Justice League Unlimited: Preliminary Series Judgment

[Style]

Back when "Initiation" first premiered, some people were doubtful about the new series. I, at the time, advised everyone to try to withhold judgement until everyone had seen at least 5 episodes (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?p=1367781). This system, would allow the show to be judged on it's overall merits, and not in it's individual highs and lows. Well, as of this Saturday 5 episodes of JLU have now aired, and it is time to fairly judge the merits of JLU, espcially as it compares to it's predacessor.

By now, we've seen JLU in a variety of moods: a fun but light action affair, a melodramatic comic adaption, two light hearted outings, and a commentary about war. In all that time, I've noted some things. The primary thing is this: That "Initiation" set the premise for the new show, and subsequent episodes seem to have tried their best to ignore it. At most, the idea that all Superheros on earth are affiliated under the JLU will allow for a wide variety of heroic teamups, but the flip side is that the possibilities of this seem to have been ignored. In all five episodes presented, a small group of our heros, (never more than 4,) has to deal with a situation, and in all five episodes they lose control of the situation. In how many episodes do they call for back up from the league? Precisely once, (In "This Little Piggy," which goes to prove Dini's superior writing ability.) Was there some reason that Leaguers are reluctant to call for backup? Are they discouraged from it, or is it just a matter of pride? In all actuality, it is a contrivance of the writers to keep the focus on certain characters, even if it does deny the conventions of logic. The premise then just seems to be an excuse to do an "adventures in the DCAU" as others have pointed out, which causes it's prescence to be inconsistently applied.

Handling of the characters seems awkward and offputting. One thing that had me interested when I first saw the new opening is that there seemed to be a big focus on Superman, Batman and Wonderwoman, not a focus on the whole "core 6." I believe I understand why that is now, because there now seems to be three Classifications of characters. The Core three, (Superman, Batman, and Wonderwoman,) who get the most attention, the Second tier, (Green Lantern, J'onn J'onze and the Flash) who get the second most attention, and then everyone else, who only get one or two apperances apiece. The focus on the core three seems to be an effort to reassure fans that character development won't be dropped from the first two seasons won't be dropped, and we will still see our favorites. However, the core three, espicially Batman and Wonderwoman, have been very much over-saturated, and even a die-hard Bat-fan as myself is starting to get a little fatigued at his constant apperences, (and no, I'm saying this because of his singing number in this little piggy.) Their over-saturation is coming at the expense of the members of the second tier. The second tier is composed of the remaining leaguers from the original format. They get some attention to satisfy fans, but not nearly enough in my opinions. Green Lantern has gotten the most attention, but that's simply in two episodes. One, in which he was taken out almost immediatly, and the other where circumstances caused him to be out of character. I, like others, am wary of the fact that Martian Manhunter is simply out of the action, and is acting as league coordinator and counselor. And, aside from a cameo in initiation, we haven't even seen Flash at all. This isn't sitting well with me at all, because focus on the first and third tiers seem to be cheating the second tier out of screen time. Then there's the third tier, the show's gimmic, the legion of the Lesser known to downright obscure DC heros. Being the gimmic of the show, we will see members of this group in most episodes, but not all. While these characters usually get fairly good character introduction episodes, the mere fact that this a large group means we probably never be more than introduced to most of these characters. The situation seems to be set up so we have this revolving door of side kicks to the original six, whom we don't spend enough time with to care about, unless you happen to be a fan of the comics who cares about them already. So I'm not enamored with this new concept, because it seems to be just a large fan service attempt to let us see our favorite heros in the DCAU. But it seems to be hollowing out the established characters, especially the second tier.

Is there more too say? Yes, but maybe I'll add more later. For now, I'd just like to say that this new format has got me somewhat concerned about the series as a whole, and makes me miss the second season. But, it hasn't faltered badly enough to turn me off, so I will stick with it. and I have enjoyed "For the Man who has everything," and "Kid's stuff," so the series has merits. However, the other three episodes I've been kind of disappointed in.

So, what do you think of the series to date?

[Phantasm]

I DESPISE THE WW/BM 'RELATIONSHIP'!!!:mad:

[Style]

I DESPISE THE WW/BM 'RELATIONSHIP'!!!:mad:
That's fine. I respect your opinion.

I personally don't mind the relationship in ofitself, but I don't like what JLU is doing with it. In the second season, they had the GL/HG relationship to focus on which kept the WW/BM relationship on the back burner, as a mild flirtation. Now, with the GL/HG relationship out of the way, the WW/BM relationship has gotten moved up in significance and is getting way more attention and development, which I don't like. I don't think it really ever should have gone beyond mutual respect and mild flirting. But I guess the writers have other ideas...

[Knight]

I DESPISE THE WW/BM 'RELATIONSHIP'!!!:mad:Wow a original post from you Phantasm.:rolleyes:


Anyway, the series has been up and down for me so far. What I don't like has been minor. Some of the storylines I could probably have done without but I really don't have any major complaints. Certainly nothing as ridicules as the pairing of certain characters or too much airtime for others. I know certain people have there "favorites" and I am sure if Batman didn't appear as often as he has I might get a little unnerved to. But everyone just needs to sit back relax and watch the season unfold.

[Legionaire]

I'm not completely happy with things so far.

In terms of amount of time, the first 2 1/2 hours, Season 2 was better (although Initiation plus FTMWHE is somewhat comparable in enjoyment quotient to Twilight of the Gods). In terms of stories (the first 5 in each), Season 2 was far superior in my opinion.

As an anthology series, JLU seems to be working, somewhat. They're achieving what they set out to do. However, I would suggest that most of the complaints can ultimately be boiled down to the fact that people don't want an anthology series. The two main themes of most complaints seem to be either (1) too much humor (or the humor isn't), and (2) not enough depth. The former probably results from the anthology concept unleashing the creative freedom of the producers (and through them, their writers and directors). The latter is a direct result of the 1/2 hour limitation, and the fact that the anthology format almost forces them to "hop around" a bit. This hopping around robs many of us of the continuity and depth we crave.

The problem with the "legion of Tier 3 superheroes" is that so far they've done little with the idea other than to attempt to please the fans with appearances by their favorite hitherto-unanimated heroes. But they've spread it too thin (largely due to the limitations of the 1/2 hour format). If they happen to hit your favorite hero in a cameo, you're thrilled--though always wanting much more (e.g Red Tornado for me). If it's not your favorite (e.g. Crimson Avenger for me), the token appeal to "fanboys"--and girls--is obvious and a bit derivative.

I disagree somewhat that we have the big three, followed by the little three, and then the rest. I think we'll find that the surplus of WW and Bats appearances will seem, by the end of the season, to be less important than it is now. In fact I like it so far precisely because it's giving us the sense of depth and continuity that's been largely missing this season (plus the relationship has been very well done :) ). I'm hoping that subsequent appearances of heroes such as Green Arrow, Supergirl, Elongated Man, and Red Tornado (hope springs eternal) will see some of that continuity and depth spill over into the new characters.

Because of that, in retrospect, 5 episodes just isn't going to be enough to judge the JLU, given where they've taken the series. I like to think it'll be better judged after 10 than after 5 (and not just because the next 5 eps are better). Some viewers won't stick around for that, which is too bad. But I understand.

I'm a die hard, and will watch Justice League in just about any form it's presented in. I won't always like it, but I'll be here. I suffered through SuperFriends, and even stuck around for the Firestorm version.

(You might think the original was the hokiest, but at least they weren't trying very hard. The Firestorm era was an attempt to get "serious"--or as serious as you can get on Saturday morning TV. But watching Darkseid trying to make Wonder Woman his "queen" was just, well, excruciatingly painful.)

So far I liked Season 2 much more, and a large part of Season 1 as well. But despite early stumbles, I'm confident JLU will be worth my continued attention. And to be honest, if this is what it takes to keep it on the air, then fine. I guess I'd rather have 4 or 5 seasons of a B- Justice League, than only one at an A level--I like seeing the characters that much.

[Phantasm]

Wow a original post from you Phantasm.:rolleyes:

I don't see what the problem is.:confused::shrug:

[Style]

I disagree somewhat that we have the big three, followed by the little three, and then the rest. I think we'll find that the surplus of WW and Bats appearances will seem, by the end of the season, to be less important than it is now. In fact I like it so far precisely because it's giving us the sense of depth and continuity that's been largely missing this season (plus the relationship has been very well done :) ). I'm hoping that subsequent appearances of heroes such as Green Arrow, Supergirl, Elongated Man, and Red Tornado (hope springs eternal) will see some of that continuity and depth spill over into the new characters.

Yeah, maybe the separation between the big three and the little three will be marginalized the further we get into this season. But I formulated my 5 eps theory that a random 5 episodes of a series would provide a good crosssection to examine the series as a whole. I know that these aren't random eps but sequential ones, but I thought that would work almost as well. The only thing that would ruin it is if the dice were weighted to give one or another impression of the series. But I have to say, that I thought there was this Big three/little three/ everyone else separation in the first five, so I was just afraid it might continue in that vein. But this series is a little bit harder to get a bead on, so maybe the upcoming 8 episodes of season one will prove I'm way off.

[Neo PrimeStar]

I DESPISE THE WW/BM 'RELATIONSHIP'!!!:mad:
I hear you. WW's guns got her that WW2 guy and anyone who sees her she can have in an instant.
:shrug: well as long as Flash is still mine, I"m cool.

Tell ya what Phan, you hold her down I'll smack her till she cries and breaks up with Bats :D


Well I do however want to point out that in the JLA comics that, Batman does love her. I recall one issue as told by a friend that Bats loved her, but she was intersted in Aquaman.

:confused: Crazy comics...

[Fone Bone]

Too early to make a sound judgement.

[Crimson]

I was not enthusiastic about the changes made between last season and this, and so far I've been underwhelmed, even with my very low expectations. Of the 4 episodes I have seen, one was excellent ("For The Man ..."), while the others were forgettable. The series, so far, has been so-so. It's not horrible unlike, say, TEEN TITANS, a show which I loathe and consider a waste of time to even watch. JUSTICE LEAGUE is an adequate way to pass a half hour. But it's a shame that a series that was once my favorite on television has devolved into nothing more than time-filler.

The switch to the half hour format hasn't been so bad; in fact, I can't imagine these stories doubled in length. What is merely tolerable would possibly be torturous. The one great episode, "For The Man ..." would not have benefited from a longer running time; it was a taut and well paced story, that required no padding. (What else was there to see? More of Clark's fantasy world? Point made. More of Wonder Woman getting her ass kicked? No thanks.)

The enlarged cast has been less successful. Hawk & Dove are scraped-from-the-bottom mediocrities who rendered their entire episode nearly unbearable. "Initiation" was somewhat better, but Supergirl and Green Arrow offered nothing that couldn't have better been supplied by Superman/Wonder Woman and Batman. Only Captain Atom offered something unique, and that was mostly him blowing up.

Perhaps the most telling thing about my feelings for this season is that I always forget to watch it. Out of 5 episodes, only one did I remember to watch on Saturday night; 3 I caught the next day; and this most recent one I forget both times. That's pretty sad considering that nothing short of a natural disaster would have kept me from watching JUSTICE LEAGUE last season.

[Phantasm]

I hear you. WW's guns got her that WW2 guy and anyone who sees her she can have in an instant.
:shrug: well as long as Flash is still mine, I"m cool.

Tell ya what Phan, you hold her down I'll smack her till she cries and breaks up with Bats :D


Well I do however want to point out that in the JLA comics that, Batman does love her. I recall one issue as told by a friend that Bats loved her, but she was intersted in Aquaman.

:confused: Crazy comics...
hhahhaahaaa!!!:anime:

I have never read the JLA comics...but from what I've heard, in the comics it's WW and SM...which I don't mind at all!;)

[Martianman606]

I wish I could really respond to my fullest on this subject, but I can't. I have yet to see "Initiation", "For the Man Who Has Everything", and "Kids Stuff". I missed all three of those episodes.

But, I have both "Hawk and Dove" and "This Little Piggy" taped and I have to admit, I'm not too pleased. "Hawk and Dove" was OK in my eyes. I had little to offer, but the fights scenes were good and I guess I was kind of entertained to see some new, fresh faces on the JL scene, even though these new fresh faces (Hawk and Dove) did not have much to offer...at all. "This Little Piggy" did not meet my expecations at all. With no disrespect, this episode kinda just a little bit sucked. The story plot was not good at all (kinda like something my sister would right) and I was just soo sick of seeing WW. Does anyone else think besides me that WW brings on terrible villains to the show? Aries? Circe? Ugh. We need to loose WW (and maybe see a little less of Batman) if the show is ever going to gain back its pace. Leave WW and Batmans relationship alone for a while - lol it isn't going anywhere anyway so why dwell on it?

So, apparently, I'm not extremely happy w/ the show so far. Maybe, when I see the first three episodes (which I think/suspect will be better than the 2 I've seen) my opinion will change. But until then, I don't know. All I can say is that I hope JLU picks up its game a little bit.

[maxnugget]

Like GMahler said, it's definitely too early to judge the season (or, implicitly, the "new" JLU series).

I don't think the five episodes we've seen paint an accurate view of what the rest of the season is going to be like. Next weeks' episode looks to be pretty serious, and a departure from the previous five episodes. "The Return" will probably have a big impact on people's opinions of how well the expanded roster concept "works," and they seem to be starting to build up toward something bigger, story-arc wise. I think in reality these first five episodes haven't really shown us where the show is going, and it simply hasn't picked up its momentum yet.

[Style]

^ Well, that's part of the reason I said this is a preliminary Judgement, not a final one. It definatly can improve, and I wouldn't make a final decision on the merits of the show until it was actually over.

On the other hand, I wouldn't go so far as to say that these first five episodes don't "count." They definatly do show us what they are doing with the characters, and I say my concerns still have merit for what's coming. From my experience, it seems to take a show at least an entire season to work out it's bugs, so while I'm hoping the issues I raised do improve in the coming episodes, I am afraid that they may not, simply because time constraints can't allow to make improvements in the stories they've already written.

[Zyzzybalubah]

I seriously really want to like JLU, but they make it WAY too corny. If the humor was actually decent, maybe I could tolerate it every once and then. Two episodes that stand out on me disliking are the kids one and "This Little Piggy"
I did like "Initiation" and "hawk and Dove" though. Both had interesting stories and did a decent job showcasing new characters. I'm not a fan of the whole concept of Justice League expanding but I was hoping they would do a decent job. I didn't see much of the second episode played so I can't judge it too much.

My Final Take: If you want use the new characters, go ahead, just develop them well and make a reason for them being there. If not, just give us some solid episodes like there were in the original Justice League with the original members (let's see some more Flash then please. :D) Enough comic relief episodes please.

[Simpler Simon]

I think its nice that at least the current episodes are provoking *some* kind of reaction in people, whereas most of JL season 1 was just too bland to really care about. I also think the show was hyped wrong by the team and just about every website. We expected a lot of guest stars and less of the core 6, when in reality its still very much about the core 6, but with a slightly larger emphasis on guest stars.

[Wayman Tisdale]

I'm digging JLU so far, but I agree with Fone Bone that it's too early to make a real judgment. These first few episodes are more or less standalone stories but starting next week, things are going to matter. I think none of us should judge this season until it's over.I totally agree, I think from here(episode 6 and on) on in you can probably start to cast your personal judgements. It's an ideal middle point where the show should have and find it's voice and groove. I remember even in season two I wasn't forming my opinion on the season until after "Terror Beyond" and "Secret Society", which I adored and that cemented it for me.

At the risk of sounding boringly even handed I think "Stly92" has some solid points in his own right and his trepidations are very valid. When you call a show Justice League Unlimited and in the first five episodes they can't squeeze out more than four heroes a shot, that's an extremely respectable question on the concept of a series that supposedly emphasizes "strength in numbers".


My biggest bone of contention so far was in "FTMWHE" they face total dire peril and are surrounded by the Arctic Ocean in the Fortress of Solitude and NO ONE(brilliant Batman and Aquaman familiar WW) can't think to have J'onn deploy Aquaman to drag Mongul into the icy tundra, frigid sea with an attack from beneath(or all around) or what have you, taking him completely out of his element. Problem solved, yes? Ignoring this option to me made no sense! I know it's largely based on an Alan Moore story but like every other adaptation this too can be tweaked for animation purposes. Alan Moore isn't any more special or any different than a Chuck Dixon or Mark Waid idea adapted for TV.

All I read from Bruce Timm when this series first got off the ground back in 2000-01 was the qualifying of Aquaman's deletion from the main team(continues to be a big controversy) saying "Oh well, you know Aquaman needs water to be effective, there's no water on the moon(etc), so Aquaman couldn't be of any use." Not only do I find that lazy but I find it broadly misinformed on Aquaman's plethora of abilities as any comic reader knows from his own series or JLA. I very much respect Bruce Timm's take on things but I couldn't disagree more with that assertion!

Okay, let's say you're Bruce Timm and you're hell bent on having just bodies of water around for an Aquaman inclusion WELL you're in the friggin Arctic Ocean in "FTMWHE" and you have access to a man that dominates the whole thing, AND you're doing a series called Justice League UNLIMITED, HELLO! It's the least Aquaman can do to help out Superman who has had his back over the surface world several times and Batman who saved his life in "Enemy Below" part one. I feel they blew that opportunity, ESPECIALLY with the "Unlimited concept.

