Any exclusively TAS fans out there?

[TerryMcGuiness]

I'm a long time comic reader and an artist and have loved superheroes my entire life. But with the trends that have been going in modern comics over the past 10 or more years and that seem to be continuing into the forseeable future, I became extremely disenchanted with it which is why I felt the work of Paul Dini and Bruce Timm was such a godsend.

Even in instances of censorship, while I didn't like the *reason* they had to do it, I found myself glad they did in many instances. Being under the gun actually made some of their work have to spin in ways that made it better for its subelty. In many cases more dramatic than they would've been if they'd been able to take it all the to the extreme.

Basically, I'm posting this thread to know if there is anyone else out there who currently or has always basically stuck soley with TAS when looking for a good Batman or Superman or JL fix.

Also it'd be cool to know why. What about the series enchants you more than say the comics or films? If you've never gone to the regular mainline comics at all, how come?

Basically, why do you like TAS and/or what makes the difference to you as a fan. What does TAS have that Batman or Superman or Justice League have in their mainline comics incarnations or versions in other media don't?

I'll even post my reasons at some point.

Thanks for reading. :)

[Calhoun07]

I am an exclusive TAS fan myself. While I have read Superman and Batman comics in the regular DC universe in the past, currently, and for the forseeable future, I only get my Superman and Batman stories from the TAS universe. And it will be the same with the JL cartoon.

Why? Simply because I feel the TAS universe sticks closer to the original feel of the characters without being old fashioned or out of date. There's not all this continuity mess to worry about, and most important, if I read a TAS universe comic, that's about it. It might continue into next month's issue, but I am not required to buy 8 more comic books that I don't want if I want to follow a story line. And that's the biggest thing that turns me off of the DC Universe comics. Too many damn cross overs and criss crossing story lines. I read comics for leisure, and it just is too much of a pain in the butt to try to keep up with all these different story lines they got running thru the regular Batman and Superman comics.

[Karkull]

First off, the characters look a whole lot better.

Second, there's not a ton of backlogged continuity. Things are simpler.

Third, the creators take liberties with the characters designs and origins. Also, they're not comic writers, thus they aren't married to comic book continuity.

Fourth, the field is wide open--here there aren't hundreds of lesser characters around to bog everything down, which makes the few existing superheroes that much super in their absence.

Finally, this is the iconic versions of the characters--distilled from almost 60 years of history. We can have the mostly classic 1940s Superman fighting a mostly 1980s Lex Luthor or a "designed from scratch" Brainiac. These are the best versions of the characters.

[Calhoun07]

The more I think about it, the more I wish DC had used Timm's designs to relaunch Batman and Superman in the DCU instead of the directions they took.

[The Mad Hatter]

My interest in Batman got kicked off with the animated series. I look at the comics from time to time, but for the most part I just stick with the animated continuity.

[Joker85]

I like them both, for different reasons. TAS timeline has had some EXCELLENT stories in the past, but I feel they have become too simplistic lately. Hopefully, the JL adventures will be better!:)

[TerryMcGuiness]

Well I'm speaking of the shows themselves as well as the adventures comics.

Basically, why do you prefer the TAS way of doing these iconic characters to mainline or movies?

What does the entire TAS thing (for severe lack of a better term) have over its counterparts? What makes the difference?

So far these responses have been great. Thanks guys.

[Calhoun07]

They just keep it simple, stick to the basics, and bring out the qualities of the characters that made them popular in the first place.

[Beyond Batman]

For those of you who are only advocates of the animated series comics, I'm sure you guys understand, we wouldn't have the animated series if it wasn't for the DCU mainstream comics. Also, all of the the greatest stories from TAS stem from the DCU version of Batman.

I'll say again, I'm a big fan of the animated series. The animated version is the trimmed, censored, user-freindly version of Batman. Not saying that it's not great work, it's just great work being re-told in a different perspective. I think TAS is awesome. Batman's story has been retold, refined, and reinvented over, and over, and over again throughout Batman's history.

By idolizing Timm's style, and ignoring any of the maistream titles, to me, sounds like you guys are really missing out. There are some great Bat writers and artists currently in progress. Before you guys compare the DCU to the animated series, give the mainstream comics a chance and some patience. You can't expect to learn all about Batman's trials and tribulations. overnight.

By the way, for those of you who complain about too many crossovers, do you guys ever read any of the crossovers? In the case of Our Worlds at War, I only bought the Bat titles and the storyline made perfect sense to me without having to buy the other titles. I've learned (with most crossovers) that you can continue to read just the Bat titles without having to buy the other crossed-over titles. The reason being, is because the issue you buy only concerns that issue, and that character, and how the whole crossover is affecting THAT charcter. That's what I've noticed in most cases. Having it continue into other stories just gives you a better idea of the bigger picture. And if you choose to ignore those other storis, then you can, still understanding the story.

If we didin't have crossovers, I don't think great stories like Knightfall, No Man's Land, etc. would've been possible. To limit those stories to one title, I'm sure we'd STILL be reading No Man's Land today because it would take soooooooo long to cover all that territory.

If crossovers discourage you, just buy the TPB when it comes out, if you're interested in saving money. Crossovers shouldn't stop you from reading any of the mainstream titles. They're not as intimidating as you may think. As far as crossovers go, you can choose to ignore them, buy the TPB version, or buy all the single issues.

This past year has been an exception. There were a lot of crossovers this year.

Don't judge a book by it's cover. Or in this case, don't judge a comic by its crossover. :rolleyes:

[Maxie Zeus]

Impossible to add more to what calhoun and others have already said, or to say it better.

But I will have to admit that I am not a comics fan. There is some wonderful stuff out there: "Mad Love" and TDKR and "Batman: Black and White." And anything Tim Sale draws.

But I'm probably with Terry McGuiness on the contemporary stuff: A little complexity, and grittiness, and "realism" goes an awful long way. So when I do go looking for the comics, I go straight for the animated titles.

