What I read and why I prefer the TAS DCU

[TerryMcGuiness]

Since this is a long post and the thread this is a part of was running long I decided to make a new topic. Also, the DCU as a whole is talked about here so I thought it appropriate for the JL board.

In answer to a question posed at me:

Currently I read the mainline Superman title off and on because I enjoy Eds art and Jeph *can* be very good though still the comics are mired in alot of crap.

Batman books I basically read in the store. But its all very dry to me. and the art is just ugly. That whole grey and red thing in detective. uuuugh.

Ultimate Spider-Man. This is and probably will be the *only* Ultimate title that actually gives a damn about the character outside of the narrow parameters of "make it hip!" Anybody seen the sketches for Cap and Hulk? *shutter*

All the Adventures books even though the stories are lackluster now. I really like Tim Levins and Aluir Amanico has grown on me. Craig Russo I enjoy.

Anything by Alex Ross except Earth X. Alex is another guy who like Bruce Timm I feel actually gets it.

Going to drop JLA since Waid is gone. Brian Hitches art got progressively uglier on that title as time went on the new artist looks even more so.

The Jack Kirby Collector (The once and future King and thats word up.)

Collections and tpbs of older comics, some manga. I'm very big into Japanese live action superheroes or tokusatsu. Something that sentai is an aspect of. Sentai being the shows that get hacked by Saban into Power Rangers. Also includes Kamen Rider, Ultraman, metal heroes etc.

Super robot anime in the tradition of Mazinger Z. My current fav series are G Gundam and Brave King GaoGaiGar.

Okay those last things arent what I read but they are superheroes, just another countries way of doing them.

Now. Why do I prefer TAS?:

Bruce Timm and co. know how to properly balance the long lost grandeur, romance, and escapism of superheroes while putting realism where its necessary instead of yanking them out of the sky and smothering them in it they way the I feel the mainline comics often do.

and I say this about TAS entire take on the DC Universe. From Batman, to Superman (especially Superman) to the upcoming JLA. (hell the fact that in this show there was never a JLI or Vibe or Gypsy or Booster Gold or Maxwell Lord as team members alone puts it waaaay up.)

Basically, TAS shows that superheroes dont have to be wedged into edgy sci-fi or Law and Order crime drama to do intelligent stories or speak to the human condition. The romance, grandeur and escapism of superheroes **isn't** some inherently silly or subliterate thing that we should all be greatful to people copying Frank Miller and Alan Moore for freeing us from.

I agree very much with Bruce Timms assesment that while those works great as exceptions to the rule, when they *became* the rule it started the downward spiral of the mythology/genre. Theres alot of really needlessly dour superhero comics and has been for years.

TAS provided and still provides much needed relief from that IMO.

I also love the art. Simple, straight foward yet highly expressive and extremely powerful. These DC icons are weighed down in shadow and cross-hatching and Muscle Fitness anatomy. Also, the art has personality. True to the very art of cartooning itself, the character look like their personalities.

For me, what the TAS people have done with the DC icons is 100% a better relaunch and evolution of the characters than anything in the comics. Instead of kicking the mythology to the curb the embraced it. Classicness and timelessness over trendy and hip. Yet, gaining popularity and hipness anyway. You dont have to kill Robins and cripple Batgirl and replace her with a ninja or have some quasi-mystic Joe Quesada character running around to tell a good or deep Batman story.


Jor-El and Lara didnt have to be genetic pricks or Krypton a sterile hell. Superman didnt have to be either Clark or Kal-El. In TAS he's both. In my opinion he's the most balanced Superman I've ever seen anywhere. He's not casually omnipotent or a Peter Parker type in a cape.

and as far as change and progression goes. Change for the sake of change or just changing it because it was here before you were born thus evil, is lame. TAS has the neutral zones between the shows so that you could stories about Batman in his prime forever and ever and you would still have Batman Beyond with which to say that he *did* get old, some of the others did move on etc.


