Computer Chip Approved for Humans

[Avery]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6237364/

Thought this was a terribly interesting article.

Personally, I find this rather frightening. While the benefit to medical practice seems fairly big, I don't know. Something about having a chip inserted under my skin really turns me off. I think future threat of a large-scale invasion of privacy scam is too frightening to justify wanting one of these.

I'm having Minority Report flashbacks, of the eye-scanning stuff. *shudder*

[Beguiled]

i don't want to have a chip shoved under my skin!!!! *wailing* HELP ME!!!!! it scares me.....a lot.....more than spiders....:sweat:

[Kuja's Light]

I don't know if I'd like that concidering one of my beliefs, and no, the belief I'm referring to is not Biblical related. It just would feel weird as well, I suppose.

[Frank Castle]

I think it's wrong. Scientists need to be very, very careful with this.

[Kuja's Light]

I agree with you there, in my belief, I think the Government just wants us all tagged and everyone can be followed without a hitch.

[Classic Speedy]

This is The Beast. DO NOT GET THIS. :mad:

[SonGoku V3]

^ Heh, and some people think the Bible is fiction...LOL

[Classic Speedy]

Trust me. Do not get this.

[SonGoku V3]

Trust me. Do not get this.
Don't worry, I think some of us know this. ;) But hey, some people, if not alot of people, will get this anyway.

[chevy citation]

This sounds like something the gov't can inject in you without you knowing. Be careful when you get your next flu shot.

...Or maybe the reason flu shots are in short supply is because doctors are adding this microchip to them! :ack:

[EinBebop]

I believe the Bible is true. But the whole computer chip being the mark-of-the-beast thing is a guess at best, superstion at the worst. As far as "the mark" goes, have faith that you'll know it, and don't just believe what you've always been told.

[Classic Speedy]

A link to take as you will: http://www.tldm.org/News4/MarkoftheBeast.htm

[Shnay]

Unless I'm missing something, this doesn't sound like too big of a deal. I didn't read the article all that carefully, but it sounds like it's proposed to do any or all of these three things:

1. Blood types and allergies for emergencies. If a John Doe comes in for an accident, and he has a chip, they can check these things quickly with a scan.

2. Replacing paperwork. Doctors offices and hospitals have an astounding ammount of files stashed away in archives. Getting records digitalized that could be carried with the patient would simplify things.

3. Providing need to know information. If a guy with Alzheimer’s is brought in, they can check his vital information, even if he can't clearly communicate his name or condition. Also, if someone has had extensive surgeries or treatments, they can get the essential information, rather than every little detail of their medical history.

I don't think they'll be widespread anytime soon, and I don't think I'll be getting one, but I don't see any reason to cry "1984!" over this. When they're madatory, then we can discuss Government tracking theories, but until then, this sounds like medical professionals trying to make things easier for everyone.

[Classic Speedy]

True, they're not manditory.....yet. But I fear that they will be soon. If enough people blindly get these things, the government could require it to make things easier for themselves. You know, so that NOBODY isn't identifiable by the government.

Besides the Biblical stuff, the whole idea of a chip under my skin, basically making me a number, makes me wanna vomit.

[Kuja's Light]

Well, the reasons I'm against it is cause I think there's some dark secrets in the Governments. Yes, I think by conspiricies myself.

[chevy citation]

Unless I'm missing something, this doesn't sound like too big of a deal. I didn't read the article all that carefully, but it sounds like it's proposed to do any or all of these three things:

1. Blood types and allergies for emergencies. If a John Doe comes in for an accident, and he has a chip, they can check these things quickly with a scan.

2. Replacing paperwork. Doctors offices and hospitals have an astounding ammount of files stashed away in archives. Getting records digitalized that could be carried with the patient would simplify things.

3. Providing need to know information. If a guy with Alzheimer’s is brought in, they can check his vital information, even if he can't clearly communicate his name or condition. Also, if someone has had extensive surgeries or treatments, they can get the essential information, rather than every little detail of their medical history.


So it's like a medical bracelet or card that you're supposed keep with you.

The difference is that I don't know what the microchip says about me, only the doctor who put it in and the doctors who scan it later.

[Shnay]

If enough people blindly get these things, the government could require it to make things easier for themselves...I don't think anyone is going to blindly inject a computer chip into their skin. People will think more about the question "Would you like to be injected with a computer chip containing your personal medical data?" than "Would you like to Super Size that?" People are going to seriously consider this, both because it's a weird idea, and it costs $200. So I don't think people "blindly" getting them is a problem.

