Toonheads (11/11/01): THE EARLY WORK OF HANNA & BARBERA

[Pietro]

Tonight's episode of Toonheads was entitled "The Early Works of Hanna & Barbera," which made it's debut tonight! The episode was an hour long.

Here are the titles that aired:
"To Spring" (1936/MGM)
"Puss Gets the Boot" (1940/MGM)
"Gallopin' Gals" (1940/MGM)
"Officer Pooch" (1941/MGM)
"Yankee Doodle Mouse" (1943/MGM)

Mammy's voice was dubbed in "Puss Gets the Boot." "Yankee Doodle Mouse" was edited.

-Pietro:D

[Matthew Hunter]

There was something in "Gallopin' Gals" that I'm glad *wasn't* edited, I'd never seen that gag before. I noticed the "'Yankee Doodle" cut, which is kind of dumb...doesn't the teapot get blown up around Tom's face so he looks like a sunflower? Since when was that bad? And the redubbed Mammy Two Shoes...why? It's a good voiceover, but why? This is a historical/informational show. I'm all for presenting the dubbed cartoons on regular rotation, I think that's great if it doesn't cut the dialogue, but when I'm trying to learn something (which I did) and enjoy the films as originally presented, I don't want to be duped into thinking some redub is the original. Redubbed is fine, in this case it's no worse than a computer colorized in terms of "modernizing " a cartoon, but I don't want it like that on Toon Heads. I'm sure the compilers of the show were at the mercy of Cartoon Network, but I've seen that cartoon undubbed on CN before, I KNOW they've got that one, in clean, wonderful, uncensored glory. I don't remember the original voice being offensive, in fact that was the original they used in the trivia segment. Ted Turner is gone, guys. Wake up and smell Mammy's Pine-Sol.
-Matthew

[Thad Komorowski]

Wow, tonight's episode was REALLY special...:rolleyes:

I'd rather of seen "Swing Social" instead. Last week, we got the uncut version of "A-Lad-In Bagdad", which had quite a few black characters. Please don't get mad at me for saying this, since it's unlikely the cartoon will ever air again.

Did anyone else notice that in the info before "Puss Gets the Boot", Mammy says "Jasper!" in her original voice!


-Thad

[Mibbitmaker]

I don't think so. The hour-long ones are special(but not specialS, like the Wartime and Rare Cartoons were), the half-hour the usual. I feel privileged to be able to see so many expanded THs.

I didn't realise Puss Gets the Boot was dubbed, it seemed like the real Mammy voice, but I DID notice she spelled O-U-T correctly, and I think she did it "O-W-T" in the original. Big deal, Fred Flintstone gets to misspell, but if a black character does, it's racism!(Who knows, maybe H&B meant it to be a stereotype?)

Dissapointed Yankee Doodle Mouse was the same ol' edited version. Still good to see it in wartime, though.

[J Lee]

I didn't realise Puss Gets the Boot was dubbed, it seemed like the real Mammy voice, but I DID notice she spelled O-U-T correctly, and I think she did it "O-W-T" in the original. Big deal, Fred Flintstone gets to misspell, but if a black character does, it's racism!(Who knows, maybe H&B meant it to be a stereotype?)

Hey a black character still gets to spell it wrong in a cartoon on CN -- Daffy, while talking about sittin' on eggs in "Baby Bottleneck" (gosh I hope they don't edit that one o-w-t now...)

[Nelson]

I have to be totally honest here....But I really didn't like tonight's episode that much, and I didn't think there where any surprises like Mr. Gak said there would be in the very begining of the show.Like Thad said, I would have rather seen "SWING SOCIAL" intead of "GALLOPIN GALS" in an instance, but it was good to see that cartoon uncut.

Last week's season premiere was 100 times better.....Sorry guys :(

[Joe Tully]

Well, I think GAK did what he could to get some good stuff in there. I too thought that it was the original Mammy in the info, which I find very interesting.

I would have been really impressed if we had gotten just one whole ep. with the original Mammy. It is probably really hard to get that stuff by CN though and I dunno if CN has copies of the undubbed Mammy. And the unedited version of Yankee Doodle Mouse would've been great too. But there are probably a lot of limits to the material GAK can choose from.