To borrow one of Dick Graysons (the poster not the character) phrases:

TAS is everything thats good about the DC icons. The comics are everything thats so often wrong with them these days and for so many years.

For me, TAS is the real deal. The comics *should* be the real deal but trends being what they have for the past 15 years or so, for my money, the real Batman, Superman, and now Justice League live in TAS.

[Maxie Zeus]

I have a hard time with comics in general, so being so unfamiliar with them I can't say anything about TMcG's complaints with them.

But I heartedly and wholly endorse what he says about Timm and the various TAS series. He and his collaborators know that in animated cartoons the art (while important) is mostly an adjunct to story and character, and have wisely focused on that fact. And they do a stellar job of story-telling.

[kid_flash]

I agree with you whenever you say that TAS does a great job of boiling a character down to his/her essence, but TAS does have its share of crap hanging from it ("Critters" anyone?). But I will never be able to say that I enjoy TAS more than comics. Although I watched TAS before reading comics, I became a comic book fan before I became a TAS fan. As I've said before though, I do adore TAS and I think everyone who works on it is doing an amazing job. But comics are the real deal. Without comics, we wouldn't have TAS. Without TAS, we'd still have the comics (which is a whole other debate in itself).

[TerryMcGuiness]

Damn the typo demons. Thats supposed to read "*arent* weighed down in shadow and cross-hatching.

[Trent Lane]

I'll agree, Timm's stuff is what drew me in. The first comic book I picked up was Mad Love and issue 28(?) of Batman Adventures, both sporting Harley on the cover. The way these guys have their own universe is awesome. I only pick up a few mainstream titles, but I've got almost all the animated books, between Batman, Superman, Batman Beyond, Adventures in the DCUniverse, and now Justice League. It's all been so well done. You wonder why the mainstream guys "borrowed" the grey and black/ black bat look in their books... Timm influence?...

[Tim Drake]

I'm definitely more a fan of TAS. I think primarily because in the comics Superman died, came back to life and had four look a likes. My problems with the comics is how they throw these crazy stories out just to sell comics. There has been some great comics but there has been a lot of really stupid stuff that was made in the comics just to sell books. I think overall TAS had more consistent story lines. As oppossed to some of the things that happen in the comics. The biggest being that every major super hero has died at least once and somehow come back to life.

[Beyond Batman]

"Without TAS, we'd still have the comics (which is a whole other debate in itself)." -Kid_Flash

This is a very good point. The mainstream comics serve as a backbone for all of TAS work. Another thing, Warner Brothers won't edit fight scenes, character deaths, delay showings, etc. (e.g Batman Beyond: ROTJ) in the mainstream comics. A reassuring feeling, that we're getting the real deal, with no executives breathing down the backs of artists and creative writing.

TAS is great work in many aspects. I don't doubt that. But it's almost as if Batman is being handed to you on a silver platter. You see none of the bad. All you see is the good.

TAS Batman is simplistic, easy for a child to comprehend, also entertaining to a fan-based audience. But that's all it is. You don't see Batman dealing with the death of Jason, a crippled Barbara, a shot down Jim Gordon, a homicidal Joker, a back-breaking Bane, even a ninja-style Batgirl (which TerryMcGuiness seems to dispise so much). Even then, it'd be so heavily edited, it'd easily be dismissable, where you wouldn't truely see the impact it has on Batman. I guess it's true, that quite possibly "ignorance is bliss," but I stand proudly beside Batman in the mainstream comics over TAS work.

It's kinda like being a dedicated sports fan. Would you disregard your favorite team just because they had a bad season? Jumping onto the band-wagon of the next championship team?

With the mainstream comics, you get raw, awesome, and entertaining creative work. Sometimes you get good work, and sometimes you get bad work. But that's how this game works. If you look at TAS comics, look how downhill it's been lately (except for Justice League Adventures, I still have to read it). Overall, the mainstream has kept a hold of it's fan base by producing great work, proving that the mainstream comics is the backbone of TAS work. Not the other way around.