And this is what "Stly92" I think is trying to say.

[Wayman Tisdale]

You know, I would have loved to see Aquaman show up in a lot of episodes, but "FTMWHE" was not one of them. It was too much of a personal, intimate story to have other Leaguers show up. I realize that it would have made sense to call in other Leaguers, but it would have ruined the episode. It would have become a big "let's get 50 heroes to come kill Mongul" episode instead of the emotional episode it was supposed to be.

I do hope that we see Aquaman at least one more time before JLU ends. He really was quite badass in "The Enemy Below" and he bounced off the Leaguers very nicely. That episode was definitely one of the only ones from Season 1 that I could say was on-par with the assorted episodes from the previous Timm series.Yeah, I understand that, if you have a personal allegiance to that storyline, and you don't want to see it tinkered with but I didn't say 50 heroes I said JUST Aquaman he's the perfect fit for eradicating Mongul here in this setting. I feel it would've made for a great suprising climax and I wouldn't see anyone complaining if they had.

See I don't have a romantic attachment to this story in the least. To me it's just another comic book plot that's attached to a very worshipped writer. BUT I'm sure there are stories of the past that I wouldn't want altered for TV purposes. Again, if they did this in season one or in STAS I wouldn't complain but not when you've clearly established a show as Unlimited and the notion of calling for help and when your three core members face life and death there's no dicking around.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Oh yeah, I wasn't directly referencing your statement; I was also talking about other people wondering why J'onn didn't call in a ton of JLU members. It could have been cool, but I'm not sure if Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons would like that change. Oh well.
I know this off topic but how did you find From Hell the movie's aDEPPtation from the Hughes Brothers? I'm very curious for an Alan Moore fan's opinion on the film(I think I've yet to hear one?)

Me, I personally liked it a lot! I think Johnny Depp was more interesting and charismatic than the Inspector Fred Abberline from the Graphic Novel. I couldn't believe he swayed me into liking him better when the Abberline in Graphic Novel was like 20 years older. But that's Johnny Depp, just a force of nature as an actor I feel.

Even with that it still remained very faithful and tight as a drum.

[Nick K.]

From Hell stunk dude. :p

[Wayman Tisdale]

Actually, I haven't checked the movie out. I've been meaning to, but I'm always bad with that kind of stuff. I'll try to rent it, though.
YEAH, check it out, you won't be dissapointed, I think you can buy a pre-view DVD for like 8 bucks now.

Johnny Depp is always worth the watch! He's the best actor around.

[Wayman Tisdale]

From Hell stunk dude. :pI read the graphic novel just before I watched the film, and I honestly can't see how they could've done a better job with what the studio allowed them.

But let's let GMahler judge for himself. "JLU Kid" have you ever read the graphic novel?

[Wayman Tisdale]

So did The Princess Diaries 2.
HAHHHA does JLU kid like Princess Diaries 2?? hahahhahaa

[Nick K.]

What the Hell? I :wub: Princess Diaries. Not. :p

Well, Tisdale, you asked what everyone thought of the movie. I just gave my opinion and no I haven't read the GN.

And Al Pacino owns Johnny Depp my friend.

[Wayman Tisdale]

What the Hell? I :wub: Princess Diaries. Not. :p

Well, Tisdale, you asked what everyone thought of the movie. I just gave my opinion and no I haven't read the GN.

And Al Pacino owns Johnny Depp my friend.Is that because you and Al are Bronx homeys? I know it's YOUR opinion(and I respect it) and Al Pacino is great(nigh immortal) at his particular niche but Johnny Depp is just off the charts incredible! He has a chameleon range that I just don't see from anyone around, older, his age or younger.

Watching him for the last 15 years I think Johnny Depp is the smartest, best, ballsiest, most creative, most interesting actor around of this or any other generation. Anyone that can go from Edward Scissorhands to Ed Wood to Donnie Brasco to Hunter S. Thompson(Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas) to Ichabod Crane to George Jung(BLOW) to Inspector Fred Abberline to two amazing self created characters in Captain Jack Sparrow and Agent Sands(Once Upon a Time in Mexico) is a chameleon track record that dwarfs anyone with a SAG card.

Al Pacino make no mistake is great at what he does, but he has no problem being redundant and being the exact same Al Pacino film after film. Johnny Depp is allergic to redundancy and his versitility and range is in a class by itself.


P.S. Donnie Brasco was an absolute delight watching those two act together in a brilliant film.

[Nick K.]

Is that because you and Al are Bronx homeys? I know it's YOUR opinion(and I respect it) and Al Pacino is great(nigh immortal) at his particular niche but Johnny Depp is just off the charts incredible! He has a chameleon range that I just don't see from anyone around, older, his age or younger.

Watching him for the last 15 years I think Johnny Depp is the smartest, best, ballsiest, most creative, most interesting actor around of this or any other generation. Anyone that can go from Edward Scissorhands to Ed Wood to Donnie Brasco to Hunter S. Thompson(Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas) to Ichabod Crane to George Jung(BLOW) to Inspector Fred Abberline to two amazing self created characters in Captain Jack Sparrow and Agent Sands(Once Upon a Time in Mexico) is a chameleon track record that dwarfs anyone with a SAG card.

Al Pacino make no mistake is great at what he does, but he has no problem being redundant and being the exact same Al Pacino film after film. Johnny Depp is allergic to redundancy and his versitility and range is in a class by itself.


P.S. Donnie Brasco was an absolute delight watching those two act together in a brilliant film.

Bronx is here!!! We're way off topic... want to take this to the Entertainment Board? ;)

Anyways, need someoen who ranges like Depp but better? Ed Norton. Indeed, he is awesome.

And Pacino can be redundant... but he also can be so completely out there.

Anyways, Back on topic... and I guess we can take it to the Entertainment Board. :p

[Wayman Tisdale]

Bronx is here!!! We're way off topic... want to take this to the Entertainment Board? ;)

Anyways, need someoen who ranges like Depp but better? Ed Norton. Indeed, he is awesome.
I've actually gotten into this before with Ed Norton and I simply just don't get it. I find him almost as redundant as Pacino but more subtle about it. I don't find him remotely possessing the chameleon gene Johnny Depp has in the least. Ed Norton does the exact same thing every movie! He's the Ivy-League, clean-cut, tortured, stammering, savant, genius boy, EVERY TIME, so much so he actually bores me. Whether it's The Italian Job, Primal Fear, Keeping the Faith, Fight Club, Rounders, or 25th Hour (one of the worst/derivative Spike Lee films of all time). He doesn't do accents, impersonation or anything Deppworthy, chameleon wise. Completely redundant but is dependable in his own wheelhouse!

The only time I've seen him stray from that was in American History X which he actually showed balls. But even there, as a basketball player I've never seen anyone look less believable in terms of on the court skills(who is he kidding) or lack there of. In fact most films Ed Norton is in he tries to crowbar a basketball scene in(American History X, 25th Hour, Keeping the Faith). As a basketball player, everytime I see him try to play on screen I'm insulted. The most ridiculous thing was in The 25th Hour he was supposed to be like All-City or some crap, trust me this guy wouldn't have made my girls team.


P.S. It's funny you mention him(Norton) I heard Vincent Gallo on Howard Stern last Thursday call Norton one of Hollywood's many De Niro clones which I pretty much agree with.

[Batman49]

As far as this series so far, I like it. I don't like it more then season 2 of Justice League, but I have enjoyed it so far. Even though I miss the hour episodes, they have made the half hour format work so far, which I had no doubt they would. I'm anxious to see the rest of this season's episodes. As for those on the fence, it is too early to judge it fairly, which is why I still think that maybe this season can be better then last season (it's a damn hard task though).



P.S. It's funny you mention him(Norton) I heard Vincent Gallo on Howard Stern last Thursday call Norton one of Hollywood's many De Niro clones which I pretty much agree with.Nothing wrong with that, Johnny Depp (who, I agree with you, is one of our greatest actors, I just don't think he's the only one of our greatest actors) is a Marlon Brando clone. Sorry to butt into your discussion there but I just found it an interesting one. You two remind me of the arguments my film partner and I sometimes have.

[Nick K.]

I've actually gotten into this before with Ed Norton and I just don't get it. I find him almost as redundant as Pacino but more subtle about it. I don't find him remotely possessing the chameleon gene Johnny Depp has in the least. Ed Norton does the exact same thing every movie! He's the Ivy- League, clean-cut, tortured, stammering, savant, genius boy, EVERY TIME, so much so he actually bores me. Whether it's Primal Fear, Keeping the Faith Fight Club , Rounders, or 25th Hour (one of the worst/derivative Spike Lee films of all time). He doesn't do accents, impersonation or anything Deppworthy, chameleon wise. Completely redundant but is dependable in his own wheelhouse!

The only time I've seen him stray from that was in American History X which he actually showed balls. But even there, as a basketball player I've never seen anyone look less believable in terms of on the court skills(who is he kidding) or lack there of. In fact most films Ed Norton is in he tries to crowbar a basketball scene in(American History X, 25th Hour, Keeping the Faith). As a basketball player, everytime I see him try to play on screen I'm insulted. The most ridiculous thing was in The 25th Hour he was supposed like All-City or some crap, trust me this guy wouldn't have made my girls team.


P.S. It's funny you mention him(Norton) I heard Vincent Gallo on Howard Stern last Thursday call Norton one of Hollywood's many De Niro clones which I pretty much agree with.

=[... Please stop now before I whoop you. Seriously though, let's take this to the Entertainment Board before we get in trouble. I'll start a "Greatest Actor" Thread. See ya there.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Nothing wrong with that, Johnny Depp (who, I agree with you, is one of our greatest actors, I just don't think he's the only one of our greatest actors) is a Marlon Brando clone.Oh no, Johnny Depp took some major non-commercial(Gilbert Grape, Ed Wood) gambles that Brando never had to endure. I just can't see Brando being able to pull off Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood, Ichabod Crane, Hunter S Thompson or Captain Jack Sparrow in the creative way Depp did. I CAN see Depp pulling off most of what Brando has done. AND Brando vanished for quite a long time that has to work against him in terms of year to year longevity.

[ArtificialIdiot]

All I read from Bruce Timm when this series first got off the ground back in 2000-01 was the qualifying of Aquaman's deletion from the main team(continues to be a big controversy) saying "Oh well, you know Aquaman needs water to be effective, there's no water on the moon(etc), so Aquaman couldn't be of any use." Not only do I find that lazy but I find it broadly misinformed on Aquaman's plethora of abilities as any comic reader knows from his own series or JLA. I very much respect Bruce Timm's take on things but I couldn't disagree more with that assertion!

You know, I always saw it as Bruce Timm not including him out of respect for the character. Let's face it, Superfriends made Aquaman a laughing stock, a mistake Timm didn't want to repeat. Timm also gave him an interesting angle that excused his absence from the team, and that also means (in my mind at least) that he'd be one of the less accesible JLU members. Not somebody you can call on short notice.

As a result, Aquaman's appearances always have impact and a strong personal motive. Not a bad thing if you as me...

[Crow]

Yeah. The only place you'll find a Justice League of America is in comic books, Justice League is a animated tv show. They're different entities. Aquaman is his own fish, they've made that quite clear and it works great. He's got his own nation to worry about.

From what I have gathered, the doyens behind JL are working with the cards they've been dealt. At the moment, and ever since it began production, Lord of the Rings has been an on-going product. Until the Extended DVD is out and the focus is off that, Jackson and those New Line got to do the trilogy need to toe the party line. I reckon that once they've closed the book (heheh) on LOTR and don't have any more contractual obligations with their bosses, they'll declare that the Extendeds are their favourite babies; and not perhaps the Theatricals. Which they're sort of required to say is their definitive versions anyway, at least until they are free agents again. I'll leave the LOTR stuff there because I don't want to take this off-topic again/more.

The JL people were able to secure more JL goodness for us by pitching a nip here and a tuck there to the higher-ups; and I for one think it's the same show but with a bit more freeom. At first I thought, geez why fix something that isn't broke and drop the established characters like GL and WW (the former having a lot of characterisation in the first two series, the latter not so). Now I'm seeing (of course, I haven't seen one episode yet) that it looks like they have only put the show in new wrapping so to speak.

It sounds like we're getting Wonder Woman focus. This is what people were crying out for! I can't wait!

[jadrax]

hhahhaahaaa!!!:anime:

I have never read the JLA comics...but from what I've heard, in the comics it's WW and SM...which I don't mind at all!;)Superman and Wonder Woman have only ever got together romantically in Elseworlds tales afaik.
The only hero to date her in the current comic continuity is, well Batman.

[Knight]

Superman and Wonder Woman have only ever got together romantically in Elseworlds tales afaik.
The only hero to date her in the current comic continuity is, well Batman.
Thats on point although Superman and Wonder Woman have kissed. She is concidered his best friend, while her and Bats on the other hand have had a little more going on.

[SirLemming]

What I've seen so far shows that the half-hour format is the most crucial aspect of this change. It has allowed the writers to do several different types of stories in just 5 episodes.

Unfortunately, it seems like most of these episodes are still... trying to get the series on its feet. The majority of them have seemed like "exceptions" so far. 2 comedy episodes and 1 episode starring only the main three (and one of the comedy episodes only starred a main group of four).

There's huge potential here, though. I hope they use it. While "Hawk and Dove" was not a good episode, it did show that they know how to introduce new characters well even when they don't have the time to provide much of a backstory.

[Phantasm]

Thats on point although Superman and Wonder Woman have kissed. She is concidered his best friend, while her and Bats on the other hand have had a little more going on.
ugh!!:eek: I guess women just can't keep their hands off him...:sad: Even Wonder Woman!

[GL2k2]

To make afair judgement, I can't judge this series until the season finale. I think that the writers may have something in store for us that will make these silly episodes worthwhile, at least God I hope so. The one thing I've noticed that's a common thread with all of the early episodes outside of "Initiation" is that magic takes precedence. Now I'm not keen on my DC magic knowledge at all. But that seems to be one way they may go.

Will Dr. Fate have a huge part or the Endless or the Spectre. I don't know and at this point don't care. One thing that we all know will happen is certainly going to be war.

[b.t.]

All I read from Bruce Timm when this series first got off the ground back in 2000-01 was the qualifying of Aquaman's deletion from the main team(continues to be a big controversy) saying "Oh well, you know Aquaman needs water to be effective, there's no water on the moon(etc), so Aquaman couldn't be of any use." Not only do I find that lazy but I find it broadly misinformed on Aquaman's plethora of abilities as any comic reader knows from his own series or JLA. I very much respect Bruce Timm's take on things but I couldn't disagree more with that assertion!

sorry, but i think you're mis-quoting (or mis-paraphrasing) me...i referenced the "aquaman's only useful when there's a body of water around" thing as being the GENERAL PUBLIC'S perception of aquaman, not mine, based on his poor showing in the old "superfriends" days....it's become something of a popular joke (i recall cn even doing a spoof ad mocking his supposed "uselessness out of water" a few years back)....the residual bad taste of the superfriends aquaman was ONE of the reasons we didn't pick him for the original jl line-up, but not a major one (we frankly just liked hawkgirl better)...honestly, though, i think he works best as an occasional guest star....as cool as his badass attitude is, i fear it would get grating if he were to appear on a regular basis....

as for his m.i.a. status "continuing to be a big controversy": really? on which site(s)? i was under the impression most people had gotten over it by now....

[Sue]

I'm digging JLU so far, but I agree with Fone Bone that it's too early to make a real judgment. These first few episodes are more or less standalone stories but starting next week, things are going to matter. I think none of us should judge this season until it's over.I'm with you. So far, I'm liking what I'm seeing. JLU has a different feel to it than the previous two seasons, and that's fine by me since it's a new show with a new format. That we've had two light-hearted episodes also gives it that feel. Still, I'd wait till the season ends before making a final judgement.

[Grimlock]

Unfortunately, it seems like most of these episodes are still... trying to get the series on its feet. The majority of them have seemed like "exceptions" so far. 2 comedy episodes and 1 episode starring only the main three (and one of the comedy episodes only starred a main group of four).


I completely agree with you. I think 2 of the 5 episodes have been shown out of production order, so i think a lot of these episodes that have batman in them were meant to be more spread out. I don't think we're going to be flooded with batman (as much as i'd love that) in the later part of the season. In fact, i think he'll barely show up at all until the season finale, and that kinda sucks. I love seeing bats, so i wish his appearances had been more spread out instead of chunked together. But hey, maybe he will be in a lot of later episodes.

But again, in general, i'm not sure we did in fact get a genuine cross-section of the show since episodes were shown out of order. I like JLU so far, and would imagine it can only get better.

[Wayman Tisdale]

sorry, but i think you're mis-quoting (or mis-paraphrasing) me...i referenced the "aquaman's only useful when there's a body of water around" thing as being the GENERAL PUBLIC'S perception of aquaman, not mine, based on his poor showing in the old "superfriends" days....it's become something of a popular joke (i recall cn even doing a spoof ad mocking his supposed "uselessness out of water" a few years back)....the residual bad taste of the superfriends aquaman was ONE of the reasons we didn't pick him for the original jl line-up, but not a major one (we frankly just liked hawkgirl better)...honestly, though, i think he works best as an occasional guest star....as cool as his badass attitude is, i fear it would get grating if he were to appear on a regular basis....

as for his m.i.a. status "continuing to be a big controversy": really? on which site(s)? i was under the impression most people had gotten over it by now....I'll play along "Bruce", it doesn't take much for me to go on an Aquaman rant.