[sulimo]

For me, I am for the most part only a watcher of the Batman and Superman shows. And the main reason I'm not a regular reader is simply the cost and number of comics.

Both Batman & Superman have 3-4 titles each which are to one degree or another intimately linked together. Thus, I just picled up the collected editions of both depending on my wallet and my interest in that particular story at the time.

Still, I have been a regular reader of JLA since the most recent series started.

[Supermon]

I read the comics from time to time, but
what really attracts me to the animated universe is consistancy.
With very few exceptions the animation and storylines are always top-notch. With the comics you never know when a guest artist with some skewed idea of art is going to step in and put some fuzzy looking Batman on paper. I have trouble enjoying a story if the art looks like crap.

[Calhoun07]

I recognize the importance of the DCU version of Batman and Superman in influencing the animated universe characters. And I would be more willing to pick up more DCU titles if it weren't for comics being so freaking expensive these days. All things considered, that's why I still stick with the animated titles. Fewer comics to buy, story lines are something I can read in one sitting and treat more casually, and they fit into my budget easier.

[optimal321]

Well, it's TAS for the most part to me. These shows have pretty much been my first exposure to Batman and Superman. I too, read the comics every now and then, but i don't have any place near me to buy them from. Or money to buy them. Or motivation, really, since i can just pop in one of my TAS tapes when i'm in the mood. But that's not saying given the opportunity i wouldn't read the comics.

[TerryMcGuiness]

"For those of you who are only advocates of the animated series comics, I'm sure you guys understand, we wouldn't have the animated series if it wasn't for the DCU mainstream comics. Also, all of the the greatest stories from TAS stem from the DCU version of Batman. "


As I think I firmly established in the begining post, I have been a comics reader for a long time. I'm **more** than aware of where Batman comes from. I've been reading comics and superheroes since I was 5 and am now in my mid 20's.

However, many of the greatest stories used from the comics in TAS are from the older comics, basically before everyone decided Frank Millers vision of a drooling psychotic was the only way to do Batman. Batman does not begin and end with Miller. Plus, in TAS you're able to get these stories minus alot of the BS.

Also, while I do admire Bruce Timms style its not at the expensive of all else. Again, I've read comics for a long time and am an artist myself. I just believe he's been the best Batman artist of the past 10-15 years and Paul Dini the best Batman writer. They capture the true essence and spirit of the character and they realize that theres more to it than just a nut in a costume with grim n' gritty clenched teeth and psychosis.

While Millers work is a valid take and did influence the animated series, with TAS you get it all without the BS. You also dont have to deal with every writer trying to be Frank Miller or turning it into NYPDBatman.

Also, I dont subscribe to the much entrenched since Miller viewpoint that Batman is nuts. Batman is story about strength forged from great sadness, not psychosis. Bruce Wayne is a haunted man, certainally obsessed and unorthadox but he's also an extremely intelligent figure.

To say he's nuts for making this commitment is almost like saying a monk is insane for adhearing to a life of poverty and celebacy.

For all the much vaunted and touted "realism" :rolleyes: of the mainline comics, the TAS Batman/Bruce Wayne is much, much, more human to me. TAS knows how to properly balance the fantasy and the realism and in my mind the entire thing comes off more "real" as a result.

(more on all this when I do my own "reasons why" post later.)

[Tim Drake]

I love the TAS Series. I feel the stories are compelling to me and I like the fact that issues or episodes of TAS can stand alone. However I must admit that while I don't read DCU reguarly there is so awsome stuff out there. I loved No Man's Land, The Dark Knight Returns, and Kingdom Come. These aren't TAS titles but they're spectacular. In fact the pacing in some of these comics is similar to TAS. The strained relationship between Bruce and Supes in Kingdom Come very much reminded me of The New Batman Superman Adventures.

Oh and I just started reading Legends of the Dark Knight. Reading that series feels so much like watching an episode of BTAS with a new artist. I really love the book. The way a fight scene or chase scene is layed out is so reminiscent of BTAS.

Anywho I think my point is that over the past few years because of TAS I am now primarily a DC fan. I really think the regular DCU comics are great and have similar aspects to TAS with less censorship on violence and promisicuity. I still love TAS more though. What I realize that I've pretty much grown out of is Marvel. I used to read Xmen all the time but now its just old....

[kid_flash]

Okay, first off, don't diss Frank Miller. Not only is his work awesome, but we probably wouldn't have BTAS without him (and if we did, it'd be a LOT different).

And not everything is influenced by Miller. Sure, a lotta creators look up to him and are big fans of his stuff, but not everything is Miller-esque. In fact, diversity is the key. GOTHAM KNIGHTS, while not everyone likes Grayson's stuff, is really strong character analyzation. DETECTIVE COMICS is more about Batman as a person (GK has some of that, but it focuses more on how the Bat-family interacts). BATMAN is really about the legend, and is probably the closest there is to BTAS. Yes, the foundation was set by Frank Miller, but he's not looking over the shoulder of the writers, both literally and figuratively.

As for crossovers....Batman hasn't had a crossover since Officer Down (which was one of the best stories I've read this year). All the titles go their seperate ways until January, with the Bruce Wayne: Murderer? and Bruce Wayne: Fugitive stories (one leads into the next, looks to be amazing stuff). And since December's a jumping-on point, and the story starts in a 10 cent comic. And from what I've heard, there will be a TPB coming for that.

As for crossovers in the Superman books, they stopped that after OWAW (which, as a Superman story and not a DCU event, was incredible). Now they too go their seperate ways for six months at the least.

So if you want some stuff that isn't about an insane Batman, check out the Bat-titles. Read DETECTIVE COMICS #757 (best single Bat-comic of the year besides GK #13) and tell me that isn't a human Batman. And Bruce Wayne? Granted, the comic version really focuses on the playboy side of Bruce (laugh-out-loud at time), but read Ed Brubaker's BATMAN (especially the Deadshot story, can't remember the issues but it's a two-parter with Deadshot on each cover) for an extremely human Bruce Wayne, not to mention Batman himself.