This was a good episode but I think it might have been a bit of a disappointment after last week's which probably got our hopes up a little too high. I was very pleased about the info though, it was very educational. :)

[Nelson]

CN does own and have the original prints featuring Mammy's real voice but given the fact that how much society is Politcally Correct nowadays, it tough to see the original T&J/Mammy cartoons they way they should be seen, and not the re-dubbed Mammy voice.

[kiddiesunshine]

but her voice isn't even stereotypical! i know black women who sound like her--some worse.

[Joe Tully]

That's what is kind of funny about it--you can watch modern cartoons and shows where the black women are speaking in a very sterotypical manner ("Whad up girlfriend!" and so on ;) ) and there is no problem with it. MTV is just covered with stereotypes. You have to admit that it is kind of ironic that it is okay for anything new yet taboo for the classic stuff. The only difference, and it's a mild one, is that Mammy represents old sterotypes which are now seen as "wrong" (black woman acting as a maid is, I think the biggest problem, with her misspellings and speech second) while the new sterotypes are acceptable even if they do not portray black women in a favorable light.

I would pay good money to see a Toonheads focusing entirely on the original Mammy. Why oh why didn't I tape those as a kid when they were on my local station. :(

[J Lee]

Mammy started out as a maid, but by the end of her run ("Saturday Evening Puss," "Push Button Kitty" and others) she apparently had moved up to be the owner of the house and of Tom (or it's a pretty small house to have a live-in maid with her own jewelery collection, as in "Saturday Evening Puss"). However, there obviously were problems with the image even back in 1952, or Hanna-Barbera wouldn't have switched to the suburban white couple as Tom's owner during the final five years of the series.

[Sogturtle]

I missed the first few minutes. Buuuut from what I saw and read here, this would be slotted in the 'nice try' category... Maybe ifffff Mr. GAK had read our postings and hopes a little closer about it this last week...

(And I was the one suspicious of seeing "Gallopin' Gals" on it.) "War Dogs" would have ALMOST made up for some of the timidity in selecting toons.

[Crazy Tom]

The early works of HB was the same as any ol' Toonheads show: dull, predictable, and gloomy. Although there was some interesting information to take from this one, I feel this could have been done so much better. Once again, Yankee Doodle Mouse is your dreaded double-standard example (see Safety Second), and Puss Gets The Boot got the re-dub. Too bad I missed To Spring...it's one of my all-time favorites.

They found a way to goof up the wartime special, now this one follows in its tracks.

[chuckamuck43]

Crazy Tom, I agree with you 100%.
The very premise of ToonHeads prohibits censoring the cartoons they show. I'm tired of it. I rarely watch it anymore and after reading this thread, I see I haven't missed a thing.

As for you, Mr.GAK - I appreciate your efforts and I know you're hamstrung by the P.C. rules set down by your bosses at CN.

If they TRULY want to offer something on ToonHeads that is rare, unique and "unseen in 50 years" - start by showing a few UNCUT cartoons!

By the way, I told you guys they were gonna show that d#&ned Officer Pooch!

[Crazy Tom]

Originally posted by chuckamuck43
If they TRULY want to offer something on ToonHeads that is rare, unique and "unseen in 50 years" - start by showing a few UNCUT cartoons!

There is no harm in showing cartoons uncut! Think of it as Frank Sinatra...All Or Nothing At All! The whole cartoon or give it to another network who can take full advantage of it without goofing it up!

Maybe someone should tell Mr. GAK that the bosses at CN do not understand that PC is NOT the English language!

[alstin]

What toons came out in the Rare Cartoons episode of THs??? I missed it when it came out and never found out its content. Also, how was the Wartime Special screwed up??? Do you mean the edit in "Leon Schlesinger Presents Bugs Bunny"???