-First off, for anyone to hold the friggin Superfriends against Aquaman is cheap and lazy. EVERYONE outside of Superman and Green Lantern got mishandled on that show. Wonder Woman was 1/8 of what she is in the comics and barely more powerful than Aquaman was ever portrayed. She barely had super strength or speed, and was 98% dependent on her lasso. So if you can use the aquatic telepathy stereotype against Aquaman, you can do the same thing with WW's lasso solving every problem. Aquaman's major offense is hand to hand combat, and the dopey FCC wouldn't allow them to punch on Saturday mornings, what the hell else was he going to do? If anything Aquaman was inconsistent, one ep you see him pushing a cruiseliner around or prying a blue whale open manually and the next he's tied up by mere seeweed or simple rope.

-No matter who I talk to about the show the question of "Where's Aquaman?" ALWAYS seems to come up. This leads me to believe he's a lot more popular than the novice comic eye can sense. His two guest appearances just weren't enough and upstaged Hawkgirl in just 4 episodes. He really is Justice League royalty maybe even moreso than Atlantean and he dominates roughly 70% of the world, the oceans, THAT alone should be reason enough to include him. Plus, he's actually from EARTH, J'onn isn't, Superman isn't, Hawkgirl wasn't, his motivation for preserving the Earth makes much more sense to me, it's his home and he rules roughly 3/4 of it.

-The excuse has always been when writers or producers try to qualify his deletion from the comic or animated series lineups that "He's King of Atlantis", and he's not interested in the surface world's problems", blah blah blah, that is just total BS. If you could stop a threat on land first, than it would ensure that it would never turn it's sights on the oceans and Atlantis. In other words stop Darkseid with the Justice League or the oceans are next and in his crosshairs. Why wouldn't Aquaman want some semblance of control of that even if it's part time? I truly believe the writers are too lazy to incorporate him into land fighting scenes because he can't fly and has no rapid land transportation. Even though on land he should be able to run like 80-100(untested,educated guess) mph when you take the water pressure off on land.

-The League's just not the same without him. His dynamic with Wonder Woman, Superman, Batman and Martian Manhunter is always great drama. Couple that with he may have more JL comic history than all of them. As "GMahler" said he bounces off them very nicely!

-In Bruce Timm's/Kevin Hopps own storylines "Enemy Below" Aquaman has already found out that the JL is much more honor bound and trust worthy than HIS OWN "people". This via Ocean Master/Orm and his treasonous ways. Aquaman should really never trust that entire kingdom in the same way again. Atlantean loyalties be damned and their credibility with Arthur is about shot I would say. His own people were naive enough to buy into Orm's crap and not flinch about destroying him. At this point the only people Aquaman would be proof positive absolutely having his back is the Justice League and especially Superman. I don't know about you but I like to surround myself with people(The Justice League) that have my best interest at heart and not people(jealous Atlanteans) that are perpetually hoping and waiting for my family and I to slip up and fail!

-If Aquaman still despises the other surface worlders(ie the UN) in order to keep that in check, what do they say, keep your friends close and your enemies closer. This is not an indictment on YOU of course just my opinions that have been eating at me since Secret Origins. I appreciate your response and respect it.

-Hawkgirl was BY FAR my least favorite member, through and through, she never got better for me. I couldn't have been happier she was booted. If you take away that non-existent/farcical super mace she's nothing more than a less agile Batgirl with wings. Hawkgirl was just a forced, PC mess, all the way around. This mace may have irritated me the most. The more powerful the animators made it, the more I hated it and her. It became about the mace and not the character. The producers used to brag she was going to be this great detective, after two seasons she may have been the worst on the entire team including Flash.

[Steven C]

JLU just doesnt cut it. JL was good, JLU sucks. I hate this new format where they try and stick new heros in. The original 7 could have done things way better then the new heroes (ie Green Arrow, Supergirl, Captain Atom, Hawk and Dove and the tracker guy in the pig episode)

What I want to know is, where the world was in trouble in the various JL episodes where there the rest of the heroes? Where was Captain Atom in Starcrossed? He could have taken out the shield thing like that and GL didnt need to get his ass kicked.

And since Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are pretty consistant in JLU, I say they should scarp the JLU and make a cartoon called Superman, Batman, WW: Trinity

[b.t.]

[QUOTE=Wayman Tisdale]-First off, for anyone to hold the friggin Superfriends against Aquaman is cheap and lazy. EVERYONE outside of Superman and Green Lantern got mishandled on that show.[quote]

yes, they were all handled poorly on SUPERFRIENDS, no question...but for some weird reason, the lame-ass aquaman is the one that sticks out in people's minds...and again, it's not that WE held it against him, but that we felt his rep IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC'S PERCEPTION had been severely damaged by SUPERFRIENDS...obviously, it didn't stop us from using him, in fact it made us want to make him as cool as possible, when we DID use him, to un-do the damage...

however, in doing so, we gave him an attitude that really doesn't scream "team player"...

but hey, if you prefer to think we're just "cheap and lazy", that's your prerogative....whatever floats your boat.....

[quote] His two guest appearances just weren't enough and upstaged Hawkgirl in just 4 episodes.[quote]

guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one....

[quote]The excuse has always been when writers or producers try to qualify his deletion from the comic or animated series lineups that "He's King of Atlantis", and he's not interested in the surface world's problems", blah blah blah, that is just total BS.[quote]

i could be wrong, but i think you're putting words in my mouth again....i don't ever remember saying that...i've read comments from lots of FANS suggesting that....

[quite]I truly believe the writers are too lazy to incorporate him into land fighting scenes because he can't fly and has no rapid land transportation.[quote]

wow, THAT'S a new one! however, i can honestly say we never EVER excluded aquaman from a story for that reason....

anyhow, you should be happy to know that aquaman will be appearing at least twice this season....that's one appearance more than hawkgirl :D....

[MJC]

I've enjoyed JLU so far. However, I REALLY wish they'd stop shying away from using the Flash, maybe cut down on Batman a little. Also, some of the villains could be a little more threatening. So far, Mongul is really the only decent villain to have appeared.

[Nick K.]

anyhow, you should be happy to know that aquaman will be appearing at least twice this season....that's one appearance more than hawkgirl :D....

Awesome. Thanks for the info!

[Wayman Tisdale]

yes, they were all handled poorly on SUPERFRIENDS, no question...but for some weird reason, the lame-ass aquaman is the one that sticks out in people's minds...and again, it's not that WE held it against him, but that we felt his rep IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC'S PERCEPTION had been severely damaged by SUPERFRIENDS...obviously, it didn't stop us from using him, in fact it made us want to make him as cool as possible, when we DID use him, to un-do the damage.......Well then how does that explain using Hawkgirl, she and Hawkman were lamer than anyone on Superfriends? At least Aquaman had the OCCASIONAL episode where they let him flex his massive strength or contribute heavily when did the Hawks really do anything besides fly on the show?


however, in doing so, we gave him an attitude that really doesn't scream "team player"Who does? How does a Martian, a Thangarian, a Kryptonian, A Themiscaryian, a Gothamophile have an attitude that screams "team player" for defending earth? At least Aquaman is actually FROM earth(rules 75% of it) not a glorified illegal alien. Aquaman's motivation for protecting earth is greater than any of theirs.


anyhow, you should be happy to know that aquaman will be appearing at least twice this season....that's one appearance more than hawkgirl :D....WOW, that's fantastic, that actually makes me feel better. Thanks for the hearty responses and YES capital letters are overrated.

[b.t.]

Thanks for the hearty responses and YES capital letters are overrated.

chalk it up to my inherent laziness.

[RAINMAN]

So far this series as tunr otu the way i thougth it would....awful. The hero of the week stuuf is gettig old, the eps don`t have good plots and the almost curesing ploy make the show seem childish, the last thing we need is auqa man making thing worst. You don`t need the superfriends to tell ya hes a dead weigt char. Even in the current comics he don`t show up too often. What he gonnao when he face mangul? Poke his eyes out?:yawn:

[Wayman Tisdale]

So far this series as tunr otu the way i thougth it would....awful. The hero of the week stuuf is gettig old, the eps don`t have good plots and the almost curesing ploy make the show seem childish, the last thing we need is auqa man making thing worst. You don`t need the superfriends to tell ya hes a dead weigt char. Even in the current comics he don`t show up too often. What he gonnao when he face mangul? Poke his eyes out?:yawn:Aquaman is from Atlantis and hasn't had ONE day of school and could spell better than you.

He'd come up from beneath the Fortress of Solitude and drag "mangul" to his icy grave. Did you see Aquaman's fight with Wonder Woman in "Terror Beyond"?(that's how formidable he is in comics) Then he'll teach him to spell "Mongul" correctly!

[Wayman Tisdale]

chalk it up to my inherent laziness.
Hahahha touche' my blonde haired friend!

[Mackaybear]

You know I usually don't make it a habit to stir up discussion on a "hot" topic that's slowing a bit. But if you look at the two appearances by Aquaman in JL you'd see how much Timm and Co have done to reverse the "useless" and "uncool" perception of the King of Atlantis. Seriously royal, and concerned over his people and his kindgom primarily. But coming to an at first begrudging respect for the JL, and revising his opinions of the "surface dwellers" takes quite a bit of personal growth. Giving up previous and deeply felt attitudes is not an easy task, and isn't any easier when you've been proven wrong.

"The Enemy Below" and "The Terror Beyond" show major growth for Aquaman throughout. In the "Terror Beyond" he went from only helping out because of th Atlantian connection and threat to his kingdom. To helping out the Legue by coming through the portal and fighting. Leaving his kingdom undefended. And then came to Solomon Grundy's funeral. And actually opening up to the JL memebers at the funeral.

He's been portrayed as a "badass" but primarily as a Monarch who will fight for and do what ever is necessary for his people. Pretty much the picture of nobility in fact. If you disagree with him not being on the JL itself, still you have to admit Aquaman's portrayal here has been very memorable. Plus he kicked WW butt good on dry land in "the Terror Beyond". Which goes quite a way to disproving the "useless on land" theory. But b.t. and co had to show that to start dispelling that perception.

Hawkgirl did add to the overall storyline and overall theme to JL. We couldn't have had the epic "Starcrossed" without her. And she developed over time from being a winged warrrior princess to a fully realized person throughout the two seasons of JL. We couldn't have cared for her or her untenable situation in "Starcrossed" if she hadn't been fully "fleshed out" by the crew. Now WW is finally getting the development and growth in JLU.

And b.t. if you're still around what's up with Flash's absence? Will we see him at all in JLU other than cameo? And why can't Wally get the same development as everyone else has?

[Phantasm]

However, I REALLY wish they'd stop shying away from using the Flash, maybe cut down on Batman a little.
I don't know WHY people don't want more Batman.Obviously majority of the posters here are massive BTAS Batman fans and should be extremely happy that they get an adequate amount of light shed on that version of Batman in JLU!
I for one am wholeheartedly thrilled!!!
The other characters that everyone so wants to see, well, what's the point, it's not like they'll get a whole lot of development because at the most they can make an appearance once?twice? You will only just get a taste of them? Well that may be satisfactory to some but...not my idea of fun.I'd rather they build on existing characters and expand their universe!
More BATMAN! YAY!!:D

[Merlin Missy]

anyhow, you should be happy to know that aquaman will be appearing at least twice this season....Ah! So that's why WW got the Invisible Jet! It all makes sense now.

*runs away giggling before WT has a fit*

MM:)

[MJC]

I dunno, Batman already had a LONG animated series and several DTVs, as well as a future incarnation. I say let somebody else get some screentime.

*will be HIGHLY annoyed if Aquaman gets more appearances than Flash*

[ArtificialIdiot]

Ah! So that's why WW got the Invisible Jet! It all makes sense now.

*runs away giggling before WT has a fit*

MM:)

Now that is a visual joke/one liner or snippet of conversation waiting to happen! :D

WW: He can ride with me.
Aquaman: . . . .

*Stares at Jet disapprovingly*

Aquaman: I'll swim.

(although, it obviously wouldn't be as lame as my example, but you get the idea ;))

[GL2k2]

On the Aquaman subject. As an avid Marvel zombie, all I see in him in Sub-Mariner, through and freakin' through. This animated Aquaman was clearly modeled after Namor. Though I know full well, bt isn't responsible all by his lonesome, he's was just using the comic incarnations over the years too, but his militant ecological bent and aprehension for the League and humans in general is Namor-influenced. You can't convince me otherwise.

[Harley_Quinn]

Personally, I have enjoyed JLU so far. But like others on this thread I will hold finally judgment until the end of the season.



Also to reiterate what others have said, some of these 5 shows have been shown out of order and hence you’ve gotten overly comedy/ Bats and WW.



I haven’t really hated any of the episodes I’ve seen so far, except for those guitar riffs (god I hate those), and am very excited to see what we get the coming week.



I really like what I’ve seen so far, for the most part, and am very happy with what B.T. and the team have done.

[Devils_Advocate]

anyhow, you should be happy to know that aquaman will be appearing at least twice this season....that's one appearance more than hawkgirl :D....Sigh :shrug: only 1 appearance of hawkgirl this season. Hopefully she is on more often in Season 4 (err...2...confusing whether JL and JLU are one show).

Oh well.

Oh and this should make the pre-teen boys feel better, I have a crush on John Stewart (animated version of course) and I'm 35! :eek:

D_A

[Ruffian]

After 5 episodes, the series has been satisfactory so far and I am anticipating to see future episodes. Initiation itself gave me a good feel of how JLU was gonna run with its episodes. For the Man Who Has Everything was awesome. Kids Stuff I absolutely loved. Hawk and Dove was a step down, but it wasn't bad. This Little Piggy I liked better than Hawk and Dove. I thought it was fun, but not as fun as Kids Stuff. I also really like the half hour format compared to the two parters. The stories feel tighter with less filler within the episodes themselves.

[creepers keeper]

I have mixed emotions on this show so far. Im sure once they sort out who stays and who goes in the leauge it will be a bit more easy flowing. But Hawk and Dove was the only episode I strongly dislike. The show made me like Supergirl, Green Arrow, Captain Atom, and Zantanna. However, the onslaught of super heros kinda ruins the effect in my opinion. (having Red Tornado knockign on your door) and it is taking away from other characters. Flash, Martain Manhunter, and other supporting characters like Kilowag. I really hope they limit the amount of characters in the next season, becuase It really gets too confussing. I can understand how they want like a "Global Crimefighting Organization" but pick the cool ones only, none of this Hawk and Dove birdpoop!;) This series lets the creators make fun episodes, which I like, but It would be nice to have more serious episodes than fun ones. Great series though

[maxnugget]

Though I know full well, bt isn't responsible all by his lonesome, he's was just using the comic incarnations over the years too, but his militant ecological bent and aprehension for the League and humans in general...

Yep, I've been trying to warn folks here for years...b.t.'s aspirations to wipe out the surface world rival those of Ra's Al Ghul! And yeah, he's a long-time human hater, too. Better not vote for him in '04.

[Style]

I know you love Batman, and so do I...but he's had a lot of screentime. Give someone else the spotlight. I mean, two series dedicated to him plus tons of appearances in all the other DCAU shows. Really...I want to see some of my other favorite characters.
My private little nickname name for Justice League the past couple of years has been "Batman and his amazing friends!" and I didn't mean it as a compliment. But that's all I have to say about that...

I've gone on record as saying I dislike all the extra heros, but it does lend itself to certain intriguing possibilities. For example, I cooked this up before the first season premiered but it would make even more sense now. What if the real reason they formed this massive league had nothing to do with helping people, but rather, was acting as a sort of "internal affairs" for all these super heros. You know, where Superman, Batman, and J'onn J'onze had privately formed the league just to keep tabs on these guys to make sure they never had another "Hawkgirl" on their hands. (Which would be interesting, especially since they have the resident "mind reader" coordinating everyone.) Well, I guess I'm just saying that if I were writing the seaon long story arc, that's the direction I'd take it in.

[Grimlock]

I don't know WHY people don't want more Batman.Obviously majority of the posters here are massive BTAS Batman fans and should be extremely happy that they get an adequate amount of light shed on that version of Batman in JLU!
I for one am wholeheartedly thrilled!!!
The other characters that everyone so wants to see, well, what's the point, it's not like they'll get a whole lot of development because at the most they can make an appearance once?twice? You will only just get a taste of them? Well that may be satisfactory to some but...not my idea of fun.I'd rather they build on existing characters and expand their universe!
More BATMAN! YAY!!:D
I agree about the "we should be happy with so much batman" comment. I do wonder why all these people who are BTAS fans want to see less of batman.