Mainstream rules. No BS as long as you actually care enough to get into them.

[TerryMcGuiness]

"Okay, first off, don't diss Frank Miller. Not only is his work awesome, but we probably wouldn't have BTAS without him (and if we did, it'd be a LOT different). "

I'm entitled to my opinion, and I did acknowledge the importance of his work on TAS in my post thank you very much.

Please try to stay on topic this is a thread for people who prefer TAS and to tell us why they do.

[James Harvey]

There were a few times when I found myself preferring the animated books over the mainstream. During the poorly written KNIGHTSQUEST saga, I found the animated books a great escape from the mainstream books. I found the KNIGHTQUEST issues to be just boring beyond belief. But when things started to pick up in the books, mainstream took over. And then, right after CATACLYSM, the book sank into another rut with AFTERSHOCK. I found alot of those stories to be repetitive, with Batman crying and feeling upset. Again, I found myself escaping into the animated titles. It was half & half during NO MAN'S LAND. Some arcs were good, some bad. But once NML ended, I found the mainstream books to be consistenatly better than the animated book. This is also around the time Peterson took over the book and made it unreadable for adults basically.

Currently, the mainstream books blow away the animated books. SUPERMAN ADVENTURES is a pale imitation of itself, as is GOTHAM ADVENTURES. I recommend any Batman fan to pick up DETECTIVE COMICS for some of the best stories Batman has seen in years, including the animated titles. Ditto with SUPERMAN and ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN. Blows the current animated SUPERMAN ADVENTURES book out of the water. As for JUSTICE LEAGUE ADVENTURES....well...I think that book will easily top the crumbling JLA book.

[Calhoun07]

What do you think of the new creative team coming in on JLA?

[TerryMcGuiness]

I agree with the assesment of the current state of the animated titles.

Again, the question is more the preference of the animated approach to the characters and such over their movie and maintream counterparts rather than animated title vs. mainline titles.

(Though truthfully, at least the Adventures book gives us Tim Levins art to look at. This guy is seriously underrated and over criticized. IMO.)

[kid_flash]

First off, Terry, I meant that you were dissing Frank Miller on unfounded reasons. Sure, at times, he shows Batman as insane, but that isn't the basis behind all his stories. His most popular story, The Dark Knight Returns, did show a pretty insane Batman, but that was an Elseworlds showing Bruce when he's old and bitter (a different version of Batman Beyond in many ways). But with Batman: Year One, Frank Miller's mainstream story, Bruce was shown as very sane and level-headed, keeping cautious of what he does.

And second, don't single me out. I'm not the only one on this thread who is arguing in favor of mainstream. Both Beyond Batman and DG are in favor of mainstream, and you're not telling them to stay on topic.

And again, it's really easy to get into mainstream, I don't know why everyone makes it out to be so complicated and confusing. I know it's that way at first, but reading really is knowledge in comics. And if you want to go in the easy way, there are hundreds of web sites out there with information. But I know from experience that you can get into mainstream by just reading the books (December's issues and the 10 cent comic will be a big help as I've said), especially since you watch BTAS.

[sulimo]

Originally posted by calhoun07
What do you think of the new creative team coming in on JLA?

Who is the new creative team? I must say I'm still enjoying JLA (although perhaps a bit less than when it first started), so I doubt (unless it gets really bad with the new team) I'd read JL Adventures instead.

[Beyond Batman]

Let me first begin this reply by saying, I think it's interesting how TerryMcguiness began this thread. I think this thread was a respnose to my "How many of you actually read any of the mainstream Bat comics?" thread that gained winning support for the mainstream comics opposed to the animated comics. I think this is also a response to TerryMcguiness' "We can save the TAS comics!" where he blatently came out and said mainstream comics are "BS, crap and confusing."

I know these threads aren't a contest, but I think we all know why TerryMcguniess began this thread (read them if you haven't already) and why he insists on only having "exclusive TAS fans" replying rather than us mainstream Bat readers.

Other thing too, you and I are in the same age group so I know we can speak maturely, so let's put our anger aside. We're respecting your opinion, please do so for us. We can argue and still be mature about it.

On to my reply. You continuously say that a lot of the mainstream comics contain "BS" that the animated series doesn't have. To me, it sounds like you're currently not reading any of the current Bat comics. You thinking it's "BS," I'm sure you wouldn't think to pick up a comic that's not inline with the animated series due to your weighted bias and skepticsm. Afterall, you did claim the past ten years of Bat comics did nothing for you to spark your interest. Although I beg to differ on that note, I can understand why you wouldn't pick up a comic book today.

So here's a question for you that you still haven't answered nor clarified. I know you've read comics since you were five yrs. old but what comics are you reading now? An easier question, what's the last Bat book you read in the mainstream comics up to date? And what "BS" content is in there that you don't like? I'm just curious? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you do read the comics and in your opinon think they're just not up to par with the animated series. Please explain to me why, I'm having a hard time understanding what you think is so "BS" about mainstream comics and why you continuously attack them. BTW, TerryMcguniess, stop thinking we're trying to strike a nerve with you. Rest assure, we're not attacking your opinion, we're simply responding to what you've said. With every action, expect a reaction.

Sounds to me like someone hates Frank Miller. :eek: You've used him for every reason why you think mainstream comics aren't as good as TAS. I happen to think his work is awesome, yet I don't idolize him the same way you seem to do so for Timm, Dini, and Co. Also, there are many writers out there that don't use Miller's format for a "psychotic" Batman. If you think otherwise, please name a few of them?