As fun and entertaining as TAS comics can be, seeing Batman in a more simple perspective, there's only so much you can do with what your given. But with the mainstream comics, there's a whole universe of creative flexability. That is why I'm standing up for the mainstream comics.

But like I've said before, you won't learn all of Batman's past in the mainstream overnight. With the research you do, you won't be dissappointed, and in the end you'll know more about Batman then you'd ever think. I encourage every Batman fan to do this because you can make your own perspective of Batman, not just limit yourself to what Timm and Co. feed you.

[TerryMcGuiness]

Well see thats just it. I dont need Tarintino violence or stubble and angst for it to impact me.

I think you're being much to quick to dismiss TAS as "simplistic" which to you guys seems to mean they dont show enough guts, and not enough people die.

TAS Joker is plenty homicidal, but theres *alot* to be said for subtlety, and *not* going the gratuitous or "extreme" route.

[James Harvey]

If this thread turns into a flame war, which is quickly happening, then I will have to close it and send warnings to all involved. If you have problems with this post, then email me, don't post about it. I've seen this before and I know where it's heading. I'm just dropping in here for a friendly reminder. Everyone has differet opinions and no one shouldn't be blasted or insulted becuase of this. I post this becuase I'm worried this thread is turning into a flame war so I'm asking everyone to take a breathe, count to five and just chill before replying again.

[kid_flash]

:Takes a breath and counts to five:

Okay, the comics aren't pure blood and guts, nor do I really want them to be. What comics offer are a more realistic presentation of an idea that is very unrealistic (guy dressing up as a bat and getting away with it). They let you more into the character's head and present his motives in a much more realistic way.

One of the things that is either lame or intriguing (I can't decide which) about BTAS is that we don't really know Batman's origin. We know his parents have died, and "Dreams in Darkness" lead us to believe it's from a gun. And we get the idea from the ninka episodes that Bruce traveled the world and learned a great deal. But as far as I'm concerned, that really doesn't show what Batman is all about. This guy is the one who saw his parents shot down in an alleyway, and goes on a crusade trying to make sure no one else has to experience that. While the comics sort of forget that from time to time, I don't get the same vibes from him in animation as I do comics.

But as for realism, you can really see in the comics why Batman still does what he does. With animation, his parents were killed and that's about it. I can't see that driving a guy for that long. Sure, Jim Gordon was shot once (but he healed real quick-like) and Harvey Dent became Two-Face, but that's about it. In the comics, Batman is constantly tourtured, and you can really see why the guy keeps going.

Another thing that puts comics over animation is actually the multi-part stories. I know few people here like them, but I really enjoy them. It makes more sense that a battle with one of his enemies would take awhile, rather than one episode. It allows for more character development time.

Take BRUCE WAYNE: FUGITIVE for instance. (SPOILERS FROM PREVIEWS BELOW!)
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This story starts out with a murder. From everything I've seen, Bruce Wayne actually gets taken to jail. And then he breaks out, becoming a fugitive. That's a big story. To contain that over a few months in one comic would take away from how awesome the story is. There's a lot of things you can do with characters in there, which is why I ALSO like the idea of it being a crossover. I mean, Bruce Wayne GOES TO JAIL! I would hate not knowing how that affects Nightwing or Robin or Oracle (and guest shots in Batman's comic doesn't do it justice, their own books do a better job of diving into their heads). These are the kind of things I wonder about. With animation, something awful might happen to Batman but for all we see Robin doesn't even know about it.

One last thing I gotta comment on for this post: Tim Drake. In animation, he's a Jason Todd clone. His character and what happens to him in ROTJ are all so much like Jason. And man, I really hated Jason. In the comics, Tim Drake is a very cool, three-dimensional character who I can VERY easily relate to. Also, that sibling relationship between he and Nightwing is rarely showed in TAS (yeah, it's Batman's show, but if you can't let Nightwing and Robin have their own shows, there should be a little more spotlight on them so I'd have a little more appreciation for Tim).

Sorry that post got so long. Whew.