[Wayman Tisdale]

On the Aquaman subject. As an avid Marvel zombie, all I see in him in Sub-Mariner, through and freakin' through. This animated Aquaman was clearly modeled after Namor. Though I know full well, bt isn't responsible all by his lonesome, he's was just using the comic incarnations over the years too, but his militant ecological bent and aprehension for the League and humans in general is Namor-influenced. You can't convince me otherwise.No way, Aquaman's life is much more tragic, he's a hero, a father, a widow, a king, a warrior, a diplomat. He has empathy, intelligence, and depth.

I never saw Namor as anything more than a thong wearing, uber-arrogant, an irritating narcissus underwater Incredible Hulk.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Ah! So that's why WW got the Invisible Jet! It all makes sense now.

*runs away giggling before WT has a fit*

MM:)
No no I can take it, I'm just burned out those same old three different Superfriends jokes. Lest you forget they weren't any kinder to Wonder Woman on that series.

[Knight]

I never saw Namor as anything more than a thong wearing, uber-arrogant, an irritating narcissus underwater Incredible Hulk.
Lol. Wayman your posts never cease to amaze me. But I do agree saying Namor and Aquaman are alike is a insult to Aquaman.

[Wayman Tisdale]

You know I usually don't make it a habit to stir up discussion on a "hot" topic that's slowing a bit. But if you look at the two appearances by Aquaman in JL you'd see how much Timm and Co have done to reverse the "useless" and "uncool" perception of the King of Atlantis. Seriously royal, and concerned over his people and his kindgom primarily. But coming to an at first begrudging respect for the JL, and revising his opinions of the "surface dwellers" takes quite a bit of personal growth. Giving up previous and deeply felt attitudes is not an easy task, and isn't any easier when you've been proven wrong.

"The Enemy Below" and "The Terror Beyond" show major growth for Aquaman throughout. In the "Terror Beyond" he went from only helping out because of th Atlantian connection and threat to his kingdom. To helping out the Legue by coming through the portal and fighting. Leaving his kingdom undefended. And then came to Solomon Grundy's funeral. And actually opening up to the JL memebers at the funeral.

He's been portrayed as a "badass" but primarily as a Monarch who will fight for and do what ever is necessary for his people. Pretty much the picture of nobility in fact. If you disagree with him not being on the JL itself, still you have to admit Aquaman's portrayal here has been very memorable. Plus he kicked WW butt good on dry land in "the Terror Beyond". Which goes quite a way to disproving the "useless on land" theory. But b.t. and co had to show that to start dispelling that perception.

Hawkgirl did add to the overall storyline and overall theme to JL. We couldn't have had the epic "Starcrossed" without her. And she developed over time from being a winged warrrior princess to a fully realized person throughout the two seasons of JL. We couldn't have cared for her or her untenable situation in "Starcrossed" if she hadn't been fully "fleshed out" by the crew. Now WW is finally getting the development and growth in JLU.

And b.t. if you're still around what's up with Flash's absence? Will we see him at all in JLU other than cameo? And why can't Wally get the same development as everyone else has?Great post, even better observations, although I of course disagree about Hawkgirl, I find Wonder Woman's development to be much more impressive by the episode. I think Wonder Woman still remains the most underrated on the series and my personal favorite among the main cast.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Lol. Wayman your posts never cease to amaze me. But I do agree saying Namor and Aquaman are alike is a insult to Aquaman.Thanks man, Aquaman is a true comic book passion of mine and I get extra revved up when it comes to defending him which I've been doing for years. Like Batman, I never quit when it comes to Aquaman.

[Sue]

Aquaman is from Atlantis and hasn't had ONE day of school and could spell better than you.
Wayman, we all know how much you love Aquaman, and that's cool, but getting personal like this because someone trashes your favorite character is unnecessary.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Wayman, we all know how much you love Aquaman, and that's cool, but getting personal like this because someone trashes your favorite character is unnecessary.Hey dude he was trashing Aquaman, that's family:mad:, what else am I going to do??

His grammatical butchering was like a technical free throw, a KaZaA download, a 3-2 fastball, or a Larry King softball question I couldn't help myself to knocking out of the park. Is it cheap, probably, but it's a reflexive defense towards a character I love to death.

[Wayman Tisdale]

the residual bad taste of the superfriends aquaman was ONE of the reasons we didn't pick him for the original jl line-up, but not a major one (we frankly just liked hawkgirl better)Whoa whoa "b.t." I forgot to respond to this before(was listening to Air America radio and a Janeane Garofalo rant on Rudy Giuliani that distracted me) WHO liked Hawkgirl better, color me cynical but I have a very hard time believing the ENTIRE staff liked Hawkgirl better than Aquaman, specifically Shaun McGaughlin(who wrote Aquaman in the early 90's and is a massive fan I read) or Dwayne McDuffie that wrote the brilliant "Terror Beyond" storyline having Aquaman respectfully defeat Wonder Woman?

I must get this out of the way though because I feel guilty I didn't convey this before. I may be coming off as tooo negative. If it makes you feel any better "b.t."(and I hope it does), the JL team's on screen take on Aquaman is as laser perfect as any character they(you;)) do(including Batman). The staff has his attitude, strength, speed, fighting skills, agility, leadership as perfectly portrayed as anyone including Peter David or Grant Morrison. I'm admittedly the hardass barometer, the Aquaman zealot of someone Bruce Timm and co probably feared storming them at some comic convention(I've actually never been). BUT despite my long time disenchantment with Aquaman's lack of appearances, Aquaman's 4 episodes are as good and respectful as they could possibly be! Lest anyone think I'm dissatisfied with his portrayal thus far, that couldn't be futher from the case. Even the voice of Scott Rummel, whoever's idea to cast him was sooo good it made me jealous I didn't find him! His Aquaman is as good(in terms of getting the voice down) as Kevin Conroy's Batman in my book and he's only done 4 episodes.


P.S. FYI. Just a silly aside, I've heard her on radio mention this several times, Janeane Garofalo is a huuuuge comic book fan and would make for a great voice over in the series I feel. Who could she do, ahhhh I don't know, maybe Black Canary or maybe Gypsy, she has that NYC West Village feel, no?

[Dwayne McDuffie]

I have a very hard time believing the ENTIRE staff liked Hawkgirl better than Aquaman, specifically Shaun McGaughlin(who wrote Aquaman in the early 90's and is a massive fan I read) or Dwayne McDuffie that wrote the brilliant "Terror Beyond" storyline having Aquaman respectfully defeat Wonder Woman?

Not that I was around when they picked the team members but while I like Aquaman a lot, I LOVE Hawkgirl (and if the fight hadn't been near the water, Diana would have cleaned Aquaman's clock for him. No shame there, Wonder Woman's no joke either).

Fanboy mode off.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Not that I was around when they picked the team members but while I like Aquaman a lot, I LOVE Hawkgirl (and if the fight hadn't been near the water, Diana would have cleaned Aquaman's clock for him. No shame there, Wonder Woman's no joke either).

Fanboy mode off.Oh I realize Aquaman probably shouldn't beat WW on land(but should last quite a while in my book) but what exactly would make you LOVE Hawkgirl? I flat out don't get it, I honestly don't see enough positives in the character for anyone to love her. She's is 98% reliant on that super mace for me to ever take her seriously, I've tried, BELIEVE ME I've tried but I just can't stand her. She grated on me faster than I could ever imagine(probably around "War World"). What do you see in her, I'm curious? John Stewart on the other hand I grew to love(you converted me) but I hated him at first for my traditional GL allegiance.

Is it that Hawkgirl is basically your(the JL producers) baby, in that the character has been basically reimagined(Hawkgirl/woman in the comics right now is Kendra Saunders not Shayera) with your personal spins on it?

P.S. But Dwayne I hate to break to you but water is always around, it's 3/4 of the world, so why shouldn't Aquaman use it, hence his importance to the team, you could take anyone out with that advantage. It's not some freak accident or invention water just happens to be around, Aquaman looks at it as if water wasn't around THAT would be the freakish thing.

[Dwayne McDuffie]

I like to write characters, not collections of powers. In stories, I like to explore conflict and issues of Humanism. I couldn't care less who can benchpress what. In the context of this series, Hawkgirl's a more interesting character than any of the others, as her reactions aren't restricted by standard notions of heroism, or expectations based on what we know about her from other media. Her motivations are complex, often unpredictable, yet still relatable. And Maria can play any note you give her, from action hero bravado to humor, from tenderness to rage, and play it beautifully.

What's not to love?

[Wayman Tisdale]

I like to write characters, not collections of powers. In stories, I like to explore conflict and issues of Humanism. I couldn't care less who can benchpress what. In the context of this series, Hawkgirl's a more interesting character than any of the others, as her reactions aren't restricted by standard notions of heroism, or expectations based on what we know about her from other media. Her motivations are complex, often unpredictable, yet still relatable. And Maria can play any note you give her, from action hero bravado to humor, from tenderness to rage, and play it beautifully.

What's not to love?Hmmmm, I'm not sure I agree with your take on the Hawkgirl I was watching, especially her possessing more of those traits than the other characters, THAT I really don't agree with. I think in one way or another they ALL showed all those character traits in some way shape or form throughout the series. Of course this may have been attributed to your(and your staff) multifaceted writing.

Specifically I found Wonder Woman and Susan Eisenberg's voice work to be all those things you liked in Maria Canals and much more(IMO). Susan Eisenberg has Wonder Woman's warrior naivety DOWN and she's evoked more emotion in me through anger, compassion and humor more than Hawkgirl/Maria Canals ever did. AND Eisenberg gets better every episode. When she said to Hawkgirl "I should leave you to burn" in "Starcrossed" it left a chill down my 6'9" frame like I haven't felt in animation. Couple that in the exact same installment with the very best delivery of "Who's NEXT?" I've ever heard in my life! It's a simple line YES, but Eisenberg did something to it with the vitriolic sting in her voice that shook the screen. I couldn't dare to deliver it that way after beating Lionel Simmons in one on one in 1991.


P.S. Which leaves the question does your Hawkgirl bare ANY similarity to the real Shayera Hol in the comics in terms of personality? I say this because the Shayera Hol in the comics was fairly banal to say the least and makes YOUR Hawkgirl look like Kathy Griffin. Did you reimagine her entirely? Not to mention who's idea was the energy super-mace, instead of using her other arsenal of weapons?

And this has been bugging me for a while since watching the "Starcrossed" DVD, according to Andrea Romano, Maria Canals is supposed to have some subtle Latin/Spanish accent on Hawkgirl countering Victor Rivers/Hro Talak in and out Latin/Spanish accent. Was a slight Latin/Spanish lilt your intention, because I've listened intently to Canals after I heard that interview with Romano and I just can't detect it in her?

[Killtacular]

JLU is just JL with cornier dialogue and dumber stories. It has no right to call itself "Unlimited." How 'new' characters are woven into plotlines is no different than how villian cameos were handled in the first series (such as the completely random villain crime sprees in Hereafter and the Dream episode). The choices for new heroes for each episode are once again random and stupid, like The Terror Beyond a thousand times over. They are not used effectively or relevently. The characterization is all over the place. That said, the direction is much better and there is less padding and the switch to 30 minute stories was a good idea. But that's not good enough.

[Crambam]

Great topic. My thoughts on the series so far have basically amounted to disappointment.

For the Man Who Has Everything was AWESOME. I loved it as much as any of the finest episodes of Superman, JL and Batman. That to me, was what all of these episodes should be. But I didn't really like the other episodes that aired. Kid Stuff was ok, but I guess that's because it featured characters that I really liked. It's a distant second to For the Man though.

The other episodes I thought were boring. Of the new heroes shown, I really only liked Captain Atom, and to a lesser extent, Hawk.

But overall, too much humor, not enough epic storytelling like I saw in Season 2 of JL. I thought Season 2 of JL was excellent overall, with the exception of Eclipsed.

But I agree with people who think that perhaps the format isn't working--that people don't really need these third tier heroes. I also miss the hour format.

I want more Superman. He is the most powerful hero and the most inspirational. I don't understand why they had to stop producing Superman:TAS.

Being a fan of Superman, episodes that feature him will always be my favorite.

I'm a fan of Flash. I don't get why they have dropped him from the show so far. It's kind of a shame that each of these characters don't have their own series', like they do comic books.

Regarding Aquaman, I would love to see him on the team, but I don't fault what the writers did with him. They definitely went out of their way to make him cooler, and I am very pleased with the results of the two Aquaman JL episodes.

Aquaman cutting off his hand was the most powerful moment since Darkseid killed Turpin.

I'm not a fan of Hawkgirl. Never was. When Hawkgirl kicked butt, I never got pumped up the way I did when other heroes kicked butt. I guess I felt she never truly belonged. That said, I was thrilled with Starcrossed. Of course, I would like to know how the vote went, but that's another issue.

I'm glad she is not in the league anymore. I do understand what the writers were trying to do, and that's fine. But there were other characters I liked better.

Justice League, and most of the DCAU seems like it's a kids show written for adults. JLU seems more like a kids show written for kids. I want more episodes like For the Man...

As for Batman's constant appearances, that is absolutely fine by me. I would be willing to bet that he is as popular as Superman, or even more popular.

That's why he should be included. Batman is the man. Kevin Conroy is a great voice actor. When Batman isn't around, he's missed. I'm not really a fan of Batman/WW though.

I think there's time for the show to improve, but right now, instead of being as high up there as JL Season 2, it's kind of bottomed out at the Season 1 range.

I'm not happy right now with the show, but I'm hopeful that they will pick it up. Unfortunately, they can't do much about improving Season 1 of JLU now, but given the history of this creative team, Season 2 of JLU will try to address fan criticisms.

[Wayman Tisdale]

.
The other episodes I thought were boring. Of the new heroes shown, I really only liked Captain Atom, and to a lesser extent, Hawk..You didn't enjoy Green Arrow??? WOW, I thought he was portrayed to perfection. I thought the producers should be awfully pleased with his on screen translation. They got his liberalism, humor, grit, stubborness as well as the Neal Adams character design nailed! Give him another looksie this weekend("Fearful Symmetry"), I promise he won't dissapoint. I just hope at some point they say Oliver Queen, just to hear it. I got that same stupid rush when I heard Arthur for the first time to Aquaman in "Terror Beyond" Pt 1.



Aquaman cutting off his hand was the most powerful moment since Darkseid killed Turpin. .Agreed, it continues for me to be the most powerful moment. I watched that episode in a room full of people and ALL their collective jaws hit the floor. Everyone was looking at each other with that "Did I just see what I think I saw?" look. I couldn't believe it was essentially a kid's cartoon, I mean that in a good way.


I'm not a fan of Hawkgirl. Never was. When Hawkgirl kicked butt, I never got pumped up the way I did when other heroes kicked butt. I guess I felt she never truly belonged. That said, I was thrilled with Starcrossed. Of course, I would like to know how the vote went, but that's another issue. I'm glad she is not in the league anymore. I do understand what the writers were trying to do, and that's fine. But there were other characters I liked better...I agree with every word. When Hawkgirl went after someone with her mace I always had the same negative guttural reaction that upstaged her vintage mace scream, followed by a massive eye roll:rolleyes:. I'm telling you it was the damn mace that killed everything for me, it made me think SHE wasn't doing anything and her badass attitude was augmented and empowered by the mace, hence never ever taking her seriously because it never improved.

The vote in Starcrossed would have to go this way I think:

-Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman DEFINITELY wanted her out.

-Flash DEFINITELY wanted her in.

-And that leaves the two X factors being J'onn and GL. It seems as if J'onn totally empathized with the race extinction thing so I think he voted for her to stay. BUT GL in the end probably felt too jaded and burned by her to risk this happening again. I say he voted her out because he probably couldn't stand to look at her everyday and be reminded of the biggest burn in his lifetime. And John is probably across the board sick of people turning on him, who don't have the staunch dedication he has.


I'm not happy right now with the show, but I'm hopeful that they will pick it up. Unfortunately, they can't do much about improving Season 1 of JLU now, but given the history of this creative team, Season 2 of JLU will try to address fan criticisms.Give it a chance "The Crambam" it's only 5 episodes out and they jumped around a lot, out of order. GMahler and I both feel from this week on it's going to rock our collective worlds. You can almost tell by the episode descriptions how great it'll be. I don't want to generate TOOO much overexpectations and hype BUT Bruce Timm and co almost never dissapoint when it comes to entire seasons. A botched episode here and there sure, but not an entire season, no way. We at least owe them that much trust.

[Wayman Tisdale]

like The Terror Beyond a thousand times over. They are not used effectively or relevently. The characterization is all over the place. Just what was wrong about the way the characters assembled in "The Terror Beyond"? Dr. Fate needed Aquaman's trident, Solomon Grundy's soul to evoke a spell to stop Icthultu. so what?

Dr. Fate recruited and cut a deal with Aquaman to rescue Grundy for the sake of Atlantis's preservation. The Justice League stumble on to it brought upon by random attacks believed to be Aquaman on a rampage. Just why is this implausible? They ALL existed in the DCAU, Dr. Fate's a mystic/psychic who could easily track anyone he needed around the globe, what's the problem?

It was a very clever nod to Marvel's Defenders team done with ever loving, touching class! You're way off to bash it. Aquaman explained Atlantean history fused with King Poseidon's plight and Dr. Fate did Solomon Grundy's origin(done brilliantly) ending with the ties to Thanagar and Hawkgirl. How much more characterization could they possibly cram in?