Furthermore, if the Government did try to make things mandatory, there would be uproar in the streets. We've seen too many movies and read too many books with Government (capital G) ID chips for mandatory implimentation to be accepted by the public. Although, we should remember that people got really upset when they were assigned a Social Security number, citing similar "I am not a number" arguments. Now nobody really cares about SS card numbers, and many think they make life a lot easier.

I know the idea of an injected computer chip invokes images of a futuristic distopia with Thought Police and Firemen burning books, but this instance is just an electronic medical bracelet, as chevy pointed out.



The difference is that I don't know what the microchip says about me, only the doctor who put it in and the doctors who scan it later.
True. But the idea that anything you wouldn't want to be on there would be on there would mean one of two things. One, the doctors of the United States are controlled by the government, and any attempts to go public with the truth about the chips has been silenced. Or, two, doctors are a secret society akin to the Freemasons, with their own nefarious agendas. :p I'm not really worried about either one.

The main problem, as stated in the article, is people outside of the medical field or the government getting your private medical data. There are some things on medical records that you might not want some hacker knowing, but it doesn't sound like there's too much of a risk of that, either.

[Roman Legion]

Ahh, I was wondering when news of VeriChip would come around.

I've done my share of research on this technology, and I believe there's too much room for unethical application of these devices down the road. I'm not only talking about future uses, either. Just wait until these things get hacked.

What's that? They already have security measures?


The VeriChip itself contains no medical records, just codes that can be scanned, and revealed, in a doctor’s office or hospital.

Ahh yes, all safe in a database somewhere... ::cough:: ...no, that doesn't make me feel any more secure. Oh, sure, there are already convenient databases with patient information, but now there's a physical key to embed into people. Wonderful.

Of course, there's plenty of fun things you can do with just an embedded key alone. Anyone with the capability of scanning such a code will now be able to build their own databases to associate keys with. Perhaps I just have a good imagination, but I can think of all sorts of things I could do with that kind of feature. ;-)

Incidentally, the "Mark of the Beast" implies a certain willing allegiance on the part of those who recieve it, so I don't see a need for concern.

EDIT: Oh dear, it already seems that people are ignoring or misreading the actual article. Be careful, folks.

--Romey

[Shnay]

People can tamper with medical records now. It's a different metod, but if someone wanted to, they could alter you medical records whether there's something in your skin or not.

I don't know all the details about security. That's something for those making them and those getting them to worry about. I'm trying to quell fears of the Govenment tracking you (as you live your boring, ordinary life) with one of these.

[Roman Legion]

People can tamper with medical records now. It's a different metod, but if someone wanted to, they could alter you medical records whether there's something in your skin or not.

Yes, exactly. They don't need a new toy.


I don't know all the details about security. That's something for those making them and those getting them to worry about.

Security details are mentioned in the article, and further information is available. I know all *I* need to know...


I'm trying to quell fears of the Govenment tracking you (as you live your boring, ordinary life) with one of these.

You need to look at the big picture. Once these devices are applied to humans, even just medical patients and the elderly, it becomes feasible to begin testing tracking systems. Implants in young children will likely soon follow, as a convenience to parents. At a certain point, the chips may likely become accepted as harmless, and people will welcome all the potential conveniences they may bring. The government isn't the only concern. Private industries should be seen as additional stakeholders. You can always trust big businesses, right?

So no, I don't forsee the hand of "Big Brother" coming down and enforcing the use of these chips to track people. If they wanted to do that, they'd have done so loooong ago. :p Instead, we'll casually accept the technology on our own, exposing ourselves to countless unseen dangers along the way.

--Romey

[Shnay]

Yes, exactly. They don't need a new toy.Good point. I don't work at a hospital, so I don't know how hard it is to access these things. My point was that it's not as though security issues about medical records are new, but your point it well taken.



Security details are mentioned in the article, and further information is available. I know all *I* need to know...
I stated in my first post that I didn't read it extremely carefully. Once it gets widespread I'll read up on it more, but I have a hard time seeing it catching on with the genereal public.