[kid_flash]

One thing I didn't mention. Animation is better than comics in one major way: Crisis. Great big ol' story, maybe, but I don't like the idea of DC hitting the restart button when it gets tired. Although Post-Crisis is a huge improvement over Pre-Crisis.

[TerryMcGuiness]

Well there again, another reasons I prefer TAS. Barbra Gordon gets to be Batgirl. None of the Robins are dead.

TAS has done plenty of intelligent, dramatic and thought provoking fare and (especially after ROTJ *even in the edited version*) have potrayed the Joker as a psychotic.

In TAS they prove you can tell really good Batman stories without breaking the toy. You don't have to kill Robin, cripple Batgirl and replace her with a ninja, or have earthquakes in Gotham for a Batman story to be deep. A Batman comic doesn't have to read like NYPD Blue to be dramatic or do a good crime story. You dont have to kill Superman or have him seeing a shrink for us to care about him.

In TAS they embrace the premise and alot of the characters history without trying to turn it into edgy sci-fi or hyper-violent crime drama and then apologizing for the capes and powers.

TAS doesn't feel the need to apogize for the fact that its working in the superhero genre and proves that letting it *be* the superhero genre isn't some inherently bad and silly thing that we must always worship at the alter of Frank Miller and Alan Moore to insure never comes back.

I was at the target age and at ground zero for the relaunch of DC in 1986. To me, Dini and Timm did (and Bruce Timm continues to do) a much *much* better job.

They didn't trade in escapism, romance and aspirational nobility for angst and stubble under the pretense of "realism". The presented the fantasy in a very intelligent way that still had fun with it.

If the comics could at least get it half as right, then I might have a reason to return to them. Until the though, I will continue to think of TAS as the real Post-Crisis DCU.
:)

[kid_flash]

I don't mean to insult, but what is it with you and worshipping Frank Miller and Alan Moore? I have yet to meet anyone like that, and I've met a lotta people.

[TerryMcGuiness]

I'm not trying to be mean. However, I've met alot of fans on various boards who in a nutshell, act like good comics didn't exist until Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, and John Byrnes Man of Steel.

Also, the grim n' gritty trend is something that even to this day has a stranglehold on mainstream comics. This trend was basically born out of everyone taking Miller and Moores experiemnts as the gospel of what quality comics superhero comics should be. Basically hyper-violence and nihilism are automatically high-art and spirited stuff like Jack Kirbys work is "simplistic" or childish. :rolleyes:

and when I say that I dont mean that I prefer my Batman Adam West. But I do believe that you *can* go *too* dark with Batman. Too much darkness it equally as silly as too much light. When something over the top triumphant everybody wants to ***** and whine, but when something over the top dark ooooh then its art. As if to imply that only darkness is "real" or "intelligent". :rolleyes:

But when put in perspective, to a certain extent DKR Batman and 60's TV show Batman are equally as silly, but just sitting on opposite ends of the spectrum.

TAS provides a balance. Its intelligent and dramatic without being so pompus as to forget or dismiss the fun.

and again, it actually tells the stories as *superhero* stories and proves that that isn't a bad subliterate thing.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by TerryMcGuiness
I'm not trying to be mean. However, I've met alot of fans on various boards who in a nutshell, act like good comics didn't exist until Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, and John Byrnes Man of Steel.



So these type of people dismiss the older comics that you prefer, and your response it to thus dismiss their preferred comics? Doesn't make much sense to me.

No offense, but a lot of your arguments here seem to be "Its not my interpretation of Batman, so its crap," and that comes across as rather silly.

Can Batman be taken too lightly? Absolutely. Can he be taken too dark? Absolutely. But to just dismiss the great writing out there because it might be on the dark side is a bit foolish, don't ya think?

If you don't like a darker version of the character, that's fine. But to put that interpretation down as "crap" repeatedly just because it doesn't fit with your interpretation is a bit elitist. Personally, I can't stand the Adam West version of Batman, but I don't put it down as crap or BS. One man's garbage is another's gold.