P.S. I mean c'mon Matt comics are about misunderstandings and misguided motivations leading to epic brawls that are just a blast to watch. Without them you might as well just watch the Lifetime channel if all you want is "feelings n crap". I'm sure you've been told this before but your personal expectations are just too high, no one could live up to them. You remind me of the guy that sees Angelina Jolie in Tombraider and says "ehhh she's not that hot, I've seen better!" You also remind me of those two curmudgeoned old dudes from The Muppet Show's balcony pissing on everything like a drunken yard cat.

[ArtificialIdiot]

I have to agree with the Aquaman cutting his hand off thing. My perants were in the room at the time (they don't like the show) and even they took notice and passed shocked comments. It was powerful, definatly powerful.

I was just watching "In Blackest Night"... and it occuored to me how little Hawkgirl used her mace in that episode. I mean, she took out all the Green Lanterns (minus Kilawog, as that would have been insanity!) with her bare hands, made the wise descision of tracking that bug eyed guy to the JL's location and then flew the ship into save them. You'll probably argue that "anybody could have done that", but I just thought it was a good example of Hawkgirl using her own strength and brains as opposed to the mace. :)

Just to get back to Starcrossed, I always assumed Batman would vote to keep her in. If only to keep a closer eye on her. Besides, Batman isn't completely inhuman either... But I suppose the way people voted (except WW, Supes and Flash, obvious there) are opinion anyway. :)

[Wayman Tisdale]

Matt Wilson bashes all JL/JLU episodes. I don't recall him liking any other episodes besides "A Better World" and "FTMWHE."I just added more to the post GMahler look above, I cut off online(didn't want to lose what already wrote) and couldn't finish it so I went back and edited it up with my finished thoughts.

REALLY he only liked THOSE two, not "Enemy Below", not "Starcrossed", not "Twilight"??? Eggh, I've only been here a short time but this guy sounds impossible to please like a high maintenance chick that just sneers at everything.

[Wayman Tisdale]

I was just watching "In Blackest Night"... and it occuored to me how little Hawkgirl used her mace in that episode. I mean, she took out all the Green Lanterns (minus Kilawog, as that would have been insanity!) with her bare hands, made the wise descision of tracking that bug eyed guy to the JL's location and then flew the ship into save them. You'll probably argue that "anybody could have done that", but I just thought it was a good example of Hawkgirl using her own strength and brains as opposed to the mace. :)
No, I appreciate the effort tracking down that example but what are you talking about that bar brawl with GL Corps? Yeah that was an ambitious but far fetched attempt to show she was more than her mace, but the examples seemed to have stopped right there.


Just to get back to Starcrossed, I always assumed Batman would vote to keep her in. If only to keep a closer eye on her. Besides, Batman isn't completely inhuman either... But I suppose the way people voted (except WW, Supes and Flash, obvious there) are opinion anyway. :)
VERY interesting theory on Batman's vote, I personally don't see him wanting to dirty his hands with her, because he's kissed off a lot of people in life at one point or another(Dick Grayson being one of them) BUT your theory is very clever and Batmanesque to the max. You seem to know the character very well with that notion!

[Sue]

Hey dude he was trashing Aquaman, that's family:mad:, what else am I going to do??

His grammatical butchering was like a technical free throw, a KaZaA download, a 3-2 fastball, or a Larry King softball question I couldn't help myself to knocking out of the park. Is it cheap, probably, but it's a reflexive defense towards a character I love to death.Please say you're being sarcastic...


Well, you routinely trash one of my favorite characters, but I don't get personal about it. They're just fictional characters. As much as I like them, it's not worth the effort to get upset or overzealous about it. Relax :sweat:


And so what if his grammar's off? This is just an internet message board, not a senior thesis. If it's such a pain to read, skip over it.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Please say you're being sarcastic :sweat:

Well, you routinely trash one of my favorite characters, but I don't get personal about it. Hell, I don't even get pissed; they're just fictional characters. As much as I like my favorites, it's not worth the effort to get upset about it.

And so what if his grammar's off? This is just an internet message board, not a senior thesis. If it's such a pain to read, skip over it. Calm down, dude :)
OF COURSE I was being sarcastic, I realize message boards don't lend themselves to perfect grammar, nor should they, I'm as guilty as anyone, but with that particular post I might as well have been reading Braille it was so indecipherable. I literally could barely make it out, at least have it somewhat readable that's all I ask.

[Squall]

Too early to make a sound judgement.
No kidding! We're only 5 episodes into what will (hopefully) be a 52-episode run!

[Fone Bone]

No kidding! We're only 5 episodes into what will (hopefully) be a 52-episode run!
I'm quotable. Go me.

[RAINMAN]

The way this series going it be luckly if it reach 39.:sad:

[Nick K.]

The way this series going it be luckly if it reach 39.:sad:

What?

[Wayman Tisdale]

The way this series going it be luckly if it reach 39.:sad:I can't believe by now you don't trust the JLU crew to deliver a rock solid product for now and the next seasons to come. How much of an animated pedigree does it take to instill trust in you? They did BTAS, STAS, BB, TNBA, JL if that's not credibility for absolute trust I don't know what is? They've won awards, they have DC comics using their take on characters in the comics because sometimes it's better than their own creations, how much better does it get? What were your collective scores on the first five episodes so far?

What blows my mind is everytime I read the final tallys for each episode talkback it says like 70% of the posters gave the episode 5 stars(perfect score) YET the negativity towards Justice League Unlimited is astronomical in written threads, it just doesn't add up. I'm as hypercritical as anyone(sans Matt Wilson) and I think Justice League Unlimited at it's very worst is never worse than say 2 1/2 stars because the producers/writers are so damn sharp and consistent they'd never let it dip beneath that level, they're just that good. Even if you find flaws with the episode(which I often do) I still can't think of ONE episode where I didn't find at least five things that the writers gave me to glean positive. And JLU at it's worst is still better than ANY other action animated series on TV and most live action movies/shows as well.

You know what, with all the formulaic crap that's on TV these days, as corny as it sounds we are lucky to have this show and we are equally lucky to have laser sharp, good eggs like Bruce Timm, Dwayne McDuffie, James Tucker, Shaun McGaughlin, Rich Fogel, Stan Berkowitz and sometimes Paul Dini making it! Thanks GUYS one and all!

[Crambam]

<<You didn't enjoy Green Arrow??? WOW, I thought he was portrayed to perfection. I thought the producers should be awfully pleased with his on screen translation. They got his liberalism, humor, grit, stubborness as well as the Neal Adams character design nailed! Give him another looksie this weekend("Fearful Symmetry"), I promise he won't dissapoint. I just hope at some point they say Oliver Queen, just to hear it. I got that same stupid rush when I heard Arthur for the first time to Aquaman in "Terror Beyond" Pt 1. >>

I'm not going to doubt that he was portrayed well, but I'm not really a Green Arrow fan.

<<Agreed, it continues for me to be the most powerful moment. I watched that episode in a room full of people and ALL their collective jaws hit the floor. Everyone was looking at each other with that "Did I just see what I think I saw?" look. I couldn't believe it was essentially a kid's cartoon, I mean that in a good way. >>

That's why I'm generally such a big fan of the work these guys do. They take things to such an amazing level and I wish they would go even further. I'm sure if they could, they would. I don't get why they STOP their shows. They obviously have the ratings and talent to continue. I don't know who the execs that make these choices are, but they need to keep things going.

<<The vote in Starcrossed would have to go this way I think:

-Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman DEFINITELY wanted her out.

-Flash DEFINITELY wanted her in.

-And that leaves the two X factors being J'onn and GL. It seems as if J'onn totally empathized with the race extinction thing so I think he voted for her to stay. BUT GL in the end probably felt too jaded and burned by her to risk this happening again. I say he voted her out because he probably couldn't stand to look at her everyday and be reminded of the biggest burn in his lifetime. And John is probably across the board sick of people turning on him, who don't have the staunch dedication he has. >>

The way I see the vote is this way:

1. Superman and WW are definite nos. No trust.
2. Flash and J'onn are definite yes'. Forgiveness and sympathy.

GL and Batman are wildcards. I have no idea with them. I would actually guess that GL was a yes. My guess is that the only reason he brought the subject up was because she was voted back in, though we'll never know unless b.t. spills it. Batman is the ultimate mystery because a strong argument could be made that he could vote either way--for the exact same reason. Batman would vote no because he doesn't trust her. Batman would also vote yes because he doesn't trust her. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. Batman is one slick guy.

<<Give it a chance "The Crambam" it's only 5 episodes out and they jumped around a lot, out of order. GMahler and I both feel from this week on it's going to rock our collective worlds. You can almost tell by the episode descriptions how great it'll be. I don't want to generate TOOO much overexpectations and hype BUT Bruce Timm and co almost never dissapoint when it comes to entire seasons. A botched episode here and there sure, but not an entire season, no way. We at least owe them that much trust.>>

Don't worry, I'm not writing the show off. To be honest, they can put out 13 complete disasters (or in this case 12 since For the Man was awesome), and I'll come back for more next season. They proved with Season 2 of JL that they can rebound from a bad year effectively. This isn't like Star Trek, where I have no faith in the people in charge. I think I'm pretty fair in judging them. When they are great, they have no peer. When they are bad, it's just ok, but not horrific. I don't agree with all the things they have done, but overall, they are very good at what they do.

[Fone Bone]

Here's how I think the vote went to keep her:

Superman: No

Wonder Woman: No

Flash: Yes

J'onn J'onnz: Yes

Batman: Yes (to keep an eye on her)

Green Lantern: Abstained.

On the other hand Flash's hug held implications to ME that the vote didn't go in her favor. If that's the case I stand by my original picks but change Batman's to a no. Green Lantern would've HAD to abstain for the vote not to be a tie. And I don't think it was.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Here's how I think the vote went to keep her:

Superman: No

Wonder Woman: No

Flash: Yes

J'onn J'onnz: Yes

Batman: Yes (to keep an eye on her)

Green Lantern: Abstained.

On the other hand Flash's hug held implications to ME that the vote didn't go in her favor. If that's the case I stand by my original picks but change Batman's to a no. Green Lantern would've HAD to abstain for the vote not to be a tie. And I don't think it was.
Okay but how is she voted OUT then by your count she wins 3-2 and 1. CAN you actually abstain? I can't see Batman allowing GL to abstain from voting.

[Fone Bone]

Okay but how is she voted OUT then by your count she wins 3-2 and 1. CAN you actually abstain? I can't see Batman allowing GL to abstain from voting.
Remember I changed Batman's vote to a no IF she was kicked out, which seems kinda likely the more I think about it. I COMPLETELY think they would've allowed GL to abstain considering his relationship with her and the fact that if he voted it would likely be a tie.

[Wayman Tisdale]

It's already reached 78, buddy. And if you're counting JLU as another series (which is perfectly acceptable) then you're completely wrong about it not being able to reach 39 episodes. The ratings have been fantastic so far and there are endless amounts of marketing tie-ins...why wouldn't CN greenlight further seasons? It doesn't add up. Really, you need stop with these one-sentence posts. If you're going to say something, at least back it up, even though in this case, you have no justification for your statement. The people working on JLU have always done consistently amazing work, so can't you just give them the benefit of the doubt?I know, I've NEVER routed for ratings points more in my life than during Justice League I check them like I'm checking my own scoring and rebound averages around all-star time. I want EVERYTHING to be successful with this show, toys, on-line games, video games, I guess the kid in me still burns to the point where I never want the show to end, EVER! I know it's unrealistic, wishful thinking but if The Simpsons can essentially go forever, who knows?? Justice League Unlimited has just as many characters and more stories to draw from.


P.S. Another dopey confession, the only other time I remember behaving like this was waaaaay before Pirates of the Caribbean or Sleepy Hollow I used to fervently route for Johnny Depp's box office numbers to explode because his work was so brilliant yet so underrated and ignored by the masses. I would go see his movies 4, 5 or 6 times to try in a lame attempt to pad his box office numbers. I would tell friends and family and whoever to see his films. I would even go to the extent of even if I saw another film I would still pay for the Depp film at the window so he would get the $ credit. I got so sick of Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt and Bruce Willis and all these overrated posers reaping accolades when I knew Johnny Depp was so much more talented and more important to art and pop-culture across the board!

[RAINMAN]

I can see you guys are fans of timm crew and all but you must relize even the best writers start to lose it. And judgeing from this show, they are starting to lose it.

[ArtificialIdiot]

I can see you guys are fans of timm crew and all but you must relize even the best writers start to lose it. And judgeing from this show, they are starting to lose it.

I'm sure a lot of people said that during Justice League season 1 too :rolleyes:

It's only five episodes in, and even those have been muddled up to the point that the showings of certain characters seem more unfair then they actually may be. It seems the order also put the light hearted episodes first, while in original order they were more mixed. I can't help feeling that this is having an impact.

Give Timm and co. a chance before writing them off (in a sentance no less!), I think they have more then earned a little benefit of the doubt from their fans.

[Wayman Tisdale]

I can see you guys are fans of timm crew and all but you must relize even the best writers start to lose it. And judgeing from this show, they are starting to lose it.I'm still waiting for your personal collective scores on the first five. They're trying something new and innovative, god forbid, and the last thing they need is a presumptious blanket judgement on 5 out of order aired episodes. Let them find their voice for crissakes!

I hated the concept of "Kid's Stuff" but it was a zillion times better than anyone else could tackle that concept or I could fathom. And while I didn't think it was above a 3 star ep many people did. "This Little Piggy" wasn't my favorite but it gave me 10 things to bite into including a kick ass, comic book perfecto version of Zatanna, Batman/Wonder Woman intimate dialogue and cameos of characters never seen in animation before like Red Tornado, B'Wana Beast, Phantom Stranger and Elongated Man. If that doesn't warrant praise and balls you really should focus on Yu-Gi-Oh.

My point, time and again I've been proven wrong from my cynicism(sans Hawkgirl) and with the best yet to come you will do the same.

[Dr_Flask]

I can see you guys are fans of timm crew and all but you must relize even the best writers start to lose it. And judgeing from this show, they are starting to lose it.I think the writers have gotten greedy in terms of selling their product(JLU) and in showcasing these all these obscure heroes. It has turned the series into something less-than-average, rushed, and with bad plots.

If 5 eps isn't a good time to judge, than the 6th ep should be used along with the other 5, to form a opinion of JLU. All I know is I've been bored with the series this year, so much that I've switched channels on numerous occasion.
Also, I just don't feel that bad if I missed an episode, anymore. Never figure I would ever say that.

[Nick K.]

Where is Flash? =[

[Fone Bone]

Where is Flash? =[LOL! You are a funny, funny guy.:D

[Killtacular]

I'm sure a lot of people said that during Justice League season 1 too :rolleyes:
We did, and with good reason, because they had lost it then.

[Crambam]

Another thing about that vote is--who says that it has to be a majority to win? For all we know, it has to be unanimous. In a case like this, a lot can be said about making it unanimous.


How can the league work effectively if 1/3 of the league does not want one of the members in the league? The actions of Superman and WW, assuming they voted no, would be affected by having Hawkgirl on the team.

There were only 7 of them. Trust HAS to be there.

[ArtificialIdiot]

We did, and with good reason, because they had lost it then.

But then we got season 2 (although, for the record, I enjoyed season 1 and don't see why people had a problem with it anyway!), which was much better. Proving they hadn't really "lost it" at all. They were just finding their feet, and if I may say, they produced a lot of entertaining stories while they were looking.

Maybe JLU will be the same, maybe not. I just think it's a bit unfair writing the team off after all they have done for us.

[The Master Con]

The series so far has taken, in my opinion, a more commerical route. Purposely trying to appeal to a younger audience, it would seem. Now perhaps this is all just poor circumstance. That Cartoon Network purposely has show all of the series' "lighter" episodes first. I'll wait until the end of the season to make my judgements. But it is still strange that they would waste their few thirteen episodes on storylines such as these.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Another thing about that vote is--who says that it has to be a majority to win? For all we know, it has to be unanimous. In a case like this, a lot can be said about making it unanimous.


How can the league work effectively if 1/3 of the league does not want one of the members in the league? The actions of Superman and WW, assuming they voted no, would be affected by having Hawkgirl on the team.

There were only 7 of them. Trust HAS to be there.Good point "The Crambam"! It may indeed had to have been unanimous in order to vote her out.

Not sure how it works in the super hero world? I remember something similar to this when leader Captain America disbanded the West Coast Avengers with votes and leader Aquaman disbanded the JLA with votes due to lack of dedication back in the mid 80's but I can't remember if that had to be unanimous or not?

[Wayman Tisdale]

I'll wait until the end of the season to make my judgements. But it is still strange that they would waste their few thirteen episodes on storylines such as these.Oh no question, you have some good points, as much as I love the creative team I would not have burned a few of only 13 episodes on some of those storylines, namely "Kid's Stuff" and "This Little Piggy". Though I love seeing Zatanna and the others there are a metric ton of other stories you surely can do rather than turning Wonder Woman into a pig.

But I do wonder if there was a special mandate from the Cartoon Network suits to get lighter in tone or more kidcentric?? I absolutely love seeing all the new characters and a lighter tone has nothing to do with that but I wonder if behind closed doors the suits felt the previous seasons were too dark and edgy leading to the more kid friendly 8:30pm original airings with fluffier plots?