[laugh4me]

You know, when they mentioned at the beginning of the show that Hanna started with Harman-Ising and that Barbera worked at Van Beuren, for a moment I was hoping we'd get a WB Bosko and/or a Toonerville Trolley... ;)

Like most who have chimed in so far, I was hoping for more from this show - there wasn't anything new for me.
...but on the other hand, I think it's only fair that I admit that the rest of our family enjoyed it alot. None of them had seen "To Spring", "Galloping Gals" or "Officer Pooch" and they all seemed to enjoy seeing them for the first time. (Between cartoons they watch to see if the ol' man gets all of the trivia questions right...) ;)
The point is that I think we as a group here had higher expectations than the general public (not a surprise). But in my one little unscientific sample, the average viewer seemed to enjoy the show.

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by laugh4me
You know, when they mentioned at the beginning of the show that Hanna started with Harman-Ising and that Barbera worked at Van Beuren, for a moment I was hoping we'd get a WB Bosko and/or a Toonerville Trolley... ;)

Like most who have chimed in so far, I was hoping for more from this show - there wasn't anything new for me.
...but on the other hand, I think it's only fair that I admit that the rest of our family enjoyed it alot. None of them had seen "To Spring", "Galloping Gals" or "Officer Pooch" and they all seemed to enjoy seeing them for the first time. (Between cartoons they watch to see if the ol' man gets all of the trivia questions right...) ;)
The point is that I think we as a group here had higher expectations than the general public (not a surprise). But in my one little unscientific sample, the average viewer seemed to enjoy the show.

Since I missed the beginning of the show (a birthday party going on) what did the narration say about "To Spring"???

[Thad Komorowski]

Nothing much, but they did say it was the first Hanna directed cartoon. They also showed clips from a Captain and the Kids cartoon.


-Thad

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Thad Komorowski
Nothing much, but they did say it was the first Hanna directed cartoon. They also showed clips from a Captain and the Kids cartoon.


-Thad

Thanks Thad... I didn't really think they would mention the fact that Bill Hanna co-directed it with Paul Fennell (rather than soloed it).

[laugh4me]

Originally posted by Sogturtle
Thanks Thad... I didn't really think they would mention the fact that Bill Hanna co-directed it with Paul Fennell (rather than soloed it).
Who is Paul Fennell, and what else did he ever do cartoon-wise? :confused:
And is there a reason why people forget to give him co-director credit for "To Spring" ?

[J Lee]

Paul Fennell was an early Warner Bros. and MGM animator under Harman & Ising, who later became (in)famous by signing on with Larry Harmon Productions to do a series of Bozo the Clown made-for-TV cartoons, along with the worst of the King Features TV Popeyes in 1961.

One of Fennell's assistants, newly arrived at WB in 1933, was Chuck Jones, who later did a thing or two of his own as an animator and director.

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by J Lee
Paul Fennell was an early Warner Bros. and MGM animator under Harman & Ising, who later became (in)famous by signing on with Larry Harmon Productions to do a series of Bozo the Clown made-for-TV cartoons, along with the worst of the King Features TV Popeyes in 1961.

One of Fennell's assistants, newly arrived at WB in 1933, was Chuck Jones, who later did a thing or two of his own as an animator and director.


Actually Paul was something of a gadabout during the Golden Age of Animation. He supposedly was a Disney animator in 1932-33 ("Santa's Workshop" is cited for him). It appears he went straight from Disney to Schlesinger, but it is very vague. But he had a couple of other KNOWN directing credits that I can attest to... Fennell jumped coasts and was the director (okay "head animator") on Fleischer's 1934 release "This Little Piggie Went To Market", this was his ONLY credit at Fleischer (other cartoons might have been partly if not totally his work). With this evidence of directing at Fleischer we can wonder about his role at the early Schlesinger and Harman-Ising/MGM. Like ALL of the Harman-Ising animators Fennell's role is VERRRRY murky. We can SUSPECT that H & I MAY have had him fulfilling part of Friz Freleng's old job, namely helping draw the actual animation layouts. Bill Hanna stated that Hugh had had him timing or helping time his own cartoons prior to "To Spring" (which leads to my hunch about Fennell). It's unclear at WHAT point he left H & I, but he later indicated that he had been a director for Harman-Ising/MGM!!! When Ub Iwerks chucked it all and waltzed back to Walt, guess who stepped into his shoes as director at the former-Ub studio??? You got it, Paul Fennell !!!