I don't think anyone here has any problem with you liking the animated version over the mainstream version. I think the problem people have is that you come across so hostile about anything that doesn't fit your interpretation of the character.

Just relax the negativity a bit. No need to be condescending to other people's preferences. No need to dismiss all dark versions of Batman just because of what some other fan-boys have said on other boards. And certainly no need to blame Miller and Moore for everything you find bad about comics.

Ironically enough, Miller himself isn't happy with the fact that comics have taken such a dark turn. But that doesn't mean that the comics that started it are bad, or that those that are currently being produced are bad.

[Batman 80]

The reason I like the animated series so much is because they breathe life to the characters and give them personalities. The animated series also does a great job of selecting the voice talents for the characters. Michael Ironside did an excellent job of voicing Darkseid. Whenever I see Darkseid in a comic I will always hear Ironside's voice in my head. But the thing I like the most of the animated series is the character designs. I love the way they are drawn. Simple, but still good amounts of detail.

[kid_flash]

Hot Rod- I agree with you COMPLETELY on the voice casting. It's always been dead-on.

Terry- OHHHHH, I get whatcha mean. Yeah, I'm totally with you there. People are always comparing everything to DKR or WATCHMEN or what have you. "Well, it was good, but it's no DKR" is a much-head line. But aren't you sort of going against that by saying that the animated version is the only good version? And then comparing everything to TAS? How is that any different than people comparing everything to DKR or WATCHMEN or what have you?

[TerryMcGuiness]

I'm not necessarily comparing, though thats a fair point. and I dont blame Miller and Moore for everything thats bad about comics. I blame those who made their work the rule instead of the exception. I was ok with Miller when he made DKR. Its when he made Year One that things began to bother me.

I'm saying that I prefer it over the mainstream version because in my view it does a better job of making the characters timeless instead of opting to make them trendy.

I guess if I compare it, its only because TAS has so many of the qualities that mainline comics have abandoned and to some extent the kinds of things modern comics tend to spit on in favor of their much vaunted "realism".

Not that I want "my" vision to be the only one. I just get sick of anything outside of the sort of parameters of what people started ripping off Millers work as being illiterate or something. Like, a superhero story isn't inelligent unless the hero is rationlized as a psychotic or something like the Authority being dismissed. Or written off as "simplistic" I.E. crap. I'd be ok with the mainline books being like that if DC actually gave a damn about the adventures series titles. Hell, if done right they could be anti-Ultimate line. :p

I will apologize for my negativety though. In my previous MB experiences I've become used to having to defend everything from the fact all comic were not crap before 1986 to even something as basic as Supermans costume for crying out loud.

[Beyond Batman]

(With no anger intended, just trying to make a point you seem to repeat in all of your replies, something I'm surprised the monitors of this board hasn't edited.) Terry, do you get it? None of us here defending the mainstream comics are putting down TAS by refering to it as "crap, BS, dour, etc" the words you've used so easily and casually about the mainstream comics. We're respecting your opinion, but if you're going to use words like that to put down the mainstream comics, you're completely diminishing your credibility. We very much like TAS, and I'm sure we praise it just as much as you do. But we don't put it down to make our points shine.

There is more than Miller and Moore out there, and it really seems like you're the one comparing everyone to Miller and Moore. If you feel Batman in the mainstream comics is in a "deep dark rut" then that's fine. I happen to like it. And if you think about it, the way Batman is in the mainstream comics and how much he's been through, do you think he can ever go back to the way he was? The way you like him?

BTW, what's wrong with having Barb in a wheelchair, I happen to find it inspirational. Look at all that she's accomplished with such a huge disability. She's finding strength in her weakness. Maybe you should try looking at it that way.

[James Harvey]

Last Warning. This post is becoming SO close to becoming a flame post, and I have been getting some complaints about it. I may have to lock the thread if this type of posting continues. I'm sorry folks, but this thread is one step from outright bashing. I've been watching this thread very closely and it's sliding downhill...


Edit: I'm noving this to the Batman, Superman, & Beyond Board becuase is more about that than JL.