[Killtacular]

But then we got season 2 (although, for the record, I enjoyed season 1 and don't see why people had a problem with it anyway!), which was much better. Proving they hadn't really "lost it" at all.
You can lose something and get it back. And it also depends on "how much" they got back. Much of season 2 was as uninteresting as season 1, but the good episodes of the season were great. The bad episodes, however, were spawned from the worst nightmares of hell's children. I would say JL's good episodes are more a stroke of luck than anything else.

[Revelator]

I would say JL's good episodes are more a stroke of luck than anything else. Congratulations on making a comment that's nearly as patronizing as it is stupid--you're on a roll. A good episode is the result of hard work and committment (and inspiration, which can be dependent on luck). As Timm said in the Modern Masters book, the episodes in season two went through draft after draft as the crew revised and tweaked them. To chalk it primarily up to good luck, as if sound characterization and engrossing plots were just elements that appeared and combined if the wind was blowing the right way, is a snotty insult to the people who worked their asses off to perfect a product that they knew needed improvement. To call Stan Berkowitz's progression from "War World" to "A Better World" mostly the result of good luck is just foul and cretinous. Act as lordly and hard to please as you like, but remember that nobody appreciates idiocy.

[Killtacular]

Congratulations on making a comment that's nearly as patronizing as it is stupid--you're on a roll.No problem.


A good episode is the result of hard work and committment (and inspiration, which can be dependent on luck).No cartoon doesn't have hard work and committment. I'm sure a lot of hard work and effort went into producing Baby Looney Tunes but that doesn't mean its producers should be shielded from negative opinion.


To chalk it primarily up to good luck, as if sound characterization and engrossing plots were just elements that appeared and combined if the wind was blowing the right way, is a snotty insult to the people who worked their asses off to perfect a product that they knew needed improvement.Execpt they didn't perfect it. And JL has had such an on-off, hit-miss, spotty track record of episodes, that it sure does seem like the wind has to be heading in yea direction. All episodes have a general competency in mature dialogue and storytelling, it's just that the stories range from mediocre to terrible, with the occasional out-of-nowhere shining star. I've never felt the characterization was off.. these characters and their VAs have been refined and perfected over the years. The problem is that the characters are just part of the puzzle, a puzzle that JL never really completed. JLU still has another season to work glitches out but only one episode has captured the essence of all that I enjoy in superhero series. It's just not all there yet. :(


To call Stan Berkowitz's progression from "War World" to "A Better World" mostly the result of good luck is just foul and cretinous.Um, how about Stan Berkowitz's episodes pre-Justice League? It's not like he was a newbie. Stan Berkowitz has always been a good writer, and he's probably the best of the JL writers for that fact, AND he's written (if Starcrossed is his and I believe it is) the best episodes of said show. In fact all the writers on JL have long, hard-earned experience in the field, that's what makes JL's crappiness so baffling and perplexing. When they get it right, they REALLY get it right. When they don't, they make my mind melt. Such a sharp contrast. And why I say that it feels like luck.


Act as lordly and hard to please as you like, but remember that nobody appreciates idiocy.Gotcha. I'll keep staying the course.

[Killtacular]

Sorry, Rich Fogel wrote the story for "Starcrossed," not Stan Berkowitz. Part 1 was scripted by Fogel and Parts 2 and 3 were scripted by John Ridley and Dwayne McDuffie.
Okay. Yeah, Starcrossed was Rich Fogel's shining moment on JL. That and Twilight. Both good episodes for the most part. The latter would've been perfect as a JLU episode, though. It so desperately needed to shave off the 22 minutes of New Gods filler.

[nothing]

it's hard for me to remain objective, but my only real complaints are the CGI, some of the music cues, and the open.

Funny Garbage's open for Teen Titans set the definition for a "cool-ass" show intro and sadly, JLU's open feels too conservative and staid for a superhero action show. it's more bland than unlimited and would probably force me to tune out if i didn't know the show.

it seems like WBA could have thrown the production some more cash when it came to post for the music score. it feels cheap and lacks passion or spirit. i don't get chills when i hear an underscore, i feel irritated when that bloody guitar whails.

the CGI is just distracting. it doesn't feel organic and really sticks out like a sore thumb. it may be faster/cheaper (or whatever that book title is), but it just feels wrong.

however, these are minor complaints. overall, i am thrilled beyond words with the angle the series has taken and would love to see is culminate into a S5, 16 episode blow-out that screams for a DTV to tie everything up and say goodbye in a proper fashion and not the typical half-assed way networks end shows. will that happen? i don't know. i do know that what little scraps i've seen for S4 will definitely raise the bar for superhero action/dramas and will be very tough to eclipse.

[Wayman Tisdale]

No problem.

No cartoon doesn't have hard work and committment. I'm sure a lot of hard work and effort went into producing Baby Looney Tunes but that doesn't mean its producers should be shielded from negative opinion..Negative opinion sure but not FORCED and contrived negative opinion meant strictly to bust people's balls! Boy I'm sure your negativity really rocks the JL producer's world, when they see you pissing on everything like a mental patient the effect wears off. When you slam a perfect episode like "The Enemy Below", eventually no one will take it or you seriously and you'll be chalked up as a predictable curmudgeon hell bent on spewing relentless negativity at all costs.


Execpt they didn't perfect it. And JL has had such an on-off, hit-miss, spotty track record of episodes, that it sure does seem like the wind has to be heading in yea direction. All episodes have a general competency in mature dialogue and storytelling, it's just that the stories range from mediocre to terrible, with the occasional out-of-nowhere shining star...Forget about your personal and irrational opinions for a second, go back and tally the total grades of the posters here of the previous 60 episodes(including SS's "A League of Their Own"). Go do an average score and I bet you wouldn't come up with ANY lower than a 3 1/2 to 4 star average which also translates to an A-. These aren't pollyanna, namby pamby fans that praise ANYTHING the JLU staff does, they are hypercritical fans hellbent on seeing the best show possible and the toughest of critics!


P.S. As big a fan as I am of JLA the comic it has a much lower batting average than JL the animated series per installment. The producers jam as much JLA goodness as they possibly can in 22 minutes and it's about time you showed some appreciation and respect. When you factor in JLA Detroit and some hideous runs in the mid 90's JLAU is the far tighter product to it's comic inspiration.

[Nick K.]

Negative opinion sure but not FORCED and contrived negative opinion meant strictly to bust people's balls! Boy I'm sure your negativity really rocks the JL producer's world, when they see you pissing on everything like a mental patient the effect wears off. When you slam a perfect episode like "The Enemy Below", eventually no one will take it or you seriously and you'll be chalked up as a predictable curmudgeon hell bent on spewing relentless negativity at all costs.

Forget about your personal and irrational opinions for a second, go back and tally the total grades of the posters here of the previous 60 episodes(including SS's "A League of Their Own"). Go do an average score and I bet you wouldn't ANY lower than a 3 1/2 to 4 star average which also translates to an A-. These aren't pollyanna, namby pamby fans that praise ANYTHING the JLU staff does, they are hypercritical fans hellbent on seeing the best show possible and the toughest of critics!

Oh burn... :eek:

For the most part Tisdale is correct. Just on the fan thing, you forgot we are awesome!

[SilverKnight]

When you slam a perfect episode like "The Enemy Below", eventually no one will take it or you seriously and you'll be chalked up as a predictable curmudgeon hell bent on spewing relentless negativity at all costs.On this one point, I have to say that I believe "The Enemy Below" was hardly perfect. I enjoyed it, more or less, and had something resembling an interesting plot, but it sported some of the corniest and uncharacteristic dialogue I'd ever heard from the JL. And, given some of the dialogue I've heard from the show, that's pretty damn hard to top.

Green Lantern: "You did it!"
Batman: "No. We did it."

Ugh. Lame.

[Wayman Tisdale]

On this one point, I have to say that I believe "The Enemy Below" was hardly perfect. I enjoyed it, more or less, and had something resembling an interesting plot, but it sported some of the corniest and uncharacteristic dialogue I'd ever heard from the JL. And, given some of the dialogue I've heard from the show, that's pretty damn hard to top.

Green Lantern: "You did it!"
Batman: "No. We did it."

Ugh. Lame.Green Lantern was so impressed and enamored by Batman(first time they ever worked together one on one) being MERELY human and getting that herculean task done thus getting caught up in the moment and forgetting he himself was even there, so he complimented Batman and Batman reminded GL he had a hand in it too. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that and certainly nothing corny.

Atlanteans don't speak like San Francisco hipsters, how the hell did you want them to sound?


P.S. Me saying "The Enemy Below" is perfect is strictly MY opiniion as an Aquaman zealot and my example of perfection for Matt Wilson. You may have said "War World" was perfect I don't know what your idea of perfect is?

[SilverKnight]

Green Lantern was so impressed and enamored by Batman(first time they ever worked together one on one) being MERELY human and getting that herculean task done thus getting caught up in the moment and forgetting he himself was even there, so he complimented Batman and Batman reminded GL he had a hand in it too. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that and certainly nothing corny.Hey, I have no problem with the concept, but the execution of said concept left a lot to be desired. Yes, I'm nitpicking, but pardon me for wanting the Justice League to sound like the "Justice League", and not "Superfriends With a Fresh Coat of Paint". >shrug<


Atlanteans don't speak like San Francisco hipsters, how the hell did you want them to sound?1) Chill, man, there's no need to get snippy. 2) I said I thought some of the dialogue of the Justice League was corny, not the Atlanteans. For the record, I've really liked what I've seen of Aquaman and Atlantis thus far in JL, but in that particular episode, the JL-centric dialogue, to me, was rather mediocre. The joys of opinions. :)


P.S. Me saying "The Enemy Below" is perfect is strictly MY opiniion as an Aquaman zealot and my example of perfection for Matt Wilson. You may have said "War World" was perfect I don't know what your idea of perfect is?I gotcha. Again, I had no problem with that. Just felt like bringing it up; couldn't resist throwing my hat into the ring. :D

[Wayman Tisdale]

Hey, I have no problem with the concept, but the execution of said concept left a lot to be desired. Yes, I'm nitpicking, but pardon me for wanting the Justice League to sound like the "Justice League", and not "Superfriends With a Fresh Coat of Paint". >shrug<

1) Chill, man, there's no need to get snippy. 2) I said I thought some of the dialogue of the Justice League was corny, not the Atlanteans. For the record, I've really liked what I've seen of Aquaman and Atlantis thus far in JL, but in that particular episode, the JL-centric dialogue, to me, was rather mediocre. The joys of opinions. :)

I gotcha. Again, I had no problem with that. Just felt like bringing it up; couldn't resist throwing my hat into the ring. :DNo problem man:) , I was just jousting a bit defending my land. You are every bit entitled to yours and I didn't want to come off as snippy but just standing my ground on an episode I deeply love. And like "GMahler" so accurately stated in another thread I hate to do it just ONE sentence and out, I actually like to back my opinions up with a lil proof telling you why.

[Krichton]

The show so far has been ok. The last 3 standalone episodes not including the most recent one which I have no seen yet have had their moments but nothing spectacular and herein lies the problem. There are only 13 episodes this season. Doing episodic stories like this is a waste of time. Because there's only 13 episodes there should be one cohesive serialized story running thru each episode. An epic seasonal arc that ties together all the loose ends leading up to it in a big two part finale. What we're getting each week is the occasional cheap thrill. That's it. There's no satisfaction. If this season was much longer I'd say go knock yourself out and create some silly stories here and there but there simply isn't enough time for that!

[Fone Bone]

Boy I'm sure your negativity really rocks the JL producer's world, when they see you pissing on everything like a mental patient the effect wears off.


.
Was this comment really nessecary, Wayman? I spent four horrible years in a State hospital and I sure didn't go around pissing on things. To be locked up in a hospital is a horrible experience for most people and comments like that just hurt. I still have nightmares. I understand you are zealous about the JL cartoon but seriously, please have some respect in the future.:sad:

[Legionaire]

Couple of random comments:

To Matt Wilson--keep 'em coming. I don't always (or even often) agree with your assesments, but applaud the creativity you use in presenting them. You obviously like poking your stick in the bee's nest. You should know that you aren't the only one who enjoys seeing the bees fly around in anger and disbelief :p. You generally make your points in a coherent fashion and that's about all I require of a good debate. If you happen to be a bit...artful in your criticism, I'm OK with that.

Several people have defended the season so far by noting that "CN" screwed up the episode order. But I recall b.t. stating on one of the threads that his team was making the final decisions on airing order. If so, comments on order are fair game.

I doubt there was a mandate (or at least one that was complied with) about making the episodes more kid-friendly. Not after FTMWHE and Fearful Symmetry. I certainly didn't like Kids and This Little Piggy all that much, and am not going to let b.t. and co hide behind the network.

As I suspected, Fearful Symmetry was a much better episode and gives me hope for the rest of the season. But I'm still a bit worried about next week, despite the Mordru appearance. If the humor flows naturally from events, that'll be fine. But in some cases this season it's been the reason for events, and that's a letdown for me.

One thing I noticed last night. After watching, I was struck by a definite hunger for the next episode, more so than I remember after any of the Season 2 shows. But I was *not* hit with a strong urge to watch it again (even though I have already). After the best of the Season 2 shows I wanted to immediately see it again.

Not sure what this means about the quality of JLU vs. Season 2. May be that I'm anxious to see more new characters (fanboy reaction) as well as more on this conspiracy-type plot. May also be that a half hour is too little, and I got used to the full-hour premieres on CN for Season 2.

[RAINMAN]

I'm still waiting for your personal collective scores on the first five. They're trying something new and innovative, god forbid, and the last thing they need is a presumptious blanket judgement on 5 out of order aired episodes. Let them find their voice for crissakes!

I hated the concept of "Kid's Stuff" but it was a zillion times better than anyone else could tackle that concept or I could fathom. And while I didn't think it was above a 3 star ep many people did. "This Little Piggy" wasn't my favorite but it gave me 10 things to bite into including a kick ass, comic book perfecto version of Zatanna, Batman/Wonder Woman intimate dialogue and cameos of characters never seen in animation before like Red Tornado, B'Wana Beast, Phantom Stranger and Elongated Man. If that doesn't warrant praise and balls you really should focus on Yu-Gi-Oh.

My point, time and again I've been proven wrong from my cynicism(sans Hawkgirl) and with the best yet to come you will do the same.
And just who would want to see a nutcase talking to animals? As for the other 3 their apparence was pointless and silly. If their gonna have char form the comic showing up, give them a good reason for being there instaed of looking for a pig?

[Killtacular]

When you slam a perfect episode like "The Enemy Below",
Perfect? Ha ha, that's...interesting.

My favorite scene from The Enemy Below?

"Aquaman's about to die, if only a dues ex machina could save him!"
"Hi, I'm Batman. I'm here to save the day somehow and then leave for the majority of the episode. I'm Batman."


These aren't pollyanna, namby pamby fans that praise ANYTHING the JLU staff does,
Well I wouldn't call them namby pamby, that's going quite too far, but...


P.S. Me saying "The Enemy Below" is perfect is strictly MY opiniion as an Aquaman zealot and my example of perfection for Matt Wilson. You may have said "War World" was perfect I don't know what your idea of perfect is?
I never said War World was perfect. I hate War World. All of season one of JL just felt like they weren't sure of themselves, or how epic the stories should be. They found their footing in the second season but several of the stories felt more like James Bond than Justice League. I'd prefer more character-based stories like For the Man Who Has Everything. Starcrossed, despite being about a war, was largely a character piece, it explored relationships, it showed the league as being vulnerable. I want more stuff like that. Instead of B-movie crap like Maid of Honor. :I

[ArtificialIdiot]

Hey! There was nothing that bad about Maid of Honour! The only thing it could have done with was a lot less padding (would have been PERFECT for JLU!) but other then that, it was pretty good!

But then, I just love Vandal Savage, so I guess I'm a bit biased. :)

[Killtacular]

A lot of episodes would've been better as 22 minute stories, if you think about it. It seems like if you shave off all the unnecessary side stuff from each JL episode, the stories shrink down from 44 minutes to.. 29-30. I mean get rid of all the New Gods stuff in Twilight and it would've been no problem containing it in a half-hour. It would've been tighter, more hardcore, more exhilirating. Only A Dream would've worked better in media res.. aka, just chop off Part 1, and start right with the JL team being trapped in dreams.. then insert a few very brief scenes that set up the villain that way.... get rid of all the stupid "jailbreak" crap whose only purpose was to throw in Superman and Batman villains as an act of handjobbing the fans. Eclipsed would've been a perfect 22 minute comedy episode. I don't mean to compile a list but.. the switch to 22 minute episodes was wise of JLU, I'll say that much.

[Mysteryinfoman]

the CGI is just distracting. it doesn't feel organic and really sticks out like a sore thumb. it may be faster/cheaper (or whatever that book title is), but it just feels wrong.
yeah the robot in yesterday's episode looked bad, but wonder women's invisable ship or plane looked nice. just wondering, WBA does the CG right, is it possible for another company to do it? (has that ever been done before)

On the comments of S1 and S2, I must agree that when JL has a good episode it's real good but when it does not, it fails. To me I like S2 better than S1, but that's me.


i do know that what little scraps i've seen for S4 will definitely raise the bar for superhero action/dramas and will be very tough to eclipse.
That's good to hear, how much have you seen of S4. :p Also a DTV, I remember hearing one was in the works, did it move on from development or something?