Here's how I see it. The mainstream comics go out on a limb and throw the stories out there. Some work is great, some work is not so great. It's either hit or miss! That's how writing works, and the only true test to see if it's great work is the reaction you get from the readers. What the animated series does, they extract all the great writing, throw away the fat, and what are you left with??? A great Batman Animated Series. It's a formula you can't go wrong with (except maybe for "Critters." What a horrible episode). :rolleyes:

So I can see why some of you would prefer TAS over mainstream comics. Because you get all the great stuff without the "fat." But if you really want to stay ahead of the game, achieve greater detailed knowledge of Batman's universe, and see the raw power of Batman's awesomeness, I recommend you read the mainstream Bat comics too. If (this goes for all you non-mainstream comic readers) you don't read the mainstream books, don't completely ignore them (especially if your a big Bat fan) simply because TAS is great work. Batman has more room to "stretch his legs" in the mainstream books compared to TAS.

I can tell you this much, you don't have to worry about Warner Brothers executives editing, cutting, censoring, limiting, or canceling comics like we've seen, all to often, for the animated series. That's for sure.

FYI: If money or access to comics is an issue for you, I completely understand, so don't think this response is pointing at you, this is for people that choose to ignore the mainstream books due to skepticism.

[Clayface]

As usual, I agree with everything Beyond Batman has said. Its actually starting to creep me out how much the two of us agree! ;)

Just one thing I wanted to add here - my view of the animated titles vs the mainstream ones. Personally, I love both, but, as you know, I prefer the mainstream ones. For me, its sort of like reading a classic book vs reading the cliff notes. You can get the gist of the story and all the major events from the cliff's notes (the animated titles), but you're missing a lot of the subtlety and detail that makes the book (the mainstream titles) such a classic .

[Maxie Zeus]

I'm moving this over to the BS&B board, since it focuses almost entirely on Batman.

A lot of heat is getting generated. Play nice.

[Failure]

I stick to mostly the TAS continuity. I've read the Batman titles that everyone's heard about, Death in the Family, the Knightfall sequence, etc. And I even tried to collect for a while, I was into mostly Spiderman, but then I stopped for a little bit, and the next thing I knew there were clones all over the place. That was a bit disenchanting. I also disliked how a lot of the comics were so connected, like 8 issue series and I'd be missing an issue or two and wouldn't know what was going on. Or how sometimes, you had to know what was going on in crossovers, to know the current storyline. So I've stuck to TAS, because of the streamlined storytelling. I admit I'm not a diehard fan.

As for JLA, I know very little about them, so all my knowledge will be garnered from the animated series.

[Karkull]

I can't stand that Superman and Batman have 4+ titles a month. Lesser characters (like the Punisher) have crashed and burned because of overexposure, but the World's Finest duo seem to be immune to this--even though it feels that they are rushed for four different story ideas a month. Or worse, they saddle all four books with one big story. Well, what if I only liked Adventures of Superman? Would I have to buy all three other titles to get a single story?

Meanwhile, there's been only one Batman show and one Superman show. The stories are all self-contained and you don't need to watch another show to get the whole story.

[kid_flash]

Well, the Bat-titles are all seperate until Murderer? and Fugitive. And the Super-titles are seperate for awhile. So, yeah, if you just like AOS, you'd be fine.

[ZorBrak]

::Pops out from under his little rock looks around makes sure no one has any fire arms on them:: raises hand, yeah I just like the animated series for the most part so I guess I'm pretty exclusive, since I always considered the TAS the "real" batman storyline, of course thats just my preference and opinion, I began watching the show when I was very young, I beleive I was still in kindergarden or maybe the begining of first grade? (it began in 92 right?) either way, I watched the adam west show as a very young kid when i was a toddler so i just thought this "new" take on batman in TAS was really cool, of course my stupid child brain couldnt fathom that TAS was the accurate batman representation until I was a little older, but yeah I think the comics are cool and all, No Man's Land was good, and I remeber reading some Knight Fall novel in junior high, no offense to the mainstream comics or their fans, but I'll stick with my animated universe its where I began both plots are cool I just sorta like animated a very small bit better, the only thing I really dont like about the comic is that poor barbera is in a wheel chair, OK im done ranting ::crawls back under rock:: bye bye :p

-wow I have had to edit this thing for really stupid stupid typos 3 times now :eek:-

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Karkull
I can't stand that Superman and Batman have 4+ titles a month. Lesser characters (like the Punisher) have crashed and burned because of overexposure, but the World's Finest duo seem to be immune to this--even though it feels that they are rushed for four different story ideas a month. Or worse, they saddle all four books with one big story. Well, what if I only liked Adventures of Superman? Would I have to buy all three other titles to get a single story?

Meanwhile, there's been only one Batman show and one Superman show. The stories are all self-contained and you don't need to watch another show to get the whole story.

If TV stations tried pulling what DC pulls, requiring you to watch five different shows different days of the week to follow one story, those five shows would be ratings losers. It really makes me wonder why DC thinks this is a good idea, tying all these different titles together with one story line. I want to read Superman and Action Comics and I want to read Batman and Detective Comics, but I refuse to buy either title because it's inevitable I will read either the beginning of a story or the end of one in either title, and I refuse to throw my money away on comic books that I won't read because I am missing parts of the story.

I think DC would do themselves a favor to cut these books back to the core titles, the four titles I mentioned above. AND NO CROSSING STORY LINES BETWEEN THOSE! You want to tell a story like No Man's Land but it would take too long in two Batman books per month? Then collect it together as a graphic novel or a series of graphic novels and leave the comics for more self contained story lines. I actually think by simplifying things and making it easier for newbies to jump on board, DC would generate more readers. If they keep doing what they've always done, then it's no wonder why Marvel dominates the top 20

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by sulimo


Who is the new creative team? I must say I'm still enjoying JLA (although perhaps a bit less than when it first started), so I doubt (unless it gets really bad with the new team) I'd read JL Adventures instead.

As of issue 61, Joe Kelly takes over as writer and Doug Mahnke is the artist.

[Beyond Batman]

Simplicty versus complexity. That seems to be the biggest factors. Not to mention crossovers and costs. So if mainstream comics were more linear, less costly, and did away with crossovers, would the mainstream Bat titles catch more of your attention?