The government isn't the only concern. Private industries should be seen as additional stakeholders. You can always trust big businesses, right?Another good point. Again, I think my view that this isn't a big deal comes from the belief that this won't be all that widespread. Maybe I'm not looking at the big picture; maybe it will catch on and maybe various organizations will use it for unethical purposes. I think it's really too early to tell, though.

[wrenchien]

can i be deported instead of having the chip inserted? i heard mexico's lovely this time of year. :mad:

[Classic Speedy]

can i be deported instead of having the chip inserted? i heard mexico's lovely this time of year. According to the article I posted, Mexico is actually a worse place if you wanted to avoid the chip. And other areas of the world, such as Spain, are already using the chip for money purposes.
Incidentally, the "Mark of the Beast" implies a certain willing allegiance on the part of those who recieve it, so I don't see a need for concern. Which is what THAT is in Spain- voluntary, willing allegiance.

It's only a matter of time before the U.S., feeling like it's dragging its feet, joins in. And then the apocalypse begins.

[Roman Legion]

And other areas of the world, such as Spain, are already using the chip for money purposes. Which is what THAT is in Spain - voluntary, willing allegiance.

It's only a matter of time before the U.S., feeling like it's dragging its feet, joins in. And then the apocalypse begins.

Not the sort of "willing allegiance" I meant. There's more implied than just needing it for monetary transactions.

--Romey

[mikestorm]

The integration of computer chips into the human body? This is the first step in a very long and arduous path that ultimately ends with humanity collectively uttering the following statement:

"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

[Killtacular]

What is this Armaggeddon talk? I'm telling you now that the events in Revelations will not happen in our lifetime. Jesus said he will come "like a thief in the night". Call me crazy, but the attitude people have right now is one of paranoia and expectation. Thinking that you can 'catch' the robber in his tracks. Every generation thinks that their generation is the end times. Hank Hannegraf right now is writing a book that illustrates this, that explains why he thinks "Left Behind" is incorrect. People in the first generation of Israel thought they were in end times. People during WW1 thought we were in end times. People during WW2 thought we were in end times. It's getting annoying. If anything, Jesus' return would happen in times of PEACE.

Anyway, Revelations. Sorry, that's a book I do not put faith in. It's a book so flawed that trying to interpret it as fact is laughable. Especially when people only choose to say some of it is right and some of it is wrong. There's no grey area here. It's one or the other. And nothing in that book proves to me that the end times prophecy is more than just the delusions of a man gone insane living out the rest of his life in solitude in prison.

As for this chip. If you worry about getting the chip without knowing it (such as the flu shot), ask your doctor. Tell your doctor you're not interested. As for the government controlling the implanting of these chips, that really depends on who gets elected. Someone who is for the government controlling every aspect of society (JK) or someone who isn't to the same extent (GWB).

[Czar Gato]

What is this Armaggeddon talk? I'm telling you now that the events in Revelations will not happen in our lifetime. Jesus said he will come "like a thief in the night". Call me crazy, but the attitude people have right now is one of paranoia and expectation. Thinking that you can 'catch' the robber in his tracks. Every generation thinks that their generation is the end times. Hank Hannegraf right now is writing a book that illustrates this, that explains why he thinks "Left Behind" is incorrect. People in the first generation of Israel thought they were in end times. People during WW1 thought we were in end times. People during WW2 thought we were in end times. It's getting annoying. If anything, Jesus' return would happen in times of PEACE.

Anyway, Revelations. Sorry, that's a book I do not put faith in. It's a book so flawed that trying to interpret it as fact is laughable. Especially when people only choose to say some of it is right and some of it is wrong. There's no grey area here. It's one or the other. And nothing in that book proves to me that the end times prophecy is more than just the delusions of a man gone insane living out the rest of his life in solitude in prison.

As for this chip. If you worry about getting the chip without knowing it (such as the flu shot), ask your doctor. Tell your doctor you're not interested. As for the government controlling the implanting of these chips, that really depends on who gets elected. Someone who is for the government controlling every aspect of society (JK) or someone who isn't to the same extent (GWB).I agree with Matt for the most part. However I do put faith into Revelations as a symbolic work, the events representing things that have already happened, or what is more likely to come. I mean, does anyone here honestly believe that a dragon knocked a third of the stars out of the sky with its tail? I interperet that as being symbolic of Lucifer leading the fallen angels and being cast out of heaven.

As for the chip itself, I'm not too crazy about it, but it's more because, like others have said, it would be easy for others to tamper with and yet you cannot access it yourself.