[Crimson]

I was struck by a definite hunger for the next episode, more so than I remember after any of the Season 2 shows. But I was *not* hit with a strong urge to watch it again (even though I have already). After the best of the Season 2 shows I wanted to immediately see it Same here. So far, the only episode of JLU that I have watched more than once is FTMWHE, which I watched 4 times during the course of the week. The rest, despite having them digitally recorded, I have had no desire yet to rewatch.

So far, I consider JLU to be a big drop below the enjoyment level of even S1, which so many seemed to consider deeply flawed. We're now 6 episodes into the new series, and I remain strongly underwhelmed. I keep seeing people say "just wait, it will get better" ... but why should we have to wait? Did the creative team purposely make the early episodes mediocre, so the later ones seem better in comparison. :rolleyes:

At this point the only things keeping me from bailing out of the series is the increased screen time for Wonder Woman (my favorite character) and the expectations raised by FTMWHE that this series will eventually rise above its current mediocre level. By I'm starting to think Matt Wilson is right, and that great episode was a fluke. Fire at a target often enough, and you're bound to hit it once.

[Squall]

So far, I consider JLU to be a big drop below the enjoyment level of even S1, which so many seemed to consider deeply flawed. We're now 6 episodes into the new series, and I remain strongly underwhelmed. I keep seeing people say "just wait, it will get better"...
I have every confidence that JLU will get better, much better, over time. Right now, these early episodes are just setting stuff up for later payoff. :eek: :D

That being said, my biggest complaint about the show is the random usage of B- and C-level heroes & villians, without explanations of any kind. I could have done without appearances by B'wana Beast, Hawk & Dove, or Blockbuster at all, personally...

[jadrax]

That being said, my biggest complaint about the show is the random usage of B- and C-level heroes & villians, without explanations of any kind. I could have done without appearances by B'wana Beast, Hawk & Dove, or Blockbuster at all, personally...I think Blockbster is a cameo done right, he shows up for 2 seconds when the league needs to be fighting something. No depth is actually needed because hes not actually part of the plot, its just a fanboy nod.

Hawk and Dove and B'wana beast on the otherhand, there actually protagonists in the plot, and yet are so shallow its almost impossable to care about them.

[Wayman Tisdale]

Was this comment really nessecary, Wayman? I spent four horrible years in a State hospital and I sure didn't go around pissing on things. To be locked up in a hospital is a horrible experience for most people and comments like that just hurt. I still have nightmares. I understand you are zealous about the JL cartoon but seriously, please have some respect in the future.:sad:OOOOOPS:o , sorry dude, I appreciate your honesty! I'm sure it was horrible:sweat: , you probably didn't have Dr Harlene Quinzell treating you either and I hear the food in there really sucks it makes airplane food seem like a 4 star restaurant. Go have a big ol pepperoni pizza or Chinese food spread on me, you can use my toonzone account;) !

The term "mental patient" though usually isn't meant as a term of endearment can sometimes be a lil complimentary. Like Dennis Rodman, we used to say "he rebounds like a mental patient", of course he's a loon in many, many other ways but that was meant as a compliment. But in your case don't dwell on it, everyone(including myself) has had dark periods where they bark at the moon or crawl into a hole from a sweeping depression. The word "normal" is highly overrated and so you barked at the moon few times, we all do, that's how we know we're alive. You become stronger for it and grow and I'm sure you are stronger and a better person, more alert and savvy to the human condition!

I don't care who you are no one can act normal 24/7 THAT to me isn't normal. Whenever I see a guy that's toooo composed or tooo "normal" that always scares me more than someone that shows genuine emotions. Like Howard Dean, GOD FORBID the guy gets excited, shows some enthusiasm, but NO, America can't handle it, they have to lambaste him because as a politician he's TOO excited, total bullcrap!

To quote pop-rock sensation Seal: "OH we're never gonna SURVIIIIIIIVE unless we get a little CRAAAZZZYY!"

[Fone Bone]

I can't tell if you're patronizing me or not. Let's just say that because of stigma mental illness is made a big deal by people who are afraid of the idea of having an illness in the brain. Most mentally ill folks, you couldn't even tell there was something wrong even if you knew them for awhile. It's easy for people to assume every person with mental illness is as unstable as some homeless people muttering to themselves. Seriously, if a person shows no outward symptoms how are you supposed to know they are mentally ill in the first place?

[Revelator]

Couple of random comments:
If the humor flows naturally from events, that'll be fine. But in some cases this season it's been the reason for events, and that's a letdown for me.

Well, I'm glad you're speaking for yourself, though your opinion is far from an isolated one. For everything there is a time and place, and that's especially true in an anthology format, which JLU is definitely maintaining. It seems to me that many other people are trying to judge what we've seen of JLU as indicative of a general arc, while the truth is that we're dealing with a highly differentiated series of episodes whose common elements will eventually be utilized for a story that builds off of them--a situation far more pronounced than the similar one in season 2.
So I'm confident in saying there will be episodes where humor is the reason for events (what's wrong with that? we're allowed to have a laugh on the league), episodes where humor will flow from the events (the writer for "The Greatest Story" is the one behind "Legends"), episodes that will be practically humorless and episodes that will be intensely dramatic.
Anyone who speaks about JLU in general without having seen all 13 episodes has the same credibility as someone who reviews a book of short interlinked stories without having read half the stories. That's why I regard this entire thread as being premature. After having seen the entire season, episodes like "This Little Piggy" will have an entirely different context. That much seems obvious.

[Icer]

Too much Wonder Woman, it's like she is the main star of the show.
The Batman/Wonder Woman relationship was dumb in the comics, and the same applies for the show. Get it over with, since you know it will never last.

Humor in two episodes really seemed forced and geniunely not funny, Kids Stuff & Piggy.

I'm very disappointed in the lack of Flash, extremely would be putting it lightly.

So far, JLU looked great after two episodes but since then it's been mediocre.

[Wayman Tisdale]

I can't tell if you're patronizing me or not. Let's just say that because of stigma mental illness is made a big deal by people who are afraid of the idea of having an illness in the brain. Most mentally ill folks, you couldn't even tell there was something wrong even if you knew them for awhile. It's easy for people to assume every person with mental illness is as unstable as some homeless people muttering to themselves. Seriously, if a person shows no outward symptoms how are you supposed to know they are mentally ill in the first place?Not patronizing in the least, much more empathizing! Sure stigma can be attached to mental illness but what is mental illness really? Is it a bad turn in life, is it strictly a chemical imbalance, is it a politically incorrect mindset that doesn't bow to popular opinion, is it pushing the envelope and barking at the moon, is it a failure to adhere to capitilism and it's rules thus ending up homeless? It's very arbitrary, is it not? Who is ANYONE to say what "crazy" is because if you probed into ANYONE'S subconscious to the core you would almost always find things that the general public would construe as "crazy" in that person. We ALL have our dark secrets that we are afraid to divulge to our peers for the fear of being considered a "mental patient".

It also depends on who you surround yourself with. I'm sure if tomorrow Flea from the Red Hot Chilipeppers went to work for Price Waterhouse his eccentricites suddenly wouldn't seem so cool it then be considered "crazy" by his stiff, boring, buttoned up colleagues. It's only because Flea can make a massive living with that persona that he isn't considered "crazy" or a "mental patient". And besides these days being a great bassist just isn't enough, Flea had to seperate himself from the pack and "crazy" is the best way. I mean how many 42 year olds do you know that run around with their shirt off speaker diving for a living?

[Crow]

I was wondering when the inevitable was going to happen and the serial criticisers would stop thumping the 'give JLU a chance' horse and pick up old habits.

There's a few topics in this thread that are quite interesting but I'll stay away because if I contribute to them I'll get unintentional JLU spoilers.

[Mister Intensity]

It seems that the team behind JLU is being influence by Teen Titans. I'm not saying that all of a sudden JLers are adopting "anime" expressions and mannerisms but that JLU is telling more a variety of stories than Justice League ever did. One of the strengths of Teen Titans is that each episode has an unique tone. While there is an underlying zaniness underneath each episode goes from pure comedy to pure tragedy to nonsense to a children's parable and everything in between. JLU is taking a similiar anthology approach with an underlying sense of superhero drama, instead of facing an epic threat every episode. This allows for more quiet episodes, comedy, whimsy, as well as epic superhero drama.

One thing I always admired about Teen Titans is while they make things appealing to fandom they don't forget that the fan community only make up less than 5% of the overall audience. In many ways, while there are "Easter Eggs" for longtime fans (the latest of which is the Jason Todd reference), Teen Titans comes off as "anti-fanboy" to its credit. They don't forget they are making a television show by taking what works best for television from the comics adding some made for television approaches and discarding the rest to make something that works for television. Sometimes I wish that JLU would take a similiar "anti-fanboy" approach.

Nevertheless, you have to give the JLU team credit for trying something different from the previous two seasons and the other series. Hee are impressions of the series so far:

Opening Credits: Very controversal but you know what I like it. It reminds me of those "next on..." teasers that used to preceed many television shows but they sprinkle them into the credits. There's a reason why they do it that way, and it has a lot to do with the reason why opening credits have disappeared from a lot of television shows, people tend to turn the television during the credits, thus losing potential viewers. By adding something fresh to the credits every week it gives the viewer something different to watch. I love the Teen Titans theme song and I hope they never lose but I wish they would change the opening credit sequence; with JLU there's a freshness with the upcoming attractions aspect. I hope that we don't lose the "coming up" aspect of the credits next season just because a few fans on the Internet complained about it. If the ever-changing credits prevent viewers from turning the channel then the credits have suceeded.

Music: I hated the opening music at first but I got used it and now I enjoy it. I prefer a different sound for the score but since hard rock guitars is now the norm for American action adventure animation then who am I to argue with that. Although I love the freewheeling musical style of Teen Titans, it creates more of a mood.

Episodes: Honestly, I have a mixed opinion, although I loved the last two episodes. It makes sense that the on-air order of the episodes are different from Production Order. I really don't think people would complain so much if they didn't know the Production Order beforehand since JLU is an episodic series and other than "Initiation" being first the air order of the first six episodes didn't matter. In the Production Order "Kid Stuff" is followed by "This Little Piggy" and I doubt that the audience would like two light-hearted episodes to follow one after the other. I like that a "heavy" episode is followed by a more light-hearted one, it does release the tension.

"Initiation" did a good job of establishing the premise of JLU. They didn't waste time going over "Starcrossed," it just told us we're doing things a different way. The JL is going to take a larger in coordinating the actions of metahumans. The pilot did its job plain and simple.

The next three episodes were big disappointments to me. "FTMWHE" should have spent more time on Clark's fantasy and less time on Wonder Woman vs. Mongul. The fantasy lacked the sinister undercurrent of Moore's original fantasy. The fantasy was too idyllic, instead of the "be careful what wish for, you just may get it" undercurrent of Moore's original fantasy. it made the Black Rose that much more dangerous. I also felt Moore's political message was that much more effective, although I understand why it was excised. Besides, the fantasy was too Silver Age Superman and the DCAU is a different more Earthbound character.

"Kids Stuff" threaded dangerous ground. I was too busy thinking about what about all the kids who died when the adults disappeared. Who would take care of the babies, drive the vehicles, perform operations, etc.? It was too loosely plotted and left too many questions. If they wanted to do something more whisical they should have gone all out and be much more zanier that all pretensions of reality is thrown out of the window. However, "Kids Stuff" was much too grounded to work as something surreal thus it really didn't succeed on any level with me.

"Hawk and Dove" isn't really worth talking about. "This Little Piggy" is the first episode that worked for me. One thing that sticks out is the casualness of the characters. Although the situation is absurd, the main characters talked to each other like real people, something that Justice League usually lacked even at its best. Batman and Wonder Woman's opening exchange at the opening of the episode was the most convincing exchange they ever had. I never bought the "Batman/Wonder Woman" relationship but that was the first time I bought into it. It was the first time they talked like friends who are fond of each other rather as "two characters put together because the fans demanded it." Dini also placed the Justice League within its own reality by subtly referencing experiences and adventures that took place on and off screen. Sometimes you get the sense that the JLers just wait for the next adventure when the episode is over but Dini convincing show that they have many adventures that we have never seen, like an encounter with Justice. Also he referenced continuity through a character's experiences rather than referencing events. The relationship conversation could refer to John/Shayria, Dick/Barbara, Bruce/Barbara and/or any number of interteam relationships Bruce has seen. The fact that magic within the DCAU was explained and that the light tone was well established made the events of the episode easier to take. I could say more but I save that for later.

Characters: I like how they establish the character personalities rather than the character background. Most people don't explain their origins in the middle of a project. Most people don't find out the origin of their advesary within the midst of doing their work, so why should we expect back stories of every character that we see unless there is a contextual reason to learn it. What we do get is the distinctive personality of each character. Some are likable, others aren't. JLU is doing a good job of establishing the personalities of the new characters. Even "Hawk and Dove" had enjoyable character interactions. We get to know the personality, powers, and abilities of each character that's introduced for the most part. What else do we need to know?

One note, it seems that they are trying to correct a mistake they shouldn't have made in the first place, establishing Wonder Woman's origins. Her introduction in Secret Origins left more questions than answers and it seems like they have been trying to play catch up ever since. Big mistake. Wonder Woman should have been introduced with a stronger foundation and its sad that it is only know they are rectifying that. Making the Amazons unlikeable in Season One didn't help matters. Its one thing to create a society that has no use for men, its another thing to make them man hating shrews. Wonder Woman and the Amazons are the elephant in the room and the creative team don't quite know how to handle it. They are trying to go around it but I think its better if they handle it head on instead going around the problem and handling it through distractions (like the Bats/WW relationship). I do hope they resolve this before the series ends.

I have more to say but this post is already too long so I'll stop for now.

Mister Intensity

[Mackaybear]

Well I think we just got out first real view of the subplot for this season. The govt/business conspiracy trying to counter the League for their own reasons.

I wondered how the DCAU really trusted Superman and by extension the League so much after the events of "Legacy". Now we know the "power broker" types haven't at all. So things have taken a turn into some real serious territory.

Now if could only get the Flash back on a relatively regular basis?

[Style]

Anyone who speaks about JLU in general without having seen all 13 episodes has the same credibility as someone who reviews a book of short interlinked stories without having read half the stories. That's why I regard this entire thread as being premature.
Oy, it just seems like I can't win. Part of the reason I came up with this 5 episode system was as a compromise to the fact that people were initiallly trying to judge the merits of the whole series on just the very first episode.
That I deemed profoundly unfair so I suggested they stick around for four more to get a better feel for the show. I certainly wasn't going to be so presumptuous to say they should stick around for the whole season if they really weren't enjoying themselves at five eps in.

But hey this thread is all about opinion, so I'll encourage it. I also don't presume that we've seen everything the series is capable of after just five episodes. If I had used this system on Teen Titans when it was first on, (I hadn't devised it yet,) I sure wouldn't have seen that show at it's best, but I still would have seen some great moments that would keep me on board.

To update my evaluation a bit, I do appreciate that the character set ups for Supergirl and Green Arrow did actually end up paying off in "Fearful Symetry," they were used well and I was glad they had set them up in "Initiation." But I'm still unsure if the unlimited aspect of the show is such a good idea. Would it have been better if Green Arrow and Supergirl were the only two new ongoing characters in the series and Question had a guest shot? I guess I'll have to wait and see.

But, I wonder, when I set up a "preliminary series evaluation" thread for "The Batman" after five eps, will anyone blast me for it being premature?

[Sue]

OF COURSE I was being sarcastic, I realize message boards don't lend themselves to perfect grammar, nor should they, I'm as guilty as anyone, but with that particular post I might as well have been reading Braille it was so indecipherable. I literally could barely make it out, at least have it somewhat readable that's all I ask.Phew! That's encouraging. I was worried for a second there ;)

[maxnugget]

But, I wonder, when I set up a "preliminary series evaluation" thread for "The Batman" after five eps, will anyone blast me for it being premature?

Though it's perhaps easy to play off the distaste people here have for that show, not to mention the reviews apparently suggesting the series will be a trainwreck, the answer to your question is STILL a resounding YES. And the fact that you or others may be right in predicting/prejudging (not judging) the horridness of "The Batman" does not diminish the fact that what such a thread would be doing is still prejudging.

To expect a new creative team to come charging in, realize all the faults and drawbacks of their creative decisions as early on as the first few episodes of a series, and churn out gold from the first episode they make (or the fifth, etc) is ridiculous. Even the mighty Timm shows did not begin in the same chiseled form that they evolved into. BTAS improved and evolved over time, so did STAS, BB, and JL. Did BTAS have a more impressive vault out of the opening gate ("On Leather Wings")? Hell yes (if "Bat in the Belfry" reviews are any indication). But the main benefit to that was that the creators of the Timm-verse were successful enough to have the luxury of sticking around for many seasons and evolve the craft of the show(s).