By the way, those of you who don't like the mainstream comics or just don't read them, how old are you guys? If you don't want to reveal your age, just say what age group you fall in (e.g. teens, twenties, etc.) I'm just curious. I remember posting a while back, asking how old people were on this board, and I remember the oldest guy was in his early thirties.

The reason I ask, the animated titles exist to sell to the younger generation. That's why they're less violent and less complex. They're even $0.25 - $0.50 cheaper. In retrospect, I can see how mainstream titles are geared towards a more mature audience, and how they can be intimidating to younger kids. I guess us old folks need complexity in our reading. I'm 22.

With all of my rants speaking on behalf of the mainstream comics, I want to reassure you guys I'm a huge animated series fan. I was about 13 when I discovered BTAS. It was then I discovered the Bat fan inside of me. The animated series was my stepping stone. I feel I matured into another level by becoming a dedicated reader of the mainstream Bat comics and by viewing Batman to be more than what the animated series offers.

[ZorBrak]

My only problem my only REAL problem is the crazy crossover stuff that can happen in comics sometimes, and that earth 2 thing, i beleive it was like one age batman met another (hey if i got this wrong im stupid sorry) and i cant stand stuff like that, thats why i prefer most things i watch and read to stay away from time travel/alternate dimension stuff, i guess im wrong in saying simplicity over complexity, i just dont like some aspects of the mainstream and the radical changes like barbera in a wheel chair, comissioner gordon ritired, if the animated universe had the comic's more complex and more violent feel I'd really like it but I still prefer it to comics, "to bad we can't mix and match", oh yeah and Im 16 in 3 months since BB was wondering how old we were

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07

Then collect it together as a graphic novel or a series of graphic novels and leave the comics for more self contained story lines. I actually think by simplifying things and making it easier for newbies to jump on board, DC would generate more readers.

Are you sure about that? Sales don't seem to say so - simple one issue stories like those presented in the animated titles just don't traditionally sell as well as longer more complex stories. And lets face it, comics are a business like any other - they're out to make the money.

Yes, simple linear stories are good for getting new readers in - and once or twice a year DC does this to let new readers jump on. Then they go back to the more complex storylines. To be honest, there are only so many short one or two issue stories that can be done.

You've got to keep in mind that comics and TV are very different media. While you can tell a good story in a half hour on TV, its not as easy to do in the comics. Each comic is more like a chapter in a novel - you need to get all the chapters to follow the total story. That's what I like about comics, and what keeps me collecting. When they stick to short one or two issue stories, you just get a lot of rehashed material like we're seeing in the current animated Batman title, and very little depth or anything to hold the interest of the long time fans.

[Calhoun07]

If you had just two titles, Batman and Detective Comics, and got rid of the other titles, why would you have to abandon longer story lines and confine those titles to one or two part stories? I just suggested the graphic novel idea for longer stories to satisfy the complaint that long stories like No Man's Land couldn't be told in two Batman titles, or it would take too long to tell. I am all for complex, long story lines, I just don't feel I need to buy 8 Batman titles a month to get it all.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07
I just suggested the graphic novel idea for longer stories to satisfy the complaint that long stories like No Man's Land couldn't be told in two Batman titles, or it would take too long to tell.



Well, the problem with that is, again, sales. Graphic novels just aren't going to sell as well as the monthly titles for a number of reasons. People are more likely to shell out $2-3 a week to get the story in installments than plop down the full $20-40 for a graphic novel.




I am all for complex, long story lines, I just don't feel I need to buy 8 Batman titles a month to get it all.

But the point you keep seeming to ignore is that you don't need to collect all the parts to follow the storyline - this is what Beyond Batman has said numerous times in this very thread. For the most part, the crossovers take place in all the titles, but you don't need to collect every title to follow what's going on. And when there is a mega-crosssover where the story goes into another title, you can simply stop collecting during that crossover if you'd like - there's always plenty of warning that this sort of thing is coming up.

[James Harvey]

Definatly. The mainstream titles aren't as confusing and long winded as some people make them out to be. GOTHAM KNIGHTS is an easily acessible title, as is BATMAN. Sure, there are small changes (like Bruce having a bodyguard) but those are so easy to pick up on. I like the little changes now and again.

And (in a bad attempt to stay on topic) I like how there were changes between BTAS to TNBA. Catwoman was back to her criminal ways. Penguin went legit and got fingers. The only bad change? The Freezettes.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
GOTHAM KNIGHTS is an easily acessible title, as is BATMAN.


Another easily accessible title is Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight. Unfortunately, I really can't recommend this title, as the stories have been pretty terrible as of late.




The only bad change? The Freezettes.

Ugh! Don't remind me!

There are a few other changes that i think weren't all that great, but that's for another thread. I've done enough off topic talking in this thread already! ;)

[Joker85]

Clayface, BatmanBeyond, and DG, I agree!! Just because there are crossovers doesn't mean that you have to buy all of the titles for that month! Each title usually can self contain the story to where it's still enjoyable if you don't pick up the other titles. I had never read any of the Our Worlds At war stuff when I got the Harley Quinn tie in and I still enjoyed it and didn't really have to know anything about OWAW. It was still very enjoyable!! Crossovers really aren't as bad as some of you are making them out to be!

[James Harvey]

Speaking of multiple issues - I'm gonna try again to swerve this thread back on topic if that is at all possible now. One of the best comic stories was, without a doubt, the three part story that concluded Batman Adventures. The premise was a bit hammy, but it worked very, very nicely.

[kid_flash]

What more can I say in favor of mainstream that the four of us haven't mentioned (BB, Clayface, DG, and me, did I miss anyone?)? I'm 15, I've been reading mainstream (started with back issues, hit the monthly scene with JLA #27) since 1996. I do know how hard and confusing it is at first, but if you don't understand something, look on the Internet or wait it out. When I started (with Mark Waid's FLASH of all things), I was young enough to just ignore what I didn't understand, and figure it out later as I read more (heck, I still do that!).