[mikestorm]

I'm not saying the "mark of the beast" stuff is hogwash, but I think these religious extremists are trying to apply it inappropriately to this technology. They make the mistake many others do, which is to literally translate the bible.

I believe "taking the mark of the beast" means to willingly and knowingly submit to the devil. The "mark" stuff (I would imagine) is meant to put the easily impressionable typical 100 A.D. reader's mind at ease. By that I mean the "bad" people will easily be differentiated from the "good" people, so God doesn't inadvertantly commit some sort of damnation SNAFU when armageddon comes.

God would never permit people being "tricked" into accepting the devil through subterfuge or duplicity, or commiting some innocuous action without realizing its implications. No religion would advocate that. That's like saying, "wear plaid on the third Thursday of the month and you'll be condemned!" and a morally straight and/or religious individual's lifetime of devoutness and godfearing are eradicated in an instant due to a wardrobe malfunction.

This privacy concern is the ONLY aspect of this technology that makes it controversial. However, because controversey existed, somebody decided to capitalize and compare this to the book of Armageddon, thus colluding the issue further.

[Killtacular]

I agree with Matt for the most part. However I do put faith into Revelations as a symbolic work, the events representing things that have already happened, or what is more likely to come. I mean, does anyone here honestly believe that a dragon knocked a third of the stars out of the sky with its tail? I interperet that as being symbolic of Lucifer leading the fallen angels and being cast out of heaven.
But there is stuff in there beyond the symbolism, such as only 144,000 people being allowed into the new kingdom, that is just absurd. If the Bible is "God's Word", then it should be 100% accurate, and Revelations is not. I'd rather see Revelations removed and replaced with some of the books the church kept out/hid.

[Classic Speedy]

Well I agree it's difficult to interpret Revelation completely correctly. Going with the Social Security number example above, some people back then might've thought that assigning people a number is just like government surveillance, and there was little room for refusal. Then there's the issue of credit cards. In some interpretations, the credit card is already the mark, because if you interpret a credit card as an extension of your hand, where the mark will be placed, then it's here already.

But look at the barcode. If you decode it, you'll see that the numbers "666" appear. So are we all damned because we purchase items from the supermarket weekly? Some would argue that is supporting The Beast. I'm only concerned because this chip is REALLY close to what the verse says, i.e. that people will receive a mark on their hand (arm) or forehead. It's the closest to what John was prophecizing, if that makes any sense. :) True, it's not required yet, but it may be a step towards other chips. I'm not saying "The end is nigh!" (I was last night, but that was more from the initial reaction than anything, and I admit my "then the apocalypse begins" comment was a bit over the top), but I AM saying to be watchful. And there's no crime against that.

These are difficult questions to answer. It's a shame John didn't just come out with it and say, "OK, here's what you need to avoid". But then the end would NEVER come, because people would just never create what you were told to avoid. :p

[Killtacular]

I'm only concerned because this chip is REALLY close to what the verse says, i.e. that people will receive a mark on their hand (arm) or forehead.
Wouldn't a mark be, I dunno, VISIBLE? Like a symbol? A tattoo? Also I don't think God cares about, or would rely on, technology to suit his needs. The 'mark' CAN'T POSSIBLY be man-made.

[Kuja's Light]

I'd have to agree with you on that one Matt. It will probbaly be more like a burning mark of sorts or something, if this were to come to pass.

[Classic Speedy]

Wouldn't a mark be, I dunno, VISIBLE? Not necessarily. The verse doesn't specify, though.

[The Old Maid]

*snk, hunh? Whaddat?*

You all won't be happy until you've made me write a book report for my whole spring and summer, will you.


Originally posted by Matt Wilson

Anyway, Revelations. Sorry, that's a book I do not put faith in. It's a book so flawed that trying to interpret it as fact is laughable. Especially when people only choose to say some of it is right and some of it is wrong. There's no grey area here. It's one or the other. And nothing in that book proves to me that the end times prophecy is more than just the delusions of a man gone insane living out the rest of his life in solitude in prison.Actually, preterists like David B. Currie (book, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1928832725/qid/=1097776843/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8__xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-9183768-7784831?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) ; there are also Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican, Orthodox, and Methodist rebuttals) argue that the Revelation of the Apocalypse isn't flawed. Our understanding is deficient. Currie argues that the book was written ... let's see ... not in "code" as in "Bible code" but "code" as in, it wouldn't get the reader killed if a Roman conqueror got his hands on it. ("Aww, the slaves are telling stories of Brer Rabbit again. Carry on, pathetic beings.")