The team behind "The Batman" may not be the favorite A-list creative people we're used to seeing, but they are people who are in this industry because they are creatively talented in different capacities. The show seems like it will be around for at least 2 seasons because of a successful toy line, regardless of the quality of the show. Two seasons means they'll have plenty of time to try to improve the show and find their niche. Plenty of successful shows began as underwhelming endeavors ("Justice League" included).

I think anyone who regards themselves as an artist or creative endeavorist would agree that most things that become good often don't start out that way. It's not an overnight process, it's a long process of continued refinement and honing of the craft.

Regarding the five-episode system: I do recall back during the "Initation" premiere when you first were recommending that people give it five episodes instead of just judging the premiere, so I recognize, given your intent, that it's somewhat silly for others to criticize you for trying to judge a season based on five episodes, since it was that logic that prompted you to make the "five-episode" suggestion in the first place. But I do perhaps question whether the creation and direction of this thread (by you and everyone else who posts here) is an indication that you and/or the other posters have lost sight of the original intent behind your "system": the intent, as I see it, was not to take five episodes to form a judgment of the season -- it was to give the show five episodes before making the decision to stop watching the show (and, of course, this applies only to people who dislike the show and the DCAU to such an extent that they would literally not stick around to see the rest of the season).

At the same time, to those people who are going to decide at any point in the run of the series to make a prejudgment and potentially stop watching, whether it's JLU or "The Batman" or anything else, there is no win-win situation. As Revelator said, if you don't watch the whole season, your opinion of the show has no value (both as it affects your decision to watch or not watch, as well as when you tell someone else that "JLU? I saw it, that show sucks"). Sort of like the ridiculousness of how many of those self-righteous republicans you see interviewed on TV who try to convince us their opinions on issues are correct and that they are wiser than the next guy, will pass condemning, critical commentary on "Fahrenheit 9/11," and then (only after the interviewer bothers to ask them) says that they HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN THE FILM. Politics aside, if I make a film and someone that didn't even watch it starts telling other people how much my film sucks, launching criticisms of it that suggest they are knowledgeable about and have seen my film, and don't even make the disclaimer that their opinion is not based on an actual viewing of the film, I would rip their head off if I ever met them face-to-face.

Anyway...it's a mixed bag. JLU season 3 could end up being as "bad" (in the eyes of someone who doesn't like it) as the first five episodes, and if they stop watching after the S3 finale, season 4 might have thrilled them and they'll never know. Same with "The Batman"...it might turn off a huge base of potential viewers during its first season before becoming an enjoyable product in season 2. If you walk away from a TV show (and obviously people HAVE TO sometimes...the premiere of Jason Alexander's post-Seinfeld sitcom was trash, and I wasn't going to waste any more of my life sticking around to see if the show got better as the season progressed)...if you walk away, though, you run the risk of missing out on something that may get better after you turn the channel. And that's what it really comes down to: You can't have it both ways, leaving half-way through a season with the peace of mind that you're not missing out on something good. Five episodes is better than one because, as you said, there's a better chance of getting "hooked" in five episodes than one, but it's still, as always, a gamble.

So I guess the moral of my rant is that the only people who really ought to be in this thread are the people that are actually considering NOT watching the rest of the season (or who are trying to persuade in either direction the people who are considering not watching the rest of the season). For the rest of us (like me and anyone else who's going to basically watch anything made by Bruce Timm and most anything Batman-related, or who likes JLU and eagerly awaits new episodes every Saturday evening), this thread is not relevant, because if we know we're going to watch the rest of the season, I have no real need or motivation to try to form an accurate preliminary judgment about it.

[Legionaire]

Anyone who speaks about JLU in general without having seen all 13 episodes has the same credibility as someone who reviews a book of short interlinked stories without having read half the stories. That's why I regard this entire thread as being premature. After having seen the entire season, episodes like "This Little Piggy" will have an entirely different context. That much seems obvious.I have to disagree. Yes, you can't completely evaluate the merit of a season (or a book of short stories, or the White Album) based on only 5 samples.

But if 2 of the 5 are C-, one is a B-, and two are B+ or A, there ain't no way the season is going to get an A grade, no matter how good the coming eps will be. If this was a novel, and episodes were chapters, it might be different. But as you (and I, and others) have pointed out, this is an anthology, and the stories are loosely connected at best.

Not only are the inferior episodes diminishing the overall season quality, they're also a waste of opportunity, in a season with such a limited number of episodes. And that's perhaps the greater disappointment.

[Revelator]

[QUOTE=Legionaire] I have to disagree.

Backatcha though.

Yes, you can't completely evaluate the merit of a season (or a book of short stories, or the White Album) based on only 5 samples.

Glad to see that the main point is granted.

But if 2 of the 5 are C-, one is a B-, and two are B+ or A, there ain't no way the season is going to get an A grade, no matter how good the coming eps will be.

Your post presents your subjective rankings as objective, so I'll indulge in the same fallacy and say that if one of the five in this anthology is a C- adventure, one is a B adventure story, another an A- mystery and two others B comedies, than the season...well, I still can't withold judgment, since in my view a masterpiece in a season can override memory of a dud. I'd give JL season two an A despite my desire to never see Eclipsled again, and despite my indifference to an episode like Hearts and Minds. I can forgive a few dull gems if the jewels in front of the crown are really brilliant.

If this was a novel, and episodes were chapters, it might be different. But as you (and I, and others) have pointed out, this is an anthology, and the stories are loosely connected at best.

And in an anthology the variety of the stories is meant to color and contextualize the whole. Is "Wild Honey Pie" much of a Beatles song? No, but in between the heavier numbers it's a lovely throwaway, just as "This Little Piggy" is more pleasurable when bracketed between the drabness of "Hawk and Dove" and the paranoia of "Fearful Symmetry." In an anthology not every piece has to be of uniform quality for the collection to work as a whole, and sometimes it works better that way--after all, not every story in Dubliners is as devastating as "The Dead," and even then I wouldn't cut the duller stories out.
And since we have yet to see how the rest of the season will play out, you have no real authority in determining just how loosely connected these episodes will be. It may be that the rest of the season will be heavy to the extent of making one glad for those comedic episodes. And maybe not. No one can say except for the producers.

Not only are the inferior episodes diminishing the overall season quality, they're also a waste of opportunity, in a season with such a limited number of episodes. And that's perhaps the greater disappointment.

Had season three essentially been one long story I might share such complaints, but I mainly don't, especially since we have another season wherein finetuning will certainly occur. JL didn't really hit its stride till season two, and the massive changes for season three mean that teething troubles and malformed episodes can be expected. But I shall continue to hold off from predictions and judgments about the rest of the season, until I can view it as a whole, rather than prognosticating and judging based on piecemeal bits.

[Crambam]

I'll go into more detail in the appropriate thread, but Fearful Symmetry still didn't quite do it for me. I thought it was better than the light hearted recent weeks, but overall, the series is just off. This episode could have benefited from more of the main heroes--especially Superman.

While recent episodes were C/C+/B- range, this one is a B.

For the Man is the only episode that gets an A from me this season. The season is now about half done. I know these writers are good enough to turn it around at any time, so on any given week, they could hit a homerun, but I'm still not thrilled with this style of featuring the lesser heroes.

The episode didn't really have any moments that pissed me off, but it was just missing something.

[Mister Intensity]

Five episodes is more than enough to determine your feelings for a show. I usually make my judgment after three.

Mister Intensity

[thanos28542]

I moved recently so unfortunetaly it took me a while to get my cable up so I missed the 1st 3 episodes. I caught up w/Hawk & Dove , This little piggy & Fearful Symmetry. I understand that "For the man,etc" is the best episode so far. I disagree w/all the people complaining that the big 7 are not in every episode. As a long time DC fan, I'm thrilled that JLU is showcasing as many different heroes as they can! Let's face it people, this show is not gonna last forever( we wish it would) & once the final episode of JLU airs,& yrs from now when we're watching our taped episodes, a bunch of you are gonna complain why they never had this hero in it or why was so & so never in the DCAU? Well this is our chance to see Red Tornado or B'wana beast in animated form! I still have high hopes that we'll still see Captain Marvel (Shazam) make an appearance in JLU before all is said & done! I still wanna see Hawkman again! I love the Flash & hope he appears in a full episode soon as well but I've seen him during the 1st & 2nd seasons & now I wanna see Black Canary & others we haven't seen yet in action! I thought it was awesome to finally see the Question in animated form & for an entire episode & not just a quick 3 sec cameo. Who knows? Maybe this JLU will spin off into an "Adventures of the DCAU series" where we'll see even more of our favorite heroes & villians in brand new adventures! IMOP I think you all should just watch the entire season of JLU before bashing it & saying it sucks! 5 freakin episodes is not enough to judge a whole season by!

[Legionaire]

[QUOTE=Legionaire] I have to disagree.

Backatcha though.

It's clear we have some areas of agreement, and some where we'll probably never agree.

I'm operating under the premise of this thread: "give us your sense of how the season is after the first 5 episodes". Both of us agree that one can't completely evaluate an entire season after only 5. But I'm OK with giving my opinion on those 5 as a start, and you're clearly not. That's fine.

[By the way, your argument could just as easily be applied to "how good a job has President Bush done in 3.5 years?". No matter your political leanings, or your feelings about his accomplishments, I could claim that you can't have a valid opinion of a President until his term is over. Do you really think that's true?]

I do not like several of the eps so far, and that will diminish the entire season for me (despite your well-reasoned and worded rebuttal). I'd be amazed if I was "wowed" by the season as a whole after seeing the first five. Stranger things have happened, but I'm not optimistic.

That does not mean that I think it will be a "bad" season, or that upcoming episodes--as a group--won't be better. I'm confident they will be better. So I'm looking forward to continued enjoyment of the series and season.

[Wayman Tisdale]

I moved recently so unfortunetaly it took me a while to get my cable up so I missed the 1st 3 episodes. I caught up w/Hawk & Dove , This little piggy & Fearful Symmetry. I understand that "For the man,etc" is the best episode so far. I disagree w/all the people complaining that the big 7 are not in every episode. As a long time DC fan, I'm thrilled that JLU is showcasing as many different heroes as they can! Let's face it people, this show is not gonna last forever( we wish it would) & once the final episode of JLU airs,& yrs from now when we're watching our taped episodes, a bunch of you are gonna complain why they never had this hero in it or why was so & so never in the DCAU? Well this is our chance to see Red Tornado or B'wana beast in animated form! I still have high hopes that we'll still see Captain Marvel (Shazam) make an appearance in JLU before all is said & done! I still wanna see Hawkman again! I love the Flash & hope he appears in a full episode soon as well but I've seen him during the 1st & 2nd seasons & now I wanna see Black Canary & others we haven't seen yet in action! I thought it was awesome to finally see the Question in animated form & for an entire episode & not just a quick 3 sec cameo. Who knows? Maybe this JLU will spin off into an "Adventures of the DCAU series" where we'll see even more of our favorite heroes & villians in brand new adventures! IMOP I think you all should just watch the entire season of JLU before bashing it & saying it sucks! 5 freakin episodes is not enough to judge a whole season by!WOW, I agree with virtually every word and YES SHAZAM evidently DOES make an appearance at some point, I'm guessing in the finale somewhere.

And YES, moving and getting cable hooked up is a massive pain in the ass, in 2004 it should be a lot faster and smoother than that. There is absolutely nothing worse than moving and you're favorite show whips out the new eps during the process and you end up missing a half season and you're not ever sure when the repeats will show up.

[Singularity]

I'll like to point out that Shazam isn't his name; it's Captain Marvel. Shazam is merely the name of the wizard that granted Capt. his powers and is the magic word to activate the mentioned powers.

[Wayman Tisdale]

I'll like to point out that Shazam isn't his name; it's Captain Marvel. Shazam is merely the name of the wizard that granted Capt. his powers and is the magic word to activate the mentioned powers.C'mon, I'm well aware of that, it just rolls off the tongue easier and it's cooler. I've always thought they should call him that anyway, it's about time. EVERYBODY almost thinks that's his name, it's snappier, cooler and his comic is always called that and the various old shows as well were titled "SHAZAM". It's easy to see why ANYONE would get confused.

I think the character is exceptionally cool, as his costume(one of the CLASSIC comic book costumes of all time). I just wish they would officially find a way to call him "SHAZAM". It's funny people just don't know what to call him for years and years, but most of the time we call him "SHAZAM" even though that's actually the wizards name. Let's just all face it, "SHAZAM" is a cooler name and we basically reflexively call him that whether we know better or not. I STILL do and I know better.

P.S. Oh yeah, thanks for the tip GMahler, I had a feeling it wouldn't be that immediate for some reason. But YES he is long overdue for the DCAU treatment maybe more than anyone.

[Mister Intensity]

If you don't like a show after three episodes or five episodes or however many episodes you should stop watching it and find other things to do with your time. Most shows don't radically change that much within a season (between seasons is another story) and if you sample a few episodes and find that you don't like it then obviously that show is not working for you. While I don't think it is fair to judge a show by its pilot, after watching a few more episodes you should have an opinion about a show. I don't think its necessary to watch an entire series to determine whether or not you like it. Why waste your time watching every episode when you realize by episode four or five that the show is not worth your time?

I watched the first three episodes of Birds of Prey, realized that it wasn't for me and decided never to watch it again. I like superhero shows but if a show isn't entertaining for me on any level why waste my time?

Of course you should make that determination after actually watching a show.

Mister Intensity

[sKorpia]

I guess the difference here is that the first 5 episodes were pretty much meandering episodes. They actually don't set tone or story or anything and because they have precious little to offer in animation (traditional or experimental), they have a high chance of skewing the perception of the rest of the show. From the sound of it (I'm avoiding all spoilers so I don't know), the main thrust of the season is what people are calling a "subplot" but what feels like gearing up for a major plot since it's already been so heartily pushed off the ground with "Fearful Symmetry", which in turn is actually riding off of a good amount of momentum from "Legacy". So the potential for tone difference and seriousness of content is huge between the fluff episodes and the arc episodes. Unfortunately, the fluff episodes weren't all that enjoyable whereas the arc episodes could be.

I'd say the 5 episode rule is good if you're starting on a show that already has a firm direction in place and knows what it wants to accomplish right from the starting gate. I've not gotten that impression from JLU; it feels like it's been treading water for a couple weeks.

[Crimson]

I just wish they would officially find a way to call him "SHAZAM". It would be kind of awkward to have a name that he himself could never use, for fear of turning back into Billy Batson.

"Thanks for saving my life, mister. What's your name?"

"I can't tell you, or I'll turn into a little boy."

[Mister Intensity]

My take is that they were intending to do more of an anthology then decided that it was cool to to put in an overarching episode arc while writing "Fearful Symmetry." "Initiation" did do good job of setting the tone for what they have originally intended but some of the episodes that followed didn't really do a good job of following up what was established in that episode.

Going by production order, FTMWHE could have taken place anytime during the first two seasons; "Hawk and Dove" was a clumsy attempt at writing an episode around the premise established in "Initiation"; "Fearful Symmetry" was when they decided to start tying everything together and offer an explaination justifying the anthology idea (although it doesn't really need a justification beyond what's offered in "Initiation" but I'm interested to see where its going). "Kid's Stuff" was an episode that could have taken place anytime in season two. "This Little Piggy," is the only episode other than "Fearful Symmetry" that's a natural outgrowth of what was established in "Initiation." "This Little Piggy" and "Fearful Symmetry" were the first two episodes that really clicked with me. Those two episodes, although dramatically different, best illustrates the range of stories that could be told on JLU. Although I do hope they handle the underlying story arc organically and not just tye everything together with the "wouldn't this be kewl" approach.

Having JLU take a more anthology approach is a good idea, I just hope it won't get bogged down by the ambitiousness of the story arc they are aiming for.

Mister Intensity

[Wayman Tisdale]

It would be kind of awkward to have a name that he himself could never use, for fear of turning back into Billy Batson.

"Thanks for saving my life, mister. What's your name?"

"I can't tell you, or I'll turn into a little boy."Hahahhahhaha:D , That's a really good and astute point, I still wish they'd call him that anyway.

[awh1978]

My take is that they were intending to do more of an anthology then decided that it was cool to to put in an overarching episode arc while writing "Fearful Symmetry." "Initiation" did do good job of setting the tone for what they have originally intended but some of the episodes that followed didn't really do a good job of following up what was established in that episode.
I think the writers just felt that a bunch of mostly stand alone episodes wouldn't have quite the same impact as an epic arc. They didn't do it with any of the Batman series', but it worked in Superman with the Darkseid arc. The same thing can work here, and I look forward to it. That being said, I think it would be a mistake for them to have most episodes deal with it: the way STAS handled their Darkseid arc was great. Keep it there, but don't let it overwhelm everything else, since it would all seem insignificant compared to the threat Darkseid represents.

I also think that even the episodes that have generated the most criticism are still to be commended for trying to move the core characters forward. It's not like they've made an entire episode that just has your standard hero vs. villain fight. Even if you don't agree with the development, the characters featured aren't static, and for this the writers deserve a lot of credit. Of course, I still think MM could be doing more than joining the list of bald sci-fi guys who spend most of their time just giving orders (Gen Hammond, Skinner). Hopefully this will be rectified later on.