course, he did.

Wonderwall

09-26-2007, 03:46 PM

Yes thats exactly why J'onn did that. Probably told Bruce to hang tight as white martians walked by him.

Russkafin

09-26-2007, 03:46 PM

Welcome to the boards!

I agree with your assessment. Keep in mind the martians are telepathic so they should have been able to sense where Batman was... but with J'onn shielding him, they could no longer sense him, so they assumed he was dead.

batmanbeyond13

10-15-2007, 08:48 PM

I can't believe it's almost 6 years since we first watched Justice League.

AlienX

06-14-2008, 10:53 PM

I personally think that Season 2 is way overrated. Yes, it is a very consistent season, and almost all the episodes have solid core stories, but it was plagued by the many problems of the 2-part format. Even an episode like "Twilight" which I love to death has the unnecessary New Gods subplot. And then there are episodes like "Terror Beyond" and "Only a Dream" which have fantastic conclusions but suffer from way too mach padding in the first part. Also, many episodes, especially "Secret Society" and "Tabula Rasa," seem like stretched out 1-parters. In all of Season 2 the only episodes that really justified multi-part status were "A Better World," "Hereafter" and "Starcrossed." I'm willing to say "Twilight" and "Wild Cards" were very close to justifying 2-part status since they are rather important stories.

Honestly, pretty much every episode from JLU that's comparable to a Season 2 show is an improvement. "FTMWHE" is better than "Twilight," "The Return" is better than "Tabula Rasa," "Wake the Dead" is better than "Terror Beyond," "Doomsday Sanction" is better than "A Better World," "The Cadmus Finale Without a Name" is better than "Starcrossed," and JLU is just a better show overall.

I hate to sound so harsh, as I do still enjoy JL, but JLU is easily on the level of B:TAS and S:TAS, and I have an extremely strong attachment to those two shows.

Agreed.

Not really JLU had some great episodes but the whole series feels disjointed because in every other DCAU show they have a set of main characters and supporing characters to build around and JL had the 7 members but JLU had nobody we had green arrow supergirl and the question but they didnt appear that much all the stories were pretty much up in the air we got a whole episode about gold booster another about the flash but it didnt feel like we were getting enough character development becuase we had a different set of characters in every episode . I really liked JL season 2 there were great moments but never quite develiered on endings secret society but overal I felt I new these characters over time ith JLU you can only get the ful enjotment of this series if you catch all the cameos and the action was good but I never realy cared for action in superheroes shows because the plots were so good