[Joker85]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
Speaking of multiple issues - I'm gonna try again to swerve this thread back on topic if that is at all possible now. One of the best comic stories was, without a doubt, the three part story that concluded Batman Adventures. The premise was a bit hammy, but it worked very, very nicely.
Yeah I thought that was a perfect way to end Batman Adventures. The last seen with Catwoman and Batman is great!!:)

[Karkull]

What I liked most about those stories was that, finally, they gave Dr. Hugo Strange a better motivation than just money (true, he was only in one episode, but he was way cooler than Dr. Milo).

[James Harvey]

That is definatly a thing TAS did bettere than the book - Hugo Strange. Granted Strange had limited appearances, but Strange changed into this very troubled "lost soul" type of character. The 3 part BATMAN ADVENTURES ender made hima respectable villian.

[EarthX]

I've never been a Dixon fan, so he lost me long ago on Bats and The new band of Supes writers immediately fell off-track from the steady hands of Stern, Ordway, Jurgens and Simonson. Of course, this may have been due to the obvious "get darker" direction of the Editorial staff.

Supes and Bats are also went downhill fast when the "Clean artists" (Aparo, Ordway, Grummet,etc. ) were replaced by the mock-manga we see a lot nowadays. I've always felt the classic characters need a steady, even look to them because they are the entry points for younger readers and the "image-style" is often hard to follow with it bulky figures and cluttered panels.

I do buy lots of "mainstream universe" stuff though and even the darker stuff if its good enough (like Earth X or Thunderbolts).

I guess the big reason I like, and sitck with the TAS titles is: they finally got right when if comes to "young-readers" comics.

[virtual_alfred]

Ugh. Beyond Batman had to jump in with the old "btas is for young readers, DCU is for us smarter folks" refrain. Otherwise I would have left this thread alone.

I'm 37. I've been a Batman fan since I was 4. That means I've been a Batman fan longer than "beyond batman" has been alive. That covers the comics, the Adam West series, the 70s (with Batman running around in the day a lot), Frank Miller, all of the crappy live action movies, and the comics today.

I read several of the mainstream titles every month: Detective, Gotham Knights, Nightwing, Robin, Green Arrow. Sometimes Birds of Prey and Superman. Don't tell me I'm too young or don't know enough about Batman or don't understand the DC Universe enough to have a real opinion on what I like.

TAS is my favorite flavor. This is all going to come down to a matter of taste, you know. We might as well argue about whether or not Batman should have long or short ears on the cowl. There's simply no right or wrong answer.

Don't confuse detail with a good story. It can clutter the plot and the art.

TAS is my favorite because it's the distilled version. Because the universe isn't filled to the brim with 50+ years of heroes and villains, our heroes seem a little bit bigger. Because we don't have 50 years of continuity to unravel, the stories make a little more sense. (Earth II, Pre-crisis, Hawkman? Yeesh.) Because there are fewer crossovers and multi-part stories, each read is more satisfying.

I don't think the crossovers are a minor inconvenience, btw. I was really getting into Superman (I love McGuinness' art!) when the story split across four titles. Buy four or read none. I chose none. Not because of the money, but because I don't like the art or story-telling in the other books as much.

Nightwing's usually a great read -- and suddenly I've got to read about Joker Venom, which didn't quite fit the normal tone for the book.

The occasional crossover or multi-part story can make things better. But the mainstream comics overdo this, in my opinion. I can definitely understand the people who want to read 12-part stories.

BTW, I often don't buy the major stories until the TPB. I'm anxiously awaiting Officer Down. And sometimes I buy the comics AND the TPB.

Beyond Batman got one thing right (to match my taste) when he said "So if mainstream comics were more linear, less costly, and did away with crossovers, would the mainstream Bat titles catch more of your attention?"

Add less violent to the list. If TAS has the Joker beat Robin to a pulp with a crowbar, shoot and cripple Barbara Gordon, and blow away Gordon's wife", then I'll have to start looking for a new set of comics to read.

[Beyond Batman]

Thanks for your input virtual_alfred. You make many good points and I agree with a lot of what you said. Thirty plus years as a dedicated Batfan says a lot about you, and I respect that you've been a fan for all these years. However, I never said anything about mainstream comics being for "smarter folks." Where exactly did I give that message? I said they were more complex and involved, but never for the intellectually elite.

Also, I did say something about how BTAS is appealing to the younger generation, but didn't fail to mention, it's a great show for the long time dedicated fan. Maybe not in those exact words, but that's what I've said.

Another point, I'm defending my opinion. If threads can argue about who's better looking: Hawkgirl or Wonder Woman, then I think my opinion is just as valid. I do know this comes down to a matter of personal preference.

The message I'm conveying is to let Batfans know there's more to Batman than what Bruce Timm offers. I started out exclusively as a BTAS fan myself. My thirst for knowledge, of Batman, led to reading the main Bat titles and many other various Bat books. Being able to read other titles with other writers and artists is a great asset for Batman's creativity and longevity. Why do you think he's survived all these years? I believe that's why he remains to be one of the worlds greatest hero's. He's been re-invented and redefined since the late 1930's. I know Batman has been redesigned and retouched in the animated series, but c'mon, how much did he really change? He's nearly the same since 1992. But then again, that's how I like him in the animated series.

Never in my replys have I ever doubted the animated series. I've said time and again, I'll stand next to the animated series till it's bitter end (hopefully it will never end), but for fans who exclusively limit themselves to the animated series, there's a whole world of Batman you're missing out on.

Since this is mainly an animated themed message board, I knew my take on the mainstream titles would be opened for ridicule. I think a lot of you guys have very good opinions, whether you agree with me or not. But I still stand strongly next to the mainstream comic titles.