Both Bill Hanna and Fennell himself attested that they co-directed "To Spring". With Paul's non-fame it's not surprising that no one remembers to credit him with anything good. It should be also noted that Lee Blair functioned as "a color director" on the toon (Blair at the time viewed it as quite an accomplishment).

Besides his exceedingly unworthy Bozo cartoons (and questionable Popeyes), Paul had some more somewhat noteworthy TV work. Yeah, he directed some Mr. Magoo toons for television in the early Sixties (better than the Bozos or Popeyes). Buuuuuut he worked on the animated "Star Trek" (NOT as director) and also on the Filmation "Tom and Jerry Comedy Show". Usually his job would be working on storyboards and such.

[Pietro]

Well, I was expecting more. I was getting my hopes up for "Swing Social," "War Dogs," an uncut "Yankee Doodle Mouse," and "Puss Gets the Boot" with an undubbed Mammy. Next week's sounds a bit promising, though, "Moon Toons." Maybe they'll show Willie Whopper in Stratos-Fear." But maybe my hopes are TOO high!:rolleyes:

-Pietro:D

[J Lee]

Next week's sounds a bit promising, though, "Moon Toons." Maybe they'll show Willie Whopper in Stratos-Fear." But maybe my hopes are TOO high!

My bets are on:

The Milky Way
Haredevil Hare
The Cat That Hated People.

[Joe Tully]

Everyone remember that, since Moon Toons is 30 min, we will see that followed by the Controversy of '46 next week.

[laugh4me]

Originally posted by Joe Tully
Everyone remember that, since Moon Toons is 30 min, we will see that followed by the Controversy of '46 next week.
When I checked my listings for next week (on zap2it) it shows no ToonHeads - it has "Justice League" on instead...

[Joe Tully]

I guess we have to wait another week then to see the both of them. Sorry for the mistake, I got the info from GAK's post. I guess this is news to him too.

[Bobby B]

Originally posted by alstin
. Also, how was the Wartime Special screwed up??? Do you mean the edit in "Leon Schlesinger Presents Bugs Bunny"???


They promised that all cartoons would be uncut, but "Blitz Wolf" was the edited version. Also the print quality of "Scrap Happy Daffy" wasn't very good.

[Crazy Tom]

Originally posted by Bobby B
They promised that all cartoons would be uncut, but "Blitz Wolf" was the edited version. Also the print quality of "Scrap Happy Daffy" wasn't very good.

If I may add, all 4 cartoons shown were with "German" war references, none with Japanese references. As you referred to, Blitz Wolf wiped out the sign "No Japs Allowed", which shows you the imbalance between the production of the cartoons.

This better set up the scene for another wartime Toonheads special, called The Wartime Cartoons 2: the Japanese side. This is where you can get to films such as Bugs Bunny Nips The Nips and others, hopefully.

[J Lee]

AS I've said before, the problem with the WWII Japanese cartoons compared to the ones going after Germany and Italy is that the former just uses generic, ugly charactures of Japanese soldiers, istead of targeting Hirohito and Tojo, while the latter are directly pointed at Hitler, Mussolini and Goering, which makes them slightly more palitable to the Cartoon Network censors.

CN might allow "The Ducktators," with its lone Japanese characture, to air if they ever did a "Wartime Cartoons II" episode, but even something like "Seein Red, White & Blue" would be tough to get in because of the "orphans" scene, even though Jim Tyer does get in a shot at Emporer Hirohito at the end of the cartoon.

[alstin]

"Leon Schelisger Presents Bugs Bunny" was edited of the blackface, wasn't it???:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Jack]

Originally posted by alstin
"Leon Schelisger Presents Bugs Bunny" was edited of the blackface, wasn't it???:confused: :confused: :confused:
That wasn't in the WWII cartoons special, it was in the lost cartoons special. It was edited, though, very badly too...


Jack:D