Currie argues that :

1) John of Patmos was in and out of prison most of his life, and that in addition to his better-known exile of the year 96, John was sentenced to Patmos AGAIN during Nero's lifetime, and by Nero ;

2) John wrote Revelation to tell Christians what to expect (and avoid) ; and he wrote it in the year 68 (at latest ; Nero died in 68, plus John's "creole" Greek improved with age ; the Hebraic elements in his Greek dates it as pre-year 70) ; and

3) John wrote in a style familiar to centuries of oppressed Jews but unfamiliar to the conquerors (i.e. Assyrians, Medo-Persians, Romans). We lost those cultural references and that method of storytelling when the Jewish center of Christianity was overrun in the year 70. So without a "dictionary" the references seem fabulous instead of accurate.

For example, in Jewish cultural "code phrases" three was the number of God, four the number of the earth, seven the number of completion/perfection (because God created a perfect earth). Six was the number of man (because man was created a little lower than God). Thus three sixes was a code for "the most powerful man on earth" or "the man who thought he was God" i.e. Nero. In reality Nero did set up images of himself in the town square. Anyone who didn't pray to that image before shopping would be denied sale. If the merchant saw you failing to get into the-line-to-worship Nero but sold you a piece of fruit anyway, the soldiers could arrest you both. Or worse. (Really happened.) By calling Nero a number instead of a name, John could criticize him and prophesy his death, and John wouldn't be killed for saying it.

Preterists argue that, if you understand the references, Revelation makes as much sense as Eusebius or Epiphanus or the historian Josephus' account of the fall of Judaea ; indeed, they repeat each other. In a talented preterist's hands, Revelation sounds like a history class. ("144,000 Jews became Christians before the Temple fell?" Happened. "Blood flowed to the horses' bridle?" Happened. "A third of the trees perished?" Happened. "Men prayed for death and it did not come?" Happened. Currie calculates it took five months for the Romans to crucify all their prisoners ... because they ran out of trees to cut down ... so they crucified people on short crosses the height of a horse's bridle, instead of the "telephone pole" height, to get more crosses out of the same amount of wood ... and the prisoners got to watch and wait their turn for five months, praying they'd die of thirst or hunger or disease before it was their turn ... and so on and so on.)
Jesus said he will come "like a thief in the night." Call me crazy, but the attitude people have right now is one of paranoia and expectation. Thinking you can 'catch' the robber in his tracks." Now there you're right. All Jesus told us is that it would be a surprise.

Anyhow, Currie, Barbara Rossing, Kim Riddlebarger, and Carl Olson would argue that "the mark" on our forehead refers to what we think, and "the hand" refers to what we do. (In the same way, they argue "what kind of physical chain or pit -- with a lid on it -- would hold a noncorporeal malevolent spirit? Could it be a metaphor?") However that doesn't justify self-mutilation. I don't trust any human to "brand" me. I ain't no steer and this ain't the Wild West. (Anyway, branding never stopped cattle rustling. Bad guys always find a way.)

But I would like to ask, which of you cringe at the thought of being "branded" with your medical records -- but you got a car with Onstar, or a cellphone or an iPod because "it's so convenient"? How do you think those signals find you in the first place? By keeping track of you, genius! :rolleyes:

[Roman Legion]

But I would like to ask, which of you cringe at the thought of being "branded" with your medical records -- but you got a car with Onstar, or a cellphone or an iPod because "it's so convenient"? How do you think those signals find you in the first place? By keeping track of you, genius! :rolleyes:

Not quite how those signals work, actually (and the iPod doesn't belong on that list). The signals don't find you by tracking you. The device with you intercepts them passively. What allows you to be tracked by Onstar or cellular phone is the signal broadcast from those devices.

Cellular phones can be turned off and Onstar stays in the car, but the VeriChip represents a unique identifier that can neither be turned off nor (easily) removed. Once you have the chip, you have no control over how it is used. That strikes me as an important distinction.

Excellent post, btw.

--Romey

[True Noir]

Technology is improving so quickly and in the blink of an eye. The chip thing is pretty interesting. I wonder what's next...