One last note. Virtual_alfred, you said,

"Because the universe isn't filled to the brim with 50+ years of heroes and villains, our heroes seem a little bit bigger. Because we don't have 50 years of continuity to unravel, the stories make a little more sense"

It doesn' take a genius to understand what's going on if you were to pick up a mainstream title or two. Aside from crossovers, all it takes is a bit of reading.

[The Game]

I don't read the comics too often, so does anyone wanna clue me in on what a TBP is?

[James Harvey]

"tpb" means tradepaperback. It collects various issues of a comic, usually for a story arc, like "OFFICER DOWN" (currently on stands) or DARK VICTORY (also on stands). tpb also collects rare issues and sought after issues.

[Beyond Batman]

Tradepaperbacks seem to be the best solution for comics if you're a "seasonal" reader. You save on money, you don't have to worry about missing an issue, and they're relatively easier to find. If you're lucky to find some of the hardcover versions, they sometimes include extra material.

[kid_flash]

TPBs have saved DC more than once. I really like the fact that almost everything gets collected, something that Marvel's finally catching on to.

[Domino]

I have to agree with most of Virtual_Alfred's points. I, too, am 37 and have essentially the same fan background as he. I do, however, enjoy the Batman mainstream titles, and have all of my life. I also think that Frank Miller's influence is overestimated most of the time. Before him, Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams brought us the character that we know and love from Batman the Animated Series. Their stories have been adapted far more often than anyone else's. I'm always curious, though, as to why those stories and creators are never credited in the titles.

[Robin's Cape]

Originally posted by calhoun07
I am an exclusive TAS fan myself. While I have read Superman and Batman comics in the regular DC universe in the past, currently, and for the forseeable future, I only get my Superman and Batman stories from the TAS universe. And it will be the same with the JL cartoon.

Why? Simply because I feel the TAS universe sticks closer to the original feel of the characters without being old fashioned or out of date. There's not all this continuity mess to worry about, and most important, if I read a TAS universe comic, that's about it. It might continue into next month's issue, but I am not required to buy 8 more comic books that I don't want if I want to follow a story line. And that's the biggest thing that turns me off of the DC Universe comics. Too many damn cross overs and criss crossing story lines. I read comics for leisure, and it just is too much of a pain in the butt to try to keep up with all these different story lines they got running thru the regular Batman and Superman comics.

Word for word, EXACTLY how I feel. I am sick and tired of the multiple-issue storylines that cross through half a dozen different titles. There is nothing like a simple story, eloquently told. I've been collecting comic books since 1983... and the TAS comics and Ultimate Spider-Man are the only super hero titles I am still buying. Current Marvel and DC continuity (if it EVER existed) sucks.

[James Harvey]

Originally posted by Robin's Cape


Word for word, EXACTLY how I feel. I am sick and tired of the multiple-issue storylines that cross through half a dozen different titles. There is nothing like a simple story, eloquently told. I've been collecting comic books since 1983... and the TAS comics and Ultimate Spider-Man are the only super hero titles I am still buying. Current Marvel and DC continuity (if it EVER existed) sucks.

Not all the Batman comics are these mutli issue arcs. WHy not pick up some Batman/Superman titles this month. All are self contained so new readers can jump on. This week's Detective Comics was an amazing read.

An dit wa sonly one issue.

[Beyond Batman]

"Current Marvel and DC continuity (if it EVER existed) sucks." Interesting choice of words said by Robin's Cape.

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but lately, Batman: Gotham Adventures has been running on a pretty bad track record. And they're not even doing crossovers or multiple storyarcs.

I agree with Dick Grayson, Batman this month is doing very well and there are some very interesting storylines going on thanks to the most recent story arc, Joker's Last Laugh.

Nightwing beats Joker to the brink of death because he was convinced Joker killed Tim. Tim had to physically stop Nightwing from killing the Joker.

Interesting? You can read Joker's Last laugh without buying the other titles. All it takes is reading the self titled "Joker: Last Laugh" issues 1-6. Or you can wait for the TPB. See, that wasn't so hard. Give some of these stories a chance, you shouldn't prejudge these stories just because they're "crossovers."

[MattL.]

Its still a universe that has Azrael, lame version of the Huntress, sewn-mouth ninja Batgirl, and crippled Barbra Gordon.

Plus really ugly art, and dour storytelling.

I grant you that the Adventures titles hve been sucking, but the primary matrix behind them (both on literal and visual levels and I dont just mean the Bruce Timm art style) is still far superior to modern mainline DCU.

[Beyond Batman]

"Plus really ugly art, and dour storytelling." Most of your gripes go as far back as Knightfall and No Man's Land. Azreal a product of Knightfall, Batgirl arising from NML, disabled Barbara Gordon from The Killing Joke... A boat load of landmarking events in Batman's life that you've pointed out as "dour.". Amazing how you're quick to judge these events as "dour story telling." ...unless you've failed to read these stories. If you indeed read those stories, I beg to differ on your opinion. I happen to like Batman's circle of allies, and they are each great assets to Batman's story.

If the animated titles so called "primary matrix" is far more superior than the mainstream titles (in MattL.'s opinion), why weren't mainstream titles like Batman or Detective (in their least popular moments) cut from production like Batman Adventures and Batman and Robin (past animated titles) when sales started dropping? Why are sales not up to par in Batman: Gotham Adventures, potentially on the brink of being cut? I say, because the animated series is meant to be an animated series, not a staple comic, how some exclusive-animated-series-fans view it. The animated titles are merely a supplement to the animated television series, and a way of promoting the show.

But if you're strictly comparing comics vs. comics, the mainstream titles blow the animated titles out of the water. You can complain about Azrael, Huntress, Batgirl, or Barbara Gordon's mainstream image all you want, but at least Batman, Detective, Gotham Knights, Legends, Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl etc. are still producing awesome work. Work that is far superior to the current state of Batman: Gotham Adventures. Compare how many popular storyarcs have risen out of mainstream titles compared to the animated titles. The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Batman Year One, NML, Death in the Family, Killing Joke, Officer Down, etc. are all products of the mainstream titles. Do any popular story arcs come to mind when you think of the animated comics? None, in my opinion.

MattL., I'm glad we're on the same page though, that Batman: Gotham Adventures has been producing extremely unsatisfying work, and is hardly worth the $1.99 +tax we're dishing out for it. So, if the animated titles "primary matrix" is far superior on a visual and literal level... well... judging by B:GA current state I don't think they're utilizing it. Now that's pretty "dour," dont you think? Pick up a mainstream book, you'll definitly get your money's worth.

[virtual_alfred]

My appologies to Beyond Batman for misreading his comments and getting carried away in my response.

At 37, I run into a lot of "batman is for kids" feedback, and when Beyond Batman even hinted that TAS is better for kids, it... it just drove me nuts. Anyone who's watched the origin of any villain in TAS knows how easy it is for ordinary people to just go nuts.

Interesting side-note: Less people gave me the Batman=Kids during the time that "The Dark Knight Returns" was first released, than do now.

Back when I read more science fiction, I generally preferred short stories over novels. There's something about concise stories that I really like. Just the essence, like fables. Just the good stuff.

Comics can have it both ways... short, concise stories in a single issue, but in-depth character development over time. Ivy, Freeze and others have been developed this way in TAS.

Last, but not least -- I'm still enjoying the stories and art in BGA a lot. I thought the Two-Face issue was very good, especially on page 11 with no dialog and page 20, where Nightwing's talking to himself.

Superman Adventures, Batman Beyond, JLA... these have mainly been disappointing.

[MattL.]

Well see thats part of my point. If the primary matrix of the animated series*were* being utilized to its full inherent potential then it would blow the mainstream comics away.

I cant help but feel like DC purposely downplays the animated titles because they dont want to admit that Bruce Timm and company did a 100% better job of rebooting the DCU than they did. IMO

[Beyond Batman]

As far as the television animated series is concerned, I agree, Timm, Dini and the rest of the animated crew did an awesome job bringing Batman back to his roots. They brought back a Batman that appealed to all of us in the animated sereis. But an animated series, is what it should remain to be. Especially if they continue to produce junk like they have been in B:GA. (the Two-Faced issue was pretty good... finally... could there be hope?) If the animated titles were at the calliber of what the animated series offered, maybe I wouldn't downgrade the animated titles so much.

Detective, crimefighter, playboy, intelligent, dark, mysterious, etc. Are you telling me the mainstrem Bat books don't do this? MattL.'s complaint was everyone around Batman, not Batman himself. BTW MattL, what mainstream Bat books have you read to make you form the opinion mainstream is so inferior to the animated titles? I'm curious, what mainstream Bat books do you read? Or do you judge a book by its cover? I assume you don't, but please share with us, what mainstream books do you read? I pick up (just to name a few) Batman, Detective, Legends, Gotham Knights, Nightwing, Robin regularly and I've been enjoying their current stories far more than I've been enjoying the animated title.

Please explain to me how the animated comics would blow the mainstream titles away? How can you deny any of the mainstream stories that have been so great? I know you enjoy Batman's simplicity in the animated titles, but you're not pointing anything out specifically, you're basically giving a rhyme without reason. Saying you don't like something because you don't like it isn't strong enough to form a debate about it. Your opinion is your opinion To be fair, I think I've given many reasons why the mainstream titles offer readers more about Batman than the animated titles.

Point out some memorable animated titles that revolutionized Batman? Tell me, what animated titled comic impacted your perspective on Batman? Which animated comic did you finish reading and said, "That's one heck of a story." Can you also point out where the animated titles have peaked, being better than the mainstream titles? I can name plenty for the mainstream titles, please point some out for me in the animated titles.

[James Harvey]

I don't think DC is underplaying anything. It befuddles the mind why some people think there's this big conspiracy to underplay any of the 'adventures' titles becuase they may be better than the mainstream. At one time, the animated titles did read better. Why? Becuase the creative crews on the mainstream comics were getting stale, and the animated series was just hitting it big. Now, it's the opposite. DC has amazing creative teams on the mainstream titles, and the animated books have been sucking pretty hard recently. It's not a conspirayc - it's the talent on the books. If Gotham Adventures gets a better creative team - then they'll be good again. As good as the mainstream? Possibly.

No book is inferior to each other - they just provide a different view. But if one books reads worse then the other - then it's the creative team, not whether or not it's an "animated" title.

[kid_flash]

DG hit it perfectly. Like he said, animated titles used to be pretty cool! But now, look who you've got on mainstream:

Greg Rucka, one of the best in the industry, with Steve Lieber about to start on pencils.

Ed Brubaker, another amazing crime writer, with SCOTT MCDANIEL doing pencils.

Devin Grayson, who absolutely loves the Bat-family and her writing proves it.

Chuck Dixon, who's been writing Bat-comics for YEARS.

And that's just the Bat-titles! Then there's JEPH LOEB AND ED MCGUINESS on SUPERMAN! Joe Casey and Weiringo on ADVENTURES! Joe Kelly writing ACTION COMICS!

And that's not looking at the DCU titles!

[James Harvey]

Let's not forget the awesome pencil work or Roger Robinson on Batman: Gotham Knights as well. DC has really pulled in some great talents on these books. Pete Woods is becoming the definite Robin artist, a slot that was once held by Tom Grummet. Catwoman has been saved from suckitude and is now a great read with spellbinding art to boot. Although if I have one title to complain about, it would have to be Nightwing's lousy penciller Trevor McCarthy. He just totally ruins the title. The titles are experiencing a great rejuvenation brough on by Rucka and Brubaker and with Gotham Central on the way, things are gonna get better.

But, believe me, I am looking forward to Burchett's 10 page return in Batman: Gotham Adventures #48.

[Domino]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
Although if I have one title to complain about, it would have to be Nightwing's lousy penciller Trevor McCarthy. He just totally ruins the title.

You aren't kidding. I've had fever dreams that looked better than that.